Kermode & Mayo’s Take - Sir Ridley Scott on Gladiator II

Episode Date: November 14, 2024

‘Gladiator II’ director and legendary one-man blockbuster factory Ridley Scott is our guest this week. He joins Simon to discuss the long-awaited sequel to 2000’s modern classic, in which this time Paul Mescal plays Lucius, the long-exiled son of Gerard Butler’s Maximus. He finds himself back in Rome as a prisoner from his now-conquered adopted homeland, and must outfight and outwit his opponents and captors whilst guarding the secret of his ancestry. Simon talks to Ridley about swords, sandals, CGI and how he knew Paul Mescal would make a great Roman. We find out what Mark makes of the high-octane epic– do its mega action sequences jump the (Coliseum-swimming) shark? Plus we’ve got two more reviews of ‘The Last Dance’, a punchy drama set amidst the Hong Kong funeral business from director Anselm Chan—and ‘Christmas Eve in Miller’s Point’, a kooky indie holiday comedy with an ensemble cast including Matilda Fleming, Michael Cera and Francesca Scorsese. Spoiler alert – if a catastrophic weather event happened at Miller’s Point, Mark wouldn’t mourn its disappearance. More top takes from the Good Doctors. To our LTLs and newbies alike: strength and honour! Catch Mark and Simon live at our Christmas Spectacular – final tickets available here: https://www.fane.co.uk/kermode-and-mayo Timecodes (for Vanguardistas listening ad-free): The Last Dance Review: 09:48 Sir Ridley Scott Interview: 28:23 Gladiator II Review: 44:19 Christmas Eve In Miller’s Point Review: 58:00 You can contact the show by emailing [e-mail] or you can find us on social media, @KermodeandMayo EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/take Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! A Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts To advertise on this show contact: [e-mail] And to find out more about Sony’s new show Origins with Cush Jumbo, click here Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, Teg listeners. We're coming to you from Vanuatu to talk about NordVPN. Well, you are. I'm in Tristan da Cunha, the British overseas territory in the South Atlantic. Well, fancy that. Anyway, we could be anywhere in the world, that's the truth. With NordVPN's help, we can unlock content and streaming services from right back at home, and 111 other countries with absolutely no problems. And I'm not suggesting there is, but if anyone on Tristan da Cunha was trying to hack me, they'd find it pretty hard. My online activity is totally safe with encryption, dark web alerts and tools to secure public Wi-Fi.

Not only that, it's the fastest on the market. If Tottenham are playing in the 5.30 kickoff, that's a lovely half past four in Tristan da Cunha, but half past three in the morning Pacific time, I can stream it as if I'm right there in showbiz North London. What's up? What's up? What is actually up with your big bad self? Well, I'll tell you, an interesting thing happened to me this week. I've had a very trying week, but I won't bore you with all the details. But- I'm sorry to hear that. Yes. I had to do, I had to film some BFI intros, which I do, and that involved my suit being

brought to that London and then being carried around with me all day in that London before going to that Acton to film the intros in the morning. In the evening, I got a train from that Waterloo to Chiswick. Despite the fact it was eight o'clock or something, the train was very busy and I'd been carrying this suit bag around all day. Then an announcement came on saying, the train is very busy, don't anyone put bags on seats? I thought, fine, absolutely, I'm going to put my suit bag up on the rack.

I thought I mustn't forget that. And then, yeah. And then I got off at Chiswick and then I realized- Is this your handmade, personally made private suit? Yes. Yes. No, no jokes. You know, yeah, it actually was. And I was bereft. I then began what can only be described as an odyssey into the wilderness of the internet, trying to discover how it is that you report missing items, which now the train company has farmed out to a company based in Norway.

So not only do you have to say what it was that you lost, but you have to say which country you were in when you lost it on anyway. This went on for a very long time and I was, I was genuinely upset. So the next morning we had to film the intros and my friend Nick Jones, who shoots them, had to lend me a shirt and a jacket.

And he is smaller than I am by quite some way. So I had to do up the button of the shirt so I was like that and I had to put a jacket on that made me look like you know Eddie Little and do these introductions in that thing and I was really downcast and then I got a mail which said thank you for reporting your lost item. We found it. It's at the lost property office in Waterloo and you can go and get it now. And I went to the lost property office in Waterloo, which is like something out of Harry Potter.

It's, it's in a cave below a bridge, below a cave and the guy requirement, the room of requirement, it was the room of requirement. And I turned up and the guy looked at me and he went, and he went off. He didn't say a word. Came back. He gave me the suit and went, didn't you used to be that bloke who did the film reviews? Well, now, so that was going really well. And then right at the very end, he cut you down. That's a terrible thing to say. And then he said, didn't you used to be a Ted? And I unzipped the suit and went, yes,

and here is my drape jacket to prove it. And he went, all right. Then he went back in. Anyway, how was your week? It does sound like the room of requirement. It's like a room that you walk into and you wish for your suit back. I was thinking that the email might've said that we found your suit, it's in Oslo. Exactly. We've got it here. I'm not kidding. They've literally farmed it out to a company in, it's either Norway

or Finland. And when you fill the thing in, and this doesn't fill you with great hope, the first thing you have to do is pick one of five countries that you've lost something in. Oh. do is pick one of five countries that you've lost something in. But astonishingly, within less than 12 hours, I got it back. Scandinavian efficiency. That's right. Plus, obviously the good folk at Waterloo.

Honestly, to the gentleman who served me at the thing, thank you, thank you, thank you, because it made my week. Waterloo lost property. I mean, it was a miracle. It was a genuine Christmas miracle. I got my suit back. I always imagine that in there, there's like a skeleton which a medic student has left. And a wooden leg. Yeah. A complete set of Encyclopedia Britannica, which also someone has left. Plus some top secrets left by a government minister who shouldn't have really had them on the train. All that kind of stuff. Anyway, thank you Lost Property for getting all sorted.

Really, genuinely, from the bottom of my heart, thank you. You can't believe how much that rescued what was otherwise a rubbish week. There will be movie reviews on this podcast. Like what, for example? Alan- The Last Dance. It's Christmas. We're going to have Christmas Eve in Millers Point and Gladiator 2 with our special guest… Mason- Who is of course Sir Ridley Scott. Yes, that Ridley Scott. In our premium bonus section for subscribers, Mark, what are you doing there? Alan- Two more reviews. Joy, which is in cinemas for a couple of weeks and then coming to streaming. The Franchise, which is the TV series from Amanda Iannucci and Sam Mendes.

Plus a TV movie of the week, The Watchlist and The Notlist. Your questions answered in Questions Shmestians. By the way, in our campaign to keep politics, particularly American politics, out of this podcast, because you can get that elsewhere, if you're sending in a question to question Schmestchens, it's quite helpful if you don't ask Mark what he thinks about the current situation in America. We'll get to that later. It's quite difficult for Mark to not say anything if actually specifically you ask him. Thank you very much. You can get all this via Apple Podcasts or head to extra takes.com for non-fruit related devices. There is an incredible seven day free trial. What a lovely thing. And if you are already a Vanguardista, as always, we salute you.

As ever, our email is correspondence at kermitabayo.com. Here is an email from a gentleman we mentioned last week, Richard Bythewaite. That's his surname. First name and second name. Dear gods of the airwaves, which I think is appropriate. How nice to get my surname added as the antonym of Schubert-ness in a recent episode. If we're all going to be offering addendum to the meaning of Lyth, might I offer that the cathartic but inoffensive swearing of a preschool child should be defined by the word Inverkip, which is a beautiful town with a lovely marina where I once went with my dad to look at a boat. However, as your show is meant to be a film related show, I just wanted to add at the

end that I saw a film recently whose title and plot elude me for a moment. There you go. That's it. That's the story of my life. So Inverkip, which leads us onto an email from Ed Freshwater, which was actually for last week, but it arrived too late to include in the show. And Ed says, just to say it was four years ago today, people still talk about it to me. Thank you so much for broadcasting my boy and I'll see you in a month. Obviously, okay, so Ed's coming down for our Christmas show. When I was with the Copenhagen fam in the south of France a few weeks ago, when I wasn't here, there is a tunnel that we went under. I was there with

grandchild one and we all shouted, sticky pants we, which obviously made no sense to a two year old from Denmark and no sense to the French. But it was, and maybe I think, I think Richard, by the way, his idea is fantastic. That is invakip, the swearing of a preschool child. Brilliant. Brilliant. Wonderful. hip, the swearing of a preschool child. Brilliant, brilliant, wonderful. Andrew Rowland says, I was at the Liverpool Comic Convention yesterday, the 11th of November 2024, where I was able to talk to a variety of people of the screen, big and small. One gentleman I

happened to have a chat with as I was getting their autograph was very friendly. I happened to ask him about them being frequently mentioned on a certain radio show. I asked how this came about and he very nicely explained it to me. Apparently you no longer mention this person on your podcast, much to their disappointment. Therefore may I ask why do you no longer say hello to Mr Jason Isaacs? We do. Well, I think we do. I think this is feeling insecure. We do. I mean, it might not be with- Jason, if you're listening, we still love you and we think about you all the time. And we do mention your name, but maybe at the bit where you've stopped listening, you

know, the little bit at the end? Anyway, no, we do. In fact, last night I went to the Booker Prize ceremony and when they go through the shortlist, there are six books on the shortlist and there's a little film that goes with each of them with a reading from the book from a top actor. And one of the books nominated was held by Ann Michaels. And there's Jason comes up on the screen, reads a bit, fantastic bit of acting, as you would imagine. It didn't win, but I was voting for it because it had Jason involved. But Jason, we still love you was voting for it because it had Jason involved. But Jason, we still love you. And Andrew, thank you very much indeed. The other day I had to do a very, very long drive and I was listening to old Goon Show records,

including the dreaded batter pudding hurler of Bexhill on Sea. If you remember that the dreaded batter pudding hurler hurls batter pullings at Mini over a series of things. And then there's one point when he hurls a batter pudding at her, but it's cold. And Mini says, he's losing interest. That's speaking right to the soul of the performers. So let's just say, not just hello to Jason, but also Fairport, but I think it's time for a review. So what have you been seeing and should we bother? Okay, so The Last Dance, which is a Hong Kong drama co-written and directed by Ansel Cham. Dominic is a wedding planner whose business has collapsed during the pandemic. So he moves

into a new business going from marriages to deaths. His girlfriend's uncle owns a funeral parlour. The uncle agrees to let Dominic take over the business in partnership with Master Man, who is a Taoist priest who performs this ritual called breaking hell's gate, which is a ritual that is performed during the funeral things. The two are chalk and cheese. One of them is a young businessman who wants to modernize the business and sell trinkets. The other is an old priest who lives in the past. I'm going to play you a clip and then I'll give you a translation for the listeners. Here we go. Okay. Thank you.

Hong Kong people, one man, one dance, walking on the street, you are the men. You are responsible for the ancestors. We walk on the street and we are responsible for the living. Why are the living people responsible for the people? You don't know what it's like. No, it's not like that. Killing people also has to break the earth. So in that clip you hear Dominic saying, a well-run funeral home needs a brain and a brawn. Agent and Taoist priests.

Taoist priests transcend the soul of the dead. Agents transcend the soul of the living. And the priest says, why would living souls need transcending? That's ridiculous. And the agent says, no, there are a lot of troubled souls. Living can be hell. Then a woman turns up who's widely regarded to be crazy, whose son has died and she wants the son wrapped like a mummy and preserved, and she has been turned away from everywhere.

But her insistence that money is not an issue means Dominic says, okay, we can do it. Masterman, the priest, is outraged. He says, you can't, it's a sin. You're stopping the boy's soul from moving on by going through the burial ritual. And then what follows is this kind of bittersweet drama about the care for the living and the dead in which both Dominic and Mann learn about each other and about themselves. There's a wider drama which is addressing issues of religious conflict. One character is baptised simply so that their child can get into a school, but it has to keep it a secret. There's a lot about chauvinist tradition versus modern feminism. The Taoist priest is an old school who believes that

women and menstruation are dirty. There's the issue about why women can't be priests, changing social mores. It's a strange film. It is sometimes darkly comic. It is sometimes quite heartbreaking. The scenes with the sun are really, really, really distressing. The director was previously known for comedies, and apparently the first draft of this that he wrote during COVID was a lot darker than the film is now. He then went through it to leaven it with this bittersweet comedy. Really great music, Chihuan Pin and then A Tight Track by Terence Lamb really brings us into the drama. Great performances, particularly by Michelle Wye, who is Yewett, who is this paramedic, this mastermind's daughter who has to put up with his chauvinistic, traditional, sexist attitudes and is trying to change the world. There was a review that I saw of it in the South Shining Morning Post, which said it

was one of the best women's empowerment films Hong Kong cinema has seen, and indeed it has been successful. It's a strange thing. I knew nothing about it before I saw it. And about half an hour in, I was trying to get the measure of the tone and I couldn't at all. But by the end of it, I thought actually it was oddly profound. And it is that kind of bittersweet comedy in as much as it is able to encapsulate both tragedy and comedy and the sort and the transcendent and

the metaphysical with the down to earth. I enjoyed it very much. It's a small release, but one that's worth seeking out is called The Last Dance. Mason- Box Office top ten. By the way, correspondence at coveninvader.com. Thank you very much indeed. If you see any of these films or you see anything you want us to discuss, just let us know. Top ten then, at number 12, Bird, an email from Martijin Tahar. This movie was a bit of an odd one out at the Imagine Fantastic Film Festival in Amsterdam between stuff like Violent Nature and Heretic. I am with Mr. Kermode. It's okay. I could take the leap of faith with the magic realist past, but it still didn't work for me. Maybe it felt like Andrew Arnold maybe thought

it was getting a bit too much of poor people in abusive relationships misery porn, and so she tagged on some escapism. I also am done with the shaky handheld digital video look. Not as bad here as in the extremely ugly, evil does not exist, but still bad. If you're not a native English speaker like me, it is also sometimes a bit hard to understand what is being said. I saw the movie without subtitles through a combination of the bad miking thing Mr. Mayo mentions and street slang. Okay, so that's Bird at number 12. Anyway, Marta Ginta agrees with you, Mark. I think it's Andrea Arnold's weakest film, but I think that even when she's, I mean, it was my film of the week, because I think that even when

she's off form, she's still phenomenally more interesting than most filmmakers out there. It is strange that Barry Kjogun is in it so little, considering that it was this rather than Gladiator 2. I think it's deeply flawed, but I still think Andrea Ronald is a major filmmaker and I'll watch anything she does. Mason- Do you remember that email we had a while back now from someone speaking up for dubbed from someone speaking up for dubbed TV and dubbed films, because it enables you to concentrate on the acting and the face acting and so on, rather than your eyes tearing across the bottom of the screen. I watch almost everything with subtitles and I'm very glad that it's there. But there is certainly something that is true, particularly if you're watching a foreign language

something that is true, particularly if you're watching a foreign language film or TV series that you're reading so fast. I think you do miss some of the acting. You do miss some of the drama. So anyway. My problem is that when you get dubs is that you're getting a different performance. I think that's like, as was just that example of us playing that clip just now, which I then translated afterwards. But the reason that we played the clip was so that you could get a sense of the tone of it. A dubbed clip would have a completely different tone. Number 10 is piece by piece. Yeah. Unsurprisingly, it's just skimmed the top of the top 10 and then it'll be gone.

I quite liked it, but I'm not sure it's an entire feature film. Anorah is at number nine. Fabulous. I mean, Sean Baker is just one of the great humanist filmmakers of our time. I loved Anorah. It is showing up on- What does that- Can you explain what you mean by that? Yeah. I mean, he makes films that have great compassion and empathy for human beings. They are non-judgmental. They are films about people and the way in which people really experience

the world. I think that is something of a rarity in cinema, particularly in bigger budget cinema. I think that Sean Baker has just made a career of making films about marginalized characters whose lives are fully represented and understood. they ooze empathy and consequently, I mean this is an absolute thrill ride of a film anyway because it's like into the night, you are torn through the action but you believe in and care about all the characters. Blitz is at number eight. Some listener comments here. Michael on our YouTube channel, there were great sound. Okay, so this is picking up on the fact that Paul Weller is making his acting debut. Yes. Brilliantly. I thought so. First of all,

someone who wants to be called, why is it not? Why isn't it possible? Considering it's Paul Weller's first film role, I guess you could say he's an absolute beginner in the world of acting. Hey, continuing up on where we left off. Mink, you ate... Oh, just call yourself Brian or something. Mink. So this is set in the city then. Alex says, guess that's entertainment. And Michael on YouTube, there were great sound effects in the movie.

That's enough Ed, I think. Seven is Smile Too. Which I really enjoyed. Great popcorn entertainment. Small things like these at six. Doing brilliantly in independent cinemas at the Act One in Acton, they've been virtually turning people away. Apparently, it's caught people slightly off guard because it's so low key that there was a worry that it might pass unnoticed, but no people are really, really liking it. And again, the absolute showcase for the brilliant do little, but do much acting of Killian Murphy.

The Wild Robot is at number five. Beautiful to look at, sentimental, moving, and works for kids of all ages. Venom the Last dance at four. Utter pants. And I don't get it, but hey, there's a couple of good gags in it. And I mean, I like the cast and I like the director, but I just thought it was a complete car crash of a film. Heretic is at number three.

Huzzah for late period Hugh Grant. I mean, it's just, has there been a better time to be Hugh Grant than now? He must literally be sitting at home thinking, well, gosh, you know, I am just- Gosh and crikey. Gosh and crikey. I am just fabulous at the moment. And of course there's more Hugh Grant at number one. But first of all, number two, Red One, Dear Santa and Krampus. I can't help but feel that Mark was channeling The Grinch last week with his review of Red One. I was chatting with some friends who'd seen it and all three of us

had quite a good time. Quite a good time. It's silly nonsense, but it's Christmassy silly nonsense with lots of hearts and great performances from the likes of JK Simmons and Lucy Liu and had loads of practical stunts and prosthetics. Yes, admittedly somewhat drowned out by an overuse of CGI monsters. But then I heard Mark say that he didn't like jingle all the way either. So maybe that's it. Us 90s kid millennials grew up on stuff like that and loved it. So perhaps we're that elusive audience that Mark was wondering who this was for. Merry Christmas, Ho and Bar Humbug from Ian in Finchley, Chris Douglas

in Gloucester. We loved it. Yes, it's daft with NAF CGI, tumbleweed gag moments, inexplicable elements like Santa's buffness obsession, though he shrinks to get down chimneys, and a sackload of other anomalies. But it made us laugh well into double figures. And who's the target audience? A 13-year-old boy, a Christmas-obsessed 17-year-old girl, a 19-year-old university student, and two knackered parents, both the wrong side of 50. So thank you, Chris Douglas. Soapbox Stereo on our YouTube channel. It's like a Christmas movie you'd see in Tropic Thunder. And Rob T says, Chris Evans is the shining light in the slop that is this film. That is red one at number two. Well, I mean, look, the people that wrote in and enjoyed it and the thing about Jingle all the way, then I'm really glad. And all I can say is, you know, I can only

be honest. I loathed it. I thought it was cynical, clap trap, and I didn't laugh once. But it does go to show that in the words of my great friend, in the end there's only one review which is, it's all right if you like that sort of thing, and I don't. And the number one movie is of course Paddington in Peru and Hugh Grant does turn up right at the very end and also at the very end. Is it a spoiler to say that though? Do you say? I mean, what's it spoiling? No, I suppose so. I mean, I wasn't sure whether Hugh would make an appearance then when he

did. You know, I thought the screen lit up. But it was one of those classic things like I saw Sanj over the weekend and Sanj was talking about the fact that we were talking about, you know, saying that the thing that Paddington in Peru needed was more Sanjeev. Um, he was, incidentally, I was with him at a function over the week. He was rocking a tuxedo. He, they should cast him for James Bond. He could, he could absolutely do Bond. He, he brushes up really well. And then Hugh Grant- Is he buff? He's not even buff. It's like, he's got, you know how it is sometimes, some people, they put a suit on and it's like, you go, you know that moment in old movies when there's a secretary

with glasses on and then she suddenly lets her hair down and someone goes, but Miss Jones, you're beautiful. Sans, who I've thought, you know, decent looking man. Turns up in this taxi, you go, wow. You know, wow. So Paddington in Peru, Michael Cagill from Speech Therapists Sanctum. Uh, we've had the origin story, the crime caper, and now the action adventure, proving this little bear can fit into a variety of genres, a full blown musical next perhaps. Well, that is happening as we mentioned last week. This film kept us chuckling along all the way through with the possible

exception of one beautifully executed and age appropriate jump scare, which led to hand grabbing and eye covering by my family who shared Mr. Brown's antipathy for one particular purple need animal. I enjoyed the ongoing building of Paddington's backstory and watching the three films in close succession. The opening segments form a little trilogy on their own, only working backwards each time and revealing the events in a fashion reminiscent of memento. Love the show, Steven, up with purple-coated immigrants reminding us that there is so much more to everyone than where you come from and that crossing borders with an open and honest heart should be something to be celebrated, not feared.

Au contraire, says Peter Fogarty, utterly disappointing. None of the magic that makes a real Paddington film, none of the kindness and compassion that always brought a tear to my eye in the previous films. Looking for the good in others and finding it is what makes a Paddington film not empty platitudes and rehashing gags from the other films. Remember this bit? Emily Mortimer has the impossible job of filling Sally Hawkins' shoes and can't do anything with the little material she's given. With the way the world is at the moment, I was looking forward to a bit of genuine goodwill at the cinema, but this felt like a cheap cash grab.

A couple of chuckles really pales in comparison to the consistently funny previous instalment. Also the messages in the film felt so hollow. Tribe versus family, the Tribe were just a bunch of CGI bears who weren't even named characters. Not a real Paddington film, I'm sorry to say. Anyway, Paddington in Peru is number one. I think that's a little harsh, Mr. Fogarty. Yeah, I think it's a little harsh.

I mean, I think it is the weakest of the Paddington films and it suffers from that sequel problem, which is what do we do? Let's send them abroad. And once you take Paddington out of London, you do kind of defuse the central thing, which is that he's a bear at large in London and therefore it's a way of looking at, you know, the kind of emblematic of the UK. But I mean, I enjoyed it enough. I didn't love it and I didn't hate it. I'm somewhere in the middle. I do think that the bit we've now talked about,

I think Hugh Grant at the end is faberunni and literally stay till the very, very end and then go to the cinema next door and watch Heretic. Well, yes, except what I was going to say was it is quite useful to have a film in the cinema, particularly going into Christmas with time off. You can go with your parents and you can go with your kids and it's perfectly good. There's a lot of good stuff in there and yes, everything that you said is true is the weakest of the three, but you can all go and you can have a good time and you can laugh at the same time, you know, at the same things, pretty much. Correspondence of Codemayor.com, on the way Ridley Scott talking about Gladiator 2, plus Mark reviews Gladiator 2 and what else? Also Christmas Eve in Miller's Point, all coming up after this.

This episode is brought to you by Mubi, a curated streaming service that brings you the best of cinema. Nothing but ambitious films by visionary filmmakers, each thoughtfully handpicked by Mubi's curators. If there was ever a sign that Divine Intervention existed, this is it. Because I'm back to talk to you again about The Substance, which is my favourite film of the year so far. This is an absolutely brilliant jaw-dropping masterpiece from Carly Fajard. It stars Demi Moore and Margaret Qualley. It is one of those body horror films that is incredibly deep and weird and strange and provocative. Absolutely thrilling. It's

one of the things that reminds you that films at their best are one of the most exciting things on the planet. I absolutely love this film. It won best screenplay it can. Frankly, it should have won everything. It's fab. You can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.COM slash Kermode and Mayo. That's m-u-b-i dot com slash Kermode and Mayo for a whole month of great cinema for free. Hey it's Ben here. Now you know the take is sponsored by BetterHelp. This month is all about giving gratitude. So how about this right, the person who found my daughter's bag that had her debit card and her cash in it and went out of their way completely stranger

to make sure through the bank, through various means she got that back back. You are appreciated, you get gratitude. And we should not forget to give ourselves a little bit of gratitude whenever we can because you know the world's an overwhelming place at the best of times. And honestly like BetterHelp gave me the tools to help me be nicer to myself, gentler to myself, helps make me more content and confident out in the wild. So look, if you're thinking of starting therapy, you could try BetterHelp. It's totally online, it's convenient, it's flexible, suited to your schedule, no matter how crazy that gets. And with over 5,000 therapists in the UK already, BetterHelp can provide access to a wide variety of mental health expertise. So let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash Kermode. That's betterhelp, h-e-l-p dot com slash Kermode.

Hey Mark, I find that I've been thinking recently about merch. Merch? Yes, merchandise, especially all those goodies we have for sale online, you know, branded mugs, t-shirts, water bottles, you name it. The torch, the director's chair, the full works. I wish someone had told me about Shopify, the all-in-one commerce platform to start, run and grow your own business. I know all about that. So Shopify is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide, whether you're

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Kermode. All lowercase. All lowercase. I mean, what is wrong with Kermode and Mayo? Why can't it be Mayo just for once? It's easier to spell Kermode. They've gone for shopify.co.uk slash, let's say it together, Kermode. So Ridley Scott, in just a moment, just on the subtitle thing, Mark, I think the reason

that I just was chipping in again on subtitles versus dubbing is I was enjoying Pachinko, which is a fantastic series on Apple TV Plus. It is in Japanese, Korean, and occasionally in English. The Japanese is green-blue, the Korean comes up subtitles in yellow, and then the English is in white. So you're following the dialogue, plus working out who is speaking which language. And if the conversation is really fast, that is, in my experience, too much information to take on board. Fortunately, we don't have to be troubled with foreign languages when you're talking about gladiator 2, because everybody helpfully speaks English, different versions thereof. So Ridley Scott on the way, she'd said before we actually started recording,

he came in and he was slightly cheesed off with a review that he'd read in one of the big papers in this country. And I said, oh, I wouldn't take any notice of him. I always disagree with everything that he says. But it was just But he's Sir Ridley Scott and he was really, really annoyed by this review. And then he jumped into the story, which I knew because he tells it anyway, about a four-page Rolling Stone review of Blade Runner, which said, what a terrible film. It was just terrible, terrible, terrible. And he's got it framed. I think he makes a number of references to it. Anyway, so clearly reviews do get to him. And I did say the only review that you need to be bothered about is the one from Mark Kermode on this podcast. So we're going to get there. But first of all, no, no, no, no, no. First of all,

let's talk gladiator two in the company of the great Sir Ridley Scott. There once was a time when honor meant something in Rome. In this road, I no longer believe And know this, where death is, we are not. Where we are, death is not. By my sword. Strength to mother! Strength and honour! Strength and honour! Strength and honour! Strength and honour! And that is a clip from Gladiator 2. I am delighted to say we've been joined by its director Sir Ridley Scott. Ridley, hello, how are you?

Good. I'm getting croaky with so many interviews. I'm croaking. Yeah, but that's because people are interested. That's because people want to hear the story. Well, it's always a good thing, yeah. They want to hear what you have to say. Yes, exactly because again, we've come back to a story which you which you began a couple of decades ago and they've always been there's been like rumors of Another gladiator movie kind of ever since no, I the film was successful It was a time but then it became more successful in its afterlife.

So what we do in life echoes in eternity. So actually it kept echoing around the world, mainly because of the platforms. Because one of the thing about all the digital platforms is you can press a button, I can press a button, you get the duelist looking perfect from 45 years ago, right? And so it keeps films alive, which is great. And I kept getting told by a generation that were probably three when the Gladiator was done, I love your film, Gladiator. So where do you see it on TV last night? So I thought after a while with Doug and Lucy and Fisher and my fellow producers,

said, you know, we have to have a sequel. So we sat down in that first conversation, that's got to be almost 10 years after the original film. I haven't got a date on it, but from that we talked about it. We had a writer in who took 10 months to fail. I'm not going to say who he was because he's a friend and he's a good writer. He said, I don't know how to do this thing. So we then let that drop. Meanwhile, I'm not sitting around and biting my finger. I'm making 13 movies in this time.

So I then go back and said, we left it two years. We got hit the table again. So you sit around a table and you pontificate, you do a what if around the table. And from the what if came out the sequel, and here we are. So that was almost quite recent three years ago. Was the story always going to be about Lucius? Well, not necessarily, but when you think about this only once, there's two survivors, there's the mother. People might question that, of course, did she simply get older and that was it. But the boy, what happened to the boy? And that's a question that hangs in there until you say, wait a minute, well, where did he go to? And suddenly you're into a conversation about his journey,

and why did he return to role. So it's a bit like people don't realize but writing a screenplay, you're essentially writing a book. And the fact that we start with Lucius means that you have to have a fantastic actor playing the role. And the last time Paul Maskell was on the show, which was for Aftersun, and he said, and this is almost a word for word quote, he said, I could quite happily spend my time doing small independent movies. And then the next thing, the next thing, hello, he's in one of the biggest epic films of all time. How did you end up with Paul? Well, I need to have a bedtime story.

I try not to watch the news because the present news is bad every which way you look at it. So I tend to skim and I tend to look at what they call the low budget division because I like to watch the new incomers rather than the old outgoers, okay? And the new incomers, I saw this thing called normal people. I thought, that's interesting. Then I saw that, and I binged on the eight hours, not in one go, but in like four goes of two. I thought, this guy's really interesting.

He reminds me of Richard House, a little bit of Albert Finney in the young years. And this coincided with me almost having the script now working intact and we're starting to think where we're going to go with it. And I said, do you want to do the film? He said, yeah. Are you kidding? I think he said, are you kidding? I don't think I'd noticed before he has a fantastically Roman profile.

Yeah, that's my job. I go for it. The nose is good as well. So I think Richard Harris had a great profile. Finney had a great profile. And Paul has this Roman profile. You'd be quite a good casting director. I think I'd be pretty damn good.

I do quite well. And do you cast all the time? Are you kind of almost subliminally, you're always looking out? Well, usually when I'm thinking about what I'm doing next or working on it, I'm already thinking about who the two or three leading players will be. But in any movie, there's dozens of other people that have to be cast. So I do rely on very good casting directors as well. I'll pass by them.

I say, what about this? What about that? I've already thought about them all. I'm stuck here to fill it in. Casting director is really a very important conversation for me. Pedro Pascal and Denzel Washington are two of those. Denzel was my idea.

Well, and you worked with him on American Gangster. Did you say to him this is like Roman Gangster? No, I said, I was thinking of a powerful mur. I'm going to show you a painting of this incredible mur. And it's by Jean Giraud-Giraud. And it's a portrait of this guy in beautiful orange and blue silk. Clearly a very wealthy tradesman of whatever the period would be. Probably Venetian. And I said, there he is.

And then I said, well, in a way he's the kind of billionaire who thinks he can take over the throne of Rome. Is that familiar? Let's not go political. But he loves the fabric, does he not? He likes the way he dresses. Well, I love the way he… So he's kind of metrosexual. Oh yeah, Denzel always finds his arena and his detail. And I noticed he started to enjoy the fabric. He did. And that adjustment, I thought was really cool. He absolutely did.

How did you want them to talk? You couldn't go around and certainly saying is it going to be theatrical, is it going to be perfect English, is it going to be Italian? I think you don't. I think once you get a great actor doing his role, people absorb rain and just watch it. You can overthink that. Paul Mescal, he sounds to me as though he's speaking English, Southern English. Well, then he's not speaking American. Yeah. And Pedro Pascal is sort of speaking... He's in between, but I never care about that,

no. If it's working, you don't even notice. Can I ask you about technology, Ridley? Obviously, it's changed incredibly in the 20 years since between this film and more than 20 years. Not a lot, not a lot. No, I mean, I already had, in fact, I was part in the effects company that I gave the first film to, and we got an Academy Award for it, a company called The Mill.

I said, I'm going to pull these guys out the ground. We built 40% of the arena full scale. If I pull out and go around with the study camera, I want to see the rest of the whole arena. Remember that, Sean? Yeah, I do. And they said, yeah, that's a challenge. We can do that. And they pulled it off. And that was then. So they pulled it off. And that was then. So they're pretty swiss good. Has AI made your job easier?

AI, I think we're into AI in every which way you can possibly imagine, including the cell phone. So my AI film really happened twice. It was Alien with Ash, an AI on board the craft. The logic being every large ship with hugely valuable ship and cargo will have a company man on board. The company man that we won't know but is an AI. That was Ian Holm. Then I went really AI with Flesh and Blood with Tyrell's organization, who was building a colony on the moon and needed hardy individuals to be on the moon as an army.

So Roy Batty and his cohorts were a perfect example of what we've got to watch out for. When the AI gets smarter than we are, we've got to be very careful. You worked very fast anyway. I think it was 51 days for the whole of this movie. smarter than we are, we've got to be very careful. You worked very fast anyway. I think it was 51 days for the whole of this movie. Does that technology, that AI make you mean that you can work even faster? No, I'm the AI. I'm the AI.

You are the AI. I think I've definitely got a bit of AI in me because I can cope with 8, 11 cameras at once and it comes from the most valuable thing I've ever done in my life was go to art school for seven years. And seven years went to a place called West Hartlepool College of Art in County Dom, was it? Yeah, I think it was Dom. And I learned more there than even going to the Royal College of Art.

I then got in everywhere I got in the Royal College of Art. And from there I went into television design. But being an art student, I can really draw and as it were, really paint. So I then started to do my own storyboards. And the storyboards means that you're sitting there weeks before working out and planning the scene what you're gonna shoot.

So you already think of camera plan. So you're thinking 3D already anyway. So that became very normal to me. And I'll give an example. I was asked to go and do Alien of a script that I was the fifth choice. So before I went in, I looked at the script knowing this is my big shot. I love it, even though it was turned down by other people, they weren't appropriate.

Whoever they'd asked was not appropriate because I'm a comic strip aficionado at that point with Jean-Gerard Mobius, who was the very best of them all. And so I drew the boards for aiming before I got there. The budget was 4.2 million. They saw the budget and they could see a vision. It went to 8.4, like that. So it doubled the budget. So vision is everything.

If you haven't got it, then it's going to be hard work. Just on the art student in you, can you just describe the opening few minutes of your film? Because I haven't seen that kind of way of reminding us about the story and the key moments of what has been before we come to this. Well, it comes to where did this boy go? And after a long journey of prolonged search by some of the Roman cavalry would be hunting him to fundamentally execute him, being the blood of Marx Aurelius, and therefore he would lose touch completely quickly with his mother.

So by living in the desert and fending for himself, that was the best tutor in the world. So he found himself to be in North African place in in Namibia and being a blue-haired red-haired boy, he was a bit of a stranger and a stranger and he embraced them, they embraced him. He embraced, had a woman, had a wife, had his family. So he found himself alive and no one knew he was the Prince of Rome. Now you have the attack by the Roman cohorts simply because they want the territory, no more than that. They were empire builders. So I said, I want to do Namibia seaport.

I haven't done the attack by Roman ships, the trimarines and things like that before. Let's do the ships. So I'd made Kingdom of Heaven 15 years ago in Morocco. And instead of putting the set down, I sold it to the Moroccans for, I think, $10, providing you sign all the insurance. Everything's your responsibility because they take it down, but it cost me $300,000. So they bought it, and they rented it for the next 15 years. I had to go back and rent my own set for a million dollars, it really pissed me off. I'm sure about it. That was the walls of New Namibia. And wherever there's sand, we just put in the sea.

And we built three full-scale boats with three decks with rows and everything. So I could put all my cameras all over them. These boats are house movers with, I think, 24 wheeled vehicles, wheels this big, can move 100 tons. And they can rocket, tip it, and do 30 miles an hour. So we've got these three ships approaching shore. You sample them, you make a fleet of 50 in heartbeat. Then you put in the water. Is it the Bee Gees next? Which is the most ridiculous juxtaposition. No, I'm already wrecking the next one already. I'm going to do the next one in north of Venice,

in Italy. It's going to be called Dog Star. And the Bee Gees comes in September. So you've done the Bee Gees comes in September. So you've done the Bee Gees? No. I was right up to the threshold of Bee Gees, and the studio changed the footprint. I didn't like it. What does that mean? It means that I didn't like the deal. So I stepped away and said, be warned.

And I've got another one ready. So I'm now already wrecking the next one. I'm going to be shooting by April. Are you speeding up? No. I think I've always been quick. As a commercial maker, I was very successful. In those days, I do 100 commercials a year personally because I do two a week.

People would do 12. I never understood that because my graphic design brain locks with a vision, a little vision, sounds pretentious not, as I'm reading a script, I'm literally seeing the scene. There's clearly lots more Ridley Scott to enjoy. Sir Ridley, thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you, man. Thank you.

Thank you. The one and only Sir Ridley Scott, and I know we've mentioned this before, he is 87 this month. And may we all have a 10th of his energy I know we've mentioned this before. He is 87 this month. May we all have a tenth of his energy and vision and excitement with life. I mean, I know we mentioned this when Biden was thinking about everyone was saying he's too old and he's a bit dodgy.

I was thinking, yeah, but look at Ridley Scott. He's also- But Ridley Scott is not like other 87 year olds. I mean, he is, you know, the sharpness of his mind is worth saying that, you know, when he was talking a lot in that interview, which was great about his drawing thing that they referred to in the business as Ridley Grahams. He writes, he draws Ridley Grahams all the time and his drawing is astonishing. If you look at his storyboards, I mean, he is a trained artist. He can do this stuff really fast, which is why they start calling them Ridley-Grams because they're like telegrams.

One of the things that happens, he says at the beginning of that conversation that he's done lots of interviews, which obviously he does because this is a big film, but it does mean that sometimes he was answering questions that I hadn't actually asked. So for example, when he was talking about going to art school and drawing and painting exactly like you were talking about, what I wanted him, and I was talking about the opening few minutes, which is an animation of like the key points of the first Gladiator film. And I thought that was a very interesting way of reminding us of those key moments. But he didn't answer that at all. And that answer was so long, I thought,

I can't go, we can't go back. We can't go back to where it was. Because he was telling us lots of interesting stuff, but I just thought it was a very interesting way of going, oh, yeah, yeah, okay. I remember that. But it's done in this beautiful animation anyway. We've got some correspondence on it already. Gladiator 2, take it away. Okay. Well, so first Gladiator comes out in 2000 written by David Franzoni, John Logan, William Nicholson from a story by Franzoni. Up until the point that it's out, everyone thinks it's going to be a complete disaster because no one does sword and sandals.

Goes on to be a huge hit, wins five Oscars including best film and best actor for Russell Crowe. 2001, Franzoni is reported as being in negotiations to write either a prequel or a sequel. There's a question over there for Russell Crowe's involvement. 2002, John Logan's back on board. Apparently, Scott at that point wanted the movie to be about the corruption of Rome. Crowe wanted the movie to be about him. He wanted to be in it. He went to Nick Cave, of Nick Cave fame, and said, can you write a script? Nick Cave said, didn't you die in Gladiator? Russell Crowe said, yeah, sort that out.

Nick Cave then wrote a script, which is on the internet. You can find it. Which apparently at one point they wanted to call Christkiller. Nick Cave said he enjoyed writing it very much because he knew that no one would ever make it. Here is Nick Cave's description. Maximus goes to purgatory, is sent down by the gods who are dying in heaven because there's this one god, there's this Christ character down on earth who's gaining popularity. So the many gods are dying. They send gladiator back to kill Christ and all his followers. He becomes this eternal warrior and it ends up with this 20 minute war scene which follows all the wars in history right up to Vietnam and all that sort of stuff. It was wild, a stone-cold masterpiece. Crow said, don't like it, mate, so went out the window. 2006, DreamWorks goes to Paramount,

everything goes on hold. 2017, reports that Gladiator 2 is back on with Crow involved in a new script by Peter Craig. By November 2023, David Scarpa, who worked on Napoleon, is on the script. By this point, it centres on Lucius as the survivor of the original film. The credits are now screenplayed David Scarpa, story Peter Craig Scarpa, characters by Franzoni. A couple of decades after the original, Lucius, played by Paul Mescal, son of Lucilla, Connie Nelson, and Max was living in Numidia with his wife and child, who he loses when the Romans turn up. Led by Marx, Cassius played by Pedro Pascal, he's taken prisoner and then he becomes a gladiator owned by Macanus, who is played in scene-stealing fashion by Denzel Washington. He's a former slave who now has his own plans to

overturn the young emperor's caracula and geta. Barry Kiyogan was originally cast as caracula. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that properly. Anyway, now played by Fred Hetchingham. These are the weasel twins who are like the emperors. The weasel twins, that's right. one of them was originally played by, was originally cast as Barrick Hjogen. And then the story was that Barrick Hjogen left that to go off and do Bird, the Andre Arnold film, which he's actually not in that much. Now, it is worth saying that you mentioned that animation. There is more than a bit of

Caligula in all of this. Caligula, The Ultimate Cut starts with an animated sequence, which actually weirdly pre-echoes this. I'm not suggesting for one minute that Ridley Scott watched Caligula. It's just interesting that both of them do scene setting through animation. The other thing is they both involve an emperor who is crazy, who makes an animal a key part of his government. In the case of Caligula, it's Incitatus the horse. In the case of this, it's the little monkey that he's obsessed with. But that beginning, the animated beginning of Gladiator 2, which looks like an extension of the Scott Free logo.

You know, you get that kind of weird Scott Free logo that we all see animated, and then it goes into, I think that's done rather well. So Lucius agrees to fight for Denzel Washington's character in return for a chance to kill the guy who brought the army over. So lost family, leaders turned slaves turned leaders, strength and honor, lots of men in an arena hitting each other with swords, this time with added sea battles and killer monkeys. And incidentally, in the killer monkey sequence, it does turn into a science fiction film, because I don't know what those animals were.

No. But they didn't look like anything that ever lived on Earth. Correct. Paul Meskell, who in that interview, Ridley Scott, compared to Richard Harris and Albert Finney, which is quite the comparison. He's a great actor, as we know, and he looks fabulous with his t-shirt off. And everyone knows that, you know, apparently people very much enjoy looking at him with his shirt off and there's a lot of that. Pedro Pascal's good, but Denzel Washington steals every single scene as this kind of wily slave turned noble tradesman who's got designs on power.

And look at my rug, stroke my glove. Look at my drapes and you know really Scott saying that thing about well you know a billionaire who wants to take over the throne of Rome is that familiar you know but let's not talk about politics well the thing is is but that this character is much more interesting than any of the characters in contemporary politics it's fantastic the way that he carries that role and if it weren't for him, I think the film would have a really big problem in completely engaging you. The action sequences are action-packed. If you're going to go and see Gladiator 2, and I imagine it will be a big hit, go and see it on the biggest screen possible.

If they're doing sea battles in the Coliseum and space monkeys, you want to see that on the biggest possible screen. The reason that that's the case is also because if you stop to think about it, you do start to think, okay, well, there isn't really any depth there. What there is is a bunch of elements. I mean, like in the way that Joker 2, Folly Adur alienated a huge audience

because it wasn't what they expected. Gladiator 2 literally does what it says on the tin. It is Gladiator 2 and all those elements that you think you should have in a Gladiator film, here they are. The idea that he shot it in 51 days is astonishing. I know he said he's got 11 cameras running at the same time, but still. I love the fact that in that interview, he said he didn't really care about accents as long as it's working, which might explain Jared Leto in House

of Gucci. Oh, that's true. Yes. Which you didn't bring up, incidentally. So, I mean, I think I enjoyed it. I don't think it has much depth. And I think it does feel like a project that came after 50 versions of scripts were written and abandoned and all the rest of it. There is a part of me that wishes, in the same way that I always wanted to see Vincent Ward's take on Alien 3, the wood planet and the monks, although no one could ever really make that, planet and the monks, although no one can ever really make that. I would pay good money to see Maximus Goes to Hell as written by Nick Cave, but in the absence of that, this is its crowd-pleasing spectacle with a great performance by Denzel Washington, a very good performance by Paul

Meskell, who looks fantastic with his shirt off, some big romping action set pieces, some complete madness, particularly with the space monkeys. I know they're not from space. But the issue is the trouble with the madness pieces is that they are moments where you go hang on a minute. And I think that's probably it. So yes, these monkeys that have been bred with dogs, what is these kind of strange space creatures? That's odd. Later on, there are sharks in the arena swimming underwater. You go, hang on a minute. As you said, that is like, since Riddy was upset about a particular review, putting sharks

in the Coliseum is asking people to say that you've jumped the shark. It is very much so anyway, but I mean, it's, you know, I think it's hugely enjoyable. I'm just not quite sure why those moments are there because they didn't, you know, they weren't needed. But Denzel is just, he's just on fire, isn't he? And he's so enjoying the role. He's so, and it was, you know, that thing when, as Ridley said, when he moves the fabric in a certain way, it's almost like a dancer. In a way, I just think I just want that performance. But I would also say, if you enjoy Gladiator 2, and many people will because it's a big, romping, head-banging spectacular, watch Caligula, the ultimate cup.

Mason- In my head, Sir Ridley Scott, I've imagined Sir Ridley Scott saying to Paul Maskell, okay, we're speaking kind of Southern English, okay? And Paul says yes. So he then says to Pedro Pascal, we're going to do sort of English. So Pedro says, okay. And then he says to Denzel Washington, we're going to do English. And then Denzel punches him and says, no, I'm not doing that.

I'm just going to do my own voice. An interesting email from Melinda Roberts. In my first email, I explained how we managed to maintain the code of conduct when watching our son on screen in the 2018 Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom, even though we wanted to whoop and cheer and we wanted to be forgiven for breaking the code of conduct. Code of conduct. If I remember rightly, you said it would have been fair enough in such a moment of parental proudness to break the code.

So now here we are again, our proud parent podium. That's where we are. Our son, Zach Roberts is a stunt man who has worked his way up in the film world with great attitude, hard work and dogged determination. We are eagerly awaiting the premiere of Gladiator 2, in which he is the stunt double for Paul Maskell. We aim to persist in respecting the code of conduct when we go to see the film on the

big screen there. It may be hard to totally restrain ourselves. I think when you see him, you're entitled to stand up and give him a round of applause. We have just returned from Zach's wedding in Mexico to the wonderful Joanna Bennett, an amazing stunt woman. Wow, there's a great story there with stunt kids, presumably at some stage. And Joanne is the doubled for Brie Larson and many other accomplished actors. As an aside, I would like to make a comment with regard to the Schubert-ness effect recently discussed on the show. While in Mexico, we returned from the rather lovely Puerto Vallarta Botanical Gardens on the local bus. My husband, him indoors retired GP, foster carer and church caretaker, Mick Roberts, sat in a seat, left more than a little warm by the previous occupant shall we say warm, wet and

odorous. Thanks for the show and a shout out to my sister and fellow listener Claire Simmons. So anyway, so when you go and see Gladiator 2, appreciate the stunt work of Zach Roberts, who is doing the work of Paul Mescal. Very good. Fantastic. And it may well be in that case that it's Zach Roberts who looks fantastic with his shirt off. And can I just add one other point about Gladiator 2? Derek Jacobi, he's there and then he isn't and then he is and it's sticky. Yes. And I'm just thinking Claudius, I remember, is he going to do some of that? No, he didn't do that. But if it's Rome, it should be Claudius. Anyway, it's fun. It's big romping fun. It's blokes hitting each other.

Correspondent to codemo.com. It's the ads in a minute. First, let's step with a certain sense of trepidation, but gay abandon also into the laughter lift. Oh dear. Gay Abandon also into the laughter lift. Oh dear. I see this first joke is way, way too soon. Okay. Hey Mark, why did Kamala Harris lose the election? She lacked conviction. She lacked a conviction. Like 34 convictions. A very curious thing happened in our local cocktail bar in Showbiz North London this week. A very curious thing. There we were enjoying our beverages when a screwdriver walked in and the barman says, hello there, how strange, we've got a drink named after you. What a coincidence, it says. You got a drink called Derek? Anyway, Mark, if I ever win the lottery, I guarantee everyone around me will be rich because I'll be moving to Switzerland. Thank you very much. You know there's another version of that joke about the screwdriver, don't you?

Is this in the script? No, but I'm just saying there is a version where a teacher walks into the bar and he says, I'll have a teacher's. And then a white horse walks into a bar and he says, I'll have a white horse. And then a baby seal walks into the bar and I'm not telling you the rest of the joke. We'll be back after this. I'm Indra Varma and in the latest season of The Spy Who, we open the file on Daphne Park, the spy who killed the Prime Minister. As the Belgian Congo gains its independence, Officer Park sets out to build a spy network.

Together they're about to go to new extremes to keep Congo free of communists. Follow the Spy Who now wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we are looking at the life of the British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill.

It's fair to say he's a complex and controversial character. Almost 150 years since his birth, how does his legacy hold up today? Follow Legacy Now wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad free on Wondery+. Excellent. Very good show all round, I think, particularly from you, Mark. Thank you. You're on tip-top form, looking forward to our Christmas show in a few weeks. It's going to be fab.

Interesting. Are you going to wear a Christmas anything? Should we be wearing Christmas jumpers? No. Will you be wearing Christmas anything? No. Should I just come dressed as a teenager? Yes. That's what people want us to look like us. Somebody wrote me, there was a picture on the Intraweb because I met Nick Cave, who wrote

Christgela after, because I'm friends with Warren Ellis and I went to see Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds with Warren Ellis play again, that gig that I'd been to before in Copenhagen. Afterwards I was with Warren anyway, so I met Nick Cave. I'd never met Nick Cave before, although we've been in touch through the internet. Somebody took a photograph of us and it was Nick Cave wearing his suit and me wearing my Harrington. Somebody said, I bet you wish you'd worn your suit since you only have two looks, the suit and the Harrington. And I thought, well,

I didn't know I was going to meet him, did I? Yeah. But should you have worn your suit, which was in Waterloo Station, lost property? I hadn't lost it by that point. They were the only clothes that you had on you. Okay. Well, while we're talking Christmas, what have you got for us? Christmas Eve in Miller's Point, which is the new film from Tyler Thomas Termina, who made Ham on Rye and who, according to the press notes, puts his uncanny cinematic stamp on a holiday movie. Four generations of the Balsano family gathering together for what

may be the last family home in Long Island. This is set in 2006, apparently. Aunt, uncle, grandmother, they all eat, drink, get cross with each other. Group starts to sort of fall apart. We learn that the matriarch of the family is in need of care. They're squabbling about selling the house, putting her in the home. Meanwhile, young members of the family go off and do young people stuff. Definitely a family affair. Keeping it in the family cast includes Francesca Sosco Sessi, daughter of Martin, Sawyer Spielberg, son of Stephen. Cast also includes Elsie Fisher who's been great in the past, not here. Maria Dizia who was great in Martha, Marcy Mae Marlene, not here. Ben Shenkman, Greg Turkington, Michael Serra is also a producer.

So it starts with Serra and Turkington as two comedy cops, speed camera-ing in hilarious deadpan silence. And then it moves into typical American indie fashion, into a house full of people who clearly mean an awful lot to the writer and director, but about whom I could not give a space monkeys. Essentially, this is like being in an annoying family reunion, but it's not your family. You don't know them, you don't care about them. Everything about the film,

which incidentally has been critically quite well received in the manner of American indie cinema. Everything about the film is annoying, from the characters to the visual palette to the air of smug certainty about how kookily entertaining and yet tragically heroic they all are. Sarah and Turkington are particularly terrible playing cops who appear to be wearing sort of dress up costumes as cops like they couldn't even be bothered to actually make themselves look like cops because hey everyone's just going to be so crazy about the fact that this thing is so quirky. It's

just going to be fabulous and you know and it's quirky and these people are quirky and they're like really really interesting and quirky and offbeat. And the soundtrack is this jukebox onslaught that goes all the way through the film of like, um, do what bangers. And at one point they play, Hey, rock and roll by she waddy waddy. Now imagine this, this is a film with loads of do-wop and she waddy waddy on the soundtrack. And I hate it. Imagine how bad it must be to make me dislike that. Watching this made Margot at the wedding seem like a walk in the park. The entire film gave me a headache. I longed for an asteroid to fall out of the sky and wipe the entire neighborhood off the planet so I didn't have to spend any more time. This was American independent cinema at its most insufferable. On Rotten Tomatoes, it has an 83% fresh rating with a summation of reviews saying,

capturing both the cheer and the frustration that accompany holiday gatherings, Christmas Eve in Miller's Point is a Yuletide Chronicle that rings true. And if that's not proof that Rotten Tomatoes isn't worth the paper, it's not written on, then I don't know what it is. I saw it with a fellow critic who had been to see it before, really didn't like it, but was going back to give it a second chance in case he had misjudged it the first time around. And at the end of it, I virtually shook his hand because that was service above and beyond. It was absolutely insufferable. But hey, quirky American independent cinema. Come and spend time with all these crazy, kooky people. They're strange and sad and a bit... Honestly, I literally wanted a very big asteroid to knock them all off the face of the planet.

I hated it. Okay. Might give that a miss. That's all right though, isn't it? I'm allowed to hate an American independent movie. Yeah. That critic who went to see it a second time. Can I suggest maybe you see it a second time just to make sure that you really, really hate it? Because on the second viewing, maybe you might really, really, really, really hate it. Yeah, I'm not going back there. That's the end of take one. Yeah, I'm not going back there. That's the end of take one.

It's been a Sony Music Entertainment production. This week's team, Jen, Eric, Josh, Vicki, Zachy and Heather. Producer is Jen, redactor is Simon. If you're not already following the pod, what on earth are you on about? Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Mark, what is our movie of the week? Well, for Space Monkeys and Paul Mescal with his shirt off, Gladiator 2. Thank you very much indeed for listening. Take two has landed adjacent to this podcast already. We'll talk

soon.