Lions Led By Donkeys Podcast - Episode 82 - Clint Lorance is a Murderer

Episode Date: December 9, 2019

Clint Lorance killed two unarmed Afghan civilians in 2012. Clint Lorance is a free man. He walked out of the United States Army Disciplinary Barracks at Leavenworth at the order the President Donald J Trump on November 15, 2019. This is the story of the war crime he committed. Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/notifications Buy some merch: https://teespring.com/stores/lions-led-by-donkeys-store Sources: https://taskandpurpose.com/think-lt-clint-lorance-murderer https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/07/01/army-officer-convicted-of-murder-in-afghanistan-to-get-another-look-by-civilian-court/ https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/without-a-doubt-in-my-mind-soldier-who-testified-against-clint-lorance-thinks-hes-guilty-despite-trump-pardon https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/25/us/jailed-ex-army-officer-has-support-but-not-from-his-platoon.html

This morning we are hearing from the American soldier now home in North Texas after the president pardoned his prison sentence. Some 250 people gathered in the Hunt County town of Merritt last night to show their support for Army First Lieutenant Clint Lawrence. He arrived in the back of a pickup truck and spoke to the crowd from a stage draped in red, white, and blue. In 2013, Lawrence was convicted of second-degree murder for ordering his men to fire upon Afghan civilians. After serving six years of a 19-year prison sentence, he was granted full clemency by President Donald Trump on Friday. Last night, in front of family and friends, he thanked the president and the people who never gave up on him.

Lieutenant Lawrence says there were only a dozen days in those six years that he did not receive a letter of support from someone. Along with Lawrence, the president also pardoned another soldier and restored a Navy SEAL's rank. Pentagon officials had advised against those pardons, saying it could potentially damage the military's judicial system. Hello, and welcome to yet another episode of the Lions Led by Donkeys podcast, or the War Crimes cast, because that's all I ever get to talk about anymore. I'm Joe, and with me today is everybody. I'm Joe. I fucked it up.

Hold on, let me see if I can get this. Your name is Nick. Let me see if I can get this right. Hello. And that's Rich. Let me see if I can get this right. Hello. Does that sound like you? Close enough. And we have Laika who is chewing on her paw right now. I would like to apologize

to everybody for doing this episode because I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do it. It pulled me back in. I mean, aren't most donkeys like war criminals pretty much? Most of them aren't still alive. Well.

It's very true. Most of them aren't currently on Fox News every fucking six hours. That's what happens when you're always in a war, Joe. Yeah. And, you know, I thought about doing this episode on Clint Lawrence. But then I changed my mind because it's like in the grand scheme of things, Clint Lawrence doesn't matter. But that changed recently. We just covered Robert Bales, and these two do come together at the end, which I'll go into.

And they're very, very like the timelines are pretty much in this like the same right uh same ballpark but not quite lawrence is after uh bails by only a short amount of time okay um but in the grand scheme of things a criminally inept fucking lieutenant ordering the deaths of two people is hardly noteworthy and i don't mean to say that to sound callous. We study military history. We've been talking about it now for almost two years. But we routinely talk about the deaths of thousands, if not millions of people. So I mean, I've grown a bit dead inside. And I was going to say, because the reason why this wasn't supposed to matter, and I think you two can agree with me here, is that at its surface, the story of Clint Lawrence should have been a case study about how the military and the military justice system functions and is supposed to work. I mean, you have a guy who breaks the law.

You have him being held accountable by his own soldiers. And then you have him being brought to trial for his crimes and then being rightfully found guilty by the UCMJ and thrown in prison. That should have been how this ended. I would really love to agree with you there, but just knowing the military justice system as I know it, obviously no.

I mean, normally you would be right, but the military justice system is not what fucked up here. It is not. You can say a lot about it. will probably be true but this should have been the case study of like you know it sometimes works and then you know like maybe bails as well but mostly this one because you don't normally see this happen ever like the only other time i've ever heard of a guy being turned in by his own soldiers is Eddie Gallagher. But yeah, both these guys have the same end story now, which we will talk about.

So what really changed me wanting to do this, because I have to say, I wrote this script before he was pardoned, and it had to be edited since then, is I saw the documentary series Leavenworth, which depending on when you are listening to this, it very well may still be airing on the Starz network. The series in the now popular vein of a true crime docu-series like Making a Murderer attempts to shed some light on the case of Lieutenant Clint Lawrence. Now, on a small side note here, there will be a bonus episode where

I will talk about the series in depth with one of Clint Lawrence's former squaliers, Mike McGinnis. But we will be referring back to this documentary to talk about some of its more glaring faults, falsehoods, and all around bad arguments, as well as some of the people that pop up in the documentary. But it won't be the main resource that we use here. How did his story get a documentary? That's what I'm wondering. That is the story that none of us can seem to figure out,

honestly. Of all the people currently wasting away in Leavenworth, his is hardly the least noteworthy, in my opinion. That is really interesting, but I also thought that the documentary, they represented both sides, but at the same time, because they did, they interviewed a lot of people who were against him being pardoned, who definitely thought he was guilty, who definitely had a lot of experience and evidence pointing towards him being guilty. But then it's hard to say that

the whole point of the whole thing wasn't towards pushing through the pardon. I have no doubt. Well, the show started being filmed before the idea of a pardon was really on the table. It wasn't taken very seriously. But he was coming up for parole. And that window would have been about the same from my understanding. But I have no doubt in my mind that this was sold to clint laurence as a good thing otherwise he

would not have taken part definitely and he never once like made any sort of inclination that he was actually guilty or that he did anything wrong he never once accepted guilt no except you know by the or even regret no no the only the closest thing he came to saying was he took responsibility for what happened that day not that he was sorry for it he still doesn't believe he did anything wrong but we'll get to that point yay i haven't seen this uh it's so it's why are you even here nick it's uh well that's the thing is it's okay because it's not the main reference point that we use here. And every argument that the documentary makes that I will attack, I will bring up their argument as well and why it's dumb.

Now, this series, as Rich can attest because I forced her to watch it with me, drove me up a fucking wall. In it, the director is clearly attempting to show Laurence any sympathetic light. to show Lawrence any sympathetic light. This is despite the fact that in the so far five hours of some change of the show, there might be a sixth episode, are dedicated to the soldiers who served under Lawrence and those being

the same ones who reported him and made sure that he was outed as a murderer. A piece of shit. Now that we know... Now that he did not knowing what he was doing like he acted in malice effectively to me that is that is pretty insulting to the people who put their fucking skin on the line um to to do the right thing uh to to really give a lot of fucking camera

time uh to carry a little lorenz time to carry Lawrence's baggage. That's why we're talking about Clint Lawrence today, because I got really mad at the TV. Your TV's still alive, which is good. Yeah, I'm getting better, Nick. I rarely break TVs. Just so people cannot accuse me of saying

or using openly critical sources for this show, I have found the best biography possible that would put Clint Lawrence in a good light. One that was almost certainly written by his own mother from freeclintlawrence.com. Now, it leaves some stuff out. You know, I did walk in on you guys watching an episode

and I did not enjoy his family. Oh boy, we'll talk about them. I promise. Good. So I did walk in on you guys watching an episode and I did not enjoy his family. Oh, boy. We'll talk about them. I promise. Good. Okay. Yeah. I'll save my comments for when we actually talk about them, I guess.

Clint Lawrence is born in December 13th, 1984 in the rural town of Hobart, Oklahoma. The series goes into great lengths about just how rural this town is. uh goes into great lengths about just how rural this town is uh like it's one of those ones that they let like kids that work the farm off school early to do farm stuff wait you said oklahoma yeah i thought he's from texas he moves to texas later but he's originally from oklahoma um but it's um i think it's pretty close to the border i'm not really sure um those two states just blend together to me um but. But the show goes into great lengths just to show how down home they are. Completely unimportant.

But yeah. As soon as Clint could, he got his GED and enlisted the Army as an MP on December 13th, 2002 on his birthday. So he attempted to enlist when he was 17 and his parents won't let him so he'd wait until his 18th birthday to do so. Right.

Sucker. Now his website bio skips over the fact as to why Clint was so desperate to leave his small town and got his GED instead of graduate high school because he could get his GED faster. That was because Clint was a closeted gay man in a very, very small town in a rural

community. Now, normally, I would not bring up somebody's sexual orientation because as far as this podcast goes, it is generally immaterial to the fact that he is a war criminal. And in this case, it also is immaterial to the fact he is a war criminal. So does not fucking matter. Oh, it also is immaterial to the fact he is a war criminal. So does not fucking matter. Oh, it does not. But the documentary makes this a very important point of its characterization. Like an entire fucking episode.

Yeah, it goes on for almost an hour. And now I will give credit where credit is due. They talked about how awful Don't Ask, Don't Tell was. And it was fucking terrible. But that should have been an entirely different documentary because it had nothing to do with anything. That would be like if they just suddenly cut off and by the way, mitochondria is a powerhouse of a cell. The plight of forcefully closeted gay soldiers and airmen and Marines, all that shit needs to be about. Because Don't Ask, Don't Tell was a criminally negligent policy to have. But it has nothing to do with Clint Lowrance.

He was one of, I'm assuming, tens of thousands of people in uniform that had to live under this horrific policy. Okay, it does have a very, very small, small thing to do with Clint Lowrance. Because the only reason he got moved to that unit was because of something to do with the fact that he was gay. He would have always ended up in that platoon. There was no way around it. Simply because he was working in the talk and they needed a lieutenant.

It always would have happened. They made it sound like something... And he would have been given the command of a different platoon. They forcefully outed him or something, and that's why they changed him to that platoon. No, he was in a situation where his boyfriend had sent something to him, and the people in his unit found out about it,

and they gave him shit, which is unacceptable. the people in his unit found out about it and they gave him shit, which is unacceptable. But that does not change the trajectory of the deaths of two people. No, and it doesn't require an entire episode to say, oh, he was gay and his life was so hard and that's why he committed fucking war crimes and murdered people. Right, right. I mean, that story needs to be told uh but this is not the outlet in which to do it there's it dishonors the the honorable conduct of gay soldiers and airmen and marines

and everything in between um it it attempts to pull them out as some kind of moral blanket uh and it's not cool it's fucking bullshit um it has nothing to do with his crimes and it's not cool. It's fucking bullshit. Um, it has nothing to do with this crimes. And it's very clear that since they talked for almost an hour, uh, about how Clint had to deal with, uh, the, the bowling and everything that comes with his orientation to draw sympathy

for him. That's all it was. Um, I don't mean to belittle or demean anyone's trauma, uh, that they would suffer from bigotry and homophobia while in uniform. And, you. And if that was the only thing that Clint

Lawrence did in his life, I would feel sorry for him. But he's a murderer. Yeah, it's still largely normal. Yeah. Don't ask, don't tell might seem like a long time ago for some people, but it wasn't. It was like 2010,

wasn't it? It was in effect when I enlisted and it was done by the time I was out. I don't remember the exact dates, but I remember. And it's not ancient history for sure. I'm pretty sure it was 2010 or 2011 that was finally repealed.

It was either while we were getting ready to deploy or while we were deployed. I don't remember. But again, not important for this episode uh i would love to do an entire episode of how awful that policy was but has nothing to do with clint lawrence um but the directors did talk about this for longer than they talked about clint lawrence actively ordering the deaths of two people and almost the death of a third uh that part is important. We all have our priorities. Yeah.

I mean, they interview more people, which I guess you could call them character witnesses in this case because he was still in prison, about regarding his sexual orientation. Then they do Afghans

regarding the deaths of their loved ones. Really? Yes. Wow. Yeah. And it should be noted, I believe his cousin is gay and he's like yeah this town

sucked and i left but i'm fine um anyway uh lorenz's first duty station was in korea which i'm sure pissed him off because he always cites the fact that he wanted to deploy and fight no war isn't why he enlisted uh it said he went to pusan once he was there he did all the things that that one guy in your platoon does that nobody ever likes that is he won the soldier of the month nco of the quarter he ran marathons at iron man races and he eventually became the school of dare officer like a total fucking loser fucking high speed as fuck what a square dude but but still a poke uh would not have been friends with this guy.

Nobody would have been. Of all the people they interview, like one of them was his friend. I wonder how he feels about that. She seemed okay. Really? Yeah. Like it didn't really seem like she wanted to be involved in the documentary.

He eventually left Korea for Alaska and then went to georgia for airborne school uh while in alaska he deployed direct for 15 months which was largely unremarkable i tried to do a lot of research in this i couldn't find much and i wasn't gonna foia his dd214 i didn't care that much uh but his first deployment uh goes pretty much undiscussed um and from what i can tell he was never awarded anything that would denote combat service. The New York Times article goes out of its way to say he had no prior combat experience before his deployment to Afghanistan.

So we can assume he was pulling people over on some large fob in Iraq or something. After that, he entered an ROTC program at the University of Northern Texas, where he was a member of a pre-law frat called Phi Alpha Delta. Now, not only is he a frat douche, this frat includes alumni like former presidents Truman, Harding, Carter, Clinton, and Taft, eight current or former Supreme Court justices, and also Joe Biden. So we could assume this is some like skull and bones type shit. Gross.

All around good people. Like he definitely had to put his dick in some skull and bones type shit. Gross. All around good people. He definitely had to put his dick in a skull during an initiation ceremony. Fucking frats. How are those even still a thing? Because rich people's kids can't sexually assault people with impunity unless a large crowd of people are involved. He graduated in 2010 and was commissioned as an infantry lieutenant in the United States Army and sent to Fort Benning. He was assigned to 82nd Airborne, 4th BCT, and in

2012, he was deployed to Kandahar, Afghanistan. And for reasons that are pretty fucking obvious at this point, this is where his biography on the website stops. Really? Yeah, like, it's like the Family Guy episode where they're talking about, why is there no history between 1935? Nothing happened happened he's on vacation uh originally lorenz was put into the talk or the

tactical operations uh command center as a liaison officer what was that word again liaison you said that super weird the first time. It's my announcer voice. But so the area that he went to in Kandahar is pretty hot as Kandahar is never a peaceful place. Even the best of times. I wrote a book about it. And according to Lauren, yeah.

Lawrence is former soldiers. It was not uncommon for them to get in a firefight several times a day. So it's not a great place to be living, but he is comfortably in a tent for this period uh and in a perfect world he never would have left that tent or been in command of a platoon but we do not live in a perfect world the platoon's original leader lieutenant latino was eventually wounded leaving the position of platoon leader vacant they looked around and were like oh fuck he fuck, he's another lieutenant. Plug him in.

Nobody really knew anything about the guy. I talked to a couple of his former soldiers, and most people didn't really know he existed. Or they knew him as the talk rat. Like most people who aren't working talks. He was put in charge of the platoon stationed in a small mud brick compound that overlooked a grape field. Almost as soon as he got to the command post, he began doing some off-putting shit. Uh, now this is according to a soldier who was there, and this is from a New York Times article called cause celebrity scorned by his troops. Quote, he looks like an all American sweetheart when you meet him.

Sergeant Williams said in an interview, but he's just so aggressive. One of the first things he said to us was we're going to go in Gestapo style with night raids, pull people out of their houses and make them afraid of us. Don't name drop the Gestapo! Jesus Christ! That escalated quickly. Who uses the Gestapo?

For the two guys in the Death's Head SS uniforms, like, wait, are we the bad guys? I will say he really does look like you're all American sweetheart, though. Yeah. If you were going to put an American soldier face on something, it would look similar like him. Like a largely featureless white guy. No. Yeah.

He should be the face of the fucking United States Army if he wasn't a war criminal. Well, good news. He kind of is now. So what did he do on his first day in command of his new platoon? Anybody? Anybody? Did they go in Gestapo style? They did not.

Hearts and minds. Hearts and minds. So do you think he got to know any of his soldiers or anything? I would hope so. Wrong. You're wrong. I forgot. We're on this show. God damn it! And the source

for this next part might tell you where this leads. This is from the court paperwork from his appeals process in the United States Army Court of Criminal Appeals, which is actually not something I knew existed until this episode. On the second day he was in charge of the platoon, they were on a...

Sorry, this is the first day. From the first day he was in charge of the platoon they were on a so this sorry this is the first day from the first day he was in charge they were on a patrol from Strongpoint Garaband to Strongpoint Payanzai which is where they lived or Payanzai which of the two as they approached the entry control point Lawrence encountered an

Afghan man and a young child who were hanging out near the entry they had questions the villagers asking soldiers if they could move some concertina wire that had recently been placed in his field because it was hurting his ability to work. Because that's like how he provides for his family. Right. This is a pretty common request. And I contest that U.S. forces are largely ignorant to the day-to-day life of the Afghans that surround them and are impacted by their work. That's not a controversial statement.

So there's a good chance the ware was placed there without knowing it would hamper the poor old man's ability to farm. Easy enough request. Lawrence told the villager that if his family touched the concertino ware, they'd all be killed. Really? Like him and his whole family? Yep.

Oh, good guy. He decided threatening the man verbally and everyone he loved was not serious enough. So he charged his weapon and pointed at the child. What? Yep. After this, he told them to leave and don't forget to come to the weekly Shura. No, thank you.

For people who are unaware, a Shura is a gathering of elders that come together as a kind of local government. sure is a gathering of elders that come together as a kind of local government uh or in this case it's like a meeting from all the local elders with uh the u.s commanders in the area it's like an airing of grievances how can i help you what happened stuff like that the way to get people to come to those is not by threatening to kill their family yeah that's super aggressive man yeah yeah uh i mean imagine like well this is kind of what happens if you're of a certain persuasion in this country but imagine you go to like a police station to report a crime

they beat the fucking dog shit out of you like see you later you won't you fucking won't but he's in his own country yeah he's in Afghanistan and he's an Afghan man like he should you are correct astute observation

anymore yeah i mean uh from my experience afghans depending on where you are and what their history with americans are much more likely to come to americans and afghan soldiers to for help because afghans will just steal their shit and demand a bribe. But I would rather pay a bribe than to have some fucking asshole from Oklahoma threaten my family. If I want to do that, I'll go ask an Oklahoma police officer for help, I guess.

Oh, by the way, he was a police explorer once and wants to be a police officer. So that might be your future, Hobart. Yep, yep. Now, remember remember this is the first day he was the hall monitor in middle school wasn't he he he was definitely the guy who ran it on somebody for smoking a cigarette in the bathroom where's your hall pass yeah uh he's the guy that when he you lorenz he's the guy that when he he did not get invited to a party at school, he called the cops because the kids had alcohol. He has wedgie calluses.

Now, this is the first day. Day one. Day two. Off to a great start. Again, this is according to the court documents. The next day, he rode a sharpshooter to fire indiscriminately into a nearby village for no reason. Yep, that happened. So this included randomly shooting it

near people's feet to scare them. In other cases, it ordered shooting around them to toy with them as they ran for their lives. Lieutenant Lawrence, why are we doing this again? For fucking funsies, man! Yeah. Now, the one thing that stopped this, according to the sharpshooter, was

he ordered him to shoot at women and children. Which he was like, bro, those are kids. And he was like, oh, my bad. I totally didn't know that. Now, in the documentary, he claims it's because he didn't have as good a sight as the marksman. But he had fucking binoculars. And there's pictures that show it. Bro, my bad. Only pictures that show it. Bro.

My bad. Yeah. Only works in certain situations. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, now shooting at children is not one of them. Now his excuse for this was to,

again, get people to come to the Shura. That's not how this works. Yep. That's what I mean. It's a bullshit excuse. I don't, it's,

it's hard to tell what he believes. To be fair, this all sounds very excuse. I don't it's hard to tell what he believes. To be fair, this all sounds very American. It sounds very lieutenant. The only thing that didn't happen during this whole thing is he didn't get lost as far as I'm as far as I know. Now, obviously, gunshots are fucking loud. So a nearby base called their base like, hey, what's going on here? Gunfire. So Lawrence ordered NCO to respond with a false

report saying that they were taking fire now i should have to point out here maybe i don't but i should uh that in neither of those cases the sharpshooter or that nco should have obeyed lorenz's orders because they were illegal but they did uh now eventually the sharpshooter did say you know what this is enough legal stuff for me you're going a little bit too far which i guess good for you but like it's the bare minimum man you still shot at innocent people um yeah yeah and so the day after that lorenz gathered his platoon together to tell three yes and the last day day three um so he gathered his platoon together. Yes. And the last day. So he gathered his platoon together to tell them that the rules of engagement in the area had changed.

He told them that everybody, that they were now allowed to fire on every and any motorcycle they saw. This is crazy for several reasons. At the same time in Afghanistan, ROEs were only getting tighter in order to minimize the risk of civilian casualties. Definitely not more lenient. This is from an article aptly titled

and written by Adam Linehan as Why I Think Clint Lawrence is a Murderer. That's a good title. Solid article. It's on task and purpose. Now, quote, the rules which General David Petraeus tightened to reduce civilian casualties when he assumed command of the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan in 2010 are in place to give soldiers pause to force them to consider if the kill is worth it. In his directive, Petraeus urged soldiers to hold their fire when unsure if a target is a combatant or a civilian, but he made it very clear that they had a right to defend themselves.

had a right to defend themselves um but yeah uh this this definitely did not this is not an order that would have been approved by general patrice shoot at every motorcycle yeah fucking half the afghans are driving motorcycles the roads don't fucking accommodate much more i would say it's more like 80 percent of all afghan transportation is via motorcycle um they are literally everywhere um this would be like somebody ordering police officers on a military base to shoot every Mustang that drives by. Or every fucking charger.

Yeah. Now, Lawrence had signs printed off and hung up around the base telling soldiers of this new order. Was he excited about it? It really just seems like

he was a guy that was out for blood. Yeah. Wait, use valuable fucking printer ink for this bullshit? That is the true crime here. For real? Yeah.

That's just expensive. The army doesn't like to pay for that shit. The soldiers in Lawrence's unit were immediately shocked by this because of everything I just pointed out they already knew. So much so that the platoon sergeant and several squaw leaders told their soldiers to disregard the order that the lieutenant had just told them about. Yeah, the LT had a sinister laugh at the printer while these were printing off.

We're still army prosecutors during his trial showed evidence, namely no official change in the ROE, that the ROE had never actually been changed, meaning that he had pulled it totally and completely out of his ass for no reason. that he had pulled it totally and completely out of his ass for no reason. Now, an argument made by some of his supporters and something that Lawrence has kind of sort of hinted to is that he heard of this change from Afghan soldiers. Now, this is both a hilarious lie and just a galaxy brain argument to have, because anybody who is familiar with how the Afghan-U.S. force relationship works knows that the Afghan army do not put rules in place of U.S. army soldiers. No. Fucking never. But that has been ruled out.

Yep. What? Yep. It's really dumb, but yep. After that meeting on July 2nd, 2012. I'm sorry. So these fuckers who half the time don't even wear fucking shoes. No, you're thinking of Afghan police.

The soldiers are better. Okay. That is a low bar, though. That is a low bar. Now, I remember when we were deployed, 99% of Afghan security forces you saw were Afghan police. Well, we worked with the army for half the year and the police for half the year. Yeah, like I said, the army's not much better. But it's a low bar.

So same, same. Yeah, same but different. Now, after that meeting on July 2nd, 2012, Lawrence led his platoon and several members of the Afghan army out on a patrol. They're almost immediately confronted by angry villagers who want to know why the fuck they just

been shot at the day before. Reasonable. Yeah. Uh, Laurence told him to fuck off and they could talk about during the Shura. Now in the documentary, one of Lawrence's squad leaders, uh,

points out pretty obviously like, bro, the right here, we can just talk to him right now. Uh, because well, yeah. Uh,

but Laurence instead threatens to kill him if they don't leave and begins a countdown from five. Jesus, he really likes the murder threat. Yeah, as long as he doesn't have to do it himself, apparently. The villagers decide they didn't really want to get murdered, so they leave and the patrol went on its way. Shortly after that, Private First Class Skelton recorded to Lawrence that a motorcycle was approaching with three people on it. Skelton did not report that the motorcycle was doing anything three people on it. Skelton did not report that the motorcycle was doing anything hostile

or even coming towards the patrol. It was driving laterally to them. He was just doing his job like, hey, there's a vehicle over there. You do that on a patrol. Lawrence immediately began to order soldiers to open fire on it, but nobody did. Eventually, he directed

a funny part if your brain is damaged and dead like mine, soldiers to open fire on it but nobody did eventually he directed uh now there's there's kind of a funny part uh if your brain is damaged and dead like mine where he's like why is nobody firing and everybody's like because it's not a threat like he's he's not super funny joe he's obviously stomping around like a petulant child upset that nobody's listening to him to kill those innocent people uh but he eventually points out skelton individually and tells him to fire. Now, Lawrence kind of demurs from accepting that responsibility and says, you can fire on them if you want. In the documentary, he doesn't really accept that he's like, Skelton, shoot them. But Skelton testified contrary to that.

And so did everybody else. Skelton missed, but that was enough for the motorcycle to stop because they were getting shot at. And the three men climbed off and stood around, clearly trying to figure out what was going on. So there's two sides of what happens next. And really, this whole episode. That is, one is Lowrance's account,

and the other's is literally every other person that was there that day. Lowrance says that the motorcycle was speeding right towards them and did not stop when Skelton fired at them. By all accounts, this is totally and completely impossible as they were in a field full of thick rows of grapes

and the men were over 200 yards away. Also in the documentary, he says, well, he couldn't see over the grapes. over 200 yards away. Also in the documentary, he said, he says, well, he couldn't see over the grapes. They were too thick. Uh, so he couldn't actually see them.

So that's why he told Skelton to open fire, but he also claims that the motorcycle was a threat or, or moving or acting in a threatening manner. You can't fucking have it both ways. Like which do, do I believe that you're incompetent and you're ordering people to fire without seeing the target or do i believe that you totally and completely saw them and saw something different than 30 other people which one he doesn't seem to decide which choice it is

yeah what is known and agreed on is that skeleton mist and the men climbed off uh and they just kind of waited around because they're like, well, normally when somebody shoots at me, they're going to come talk to me. Afghan soldiers yelled at them to stay where they were, and they did. Waiting around their bike. Lawrence screened for soldiers to continue to engage the men, but nobody would.

This is when NCOs began to get involved. Several of the platoon's senior NCOs, including the platoon sergeant, Sergeant Ayers, and Sergeant McGinnis, who I had the pleasure of getting fucking shit-faced with once, were running around. McGinnis was in a different position,

but he was on the radio telling them not to fire and screaming. It eventually devolved into something of a screaming match between the two of them, but other sergeants were like, nobody fire. Don't fucking do it. This, like i said devolved into a screaming match between the ncos and the lieutenant uh which i assume is how most decisions are made in the army um but what it boils on to is almost everybody knew that their platoon leader was very very wrong and they did not want their

soldiers to continue doing that that was when the lorance gun the radio demanded a truck with its amount of 240 bravo machine gun to open fire and the gunner a private shiloh did um now i kind of feel bad for shiloh shiloh was someone who was very very young and he was a private and he was getting yelled at by a lieutenant to do something um not many privates would have the guts to not do it. No, not at all. And I think that's why he did it. And it's very hard, especially with him spreading around what's fucking false information about ROE and everything like that.

It's very, very hard to distinguish between what is an ethical order and what's not because we all know that we don't have to follow orders that aren't fucking ethical, but- Not ethical, legal. Legal, moral, ethical. Yeah, the other two are pretty stretchy, but legal is pretty set in stone. Right, right.

But if your platoon leader has been spreading around that you engage anybody on a motorcycle and the ROE has changed and all these other things. And then he's screaming at you to fire like, what the fuck are you going to do? Of course you're going to fire. Yeah, it definitely muddles the waters, which is probably what he wanted. And he targeted and ordered privates to do his bidding. Because remember, he was former enlisted. He knows the privates are probably not... Oh, they're not going to risk themselves.

They don't know. I mean, I don't know what their combat experience was. I don't know how long they've been in the military. Shallow is probably a fucking teenager. Um, but I don't know if he willingly did this. So I can't say he did,

but I feel like he, he told the people he knew would listen to a Lieutenant. Right. And sergeants were doing their fucking best to make sure they couldn't. Good job, NCOs. The NCOs were definitely in the right, 100%. I do not say that often because I did not meet many I liked.

Same. Big ups to your guys. We did something right. Then Shiloh killed two people, wounding a third. That got dark. A young boy ran towards the three downed men, which were

his relatives, in horror, and Lorenz ordered Shiloh to kill them too, and that's when Shiloh said, no, I refuse. He would not do it. So, good. Immediately, people knew what just happened was very, very wrong. Sergeant Williams,

who had watched the entire thing unfold via a high-powered camera from a nearby base, said, quote, I got on the radio. I was like, what the fuck just happened? There's no threat from those guys. This is immediately afterwards. The soldiers searched the two down men.

The wounded man had got up and ran as fast as his wounded body would take him. I think he was shot in the arm, so he was able to get the fuck out pretty fast. And all they found were some scissors, id card and the three cucumbers probably their lunch yeah now if they were in the u.s they've been good uh he pointed a cucumber at me yeah yeah not wrong though not wrong no you're not not good uh screaming and crying civilians from the village uh began to like run up and see what the fuck was going on and they want to see what was happening and lorenz told them if anybody touched the bodies he'd kill them according to court documents and

sworn statements from other soldiers when he was confronted by an elder he said shut up or i'll kill you too a helicopter arrived because after the shooting a helicopter is ordered uh on site and uh began to orbit the area and mostly just looking for that third wounded man who had ran off because they're like he might have a weapon or something he didn't uh cucumber he left his cucumber behind uh i need to find him to return his fucking cucumber. Yeah. And that helicopter took the only known picture of the crime scene with the

body still in place. There is when this starts to get a little bit fuzzy. So after something like this, you get in a, a, a firefight and they leave dead bodies behind, which is rare, but that happens.

You're supposed to conduct a battle damage assessment or BDA. a firefight and they leave dead bodies behind, which is rare, but that happens. Um, you're supposed to conduct a battle damage assessment, um, or BDA. This includes biometrics of the dead bodies, like pictures of their irises and fingerprints, um, pictures of the area,

their weapons, shit like that. Um, it's the far above my pay grade, but it normally involves, uh, weaving together intelligence matrices. So you can better target,

uh, Taliban cells in the area. Lawrence didn't do any of that. Private First Class Skelton should have been the one to conduct the battle damage assessment. He had the training and the equipment needed to do so. It was also his job. But he was specifically ordered by Lawrence to stay away from the bodies with the excuse of you won't like what you'll see. Now, remember, Skelton has saw more combat

than Lorance. He's probably pretty familiar with what that looks like since he's the guy who literally has to take iris pictures of dead corpses. You won't like what you see? And remember,

Skelton isn't the one who actually shot them. He missed. But like, he was purposely keeping Skelton away from the crime scene because he knew what Skelton's job was.

He told another soldier who did not have the training or the equipment to go conduct a battle damage assessment, meaning there could not be pictures taken, there could not be biometrics. Yep. He's purposefully fucking with the investigation at this point.

He then told villagers to immediately take the bodies away and ordered his radio operator to report that they could not do the battle damage assessment because the villagers had taken the bodies too fast. The operator refused to do so because passing a false report is illegal, so Lawrence did it himself. God, he's really into the legal stuff. He then lied to Sergeant Ayers and said the helicopter reported spotting the men with weapons before Shiloh had engaged them with machine gun fire. Now, everything Lawrence is doing here is illegal, but it's obvious

with Ayers, he's trying to obfuscate any actual investigation to the incident by changing stories while everybody still had it fresh and malleable in their heads. This happens a lot, and it's not normally for nefarious reasons.

When soldiers get in firefights, they all see different things. Very rarely do you see a uniform picture. Everybody's looking at something different. People get tunnel vision on different stuff. And then when you guys start sharing stories afterwards, like, oh, fuck, that's what happened. And the story begins to knit into a larger picture.

What Lawrence is trying to do is fuck up that larger picture right here. I don't know if he knew that. That's what he's trying to do. Now, remember when I said that Skelton should have been the one to conduct the BDA and he was told not to? Well, he was the company intelligence support soldier, which is the job that I used to have. It's your job to go to reports on BDAs. You brief people about what you saw. You turn in all the information. You have to write a report. It's really dumb, but that was his job lawrence knew that and he told him to leave the part out of his report where he told him not to do his job so he told him to lie yes he told him to lie to a to the company commander

got it yeah so he's telling soldiers to lie yes about the decisions that he made during this whole thing yep he's telling soldiers to lie. Yep. Got it. Lie to cover up my multiple felonies, please. Swell guy. Yep. So this is the thing is,

Skelton knew all of this was deeply, deeply troubling and illegal. So when Skelton went in to talk to the company commander, he immediately told him everything. Nice. Like that night yay skeleton yeah way to go buddy uh lorenz was now this is where things are like and this is where captain swanson which is the company commander was like well we don't really know what happened

out there so uh why don't you keep this to yourself skeleton didn't happen no swanson immediately launched an investigation and lorenza suspended from his duties while it was conducted so three days he was in he was in command for three days 72 motherfucking hours less than all right um now swanson took all the men into a room and had them all write sworn statements while it's fresh in their mind which is what you're supposed to do right um now not only was everybody like yep i'll write a sworn statement abso-fucking-lutely they all painted the same consistent picture that lorenz or the murder of two men that were in no in no way were they a threat

and this is like some kind of weird collaboration type or like meets hive mind group activity of like whatever i just saw was horrible and bad and we have to say something because i have never heard of a platoon of soldiers being more in sync this is what pisses me off so much about this documentary is they do not emphasize how fucking unlikely it would be to get an entire platoon to lie. Even if it was slightly sideways. And I'm guilty of this. And I'm sure you guys would be guilty of this too. And if there's a lot of veterans

listening or active duty people listening, they are also guilty of this. If something like this happened and it was like a shoot no shoot situation and you just kind of fucked up, everybody would probably keep their mouth shut. We're all put in a situation where you might fuck up. You might kill the wrong person.

But there's a difference between manslaughter and murder. I'm not saying that's okay. I'm just saying that's the reality of what war looks like. And it's not fucking pretty. And it shouldn't be okay. reality of what war looks like and it's not fucking pretty right and it shouldn't be okay but for an entire platoon to be like that was fucked up is insane like yeah it's nuts you can barely get a team a team which is like what like five people depending on the unit depending on the unit yeah like maybe five to ten people you can barely get a team to all stick with the same story and fucking see eye to eye on shit so for an entire

platoon to fucking all say yeah this is what fucking happened and it was fucking wrong because you know those guys didn't all get along you know those guys were driving each other fucking crazy and they didn't give a fuck what each other thought. Right, and it's impressive that you could get 30 people, or I mean, there's a lot of people involved, to uniformly agree on what right and wrong is. Yeah. You can't. Especially in the military, where there's always like one guy

in every fire team that would be like totally down with genociding Afghanistan. Oh, yeah. Like, there's just no way. Yeah, yeah. So he was eventually relegated to a desk job for the rest of the deployment while they worked their way through the investigation

and when he was returned home with his unit he was arrested on two counts of murder attempted murder misconduct various kinds of obstruction and breaking just about every rule in the UCMJ now it's just this continues to blow my mind so six soldiers rule in the UCMJ. Now, it's just,

this continues to blow my mind. So, six soldiers who they said were guilty of crimes during the shooting were granted immunity to testify. That includes

Shiloh, Skelton, and some others. Which I'm glad. I feel bad for Shiloh. I understand he did something wrong, but I don't put him completely at fault

for his actions. I'm glad that he got immunity. He was probably did something wrong, but I don't put him completely at fault for his actions. I'm glad that he got immunity. He was probably like, what, 18, 19? A PFC? He was pretty young. Yeah, a little baby. Yeah. When I was a private, I probably would have done it.

And I don't say that to lighten the situation. Privates do what you tell them to do. They're conditioned to do so. Yeah, under very specific pain. And it's hard to distinguish what's fucking legal, moral, and ethical, especially in a moment's notice. Yeah.

If a lieutenant's yelling in your ear for something. That sounds like an argument that Lawrence's side would tell, kind of. Now, during this trial, Lawrence argued his side of the story and it failed miserably. I would go into detail about what his argument was, but it largely hinged on,

well, I can't control what my men do. And also what they did was okay. Obviously it was wrong. Yeah. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison at the U.S. Military Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth. He was convicted of roughly one crime per day

during his time in command of a platoon, which has to set some kind of record. Jesus Christ. Every day you were in command, you sucked. Now, this is where he was found guilty of more crimes than he was in days in command of that platoon. That is a record. Yeah.

Now, this is the story that happens after he's in prison is where shit gets wild. Since then, he and his family, as well as several right-wing shitheads, have been screaming endlessly about his release. This includes people like Alan West,

I believe he's a retired colonel or something, that I think he was forced into retirement for doing something deeply unethical. I didn't really look into it. And Tucker Carlson, a very well-known grifter and a out-and-out white nationalist.

This includes his shit-heel lawyer John Mayer. No, not that John Mayer. I love John Mayer. Clint Lawrence is a wonderland. I totally thought of that John Mayer. I was like,er. Clint Lawrence is a wonderland. I totally thought of that John Mayer. I was like, oh, cool. I like his music. When I wrote that, I'm like, Rich is going to giggle about this.

Mayer argued that the army withheld evidence when they went to trial, which would have been bad and would have been a case for misconduct. They didn't do that. He goes on to say that there is no proof other than several secondhand accounts that Lowrance is on the rooftop when the sharpshooter opened fire randomly in a nearby village. It turns out there's actually pictures of the incident that show Lowrance standing right next to the sharpshooter with binoculars in his hand. Whoops. So that evidence that Mayer said that the army withheld, it was nothing. And also less than nothing.

One of the men who had been killed was related to a member of the Taliban. And the man who was wounded ended up taking part in an IED attack after he got shot on Lawrence's orders. Another dead man ended up being connected to the bombing of a U S unit at, at some point. It's immaterial. It's although that's all deflection. And here's why neither one of those bits of evidence, evidence,

one of which would have required some kind of fucking time machine would have mattered at that moment. Right. For this argument to work, you'd have to accept that all prisoners of war or enemy, enemy prisoners of war are subject to execution, or that is okay for U.S. soldiers to be able to kill anyone

that's even tentatively related to the Taliban. Or, some kind of Tom Cruise crime time machine is in use by the U.S. military, and Clint Lawrence worked for pre-crime. Tom Cruise is a time machine? It's a movie. Oh, okay, I knew that was a movie. Or, like, any...

God damn it, Nick. Any fucking military-aged male is just fucking up for grabs. Like, no. I need to watch the movie. Or like any fucking military-aged male is just fucking up for grabs. Like, no, that's not how that works. Like, there's no investigation done for them to know that beforehand, so it doesn't fucking work. Right.

This means that Mayer is attempting to exonerate his client by saying he broke other, actually more serious crimes. Also, the wounded guy who... He's pissing on his own balls. What? Oh, no. The wounded guy who you said he was linked to an IED after the

fact. Yeah, I wonder why. Yeah. I would fucking try to blow up US troops too if y'all fucking shot me. Yeah, yeah. You want a really fast track recruit to the Taliban? Fucking put a speed hole in me. Fucking shoot at me and my family members and my children and shit. Like, do it, and I will fucking try to kill you.

This Clint Lorentzen is actually a really great spider graph for why counterinsurgency doesn't work. Mayer also brought out someone else totally new to the case, a civilian contractor named Kevin Huber or Hubber. One of the two. Kevin was operating a camera on a stationary blimp at the day of the shooting. This is from a Lawrence's new court petition filed to bring his case from the military court system to the federal court system. A petition, which I have to point out, succeeded, which also didn't end up mattering.

But Huber writes, quote, I saw three fighting age males shadowing the American patrol at a distance of about 300 meters. Huber wrote in Lawrence's new court petition that will be presented to the civilian court. In my experience, if every indication of the Taliban or insurgent fighters because they were armed with AK-47 rifles and carrying ICOM radios or moving along the back wall of the village towards the American position. OK, I cannot legally call Huber a lying piece of shit. I'm not saying I called that, called him that because that'd be considered slander. If I say Huber is a lying piece of shit, which remember I did not call Kevin Huber a lying piece of shit.

What are like, what are the guidelines? Like, why are you not able to say that? Can I say it? No, I feel like he's a lying piece of shit. I'm not saying I called him a lying piece of shit i'm not saying i called him a lying

piece of shit i think we texted about this for a while you feel like he's a lying piece of shit nick what joe said i'm just saying i did not call him a lying piece of shit um i think he is i didn't call him that hubris testimony flies in the face of around 30 eyewitnesses, a helicopter pilot who's overhead, as well as Sergeant Williams, who also watched the shooting on camera. It also goes against every piece of physical evidence found at the scene of the crime. Remember,

none of them had weapons. Cucumbers. Yeah, depending on how strongly you feel about vegetables. How big were those cucumbers? I mean, were they the English cucumbers? Because those are really long. I doubt it. They were in Afghanistan. I've seen the Afghan cucumbers pretty small. Don't bring it. They are delicious, though.

They are delicious. You would know. Yeah. Is that a dick joke? You're making a dick joke, right? I hope you're proud of yourself. I absolutely am. I hope you're proud of yourself.

I hope everybody else is proud of me also. I love eating Afghan men's cucumbers. That means even if we buy the idea that Huber was right and those men did have weapons earlier, let's say they are all strapped to the fucking gills with weapons, but they no longer did, which means it was not legal to shoot them. So it doesn't fucking matter.

Yeah, fuck off, Huber. If Huber was correct in his assumption that these three men were scouting an American patrol for a later attack that also does not mean you can legally shoot them I hope we're saying his name wrong I probably am I hope we are just to piss him off if I accidentally say a name correctly

that'd be the first time in this podcast's history you say your name right that's about all I got now this pisses me off because like well if you knew somebody was scouting you for attack issue no because i watched it happen anybody who deployed and saw combat knows when they're being scouted and also knows they couldn't be shot now way back in the day you could in like 2006 through whenever when in iraq and and early on afghanistan that totally fucking happen. But this is

2012. Petraeus didn't let you shoot at a goddamn thing unless you could be absolutely sure. And for all of Petraeus' fucking faults, and there are plenty, that is not one of them. But yeah, fuck Kevin Huber. Solid. You not lying piece of shit. You probably

lying piece of shit. Also important noting, Hber later changed the story did he yeah yeah he said he wasn't sure if they were really armed or not and he wasn't sure if they're the same people so i talked i talked to one soldier who was an eyewitness and testified on the stand against clint laurence uh but i will not name him because I'm playing journalist during this episode, who said, quote, that guy is full of shit. You can say it.

Good quote, good quote. So it gets even dumber the further we go into this. This is an onion of dumb. Oh, it goes more. As you pull in, you begin to cry because you lose faith in humanity,

but also because it's dumb. Not everything sticks. I don't accept that. You should. There's layers to this onion of doom. One of Lawrence's attorneys faith in humanity, but also because it's dumb. Not everything sticks. I don't accept that. There's layers to this onion of doom. One of Lawrence's attorneys is a guy named Don Brown, who looks like what would happen if a pile of mashed potatoes gained sentience.

Now, Brown is an unhinged racist and an Islamophobe, who once wrote a book titled Treason, and the storyline is where a bunch of U.S. Navy Muslim chaplains attempt to create a terrorist cell. So yeah. Hold on, what? Is it a Tom Clancy book?

It's Tom Clancy if Tom Clancy was really into the Turner Diaries. I know that this is somewhat irrelevant, but I love all the food-based references. Brown also wrote a book on Loren Lawrence's case called Travesty.

Sorry, it's Travesty of Justice, where he decides to put the blame of the entire shooting on the Afghan army, saying that they're the ones who shot the people. Did people buy his books? This is fucking nuts

because it just caused, this literally flies in the face of everything to include Clint Lawrence's own words. It was the Afghan on the grassy knoll. You can't just make stuff up. That's not how shit works. That's how everything works now.

It was the Afghan on the grassy knoll. Good reference. I like that one. Another argument that has other attorney mayor lies out is you cannot take the testimony of those soldiers seriously because they were given immunity uh so they could say whatever they wanted they're not going to go to prison one that's not how immunity deals work and he knows that he's a fucking attorney because like so if you're given a deal like that and you go on stage and you go on stage you you go out there and you just fucking lie or you fuck up

and you don't do what you're supposed to do. They just take the goddamn deal and prosecute you. That's how those work. It happens all the time. Also, nine people testified against him.

Only six were granted immunity. You stupid fuck. God. God. Now, much has been made about Clint Lawrence as being hamstrung and left out to dry by the rules of engagement. This is despite the fact that he had lied several

times in an attempt to create his own rules of engagement that existed only in Clint Lawrence Fantasyland. Also, this goes, he obviously didn't believe in his own rules because he immediately attempted to cover up his own murders even though there was a platoon's worth of eyewitnesses

and you said he hung these rules up in the talk yeah it's noted in the court of criminal appeals I believe they had samples I hope it was a shitty word document that said this is okay yeah it's just a Honda motorcycle that X'd through it

done an MS paint like an Acme style and say, this is okay. Yeah, it's just a Honda motorcycle that acts through it. Done an MS paint. Like an Acme style. Take your sip. The blood's all angered up. The vodka helps. Now, if he had thought he was within the established rules of engagement which he created in his head,

he would not have destroyed the crime scene. I'd go further to say that if his soldiers thought he was within the stated rules of engagement they would not have testified against him right they would not have all written the same fucking sworn statement against him no how that generally works is and this is not right it's morally it's immoral and unethical well all of us here in the show will agree that our producer will as well. If not, you can tell me to go fuck myself is a group of soldiers in combat. If somebody acts reasonably the same situation that I would act, I'll forgive them.

Even if it's wrong. And that's not right. It's not cool. That's generally how it works. Like if you exist in the realm of fucked up, twisted norms of the military and soldiers in general, soldiers generally won't turn against you. Right.

Certainly not like this. I mean, there's cases of whistleblowers like we talked about in Haditha and we talked about in the Mamoudia rapes and murders. Those were whistleblowers. These aren't fucking whistleblowers. They're witnesses. An entire platoon full of witnesses.

Yeah. Yeah. It still amazes me. Well, and like, I understood that he was only there for three days. Yeah. But there's a certain level of camaraderie and brotherhood and everything that like little things are going to fucking slide. And they're not going to like, what motive do they have to fucking hang this guy out to dry after three days of knowing him? Good news,

because that's what I'm about to talk about. So in the documentary, Laurent shows himself to be totally unrepentant, refusing to acknowledge he did anything wrong. He accuses the soldiers who wrote the sworn statements and testified against him of conspiring against him or simply not liking him. At one point,

he makes some job about 15 minutes of fame. Won't really go into that, but the bonus episode with Mike McGinnis certainly will. I can't wait for that. This is despite the fact that the soldiers really didn't even know who he was. He had only been in command for three

days, and according to a soldier I talked to, Lawrence never spoke to or socialized with any of them. None of that breaking of the ice shit, no hanging out. No chilling by the smoke pit. No spades. Nothing.

Every PL I've encountered have always wanted to get to know their own soldiers. Yeah, I've had shitty lieutenants and even they wanted to like small talk.

And this isn't just soldiers. This is with his own squad leaders and platoon sergeants. That's even weirder. Yeah. I've known a lot of terrible people that I've

served with. I've served with some fucking horrible leaders. I've served with some really fucking toxic leaders. I've served with some leaders who made me want to cry in the morning before going to work. I have never served with anyone that I was like, you know what? I'm gonna say they fucking committed a war crime just so I can get

rid of them or get them out of my face or show them fucking what? Like I've never once in my life said this person is so horrible that I'm going to ruin their life. I'm literally going to commit multiple felonies to get him out of here. Like nobody does that. I mean, he might as well have been a random guy who happened to pop into their lives

and change them all for the worse in the span of 72 hours. So all he was. And that's the thing is I talked to these guys and they are still fucking traumatized by the situation. Oh, that's the thing that also kind of pisses me off about the documentary is that Clint Lawrence in his fucking prison uniform in his cell looks fucking fine. And all of the guys who are being interviewed. He's carrying no weight on his shoulders.

No, not at all. He literally thinks that nothing ever wrong ever happened. He's clearly the victim here. All of the guys who served with him, all of the guys who wrote the sworn statements and who are witnesses to this look fucking haunted. Yeah. Yeah. And like I've been told that several people involved in the situation have taken their own lives since then to include one the week he was pardoned and nobody has said

shit wow yeah um yeah like like rich just said the the idea that these soldiers hated him to the extent they're willing to commit multiple crimes themselves such as filling out false sworn statements which is something he did by the way go on the stand and lie and break the law like at least in three different directions just to get rid of a shitty lieutenant they didn't like is

fucking absurd now because I have to piss you off even further before we get to the other stuff they to piss you off even further before we get to the other stuff, they'll piss you off even more. Clint Laurent said, quote, I can do prison, but I would never look these mothers in the face and tell them that their sons are no longer alive because I didn't do my job. Yep. Yep. Fucking great.

Now, this is where I'd like to say that the story ends. And when I wrote the script, it did. So that changed and I had to update it. His appeals were over exhausted and the army really seemed ready to let him rot in prison until the end of a sentence, but it doesn't end there. Lawrence's defenders would not stop getting airtime. Most of them on Fox news or other various right wing channels like the own

network and other stupid shit. Um, or the zero blog 30 podcast, you fucking assholes. Now, as one would expect, they were eventually joined by the vaping congressman and guy who will most certainly

go to federal prison himself, Duncan Hunter. The guy who committed campaign fraud to fly his rabbit across the country. And then blamed his wife. And then blamed his wife. Yep crew and shit right and then blamed his wife yep yep solid yep honestly the only good part this entire

documentary series was when one member of the platoon watches clips of Sean Hannity talking about the case and the soldier is just like fucking baffled and nervously laughing about all the like the lies he's spouting like this is fucking bullshit, man.

These are all fucking... Fuck this guy. It's the best part of the whole series. I would watch an hour of these guys getting drunk and watching Fox News and just like roast battling them. It would be fucking great.

I will pay for that myself to get those guys together donation goal? new Patreon donation goal fucking Mystery Science Theater 3000 with these guys also this whole thing

brought me to an organization that I never knew existed before named United American Patriots now if you have never heard of them I do not blame you because they were generally on the down low Brought me to an organization that I never knew existed before. Named United American Patriots. Now if you have never heard of them. I do not blame you. Because they were generally on the down low. Until very very recently. They are for lack of a better term.

A war criminal advocacy group. Now. On their website. They proudly have all the pictures. Of the men that they advocate for. No women mind you. I don't think I don't think they're huge fans of Lindy England but that might have been before their time

this is one of the pictures on there which piqued my interest wasn't another and Robert Bales really now Bales is not alone in their rogues gallery of war criminals this includes Calvin Gibbs the leader of the so-called Kill Team, who murdered

Afghan civilians and collected their body parts as souvenirs. It includes Richard Camacho, a former captain who kidnapped a woman, beat, and tortured her for eight hours before raping her. Like Clarence, he was also an 82nd Airborne. Also should be

known that Camacho only served two years in prison and now he's free. They also defended and advocated for private first class Corey Claggett, also should be known that Camacho only served two years in prison and now he's free. What the fuck? They also defended and advocated for private first class Corey Claggett. Claggett was part of a group of soldiers who captured several Iraqis, ordered them to run, and then shot them in the back. UAP spent

over $100,000 working to free Claggett, who was eventually released on parole, and now works for him. Now, pretty much every single person that Uap is freed uh now works for them in some capacity or another normally as uh spokespeople or um uh like uh they they trolled capitol hill attempting to get congress people to listen to them um and i couldn't find any information and i had three people working on this about who funds these guys.

They're a 501c or whatever it's called, a non-profit. So they are technically supposed to exist on donations. Those donations are hidden by various LLCs and shell companies, but they almost all trace back to the far right of the political spectrum. Many of them members of the U S government.

Yay. Go us. Now I emailed the UAP for this episode. I wanted to know if like Lawrence and other men like Gallagher and Goldstein, that these men, that they were like advocating. I don't know if it's Goldstein or Goldstein.

I'm not good at that name. Are advocating for the release of Robert Bales. I thought that was pertinent information. I wanted to, I guess I was trying to gauge how terrible they were. It sounds like it. Like, say what you will,

but there is a much different category of crime between what Clint Loran said and what Robert Bales did. I think we can all agree to that. Yes. One is attempting to free a shitty murderer all agree that one is attempting to free a shitty murderer and the other one is attempting to free like the guy

who shot up the church in North Carolina. You know I'm saying like even that fucking Camacho guy fucking kidnapped a woman and raped her and held her captive and for eight hours. Yeah. Yeah, that's and the I believe the Army Criminal Court

wanted to give him one charge per hour that he held her captive and that got pled down or something. Not super familiar with that, but yeah, he's free. He's free. Now, I wanted to know what exactly... What were they advocating for Robert Bales?

Were they advocating that he gets mental health treatment? Were they advocating... What were they advocating? It just says that they're advocating. advocating that he gets mental health treatment? Were they advocating? What were they advocating? It just says that they're advocating. So I was like, I'm going to email them. I did not expect them to ever email me back because by this point, a quick Google search of my name

pretty quickly reveals that I am not talking to them in good faith. Do you ever try to go undercover? Maybe that would help. My email address is jjcasabian at gmail.com. Maybe it should be fatballs69 or something. Probably less likely to answer that one. Is it fatballs?

Yeah, with a PH. Oh, okay. That's not better. It's not better. And balls with a Z. It's better than your name at this point. So it turns out they are kind of dumb. Now, I was very straightforward in my email.

I put my best journalism hat on. I didn't just tell them journalism hat on I didn't just tell them like I didn't try to both of them or anything I didn't originally think about it I simply asked them if they were advocating for the release of Robert Bales

now if anybody wants the full transcript of the emails I'll give it to them but that's what my email boiled down to I was like you know what i'm just curious if you're advocating for the release of robert bales so they talked in circles uh they i eventually did i did not speak to lieutenant colonel bull gerfine uh who is their ceo even though i was told that they were going to use me what was that fucking name again so bull is a nickname that he goes by which he definitely gave himself.

Bull, like B-O-W-L, like I eat cereal out of you? like a bull. That's not a good nickname. Yeah. No, it's not. It's like a,

like an animal. Bull. Yes, bull. You're saying, like, bull. I'm saying a bull. You fucking Michigan fuck.

Fuck you too. I'm glad, I'm glad that california and texas can finally ally for something but so his i talked to his spokesperson and they continually said we will get you in contact with him it never happened but i did talk to the next layer of spokesperson up i don't know how their ranking system works the real onion yeah um so they uh again kind of circle talked to me then he linked me to a blog entry which is just the entry under robert bale's name on their website which i definitely read by them um and then i read it just to make sure and then i responded again are you advocating for the release of robert bale's

they then copy and pasted the blog entry and put it into an email so then i finally restated my question i think it was three or four times and they gave me an answer it's a fucking long one uh and i'm not a journalist and fairness is not really in my vocabulary um but i will read the response in full because as mike mcginnis has warned me they're almost certainly listening to this episode. Sweet. What's up, guys? Quote, Lieutenant. So this is a pretty long email. So give me some time. Quote, Lieutenant Colonel Gerfein and the UAP continues to advocate for the presidential review of Bob Bale's case,

including exhuming all bodies of those who Bob was alleged to have killed so that their biometrics can be compared to those contained in U.S. government databases. This database contains biometrics of every known combatant and bomb maker. Of note, no U.S. personnel ever verified who or how many people were actually killed.

We request an evaluation of Bob's mens rea, which is a legalese term I am not familiar with, at the time, to include the impact mefloquine had on his mental state and his decision-making ability. Mefloquine is a malaria pill. We request an explanation as to why enemy combatants

were flown into America, placed on Delta Airlines with U.S. citizens and allowed to testify against Bob during his sentences, and taken to SeaWorld and then flown back to Afghanistan and released. We'll talk about that. Also of note, Bob never stood trial. He was

coerced into signing a confession which neither verified nor was consistent with the actions Bob claims to have taken nor the amount and status, quote, in parentheses, enemy or civilian, of people Bob was alleged to have killed. He did so to avoid risk being sentenced to the death penalty. Bob was motivated to sign this inaccurate confession by his wife.

She urged him to do so so that the government, which has a 98 percent conviction rate in courts, marshals would not take his life. She admitted she wanted him to stay alive for her and their two children. Bob's wife then moved closer to USDB at Fort Leavenworth so they could continue to support her husband and Bob and his children could spend time together daily, which they do to this day. Bob has acknowledged and regrets that he has killed non-civilian combatants.

However, he claims that he actually killed 20, not 16 that he confessed to. Weird flex. Also, they are not all non-combatants if this is true bob's intent was to kill taliban enemy combatants and actually did so then those non-combatants who he had killed as tragic as it was would be identified as cases of quote collateral damage quote the quotes are there's collateral damage is how we classify all unfortunate non-combatant deaths resulting from the actions of our warriors

when they are engaged in the killing of enemy combatants, not, quote, murder. Once all the details of Bob's cases are known, Lieutenant Colonel Gerfine, whatever, and the UAP will determine the appropriate next steps, which could include advocating for Bob's release. End quote. Okay.

There's a lot to unpack there, and I don't want to be the one to do it. So I got in contact with a member of the prosecution team that put Robert Bales in prison for the rest of his life. I'm not comfortable calling him Bob. Robert? Yeah. And Gerfine should forever henceforth be called Bull.

So I was not able to unpack a lot of that because a lot of its legalese and a lot of its obvious lies so i ended up getting in contact kind of accidentally with a member of the prosecution team that put robert bales in prison i will not say who it was i'll just say he was a very high ranking officer and had no business speaking to me um now uh he did his best to explain why all of this and it's a very long email which i'll not quote because it kind of outs who he is um but every he goes line by line and says why all of it is lies um for obvious legal reasons like collateral damage is not a term that the united states court uses um their conviction rate is not 98 percent um they had forensic evidence from his

weapons to include blood inside the barrel of a gun meaning it was a contact shot meaning a shot of execution I could go on there was a two year old child that was killed there was signs of knife wounds and blood on his knife

they actually offered nine different expert witnesses to testify on behalf of Meflaquin not having any kind of impact on his mental state. They turned it down. In short, they're lying. It's the long and short of it. They're lying. Also, why are these important people

speaking to me? But wait. Wait. No, I don't want to wait. Those, okay. They were not enemy combatants. They were just Afghans. They were Afghans from the village, eyewitnesses, or audio witnesses to the massacre, or family members thereof.

Yes. Some of them, like we have talked about before, were probably related to members of the Taliban because who fucking isn't at this point? And when you come in and kill 60 between 16 and 20, also weird fucking flex. He says it's 20 now that of course they're going to be in the Taliban. Now I, I didn't mean to bring up Robert Bales during this episode,

but Clint Lawrence, Rob Bales share the same attorney and Robert Bales in the documentary. And he blames his actions and, and the, the increased scrutiny on war crimes to why Clint Lawrence got thrown in prison. It's fucking disgusting.

Yeah. Just fucking gross. Yeah. Yep. I hate them all so much. Yep. Mm-hmm. And this is why Mike McGinnis

called this attorney a fucking scumball on Hell of a Way to Die, which then got the podcast introduced as federal evidence. Which is fucking awesome. It's hilarious. Good job, Nate and Francis. It gets worse. You want to know how it gets worse?

No. On November 15th 2019, President Donald J. Trump parodied Clint Lowrance, Matt Goldstein, and restored the rank of Eddie Gallagher, who will now be able to retire at the pay rate of E7! Yep. Yep. It happens. This episode's awesome. It'll happen.

Now, I'm not super familiar with Goldstein's case. Goldstein, I'm not sure which one. I didn't do a lot of research on him. I just know he's accused of kidnapping and murdering an Afghan guy who we thought was a Taliban bomb maker in him. I just know he's accused of kidnapping and murdering an Afghan guy who we thought was a Taliban bomb maker. Yep. A crime he openly

admitted to doing during a Fox News interview. Because of course he did. He then dug up the body because he thought he was going to get killed. Oh yeah, did I mention he buried it in a shallow grave

because he did that. And then he dug it up, drug it to a different place, and then burned it. And then buried that. So you didn't bring that up. Because that's what an innocent guy does.

Yeah. That's what an innocent guy does. Yeah. That's what an innocent person does. And after that, almost immediately after that, Clint Lawrence walked out of Leavenworth a free man wearing his dress uniform, his rank restored, and now on official active status in the United States Army.

How do you guys feel about that? Now, I would not ask you your opinions on an active duty lieutenant because i know you're not allowed to shit talk them but since these guys are all going on the news now talking about how dumb generals are i feel like you're good yeah so say what you will feel bad for the officer corps i don't feel bad for the officer corps you know that's somehow the worst thing said during this entire episode because like of all the fucking insults of everything that we

said there's an NCO that's like I just feel bad for the officer corps which I think it's the first time any of you have ever said that it's like I just I'm not mad I'm disappointed it's more upsetting yeah that he's fucking active like he's not in jail

oh and you know I don't, he's not in jail. Oh, and you know, I don't know. No, not just not in jail. Fucking active member. Exactly. Because, I mean, and this is true. He didn't get clemency like Chelsea Manning. He got a pardon. So his crimes have never happened legally.

There's no reason for the army to kick him out. It doesn't exist anymore. So I don't, I think he got like six years worth of back pay and he's going to be promoted like immediately unless there's some other like legalese way to get around that. Maybe going on Fox News and shit talking generals is a really good way to like not promote him, but I don't know. Oh, also now he and all those other war criminals i just named uh the last three gallagher goldstein and lorenz are all gonna go and campaign with the president for re-election which is also a massive violation of rules and ethics isn't it great that doesn't change my mind about the

president yep this is why we drink if that's If that's any indication of anything, I still feel the exact same about our POTUS. I somehow... Now, in the last two days, I recorded my interview with Mike McGinnis yesterday. We're now recording this today. I did not know it was possible to hate someone more than I already hated war criminals

because there's not many people above war criminals that you hate because it encompasses every crime. Murder, rape, there's not many people above war criminals that you hate. Because that encompasses like every crime. Murder, rape, you name it. Like, it encompasses all those things. Uh, genocide, you know. I somehow hate Clint Lawrence more. Like, some of the worst, man. Like, I, at least Robert Bale's

like, yeah, I fucked up. Like, say what you will, but he acknowledged he killed like a lot of people he shouldn't. Until, like, he realized he might get a pardon now. I don't think, I do not think that will happen, though. There is no fucking way. Don't fucking say that. You don't.

Just don't. All right, I'll say, maybe if Trump loses re-election, Robert Bale gets out of prison. What? Yeah. If he loses? Yeah. Why? Because at that point, he has nothing left to lose.

Oh. Yep. That makes sense. Yeah. So, I'm not saying that's nothing left to lose. Oh. Yep. That makes sense. So, I'm not saying that's like a good reason to not go vote against him. I don't mean it that way. Well, I feel dirty now. You should. This is a great episode. I loved it. Just now remember

when you guys put on your dress blues like next week? So did he when he left prison. Yeah, I just wore them fucking Wednesday. And now, to make everybody feel better a question from the Legion I just want everybody to know also if you don't feel better that Laika

looks really adorable right now yeah she's really the only thing holding this room together whenever we get really sad and I start screaming and I start doing the Bernie Sanders fingered pointing gesture at these two which I do a lot we all just look over at Laika. And she looks so cute, just curled up on a body pillow.

So now we're going to move to a question from the Legion. And so for people who are unaware, Question of the Legion is the dumb name that I gave to questions that people ask us on Patreon or through our Twitter DMs. If you would like to ask us a question, donate to the Patreon, even a dollar.

Shoot us a message through there and we will answer it on air. So now our question that we have today, I'm going to try to lighten it up a bit because we have a lot of serious ones too. We've done that enough today. What is your favorite regional food from where you're from?

You guys just looked at each other. Yeah, why did you both just look at me? I'm looking straight ahead because you're both on the same side of the table. I mean, Mexican food, okay what yeah like specifically yeah yes oh my god you named a very large genre of foods mexican yeah all of it because i miss it so much because i'm in the fucking northwest right now and there's no good mexican food so you don't have a very that's a very rich answer of you. Are you are you the fucking Pete Buttigieg

of Mexican food? Yes. I can't name anything specific, but I feel very strongly about it. OK, let me think further. Nick, you go. I really like see I'd like to do a top five,

but I'm not going to just one. I'm going to do one. I'm going to do Indian. OK, because I'm not going to. Just one. Just give me one fucking food. I'm going to do Indian. You're from California, but go on. Sorry. Am I not allowed to like it? It is not a regional food from California at all. Yeah, but it's all from my region.

Yes, I said that. Oh, my fault. I wasn't listening completely. Story of my life. At least this podcast. That's very true. I wasn't listening completely. Story of my life. At least this podcast. That's very true. I'd have to go with tacos. Thanks. You fucking asshole.

Why did you just call me an asshole? Because you like tacos. Just because. Everybody likes tacos. If somebody doesn't like tacos, they're probably an ISIS. And you know what? Even ISIS is like, you know, America's really bad. But the tacos, though.

I'm from Michigan, obviously, since they just insulted the way I speak. And I have to say the county dog. The county dog is fucking delicious. And they're both looking like they have no idea what that is. And that's fine. That's fine. This is fine. And you know what? If you get a county dog

from anywhere that isn't Michigan, it's just a sparkling tube of meat like champagne. It has to be from the Champagne region of France. All right, Rich. Okay, I'm going to go with tortilla soup. That's like my ultimate comfort food. I like how you guys are from- I would have gone with soup.

Soup is not a regional food. There's specific kinds of soup. If you ask somebody from New England what their favorite chowder is, they're not going to say, I like chowder in you ask somebody from New England what their favorite chowder is, they're not going to say, I like chowder in general. They're going to say fucking clam chowder. That's why I said tortilla soup. Thank you, Reg. You're not the problem here

right now. Yeah, but I wouldn't have gone with soup. This non-food-knowing motherfucker across the table from here. Anyway, thank you guys for joining me again on the Depression Circle or the War Crimes Cast. It's just another one. We're not doing another one of these for a while, guys.

Just thanks. Thanks, everyone. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for sharing and subscribing to our podcast. If you like what we do, our show will always be free and it will always be ad-free. But if you want to support what we do you can donate to us on patreon and there's all sorts of perks and bonuses that I will not

completely get into but you get a whole lot for because we've already been going for almost an hour and a half now but thank you for so much for supporting us thank you for putting up with our dumb bullshit and soup takes Nick I just wouldn't have gone with soup I would have gone with something a little bit, you know.

Soup is the fucking most versatile food you could possibly eat. What would your other one? I like bread. God! Until next time.