Morbid - Episode 257: The Tragic Story of Barbara Daly Baekeland

Episode Date: August 23, 2021

Ash brings us the story of Barbara Daly Baekeland, a New York socialite who ended up being murdered by her son Anthony “Tony” Baekeland. Barbara had a long history of mental illness and eventually her son did as well, some argue Tony’s mental illness began when his mother tried to “cure him of his homosexuality” by taking him to bed herself. This was definitely a hard one to get through, but is a fascinating case for sure. As always, thank you to our sponsors: HelloFresh: Get up to fourteen free meals—including free shipping!—when you use code morbid14 at HelloFresh.com/morbid14 The Jordan Harbinger Show: You can’t go wrong with adding The Jordan Harbinger Show to your rotation.  It’s incredibly interesting, there’s never a dull show. Search for The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts! Curology: You can start your Curology journey just like I did with a free 30-day trial at Curology.com/MORBID Aurate: For 15% off your first Aurate purchase, go to AurateNewYork.com/morbid15 and use promo code morbid15 Monday.com: To start your free 14-day trial go to monday.com/podcast See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hey, weirdos, I'm Elena. I am Ash. And this right here is morbid pre-hericane morbid. Guys, we're about to get an early hurricanely hurricane we never get hurricanes out here it's been 30 something years 30 years pretty much yeah so who knows what's about to happen new England doesn't know what to do here we know what to do with lots of snow we don't know what to do with anything else but I feel like everybody just took

the same like precautions that they do with snow it's like the milky ex the bread the milky ex the bread that's all we know what to do. We're like, charge up all your stuff. We got some eggs and milk and bread. Get a portable cha-ja. Just, there we go. We're good.

To me, to the other day, I was like, thanks, mom. She's like, make sure you're stocked up. I was like, get your groceries. Make sure you get them. At Instacart, thank you. That's right. Yeah.

But yeah, we don't know what to do. So it's going to be weird. We're going to get our two episodes out. It's been a little bit of a weird week. So we're going to get our two episodes. It's just like always a weird week, because we are who we are. Like we're weird, you're weird, you get it. They're always going to come out.

That's all we know. There, but man, no. We don't know when. Sorry. But we are definitely getting them out because we're gonna beat the, hopefully we're not gonna lose power, but I have a feeling we will.. Yeah, I don't like it at all. It stresses me out. It's like you can see in the silence with kids. Yeah, fuck that.

It's not fun to lose power because you're like, I don't know what you did. Pre-ipod. And I'm a fan. No, not actually. It's just a lot, but so we'll don't worry your episodes will be out, but, but let's see what happens. Let's go. Let's get this one.

Let's go in. Let's just see what happens. Let's go. Let's get this one. Let's just see what happens. I'm stressed All right, well This one was actually super duper highly requested like a few weeks ago For some reason like 42 people were like you need to do this case Is it this they're like any date that corresponds with that? No, just happened to happen I love when that happened. Well, I think I like everybody knows I love an old Hollywood case That's true you do.

This is not necessarily old Hollywood, but this woman has a Hollywood tie. She's like a socialite, so I think people are like, actually love that, do it. This is a perfect kind of thing for you. It is. We're gonna trigger warning this a little bit because this unfortunately does involve possible incest

and sexual abuse. So if you are going to be uncomfortable listening to that, which probably all of you are, but if you don't want to listen to that, then I will see you for a Lene's episode, I guess. I'm glad I brought my coffee. Yeah, you're welcome. Wow.

So we're gonna be talking today about Barbara. I think you say it, Bayclind. I looked it up and somebody said Bayecland. Somebody said Bayecland. I think it's Bayecland. I'm gonna go with Bayecland. Barbara Bayclind. That sounds right.

It does to me, it feels right. It just feels right coming out of my mouth. But before Barbara became a Bakeland, she was born Barbara Daley on September 28th, 1922, to parents Neenie and Frank Daley. The roaring 20s. The roaring 20s she came in with a bang. She grew up in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Hey! Which every source I saw was like, she grew up in Boston. And I was like, Cambridge is in Boston. Cambridge is in Boston. Cambridge is Cambridge. But hello, Barbara. Hi, Barbara. Happy to have you.

Yeah. Am I? No. No. I did not look into this case before I said any of this. So yeah, it's great. We'll see. We'll see.

We'll see if I evolve. You'll find out along the way. I'm feeling good. Well, Barbara's mother Nini, unfortunately, had her fair share of struggles when it came to mental health. She actually had a nervous breakdown just a couple years before giving birth to Barbara. Oh boy. So she was going through it. And Barbara's father also seemed to struggle with his mental health,

or I don't know if it was that or if his wife's struggle kind of just took a toll on him. Okay. Probably a mixture of both, I'm assuming. And when Barbara was 10 years old, Frank ended up killing himself. Oh. He went out into the closed garage and he turned on the family car.

So ultimately he died from the human relation. And people think the reason that he did it that way was so that it could still look like an accident. Oh wow. So then he was like taking care of Barbara and Neenie and they could get so much energy. And it sure could pay out. That'sout. Oh, that's really sad. It is really sad. But luckily they were left with enough money to kind of make ends meet and they actually Neenie

decided to use the money to move to New York City for a while and they actually lived in the Delmonico hotel. Oh, which is just like Fence Fence. That is fancy. Yeah, but I must have been good insurance payout. There you go. Now growing up, Barbara was considered one of New York's 10 most beautiful girls, which really helped her work her way to a modeling career. That'll do it. I also want to know like who decides?

I was gonna say that somebody just come to the door and be like, we're chosen you. Hey you. You're beautiful. You're real pretty. Only nine others, like, yeah. Wow. So how does that happen?

Is it a contest? Yeah, I doubt it. Is it like a pageant of some sort? I didn't see anything about a pageant there. We're just like, she's one of the 10 most beautiful girls. They literally just picked her up the street. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

It just happens, you know. Hey, we saw you coming out of the grocery store. You're real pretty. You're, I'd say you're prettier than a, you know, 90% of women in this place. Hey. Well, it also, it makes sense for Barbara because she was born on the Libra Virgo Cusp, which is known as the Cusp of Beauty.

Oh, isn't that? I didn't know that there was like, like I knew there were cusp's obviously in astrology, but I didn't know they were like cusp of beauty. Yeah, I had no idea that was a thing. So then I fell into a whole reading all about different cusp's and what they mean. I was born on the cusp of energy,

which makes a lot of sense. And I believe yours was like prosperity. So like, you've got to cut off to you, bitch. Hey, look at that. But that's not what this is about. So I didn't know about our cusp. It's not about our cusp. It's about Barbara's cusp of beauty.

And that's weird, though, that makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense. Like they line up. She's beauty. And it's funny, because she went on to model for Vogue and Harper's Bazaar. Wow, get it. So that cast of beauty just really nailing it for her.

Yeah. And then because she was modeling in one of the most prettiest girls there, you know, she started getting invites to like super exclusive parties where she'd hang out with like New York's top socialites at the time. Oh, she's just fancy. She was super fancy.

Like she just made her way on up there. Now while she was at one of those Oh, she's just fancy. She was super fancy. Like, she just made her way on up there. Now, while she was at one of those parties, she was like, from the real house, that's so funny because a Mortimer actually takes place in this. Oh, really? A Mortimer takes place. It takes place.

So Mortimer makes an appearance. And that's why I'm just saying thank you. They take place in here. They take place here. They've had one glass of coffee and usually on like three by this point in the day. And it was a mug, not even a glass. So she's really struggling.

I'm really just not okay. It was your coffee, I'm gonna blame you. But yeah, she was hanging with those socialites. She was tinsleying it up. And while she was at one of those parties, she was introduced to Dana Andrews. I don't know if you've heard of him. No, I had a neither, but apparently in the 40s he was a pretty big time deal.

Oh, okay. He was an actor. He had starring roles in Laura, the best days of our lives, and state fair. Oh, okay. I see you over there looking it up. You're not going to recognize a single one of his movies, because I just want to see him. Handsome dude. Okay. Handsome guy. I thought he said he had some dude. He had some dude. He had some dude. Handsome dude. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Look her up. She was beautiful. I'm not going to deny that. Um, there's a photo of him like holding a cigarette like just looking

at the camera. Like, like, remember in the 40s when they were like, these won't kill you. Yeah. They just look cool. These are just sex. Yeah. These will make your sex appeal at a thousand. Exactly. Well, Dana thought that Barbara's star potential was at a thousand and he invited her out to Hollywood with him thinking that she could do a screen test and he thought she had, like I said, star potential. She was gonna make it big. Because here she is holding a cigarette just like him. Looking sexy.

That's what makes star potential. That's all you needed in the 40s was a cigarette and like, curled hair. I was literally gonna say, and good hair. Good quaff. That's all you needed in the 40s was a cigarette and like curled hair. I was literally gonna say, and good hair. Good quaff. That's all you needed. Yeah, good roller set and a sig. Yeah.

You're on tollywood you go, be out. Be out here, you're gonna miss it. Let's get it. Yeah, but anyways. Screen test did not work out for our girl Barb's. Unfortunately, but you know, she was out in California doing the damn thing. And she met this girl called Cornelia Bakeland,

who was also known as Dickie Bakeland, which I thought is just like adorable. It's a cute nickname. Because Cornelia is such a pretty name. Yeah, it is. But she was the sister of this guy called Brooks Bakeland. And Cornelia thought Barbara would really hit it off with her brother, so she was like,

let me introduce you guys. She was like, there's so much alliteration here. It needs to happen. Brooks and Babs, let's get it. Brooks Babs was like, let me introduce you guys. She was like, there's so much alliteration here. It needs to happen. Brooks and Babs, let's get it. Brooks, Babs, Baceland. You should have a baby. But Brooks was actually training to be a pilot with the Royal Canadian Air Force.

Oh, okay. Just that. You know, very casual. Just living. And when they met Sparks, Flu, it was a Taylor Swift song. Oh, I love it. Barbara was beautiful. Brooks was handsome and like ridiculously wealthy.

And that's really all you need to build a good relationship, obviously. There you go, that's it. Looks and it. Barbara was beautiful, Brooks was handsome and like ridiculously wealthy and that's really all you need to build a good relationship obviously. There you go, that's it. Looks and money. Yep. And Brooks came from family money. His grandfather was Leo Bakeland who eventually just invented plastic. Oh, that little thing. Like plastic was already a thing, but it wasn't great. Have you heard of it? I've plastic? I don't know. You guys use it? Sometimes. Yeah. I've seen it in the store. Look at Google it.

You'll know. You might know. You might be like, oh, I've used that once. You might be a plastic. So you have the Mean Girls table. I mean, Google it on the thing that is made out of plastic. Wow. Weird.

Meta. I was literally just going to say that's so meta. Stop saying my words. Sorry. But yeah, so he invited Invented Bakelight plastic, which is also known as, are you ready? Polly oxybenzel, methylendgene, colon hydride. Killed it, killed it, I don't think I did. I lost in the middle there.

But basically, it was the first plastic made from synthetic materials, and it was called the material of 1,000 uses. Ooh. It was just like the world's first sustainable plastic. Yeah. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of Wondries Podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud.

In our newest series, we look at the Kids for Cash Scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers, and often for committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children and force a heated debate about punishment and

America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder App. What if you were trafficked into a cult over shot nine times, or fell in love with a vampire or went into a minor surgery and woke up one week later paralyzed. What would you do? I'm wit missile dine the creator of this is actually happening a podcast from Wondry that brings you extraordinary true stories of life changing events told by the people who lived them. From a young man that dooms his entire future with one choice, to a woman who survived a notorious serial killer, you'll hear their first-person account of how they overcame remarkable circumstances.

Each episode is an exploration of the human spirit and personal discovery. These haunting accounts sound like Hollywood movies, but I assure you, this is actually happening. Follow this is actually happening wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to ad free on the Amazon Music or Wunderly app. But because of his grandfather's invention, Brooks had what he called, fuck you money. Don't we all want that? Yes, that's the American dream. I'm just over here counting my fuck you money.

Fuck you, fuck you. Can you imagine? No, you just, that's the American dream. Ah, yeah, fuck you money. He was like, I have money, so I don't need to like listen to what anybody tells me what to do. I don't need to please anybody. This is my money, and I can say fuck you with it.

Fuck you money. I love it. I'm in here for it. But anyways, less on plastic and more on relationships. So even though they were both in love with each other, everything kind of started off with a lie because Brooks later claimed that the reason he married Barbara so quickly was because she told him that she was pregnant.

Spoiler alert. She was not. Eee. So he and Barbara got married in California, but then they went back to New York City to celebrate or to celebrate to settle. To settle. Maybe not celebrate, because you know, lies. Because you know, lies.

Because she lied. Because truth and consequences. That's why. Because lies and not response. But pretty early on, they started having problems probably because everything was based on a lie. They were constantly cheating on one another. Barbara was struggling mentally

and spending a ton of money on psychiatrist and therapy appointments, but she was never really getting to the bottom of what was truly going on because it was only like the mid 40s at that point. Well, that's sad. We hadn't really come a long way with mental health and everything like that. And the other thing that wasn't helping was that

because of Brooks's status, they were just constantly under a public scrutiny. Like everyone had an opinion about them. Everyone knew what was going on in their life. They're like top of the elite, New York social chain. So that must be so hard when you're struggling. Yeah, especially like with your mental health. I also just can't imagine even if you weren't

struggling with your mental health, I feel like it would cause you to. Oh yeah, for sure. Cause you're just like under the like eyeball of everybody. Oh yeah, whenever I'd like strangers have opinions about who you are as a person, it'll get to your mental health. Yeah, sure.

I'd definitely get you. I would definitely get you. I would definitely get you. I would definitely get you. Yeah, because it's weird when strangers have an opinion about health. Yeah, sure. I mean, anybody can agree that has ever had strangers having opinion about you. Yeah, because it's weird when strangers have an opinion about you. Yeah, they don't know you. No, yeah.

But they had a ton of rich and famous friends. And it was more just keeping up with the chanels and mortemers of society than keeping up with the Joneses. There was actually one night where they were out to dinner with some friends. And this is really fucked up. This made me really, really bad. Because if this happened to me, I would have like thrown a plate across the table. Ooh. Brooks was at the table with all their friends, and obviously Barbara was there.

And he just was like, I would sleep with the next girl who walked in the room no matter what she looked like for a million dollars. Um... Why offer up that information, sir? What, sir? Maybe you should be single, then, sir. I'm like really angry. Like, I would literally throw a plate at him. I'm not like one for violence, but, you know. No, but sometimes it's like,

There's a time and a place. You're getting a plate thrown at you. Like, what the fuck? I'd at the very least throw my pork chop at him. Yeah, I don't even like pork chop, so I throw them both at him. Yeah. Like, that's really fucked up.

Why would you just randomly say that? Like what? I feel like it's like one of those statements that like the whole table goes silent and they're like, ee, yikes. Was that a joke? You're very bad at joking. What? Isn't that your wife?

Wanna walk that one back? I don't know. How do you come back from that one? Aal Brooks. But to get back at him, Barbara decided that she was gonna just hop in the next car that came by. So, when they laughed, Wow, that's really ratcheting it up a notch. It really is, you know?

Just like one for one. Okay. She hopped in a car with four guys inside and it just like sped off. They were like, so instead of like tit for tat, it's like tit for red tat tat tat. I mean, it's the forties, red tat tat bitch. And she didn't come home until like much later that night. Oh my god. Put the fuck up.

It also like, guys, maybe you shouldn't be together. Yeah, I feel like that's your sign. Maybe you should just be single if you want to live that New York crazy life. Wow. Now, there were other occasions where they would violently fight about things such as what restaurant to go to. I mean, yeah. There was, I was reading one article, it's not okay. There was one article where he literally had her

in like a headlock and she was biting him. Oh my God. Because they couldn't decide what restaurant they wanted to go to. Like she wanted to go to one and he didn't want to go there. And that's what it escalated to. That's horrific. It's really sad.

And I feel like that goes to show you the struggles that she was having. Because it's like, how does it get from that, from such a small argument to that heightened. Oh yeah, there's clearly stuff under the surface here and things that people don't know. Honestly, it shows what a fucking asshole he is. Can you help her out

and sort of putting her in a fucking headlock? Jeez. Yeah. This whole thing is like, whoa. And I felt like reading throughout this whole thing, it was like Brooks was constantly being embarrassed by Barbara, but it's like he wasn't doing anything to help her.

Yeah. Now, they had some of the biggest stars around that time coming to their parties too. So like, these were people that you didn't want to be losing your shit in front of. Yeah, of course. Greta Garbo, Tennessee Williams, Sam Green, no big deal. Like big-ass stars.

Yeah, people you might know. Yeah, so everything was just like really diabolical in front of all these like socialites and there's like drugs happening at these parties. Of course. There's drink and tons of alcohol. It's just like not the situation you need to be in when you start. Yeah, no. It's not just that I'm like, you know, doing the Charleston or something.

No, I mean, maybe at the same time, but that's not it. Notting it. That even is more. Yeah, but wait, there's more. There's definitely more. And here's some more for you because things weren't really going any better in 1946. When Barbara found out she was pregnant for a reals this time, and even after she gave birth to their son, Anthony, they were still cheating on each other and still carrying out, like, long term affairs.

Cool. Yeah. So, for the next 10 years, Barbara and Brooks would travel all around the world with their little Tony boasting about what an amazing child he was. He was a prodigy, they said. He was good at painting and writing. He was God's gift to the world. And so he learned from a young age

that he could literally do nothing wrong and that there were no consequences in life. That's always good. Yeah, you know, you really want to set that up for your kid, yeah. That usually ends well. Yeah, right. Barbara and Brooks would show Tony off in front of their friends at parties,

but when it came down to actually being there for their son emotionally and actually taking care of him, that was like the nanny's job. Yeah, of course. They're like the nanny's job. Yeah, of course. They're like the boarding school's job. That's so sad. I read this article. It was written by a guy called David Leaf and he said, quote, as the family traveled from one chic destination to another in an endless round of idle summers, she and Brooks treated their son like a favorite toy

to be picked up and put down at whim. Oh, that's really sad. So sad. Oh, that like hurts my heart. Yeah, because that's a baby. To just like treat your child. Like, that's really sad, so sad. Oh, that hurts my heart. Yeah, because that's a baby. To just treat your child. Let me show you off real quick now, get away from me. And that's what it is. And especially at that time period and who they were hanging out with, it was like kids were just shiny things to show off

and not actual human beings. So you have to actually nurture and be there for love and teach wrong from right. Like kids are not convenient. No, like and that's that's what I think everybody had to learn for a long time. I don't think anyone has kids to like make their life easier. No, that definitely doesn't happen. And like it's like it always makes me angry when people are like wow this is like really

inconvenient for me. And it's like yeah no shit. That's what it's another human that you literally have to bring from like this little blob into an actual human. And you're solely responsible for it. And you are literally responsible for it. Of course, it's not gonna like fit into your life perfectly. Of course, it's not gonna be an easy job.

Like in your life around it. Like taking care of my cats is a difficult job. Sometimes and I'm like, ooh, but like I chose to have them. Exactly. And gotta take care of them. Yeah, I'll let it all up. They deserve it. They do. A little of the stuff.

They deserve it. They do. But friends of the family noticed odd behavior that didn't seem to be on Barbara and Brooks' radar coming from Tony. They saw him picking the legs off of crabs when they were at the beach. They noticed that he developed a stutter

and they wondered if it was like to earn more attention from his parents. Oh, this hurts my heart. It's really sad. One friend even remembered that Brooks boasted about Tony pulling a fly's wings off. Like he was doing a science experiment and not just like treating an animal cruelly.

I know it's like a fly, but it's still like, especially when you put it along with ripping the legs off of crabs and stuff. It's like, exactly. But he didn't seem concerned about like the cruelty aspect of that. He seemed to work in concerns like, oh, what a brilliant mind.

That's exactly what it was. Like, oh, my son, do we have the experiments? Yeah, and it's like, I don't know. It's like, not exactly. So now we're going to flash forward to 1967. The family's living in Switzerland. Tony's 21 by this time. And his parents find out that he is gay.

OK. They are less than pleased. Ugh, that hurts my heart. It's really fucked up. Tony had been experimenting with his sexuality for a long time. Um, while he was at a boy's boarding school, that's when he did a lot of experimenting. And he actually told a psychologist that it started when he was eight years old, and that's something that happened to him at school. And that's when he started like years old and that's something that happened to him at school. And that's when he started exploring his sexuality. Oh wow.

It's like at eight years old. And something happened. Yeah. He said because of an experience he had at boarding school at eight years old. So it's like, you wonder what that means. Yeah. You kind of have to read into that a little bit.

Yeah, it sounds ominous. It does. Now, Brooks seemed to have known for a while, but Barbara literally could not handle the news. She almost fell apart. Now at the time Tony was dating this guy from Australia who he had met in Morocco, like what a life. Just, you know, I met this guy.

And Morocco. Just living. Oh, it was just in Morocco. Yeah, I just met my man's in Morocco. Now this man's was Jake Cooper. Jake was a really seedy dude, really shitty guy. He was said to have been bringing Tony down a really bad path. He introduced him to a ton of drugs. They like did LSD regularly together, which when you're doing that regularly, it's like not awesome. You know, like not very casual, not

great for your psyche. No. They also were doing Bella Donna together. Oh, okay, Charlie Manson. Yeah, yeah. That's literally what I thought of too. The first thing I thought of. So one of Barbara's friends called her and was like, yeah, Tony's involved with this guy and like, he's bringing him down a really bad path and I also think they're together.

So Barbara was devastated that her son was gay, which was so fucked up. That's so wild. So fucked up. That would even be on your. And I know it was like a different time socially and all that stuff, but it was never acceptable. It never, it's still fucked up.

And she was so upset that she decided they needed to leave immediately and move back to New York City. And she wanted to work on curing him of his gayness. Oh, curing him of his gayness. Like it's a fucking disease. I hate this. It's terrible.

Now, some people said that this is when Barbara and Tony's relationship really started to become incestuous. So I read this article that while they were crossing the border to get back into the United States, they, Tony didn't have the right passport so they had to spend a night in jail. And she said something to him along the lines of like, oh good, you're cuffed up with mummy

like just where you should be. Oh, which maybe wouldn't be super duper creepy if everything else hadn't happened. I was gonna say. Still, it's a weird thing to say. It's definitely a weird thing to say. Like saying mummy when he was like 21. I was gonna say 21 and being like, cuffed up with mummy.

Yeah, and he referred to her as mummy for like, for ebbs. Oh man, that's a lot. So Barbara allegedly, and this is really fucked up. So if you, again, I gave you a warning in the beginning, but here's another one. So give yourself a sec. Barbara allegedly told Brooks that she could cure Tony's

gayness again, huge yikes if she just took him to bed with her. Oh, I don't want to be anywhere near this. Like, I'm not that that's your, your son. That's not going to cure anybody of anything. That's your son. That's only going to make more problems for both of you. Oh, I'm upset. Yeah.

So Brooks was horrified and he told the story to his brother and law who then told his wife and then before you knew it, the story was just being passed around the elite circle and everybody knew that Barbara had said, Oh my God, I loved that this started from her own husband just like telling everybody at that point, they were having like, he was involved in like a crazy affair and he had already been and having that affair for a wicked long time.

And he, I think he was so out of it, but she would constantly say she was gonna kill herself if he left her. So I think he was feeling stuck. Like he didn't want to be responsible for that. This is just a very chaotic, messy situation. Exactly. So everybody's like talking about this,

but that was the last thing that Barbara can fight in and Brooks. That was a married couple because he was like, I can't stick around for this. And like, you better not do that because that's ridiculously fucked up. I can't. That's having your, like, the mother of or a more father of your child say something like that to you. Right. I had what do you even do? I just like come out and say it. I know we're involved in this and I'm like speechless. I don't even know what to say. Just to say it, like it's not a big deal.

I think this would fix it. If I just slept with our son. Yeah, I think that we made together that I'm the mother of. That will solve all the problems. And I know she was struggling mentally, but I'm just like, how did you see your brain go there? I know, that's the thing to keep, it's just like, I know there's mental illness here but I'm just like, how did you brain go there? I know, that's the thing to keep,

it's just like, I know there's mental illness here, so it's like, right, obviously we're not thinking logically or like at the real list of the situation, but it's like hearing that is shocking. Shocking, very shocking. Now, just to be clear, Brooks is not the hero of the story. No, he left Barbara and Tony for a girl named Sylvie Skira, who was actually one of Tony's friends to begin with.

They had met in Europe. Sylvie and Brooks had been having an affair for like a long time, and it was actually Barbara who introduced them to each other. What? Because she thought that Sylvie was Tony's girlfriend. Oh, man. Now Sylvie herself denies that she and Tony were ever together.

She was like, I knew that he was gay. He knew he was gay. Our relationship was strictly platonic. Yeah. But Tony seemed to remember it differently too later. And he had later, like said, that his father stole his girlfriend. Really?

Yes. Wow, this is messy as hell. This is the messiest. The messiest. It's like a real example of there always being three sides, sides to a story, yours, mine and the truth. But here we have Sylvie's Brooks's, Tony's, Barbara's, yours, mine and the truth.

So we've got seven. Yeah, you just keep searing it. It's like what? It's like excuse me. I'm shook. I keep looking at pictures of all these people. You keep mentioning it. I know, right?

I feel like trying to get the feel for it. They're all very beautiful. They are. I mean, this is very like, all these people you keep mentioning. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I know right. I left her, Barbara started taking like a creative writing class and she was allegedly writing a novel about a mother and son and their incestuous relationship with each other. Okay. And then Sylvie later alleged that the police found tapes in Barbara's house like cassette tapes where she was like, like recording, like talking about what she was going to be writing and she was talking about incestuous things. Oh. No, that's never been confirmed if those cassette tapes actually exist, but Sylvie said is gonna be writing and she was talking about incestuous things. Now that's never been confirmed if those cassette tapes actually exist,

but that's like Sylvie said that the police gave them to Brooks and said, destroy these because they're gonna ruin your family name. Because remember, this is a huge family name, like Leo invented the first sustainable plastic. Of course. So Barbara's an aerois, you know? And just this like focus on incest is like, yeah.

Can we move away from this? Right. It's very slow. It's very slow. It's like, it keeps bringing me there. Yeah. I keep getting brought there. It's a weird place to go.

Yeah. I was excited to get away from it as soon as this episode is over as interesting as it is. I'm like, okay, we're going to move on to somewhere. It's a place to hang out for a while. I think we're going to move on to somewhere haunted after this for me personally. But we gotta finish this. So one of the friends that Barbara made

in her creative writing class remembered that at first she thought that she was writing a fiction novel about the insides because you would think that. Yeah, like flowers in the attic. Correct. But then she went to Barbara and Tony shared apartment one day because Tony just constantly lived with Barbara, like for the rest of ever.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there was pictures that Barbara had taken of Tony and portraits and they were just like everywhere. And this woman was just like disturbed by the pictures. She said that they weren't the kind of pictures a typical mother would take of her son.

Okay, because I was gonna say I was like, all right, it's her son, like he loves her son. Now there is one picture, and it's not like sexually explicit or anything, but it's a brook, or excuse me, it's a Tony when he's younger and like a bathtub. I just saw that. It's a weird picture.

It's not like there's no like blatant nudity or anything like that. No. But it is definitely a picture that you'd be like, what? What, when was that take, like what was the context in which that was taken? And it's like posed, like it looks posed. You know what I mean?

It looks like a photo shoot. It literally does. Like it looks like a photo shoot that like a person, like a grown person would take. Now, for another grown person, you know, a magazine, some magazine, you know, like Playboy to be honest. Yeah, well not even.

It's because it's not. It's like, I feel like it's like suggestive though. But it's got like a fashion look to it. It does. It has like a vogue look to it. Like I could see like, you know, I'm trying to say, I'm so bad at actresses. I'm like, I'm like,- A caradel of Ian.

Yeah, I could see, or like Jennifer Lawrence. I can see her like in this, this kind of photo shoot. And I think, I think you're right actually. I think it's only suggestive knowing what I know now. Yeah, because I was gonna say it doesn't show like a playboy. Yeah, no, that was the wrong thing to say. Kind of thing to me. And it shouts like, why fashion?

What's happening here? Yeah, like that's all I'm just like- But if you didn't know, you'd be like, oh, like fashion. And it's definitely not a photo I would like display of my child. No, no. It's just a little bit weird.

Yeah. But over the years, a lot of Barbara and Tony's visitors felt the same as this woman. Yeah. They were like, yeah, these pictures were weird. Because no matter where they were, because they had various apartments in New York, London, and other parts of Europe, because Barbara got a monthly allowance from Brooks since he had left.

But no matter where they were, there were huge portraits and photos of Tony all over the apartments that Barbara put up. And she was just constantly talking about Tony all the time. She was very, very focused. Which, again, if you're looking at it from the other side, it's like, that's your only child. Yeah. And your husband left you and now you're kind of both clinging on to each other. Yeah.

But you can definitely look at it both ways. A few sides here. Yeah, but the portraits were often described as creepy. Yeah. Now, one of Barbara's own friends, Alan Harrington, said that she called him on the phone to tell him that she had slept with Tony to cure him. Oh, being gay.

Who? Another man who made friends with Barbara on a cruise said she also told him the same thing and said she was, quote, very honest about it. She said she had done it to break him of his homosexual tendencies. She talked about it as though it were a therapeutic act. I'm horrified. Yeah. Especially, especially like for all of this, like a dude on a cruise you meet, like why? Tell him about this. Whoa. And then there were people that was like, yeah, like she just, and again, these are all like

alleged accounts, but there were people that were like, yeah, she just like said it at dinner one night, which makes you think like there's something so wrong here that she doesn't think it's wrong. That she doesn't think it's wrong. Something that would horrify people. Right, because that's the thing. It's like normally like, I would think when this happens, people, I mean,

people try to hide this, what happens. I would think you would feel shame. And also it's, it's like, there's so many layers to it. Cause it's like, you don't find anything wrong with like trying to cure someone of homosexuality, which I know at the time probably wouldn't shock everybody as much. Right. But then you add that layer of like it's my son.

Yeah. Like you have the incest into it. It's like no, you should feel some shame here. Right. What are you doing just saying this in front of people? Which makes me very much question what state she was in. That's the thing, I think. Yeah.

She was, because it just seems, she wasn't in a good state. Yeah, it was constantly, even after Brooks left. Wow. She was like threatening to kill herself. She attempted to. So those were all times. Wow, yeah. And then at the same time, I read articles where, like, we're saying,

like, you would, so she's telling people she's having an incest, she was a fair and you're like, well, not shock people. But then it's like, she at one point slit her wrists and showed people and was like, oh, guess what, where I was this morning, like at the hospital. So it's like, I don't, I think she was like disassociated somehow.

Yeah, there was just like no filter happening. And again, this was so long ago that she's not going to the right people. There wasn't medical attention available to her. No, like this wasn't understood. It wasn't understood, exactly. Yeah. So it's a lot, it's attention available to her. No, this wasn't understood. It wasn't understood, exactly. Yeah. So it's a lot, it's a lot too.

Now, once Brooks left, Barbara's mental health only declined more and more, and Tony now was the one taking the brunt of it. Because like I said, they would argue over like, what restaurants to go to and end in like a physical assault? So like what's the number of Tony's taking the brunt of it? Barbara was super hard on him, especially because she was so upset about his sexuality,

and eventually Tony began to struggle with his own mental health. Now not to mention, back when he was with Jake Cooper, he had eaten like an entire thing of Beladana, which is known to cause hallucinations and ongoing mental problems. I was gonna say, because it's not like it just like,

it's like, whoop, it doesn't just go away. It's gonna run its course for a long time. Yeah, exactly. Like, Beladonna, it doesn't even sound like a real thing. That's wild. It's insane. He was prone to serious and like really scary bouts of anger.

And obviously, if this alleged incest is happening to him, that's also part of it. For sure. During some of these, and it was always Barbara, that was like, at taking the brunt of his anger because they were so codependent. It was like yeah this is just such a really volatile. Volatile relationship.

Volatile relationship. But he would threaten Barbara with knives, he would choke her. There were times where people were like yeah I literally saw him try to push her into oncoming traffic. My god. And things escalated really, really seriously one night when Barbara was attacked while she was leaving a dinner party that she'd attended in London. Someone came up behind her and tried to grab her, but she was able to make a break for it. Whoever this person was then grabbed her by the hair and allegedly ripped a clump of hair out.

Whoa. And then threw her down on the ground and then tried to drag her into oncoming traffic. Yes. She was able to get away again, but the man ran into the house and then came back with a knife and started heading her way. Like, he ran into the house that she was at a dinner party at. It was her friend's house. So obviously, it was just some random dude.

I don't know. It was this guy Obviously, he knows the layout of this house So he goes and gets a knife and comes back and he's like screaming that any woman who's near her is gonna get it What if they like intervene? Yeah, so then he starts going barbers way But just in the nick of time a couple people who lived in the house that like weren't there at the time the nick of time, a couple people who lived in the house that weren't there at the time, intervened, and Barbara's friend Sue came onto the scene, and somehow whoever this was got scared away, ran back into the house out the back door and into the alleyways and

got away. In Barbara said, that was Tony. What? That was Tony. That is like Jack the Ripper style. The gin, like just like coming out of the shadows. The shadows. And disappearing into the alleys of London,

like what the fuck? Right, right. Holy shit. The whole thing has just been in it. This is like really chaotic. It's truly very chaotic. So Barbara knew it was Tony. And when the police arrived, she was like,

that was Tony and he was arrested for attempted murder. And that was her son. That's her son. Yeah, but that's not the first time that he even tried to like for her. Wow. So he ended up being admitted to a private, a private psych, he said, he ended up being admitted to a private psychiatric hospital called the Priory, but he didn't spend a long time there at all because Barbara just wouldn't listen to the psychiatrist warnings, and she also didn't have the money anymore to keep him like getting the treatment that he needed because Brooks cut her allowance. Oh boy. Which I'm like a grown woman getting an allowance. It's just like the craziest thing. That's crazy. But seems like almost like an alimony kind of thing. Yeah, probably. But the psychiatrist literally told her

that he believed it was Tony's full intention to kill her, full intention to kill her, and she answered him by saying, quote, he's been murdering me since the day he was born. Whether for him or his father, I don't know. I'm used to murder. And the psychiatrist was like, this is so sad.

It's so sad. The whole entire thing is so sad. Like from every angle, this is really sad. It's so sad. The whole entire thing is so sad. Like from every angle, this is really sad. It is. And the psychiatrist was like, I'm not talking metaphorically. Like I know, I know you're saying. I know what you're saying.

I know what you mean, but I'm not being hyperbolic here. He's going to try to kill you and he's going to kill you if he doesn't get the help he needs. Oh my God. And he said to her, I think you're at great risk. And she said, back to him, I don't. What?

Because she just didn't believe in her heart that her son could do something to her. I mean, who does? Of course not. You know? Now, a few months later, Tony was out of the hospital and again, living with his mother. And again, Barbara couldn't pay to keep up with his visit, so he's only getting worse

and worse. And Brooks refused to help at all. He said that his son was just inherently evil. Oh. So on the night of November 17th, 1972, according to Tony, he took a phone call from a friend. Now this is like, this is where it gets even weirder. So in the past couple weeks leading up to that night, Tony's behavior had become more and more erotic. He

was doing strange paintings of people with blood pouring out of their sides. He was doing paintings of his mom with snakes wrapped around her neck. Just like clearly in a very disturbed state. Lots of like symbolic images here. Yes, definitely. And just like, I just like, it tells you everything you need to know, like, clearly something was going on. Yeah. You know, he had also attacked her again and left her unconscious on the floor.

He'd been throwing things around the house. And then finally, he seemed to have been entering a calmer state. Because I think it seems like this is how it went. Like, it would be, it would blow up. And then there would be like cool down periods. Yeah. Now, so he takes this phone call in November 17th, and he said the phone call was his friend who told him that he'd fallen down in the elevator shaft and that it had taken a quote,

profound effect on him. So this is the friend telling Tony that Tony was the one who fell down the elevator shaft. So his friend calls, and says, hello, Tony, you fell down an elevator shaft. Apparently. It had a big effect on you. So I don't know, because it got like super confusing. I don't know if it was the friend who was trying to use a metaphor to tell Tony, like, you're falling down an elevator shaft.

Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, like metaphorically. Exactly. And he's like, you need more help. Like, let's figure this out. Like, I'm here to help you. That makes more sense. That's how I took it.

But I don't know if he meant it that way, if Tony actually had fallen down an elevator shaft, or if this conversation even happened at home, because it might not have even happened. That's true. Right. So either way, Tony said that he invited that friend over for a drink,

and then his mom came home. Now, Barbara had been at her friend's house earlier that day, Missy Handlin. Missy Son Mishka had cooked dinner for them and said the entire time, Barbara was just talking about Tony and how much better he was doing, and just like all the things that he was up to,

and she said, actually, he's gonna cook me dinner tonight. And I think it was one of those things because Missy Son was cooking lunch for them, and she was like, Tony's gonna cook dinner for me. Like I think it was one of those things because Missy's son was cooking lunch for them and she was like, Tony's gonna cook dinner for me. Like everything's A-OK. See, my son's just like yours. Me too, just so amazing.

And fortunately, that is not what happened. When Barbara got home, Tony told her that he was gonna be having a friend over. And Barbara was annoyed allegedly about the time that Tony said the friend was coming because it was earlier than she wanted him to come. So they started fighting. Okay. Now the fight made its way around the entire apartment.

It was getting more and more heated until it just became explosive. Tony later said that at one point, Barbara sat down in the middle of the fight and wrote something down on a piece of paper. And her doing that made him so mad that he just struck her and ripped up the piece of paper. And while he was doing that, she ran into the kitchen.

Ooh, lots going on here. Not awesome. Eventually things would end in the kitchen. So Tony chased her into the kitchen and then grabbed a knife, which he then stabbed into Barbara's heart, severing a major artery along the way, killing her. Wow. He killed Barbara, which is exactly what the doctor said would happen. Exactly what the doctor has said would happen.

She was 50 years old, and earlier that day, she had written a letter to one of her friends saying, Fridays are always suspect, don't you think? Ooh, like what? Ooh. Also, Brooks later pointed out that the next day when he found out what happened would have been their 30th wedding anniversary.

Holy shit. So later that night, Missy Handlin got a call saying like, hey, we heard you were with Barbara today. Like, when did she leave your house? Like, when did this happen? And they're asking her all these questions. And she's like, this time, this time, like, why? And they go, how well did you know the deceased?

And that's how she found out that her friend had died. Oh my God, that just gave me chills. Like, can you imagine that's how you find out you just spent the day with her? She just left your house, probably a couple hours ago. How well did you know the deceased? Oh, is that not crazy? Woof. So it's unclear who contacted the police.

There was a housekeeper that ran out of the house screaming, so it could have been her, could have been somebody who saw her screaming. But when they got there, I shit you know, and I saw this in every single source that I looked up. Tony was sitting in the bedroom ordering Chinese food. Wow. Just had like total just snap from reality, total snap.

Exactly. Wow. He had the wherewithal to confess the murder and he said to the police, quote, my mind was slightly wacky and I was very much under my mother's influence. I felt she was controlling my mind. Ooh, this is just like,

this is all just such a poisonous family. It's just poison everywhere. So toxic. Now it was clear to authorities and doctors that even though Tony knew what had happened right then and there, he wasn't doing well mentally. And over the following days, he didn't seem to realize that like what he had done,

that he didn't know that she was gone because people would come and visit and he would say, how's my mom doing? Like he, I don't know if he realized that he actually killed her. Yeah. No, he seems like it was a total break from reality. Absolutely, total break.

He also told them that everything started when he was little and fell off a pogo stick but just left it at that and wouldn't say anything more. That's strange. He was just like speaking like nonsense, basically, just saying like little things like that and then going off into something else. Ooh.

And then there were also times where he said that it was his grandmother's fault and she was the one who stabbed Barbara, but that couldn't be true because this happened in London and his grandmother was in New York. Yeah, that would be hard. It would be very difficult. Yeah.

So while waiting for his trial and sentencing, Tony was held at Brixton Prison in the UK. It's like a very high security prison, like a lot of nearly murderers go there. Now, when the case went to trial, John Mortimer, he, what did I say earlier? It took place. It took place.

John Mortimer took place. Yeah, he took place here. He was the one who represented Tony in court. His goal was to have Tony sent back to America to undergo treatment, but in the end, Tony was found guilty of manslaughter, and he was sentenced to Broadmore Hospital in the UK instead of jail time.

I had a feeling that was coming. Yeah, and he ended up being diagnosed with schizophrenia, which is just like, that makes a lot of sense. So heartbreaking and so sad. Oh, this whole thing is like, oh. It really, it's just tragic. It's just tragic.

Yeah. It's tragic. There's just no way to look at this other than tragic. Well, and you just, there was no way out of this. I mean, it's like, how was this gonna? Yeah. Like, how is this gonna end any other way? Yeah, just, people needed help from the jump.

Yeah, I mean, Barbara needed help. Starting with Barbara. Starting with Neenie, the mother Barbara's mother. Yeah, I mean, Barbara had to help. Starting with Barbara. Starting with Neenie, the mother Barbara's mother. Yeah, it's like there was a long line of not being, like mental illness, not being taken care of. Absolutely. And it explodes, it literally exploded. Yeah.

But during this time where he was in Bromber hospital, he had tons of visitors, he would write letters back and forth with like the elite family friends and his grandmother, NeNe, who he said had done this. Which obviously he didn't, I don't even think he knew what he was saying. Yeah. And one of his letters to NeNe, he wrote, quote,

nevertheless, I feel better now. And I even feel a great weight has been removed from my shoulders. And odd thing is, she told me that I would kill her this summer several times. I thought this the most unlikely thing in the world. That the poetic nature with which he describes this. So remember he's a writer.

Really unsettling. He wanted to be a poet. Oh he wanted to be writer. That is some beautiful prose that he just spun about murdering his mother. Beautiful terrifying prose. Like wow. And then so it's like she said like Fridays are suspect. And then an odd thing is she told me that I would kill her this summer several times.

And then even the thing that she sent to the psychiatrist like they've been murdering me since yeah he's been murdering me since he was born because you wonder if she was just like several like during some of their spats and stuff she would be like you you're gonna be kill me you're gonna be the death of me. Oh yeah. I mean like, well, but I don't think she meant it literally. But maybe she did, she might have, because I mean, he attempted to kill her one, on like one really big time, and then there were other times he knocked her unconscious.

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. You can, this case every time I'm like, well, maybe they meant this, but you know, but maybe he actually left the table here. Right? Literally nothing. No. So like I mentioned in the beginning,

Barbara's mother, Neenie had also been through her own struggles with mental health and the loss of her daughter now. But just like any grandmother, grandmother, and a grandmother, just like any grandmother in the world, she had a soft spot when it came to her grandson. She thought he could do no wrong. And she thought that he would do much better in the US under her care.

So she wanted to turn his life around. So she reached out to all of their big money friends, the social elite, there was this man named Hugo Money Coots. He and his family controlled a really exclusive bank. So they had a family or anything. Yeah. So she was talking to big money dudes here, people with money that could probably bribe like the hospital to get Tony out to anything.

It was a huge campaign just to get Tony out and brought back to the US. But Brooks insert him in, insert Brooks back into the picture. So I'm trying to say he totally disagreed with Neenie. He thought that Tony was exactly where he needed to be. Again, he said Tony was evil and should have been convicted of first degree murder. Wow. And because he felt so strongly about this and it seems like he had hatred for Tony. Yeah.

I wonder if some part of him still loved Barbara somehow. Yeah. I mean, I think all of the emotions in this whole case are all completely obscured and just like we can't, none of them are pure. You know what I mean? There's no, you can't just be like, oh, well, he loved her.

It's just like, you're like, I think part of him, there was like a weird love in a huda. You don't like, you just have to like, weed through the nonsense to find it. Right. But yeah, I think there was like, I mean, and honestly, he wasn't around. Right.

So it's not like he really knew this kid as a man. No, not at all. So it's like, he just only knows him as a kid. And it's weird that he had that, he surmised that from his childhood when he really wasn't taking care of him as a child. Right. So it's strange.

It is really strange. I just wonder where that came from. But it's weird that he's like Tony, so evil and like, you know, and then even just to say the thing, like I found out on what would have been our 30th anniversary. Yeah. When he was remarried and actually had a child. Yeah, so it's like it wouldn't have been your anniversary.

Because you're a different one. Your anniversary? You're in a less stop when you stop being together. Like I don't count my anniversaries with my ex-boyfriends. No, I can't say anything. I like, you know, just keep going and be like, wow, it's been 20 years, being together. Like I don't count my anniversaries with my ex-boyfriends. No, I can't say anything about that. Like you don't just keep going and be like, wow, it's been 20 years not together.

It's so funny if we hadn't broken up. If we hadn't broken up 18 years ago, wow. It would have been our 30th if I hadn't abandoned you and my six child. Exactly, so. But then you have, look it at the other way and you're like, what was he supposed to do? Did he do something in him as a child that was scary?

Yeah. If he'd look at him as a child and be like, this kid is scary, maybe. Because I mean, it is his. Yeah, you know, or did, I mean, and also he looked at Barbara and was like, maybe, again, maybe he loved her, but he just couldn't handle the bullet time

he knew that he wouldn't be able to take care of her or get through it with her. Exactly. Like he should have. But so while everybody was campaigning to get Tony out, Brooks was basically campaigning to keep him in. He was like, no. And he also said that. So at this point, Brooks had another child, a son.

And he said that Tony had made and sent his son like weird macabre gifts. Oh, and I couldn't find anything to say like what these gifts were, but Tony really enjoyed making things like crafts and stuff like that while he was at Broadmore. And Brooke said that they were so creepy and weird that he threw them out immediately. Because it was scared they were like messages or something.

Yeah, it was just like freaked out by them. I don't blame them. But at the end of the day, it was not Brooke's decision. And all these big money people are rallying against him, so obviously I have to imagine there was some kind of bribe involved. Oh, I'm sure. He's in there for murder. Oh, yes, somebody lined somebody's pockets.

Absolutely, I mean, we're talking about Hugo here. He who goes involved? He will go with involved. Come on. So Tony was released from Broadmore in 1980, and his release was contingent on him being put directly under the care of his grandmother, 87 year olds, Meanie. What?

In New York City. Who thought this was a good idea? This woman is 87 years old by herself. Her health is ailing. She's also in a fucking wheelchair. Yeah. It's like how is she gonna look after him, you know? And immediately, she showed that she really couldn't look

after him because again, he's in London, he has to fly back to New York. He has to be with someone because his release was contingent upon him being with her. Yeah, but she can't fly back and forth at this point because of her health as ailing. So she enlisted one of her friends daughters who Tony had never even met.

So just this random girl. Basically, it was her Nini's friends' daughter, and apparently they just lived close to Broadmore, and the daughter was like, yeah, sure, like, sure, I'll bring him. Sounds convenient, I guess. So it was more a plan of convenience than actual safety. Wow.

It's like, what is this girl gonna do if he, if something happens? What if he like loses it? Exactly. So Brooks was pissed and in his opinion, this was absolute bullshit and a sign that Tony was not gonna be in good hands. And he kept saying he was really worried

that Tony was gonna kill someone else. So he even tried to have his release reversed, but it didn't work. Oh man, his attempts were futile. So, I feel to have his release reversed, but it didn't work. Oh, man, his attempts were futile. So I feel like this isn't going to be like, and then everything worked out. The end. No, no, this is not going to be that. I think it's a dumpster fire. Awesome. Brooks seemed to be the only one who realized how sick Tony actually was in a weird way. Like, even though he was so mad at him, he was like, he's evil, I think he cared. Well, I think he

was like, he needs to stay in the hospital. Like, he needs to be constantly monitored. That's just like, he's sick. He's sick and you're concerned. You need help. He's concerned about like public safety. Yeah. I mean, I get that.

So everyone else at this time was like, no, like, he's fine. He was happy at the Broadmoor. He changed after a year there. And, you know, I think it was just like, everyone was like, everyone was like, it was Barbara, like unfortunately it was Barbara. It's like, totally. I fucked up how she was.

Nobody deserves to get murdered by their fucking kid. Yeah, and it's like, dude, like, you don't, after a year of being in a hospital, I've to even murdered your own mother. Right. That's not enough time, I feel. Well, definitely not enough time. And it's like, okay, so what happens

to the next person that pisses him off? Yeah. Because he was literally just pissed that his feel. And definitely not enough time. And it's like, okay, so what happens to the next person, that pisses him off? Yeah. Because he was literally just pissed that his friend couldn't come over on time. Exactly. And like, obviously, I don't think that was just a lot of history there.

I was going to say, I'm history there. There's a lot bubbling under that surface. But then we'll see, was it because of the hiss, I mean, yes, it was because of the history, but in that moment, I think it was just that he was fucking pissed and couldn't get what he wanted. I think he just needs help. He does need help.

He says it gets a frenic. Yeah. And he's killed someone now. So I think he just needs help. Correct. So he's got to stay there. He shut up. So after a few days of living with Nini,

Tony had built what some would call a shrine to his mother. He built her shrine and he would whisper to himself while holding her ashes. And I read in her shrine and he would whisper to himself while holding her ashes. And I read it like some sources that he would whisper like satanic things when I was like I think you're just being like a little, yeah that sounds like bullshit. It's like don't be rude. Yeah he probably is just whispering. He's probably nonsense.

Yeah exactly. Yeah, unfortunately or things that make sense to him. Right. So Nini was like, well shit, but you know I have to try this because I got him out. So I just, I'm sorry I just pictured this like 87 year old being like, well shit, but you know, I have to try this because I got him out. So I'm sorry, I just picture this like 87 year old being like, well shit. No, I know what's true. I think she was just in way over her head and I think, yeah, I think seeing somebody in a state like that is a lot different than like visiting them when they're in a controlled environment.

A controlled environment where they're getting the help that they need. Exactly. A calm controlled environment. And now you're bringing them out into the chaotic world. And this family is just straight up chaotic. Yeah. Because Remembrance has her struggles with mental health too. Oh yeah.

So it hadn't even been a week since his release when Tony and his grandmother got into a heated argument over a simple telephone call. Oh no. He said that his grandma was a mysterious woman and like wouldn't let him call people but I also was like he wanted to call someone in England and she wouldn't let him and also like that shit's expensive. Oh she's gonna say I'm sorry long distance calls are expensive. I think that's really all it was. When I was little it was expensive. When I was little it was a good like it was a good trouble for you like you do like fake like prank calls and you'd accidentally call someone

in like another country and you'd be like, well, I thought I didn't show it up on the phone bill and they were like, what the hell is this? God, it's for a week. But Tony was absolutely enraged when she told him that he couldn't use the phone. So he threw it at her and he ended up hitting her in the head and she fell over.

And then Tony repeated what everybody thought he had been cured of. He immediately grabbed a knife from the kitchen and started stabbing his own grandmother over and over and over again. Oh my God. She was still screaming when the police arrived. And Tony calmly looked at them and said like she just won't die. She's just not dying. Oh, by that point, he had stabbed her eight times and broken multiple bones. And when he was asked what happened, Tony said he threw the phone at her.

And then when she fell over, he decided it would have been kinder to kill her than to just leave her on the floor or leave her to go to the hospital and suffer all these broken bones. It'd be better just to kill her in his rationale. No, that doesn't make sense. Nini survived to the attack. What? She was 87? She was 87 years old. What?

And later on, she just said, like, she was like, I thought that I could help him, but I couldn't, unfortunately, like, that's a really sad. The same thing almost happened to me that happened to my daughter, and I didn't realize that. That's a really sad.

And this is, again, like, a trigger warning because this is just a lot. He later, Tony later admitted to his psychiatrist that he had been hearing voices leading up to this night and that he had also thought about sleeping with his grandmother. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of fucked up shit happening here. A lot of fucked up shit. So much fucked up shit. Yes. Oh, this is just like really

fucked up. The whole entire thing is so dark. Yeah, it's like you don't even know how to describe it. It's just like it is. It's just dark. It's just dark and it's bleak. Wow. So Tony was obviously again arrested and charged with attempted murder. Now he's in New York at this point. So he ends up getting a life sentence at Reikers Island. Island, which I don't even think I need to explain to you, but if you're not from here, Riker's Island is literally the most intense jail in New York. Or excuse me, prison in New York. Yeah.

Like the worst of the worst go there, and it's probably the scariest place in this area. Yeah. Now, just eight months into his sentence, he requested bail. And his request was put on hold while Reikers waited for his records from Broadmore. So he probably wasn't going to get released on bail. Probably. But on March 20, 1981, the day that he found out he would have to wait for those records, he walked back to his cell and was later found that very day with a plastic bag wrapped around his head and he was dead.

Now, wow. People still question whether or not he killed himself or if he was killed. Oh, yeah, nobody knows because the thing that people were pointing out was like He was attached to all this big money. So he was able to do whatever he really wanted in prison because you know how that goes like yeah again Brides and stuff like that. So he made a lot of enemies along the way So it's like you could have been killed or he could have just killed himself because he didn't want to be in that environment anymore And it's like or it's like he killed his own mother and his grandmother Mm-hmm. I don't know if that throws him lower on the hierarchy of prison. Yeah, bro I'm not gonna be a target, you know like along with like kids I think women tend to be especially like the hierarchy of prison. Yeah, probably. To be a target, you know, like along with like kids, I think women tend to be, especially like your mother

and grandmother. Yeah, it's like, especially like that when you were in circle like that. Yeah. But I mean, you could see either way. Yeah. Or honestly, who knows, like he, he was really suffering with like mental illness.

Like it's schizophrenia. Maybe he didn't mean to do that. Yeah. Maybe he just, you know, yeah, I don't know. There's nobody knows. So still nobody knows. And I read a book about this. It's called Savage Grace by Natalie Robbins and Steven M. L.

Aronson, who was connected to Barbara at the time, like, one of the same circle as her. So there's all the way the book is written is really cool. It's all these interviews with people who were involved in the circle and like Sylvie's in there, their statements from Brooks in there, their statements from Nini in there.

There's transcripts of psychiatrist notes like interviews with Tony. Oh, that's interesting. It's a really good read. It's a really highly criticized book, I think, because it's intense, you know? Yeah, and some people debate that the incest thing didn't happen.

So it's just a hot topic. Yeah, and then they eventually made a movie saving great, or excuse me, Savage Grace. I was just looking at that. Again, is very highly criticized. Julianne Moore stars in it. Yeah, and what's his name? The other guy. Ah, la la la la la la la. Yeah, and what's his name? The other guy?

Ah, la la la la la la. Why can't I remember the name? I am D.D. See, I love him as an actor. And I can't think of his name right now. I'm gonna look it up for some weird reason, so we're just gonna like, vamp it up until we figure it out.

So Julianne Moore plays Barbara Beeklin. And then the son is played by that actor that I like. I'm looking for it. He's got red hair. Oh, just popped in my head and then went away. Eddie Redmane. Yep, there it is. And then we have Stephen Dillan and Reed.

There's a lot, lot of good people in here. There you go. But Julianne Moore and Eddie Redmane are the main characters. Yeah, the main characters. It's Barbara and Anthony. But again, it was like really highly criticized. Really? It's so funny because I don't think I've ever heard of it.

I've actually never heard of it either. And there was like two big stars. I think it also was like not rated because I made it up with a lot of stuff. I want to watch it, but I'm also like very scared to watch it. Do you know when it came out? 2007. 2007, yeah.

Yeah, because he looked really young. Yeah. It's just, I don't know if I want to watch it. Do you know when it came out? 2007. 2007 of it. Yeah. Yeah, because he looked really young. Yeah. It's just, I don't know if I want to watch it, because, you know, flowers in the attic was a lot to watch in another self. So, like, this might be even more to watch. Yeah. I mean, just, like, looking at the screenshots of it,

and I'm like, I don't know. I just watched, like, a little bit of the trailer while I was saying that, and I was like, I think I'm gonna sit this one out, especially after, like, pouring myself into this. I was like, I think I'm gonna sit this one out, especially after like pouring myself into this. I was like, I think I'm good. Yeah, I don't really need to and gross myself in that story anymore.

I think I'm gonna move on to something haunted. And I love T-July anymore. I do too, she's great after. Yeah, she is great. Yeah, you know. So guys, that is the story of Barbara Beklund. Wow. And...

Didn't know that that was the road. We would be trekking down. Yeah, I think we did take the road less travel to be honest with you. The road you should never travel. I feel like we don't travel that road. Wow. So thank you for that. Yeah, your face throughout this whole thing.

People are always like, I want that to be a visual thing. Sometimes you don't. I feel like at that, this probably would have been a crazy one. This would have been a crazy attempt. This would have been a funny one, because I think my face was just like, you just kept being twisted and horror the entire time? Your eyebrows were furrowed, your eyes were widened,

and you kept crouching into your cell high-pitched, and it's like curling into my own body. I'm like, it's a lot. But, you know, highly requested. Wow, thanks guys. I did it for the weirdos. I did it for the weirdos. I did it for the weirdos. And with that being said, let's talk about some weirdos.

Let's do that. Hey, Holly McNulty. Holly McNulty, your last name is the last name of the detective in the wire who I loved. McNulty, yeah. What'd you look at that? We then have Jessica and Narell. Jessica and Narell, I think you are swell.

I think you're swell as well. Let me have Katie McLelland. Katie McLelland, you have a great last name. I think it's cool. I don't have anything that rhymes with it though, but I appreciate you. Yeah, I like it a lot though. Then we have Raymond Farmer.

Raymond Farmer, you are like a suit of armor. You make me feel protected, and I love you for it. Wow, that was like really good. Then next up is Melissa Mene, who I bet is not a Meene. No way, you're a nicey. A nicey. Thank you, Melissa. Thank you.

Then we have Audrey Pradell. Audrey Pradell. I feel like it's like Pradell. It feels like like a prominent last name. It feels like it would be like a Sephora. Like it feels like it would be like a really nice makeup place. Or just like maybe I think you're thinking of that because like the Prudential Center.

Prudential. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't know either way. Then we have Samantha Fleglitt. Samantha Fleglitt. Or Flegit, sorry, I'm flakest. You did it.

And I appreciate that about you. You probably bake really well, I feel. I don't know. Sometimes you say that to like people and I appreciate that about you. You probably bake really well, I feel. I don't know. Sometimes you say that to like people and I think it's funny. And I think it's right. I think it is. I like this last name. We have Susan Clevanshire.

Oh, Clevanshire. It's probably Clevanshire, but I like that. I like that. Either way, that's an awesome last name. And you're awesome for donating. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Then we have Madison Dillinger. Madison Dillinger, you know you have a good last name. You know you do. You know you belong here. You know it. And I appreciate it. And then we do have one, two, three, four, three. I'm gonna name three Patreon Hall of Fame people.

Oh, are you ready for the Hall of Fame? Ba-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da L.E.O. you are an MVP as well. Thank you so much. And last but certainly never the least, we have Caitlin Danzenger. Caitlin Danzenger, you are the third VIP of the day and I appreciate you guys. You belong in the Hall of Fame. We're gonna scream your name. Oh, thank you guys so much for listening and we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it.

Woo. But that's where you do any of the things involved in this episode because like just don't do that Literally don't do even one of these things none None except maybe post for like Harper's Bazaar and Vogue that'd be cool Don't even do just don't do any of it. Oh, yeah, it's a blanket statement nothing not to not to do. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morbid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.