Lions Led By Donkeys Podcast - Episode 18 - The War of 1812 Part 3: let's all pretend this didn't happen

Episode Date: September 24, 2018

On this episode we close out the war of 1812 with style! Joe is joined by Flynn while Nick is away and we discuss the ending to the most pointless war in American history (psych!) Our show will always be free but if you think what we do is worth a buck throw it to us here: https://www.patreon.com/lionsledbydonkeys even donating 1$ will get bonus content and you'll get to hear our new stuff before everyone else. You can follow the show @lions_by Follow Joe at @jkass99 Follow Nick at @nickcasm1

Welcome to the Hello and welcome to another episode of Lions Led by Donkeys podcast. I am your host Joe and with me today is Sergeant Richardson. Hi. It hasn't come out quite yet or maybe it will be out by the time this episode is out. I'm not really sure the timelines right now, but she actually joined us for our first Patreon bonus episode about the Battle of Hogwarts. So donate a dollar and you can listen to more of her. So this is part three of the War of 1812. So I'd recommend not jumping right into it.

Go listen to the other two parts. If you want to live dangerously, you do you. I'm not here to stop you. So we left off on part two, where Admiral Cockburn burnt down Washington. More specifically, he burnt down the White House and several other government buildings. He also disassembled a newspaper building by hand because he didn't want to burn it down. So this is in the middle of that because we ran out of time.

I didn't feel like forcing anybody to listen to a two hour long podcast of my voice. I feel like that's something that they might put together in Guantanamo Bay. So since I have a new host with me here today, what do you know about the War of 1812? Absolutely nothing. I'm just here for the learning. It's my most reliable stand-in for Nick because he is on vacation and is apparently not able to use a calendar.

I actually am taking a history class right now that is from 1650 to current times, and I'm pretty sure we covered the War of 1812 and just none of it stuck with me. I'm much better used as an expert in Hogwarts history than in regular american history yeah we'll keep you on the rules for our history of magical warfare series um so uh we're going to start right where we left off and less than a day after the attack began on dc a sudden very heavy

thunderstorm some people think it may have possibly been a hurricane put out all the fires. It also spun off a tornado that passed through the center of the capital and set down right in the middle of Constitution Avenue. It lifted up two cannons and then dropped them several yards away and killed several British troops and American citizens alike. Following the storm, the British troops returned to their ships, many of which were badly damaged by the storm. There's some debate regarding the effect of the storm on the occupation. While some assert that the storm forced their retreat, it seems likely from their destructive and arsonist actions before the storm and the written orders from Cochrane to destroy and lay waste that their intention was merely to raise the city and not to occupy it for an extended period of time this might be part of a mythos that surrounds this that now it's called the storm that saved washington kind of like um when the mongols tried to invade japan they were chased off by a storm that became what is known as the kamikaze so we're trying to create

some like mythos around this when the british probably weren't going to occupy D.C. They had no intention to do that. Otherwise, they wouldn't burn it to the ground around their ears. That's just bad policy. So the rain sizzled and cracked and nearly charred the walls of the White House and ripped away at the structures the British had no plans to destroy, such as the pet office.

The storm may have actually exacerbated the already dire situation for Washington, D.C. So the storm that saved D.C. also created a fuckload of water damage. Well, I mean, that's pretty much what soldiers do, too. You go in to save something or to fix something, but you just really create a way bigger hole than you started with. Yeah. I mean, at least the British used the soldiers as the one thing that they're good at and that's just wrecking shit um so uh that's right if you remember on their last episode we talked about the siege of erie uh where the brit or the american regular army actually forced back a force of british regulars fresh off napoleonic wars uh true veterans not a whole bunch of canadian fur trappers

um and by the time that the siege had ended uh and the americans triumphantly emerged from their fort they found out that their capital got burned down to the ground behind them talk about a let down is canadian fur trapper like a racial slur against canadians is that it's not uh their army was literally full of Canadian fur trappers. You should really go back and listen to those episodes. Well, it was an irregular militia with some British regulars, regular officers kind of commanding it.

This is a time where the entire population of Canada was less than half a million. And they used Native American, they call them First Nations in Canada, Indian troops. It was not a good army, but it was enough to kick our ass. But, you know, by the time the Americans have their first real victory against true British veterans, their capital is burning down behind them.

So it's like we talk about it a lot. And it kind of became our slogan because I think I use this term for Douglas Haig. If he was an ice cream flavor, he'd be pralines and dick. Pralines and dick. The defenders of Fort Erie. So after raising Washington, the British moved on to their next target, Baltimore. And for some reason, unlike Washington, the nation's capital, Baltimore is heavily fortified and defended. Washington, D.C. at this time was not fortified at all and was hardly defended by a group of militia who were awful at their jobs.

Kind of. I understand that Baltimore is a port city and is worth a lot of money for trade. But like strategically, you don't want your capital to burn to the ground. So the majority of their defenses were centered around Fort McHenry, which is very fortified and full of thousands of American regular soldiers. The Americans launched a successful delaying action at the Battle of Port New Point on September 12th which gave the americans inside the fort time to actually prepare for the attack um and the american militia who actually did a good job at delaying the british force actually killed major general robert ross who commanded the uh battle of bladensburg and captured dc and then burnt it to the ground uh so i guess the militia were good for something.

And Robert Ross actually has a really interesting history that I don't super go into here, but it was like the second his force stepped off the boat, he got shot in the face. It's not a great history then. Well, you know, the guy survived years of fighting Napoleon in Europe, like fighting actual superpowers. I imagine that would be like

um you know surviving fighting in world war ii and then like getting shot by the taliban in afghanistan if you met rough yeah like bad fucking luck i mean there's a lot of years between that right like if it was like a captain america situation where we got pumped full of super serum and never aged this This should be a movie. I think it's just called Captain America. Oh. So after a few probing actions, the British found the American defensives to actually be much better prepared

than they could have possibly imagined. And after the beginning of this war, the Brits didn't think a lot about the American army. I mean, at one point in a battle in Canada, 8,000 American soldiers got routed by 300 British or British and Canadian militiamen effectively. So they're not thought of very highly. So they're like,

Oh, holy shit. Look, they built earthworks. It's like when we are in Afghanistan and whenever like the Afghan soldiers showed up to work, actually wearing boots. Oh yeah. Wow.

Good job guys. Yeah. Impressive. We didn't know you could do that. Or any average soldier does any of their average daily work. Right. Thanks for showing up on time. You did well today.

Good job buddy. Except in this situation, there was 10,000 soldiers and hundreds of cannons were lined up to face them. And they were secured behind three miles of earthworks, which is kind of like an old timey trench, but also kind of like just giant berms, which were enough to stop musket balls and cannons of the day. The British decided a frontal assault wouldn't work. Surprise. And instead retired back to their ships and they decided to siege the Americans in a surrender using their cannons. retired back to their ships and they decided to siege the americans in a surrender using their cannons um so on the 13th of september 19 british ships began pounding the fort with congreve

rockets and mortars uh now these congreve rockets they're um obviously they're the rockets that are talked about the national anthem uh but they're not very good weapons they like it's hard to make a modern day explanation of this but they didn't have a lot of explosive punch the but they would scream when they flew through the air so it was kind of like meant to mentally fuck with soldiers i mean if one if you had the really bad luck to have a congreve rocket fall on you and die you were one of the few uh but they they were meant to be loud i mean they would wound and they would kill but they're meant to be loud demoralizing weapons um but they would set shit on fire too i mean and they weren't very accurate because this is 18th century rocket technology they're just lucky if you go in the right direction would they be similar to like

the mortars that come in on posts and just land and don't do anything? Kind of. In Afghanistan and stuff like that? I honestly think those mortars killed significantly more people. But I do know it's kind of the same effect. These Americans, if they've been fighting the British at this point, because war has been going on for a couple of years at this point, they kind of got indolated with the sound of the screaming rocket so it didn't affect them anymore um and then and you've you know but then the new uh regulars the new draftees come in and they start hearing the screaming they're going to

be terrified kind of like when you're getting ready to leave deployment and um they mortar you and you just go outside for a cigarette when you watch the new soldiers like sprint like they're under machine gun fire to the bunkers yeah i feel like that is something that is that can be brought to current and really similar where you have everybody running into the cement bunkers and the older people that have been on kandahar base or wherever for a year already just kind of stand there and watch them come in yeah and um that's another facet of this kind of warfare is like line formations you're you're gonna stand dozens of meters away from the guy who's trying to kill you and standing in the open you're gonna shoot at him um the major um point when it comes to like training soldiers uh more militia for that matter um and this kind of

warfare is um i know in the in the old prussian way which is how the revolutionary army was trained by baron von steuben but um not necessarily so much with these guys because this army's not necessarily as good but it's was to effectively control your soldiers through fear and violence to get them to stay in line and get shot at. So it worked. It worked for hundreds of years. I mean, things that work aren't necessarily good all the time, though. So in the next 27 hours, the 19 British ships would fire between 1500 and500 and 1,800 shells and rockets at the fort. And this action actually inspired a poem by an American named Francis Scott Key, who was on board the Royal Navy ship negotiating a prisoner exchange at the time.

That name sounds familiar. Yeah. And there's actually, you know, his poem was actually titled The Defense of Fort McHenry, which, of course, would go on to become the Star Spangled Banner and the United States National Anthem. Now, if you had a guess, because I didn't actually know this, I had to look this up. When did this song or poem or whatever become our national anthem? You probably think I'm like immediately after this war, right? I definitely thought way before this war, like back when we actually became a country. Yeah.

Well, it was actually not until 1931 wow this is post-world war one like somewhat recent yeah um and there's i mean as far as like world history goes yeah um and there's actually a a little bit of mythos behind this battle as well um the flag so uh the flag you know he said the flag is still there well the flag was shredded to pieces and uh the poem was commenting that they never took the flag down um and there was also uh after the british uh decided that this isn't working and they pulled back they pulled the flag down and replaced it and uh there's a mythos that the flag that they put up was huge um to laugh at the british and it's not actually true while the flag was large it was just the only that they put up was huge to laugh at the British. And that's not actually true. While the flag was large, it was just the only one they had laying around

that wasn't full of fucking trap holes. But I like it better when they're like flying up a giant middle finger to the fleet who can beat them. And as I just kind of ruined, the bombardment hardly damaged the fort at all and killed only 30 of the Americans inside. I'm sure at least one of the soldiers that was raising the new flags was in their mind or out loud thinking this is one big middle finger to the british yeah yeah because i've actually done that myself when we went out somewhere

and um it's actually chronicled in my book the hooligans of kandahar i'm pretty sure all of you are sick of me hearing talk about it plug yeah uh we were told not to put a flag up at an outpost because it would let the Taliban know that we were there. That's what we wanted. So we put the flag up and the Taliban suicide bombed us. So whoops. Weird. The higher ups knew what they were talking about with that one. It was the one time in the year they were right.

I'll say that. So only about 30 of the 10 000 american soldiers uh inside were killed another small footnote here uh one of the american soldiers who survived the shelling was a young private named james buchanan who'd go on to become president in 1857 and would be just an awful president and had a very troubled time in office to say the least. He is known. Not many people who don't study the Civil War know a whole lot about James Buchanan, but he is pretty much the reason we had a civil war. So maybe the British should have killed him instead.

Anyway, the British acting under strict orders not to assault the fort unless they thought there were less than 2000 men inside withdrew and pulled their fleet back towards new Orleans. Um, now we're going to take a little break here from the land war, because I know I haven't got a lot of hate on this part. I got mostly hate on shit that I went off script on and was talking to, um, Nick with. So we're getting away from land.

We're going to talk about the, the naval war, but also I will recognize some of the things I was wrong about. One, Les Miserables did not take place during the French Revolution. Thank you, Nick. That took place during a different French Revolution against the Orléans throne several decades later. So, far bad. I am one non-expert in French Revolution and even less of an expert in musicals.

Hey, there are a lot of wars going on all around this time period. And especially French Revolutions. There's a lot of them. Yeah. And if you ever if you haven't and you ever want to study something that is incredibly confusing and you'll never get to the end of study the French Revolutions. It's great. Yeah. So we're going to talk about the naval war.

The Royal Navy was easily the strongest navy in the world at this point and they did not wipe the floor at the american navy as one would think um uh you don't hear a whole lot about the naval war you hear uh little incidents of like this is how the uss constitution became known as old ironsides and actually how um an army unit got their fucking nickname uh that i was in at first armored but uh and that has many streets and gyms on fort hood yeah and knox actually really yeah uh but uh you'd think that the royal navy who had defeated the napoleonic navy and kept all of europe in check would just steamroll over the American Navy. And that was not true.

The majority of the Royal Navy, like its army, was far away blockading France, leaving only their North American squadron to prosecute the war. That one squadron was equal to the entirety of the American Navy at the time, but their ships were a little different. Their British squadron numbered one small ship of the line seven frigates nine smaller sloops and brigs and five schooners um what is a sloop and what is a schooner it's uh different sizes of ship uh they're back then they had names generally it it amounts to how many cannons they have uh how big their displacement is in the

water how many men they can hold um but good to know they're all really debatable like a frigate to the royal navy is a smaller ship than the united states navy to the point that like the british navy called them super frigates because in america just had like a a huge frigate building controversy for funding because this is early 1800s. The mentality of the revolution is still in everybody's mind where we need to keep the government very small. We can't have this huge standing army and navy because they'll be used to oppress us. The individual states don't want to be involved. So building this huge navy was pretty controversial at the time kind of hilarious when you think about it now but you know uh the american navy built these huge

frigates um one of them was the now legendary united state uss constitution who earned like i said earned a nickname the uh the ironsides because british sailors watched in horror as their shots just bounced harmlessly off its hull. I don't know a ton about naval history, but it has something to do with how the struts were built, the kind of wood it was built out of. We just built our ships differently because we didn't have anybody helping us. Our old allies, the Ancien Résumé of France, is now balls deep in the revolution. And now it's Napoleonic France who aren't nearly as big of allies to us. So we kind of just figured out how to build ships ourselves.

And so they all end up completely different. The American Navy actually did not end up being the main threat to the Royal Navy though. Instead it was American privateers. Otherwise it was pretty much thinks state sanctioned pirates. privateers otherwise known as pretty much thinks state-sanctioned pirates um the privateers managed to take 1300 british flag ships both military and trade ships compared to only 200 that the american navy took um we went into a little before but being a privateer was a much better life than being a sailor in the navy um the pay was better the the pay was better. The, uh, the recreation was better. I don't know exactly what they did for recreation.

They had to do less awful chores on board. Um, you could just quit instead of being press ganged into a different Navy. It was just all around a better life. Um, uh, the Brits were forced to travel and giant convoys for protection, uh,

to kind of like scare off these privateers. So the privateers didn't want to fight anybody. They wanted to board your ship, steal your shit, take your ship and get rid of you, put you on like a little lifeboat and kick you off. They didn't want to fight anybody. They wanted what you were carrying.

Um, because it's, so did they kill people? I mean, they did. They certainly weren't saints. These are a few generations removed from like incredibly dangerous pirates, but,

um, you know, they, they wanted what you were carrying because at the time, the Royal Navy actually had such a complete blockade for the most part on America that the economy had completely collapsed.

We couldn't export anything. So what better supplement than stealing the British shit? And not to mention that funds are military at the time, which we're pretty much just slapping together as we go so at this point the military or the at least the army had been um established for well over 60 years though well it goes back to the the thinking that we don't need a strong central government and regular army we have state militias. It goes back to one of the reasons that the revolution happened. And that was, you know,

a huge standing British army being quartered in people's houses. You couldn't say no to, that's why you have that really weird clause in the constitution. Like soldiers will not be quartered in people's homes without I'm going to sound really fucking stupid here. Cause I'm just pulling this out of my ass and I did not research this part, uh, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sound really fucking stupid here. Cause I'm just pulling this out of my ass. And I did not research this part, but you know,

it's like you have to pay someone and they have to give you permission. No. Yeah. That actually is something that I retained from my history class. Um, that in the revolution, um, there were pretty much using and abusing everybody.

And so, and that's why they made the law that you could not, you, you could not force somebody to quarter soldiers in your home and stuff like that because soldiers were just pretty much taking everything they could. Yeah. I mean, soldiers are soldiers throughout time.

Yeah. Um, and actually, uh, Nick, uh, had a little anecdote about that, that,

that, that the U S government completely violated that in the, that in a certain part of L.A. during World War II. There's a huge air base there of some kind, and they knew a place to put them, and they didn't have housing. The military bases look much different than they do now. And there's like, yeah, we're going to take these houses. And people are like, but these are our houses. They're like, yeah, we're going to take these houses. Yeah.

Sorry, bro. Yeah. And people are like, but these are our houses. They're like, yeah, we're going to take these houses. Yeah. Sorry, bro. Yeah. So.

Due to massive the massive size of the British merchant fleet, though, like even though the privateers took all these ships and all this cargo, they actually only affect about seven percent of the total British fleet. That's just how big the Royal Navy was. There was there was no world that existed where the our Navy was going to beat their Navy, especially not then. The majority of British naval operations were actually based on the blockade of American ports, but they actually left New England

alone. Interesting side part. Why is that? Well, even though they were actively at war, New England openly traded with england throughout the entire war um this had a lot to do with an incredible anti-war atmosphere in new england and there was actually um people were afraid of new england might secede from the union um it was never really serious like they never put a bill in there was never like people ready to go to war over it but they

talked about it because they didn't want to be involved this is why nobody even knows that new england even exists anymore well i mean people know about the patriots i guess they get that going for them the worst sports fans on earth though so and those foodstuffs that New England traded with old England, England, Britain were actually used directly to feed the British army fighting Napoleon in Spain during the Peninsular War. So it kind of fucked over our own allies in this one, because the war in 1812 would only be going well as long as Britain was distracted fighting Napoleon. The second England was like, you know, this is getting kind of out of hand. We're just going to crush America. It would have happened.

All they had to do is put their foot down and we would have lost for sure. But it didn't happen. The British blockade was so effective that by the end of the war, most of the American fleet was confined to port and completely unable to leave. If they would have pulled out, they would have got shot. By the end of the war, most of the American fleet was confined to port and completely unable to leave.

If they would have pulled out, they would have got shot. It took such a toll on the American economy that exports dropped from $114 million in 1811, the year before the war started, to $20 million in 1814. So America was on the verge of bankruptcy and had to take out loans to continue the war. How much do you think $20 million from 1812 is today? Still not enough to run a country. Maybe enough to run a state. I don't know. I didn't run the numbers.

But it was a sizable amount. And also, outside of France, England was America's number one export customer. But don't worry. Trade wars are easy and easy to win right uh so uh during all this american native and british forces clashed in the south american forces under the command of general james wilkinson who was actually a spanish spy who was r in $4,000 a year and an old timey money for his services to the Spanish crown took the mobile area of what is modern day Alabama. So, um,

he was an American commission general, uh, who was actually a Spanish spy fighting in the South. Um, I, I don't know how that happened, but it happened. Just so many things going on with this guy and he, and he goes to Alabama. Well, uh, I, I don't know how that happened, but it happened. Just so many things going on with this guy and he, and he goes to Alabama.

Well, uh, you, you have to think this is, um, where this is the age of expansion. America wants to get bigger, but I mean, we're in the middle of war. So, uh, now's a better chance there is ever to drive South. Uh, we already have the Northwest territory, which would become, you know, Michigan and Ohio. So you might as well drive South. I saw that face and, uh,

I was Texas doing it in this time. Yeah. You're welcome for your independence. Um, so no, uh, obviously mobile is part of modern day Alabama, but back then it was actually part of West Florida.

Uh, this would be the only permanent, even worse, right? Um, sorry, Floridians, if you're listening if you're listening they have enough issues they don't need us shitting on them too this would actually be the only permanent territorial gain that the US would get

during the entire conflict is taking over Alabama so there's that ouch the actions in the south would lead to a conclusive battle at the Battle of New Orleans. Sorry, New Orleans. New Orleans. That's one word, I guess.

I'll never be able to fake that I'm way too Northern. I'm just lucky not to have a Canadian accent anymore. That is lucky. I've heard your sister talk. Hers is bad. Yeah, it's it's it's kind of funny. Like a lot of people from like we know a lot of people from like the dirty, dirty South and we'll go

home and come back and they sound like they have a mouthful of fucking peanut butter. And when I go home for a prolonged period of time and visit my family, I'll come back and sound like I just watched too much hockey. Yeah, you always did. You always did talk about the Southern accent. And then I finally went north one time and was able to meet your family.

Some of it's pretty bad. You can't talk about the Southern accent. We could argue that further, but I don't feel like chasing off any of my Southern fans. All three of you, unless my dogs count, then I have four. So this, if you noticed um now we haven't quite got to the peace process but you will find out later that this battle

actually took place after the peace treaty was signed um with the british under the command of edward pickingham meeting the americans under the command of Edward Pickingham meeting the Americans under the command of Brevet Major General Andrew Jackson, another former or soon to be president. This I swear this war has to have more future presidents than any other war. It's like every battle involves either an officer who become a president, a private who would become a president or somebody else. Also, you don't hear a lot anymore about brevet ranks um brevet if people are not aware is kind of like we need this position to be filled by somebody but it only can be filled by somebody of a certain rank so you'll you're now a major general um hopefully you earn it and you get to keep it because like at the end you can say you know

what we're taking the brevet away you go back to being a colonel or whatever it was you were before doesn't exist anymore I guess it kind of is a corporal in the army but so the battle actually took place five miles away from New Orleans where the modern-day town of Clement stands I might be pronouncing the wrong people from Louisiana. I'm sorry. But it's still the battle of New Orleans because New Orleans existed. The British slowly made their way around the city in the day prior, but Jackson, it turned out wasn't happy with sitting around and waiting for them to show

up. Jackson met the British at the Valiere plantation while not winning. Jackson showed the British that the upcoming battle was going to be much harder than they thought it was going to be. And it caused the British to move forward much more cautiously than before. And it bought Jackson time for his army to dig in and get ready for the battle. And dig he would. The earthworks were so large that the soldiers christened them the Jackson Line. And the British would test the quality of those lines beginning an artillery barrage on New Year's Day of 1815.

They would then launch a two-brunged ground assault in the middle of the night. Their attempt at stealth failed, however, and the attacks were repulsed all along the line with the commanding general, Peckinham, being killed in the process. The British would try and try again again armed with ropes and ladders, which kind of blows my mind. They built these walls by hand so large that they had to use ropes and ladders to get over them. That detail would have sucked to be on.

And every single time they'd make it over to the top, the American defenses would kick them right out. A British bugle boy actually scaled a nearby tree to play his heart out, to urge on his comrades while bullets passed through right by his head. And he was captured by the end of the battle and celebrated by the Americans as a hero. Finally,

after a series of failed frontal assaults, the British were forced to withdraw. And it's like something people kind of like gloss over in the times of war around now. And they've gone to the Civil War of bugle boys. They're preteen boys going into battle armed with a fucking horn. Why? Why? It's a morale thing and also so the the my knowledge of army drill and ceremony like it

it shouldn't surprise me right but come on now you have to think um how did armies communicate before radios bugles drums like that but pre-teen boys come on now they're small i don't know and a lot of armies back then had a huge like demi army of camp followers um sometimes this group of camp followers they would be people who fix your boots tailor uniform their prostitutes um kids beggars anybody that i mean through a lot of these areas this army is the number one way to make money kind of like now um except instead of barber shops and shitty fucking restaurants it's people who'd fixed your uniform, car dealerships and payday loan places, cream barbecue.

Those are the good ones. They are, um, and Chinese buffets. Uh, but you know, like they were a giant generator of money. And this is back when, uh, the army wouldn't fix your shit for you. If you're, if your boots tour, your uniform tour, you better go find a tailor. And they were in the camp um sometimes those people would give um uh end up having kids with people living the camp or their family was in the camp and obviously you can't join the military until you're 15 16 back then um and it's a way to make a paycheck. If I had joined the military when I was 15 or 16, this army, well. Just think, a lot of people who fought in World War II were only 15, 16, 17.

They'd just lie. My grandfather joined the army when he was 15. He lied about his age, though. It wasn't legal. And he ended up becoming a Green Beret. He was. He was a Green Beret and retired as a sergeant major. So clearly our weakness in

modern day army is we're not recruiting the 15 year olds so we need to scrape together those child soldiers touche i believe they call them boy scouts now though um ratzy yeah you know when i was 18 or 19 um uh and i was on a tank crew the local boy scout troop came through to come look at our tanks at first like oh that's kind of cool i was a kid i'd love to climb around a tank and then i saw these like little kids hanging out the commanders and like loaders hatch i'm like oh this got hitler youth real fast like i am not okay with this uh they're gonna soon they're gonna get a fucking merit badge for the final solution and I'm not cool taking part in this guys

so anyway Bugle Boy's a hero and the British were kicked back from the Battle of New Orleans after the battle around 500 British soldiers who had been laying around like on the ground just got up they weren't dead or wounded they just laid down

wait what? they were playing dead. I mean, soldiers aren't stupid. So they played possum. Yeah. I mean, you have to think, even though we always say, especially modern day leaders,

I've been on the army for years, but you're still in it. We always say soldiers are stupid. They are to an extent, but they're smart enough to know, like, we're all going to fucking die. Like, you know, it's gone into a little bit...

I mean, I guess everybody has their baser human instincts, but soldiers are stupid. Right. But I mean, especially if your leaders are fleeing, getting shot, bugle boys getting fucked up, and you're obviously not making it over this wall because the three other waves got broken on it, you're not going to take part.

That goes back into what we just talked about it takes a lot of fear and spree decor and morale to keep these dudes in line getting blasted by 50 caliber muskets um i believe in what you're doing right and i mean these guys are a thousand miles away from home fighting in fucking new orleans you know they're just gonna lay down which makes me i haven't heard a lot of this happening from war back then i'm curious how much this actually did happen because it's not like they had medics running around just lay down nobody's gonna look at you twice right and you're wearing red nobody even knows you're bleeding um so they just spring back up and surrendered to the americans

completely unhurt uh british losses in the attack vary. There's a huge anecdotal evidence, and this battle has been blown out of proportion in the modern-day American military history mythos. The Brits say only about 200 soldiers died. I've found American sources say 700 British soldiers died. I've seen some that say 2,000 British soldiers died. I have no idea, uh, what the Americans say. They lost 13 people.

I believe that this being a siege battle behind apparently huge breastworks and fighting people who are trying to climb up the wall at you. But this battle, it, while it is a victory and at this point early in, um, early in American history, uh, any victory against a huge empire

which we would end up turning into generations later is an underline so greatest country in the world yeah uh apparently britain was just trying to make themselves great again by retaking the colonies but um you know nobody knows how many brits died but it was enough for them to decide this was worth it they pulled back uh so I said somewhere between 200 and 2,000. I don't know. It was enough. It's a large gap. Yeah. And this battle became known as the Miracle of New Orleans, with the Americans outnumbered and the city on

verge of being captured. The Ursuline nuns, along with many faithful people in New Orleans, gathered at the Ursuline Convent's chapel before the statue of Our Lady of Prompt Succor. Excuse me? I don't know. I don't know you

Catholics. Every single guest I have in the show is a fucking Catholic. I know I keep doing this. Seems like a you problem. And they're all terrible Catholics. Everybody's a terrible Catholic. I haven't met a great one. Yeah.

Well, the great ones are terrible in different ways uh so they spent the night before the battle praying and crying before the holy statue begging for the virgin mary's intercession in the battle uh because the virgin mary is known for her prompt trigger discipline and direction of combat. On the morning of January 8th, the Reverend William de Borg, who is the vicar general, I don't know, a religious rank, offered mass at the altar

on which the statue of Our Lady of Brunswick had been placed. I'm just going to assume that that's like the chaplain. I don't know. He wasn't in the army. He was a civilian. Well, if he's the vicar general, I'm assuming that's like a chaplain type position.

Oh, Vicar is a Catholic thing, isn't it? Or is it maybe? No, it probably isn't a Catholic thing because I didn't look into this, but I'm pretty sure England wasn't Catholic at the time. I think they're Protestant.

I know there are Vicar's in Catholicism. I, I haven't been Catholic in a long time, so I can't really speak to it. I know I'm going to get chewed up for this one on Twitter, but I did look into the religious aspect, guys. It wasn't important to the battle. I'm just going to assume that this guy is similar as a chaplain because a chaplain could literally be any religion and could support all religions within its ranks. Yeah. And, you know, we had a Buddhist chaplain

in our last unit. Yeah. I've never seen one of those. Mm-hmm. I had a Sikh chaplain. I seen one. He was in my unit and he's a captain

or a major. I don't remember which. And everybody thought he was like one of those foreign officers who came to train. You know, he's wearing ACUs and an ACU turban on. And everybody gave me shit when I saluted him. Like, he was like one of those foreign officers who came to train you know he's wearing ac using an acu turban on and everybody gave me shit when i salute him like he was a fucking

captain guys you fucked up there's only like one or two of them in the entire army there's uh a chaplain or two and there's a surgeon who um was the first person ever given um a waiver for his beard and his hair and his turban. They're all aspects of Sikhism. You have to be able to have those. And he was given a, and it was this huge thing in the Army Times years ago. And like,

oh, they're letting the goddamn Muslims have beards now because people are too dumb to realize they're two different religions. Of course. Because people don't even realize that even among the Muslims, there are so many different cultures and races and religions. Yeah. Like people don't realize like the most populous Muslim country is not in the Middle East. Right. Well, I, you know, I touched it in my book again, another plug that a lot of soldiers that we were with thought Afghanistan was in the Middle East.

And what is that book called again? The Hooligans of Kandahar. was in the least and what is that book called again the hooligans of kandahar yeah um so uh getting back on topic before i plug my book a fourth time um he was offering mass and uh the prioress of the ursuline convent mother saint marie oliver de vinzen made a vow to have a mass of thanksgiving sung annually should the american forces win because this is a long shot at the time. Also, I know. So I have been also hated on for how I pronounce French words. I am a novice at French at best. And one of our listeners is a former French legionnaire from Britain. And he's like, bro, your French is making me want to stab myself in the ears.

Does this former French legionnaire really call you bro? Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. myself in the ears does this former french legionnaire really call you bro yeah yeah he's like he was in the legion like decades ago uh which is actually kind of cool he was probably in the same time as my grandpa was well hello to you yeah he's gonna be on the show eventually one time and we'll be able to talk to him about the legion but he's like oh your fucking french pronunciation makes me want to die well there's another one for you i'm sorry um and you know this battle's supposed to be long shot they're praying for this uh victory and then at the very moment of communion a courier ran into the chapel and informed all those present that the british had been defeated so i was like oh

the virgin mary came down and stacked bodies in the name of new Orleans. Thanks, Mary. Yeah. Mary, don't fuck around. She's not one to play with. No. She did the kill shot. Turned her pistol side, flintlock pistol sideways. So General Jackson went into the convent himself and thanked the nuns for their prayers and said, quote, by the blessing of the heaven, directing the valor of the troops under my command, one of the most brilliant victories in the annals of war has been obtained the vow

by Mother St. Marie has been faithfully kept until this day so good on you Mother St. Marie so after years of war and no one really gaining anything because you have to think like at this time it was part of the Americans declaration

they wanted to take over Canada also they want to expand west also they want to expand south they've done none of those things they've actually failed at all of them um and britain wanted to secure canada make a buffer zone for the native american soldiers or the first nations uh uh civilizations that kind of make sure the americans couldn't invade Canada again, failed at that. So nobody's gathering any kind of gains here. Finally, the two sides sat down for peace at the city of Ghent and Flanders, which is modern day Belgium. They actually began peace talks in 1814.

And because both actors in the room are mature adults, they quickly broke down to meaningless bickering and arguing. And that's how I think of most diplomatic meetings go. Like they take nowadays, they're going to take their fucking pictures in front of cameras and CNN and Fox and all that shit. And they go into the back rooms and I swear to God, there's somebody there just to make sure they don't swing at each other.

I would imagine so. Even though they're all like old ass crippled white dudes. Like I still think that there's like a referee like, yeah, no going for the throat there, sir. Knowing what I know about higher ranking officials in the military and say our commander-in-chief well the government in general i mean government employees are mature toddlers yes and that

goes for soldiers as well toddlers is is being optimistic as far as soldiers go. Well, the British were insistent about that buffer state that I was talking about. And America demanded that British pay for reparations in the burning of Washington and return all the runaway slaves that had run to British for protection. Bad looking on you, Washington. Actually, neither side agreed to those terms because slavery was pretty much banned in the entirety of the civilized world.oleon actually brought it back in france momentarily before outlawing again um we're pretty much the last country on earth that did it at this time so uh i talked about in part two uh it was kind of ironic that uh african-american freed slaves were some of the soldiers

that took part in bernie down washington and mother of god that must have felt good for them like isn't it ironic and um so several plans were drawn up and then dropped uh so lord liverpool the british prime minister urged a status quo agreement which uh effectively means quote let's just all go back to how things were and pretend this never happened. Because nobody was ever going to get what they wanted. So like, guys, let's just wash our hands of this. Let's just pretend it didn't happen.

This was for several reasons. One, the British demand for a buffer state was Reynolds Moot once Tecumseh was killed and increased taxes back in England to fund their war because they're increasing taxes to fund the war in america and the fun the the fun the war on the continent was getting to piss people off um and also the americans had no real points to push every single point they'd used to declare war had been rectified before the first shots have even been fired um the impression of sailors was over um they they got rid of the um the law that said they couldn't trade with France anymore.

These were all the reasons that America went to war, and they were all gone before even the first battle. So now they have nothing to press during these peace treaty agreements. So on December 24th, 1814, the two sides signed the Treaty of Ghent. It was quickly ratified in England and three days later was approved by the Americans on 17th of February, 1815. If you're doing the math in your head, you'll realize that the British had agreed and ratified this treaty and then launched their attack on Mobile and New Orleans. And then launched their attack on Mobile and New Orleans. This wasn't an unknown thing to soldiers on the ground because British commanders actually ordered their sub commanders to keep prosecuting the war until President Madison signed the treaty, which was a month later. This was despite the fact that the tree's points were already agreed on and nothing they would have gained would have mattered because there's a status quo agreement. If they would have magically captured New Orleans or Mobile, they wouldn't just be able to keep it. They'd have to give it back.

In doing so, they lost around a thousand more soldiers than they had to and began the legend of future President Andrew Jackson. So good job, guys. Andrew Jackson was kind of an asshole and not a great president. So thanks. Seems to be a theme here in America. Yeah. At least he was a good commander. So thanks. Seems to be a theme here in America. Yeah. Um, at least he was a good commander.

Uh, now comes the question that has been burning people for around 200 years. Who the hell won the war? Um, historians generally believe and agree. The words are draw at best and American tactical defeat at worse. Um, the British generally don't think of the war as anything other than a small side war to the much larger and more important Napoleonic Wars that had began once again in 1815 as Napoleon escaped exile from Elba Island, which also helped press home the need to sign this treaty.

It was such a minor footnote in British military history, it was hardly even talked about until recently. It can hardly be thought of as an American victory. You have to think of the reason why America went to war. They wanted to expand. They, America wanted to capture Canada since revolutionary war. We invaded Canada during the revolutionary war and lost. And that again,

three more times. Nobody gained any of their tactical victories here. The only thing you can kind of know, this might be unpopular because while, uh, you know, England burned down the white house, they burned down a lot of the Capitol.

They effectively picked and choose the battles and won them at will. Um, with the exception of new Orleans, but they're also fighting with one hand tied behind their back. Uh, half their army was gone. Almost their entire Navy was gone. They were fighting someone much more strong,

much more independent and with much more dire circumstances. That was not America. And we weren't exactly being helped by France, but this war could have kept going on as long as Napoleon kept fighting. And it was really only when the war was over and he went into exile that we decided we should probably start finding a way out of this. And that was when the last kind of the battles in the South, those were we have to try to negotiate a position of strength, which is pretty common throughout the history of war.

Try to take as much as you can before the negotiations. So, one American victory was snuffing out Native American resistance in the Northwest Territory. I mean, it would go on, but the concept of a buffer state never materialized again.

Despite multiple invasions, Canada would stay a British colony and the natives would continue their resistance in America for about another 10 years. It was framed by some as a second war of independence because the Americans wanted to regain their honor that they had lost from the British

impressment on the high seas. I mean, it's kind of going to be a demoralizing moment to not only accept you get defeated by who's effectively your fucking grandpa in international relations and then he stole your sailors like and you you were powerless to get them back what it did show is that america was strong and a federally controlled army was absolutely necessary which they promptly got around doing when the Civil War kicked off a few decades later, thanks to our friend, former Private James Buchanan, you asshole.

The real, maybe only victor of this war was Canada, our great friends up north. I love me some Canadians. I'm from Michigan. Oh, Canada. Yeah. So the Canadians defended their land from multiple invasions from a much better arm train and much more numerous army with little more than a bunch of militia and french-speaking fur trappers um now there was uh the british had a had a small garrison in canada

they had uh militia much like we did um but much less tested i guess they definitely didn't just get done fighting a war of independence and at the outset of the American invasion of Canada like we just thought we were going to march into Canada and take it and that ended up being so incredibly wrong it was embarrassing we failed numerous times trying to attack Canada and Canada beat us back with almost nothing. This victory actually became a culture that the Americans had after the revolution. That was, we don't need this huge standing army to defend ourselves.

We have our militia. And that attitude would keep a hold on Canada all the way until world war one. So it's a pretty strong impression that it left on Canada much more than the America were like by the civil war. so it's a pretty strong impression that it left on canada much more than in america where like by the civil war the only thing you ever hear about the war of 1812 was like the president fought in it yeah we have a couple officers who fought in it like it was a footnote but i assume that has to do with when you fight so many wars that effectively the small ones of

you know get pushed to the side. In fact, the War of 1812 is considered the second most important historical moment in Canadian history, according to a recent poll, second only after World War I, where other Commonwealth states like New Zealand and Australia would also have a national awakening after seeing the cost that they pay in the trenches. And Passchendaele and Gallipoli, effectively. There's one loser to this war, though, and it would always be in American history. That is the natives.

One historian put it, quote, the big loser in the war were the Indians. As a proportion of their population, they suffered the heaviest casualties. Worse, they are left without any reliable European allies in North America. Their crushing defeat at Thames and the Horseshoe Bend left them at the mercy

of the Americans, hastening their confinement to reservations in the decline of their traditional way of life. So, only real winner here? Canada. The real fucking loser here? Native Americans. Native Americans have been the

constant loser throughout history, unfortunately. Yeah. I mean, if you're going to think an alternative history route here, let's say Britain gets their way and Ohio and Southern Michigan and

whatever else they want to turn into this confederacy of Indian states that exists and say it continues existing. And then fast forward a little bit longer to the Civil War. What would that confederacy do? Which side would it join? What would it do when the Indian War start in the late 1800s after the Civil War, when things like Little Bighorn and Wounded Knee happen, it would have been a game changer. It would have given not only would that Confederacy, assuming it existed and survived and continued

growing, it would have continued being fed by the British because that's something that they do. That's where we learned it from is having these proxy buffer states everywhere. from is having these proxy buffer states everywhere um and it it would have made some kind of defensible bastion in north america for the native americans it would not have made them able to be so easily victimized um so i guess this is where we got our our fine start as a nation though i there was another war um with the natives um in part one i went over but really from here on out the ruptured creek without a paddle um the reason why those wars happened and also like we fought the indians in the french and indian war uh was because there

was always some kind of european uh power that was propping them up and feeding them weapons and like hey go shoot those people um But once all that's gone, the only thing that remained were Americans are remembered constantly fighting Indians for decades. Did not end well for them. So that is the end of the war on eight, the war of 1812 series, the war on the year against a year.

I don't know. I feel like we could have, cause 1812 seemed like it really sucked um so thanks for sticking with us during our first series as a podcast you can expect more of these uh the next one up is the iran iraq war and uh you'll get part one of that as soon as it's ready um as always you can follow the show on Twitter at Lions underscore by. You can now follow us on Instagram at Lions led by Donkeys podcast, where I post tons of stupid history memes. You can follow me on Twitter at Jcast 99.

Can't follow Richardson on anything because she's smart enough to stay off fucking social media. Good on you. Go me. Yeah. I won that war. The best way to survive social media is just never being involved in it at all. Please thank you, everybody, for donating on the Patreon. Our podcast will always be free.

But if you think what we do is worth a dollar you can throw us one there and uh with one dollar of a donation you will have full access to our bonus episodes coming in the future we plan doing at least once a month um sometimes more depending on how much time we can get out of nick um so thanks so much to sergeant richard for stopping by again. She'll probably be stopping by more and more as we do extra content. It's hard to get people in here. I live in the middle of nowhere in Washington. So thank you for having me. It's it's been a pleasure.

I love learning. So yeah, and there's no better way to learn than sitting in a room full of dogs and wine and whiskey. Honestly, I could not think of a better way. So thanks again for everybody for stopping by. We will see you next time.