Mark Bell's Power Project - Are Carbs Necessary for Optimum Performance? Experts Weigh In - SUPER CUT

Starting point is 00:00:00 Why the shift away from carbohydrates completely? Because I am a full-blown sugar addict. Carbohydrates are for the f***ing week. How well can people perform on a diet that doesn't really have hardly any carbohydrates? Who are the biggest, strongest guys on the planet? Bodybuilders, they're all eating carbohydrate as well. Can you build muscle without carbohydrates? Sure you can.

Starting point is 00:00:22 Is it the most optimal? Probably not. If I was a bodybuilder, how I utilize the high- day would be different than if I was a power lifter. I had to start taking drastic measures and going, you know, anywhere from one to two and even sometimes a little bit over three months, zero carbs. You need to eat carbs for high performance training. You need to eat carbs to burn carbs. Stan Efferding and Dr. Sean Baker. We were talking earlier about carbohydrates and kind of how they can help with, you know, I guess somebody making their diet more optimal for performance and things like that. And so you were kind of mentioning that, you know,

Starting point is 00:01:00 having a good amount of protein in your diet is something that is going to help with protein synthesis and stuff like that. So I'd like to open up some dialogue and talk about this a little bit more because there are people that, if I say war on carbs, if I say I like eating meat or it's World Carnivore Month, people are like, well, why don't you just eat carbs? And for me, it's not necessarily that the carbs are going to do anything bad. I don't believe that they're going to make me fat. It just throws my diet off. I like to be kind of locked in on my diet. And it's World Carnivore Month, so I'm taking it as a challenge as well.

Starting point is 00:01:35 How well can people perform on a diet that doesn't really have hardly any carbohydrates? And what happens to the body when we're not eating carbs? You were mentioning you're like, I think you were mentioning your like glucose goes up, but how does your glucose go up when you don't eat any carbs? Yeah. Well, I mean, our body is very good at defending and leaving us in a homeostatic place. You know, it doesn't matter, you know, what our sodium intake is. We, we, we tightly regulate our acid-based amounts is really tightly regulated. And even though I don't eat carbohydrates or any appreciable amount of it, my blood glucose never goes to zero.

Starting point is 00:02:09 I mean, you just can't exist that way. Nor would you want it to. Nor would I want it to. I mean, it can get pretty low, and there's some interesting studies Cahill did in the 60s where he starved people, got them starving where their blood glucose was 40 milligrams per deciliter, and then he would give them insulin on top of that, and then they'd be down to 10. And normally that would kill most people, but because they were compensating, milligrams per deciliter. And then he would give them insulin on top of that. And then they'd be down to 10. And normally that would kill most people. But because they were compensating, they did well with that.

Starting point is 00:02:29 But I mean, because I eat a lot of protein and to some degree fat, you know, I eat plenty of calories. You know, there's something called gluconeogenesis. Most of us are aware of. You can turn amino acids into glucose. And you can turn the glycerol from triglycerides into glucose, and that stores in your liver, and you just have it, and you become very efficient at that. Also, your muscle glycogen is refilled, maybe not to the extent that you would with carbohydrates.

Starting point is 00:03:00 But, I mean, again, how much do you actually need to perform? We had a good workout. I mean, I would say I hung with everybody pretty well. That's great. And I think that's something that you can do very well with that. And I've gotten, you know, there's guys in the NFL now on the carnivore diet. There's professional MMA fighters on the carnivore diet. They're all doing well.

Starting point is 00:03:18 It's not for everyone, for sure. There are people that just don't feel very good with that, and I don't know why that is yet. I mean, maybe there's some people that don't eat enough one of the things you know we'd say and i talked about is you know fueling yourself properly and if you just don't have an appetite and then you expect yourself to go perform at a world-class level that's going to be hard to do so you have to be able to eat carbohydrates help you to eat more there's some impacts on some of the satiety hormones we know there's studies that support that so you to eat more, there's some impacts on some of the satiety hormones. We know there's studies that support that. So you can eat more, which is going to have an impact. We also know that

Starting point is 00:03:49 carbohydrates are going to be very effective at restoring glycogen, which can be beneficial as well. I think that when it comes to muscle building, can you build muscle without carbohydrates? Sure you can. Is it the most optimal, most effective and efficient way? Probably not. I mean, again, I think as much of the studies we have, you can point to flaws in all these studies. You can say, what else are you looking at?

Starting point is 00:04:13 When I look at, you know, who are the biggest, strongest guys on the planet? You know, when I look at bodybuilders, they're all eating a high protein diet for sure. They're all training their asses off with mostly high volume in many cases, but they're eating some carbohydrate as well. And I think that's, you know, the effect

Starting point is 00:04:30 may be a performance benefit. It may be an appetite and calorie benefit. And so I think that's important. But I mean, again, do you have to do it that way? No, you don't. And there's reasons, you know, like for some people, and perhaps as we get older, carbohydrates become problematic because then you, like we said, the positive benefits of supporting appetite may be negative because you may eat too much body fat if you're not matching it with training output. The other thing is for some people, they have, you know, I don't demonize carbohydrates or glucose, but what I do say is there are certain compounds and certain foods that are gut irritants. And Stan's done a very good job of the vertical diet and saying, some of these foods just negatively impact your gut. And so we need to know what they are. And most of the diseases, I believe, start in the gut. These autoimmune diseases, mental health issues probably start in the gut, skin issues, psoriasis,

Starting point is 00:05:23 all the things that occur. So if you can fix your gut and heal your gut, you know, skin issues, psoriasis, all the things that occur. So if you can fix your gut and heal your gut, and I think a lot of us are dealing with dysfunctional guts, dysbiosis, you know, hyperpermeability, and that's probably because of the modern diet. So many people are eating this complete garbage diet. So we've ruined our gut. We've ruined our ability to properly process the nutrients in the good foods we should normally eat. And so we have people that now they can't tolerate whatever certain fruits and vegetables, which sounds crazy, but it is what it is in many cases. And you have to restore that and fix that.

Starting point is 00:05:54 And later on, like we see a lot of people that do a carnivore diet for three months, six months, they'll deal with whatever issues they have. And then they can start adding food back in, which is kind of cool. Yeah, eliminate and reintroduce. I talk about that. Your thoughts here with the carbs, in regards to carbs. Yeah, you know, I talked about this, I think,

Starting point is 00:06:14 first on Mike Mutzel's podcast, where I discussed the fact that, you know, you can get to the top of the entire state building taking the stairs, but the elevator's probably a little faster, a little better idea. And then subsequently that on Paul Saladino's podcast. And I kind of went over the muscle physiology as we know it now as compared to the way we used to think it. again, as Sean said, specifically for that 1% of the population that's looking for optimum performance, anaerobic training in particular,

Starting point is 00:07:00 I think that the carbohydrates have demonstrated to provide the benefit of enabling you to get one more rep or do one more set, maybe give you a little more stamina and endurance in the gym for an anaerobic workout. And we see that there seems to be an equivalent benefit from getting fat adapted in terms of endurance. We're hard. It's hard, hard pressed to, to see the advantage of carbohydrates there,

Starting point is 00:07:17 except for maybe in that given event over probably 90 minutes with every 15 minute periodic intake of, of carbs, and water, as the ISSN recommends. But with respect to muscle physiology for that 1% of the population, the way that Brad Schoenfeld describes it in his book, Hypertrophy, what we see now is that we used to think the carbohydrates were stored in the muscle as one thing. now is that we used to think the carbohydrates were stored in the muscle as one thing. And they would do that by grinding up the muscle and looking at the carbohydrate glycogen depletion for any given workout. And they said, well, you're only depleting 40% of your glycogen. So how could it be that big a deal? Well, apparently carbohydrates are stored in different locations. The sarcoplasm is one in particular that it seems to be the last filled and the first depleted and in the muscle the sarcoplasm those carbohydrates seem to trigger the calcium channel that is responsible for firing that's the tropamine tropomyosin

Starting point is 00:08:20 channel that allows for the cross bridging for the actin myosin contractions. So for those who study muscle physiology, that'll be very familiar and probably somewhat rudimentary, but that's depleted first. And so that might, just like creatine, might give you in the creatine phosphate system one more rep by renewing that first 10 seconds. The first 30 seconds, having an abundance of carbohydrates available might help. There's also another component to that. And I think that's partly that some of hypertrophy isn't just the muscle fiber, it's the fluid in the sarcoplasm as well. And some of the hypertrophy benefits that are derived, probably as much as 20% potentially, could be from the fluid expansion and the compression of the

Starting point is 00:09:12 cells provides a hypertrophy benefit, which you can obtain from more carbs, which obviously hold three parts water and then sodium. So there could be a muscle breakdown benefit. It's small. could be a muscle breakdown benefit, it's small. And it might help with adding one more rep, five more pounds, one more set throughout the workout. And the cumulative effect of that over time, this wouldn't be anything you'd see immediately. Although in powerlifting, we do find that the fuller we are,

Starting point is 00:09:42 we used to intentionally try and get ourselves as loaded as possible right before a meat with some carb and salt loading, particularly after weigh-ins, would help with some of that compressive force with the muscles. So there's a benefit there. I also found that when you look at most of the diet literature, we talked about how important the carnivore diet can be or an elimination diet might be for initial intervention for things like diabetes, for obesity, digestion digestion issues we talked about the FODMAP menu and a whole host of other disorders that people present often I see present within on your website as well it seems that people like we said six out of seven people go on a diet lose weight the vast majority of them gain

Starting point is 00:10:24 it back within a certain period of time, one to three years, up to probably 90%. It seems like when they go off the diet, they tend to migrate back towards a balance of proteins, fats, and carbs. We also see pretty good literature to suggest that like a 40% carbohydrate, I hate to put a number on it. I will say that 30% or north of protein seems to be the most beneficial macronutrient that everybody should include. Where you put fats and carbs, as we saw in the DietPits trial out of Stanford,

Starting point is 00:10:54 a one-year trial on over 600 people, that where they put carbs and fats didn't seem to matter in terms of weight loss or insulin output. And we also see that in terms of these high glycemic versus low glycemic carbs. If you're controlled for calories and protein, if you eat high glycemic or low glycemic carbs, it doesn't seem to affect weight loss. And so it's really, like you mentioned, it's really a choice. What's your preference? What can you sustain over

Starting point is 00:11:20 time? And how do you feel on the diet? Power Project Family, we talk about beef and meat all the time on the podcast. That's why we partner with Certified Piedmontese Beef. But did you know this? That 85% of all grass-fed, grass-finished beef in the United States is imported from other countries? 85%. Damn.

Starting point is 00:11:37 But Certified Piedmontese is made in the U.S. of A. America. America. Fuck yeah. So go ahead and get some of the best tasting, some of the leanest, some of the best beef from Piedmontese. Andrew, how can they get it? Absolutely. So you guys can head over to cpbeef.com and check out enter promo code power to save 25% off your entire order. And if your order is $150 or more, you get free two day shipping. Again, cpbeef.com,

Starting point is 00:12:03 links to them down in the description, as well as the podcast show notes fuck yeah this I'm curious about this because Sean you've been doing carnivore for a long time do you think that there's and and Stan too do you think that there's something that people need to think about as they age because we know that individuals insulin resistance gets worse as they get older generally. I think you've eaten less carbs over the years, haven't you? Brought them down a bit. Yeah, particularly if I'm not training at the same intensity

Starting point is 00:12:31 or if I'm traveling and I don't want to be as hungry as often or as hangry, I don't get the same degree of hunger if I reduce carbs and increase proteins and fats. But it takes a few days to get, quote, unquote, fat adapted. We see that with like those oral glucose tolerance tests, et cetera. If you're fat adapted and you go in and hit yourself with a shot of glucola, you're going to spike and it's going to look crazy. You have to kind of reintroduce carbs before you do something like that.

Starting point is 00:13:01 So your body will respond acutely based on your current level of adaptation. Yeah, I mean, you specifically asked about as you get older. Yeah, especially athletes. As much as I hate to admit that, I'll include myself there now. Sorry. I keep thinking I'm in my 20s.

Starting point is 00:13:16 But I think some of the misconceptions that I find out there is that older athletes can't train hard. And I think there's some issues around you can only do a third of what you could do in your twenties. I'm not personally, I'm not finding that. I mean, I continue to train hard. You know, Stan, you, I saw a funny post of you about talking about, you know, when I was going in and max it every day, I was hitting 600 pound bench. And now I've listened to the science. I'm down to whatever, 400 or something like that. But I think, you know, there's this expectation that, you know, as I get older, I'm just going to get weaker and I'm not going to be able to train hard.

Starting point is 00:13:51 And I think that's a problem. That's setting yourself up for failure. And I don't, you know, I don't approach it that way. I'm like, I want to, you know, for instance, I mean, today we do these deadlifts. This was a lifetime PR for me. I hit today, two days shy of my 50th. 22 reps, 415 pounds, trap bar deadlifts. Yes, and deadstop.

Starting point is 00:14:08 That was the thing. I wanted to make sure it was deadstop. Turn the camera on and have Andre Milanochip screaming in your ear. It's bound to do that. Yeah, it helps. But I mean, it's something that, so I mean, you know, and I haven't been doing it my whole life.

Starting point is 00:14:18 I'd say for the last maybe four or five years I've been playing with that. And so at least I'm better than I was four or five years ago. And so I think that one is that, again, the average person in the U.S. and even the average gym goer is probably under eating protein. You know, like Stan and I both think 30% is kind of the minimum bar of entry for protein consumption.

Starting point is 00:14:39 If you, you know, maybe you're up 40%, 50%. If you're trying to get leaner, you might even have more protein in there. So I think that has a uniquely beneficial effect on your ability to stay strong, keep the lean muscle mass. And then for me, I find that for whatever reason, a carnivore diet allows me to recover better. And so, like I said, you know,

Starting point is 00:15:00 I'm doing jujitsu now. I'm still training hard. I'm doing all these things. And I find that, I mean, I'll wake up tomorrow and I'm going to train hard again. Yeah. You know, whereas maybe if I were on a different situation, and I'm not saying one diet, but I mean a standard American diet, I think it's inflammatory in general, you know, for whatever reason. 70% processed food. Yeah, you can put processed food there.

Starting point is 00:15:21 It's probably the biggest. Well, fat. Fat is inflammatory. Body. Well, yeah, body fat. Yeah, body fat. Yeah, there's put the processed food there. It's probably the biggest. Well, fat. Fat is inflammatory. Body fat. Yeah, body fat. Yeah, body fat. Yeah, there's inflammatory cytokines. So, I mean, it's one of those things where if you can stay lean and strong,

Starting point is 00:15:33 I think you can train even old. And, you know, I mean, my goal is when I'm 90, I'm hoping I'm coming to super training gym with these guys and we're going to do some deadlifts. I mean, that's the plan, you know. Yeah. You know, let me jump in here and say a couple of things. If I can recall, I should have had my pen and paper out. Um,

Starting point is 00:15:49 one thing in particular is that a lot of people think, and some of the literature suggested, I think even when Jordan Tromlin did his PhD, uh, he did a PhD on protein metabolism and a lot of the information that we've been utilizing about, uh about protein comes from his work and others. We talked about the fact that people become less sensitive muscle protein synthesis as they age. But more and more of the recent research suggests that's because of sarcopenia. It's because they lost muscle and aren't using it as much or maybe as heavy as they used to. Uh, and so I would suggest to say that,

Starting point is 00:16:27 that, uh, you know, lifting and building muscle, um, at irrespective of age, I don't think we see it until we get much older, even about the end of our sixties or seventies, where we start to see a decline. We're seeing now that people in their fifts and older are retaining muscle protein synthesis from an equivalent bolus of protein at 40 grams for maybe 100% maximization muscle protein synthesis. Another thing you said with respect to you just recover better and feel stronger on steak and eggs. A couple things, a couple components to that. Menel Henselman wrote about this recently and Alan Argon's done some research on this as well and printed on it.

Starting point is 00:17:04 Cholesterol. that mental Hanselman wrote about this recently. Now in Oregon has done some research on this as well and printed on it. Uh, cholesterol. It, it does appear when you look at, uh, at, uh, two groups of people who have equivalent calories and protein intake. One group has egg whites.

Starting point is 00:17:14 The other group has whole eggs that the whole egg group, uh, is, uh, getting a much greater hypertrophy and strength outcome as a result. And the presumption initially was micronutrients. Uh, and now it's suggested from subsequent studies that it's possibly the cholesterol hypertrophy and strength outcome as a result. And the presumption initially was micronutrients. And now it's suggested from subsequent studies that it's possibly the cholesterol that's providing us the benefit.

Starting point is 00:17:30 Thank you. I managed to remember those two things. I appreciate it. And, you know, obviously saturated fats are a contributor to that. And the thing to watch out for is if you, you know, you are, do have a propensity to predisposition to accumulate LDLs as a result of that if you're not clearing them fast enough. Although exercise certainly helps with that. But yeah, cholesterol.

Starting point is 00:17:52 And I've mentioned this with respect to kids' diets. I told the story before about I was at the airport and I was standing behind a gentleman with two young boys, probably, I don't know, seven and nine years old. And he turned around, he looked at me and he's's like, see, boys, I'm telling you. He nods at me. He said, if you want to get big and strong, you got to eat your vegetables. And I looked at him, and I said, are you asking? And he goes, yeah, tell them.

Starting point is 00:18:14 And I said, boys, if you want to get big and strong, you got to eat steak, eggs, and milk. And he kind of looked at me in shock, but I'm dead serious. I'm the guy who we've discussed before who had delayed onset puberty because I was working at 7-eleven and eating the crap there the hot dogs and nacho cheese pump crackers and soda pops from the time I

Starting point is 00:18:35 was 12 at the time I was 16 it's not until I went back to Pennsylvania my senior year high school and lived with my uncle that I started eating you know steaks and bacon and lard. And the neighbor had a dairy farm where we got whole milk straight from the cow with the four inches of cream on the top and the glass bottle that you had to shake. And next thing you know, I put on 20 pounds in six months, you know, went through puberty finally as a 17 year old senior in high school. So there is a foundation that's necessary and beneficial. And that's why I did a video talking about the importance of cholesterol, the importance of whole eggs. And even I talked about eating chicken, what did I say?

Starting point is 00:19:15 Instead of chicken breast, eating chicken thigh. Yeah. Higher in cholesterol and easier and more fun to eat. And again, the caveat to that being, you know, this is for a fit, you know, individual who doesn't have adverse effects and only a blood test can really tell you where you fall in terms of that genetic predisposition. Dr. Baker, have you ever had any like pain and injuries and stuff like that, like prior to the carnivore diet? Like what were some of the struggles before? Because you've been on it for five years and we see how well you're thriving now,

Starting point is 00:19:45 but you were a Highland Games athlete previously, did some rugby. Did you, and, because it doesn't seem like you have any pain now. It seems like you're kicking ass. Yeah, I mean, I, and, you know, part of that is my whole career, I realized the importance of hardening my body

Starting point is 00:20:00 for those athletic activities. You know, I was training. I was, you know was trying to prepare myself. I'm kind of an over-preparer. I'm kind of, I'm not particularly tough, so I like to be over-prepared. So when it's time to compete, you're like, it's not so bad for you.

Starting point is 00:20:15 But I mean, I did have some very significantly and severe quadriceps tendonitis. And I remember I was squatting one time, I was doing a 500 pound squat, and I had a little pop right above my kneecap. And so I think I partially tore my quadriceps tendonitis and i remember i was squatting one time i was doing a 500 pound squat and i had a little pop right above my kneecap and so i think i partially tore my quadriceps and i was you know i was working you know my my orthopedic surgeon partner we took some x-rays and there was nothing major but it was just enough and it hurt me you know for about eight years uh prior to going on a carnivore and you know it would affect my ability to train because some days

Starting point is 00:20:43 you know when your knees hurt you don't feel like squatting or you don't feel like training. And that, I went on carnivore, and I remember about two months, and as an orthopedic surgeon, I was dealing with tendonitis all the time. And so I knew what to do from the literature, all the different eccentric loading and stretching

Starting point is 00:20:59 and all these other modalities that we have to treat that. And I tried all those things and it never went away. I went on a carnivore diet, and I within two months my quadriceps tendonitis which had bothered me literally every day for eight years went away completely and it's never come back which i thought was really really interesting now you know do i occasionally get strains and aches and pains now because i still train pretty hard yeah i mean i you know i get done with a hard night of jiu jitsu the next day i'm kind of like, uh, you know, but I mean, it's generally, um, so much better now at 55 than it was, you know, 10, 15 years ago at 40 and 45. So it's, so it's, it's clearly better.

Starting point is 00:21:35 Today I'm going to talk to you about the war on carbs. War on carbs is something that I've been practicing since I was a teenager. War on carbs is something that I've been practicing since I was a teenager. I started in the mid-90s, 1995 to be exact. And I've utilized a ketogenic style diet on and off for many, many years. Doing many variations of a ketogenic style diet. Doing just experimenting with low carb diets as well as cyclical ketogenic style diets the war on carbs though is a different style of diet where you go into you go into ketosis without any real plan about when you're going to come out. Because I know and you know that there's going to be a breaking point.

Starting point is 00:22:29 I know and you know that there's going to be a holiday, a birthday, a something, a this or that. But what I'm challenging all of you to do is to try to go 30 days, 20 days, 12 days. Even if you go five days and then you only go three days and then you go two days and then you go 10 days, it's gonna be better off than you having a planned cheat day. My big fat diet, the ketogenic style diet, the war on carbs is a high fat, very, very low carbohydrate diet that consists of moderate amounts of protein, especially to start.

Starting point is 00:23:12 As you get more into the diet, the diet is going to change and you're going to be more health conscious. And you're going to shift into eating more vegetables, keeping the protein a little higher, and actually getting the fat down a little bit. I do not think it's a good idea to go out of your way to eat fats. I don't think it's a good idea to chug down coconut oil, olive oil, avocado oil. I don't think it's a good idea to go out of your way to really soak up any of these extra fats, except for when you are trying to get into ketosis. Some of that may be a little bit necessary. Adding it to your coffee, adding butter to your eggs, things of that nature.

Starting point is 00:23:59 But trust me, folks, when I tell you it's not a pretty sight, if you try to go down that rabbit hole too far and you add coconut oil and all these different things to your foods, you're going to be blowing out the old O-ring, and that's not good for anybody. Here's the diet. Here's what it consists of. For protein and fat sources, you have a lot of different variations of meat.

Starting point is 00:24:29 We have chicken. We have steak, we have fish, and we have pork. Within that, there's a wide range of foods that you can eat. I personally am a big fan of steak. What kind of steak? Choose the ones that you like best and stick with them. choose the ones that you like best and stick with them. And also, why not switch things up a little bit and have some variety? When it comes to sauces, I'm not too worried about sprinkled in carbohydrates here and there. I'm not all that concerned with that. However, teriyaki sauce is taking it a little bit too far. Teriyaki sauce typically has too much sugar it'd be hard to get in ketosis if you ate teriyaki sauce with several meals or even maybe even once it might have a lot more sugar than you originally anticipated so

Starting point is 00:25:20 those are some of the meats now you you can also have cured meats, salami, pepperoni, any kind of cured meats that you like, really. I try to get them so they're nitrate free, so they have less junk in them. Other fat and protein sources are going to be from cheeses. Other fat and protein sources are going to be from cheeses. What kind of cheese? You pick. When it comes to fat sources, we'll move into just straight up fat sources. You have a lot of variations of salad dressings. Now, you're going to want to try to go as healthy as you can.

Starting point is 00:26:01 I suggest some of Mark Sisson's products. He makes really good oils that are usually derived from avocado oil and not canola oil. Canola oil and some of these vegetable oils can be quite dangerous for us in larger amounts. So you want to kind of watch your consumption of those. We have olive oil, avocado oil, macadamia nut oil. A lot of those oils are great for cooking. A lot of those oils are great to blend into some of our foods. And those are some options that you want to look into.

Starting point is 00:26:39 Aside from that, olives themselves are great. Avocados are great. Nuts are great. Cashews. Walnuts. Puts are great. Cashews, walnuts, pistachios, macadamia nuts. All those things are fair game on a ketogenic style diet. I personally love almonds probably the most out of all of them. And I usually just get them straight up plain raw almonds.

Starting point is 00:27:04 I like those quite a bit. I don't know if I mentioned eggs already, but eggs are a great source of protein and fat. As we move into the carbohydrate section, the only thing that you're allowed to have, the only thing that you're allowed to have is vegetables. So you don't have a lot of choices when it comes to carbohydrates. We can explain it further at another time, how that you, how it comes to be that you have more variety with your carbohydrates later on. But in the beginning, you're going to want to abstain from them. You're going to want to try to stay away from them. Those are some of the foods that you have access to.

Starting point is 00:27:52 The foods I just mentioned, those are some of the foods that you want to shop for and that you want to have readily available to you. Cheese sticks become really important. I eat a good amount of cheese. I like the amount of calcium. You might want to not want to overdo it with the cheese cause it can cause constipation in some people sometimes. Uh, let's see what the fuck else do we got food wise. So I went over the different various forms of food. The next time I hit up one of these podcasts, I'll talk about a diet that can go along with the war on carbs. But remember, this is a challenge. I'm trying to get you to reset your metabolism, pay attention to what

Starting point is 00:28:39 you're eating, gain control of hunger, gain control of these insane food cravings that many of us suffer from. And I'd like you to adhere to some of the foods I just mentioned, um, for 20 plus days. See if you can make it 30. The most amount of days I ever made it was 31. See if you can beat that beat Mark Bell. Uh, let me see some other recommendations. Percentages. I don't care about percentages. Calories. I don't care about calories. Let's, in the beginning of this, let's have you work on cutting out carbohydrates.

Starting point is 00:29:19 Let's have you work on getting the foods correct. Let's have you work on shopping. Let's have you work on the rhythm and the timing of how all this is going to act. A couple things to be weary of while on a ketogenic style diet. It can dehydrate the hell out of you. So make sure you're drinking enough liquid. You're going to want to drink a lot of water. In addition to that, you're going to also want to add quite a bit of salt to your foods and sometimes even to your water. You know you're doing it right want to add quite a bit of salt to your foods and sometimes even to your water you know you're doing it right if you don't taste the salt when you add it to your water you're just sprinkling some in here and there throughout the day because the ketogenic diet uh without

Starting point is 00:29:58 carbohydrates carbohydrates they hydrate the body. Without carbohydrates, your body would be depleted a lot of times of some of the nutrients, vitamins, minerals, electrolytes that it needs. So could end up with some cramping. In terms of performance, a ketogenic diet is not superior to a diet that allows for carbohydrates. In terms of aesthetics, in terms of looks, and in terms of getting a hold of what the true problem is with all dieting or with any form of with any effort to diet is most diets don't deal with the root of the problem which is people's addiction to food carbohydrates are not the enemy carbohydrates are great they're great sources of energy and they can help a ton with performance however carbohydrates are

Starting point is 00:30:51 typically extremely tasty and those are going to be the things that we want to overeat ice cream pizza candy and they're just such they're in such abundance and stuff too. So if you eat some mini Snickers bars, you know, those little tiny ones they have around Halloween time and some peanut butter cups and things of that nature, the amount of sugar adds up very fast. If you're listening to this and you're thinking, man, the war on carbs seems way too steep for me. Do me this favor and try something a little different. Just for the next couple of weeks, cut out all forms of sugar, all forms of calories coming from any liquids. Cut out all forms of calories coming from any liquids and drink more water, get more sleep, get to bed on time, go for a 10-minute walk several times a day like I'm doing right now.

Starting point is 00:31:48 This concludes this version of the 10-minute walk talk. You're really manipulating energy a lot, and that's one of the things that the way I first became aware of you was you had the miraculous feat of getting getting dave tate in really good shape uh many years ago but uh carb cycling yeah you know and um but like i've heard people talk a little bit about carb cycling kind of before i saw some of your stuff but um i didn't see uh somebody talk about it in such detail and i also never heard of anybody talking about it at the way that you were talking about it with the amount of carbohydrates for some you know for some of these guys and i think for dave tate it might have been

Starting point is 00:32:29 maybe like 16 yeah we go crazy 1600 grams of carbs in like a given day yeah that sounds absolutely crazy how does how does someone well i'll use you as an example you the average adult male can store about 800 grams of glycogen so you're a more muscular adult male so you could probably easily store a thousand grams of glycogen so let's say we say just from a calorie standpoint just to make easy numbers let's say if we gave you 250 grams of protein 500 grams of carbs and no added fat for the day for five or six meals that would be basically your bmr you'd burn through that you know a hypercaloric diet you want to be it would you want to burn more or or store more so we know you can eat that without gaining fat now let's put you on a diet and so we we're doing low carb days medium carb days and you're depleting you're losing fat because you're in a calorie deficit but you're also losing glycogen because your body's trying to pull from

Starting point is 00:33:19 as many energy sources as it can start getting depleted in glycogen and let's say we go a whole week and now you're 500 grams depleted in glycogen. Half your glycogen is depleted, which probably makes sense. You know, if you've ever been really depleted, you know the difference between being glycogen loaded and depleted. So you're half glycogen depleted. That's 500 grams. Now, we know you can eat 250 grams of protein and 500 grams of carbs without storing anything.

Starting point is 00:33:43 Now let's add 500 more grams of carbs to replace that glycogen. Now you're eating 1,000 grams of carbs without storing anything. Now let's add 500 more grams of carbs to replace that glycogen. Now you're eating a thousand grams of carbs that day and you are storing, you're storing 500 grams of those carbs, which is a lot, but because we're in a glycogen depleted state, you're going to store them preferentially as glycogen rather than fat. So what we get all the benefits of that, your thyroid upregulation, appetite suppression, the glycogen storage, one, making you look bigger, but feel bigger and being stronger in the gym. Your NEAT's gonna be higher the rest of the week, and you're gonna have energy to power through the workouts

Starting point is 00:34:12 where they're low carbs. So for me, it's because you can't cheat thermodynamics, but this is a way to, well, you can't beat thermodynamics. This is a way to kind of cheat the system a little bit. So as far as carb cycling is concerned, because what you mentioned is interesting, and a lot of people are probably like, oh, I can eat 800, 900 grams of carbs in a day,

Starting point is 00:34:29 but what type of athlete should be implementing this? And how can they figure out, okay, like you mentioned, the amount of carbohydrates that they can then store? Well, I mean, you can't know, you can guess, kind of like what we just did, like, and get pretty close to start. But it is interesting because it really varies by sport and athlete so if i was a body builder i would how i utilize the high carb day would be different than if i was a power lifter

Starting point is 00:34:56 and i'll explain so if i'm a bodybuilder all i care about is building muscle i i like being strong but that's not why my performance in the gym is not what matters it's the results of that performance in the gym so i would have my high carb day maybe on a day on a body part i'm trying to bring up say my back's weak so i have my high carb day on the day i train back and that sounds great you think like oh yeah all those cars but your training's probably going to suffer because insulin's a mild central nervous system depressant it's a lot of food yeah yeah you know you'll be bloated uh it increases glomerular filtration rates you're peeing more often increases sodium retention so you you know like you feel sluggish you feel bloated you're peeing all the time you're you just you know but the way insulin

Starting point is 00:35:35 works i hope i don't get sidetracked here so you can always pick every cell in your body has a receptor an insulin receptor and i picture just like that because it's easy you know like then you picture insulin coming in it binds to that receptor what that does is it shifts some proteins around and it shuttles nutrients into the cell so you get increased amino acid uptake increased glycogen storage all things that are anabolic basically so on that high carb day your results of the back training even though your back training might have been worse is that all the nutrients necessary for hypertrophy are there in spades now conversely if you're a powerlifter you don't care how big your muscles are really I mean it's nice to have muscle but you need to move weight so we're

Starting point is 00:36:14 performance based so we don't want to do it on that day like if you have a heavy squat day making that your high day we don't want to be sluggish we don't want to be bloated we we would have the high day the day before that so you're bloated and sluggish the day before then you go into your heavy workout where you need to perform and you have all that glycogen available and so then people say well but i want you know that doesn't make sense i want to have a good workout as a bodybuilder why wouldn't i have it the day before then and i i always use an analogy that i think is a little it's it's kind of a reverse analogy but i think it's easier to explain it. If I were to do cardio to burn fat,

Starting point is 00:36:47 like say I went running and I'm doing it because I want to get leaner, I'm not gonna be drinking Gatorade during the run, I'm not gonna be eating gel packs because I wanna burn fat during the run. And so, but if I was running a marathon to win the Boston Marathon, I would want all those things. So one of them is eating

Starting point is 00:37:05 for performance the other one is eating for the results of the exercise and so that's and so you can do that for all sports like like for mma we would do high days differently because you don't want to be bloated you still want the high day before if you need to exactly i was going to ask you it's like how do some of these other athletes that are on the hook for more movement because like when you go in the gym lower back doesn't yeah it doesn't matter quite as much when you're when you're lifting weights if you're a little bloated and things like that but if you're rolling around doing jiu-jitsu or doing mma or even a runner i think there's a really good case for that actually if you remember it's like old now but when brock fought uh car what's the guy oh yeah carwin shane yeah and shane if you looked at that i remember we watched

Starting point is 00:37:47 that and he came out and he had edema in his lower legs and they talked about how they were loading him and giving him iv bags and he was too full and so he came out great in the first first round but he was adrenaline dump it was completely done the sucker and you know like remember that must have sucked one of those lower back pumps? Imagine going into the second round and having your whole body with that feeling. Against Brock Lesnar. For an MMA, the high day would be

Starting point is 00:38:14 slightly different. We'd still want to be glycogen loaded, but we don't want to be fluid loaded. We'd go lower in carbohydrate. We'd still load higher, but we'd want to be like shove a thousand grams in. We don't want you all stiff and tight and yeah and maybe even would it maybe even potentially do it like the day before if you had oh yeah if you had like an off day and you're a jiu jitsu guy maybe you would do it on the off day because it doesn't matter if you're a sluggish and

Starting point is 00:38:38 then the next day you still have that carb reserve yeah yeah because you're doing it for the performance so it would be basically the same way with the power lifters. You do it the day before for performance. Andrew's writing the shit down. Andrew's like, all right, 1,200 carbs tonight for jiu-jitsu tomorrow. Sounds good to me, yeah. John Anderson. You know, to keep myself strong was always the protein. I never, ever looked at the carbohydrate as a part of the equation to get stronger.

Starting point is 00:39:00 The protein is the building block there. It's the protein, it's the rest, and the stimulation is the training. And the balance is really the key. And then why the shift away from carbohydrates completely? Because I don't think you really eat them hardly at all. Maybe you have a cheat or something here or there. Because I am a full-blown sugar addict. Hands down, cannot look at it any other way.

Starting point is 00:39:22 One of you guys asked me to have a bite of a cookie Well, if I took the bite I would eat your cookie. I did your cookie. Everybody else is in there I eat the box and then I'd take some of these car keys and I'd be headed 7-eleven to get all their cookies Don't eat your fucking cookie Because it's like, you know, I mean being a sugar addict is Is a difficult thing. It's like an you know, I mean, being a sugar addict is a difficult thing. It's like an alcoholic. You can say, okay, don't drink.

Starting point is 00:39:50 You can't tell a guy, you need to go into the bar, have one drink a day. He'd have that drink. He'd be shithouse drunk every day. Well, a sugar addict, you have to avoid sugar. If you have a little bit of sugar, and then what happens is really, as we all know, and especially know we know about nutrition now, everything we eat breaks down into sugar. So if you basically eat, you know, even if you're not eating a straight sugar, I could even eat, you know, plain rice and it would set me off, you know. So to a certain extent, going back to the fat guy on the other side of the mirror, keeping the carbohydrate away keeps him on that side. So the carbohydrate is something that I, it's a tool.

Starting point is 00:40:32 It's a very, very powerful tool, but it can also be a very, very harmful tool. You got to know how to use it. I think you mentioned putting chocolate syrup on here. Sugar-free. Oh, sugar-free. I know. If I was eating cookie, it was not sugar free yeah i i love that like most people have like a phase of like oh i listen to this type of music during

Starting point is 00:40:52 this phase and his phase was eating a pound of bacon every night that's that's insane with ice cream with ice cream yeah but um the question i had is like i mean obviously um it's very successful on your physique but the old mindset of like, no, if I want to build muscle, I need to have the carbs for my workout. So let's break down the macronutrients, right? So we got fat, carbohydrate, and we got protein. Well, as we learn more about all of this, we realize that now it's been proven, it was a question mark before, that excess protein can be broken down into a blood sugar. It's not an easy process for what I do, but it can be done. So we know clearly that that's part of the equation.

Starting point is 00:41:32 So it's a building block and it can be an energy source. Not a very efficient one, but it's still an energy source. There's two dimensions. Fat. When we say fat, we're talking essential fat. Let's not talk about, you know, margarine and things like, you know, man-made fats. Let's keep that out of the conversation. An essential fat is a very stable energy source, but also has a lot of healing qualities depending on what fat you're using.

Starting point is 00:41:57 And so, again, two dimensions. Now we go to the good old carbohydrate, okay? It is an energy source. Very fast. It can be like a really fast, you know, release energy source and it's very powerful, but it only represents energy. There's no healing. There's no building with a carbohydrate. Now we'll fill the muscle out. Yes. Will the muscle have more energy because you chalked it full? but it doesn't doesn't help with the rebuilding process so i don't really give a shit if my muscles are not like right now it is funny as it sounds i would be considered depleted but i live my life depleted you know if i went and ate you know say i ate a cup of rice with five or six meals, I would fill out. I should probably take more than that. But the bottom line is I could use a carbohydrate to fill my muscle, right? And that's something

Starting point is 00:42:52 that the carbohydrate can be used for. It's a great energy source, quick release energy source, but there's no building. So that being said, to answer the question is, you know, when it comes down to getting strong it's really nuts it you could be tired but you're not really going to be stronger from the carbohydrate that makes sense you know so it's it's a very misunderstood you know it's a very misunderstood concept in terms of ideal people i'm i'm not strong without the carbohydrate well if your diet is done properly you'll actually have great energy without the carbohydrate. And then you put the carbohydrate in, and it's like a turbocharger, you know?

Starting point is 00:43:31 What about the pump? You know, some people are like, I can't get a pump without the carbs. Well, so people hire me to coach them. So, okay, I want to gain 20 pounds of muscle. I want to lose 15 pounds of fat. Okay, that's the goal. So I create a program for them and usually what i do with people is i'll run it like a split test with carbohydrate and

Starting point is 00:43:50 what i'll do is i'll pull it out slowly and if they start to respond positively we'll keep it out we'll bring it back in periodically but usually energy will stable they'll feel great they'll be more clear but they're not getting a pump in the gym. So I'm not going to pump in the gym. I said, did you, let's review why you hired me. Did you hire me to get a pump in the gym or did you hire me to build that muscle and tear off the body fat? Well, not having a pump in the gym is you could call it a negative side effect of this process, but okay.

Starting point is 00:44:23 In a month, look with the progress we've made. So, you know, if you just hire me to give you a pump at the gym, it's a real easy job. You know, you didn't need to hire me to do that. And then they start to realize, okay, this is kind of part of the, you know, you, you, you want to make a goddamn omelet. You're gonna have to break some eggs. Let's be honest here.

Starting point is 00:44:42 You know, man, first off, I fucking love what you're saying. Okay, so I found that we've kind of landed on that same thing. Like back in the day, years ago, I would give myself the excuse that if I want to be able to perform, I need to have all my carbohydrates. So I'd be eating 300, 400, sometimes 450 to 500 grams of carbs. Oh, shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To fuel myself for those workouts, right? But when I took, when I like started going low carb and then some days no carb, I found

Starting point is 00:45:11 that I was actually having still really good workouts. And the one thing that actually made a big shift for me was just adding electrolytes in, you know what I mean? And like sodium, potassium, magnesium. So I don't cramp up and I still feel good. Now there are days where I don't have any carbs, but the days where I feel a little bit lethargic, I can get away with just maybe having 50 grams of carbs and I feel great. I think people think that they need so they,

Starting point is 00:45:33 they eat too many carbs to fuel, even though they don't need that much. And, and here's the thing is what, what, you know, you hear, you know,

Starting point is 00:45:41 people that are really into nutrition talk more like you hear Stan talk about all the time. Micronutrient values is like another layer of food that people just don't get. And so here's the deal. Put it plain. If your diet is micronutrient, you're not deficient. If you have what your body needs, the odds are you're going to feel fucking great without the carbohydrate. Yeah. Then you can bring the carbohydrate in it's like a yep you know it's like you got this it's like okay you you want

Starting point is 00:46:11 to kick ass for the day you take that 50 grams look out the carbohydrate is like a crutch to most people here's a an example i help people understand so you got two twin brothers mark and myself an example i help people understand so you got two twin brothers mark and myself handsome twins that's it so we basically we were both fat boys you know shit so so we're playing basketball right we're twins identical twins we both go up for the same ball we come down we both twist our right ankle somehow identically. We go to the hospital. Doc says, Hey, you're not broken, but you got a bad sprain. You got a bottle of pills for you, bottle of pills for you, the painkillers. So the smart one, we'll call that Mark, takes the pills as prescribed. The doctor says, Hey, you're going to take these until the pain

Starting point is 00:47:01 goes away. You know, when you wake up, if it doesn't hurt, don't take the pill. So he listens. He takes about five or six of the 60 that the doctor gives us. Well, the other side of the fence, myself, the dumb one, I keep taking that goddamn pill. Well, all of a sudden, there's no more pills. Well, the doctor says, you're healed. You don't need more pills. Well, I don't feel normal without the pill. The pill has become a crutch. I need the cr don't feel normal with the pill the pill is become the pill has become a crutch

Starting point is 00:47:27 i need the crutch to feel normal so a person that can't function without the carbohydrate in most cases it's become dependent and if the diet is done properly with the micros you don't have a dependency and then at that that point, when you bring it back in, it's like a goddamn jackhammer. Power Project family, how's it going? Now, we've talked about blood work and getting your labs done on this podcast with many different guests,

Starting point is 00:47:53 as that's super important for understanding what's going on underneath the hood. That's why we've been partnered with Merrick Health for such a long time now, owned by Derek from More Plates, More Dates. With Merrick Health, you can get yourself the Power Project panel, or you can select any specific labs you want to get.

Starting point is 00:48:07 And after you get that done, you'll be able to work with one of Merrick's patient care coordinators where they'll help you understand what type of nutritional, lifestyle, hormonal, or other type of interventions you can utilize to help fix whatever might be going on underneath the hood. Merrick is your one-stop shop to make sure that everything is going well underneath the hood. Andrew, how can they get their blood work done? Yes, we have two options for you guys. Head over to merrickhealth.com slash power project. That's M-A-R-R-E-K health.com slash power project. There you guys will see the power project panel that Nsema was just talking about. And at checkout, enter promo code power project to save $101 off of that panel. Now, if you want to custom select your own panel, you guys can use promo code power project 10 to save 10% off all labs

Starting point is 00:48:50 Again, that's at Merrick health comm slash power project links to them down in the description as well as the podcast show notes You know, it's it's like it's a whole different it just presents a whole different possibility. Yeah, you know, it's kind of funny I look at carbs like a supplement. Right. Yeah. That's the way it should be. You know? The difference is you're not paying 10 times what they're worth and they're not ground

Starting point is 00:49:13 up and colored and flavored. So, yeah. So, I totally, you know, if your diet's on point, the carbohydrate should be a very powerful tool. I know, you know, some people are listening right now and they're like, this isn't Dr. Landon Norton talking or their favorite nutrition person that they listen to. But I just want to make it clear that there's a lot of truth to what you said, what you're saying. I know that you're also just sharing your own experience and experiences that you've helped other people with, but there's a lot of evidence, a lot of proof, a lot of research, however you want to say it, that the human body does not necessarily, quote unquote, need dietary carbohydrates because we can make them out of protein if necessary. We do need it for something.

Starting point is 00:50:02 And fat is a great energy source as well. And to what you're saying, 100%, I mean, keep in mind, all of what I've kind of discussed here is 100%. This is an organic methodology that I've built myself. Now, I didn't care what research said. I didn't care it was proven. I didn't care what was not proven. I just knew it worked for me. And as I continued down my path,

Starting point is 00:50:24 the research started to support what I've been doing. So again, that's, it's one of those things. I mean, and I kind of live my life this way, you know, if you want to get somewhere, if you're following somebody, you're only going to get as far as he's going. So you got to get out to the left, get out to the right, get in your own space. And then what's in front of you is truly up to you. You're not running into somebody that, that you could be passing up and you're not, you're not being influenced by what he's doing. You're being influenced on what you see and you feel works for you. And that right there,

Starting point is 00:50:55 that is deep water. That is me. That is how I coach. That's how I live my life. Sometimes, you know, it'll be wrong. I mean, it gets me into a bind sometimes because I love to try shit. I mean, if I walk into a situation and I see a really nice-looking pool of water, you know, sometimes I won't actually verify that it's water before I run head steam and dive in that sub-bitch. And I'll hit the bottom. There's not a drop of water. I'll knock my teeth out. Like, son of a bitch, that didn't work. But, you know, I'll stand up, I'll put my teeth in my

Starting point is 00:51:28 pocket. I'll climb out of the goddamn pool and I'll look for another one hoping there's water the next time. And really what it comes down to it, that kind of that fearless trial and error is what has allowed me to do what I do. One gram of protein per pound of body weight. You know, I honestly, when it comes down to there was when I was younger, I really subscribed to some of this stuff. And I realized, okay, I'm, I'm doing what is what the common, you know, what the status quo is, and I'm still hungry. Well, maybe I wasn't hungry, but I wanted to eat. So that's why I just kept eating. I was overeating well you know i i do sometimes but if you do the calculations i'm way over two right well again going back to the beginning kept me from being fat and i was getting very

Starting point is 00:52:18 strong in the process so it's so you're near 600 grams of protein a day? No, more than that. You know, I'm doing, you think like this. When I say, when I talk about what I'm eating, this is cooked. So we're talking six, seven pounds of flesh a day. Now convert that into uncooked. I mean, you lose about 30% when you cook something. Yeah. So you do the math on that. That's a shitload of flesh you know how do you eat

Starting point is 00:52:47 that much like like no yeah like yeah especially if it's a lean source yeah and do you do you do you have meals right here like ready or something yeah nice well see here's the thing when she cooks when she cooks it's like she's cooking like whatever. 20 pounds of whatever we're cooking is being cooked. You don't pull out. First off, you don't buy a container of flesh if it's a couple of pounds. It's got to be a minimum of a 10-pound bag or there's no reason to buy it. I love it.

Starting point is 00:53:19 You know? I fucking love it. It's great. It's like the Flintstones. I'm calling a spade a spade here. Spare rib. But again, the whole thing about it is when you start to recognize, it's really what you think about it. It's like a conversation. I say something.

Starting point is 00:53:36 Based on what I say, there's a response. Based on the response, I say something again. Now, picture that person or that thing that I'm talking to is the body. So if I'm eating all this protein and I'm recognizing there's a benefit, then I'm getting the response I'm looking for. Yeah. So of course, you know, when it comes down to, as I get older, we were talking earlier about how it's harder for me to keep weight on. I've actually started to do a lot more egg whites because it's very easy to eat and digest.

Starting point is 00:54:05 Cooked egg whites probably, right? Or are they to do a lot more egg whites because it's very easy to eat and digest. Cooked egg whites probably, right? Or not. Not a lot. I mean, I cook them. I drink them. Okay. I take a bath in them. Use lotion.

Starting point is 00:54:15 I like that. I do. I put an IV with them. Does this amount of protein bother your stomach? Well, I'm going gonna let my wife kind of answer that question if i drink so what i'd like to do is i like to so i got these you know three cup shakers the big boys yeah and uh i like to fill one of those up i mean god knows if you want to hear the recipe so we're talking the egg whites we got probably 10 splendas got some peanut butter

Starting point is 00:54:41 powder my favorite is crushed flax seeds. And anything that I can do, I mean, I like, you know, that's the fat kid talking. That's like what I drink before bed. The problem is, I'm going to say probably about four or five hours after I drink that. So probably about halfway to the night, I start, she calls it machine guns. I'm just blowing. And it's like i'm just blowing and it's like it's funny because it's really weird i i if it's really bad i can feel myself getting tense right and so i'll kind of wake up and i'll start to push and i'm like it won't come i'm like it's kind of those ones where you're afraid to push all the way because because you're thinking god i'm in bed

Starting point is 00:55:23 right now if i'm if this goes wrong i need to be sitting on the toilet you know so so i'll i'll tense it i'll give it a push but you know give it a push and you let off it goes back you don't really know what the next little bit's gonna feel like because you got a key so you push you tense the abs you feel giving that a little push and you kind of wait okay Okay, you got to go one more time So you keep the tent city that you've got to keep your stomach tight in a chamber Yes, but then sometimes it disappears then once it starts to go because these are the ones that are like kind of high-pitched and loud So you don't know So you don't know if they're gonna be just air only Yeah

Starting point is 00:56:00 And so you got to be right you got it You're tensed up so you can read it back out real quick if you need to flex wheeler when you were uh, When you were prepping for those shows like what did your food look like? you know what Eating kind of high to moderate carbs high protein low fat. What were you doing? No, um What I didn't understand is my kidneys was filming due to FSGS and the reason why I had to have a kidney transplant later on. But it was just getting harder and harder to reach my condition as I got older.

Starting point is 00:56:36 So I had to start taking drastic measures and going anywhere from one to two and even sometimes a little bit over three months, zero carbs. And at that time, I would just I would eat 88 ounces of filet mignon a day would be my meals, you know. So anywhere from seven to eight meals of 12 ounces of filet mignon would be my my meal along with just drinking Crystal Light. I did not know that you uh were such a low cart like you can would compete that way without carbs yeah so i would go all the way up and i um i don't really know if it's card sensitive i think if you train your body it becomes normal you know just like you know like stan coming from cold weather places now, he loves it here. You know, I come from a hot area, so there's no way in the world I would love to be in a cold area.

Starting point is 00:57:31 But if I live there long enough, you adapt, right? So I just had to learn to adapt to that because it was the only way I could achieve great condition and being a lot bigger. But no, so my carb would consist of maybe one or two meals going into the show. And sometimes my carb up would be like two spoonfuls of oatmeal. And I would literally light up like a candle. So it's kind of like if there's a fire going on in a room and there's a deficit of air, you know, so hence me just eating protein and no carbs. As soon as you open a door, the fire just it takes on a different life. It explodes. So, you know, what I found after going so long on zero carbs, all it took is just very little for my body to explode.

Starting point is 00:58:26 I think Joel and Carl right now have a full erection, by the way, because what you're speaking about is stuff that these guys are not only have they practiced a lot of the same things you're mentioning, but they also have studied it quite a bit. Joel, what have you kind of seen, you know, in people that, you know, switch to kind of lower carb diet for a period of time and then they bring the carbs back in? It's kind of my understanding that in some cases, the carbs can almost act as being more effective as long as that's not done for too long. If we go keto for too long or kick the carbs out for too long, when we bring the carbs back in, it can sometimes be problematic. What have you seen? I see a lot of our, what I've seen, right, people that are coming off certain dietologies,

Starting point is 00:59:15 like they did keto for three years or they did carnivore for a couple years, and their insulin sensitivity has really kind of gone out the window and they're having to retrain that back in. So I would use the analogy insulin sensitivity, it's somewhat like a muscle. If you're not training it, it withers with use or disuse. I think you're right in terms of there's a push-pull between if you do it for a while, you kind of go a little car, but actually the reverse effect actually primes insulin sensitivity. and then over the really long haul at least what i'm seeing a lot of is it um seems to in many cases um

Starting point is 00:59:50 wither and then you kind of have to train it back in how about for you carl yeah i'll go ahead i would just say it's not for everyone you know um some people just define the laws of of you know, everything that we learned or we taught. So I remember that had Ronnie try to go zero carbs. And I remember Ronnie telling me that he passed out. He went hypoglycemic and and almost had to go to the hospital. And he was actually having three times the amount of rice I was having. And he still went hypoglycemic.

Starting point is 01:00:24 So it's just everybody's just so different you know you just can't you can't build a platform for anyone just because it worked for somebody else it has to be you know specific and everybody has to be able to tolerate that louise villasenor the og for fat loss and body composition is PSMF, protein spring modified fast. It's even better than the traditional fasting because when you fast, and we have been sort of talking about this, yeah, you can preserve muscle to a point, but you will still lose muscle. That's a given. People say that, no, you will not lose muscle. Yeah, you will lose muscle, especially after 36 hours. There are some studies that actually show that nitrogen tracing, I don't really recall. Tyler

Starting point is 01:01:10 has more information on that. I can check it out later and send you the studies. But the thing is that after 36 hours, because your body does need the amino acids for, again, hormones, enzymes, et cetera, it's going to take in from your muscles, right? So that's why the PSMF approach was not really developed by bodybuilders. It's actually a clinical approach to preserve as much lean mass as possible, especially during clinically or necessary conditions. You have a patient that's bedridden, the loss of lean mass is super dangerous again because you need amino acids. So what it does in the sense of body recomposition or what you do is go super high on protein, around three kilos or three pounds, yeah, about three grams per kilo you weight. Probably it's

Starting point is 01:02:07 grams per kilo you weight, probably it's like normally where you end up, you stick to only green vegetables, which in the end for most people, this would be in between 30 to 40 grams per day. And then you go basically as low as you can in fats. But when I say as low as you can, you're basically going zero to 10 grams of fats. And then these fats come from mostly omega-3 fats. So basically the actual protocol as, if I recall correctly, as written in the book by Lyle McDonald, he has a protein spring modified book. It's the fat that you get comes basically from fish oil. That's it and some vegetables to help you get filled. The issue that I see with people who try or attempt this diet is that they really don't

Starting point is 01:02:55 have good habits, right? So they think this is a crash diet, they think that in one week, they're going to be able to lose everything they wanted. And they also do it with shakes. If you do like we've been sort of mentioning that when you eat a lot of protein, you don't get hungry, right? Or it has an increased hemogenic effect. This only works when it's actual whole food protein. We talked to countless guests on the podcast about the importance of strong, functional feet. And most people's feet don't function the way they should because of years of wearing narrow toe box shoes that over time weaken the feet

Starting point is 01:03:30 and then actually don't allow the toes to function the way they should. Most shoes are casts and the toes don't move. That's why I've partnered with Paloova. Now, Paloovas are flat, wide, and have a five-finger design so that whenever you wear the shoes, you're now getting the benefit of toe space. And that space that's being created through your toes is going to allow your feet to begin to function the way they should, literally all day long. You can wear these shoes while running.

Starting point is 01:03:54 You can wear the shoes in the gym. You can wear the shoes while relaxing. Anywhere you want, you can wear Paloovas while getting the benefit of toe space. Andrew, how can they get it? Yes, that's over at paluva.com slash power project. That's P-E-L-U-V-A.com slash power project. And at checkout, enter promo code power project 15 to save 15% off your order. Again, paluva.com slash power project links down in the description,

Starting point is 01:04:18 as well as the podcast show notes below. If you only feed someone shakes, you're going to get extremely hungry because it's digested super fast. It has a higher insulin spike than just food, et cetera. So it makes the diet miserable. And then you also don't lose fat very rapidly. Even though you may burn a lot of fat, of your own body fat, there are some people that do retain a lot of water. So maybe you don't see the big change in fat loss in one week. It only occurs after the third or fourth week, depending on if you can actually endure the diet because of the famous whoosh effect, right? And this is something that I've seen anecdotally in people that do it. What I suggest instead is, okay, you know the basics of the diet. Why don't you implement one or two days per week,

Starting point is 01:05:08 sandwiched in between your normal diet or what you're eating? So let's say that you have a very busy day. Instead of just fasting, dry fasting like some people do, maybe just do a PSMF fast. Maybe like eat a big salad, some grilled chicken, which is super low in fat. Aim for, again, it's going to be a lot of protein, because if you're going to be doing it for one or two days, maybe you don't need to go as high as three grams per kilo. Maybe you could just go two. And that's enough to pretty much lower your calories for the day in a very big margin, which in the end,

Starting point is 01:05:48 over the week, and if you stayed on the same calories or same foods that you were eating, it's going to help you shed fat faster without actually feeling like you're in a diet. Because if you actually go and review and count the calories, you can easily stay at 800 calories in one day like this. Imagine probably eating 200 grams of protein, just for reference. Anthony Chaffee. You were talking about feeling sort of crappy when you drop the carbs and things like that.

Starting point is 01:06:19 Yeah, transitioning to pure carnivore. Yeah, so you can get a period of fat adaptation um not everyone gets it i didn't i didn't really experience it myself but it is it is definitely something a known phenomenon um professor tim noakes uh out of south africa really bright guy he was like one of these big exercise physiologists guys for like 30 years he was all about you need to eat carbs for high performance uh training you need to eat carbs to burn carbs. He was that guy. Broke numerous books on it, everything like that. And then like, you know, what, 10 years ago or something like that, he just realized, he's like, I got it wrong. And so he says, I feel like

Starting point is 01:06:55 I've been lying to people for the last 30 years. And so he's done a lot of research on this and looking at training, high performanceperformance training, he found that you can get the same output whether you're on carbs or off carbs because obviously you do make carbohydrates, you make glycogen when you're not eating it, when you're not taking it in. And so he had actually, it was a pretty cool study, it was a randomized controlled trial. We had two groups and one would get fat adapted and they actually gave him 42 days to get fat adapted,

Starting point is 01:07:25 but they found that in their other studies, it actually maxed out about three weeks, generally two to three weeks. But they found that no one took longer than three weeks to get fat adapted. So once they were all fat adapted, then they put them on the treadmill, give them these exercise tests and things like that. And they found that both groups could put out the same amount of effort. They were able to work out just as hard. And then they switched groups.

Starting point is 01:07:51 So the group that were eating carbs were now not eating carbs and vice versa. And they gave them another 42 days, checked it. Output performance was exactly the same. And so that was interesting. So some people say, well, I need the carbs to get a better workout to be able to push myself. And in fact, these studies show that you don't. I've certainly noticed that in my own performance. I felt, you know, fantastic being able to do this. The advantage of going without carbs is that you will continually make carbohydrates, you'll make blood sugar and glycogen and ketones,

Starting point is 01:08:27 and you'll constantly be replenishing these things. So you're tapping into your fat stores as opposed to just your glycogen stores from carbo-loading. And you'll run out of glycogen in your liver and your muscles in about two hours of very heavy training, which not everyone gets to, right? So it's not necessarily affecting everyone. But when you're going on your fat,

Starting point is 01:08:50 we've all got weeks of energy available. So you can really go, you can put the same output, but you can just keep going. And so that I think is a big advantage. I've heard you mentioned something about soreness for you. Like you were talking about how you, I think it was actually you were talking about, I don't know if it was caffeine or if it was Coffee.

Starting point is 01:09:12 It was coffee. There was a few things that you mentioned, but you mentioned like you could just continue working out and not get sore. What happened? Do you know what happened to you there? Because that was really interesting. Yeah, I think it's multifactorial. I've noticed it just even when I was in that keto bit, when I was still eating vegetables and a little bit of meat, I just wasn't getting sore. And I was like, this is really weird. And then I have a bit of carbs or whatever would get sore.

Starting point is 01:09:44 One reason is that being in ketosis and just having higher levels of ketones actually reduces inflammation. Just having higher ketones does that. But I think there's also, as part of these defense chemicals that plants have as a deterrent, they're going to cause more inflammation,

Starting point is 01:10:00 cause more pain and discomfort. So an animal eats that and all of a sudden they're feeling achy and sore and gross. They're like, okay, well, I'm not eating that again. And so I think that's the plant's way of telling you to back off. Don't eat me. I'll hurt you if you do.

Starting point is 01:10:12 And so I noticed that and I was able to, well, how I tested it was I did a big leg workout. I was like, I'm just not sore after this. I was like, I should though because I just got back from Bangladesh. I hadn't been working out. This was my first big leg day. And I was like, I'm just not sore after this. I was like, I should though, because I just got back from Bangladesh. I hadn't been working out. This is my first big leg day. And I really actually overdid it. I probably did, you know, a bigger leg session than I should have given that I hadn't worked out in so long and I just wasn't sore. And I was like, okay, well, you know, I didn't walk out of there just jello leg, just like, you know, like a baby deer, just sort of stumbling out of there. And so I was like, okay, well, maybe I just didn't,

Starting point is 01:10:44 didn't push myself as not as much, but you know, I did 12 sets. And so I was like, okay, well, maybe I just didn't push myself as much. But I did 12 sets to failure. And so normally that would be a good workout. Yeah. And so I was like, all right, next leg day, a few days later, I was like, well, I'll just do that same 12 sets to failure, and then I'll just do squats, and I'll just keep doing squats

Starting point is 01:11:06 until I run out of gas. And I ended up doing those 12 sets, and then I ended up doing another 20 sets of squats. And given enough break, I was giving myself decent rest, like four or five minutes between sets, I could do the same reps every single set. And I was just listening to a book on tape,

Starting point is 01:11:24 and I was just sitting there and all of a sudden I realized, I'm like, okay, I've done like 32 sets of stuff. And I was like, all right, well, and I realized I was like, my legs aren't that bad. On my first set of those squats, I did 15 reps to failure. And then the last set I did 13.

Starting point is 01:11:43 So it really wasn't much of a I was taking big rests I was taking a full rest until I was fully rested but I found that if I did that I could just keep going I was like okay

Starting point is 01:11:53 I can probably keep doing this the rest of the night but I was like I've been here for four hours and I got shit to do so I'll get out of here and also I was a bit worried because I've done

Starting point is 01:12:01 I've way overdone like days before just been crippled for weeks and and so I was a bit worried because I've done, I've way overdone like days before, just been crippled for weeks. And so I was like, I thought that's, that's might be exactly what was gonna happen. And I had a friend of mine and they called me and they were like, oh, hey,

Starting point is 01:12:15 do you wanna go hiking up this mountain tomorrow? I was like, it's a big three hour hike, it's straight up, it's awful. And I was like, easy. You know, I may have just done something very stupid here. Like to see how I feel in the morning. I may not be walking for the next month. Woke up the next morning, I was like, easy. You know, I may have just done something very stupid here. I like to see how I feel in the morning. I may not be walking for the next month. Woke up the next morning, I was fine.

Starting point is 01:12:30 I had no soreness. I was going up the stairs and I was just like, didn't feel anything. Took two at a time. And I was just like, okay, yeah, I can feel that, you know, my hamstrings are, you know, there's something going on there that, you know, I'm putting in some work. I was like, all right, let's go hiking. Felt great on the hike. And I was like, right, time to go to rugby.

Starting point is 01:12:44 And so I went to rugby that night, trained with Seattle Seawolves, who were just their first preseason. Well, no, that was just into the season there in the first inaugural year of the Major League Rugby. And I was like, all right, let's really push myself, really see how hard I can go.

Starting point is 01:13:00 I was just, you know, pushed myself maximally the whole time. Felt great. Hadn't run in months. And the next day still wasn't sore. I was like, this is crazy. And two days after that, I, um, still wasn't sore, but you know, my hamstrings were just like, okay, yeah, you should probably let us rest here. You could keep doing this, but eventually you're going to tear something. That was sort of the impression I got. And I met a friend of mine for coffee. I was like, all right, well. And I met a friend of mine for coffee.

Starting point is 01:13:26 I was like, all right, well, it's been a few weeks since I've had coffee or anything like that. Let's see what I can do. Can I have coffee on this carnivore sort of thing? What does that do to me? I had one cup of black coffee. And within 20 minutes, my back and my hammies and my legs were getting stiff and sore. I was like, oh, what is happening?

Starting point is 01:13:42 I could feel it in real time getting worse. Ended up being sore for two days after that. And so I was like, right, no coffee. But I found that taking caffeine pills didn't do that. You know? So there was something in the coffee and there's 150,000 other chemicals in coffee besides the caffeine. And so obviously something else was in there that, that was, it was causing that. And so that's why i just like okay not doing that has anything in your mind potentially changed about the use of carbs or eating or anything around carbohydrates i think a lot of things have changed for me about eating in general um my main shift was to was just a protein focusing on eating a lot of protein. And I've had that, you know,

Starting point is 01:14:25 I've been doing that for a while since I found out about kind of the one gram per pound of body weight type stuff. But in terms of like body weight management and stuff, it was important for me to distance myself from carbohydrates, not because there was anything wrong with carbohydrates. I just had a shitty interpretation of carbohydrates.

Starting point is 01:14:45 My version of carbohydrates, and even now when i say carbs i'm thinking pizza ice cream donuts yeah yeah i'm thinking of all that stuff and lane norton um pointed this out and he said there's more fat calories in the stuff that you're thinking about than there are carbohydrate calories the calories for fat are it's 15 times nine so there would be more fat calories in there proving proving the point yes i could make this fit my macros so uh for me i i actually wasn't a person that thought that i couldn't eat carbs i wasn't i wasn't in that category i wasn't like I got bad genetics I don't handle carbs very well I was I never thought that um I just thought that um I thought that I needed to get myself to

Starting point is 01:15:34 a certain like body fat percentage level I guess to be able to have more wiggle room with carbohydrates which I still kind of think is true I don't necessarily just I don't disagree with that but at this point I mean my body fat levels are great so I don't. I don't necessarily disagree with that. I get what you're saying. But at this point, I mean, my body fat levels are great, so I don't have a worry with even just carbohydrates. But anyway, my whole thing nowadays is to just fuel myself so that the workouts feel really good. I want good performance with my workouts. If I don't feel like working out on a particular particular day I don't look at that necessarily as a motivation

Starting point is 01:16:09 problem my question is did you eat enough yesterday what was yesterday's workout like if you don't feel like lifting like how much running have you been doing in the last four or five days okay well you ran fucking 20 miles of the day maybe that's why I don't feel like lifting um what's the fuel like what's the sleep like so that's where i usually look and that's where i'll say okay let me let me up the carbohydrates uh a bit but nowadays i eat a lot of fruit um i eat rice i eat potatoes um i'll eat dark chocolate i'll have nuts here and there but i still i for me i still need to like pay attention to the types of foods that i eat because the food the food choices still can

Starting point is 01:16:56 lead me down to a path of me overeating and at this point it's not necessarily about body composition composition but it's about my own body weight. Like for April, I would like to weigh probably between 210, 215 for the race. And right now I'm around 225 most mornings. So I still have, we'll see where I end up. 215 would be, between 215 and 220 would even be fine. Because I don't need to lose like a ton of weight anytime rapidly but just the sheer body weight that you're lugging around during these

Starting point is 01:17:32 runs can be impactful so that's what I'm kind of looking to do but yeah I have changed the way that I think about food in general again I've said this many times on the show but I think this is really useful for people look at carbohydrates and fats as energy sources for the body and look at protein as a building block of the body i would go as far as to say that protein is free fiber is free fruit is free vegetables are free what i mean by free eat as much of them as you want like eat a crazy amount of those things uh if you're new to dieting and you've never tried it before don't even bother to really mess around with fasting just eat a ton of what i just said yeah for maybe a week or two like be a

Starting point is 01:18:16 little patient with it over time you're gonna probably find yourself uh eating less and uh starting to lose some weight dude what, what was your body like? How much did you weigh during your bodybuilding show? Because you were like 220, right? On stage. But obviously your body composition was different. You might have been holding a bit more muscle, but you were 220 on stage, right? I think the day of the show,

Starting point is 01:18:37 because of like the carb up and everything, I think I was like 230. So you might be, well, you said 215 or 220, but you might be down like 210 for the boston marathon that's that's wild that is wild i don't think i've ever had this uh blow of actual body fat on my body before oh just holding and chilling right yeah i think again during the bodybuilding show my body fat percentage may have been better because I may have had a little bit more muscle mm-hmm but I don't think I've ever had this low because I can kind of because like because I was so big before I have a little bit of loose skin in certain spots

Starting point is 01:19:16 and I never really saw that before I think again the bodybuilding show I think I held on to enough muscle to where that was a little less noticeable. Not that it's noticeable or bugs me at all. It's just something I observed. But I think I have less body fat on me now than I ever have before.

Mark Bell's Power Project - Are Carbs Necessary for Optimum Performance? Experts Weigh In - SUPER CUT

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.