Judge John Hodgman - Emotion to Dismiss

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

Spencer and his wife, India, say that they both tend to humanize the items in their home. But now they are paring down their belongings as they’re planning a big move. Spencer wants to get rid of a particular rug. But India doesn’t, because it has owls on it. Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Thanks to reddit user u/w3H774m for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com! Check out the evidence at instagram.com/judgejohnhodgman!Judge John Hodgman’s Van Freaks Roadshow has begun! Visit vanfreaksroadshow.com for ticket links, other dates, cities, and more information! And SUBMIT YOUR CASES along the tour route at maximumfun.org/jjho!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, emotions to dismiss. Spencer brings the case against his wife, India. Spencer and India say they both tend to humanize the items in their home. Now they're paring down their belongings as they're planning a big move. Spencer wants to get rid of a particular rug, but India doesn't because it has owls on it. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. What do you do when you're wound up? asked Euterpe. Do you play that drum? No, said the child. uterpy. Do you play that drum? No, said the child. We used to dance, but now we walk, said the father. And behind us, an enemy walks faster. That's life, said the parrot. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Spencer and India, please rise and raise your right hands. You swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you, God or whatever. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that his rugs contain no animals? Still yes. I do. Judge Hodgman,

you may proceed. Actually, I have a small, a small lice ranch in my rugs. Just a small collection of louses and mites. India and Spencer, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment. And one of yours favors can either of you name the piece of culture that I quoted directly from as I entered this courtroom. Spencer, why don't you guess first? I have a guess. I'm going to guess the Velveteen Rabbit. Coming in hot, as they say coming in hot hot with scarlet fever that's exactly right 104 degrees you gotta burn all the toys that's how bad that scarlet fever is all right velveteen rabbit india looks like you got

scooped there yeah velveteen rabbit was my out-of-pocket guess, but I'm going to go with a version of the Nutcracker that tried to be edgy, but I don't actually know what that would be. Another toys come to life concept. A version of the Nutcracker that tried to be edgy. Of course, I'm here in Orland, Maine, in the studios of WERU. FM 89.9 on your FM dial or at WERU.org around the world. Joel Mann, our producer here in Maine. Do you have a guess? Pee-wee's Playhouse.

Pee-wee's Playhouse. Oh, boy. Still hurts. Still stings. That's a good guess, though. I like it. Love you, P it love you peewee well all very good guesses and i'll tell you this is a case about anthropomorphized creatures and throwing them on the junk heap and so the velveteen rabbit is the number one with a bullet top traumatic toy discarding book. I would have said all media until Toy Story

three came along. Then it got traumatic and inspirational. Number two, the red balloon. Little French boy falls in love with a sentient balloon and must stand by powerlessly as street urchins pelt the balloon with rocks and then stomp on it. Shown many a rainy day afternoon at the Heath Elementary School in Brookline, Massachusetts. And why? Simply to make us feel bad. I think Brave Little Toaster needs to be added to that list. By the time Brave Little Toaster came out, I was into an era when I could read fun, uplifting

stuff like 1984. Watership Down. Yeah. Oh, yeah. little poster came out i was into an era when i could read fun uplifting stuff like 1984 watership down yeah oh yeah right right watership down but we're talking about toys that are discarded and have inner lives and number three on the list for me judge john odgman russell hobans the mouse and his child you ever read that one spencer india the mouse and his Judge John Odgman. Russell Hoban's The Mouse and His Child. You ever read that one, Spencer or India? The Mouse and His Child. You know that one, Jesse. You know what I'm talking about, right? It's a great one.

Heartbreaking book. Beautiful and very sad book about a wind-up toy mouse and mouse child. It's a father mouse and a son mouse who are one wind-up toy. They hold a drum together in their hands facing each other and then they fall off the counter and break and then they're immediately thrown away and when they get to the junkyard they're

enslaved by a rat who runs a junkyard casino and then they escape but because they're joined by the hands facing each other as they walk they're trying by the hands facing each other, as they walk, they're trying to find some purpose in life. And one of them is always walking backwards because they face each other.

I still get freaked out by it. At some point they're menaced by a pack of voles. And I just remember being really scared by it. I think I needed to emotionally prepare myself a little better for this. I'm being reminded of all sorts of media I pushed out of my head. I'm very sorry to be re-triggering all of you. But in this courtroom, all the truth and trauma shall out as we get to the bottom of your dispute over an anthropomorphized rug and other things in your house. But if I understand, Spencer, you want to throw away in India, you say not so fast. Who who comes to this courtroom seeking justice?

I do, Your Honor. Spencer, what is the nature of your complaint? I am already emotionally traumatized by getting rid of my own stuff, and I would prefer that my wife not add her trauma onto mine. I see. And how is she adding her trauma onto yours? When I bring up getting rid of something, occasionally she will say that, oh, no, it was happy with us. Sometimes she will just look incredibly sad. She has a very good, incredibly sad face. And she'll just go, no, in a little voice.

She'll sort of walk around looking dejected for a little bit. All kinds of things. India, is your sad voice an imitation of what you imagine the object is feeling as it prepares to be thrown away? Sometimes it definitely is. But I think that's that's only when I'm really desperate, really trying to push it. I think sometimes it's just my own sad voice. Can you give me an example of a voice that you attributed to an object? I could give like a like a hypothetical. oh, I'm getting rid of this.

That might set you going. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Think of something in your house that you want to throw out. This isn't something I'm sincerely wanting to throw out, but I think it might work. I'm just thinking we don't need two creatures. We can pick. We can get rid of Baby or Halifax.

Which one would you rather go? No, they love each other yeah exactly like that you can't you can't separate them they're brothers what what are these creatures we're talking about um they actually are in one of our evidence uh photos we're not getting rid of these creatures i should make it very clear but they are in one of the evidence photos all right well let's go directly to the evidence what which photo am i looking at here um that would be our first photo look at this this is an example of your decorating sense um it is mainly to make it very clear that we are both maximalists right um this is actually

we have just we had just started packing when i took this photo so there is in fact a number of books that have been removed um baby and halifax are the two creatures that are poking their heads out over the top of the tv they're two monsters that i made okay these are um these are not living creatures they are no no no no no they kind of look like dark riffs on gremlins from the movie Gremlins. In fact, they kind of look like dark rifts on gremlins from the movie Gremlins, too, which is very dark. They're very scary and very cute. I've also included this photo to ingratiate myself with the court because barely visible on one of the bookshelves is my copy of the areas of my expertise, which was bought for me in 2005 when it came out.

Why didn't you shelve it face out, like in a bookstore? It is shelved out. It's just hard to see. I've spotted it. It's on the right-hand bookshelf on the third shelf down. Its distinctive orange and blue cover is highly recognizable. Yeah, I agree, but, you know. Judge Hodgman, what you're saying is why isn't it featured with the cover, the front cover facing out like an employee pick?

Like an employee pick. Exactly. I would have thought that you would, that all my books would be displayed there maybe with some, a little light and you know what I mean? Like a little display light or something. Well, obviously normally they are, but we're in the process of moving. So we had to remove the display lighting and the hermetically sealed case. Now, where's Vacationland here and Medallion status? I have since switched to e-readers because we have a lot of books and they're very heavy. Can't face those out. If you want to play the game of can you find John Hodgman's book in this enormously busy room, you can go to our show page at MaximumFun.org or our Instagram account at Judge John Hodgman.

See how quickly you pick it out. But there are those two creatures and their names again are? Baby and Halifax. Baby and Halifax. Which one is which? Halifax is the one that has pink accents. Baby is the one that has pink accents baby is the one that has yellow accents i used to make monsters and um for sale and once i stopped doing it i eventually made these two as a gift

for my wife and i just so we had some that were ours right but you're not going to actually get rid of one of these babies are you no no no no okay that was just a cruel hypothetical. Yes. Right. Incredibly cruel. Oh, my God. For method acting purposes. And I think the record should reflect that India immediately had what was absolutely certainly a sincere and authentic reaction. Yeah, there was nothing. There was nothing. Nothing.

Pretend about that unless she's the greatest actor in the world. That was for real. India, what if I were to what if Spencer were to tell you, hey, I think it's time to throw out John Hodgman's book. Oh, you know, I actually have not gotten around to reading that one. So I would be a little bit bummed about it. But I also have switched to e-readers. So I would probably just pick it up for my own e-reader. I rest my case, Your Honor. Yeah. All right. Now I know that you are sincere in all ways, but you are actually, both of you, good actors because it says here you met while LARPing. Tell me about your LARPs. What's your character, India? We met at a post-apocalyptic LARP. It was the opening game for our local chapter in Northern California. I wanted to play with what privilege looks like in the apocalypse. So I play a girl who's kind of run away from her hometown, but she was a performing magician there. She's not very good at magic because I'm not very good at magic, but I wanted to play with that intersection of hyper femininity and still being powerful and being able to fight zombies. So that's my, she has a lot of pink and purple and I try to grunge it down and dirty it down. So it's appropriately apocalyptic, but it's that privilege and femininity in

the apocalypse is my character. And Judge Hodgman, just so you know, they're in the Santa Cruz, California area where all activities are a form of social science PhD dissertation. What is your character's name? It's July. July. And there is a photo of you and is this you spencer it is in this armor oh wow so first of all july looks amazing thank you and is about to cut spencer off uh sort of mid-calf area with some kind of laser sword i don't know what kind of weapon is that it's um my magician's baton. Magician's baton. Excuse me.

Yeah. Right, because it's the post-apocalypse, so there's magic. I forgot. And then, so, Spencer, you are what? I play a character named Misha, who is essentially a victim of radiation sickness. And so underneath all of that armor, I also wear, like, full sort of rotting face makeup. And so he's just a guy who is kind of falling apart and stuck inside his armor. Does anyone ever see your facial makeup or is that just for you? It makes for a really fun reveal because a lot of people don't go to all the trouble to wear a full face mask and then also a full face of makeup.

And so sometimes I'll have to pull it up to like take a drink or something. And people all go sort of recoil and go. Yeah. Some people don't go all the way. You know what I mean, Jesse? You hear about these lazy LARPers? So sick of lazy LARPs. Those half orcs.

You know what I mean? Lazy LARPers. Go full orc. Yeah. That might cut it in Santa Barbara, but not in the Scruz. By the way, Spencer and India are joining us from a from a radio station that is near and dear to your heart right jesse the heavyweight 88 kzsc 88.1 fm in santa cruz california on the campus of uc santa cruz thank you very much kzsc now this photo is this

your first meeting did someone take a photo of you? This is not the very first time we met. We met when we were both unloading into the new player building. This entire game at the time took place on what used to be an abandoned military complex. So that's what this building in the background is. It was extremely cool.

And so we're unloading into the new player building and India and her sister walk by and I wave to them because I want to make new friends. And I go, hi, how are you? It's nice to meet you. And they go, hey, and keep walking.

Whoa, privilege, power and femininity in action. But it's really fun to hear it from India's perspective. My perspective of that was that Spencer had been posted by the owner of the chapter on the Facebook page, his costume and stuff, because it looks so incredible. And so I was like, wow, this guy's this guy's pretty cool. And in my defense, the next time we met, he did close the door in my face while I was trying to talk to him.

So classic post-apocalyptic LARPing meet cute. Meet radiation sick specifically. meet radiation sick specifically jesse thorne did you hear when spencer said i waved i waved hi because i wanted to meet new friends oh did i hear it i've it's all i've been able to think about since he said it we don't usually talk talk about the litigants right to right in front of their faces but that was very adorable spencer i I have to say. And by the way, a good way of meeting friends. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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You're living and LARPing it up in Northern California. Your room is full to bursting with all your favorite things and media and monsters and also my book for some reason. that includes, among other things in Spencer's case, not only professional monster crafting, but stained glass restoration. And in India's case, the classic Santa Cruz combination of early childhood education and circus arts. Plus pole dancing, it says here. This is the ideal lifestyle. And Spencer's wearing a t-shirt that's got a mushroom on it india's uh eyeglasses are heart-shaped this is this is

terrific everything's going right except for this one thing you gotta move you gotta downsize spencer wants to throw out creatures that you love india specifically this rug i see this photo of this rug here this rug has uh has pictures of owls on it spencer tell me about this rug why you want to get rid of it um so the rug is mine when i was still making uh resin and latex masks for various stage productions and larp and what have yous. Definitely a sentence I've heard before. Clearly. But we live in apartments, which usually are carpeted, and usually landlords don't particularly appreciate you getting clay

ground into the carpet that they have put in your home. And so I got this carpet for $20 secondhand that I could put under my desk, so that way anything falling off could get ground into that carpet instead. Very nice. Very, very, very thoughtful tenant. I am now moving into a new career where I doubt I'll have time to continue taking commissions. And so I don't need it anymore. And so I'm looking to get rid of it.

What is the new career? I am the reason we are moving is because I'm starting my Ph.D. program in bioengineering. Wow. That's amazing. Congratulations. Are you moving to another city? Are you leaving LARP Central behind? We are moving to Pasadena, California.

Spencer, you said a Ph.D. in bioengineering? Correct. So you're planning to go back into the field of monster creation? I can neither confirm nor deny oh no wow fair enough he's working on a super soldier serum india has told me that she will divorce me if i take any money from the dod so i think everyone's safe from that i mean you could always build centaurs for some sort of private military. Yeah. Why don't you? Yeah, that's a good idea. Why don't you? Why don't you get to make a camera to ride around on in Pasadena? I think that's a longer conversation between spouses. I'll have

to see how India feels about that one. Man, if you brought a chimera to the LARP club, you'd probably be made president right away. Extremely popular. Get a lot of thumbs up from India. But India, let's get grounded, specifically back down to the ground underneath Spencer's desk where these owls live. These trash owls, these trash carpet owls. How did you become connected to them? So I was aware that it was a catching detritus rug to keep the carpet safe. But I figured that we are people who like to merge form and function.

And so I was thinking that it was also a rug he had sought out because it's kind of cute and I like it. And it's got these cute little owls on it. One of them's got kind of a sad face. So I'm already attached to that one because I want to I empathize with it. I want to help it feel feel a little happier. And so I didn't realize that it was a like use here and then toss it out kind of rug. I thought it was a hey, look, I found this cute rug and it happens to be great for this purpose as well.

was a, hey, look, I found this cute rug and it happens to be great for this purpose as well. So I let myself get attached to it and kind of get used to having it in my home, get used to seeing the owls. Sometimes I'd visit him and I'd sit down on the rug next to the owls. And it was kind of nice. I have to say I have a difference of opinion, India. You said that one of these owls looks sad? I think they both look a little sad. Don't they both look a little sad, India?

I think the one on the yellow bulb looks a little bit sad, and I think the one on the white bulb looks a little more like... I don't know exactly what the right word is. Maybe suspicious is what I'm thinking of that one. Or resentful, even. Because they're wonderful owls in a very cute rug. And Spencer has put them on the floor to stomp on and collect garbage. This is agonizing.

This is terrible. And then after doing that service for all that time, these owls, what are their names, India? Yeah, the white one is, I'm pretty sure that's Sharon right now. Okay. All right. Sharon is the resentful one. And then you let me know when the sad one's name comes to your mind but maybe sharon is resentful because after this long service just being a trash rug now spencer wants to throw them away you have to admit spencer you could have

gone a different way you know you could have just gotten some industrial carpet you could have gotten a piece of plastic or you could have gotten i don't know a giant litter box or whatever to catch this falling resin i don't know what's going on i don't know what you've been talking about what are you doing with the resin again you're you're forming things um i try not to cast resin on top of carpet just because resin goes everywhere but clay bits will fly everywhere all kinds of stuff i feel very strongly about i try to avoid ever having things in my home that purely just serve a purpose. I try to not own things that I don't also have some kind of historical, emotional, aesthetic, something kind of attachment to. I try not to own things for things purpose.

And so when I picked out this rug, I picked it out because I really like it. And Spencer, you said you bought this rug secondhand? Secondhand. Yeah, it's a really cute rug. It's also, you know, would it be fair to characterize this rug as the kind of thing that new might have been $45 at a store that also sold meatballs? Correct. I think that is exactly correct. There's, in fact, a tag on the back confirming that fact.

Correct. I think that is exactly correct. There's, in fact, a tag on the back confirming that fact. And I believe the person who owned it before me had small children, and this was the children's rug. I washed it in a tub when I got it home the first time, and quite a bit of glitter came out. And so I'm guessing it was underneath their craft table. Yeah, yeah. So what you're saying is that Sharon and the unnamed sad owl prior to coming to your home lived with children and probably Sharon and the unnamed sad owl believed that the children loved them and maybe the children did love them and talk to them and give them other names and while

they're rubbing glitter in their faces until the time came that they both got scarlet fever grew up or whatever and Sharon and the and the unnamed sad owl were cast aside only to be picked up by you and now it's time for them to go into the fire that's your position spencer point of order i think i will like the rugs in good enough shape to donate i don't think it's going straight into our our famous trash fire out back um your your eternal trash fire. The one that never, never goes out no matter what you do to it.

Yes, of course. Right, of course. The post-apocalyptic LARP site, the eternal trash fire. Yeah. To be fair, we don't know that it belonged to children. Could have belonged to Rip Taylor. That's true.

That guy loved glitter. But Spencer, how does the emotional charge that I'm giving you and that India is giving you make you feel? Oh, terrible. Absolutely awful. I get very personally attached to my belongings. A lot of the things that I have have like multiple generations worth of history in them. Right. So, for example, in our first photo, the room of the photo of our room, the sideboard that the TV is sitting on, that's been with my family since 1847.

Wow. So I have a lot of connections to things. I really feel that not in the literal like, oh, there's ghosts and things. But I feel that especially in sort of the consumerist world that we're in now, it's very important to have a connection to the things that we have. There's a certain amount of anthropomorphizing to the idea of these owls being sad is really painful. Tell me more about your anthropomorphizing of things. Do you think the sideboard has a personality? I think the sideboard has a personality i think the sideboard has a personality and i feel like the sideboard is a representation of history i don't necessarily feel that the owls are a

representation of history but they do have a story they have like a child that they used to live with and they had glitter in them which i think is a. But also I recognize that down that road lies madness. And I have to be able to get rid of things occasionally. India, question. What's the sideboard's name? Sidey or Boardy or something else? You know what? That one I have to leave to Spencer because it is such a such a personal connection to him and his family and his family history. He has very, very long generations. So I respect the connection that he has there. And I recognize that I will never have the same level of connection because it is not my family, my genealogy that that connects that one to me. But I do love it. I would be furious if he tried to get rid of it. How much stuff do you have to both have to get rid of and what proportion of it is yours, India versus Spencer's? One of the problems is we don't actually know exactly how much space our new place has. We're going to be living in graduate student housing,

which means that we haven't toured the apartment. We don't really have a concrete floor plan or photos of the space. We're just kind of getting down there and seeing how it looks. So we're doing our best to pare down as much as possible, but it could be that we show up and we realize, oh, we probably could have kept some of this or we show up and we realize, oh, nope, we've got to get rid of another like full half of our stuff. Just kind of depending on how it goes. So we're basically as we're going through, we're trying to get rid of anything that doesn't directly provide us with a necessary function or spark joy. I haven't actually watched or read any of Marie Kondo stuff. I really need to. I'm sure it would serve me well, but I do know about Sparking Joy. You don't need Marie Kondo. You got Judge John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne in

our patented system, the all-the-time sorcery of being neater than you were or whatever. What kinds of things have you had to get rid of, India, that have been hard so far for you? One of the hardest ones for me that actually just came to mind, and I'm still feeling a little bit sad about this, is I have a pair of or I had a pair of moccasin boots that I got years and years and years ago. And there there's some just high, close to the knee fringe moccasin boots. The the laces had snapped on them at one point, and I just tied them together. They were grungy.

I wore them to LARP a lot. I wore them to the Renaissance Fair and stuff. Is LARP a lot some kind of LARP convention? No, it's LARPing nightclub on Pacific Avenue in downtown Santa Cruz. My misunderstanding. But they're kind of old and grungy. They're falling apart. I also, they don't quite fit around my calves anymore.

I've gained a lot of muscle mass in the past couple of years. India, I don't think you even have to explain it. We've all had the experience of having to get rid of a beloved set of footwear because we're too yoked now. Hey, the circus arts will do that to you. Plus early, early childhood education. Both of those are calf builders for sure. India, you got rid of those, those boots, but can you put yourself in Spencer's moccasin

boots for a moment? Do you hear what he's saying when he's like, I'm going through something when I think about throwing away Sharon and her friend. I don't need extra from you. Yeah, I definitely hear it. And I respect that. But I think the carpet is something that has been in our home,

has I've made this connection to it. And so while it is his item, I feel like I had this connection and I was kind of caught by surprise when he said, okay, yeah, we're getting rid of the carpet because I did not realize that that was on the table. And I hadn't had the time to process that Spencer had already taken and had come to terms with on that. And so I needed my own time to process. And I recognize and respect that the carpet is his, but I because it was such a big part of our space, something that I kind of came over to would spend time on. And I I really wanted to be able to have that time to to process or to talk through it. I think even with the boots, Spencer happened to be sitting there and I don't think he he wanted me to bring it to him. But I said, should I get rid of these? And I think for me, that was very helpful for him.

He didn't really care, but he didn't do a little voice like, no, we love you. We'll fit your new body, please, please. We'll fit your new calves. I say we let him go. I mean, I'm actually pretty sad whenever India gets rid of her things, just because it's always sad to have to get rid of things, I feel like. But I feel very strongly that my feeling about that isn't helpful because it doesn't actually have any bearing on whether or not India keeps them. So I might be like, oh, it's really sad that India is having to get rid of these moccasins that she has this feeling about or her jester costume that she's too jacked to fit into. But at the same time, if I lie on the floor and go, I'm so sad about your moccasin boots, it's not helpful to her.

What happened to that jester costume? Did it get tossed? We're still figuring it out. Oh, gosh. This one is really tragic. Did it get ripped like the Hulk's pants? Almost. Please don't make me jesty.

You won't like me when I'm jesty. What kind of jester costume are we talking about here? I used to work in costume design, and so I did a lot of a lot of kind of hobby costume building for myself. And this was a piece that I designed and built based off of a gift my sister gave me, which was a Venetian mask. And that one I still have. And that one still fits me. But the costume itself, I made it to match this mask. And it was I was really proud of it. It was one of my early pieces when I was still in in school for for apparel production. And it came out really

beautifully. It fit me really, really well. It's this incredible piece and it was so much fun to wear and jump around. I think I wore it to the Renaissance Fair. I've worn it a few times. I don't remember exactly where every time, but it's it's this piece that I love and I have this deep connection to because I made it and it was something I was so proud of. And even if it's not my best constructed piece now, it was my best constructed piece then. And I went to put it on when I was downsizing just to be like, okay, let me make sure this still fits and it won't go on over my shoulders or over my calves. And it is just, it's difficult because I don't have a lot of friends who can fit into stuff that...

So what are your options since you don't have too many Harlequino-sized friends, do you think you might just have to toss it, sell it on eBay, Etsy, LARPy, the Etsy for LARPing? Spencer actually had a great suggestion just yesterday. His suggestion yesterday was that I reach out and see if any middle school or high school theater departments can take the donation, which is wonderful because I used to work for a local, pretty local high school theater department. And so I think that's probably going to be my solution. I need to kind of sit in my emotions for a bit about it. But I think I will reach out to the people I used to work with and offer it as a donation. I should mention also, just in the way of Santa Cruz explaining Judge Hodgman, it is super hard to free cycle stuff in Santa Cruz. There's no freegans in all of Santa Cruz.

Oh, yeah, right. It's just super hard to post something on the internet and get somebody to come to your house and take it for free two seconds later. However that may be, I'm still going to give you a little bit of advice, India, when it comes to donating harlequin costumes or anything to a school or a thrift shop or a charity of any kind. Don't call up and ask first. Just go put it on the porch and drive away fast. How long have you been living together? We moved into our current place in February 2021. into our current place in February 2021. We had a brief stint of somewhat living together,

but we moved into our current place about two and a half years ago. You merged stuff about two and a half years ago. So there is still clear delineations. There are still clear delineations, you say? Like there are some things that are ours collectively. There are some things that are India's. There are some things that are mine. We're also newlyweds. Congratulations. Thank you. And so there is still a clear like this is hers.

This is mine. I've been trying to mainly get rid of my stuff. Got it. You're trying to download stuff that you brought into the house together. India, do you feel like there is a difference between a sideboard from the mid-19th century that has been passed down for generations through Spencer's family and a rug from a meatball store that he bought for $20 to absorb clay? I think there's definitely a difference. And the difference is kind of where the emotional connection comes from. I don't know if I would say there's an equal emotional connection. It's definitely different. But I think there is an emotional connection to both.

Whereas the sideboard has this deep kind of family history connection. The connection is definitely deeper on Spencer's side. The rug is something that I've kind of built this almost little relationship with that it again, it has faces. That's a hard one for me. Once it has faces, I kind of like I connect with it in a different way. That's when I anthropomorphize or that's like the easiest way for me to anthropomorphize. So I definitely see a difference there. And I understand what Spencer's saying and then it's his stuff. But when it's a little bigger like this, both of these compared to like a pair of shoes is these are things that live in our house that we both interact with consistently, whether or not it's logistically his.

It's it exists in both of our spaces. It's not always the bigger things. If I can bring your attention to our third piece of evidence, the chickens. Yes, I was actually just going to ask you, Spencer, to tell me about not merely the chickens. It says here the cursed chickens. I found I actually don't have a picture of it here, but I found a plate in a thrift store a long time ago that had the most sort of abysmal, kitschy, terrible rooster. Like, imagine the kitschiest, most awful rooster you've ever seen in your entire life. And I thought it was the funniest thing I'd ever seen in my entire life. And so I got it.

So ever since then, I have been collecting kitschy, terrible, awful, horrible roosters and chickens in terms of decor and dishware and things like that. Like mugs, chicken, chicken and rooster mugs. There's a chicken clock here. There's some bowls with chickens on the side. Anything, any sort of houseware decorated with chicken, with fowls of any kind. They have to be fowl, fowl. They have to be fowl, fowl. They have to be from a thrift store

and they have to be a certain level of threatening or miserable. And they're cursed because they're so weird looking and scary. Correct. And is your collection in control or out of control? Definitely in control. Okay. But you are getting rid of some.

I am. I'm getting rid of some that some people got for me. Oh. Somebody came across someone else who had a chicken collection and then just mailed me a box full of chickens right none of them are particularly horrible none of them are particularly wonderful to me and i didn't feel very strongly about any of them yeah i think the audience will see so you send in a photo of the one two three four five cursed chicken pieces that you're that you're contemplating getting rid of because they are not cursed enough uh and i think folks who will go and look at the

photos will see that there is a there is a difference between a true cursed chicken and a fake and a and a fairly cute cursed chicken or non-cursed correct have you gotten rid of them or are these in contention as well as the rug? Oh, we managed to get rid of the one, the biggest one. We recently had a going away party where the stuff that we have, we have decidedly chosen to get rid of. And you'd like to hold on to these or they have they have meaning to you? They do. They have faces. you? They do. They have faces. I will admit that because these ones are on a higher shelf and I am only five feet tall, I haven't been able to connect with their faces in the same way as the

owls, which were on the floor and much closer to me. So I don't have quite as deep a connection. But as soon as he pulled them down, I went, oh, no, because those they they're just so sweet. They're dopey. And like, I love them. I would love to hang on to them. You don't want to start a dopey chicken collection on a shelf the way Spencer has his cursed chicken collection on the shelf. You want to put these in rotation. I like the idea of having a functional chicken collection. My mom actually fairly recently within the past year got me a deviled egg dish that has chickens on it. And she specifically got it for me because she knows that Spencer's rules are so strict. And I don't know. How do you feel about that, Spencer? It feels like India and her mom are doing an end run around your chicken rule, bringing in some some wrong chickens into your house.

I mean, I don't see a reason we can't have two separate chicken collections. I'll just say all the really bad ones are mine. Look at this. This is the top husband of the apocalypse. That's incredible. I want to ask you a logistical question really quick. You don't know the size of the place that you're moving into. All we know is it's smaller than what we have now.

Right. You're doing some basic downsizing, but is temporary storage of some stuff an option for you or is it India too sad for you to imagine these chickens just and these owls sleeping in the dark? It's it's a little rough. Yeah, we are renting a storage unit because we also currently have a garage that has more of Spencer's family heirlooms in it that we didn't have space for in our current house. And those we need to hang on to. So we're renting a storage unit. Well, that's for long, long term keeping.

I'm just talking about short term or medium term storage in Pasadena until you get a sense of what really will fit into your apartment. So you don't have that problem that you suggested where you show up and you're like, oh, we got too much or we don't have enough, not enough chickens or whatever. Quite frankly, I don't think we can afford it. Absolutely. So now is the time to discard as much stuff as you can, including this owl rug, says you. Now, is this owl rug going to go? India, what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor? To keep the rug? I mean, I'd love to keep the rug. I think to rule in my favor, I would ask that Spencer bring

his discussions to me on things that he's going to get rid of when he is starting his emotional processing to give me a chance to emotionally process or discuss it with him. So that can be a collective decision. What's wrong with that, Spencer? I feel. That the emotional agony that causes me outweighs the benefit of having that discussion. I would prefer, unless it's something that India really actually genuinely cares about keeping, that she find a way to have that internal discussion with herself on her own time. And then if she were to say, you know what, I want that thing. Let's not throw it away.

Would you be OK with that? And that's perfectly fine. All right. A major issue here isn't actually whether or not we're keeping the rug. India usually comes around to being OK with getting rid of things. The problem is the the the agony leading up to it. Right. So you would have me rule that India just say, no dibs on owl rug and grab it and run away to the other side of the house where no one can hurt it anymore. I think I've heard everything in order to make my decision. One person goes into the Thunderdome and in a moment one will come out and I will render my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. India, how do you feel about your chances? I feel like Judge John Hodgman understands that marriage is a partnership and that we should feel out things together. But I also understand the side of it brings Spencer agony and we want to spare him that agony where where we can. And it sounds like, you know, if I'm going to be feeling it either way, maybe the best choice for will be to to make me stew in my own.

But I think I think I've got a pretty good shot here. Spencer, how do you feel? Similarly to India, I feel like the judge is always very good about finding a good middle ground or a good like a solution that benefits everybody. And. I think everything's going to work out OK, regardless. But still, you want to crush your wife, right? She's too strong. I can't crush her. Well, once you take that super soldier serum, things might be different.

Spencer India, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience,

one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky Let me give it a try

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Ugh, we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org if you need a laugh and you're on the go the van freaks road show rolls on through the midwest and thence to the east. Thence to the east. My favorite John Steinbeck novel. Hey, we're coming for you. Lexington, Kentucky at the Lexington Opera House. Holy moly, we're going to be playing in an opera house in Lexington, Kentucky.

I've never even been to the Bluegrass State. So I'm counting on you mint julepers to get over there and get your tickets at the van freaks roadshow.com. Then we're moving on to Chicago. Madison is almost sold out. I hear St. Paul, Minnesota at the Fitzgerald theater, Austin, Texas at the Paramount theater. And we take a tiny little break, just a little breather. Then we come back hard in Atlanta, Georgia at the variety playhouse, following up with Durham, North Carolina, Charlottesville, Virginia with special guests. Can we say who it is? Let's not. No, we're not going to say,, North Carolina, Charlottesville, Virginia, with special guest. Can we say who it is? Let's not.

No, we're not going to say, but he lives in Charlottesville, Virginia, and he loves cereal. And we might even have a cereal related dispute. It's getting exciting. Washington, D.C., our nation's capital. Portland, Maine, with special appearance. I just have been negotiating with his agent, Jesse. Joel Mann's coming down. Oh, wow.

Casting to Portland. Oh. Along with the night and day trio to favor us with some jazz tunes. All three of them. All three of them. And then on to Boston, Massachusetts at the Wilbur Theater, our home away from home. And then to Brooklyn for our second opera house. That's right.

We're doing a huge show at the Murmur Opera House in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. And that's going to be very special. We've got some very special guests lined up for that one. You should get your butts in the seats and give us your beefs at vanfreaksroadshow.com. There are links to all the tickets there, as well as a link to submit your disputes for consideration for live adjudication on stage. It's going to be a lot of fun. vanfreaksroadshow.com.

Also, just a quick thing. You are invited to join a secret society. To find out more, go to bit.ly slash you are invited to join a secret society. Oh, let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. So first of all, congratulations on finding each other, cohabitating happily, getting married recently. You've forged, you've forged, I'm using as much large terminology unconsciously as possible here. You've forged or resin molded a beautiful life for yourself. And now you're taking a big step from one wonderful place of California to

a different culture. So it's no surprise that moving, which is emotionally freighted enough, is even more so when it's involving this big life change, this big step forward. A very new marriage and a new PhD program, you're moving and you're moving down there to be with him India obviously and uprooting your life for his program there's a lot of there's a lot of vibing in this LARP of your of your life and those owls are cute I get it I don't like throwing away stuffed animals I think don't even know. Maybe I still got some back at my dad's house. And we got a whole bunch of them. And we are about to become empty nesters.

And they are going to have to go into the apocalyptic perpetual fire soon. That's hard. We are evolutionarily trained to seek other faces. And that's how you sell a glitter rug for a child's room. You put a couple of owls on it, they see those faces. That's how it works. You got to get it. Got to get those rug owls. I'm with you, India, and Spencer. I think it's really, really hard to let go of stuff, particularly if it's been with you for a long time, if you have history with it, and particularly if it has a face. But here's the thing.

You two share not only your life, but going forward, your stuff. I know it's early enough in your cohabitation that there really is a sense of, here's everything that I brought into this house, and here's everything that I brought into this house and here's everything that I brought into this house and there will always be things that are clearly yours your clothes your special possessions that are your own or what have you but when it comes to owl rugs under the under the desk that's not something you write your name in in case you get divorced you know what I mean like that's just a piece of something that's there. And it makes perfect sense that while you are not no longer as attached to it, or you've gotten over your attachment to that rug, Spencer, that at the same time that India has been visiting you in your workshop, that she has become attached to it. And it is joint property by law.

and it is joint property by law. And I think I was thrilled, truly, when you said, if India would like to keep the carpet or the rug, that's fine. I just don't want her making me feel extra guilty about it. I thought that's very, very healthy and reasonable. So my ruling is in your favor, Spencer. Insofar as India, it's sensitive time all around in this household. You and Spencer and all of these belongings have feelings. That's a

lie. You two both have feelings. The rest of the things are just things. And it is a kindness to the person you share your life with to not add to their emotional burden. Particularly when you each acknowledge that each of you are very emotional and you have these connections to these things. And to respect that when Spencer says, I'm ready to give this up, that he's gone through a process and he's ready to give it up. that he's gone through a process and he's ready to give it up. And you are there in your rights to be like, hmm, well, I'm not. Give it to me. As opposed to, how dare you murder these howls and make him feel even worse. But in fact, I order you for the sake of me sleeping tonight. I need you, India.

I need you to take them. I want you to roll up that rug carefully and take care of them. And perhaps they'll find a place in your new apartment where they can be really well featured. Maybe in a space that is your own. Underneath your feet. Or maybe hung as really well featured. Maybe in a space that is your own. Underneath your feet. Or maybe hung as a tapestry. Or woven into a costume. You know?

Yeah. See what I mean? Can you cut them out? They're only two owls. There's a lot of rug. Put them on a patch and some LARP. You have best friends for life. But I do need you to take care of them.

But the flip side of that is, don't make Spencer cry any more than he's already cried. And remember this wonderful time in your life. Remember this apartment, even if you must let it go. Don't let it be forgot that once there was a spot for one brief shining moment known as LARP's a lot. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. How are you feeling, India? You know what? I think it's fair. I definitely my

preference is to be able to talk things out together. But I very much see what what Judge John Hodgman is saying. And I'm sorry to have caused you extra agony after you've already worked through your agony, Spencer. Spencer, how do you feel? I really appreciate the judge's ruling. And I want to apologize to my wife that like this is a limit for me and this is a place that I just can't be there with her. I think it's important to have those boundaries, but it doesn't make them it still makes it sad that those boundaries exist. Spencer, you know what I was thinking would be the solution to this? Just each of you get to put three things in the truck

and then you make an ad on Craigslist and let those freegans go ape. Just open the front door and let the freegans go wild. See, the problem is that market's been oversaturated now. All the freegans, their houses are already filled with Fabergé eggs and there's just, there's no more, nobody can take anything more. Everyone already has too much good stuff.

Well, India Spencer, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We'll have swift justice in just a second. First, our thanks to Redditor W3H774M, probably spell something in LeetSpeak, for naming this week's episode Emotions to Dismiss. Join the conversation over at the MaxFun subreddit. That's at MaximumFun.reddit.com. That's where we've been getting these suggestions. It's fun just seeing all the different ones. It's fun seeing all the different ones. You're right. It's an abundance

of riches and it's always hard to pick just one. So yeah, get over there and name some. It's fun seeing all the different ones. You're right. It's an abundance of riches, and it's always hard to pick just one. So, yeah, get over there and name some. It's fun. Evidence and photos from our show posted on our Instagram account at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. Make sure to follow us there. Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode engineered by Elsie Cardoza and Richard Baldwin at KZSC Radio in Santa Cruz, California, and by Joel Mann at WERU Radio in Orland, Maine. Community Radio representing on this week's Judge John Hodgman episode. Marie Barty runs our social media,

our producer, Jennifer Marmer. Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. Redditor Orange Freshie says, My significant other claims that fruit on the bottom style yogurt is not meant to be mixed up. They say you're meant to dip down into the bottom to get the perfect bite. I've always mixed it up first. Who's right? Talking about some kind of treasure yogurt where you dig down and get the just the big spoonful of sugary sweet. What we're talking about, Judge Hodgman, is yogurt with a thin layer of jam and fruit at the bottom.

jam and fruit at the bottom. And the dispute here is between a mixy mixy that makes it all into a fruit yogurt or trying to do a dip that uses the tip of the spoon to pull at the layer of fruit at the bottom and draws up standard yogurt from the top, thus making a perfect bite. Like digging for buried treasure or extracting sweet petroleum from the earth. I don't think I've eaten fruit on the bottom yogurt since I was on a bus to fifth grade summer school when I took a computing class. That's the last time I remember eating it, trying to remember how I ate it. I think that I probably mixed it up.

And I do think that that's the intention, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to do it. I think it's perfectly valid to excavate your fruit from your yogurt. But if I'm going to ask you how it's designed, I think it's designed to be mixed up. Hey, Judge John Hodgman listeners, here's a question. When did you turn on Wes Anderson? I'm not saying I saying i ever wow i'm not saying i've turned on wes anderson not at all i love wes anderson i love all of it i'm just hypothetically asking a question was there a movie where you're like this is no longer for me i mean sometimes an artist that you love goes in a direction that you hate like dylan going electric at the newport folk festival uh which everyone really hated. Right, Joel? Absolutely.

Yeah, they hated that so much. They booed him. They yelled at Bob Dylan or Bob Dylan doing that totally weird, dumb Muppet voice on Nashville Skyline. Why did you do that, Bob Dylan? Someone played that for me. I'm like, this is a joke, right? No, no, this is Bob Dylan. That's it for me.

Or maybe there's an author of fantasy novels who wrote a book you didn't like, or maybe isn't writing a book fast enough for you. We want your disputes with artists you love who have gone astray. But don't worry, you, the loyal fan, knows exactly how they can get back on track. You only need to keep them prisoner in your snowbound cabin for a little while and maybe break their ankles.

Disputes with your faves is what we're looking for. Submit them at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. Or if you're watching this on social media, just drop them in the comments. Disputes with your faves. And of course, we want to hear any kind of dispute. Go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. With your dispute with your mom or your cousin or your sister or your uncle or your best friend or your best frenemy or your work wife or your baseball teammate, whomever it may be, submit those cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.