Morbid - Episode 271: The Villisca Axe Murders Part 1

Episode Date: October 18, 2021

If you know true crime then you know The Villisca Axe Murders. In 1912 an entire family and two house guests were brutally killed in their sleep by a cold blooded beast. There have been a couple suspects over the years, but somehow this case remains officially unsolved. The details are spine chilling, but the case itself is one of the most fascinating.  Amazing sources used for this episode include: The Man From The Train by Bill James  A Nightmare in Villisca By Richard Estep  Villisca by Roy Marshall  1912 Villisca Axe Murders Blog  As always, thank you to our sponsors: HelloFresh: Get up to fourteen free meals—including free shipping! — with code morbid14 at HelloFresh.com/morbid14 BetterHelp: Special offer for Morbid listeners: get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/[Morbid] CareOf: For 50% off your first Care/of order, go to TakeCareOf.com and enter code morbid50 BestFiends: Download Best Fiends FREE today on the App Store or Google Play..That’s friends, without the r—Best Fiends. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alena. And this is morbid of the week. Third morbid of the week. Third morbid of the week. And next week you're going to get three, two. And this isn't really a wrap, but here it was. You enjoyed it. It's the nighttime. And you know what that means. It's weird. Keeping it weird at night. It's spooky season. So we

decided spooky season. We're just gonna throw all the episodes we can't match all the spooky episodes. Yeah, and you could think the patronesses for that because they wrote a lot of good listener tales that like you just need to have pounded into your ear meat. They provided us with some beautiful spookiness. Yeah. And for that we just are going to keep just puking it right back at ya. But this episode I'm actually really excited about. I've been wanting to cover this case.

Now let me, I'm not excited about the actual crime that occurred. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a very interesting case. I feel I don't need to say that, but you know. You know, you get it, you get it, you get it. You get it, you get it. We're far in here, you understand.

But I love the house, like our new thing. Like you just talk really fast, but I just go, I'm like, I'm a little kid, it's fun. This is fun. This is fun. But this case, I have been wanting to cover forever. I just go, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, It is the Baliska Axe murders. Oh, what? For some reason. Okay, like, first of all, very, very excited to hear this. This horrible, I don't know how to wear this. So yeah, there's no way to wear this. It's a case that I find really fascinating.

And second of all, I wasn't expecting you to say that. Really? No, that's funny. I don't know. Yeah, this is one of those, because I think I covered early on the Hinter kyfak, Axmerders. Axmerders are pretty fascinating to me. And this one, Veliska has always been like, just sitting there waiting for me and I was like,

I'm gonna get ya. We should also go to that house together. I wanna go to the house so bad. Yeah, especially after diving into this. Shout out to Before We Go Ahead. We have to shout out, I forget who it was, especially after diving into this shout out to before we go ahead We have to shout out I forget who it was, but you're gonna know if it's you shout out to you But the person who recommended that we go to The farm what's the farm where we're going? Oh, yes, you recommended

Conner's farm Conner's farm in Denver's and it's like an outdoor You're like finished the sentence. Yeah, it's really it's like an outdoor. You're like finished the sentence. Yeah, it's really, it looks like it's gonna be really fun. We bought tickets to the outdoor haunted, like haunted corn mies and hay ride and the haunted house, all that fun stuff, but all outside,

like we were saying we wanted to do. So shout out to you. You rule. Thanks. Thank you so much. If you tweet at me, I'll say your name on the next episode. I was gonna say, please tweet at us because we wanna thank you properly,

but I'm very excited for it. We don't know when we're gonna be able to go, but dammit, we're gonna go. But we're gonna go. So I feel like we're gonna wait until the kids go to sleep and then we'll go at like 10 o'clock a night. Yeah, we only have like two weeks left, but we'll figure it out.

We've got so small windows at time. Open on like two weeks left, but we'll figure it out. We've got so small windows at time. Open on Fridays and Saturdays, but we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. But back to the Veliscax murders. Yeah, we should go in there. This one is going to be,

so today I'm gonna talk about the murders. I'm gonna talk about the whole crime scene, the whole Shabang that happened around that. I'm gonna talk about one suspect today. One suspect that when I first started reading about this, I was like, oh, he did it. Why does no one know that he did it? And then you were like,

and then I started looking further into it and I was like, wait a second. So then we're gonna do another episode where we cover a few other suspects. Just to get them out there, because they're big theories, but then I'm gonna just, I'm gonna drop kick you with what I think is the right theory.

I don't drop kick you. And then in the same episode, I'm also gonna go into the hauntings that are now at the, because it's spooky season. Right, right, right. So we gotta have a little bit of the hauntings in there and man, the Sources hauntings. Like, into Daff.

I thought you were gonna say, like episode one, we're gonna talk about the murders in the suspects and then episode two, we're gonna talk about the murders and the suspects, then in episode two, we're gonna talk about the hauntings, but I'm kind of excited that you're gonna be a mismatch. Cause you're gonna get us, like, sitting on this one person, and then you're gonna drop kick us,

and I'm said, I'm gonna roundhouse kick you in the face with another's ear. Awesome. One time, right? She punched me in the face. It was awesome. You have to say it's gonna be awesome. You have to say, like, awesome.

She like breeds it. It was awesome. Yeah, it's gonna be a lot because my theory is gonna involve a lot of other ax murders. So we're gonna talk about some more. Makes sense. So we're gonna talk about some more in the second episode. So get ready, there's gonna be a lot of ax murders.

You know what they say once an ax murder, always an ax murder. They always say that. I hear it all the time. Yes, it really is. It's on T-shirts, I feel. Yeah, so. So this happened way back in 1912.

This was June 10th, 1912 in the list of Iowa. A lot about that period, I'm sure. Oh yeah, I loved living in this period of time. It was a simpler time. No. Sorry, I simpler time. No. Sorry, I'm sorry. I have an age shame due in a while. It's fun. You really have an adventure.

I appreciate it. I felt good. But yeah, so what's interesting about this is, according to, first of all, what's interesting to me is that the dictionary of Iowa place names exists. But what's even more interesting is that in that, I found that the town got its name because it sounded like the sack and fox tribes word, walesca, and they thought the word was something nice

and meant pleasant place or like pretty. You thought. You thought. Yeah, they thought, well, they were wrong and it actually means evil spirit Yeah, that'll that'll do it. So while they didn't name their town, Wolliska They named it Volaska because they thought it sounded so it's got a weird start already W and half is all but regardless of that little unfortunate mix up of Terminologies

Volaska was known to be safe in this time where people didn't lock their doors. They knew each other. They looked out for each other. It was also a dry town at the time, so they didn't even have the chaotic energy of alcohol around. So there wasn't a lot of, you know, because I feel like in this time period too, a lot of people were alcoholics because there wasn't a lot what the fuck know, because I feel like in this time period too, like a lot of people were alcoholics because like there wasn't a lot what the fuck I'll do. And I feel like that can lead to chaos. So it leases down.

It can lead to chaos. Yeah. So that wasn't even like a contributing factor here because it was a dry town and everybody was pretty fine with it being a dry town at the time. That's why I'll see. It seemed to not be really a problem for them. But I read up, I so I kept seeing something about the street lights during this night and I was like the street light. What, like what was up with the street lights? Apparently all of the street lights in the town were off this one night.

The night of the murder. Was there like a person that was in charge of that? Well, it's for a crazy reason. So the town council was in like a knockdown dragout fight with the Velisca Public Service Company who controlled the lights. And it was over the lights in the town. So for months, they had been fighting back and forth.

It went to like this, sir. It went to court. It was just crazy because the town wanted better lighting. They wanted replacement lights. They wanted like replacement, they wanted replacement utility poles. Like, very reasonable things. Yeah, fair. I would say.

Fair. And the light company was like, huh, nope. And it all came to a head on the night of the murders when the Velisca Public Service Company shut off the street lights in the town. As like a fuck you? As like fuck you guys. Like you don't wanna do it,

like you're gonna fight with us, we're gonna shut off all the fucking lights. We're in charge of these things. So outside this night was pitch black. Yeah, like think of like a pitch for like driven in like a like old country road where there's no lights, that shit is scary. It adds to the craziness of this night

and the scare factor of this night. And it would have made it much easier for someone to creep around undetected outside. Absolutely. So, and they were turned back on the Monday after the murders. Oh, I hate that. So they were off for this like 24 hour period of time

where it was just like mayhem and such. Like really coincides. And we're like, what a weird coincidence that they got shut off on the night that this prowler decided to do. Like it's just's really coincides. And what a weird coincidence that they got shut off on the night that this prowler decided to do, like it's just a really weird coincidence. Do you think maybe he could have worked at the light place?

Well, actually, there was a pretty wild fairy that somebody, you know, the light and rage had done it. And then, or somebody on the town had like, had somebody do it to show that they needed better lighting because look, a whole family got ax murdered when the lights were off. It's a ridiculous theory. It's a half things have happened.

That did not happen. You're like, that's stupid. That did not happen. I was talking with you. So sometime after midnight, again, on June 10th, 1912, sometime after midnight, we don't have a specific time of death because it's 1912, and also, who boy they did not court an off the crime scene.

So again, we have- We have what we have to go with. We know it was sometime after midnight, because they did, they were able to tell through like, levity and stuff and like, some other factors. They, there was a little bit of, there's a few things in this case that I was like,

all right, like A for F for F. All right, you guys, you guys gave it a shot. Nice, like a for you. I want you to say some time around midnight again. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history,

presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we look at the kids for Cash Scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers, and often for committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme,

one that would shatter the lives of countless children and force a heated debate about punishment and America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder App. What if you were trafficked into a cult over shot nine times, or fell in love with a vampire, or went into a minor surgery and woke up one week later, paralyzed? What would you do? I'm Whit Missildine, the creator of this is actually happening, a podcast from Wondry that brings you extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them.

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What? Sometime around midnight. It keeps my after midnight. Actually, it's like a song by the airborne toxic of it. And every time you say it, the guys must does it in my head and it's like, whoop, sometimes after midnight. It's sometime after midnight and before 5am. So sometime in that stretch of time,

a killer entered a beautiful farmhouse through an unlocked door. Because again, nobody's locking their doors at this point, though, and it wasn't a problem, because everybody's just like, no hammer, everybody's cool. On his way into the home, he had been outside, clearly for a little bit outside

of the home. So he had found or seen at some point, possibly when casing the home, he saw that there was an axe, a long handled axe, either in the shed on the home's property or outside of the shed, like right outside of the shed on the property. It could have been an either one. He stopped at that shed and he took that axe before walking into the home with it into in his hands. Lock your axes up.

Inside the house, he found an oil lamp. Like, you know, they all used kerosene lamps at that point. And they all had those glass chimneys on them. Like you can picture the lamp that I'm talking about. Absolutely. And it's called a chimney, that little glass part. So he found an oil lamp in there. He removed that chimney, that glass globe off of it

and placed the chimney under either a chair or a dresser. You see it in both ways and various sources? I'm gonna go with a chair, because I see that fitting better. Well, dressers were like weird too, because they had the taller thing. Yeah, you're right. But then he split the wick on the candle and two I see that fitting better. Well, dressers were like weird too, because they had the taller thing. Yeah, you're right. But then he split the wick on the candle and two

to make sure that he cast a dimmer light. What? Very specific move. Who the fuck would think of that? Very specific move. And we'll remember that later, possibly in the second episode. Just remember that that's a thing that happened here. And then he set out on a mission that evening.

He walked right past the downstairs bedroom, which was right off the parlor. In that downstairs bedroom, we're two sleeping little girls. And he walked straight to the bedroom upstairs on the second floor of 39-year-old Sarah Moore and 43-year-old Josiah B. Moore. In that bedroom, he raised the axe high above his head and crashed it back down over and over on both Joccia and Sarah's faces. Oh man. Now,

the next morning, a woman named Mary Peckham, was the first to notice something was a miss at the home of Joe and Sarah Moore the next morning. Mary was a neighbor, very close by neighbor. She was very close to the family. They knew each other. I believe in her early 60s. She was not super at the time that was like, oh, she's a grandmother. They were like, whoa, what's her secret? Look at that elderly witch over there. It's like a little... But she was their neighbor super close and she woke up very early around like four or five a.m.

that morning, because again, everybody's like, got farms, they have animals, they're all up when the cows wake up. Do in farm girl shit. So she comes out, she starts working outside, doing laundry, tending to her animals and she was really concentrated on the chores that she had. And before she know it, a couple of hours had passed by,

and around like six or seven a.m., she was like, huh. Nobody's awake at the more house, which was weird. And she was like, this is weird. Usually I would hear the sounds of children. They would all be up doing their chores and laughing and playing. There wasn't the sounds of Joe Moore awake or Sarah Moore playing with the kids are doing their chores. And did they have animals too? They had a lot of animals. So she noticed like a good interested neighbor as well, that their

curtains were still not opened and that there was no lighter movement inside at all. And the moors like you were just saying they had a ton of animals, they had chickens, cows, horses, and they were all the animals are starting to get a little like what the fuck is going on too? Because they all need things. Things do. Like cows need to be milked in the morning.

Like they, you know, and horses need to be locked around and fed the chickens need to be let out of their coop. Like a ton of stuff needed to happen hours before this, and it wasn't. And the mors took good care of their farm and their animals. So this was very strange. The mors were also well known and very well liked in town. Joe ran a prominent business,

and Sarah was very involved in the local Presbyterian church where their children were also very involved and very beloved. Not a lot of people had like bad things to say about this family at all. Like from what it sounds like Sarah was like an amazing mother. She was amazing housekeeper. They all said because that was like your claim to fame back then was like you kept a very tidy house. And she still might claim to fame.

What are you talking about? And actually her father-in-law, one of the things he had to say about her on the stand was like, those children were always so clean. And I was like, well, shit, Sarah, good job. Like, doing mother. And to be honest, like when I first read it, I was like, wow, what a compliment.

And I was like, no, that's actually like a great compliment because as I looked at my youngest, it's foul. As I looked at my youngest while I was doing this research, I was like, yeah, they wouldn't say that about me on the stand, because I was like, she's a wreck right now. She's a hero. Because kids are so feral.

They're like, and she had young kids. So the fact that she kept those kids clean all the time, like good on her. It's tough. Good on Sarah. But they had like a beautiful, very large home for the time, a big farm, like we said tons of animals.

They took very good care of their property. So this morning, the quietness was strange. And they were always up by 7am. 7am was like sleeping till noon, like that's crazy. And usually they were up at the crack ass of dawn at 4am. So this was just not how mornings went. And something was off. It wasn't like, oh, maybe they all slept in or maybe she was like, I, something

was weird. There was just a bad vibe in there. And she said there was quote, an odd stillness that just came off of that house. It's like a feeling. Yeah. It was just like this. It was everything seemed to be frozen. And she was like, I don't know what's happening in there. So she knocked on the doors, because again, she's a good neighbor. Yeah. Mary's a great neighbor. I love Mary.

Rest in peace, Mary. But she knocks on the doors, she gets no answer. She tried to enter the home, because again, usually doors are open, and neighbors just walk into each other's houses, and are like, hey, buddy. No thanks. So she goes to go in, but it was locked.

And she was like, that's weird. She tries to back to us. She's like, what the fuck? It's locked. All the doors are locked. So she's like, that's strange. They don't lock all their doors, but like, OK. So she did what any good neighbor would do.

She took care of their animals. She did the chores for them. She started letting the chickens out, but milking the cows, doing whatever she needed to do, but she was getting more and more nervous as time was going on. Yeah, what a freaked out feeling that would be too. I feel like I would get tingles in my back doing all

like the chores. Like I feel like I would feel like it just is like, I don't know what's going on in there and I feel like she was walking around that house like doing things and she was probably looking back at it being like, what's going on? No one's waking it, like no one. What has gone in, and there was all the curtains were drawn.

And it's just, I don't, I can feel it. While I was reading it, I was like, I can feel this stillness and it's stressing me out. And I'm just, and the more you read about this case, especially, it feels like a movie. And it does. So when you keep having to remind yourself, like, no, this was really what happened.

It keeps blowing your mind over and over. Now, two girls were staying with the Moors that night who were not part of the family. They were 11 year old Lena Stilinger and nine year old Ina Stilinger, eight or nine. I saw in both sources, or a million sources, I say. But the still ingers, their parents were getting a little concerned as well because they were staying over the night before and they hadn't heard from their daughters yet. And again, everyone is awake at the As of Dawn. I'd lit like 7am, they

haven't called yet. Yeah, right. And basically it was like when the sun comes up, you call me. Right. Like that was their instructions the sun comes up, you call me. Right. Like that was their instructions. You call me to tell me that everything's okay and we'll decide when to come get you and all that. Right. So Sarah Stillinger, the girl's mom had actually called the more home to ask what the

plan was. Like when should we come get them or are you going to bring them home? Like what's going to happen? And she didn't get an answer, which she thought was weird because back then everybody answers their phone. And it's like, everything's so quiet back then that you're not missing phone calls

because shit's going on. Right. It's like, your house is fucking dead silent except for all of you in there. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's not the distractions of like TV and all that. Right. So it's like, it's just weird that somebody would continuously not answer the phone.

Right. So Mary is also getting more and more concerned. So Mary decides to call Joe Moore's brother Ross. And she told him what was going on. And she said, you know, I had seen the Moore's return home the night before. They'd returned home from this thing called like the Children's Services at their Presbyterian Church. Cute.

And it was the night before. It was this annual event too. It was like the kickoff of the summer. And it always started at like 8 p.m. Okay. They had arrived home around 10 p.m. because I think this program went to 9 p.m. or 9.30.

They probably hung out and then they went home. Right. Now these were special services that Sarah Moore actually ran for the church. And they'd be like I said, they began at 8 p.m. and they had like Sunday school classes with the kids. They would all sing. They would recite like Bible things and do also stuff of that nature. I really don't know, but it sounds awesome. Yeah. Sounds like a cool time for all them. Like, I'm really getting it. It sounds really fucking great. It sounds so fucking cool.

But all the more children were in that program as well. And so, where Ina and Lena still in here. Now, Ina and Lena had gone home with the Moors because they were friends with Catherine Moore, one of the children. She had invited them to sleep over that evening. Leighman, I know we're actually supposed to go to church that morning, then they plan to visit with their grandmother,

but they changed the plans at the last second, ask their parents if they could go to the Moors house. It was actually her older sister that said it was OK, because her parents were in the house at the time. Just like the series of events leading up to them being in that house is really unfortunate. Because it's just like the parents didn't even know that kind of, and it's like a change of plans.

Yeah, and it's just like very last minute. It's just like, they almost just missed what it's like. Like it just, it could have, I don't know, it's just a bummer. So Ross Joe's brother was concerned as well Because again, this was not like his brother. So he calls Joe Joe Moore's business headquarters, right? And this was Joe JB Moore implement company. He owned this business. Yeah It was a farming machinery and vehicle company

He would like rent out and sell equipment to farmers and all that good stuff. The flyer for the company advertised John Deere plow goods, Hoosier Seeders and Prestrills, Fort Smith wagons, Vellie Buggies, Vellie Harness, and Sharples tubular cream separators. That's my favorite. Those, I can't get those anywhere anymore. It's so hard to come by those

It really I just use my last ones on Monday. I was like son of a gun No, and I don't know if you heard the first thing John Deere plow goods Everybody knows the name John Deere. Yeah for like equipment That was a huge account that he had so he was making good money from that I would think so and he got that account when he left his old job, he took that account with him. So there was a little rivalry that was floating around town, which we will get into in episode two, so don't worry.

But that's just interesting, that that's the first thing that's advertised on his thing is when that he was like a little bit of a feud with someone about. Because it's also kind of like, I like fuck you. I know. And it's like John Deere Ploughgood's, but an employee for his company named Ed Selly answered the phone. And he was like, you know what, I was actually worried

about Joe too, because he was supposed to be at work like hours ago. And he was like, so I'll call him. So he called, he got no answer as well. So he decided, you know, I'm going to go check and person myself. I'm going to see if he's all right. So he showed, you know, I'm gonna go check him person myself. I'm gonna see if he's all right So he showed up at the more home and married Peckham the neighbor who initiated this whole wellness check

Fed the rest of the animals and stuff and he helped her She kind of filled him in on like what she had seen and what she was feeling They tried the door again. No one answered the door. So Ed Selly just decided to walk back to the store because he's like, I gotta go on sales calls and I don't wanna let that get all messed up. Yeah. So he was like, I'm gonna do that. But meanwhile, during the whole thing, Joe's brother Ross, who was called first,

has decided to now walk to the more farm as well to check, which I just keep thinking this must have been like, okay, honest. It's just like Ed's showing up. And Mary is probably like at this point, she's like, I'm not telling this fucking story again. She like writes it down. She literally is just like knock on the door,

figure it out yourself. I don't know. Context clues. She's just telling the story over and over and over. Like, yeah, okay, I woke up. Here's what happened. So, Ross shows up. He talks to Mary Peckham.

She fills him in on the whole thing again. He tries the doors. He knocks on the windows. He's yelling for them, nothing. Silence. Oh, it's so creepy. And it's getting worse and worse. As the hours go by, they are like, this is bad. There's nothing good on the inside of that house.

So Ross had keys in his pocket. Now I saw in some sources that he had an actual key to their house, but then I saw in other sources that like keyholes were not in keys were not like super unique back then. Like the technology wasn't there to make them as unique as they are now. So he had a key that happened to unlock their latch door. I feel like that makes sense. I feel like that's more yeah. Because it probably was like he was like oh maybe like I can try this one. I'm just gonna try that out of the key. I think that's what happened,

because I saw that in more sources. And while he was wasting all that time, like knocking on the windows, it's actually yelling. You literally took the words out of my mouth, because that's what I was thinking. I was like, also he would have just tried the key first. So it doesn't exist.

So he opens the door, and he walks into the parlor, and Mary's behind him, but she kind of just stays in the door way. She's like, I'm just, I'm no, I'm good. I'll be here if you need me. You let me know what's going on in there. He immediately notices that every single curtain was just covering the windows. All the windows are covered with extra curtains. Everything is blacked out in that house. It was pitch black. They said it looked unnaturally dark in that house. It was pitch black.

They said it looked unnaturally dark in that house. And somebody had made it a point to make it unnaturally dark in that house. That's so terrifying. And it was literally... So he was the one who entered the first bedroom on the first floor, which was off that parlor room. When he looked in, he said he could smell what he thought was death immediately. The air...

The warm air had wafted it around pretty harshly. Upon further inspection, he could make out two figures in one bed. They were covered by sheets, and there was clear blood stains that had formed around the heads of the figures. There was those blood on the walls that he could see quickly. He ran right back out the door.

Yeah, by. He ran right out out the door. Yeah, by. He ran right out to Mary who had not gone into the home. Like I said, she was just on the front porch. And when Ross came out onto the porch, he sat down, put his head in his hands, and he said something terrible has happened. And he immediately they called City Marshall Hank Gordon. And he arrived soon after. And he was definitely the guy to call, for sure. City Marshall Hank Gordon, he was the highest-ranking law enforcement officer in the town, but poor Hank was certainly not ready for this.

He was not used to walking on, like, ax murder massacre scenes. That was really not. Who is really? He wasn't even used to dealing with homicides. He wasn't used to working on even assaults. He was basically just a peace officer. He just kept the peace.

He kind of just was like, he didn't do a whole lot of aggressive detective work because the town was not an aggressive town. It was a dry town. He didn't even deal with drunks. It wasn't even like, he had to break up barfights or anything like that. Right. He didn't do anything. And so this must have been overwhelming for everybody,

but he must have been like shit. And that will be because it's all on him. This is all on me now, and I have to deal with this. So when he went into the downstairs bedroom, he saw the same scene, but he opened the curtain to let the light in. He didn't move the bloody sheets away to reveal the people underneath

because he figured he would do a one-sover first and not move any evidence. But it was clear that they were dead, and it was violent. It was apparent by the blood spatter that was all over the room. Oh yeah. He then saw the murder weapon right there.

The bloody rusted axe was leaning against the wall He then saw the murder weapon right there. The bloody rusted ax was leaning against the wall in that downstairs bedroom. It was very blunt as well, they said. Although it was bloody with hair and flesh still attached to it, it had also clearly attempted to be wiped down and cleaned. It was clear that somebody had tried to wipe it down. It was later positively identified as belonging to Joe more,

because his brother looked at it and said there was a very specific chip in the blade. That was very characteristic of his axe. So they were able to say yes, that was his. I don't think enough attention is really like brought to the fact that this killer came into this house without a weapon. Like killer came into this house without a weapon. Like, he came to the house without a weapon.

Yeah. So he didn't come to the, like, he didn't even come to the house with lights. He took a light that was there. He had no weapon to defend himself with. So they even knew the axe was in the shed, which would lead me to believe that they had been watching the family for at least some amount of time. Or maybe even knew them. Or knew them.

Or knew them. Or they were just risking it all and showing up hoping that this guy had an axe nearby that they could find easily. Or maybe they were going to use like a kitchen knife or something. So that's the thing. I don't even know because that doesn't seem like it would be, I mean, that's the thing. It's like there was eight people in this house. Yeah. There was six kids and two adults.

And it's like, that's a lot of people you have to subdue. And it seems like they went pretty systematically because as we'll get into it, they went straight to the adults first and took care of the adults and took care of Joe first very specifically. So then people think, were they waiting in the house? Was he hiding in a closet while they were in a church? Did you BTK it? Like it's, we don't know. It's like so many questions are unanswered, but I'm gonna try to like talk through them at least. But back to Hank walking through the crime scene. So he comes out of that first floor bedroom. He walks upstairs and he saw the master bedroom.

And when he let the light into that one as well, there was blood everywhere in that bat. It was on the ceiling, the walls, all over the beds were Joe and Sarah Moore lay dead under blankets as well. Later corner, Linquist, a lot of doctors and like several corners went into this crime scene. So like, there were many different people talking about what they

saw at the crime scene. It all matches up pretty clearly, but they did have like different interpretations of certain things, which is interesting. But corner link list determined via this blood spatter in their room, that the killer was very likely left-handed, or at least swung an axe like someone left-handed would, which is interesting to me. And that's gonna come back later too when they start talking about suspects. So, Sarah Moore and Joe Moore's heads

had literally been crushed in with such force and such violence that they were unrecognizable. I saw in a couple of sources that Joe Moore's eyes were just gone. Oh, like they did not exist anymore. Okay. Yeah. If you didn't know who lived in this house, they wouldn't be able to tell who these people were.

So the ceiling actually also showed a large, several large gashes that have been chopped into it. And this comes back later when we can piece together the scene. It was in this room that they also found another abandoned oil lamp on the floor without the chimney set up the same way. Oh, that's interesting. Almost like he had used one downstairs and left one upstairs to better see his way through the house. Because he had made it to the dark.

Yeah, but not cast a lot of light to wake people up. Right. Now, he went into the second bedroom upstairs and he saw three more beds. He could make out four bodies. One bed had two occupants in it. All of them were tiny and clearly children. Some were covered by bloody blankets. some were covered by bloody blankets, some

were covered by like jackets and stuff. It was odd. And when Hank left the home, he walked right up to Ross, who was still, you know, Joe's brother, who was still on the porch waiting for him. And he said immediately, my God Ross, there's someone murdered in every bed. And he told everyone outside not to let anyone in. So at least by the standards of 1912, they like quote unquote tried to secure that crime scene right away. Basically by him just being like, don't go in there.

And he failed of course. And it was completely trampled over by neighbors later. And everyone else that seems to always be the case with these girls. I would not want to go into a scene like that. Well, it's like the loss in murders and everything. It's like people just, we want to pretend that we are above it all, but people innately,

even in 1912, these prim and proper ladies and gents were checking it out. Walking through this ax murder house. But they rushed to go get Dr. J. Clark Cooper on scene and he arrived with Hank Horton around 8.45 a.m. Now meanwhile, word is spreading everywhere about this. Right. It's tight in it town. So far, in fact, that when Mrs. Sarah Stilinger called the morhome that morning again, because remember, she had called earlier and didn't get an answer. So she calls again.

She had to go through the operator because this is a time when you didn't just call for the phone. You had to be like, hello, I would like to talk to them and they would connect you. That's crazy to me. And it's like beyond the phone sometimes. So when she called the operator, the operator said to her, everyone in that house is dead. Oh! She's calling to check on her two kids,

and she's like, can you connect me to the more house? Like Sarah and... And she said, Joe Mori, everyone in that house is dead. Everyone in that house is dead. What a way to say that. Holy. Like, okay. Like, wow, talk about like a little incentive

to get her mad at them. I would say so. So, they entered the home together, the doctor and Hank, and they also had along with them at this point, Dr. Hugh, Dr. F.S. Williams, who was the first to examine the bodies and put together a time of death estimate, and Reverend Ewing, who was the Moore's Reverend,

and then Dr. Linquist, the county coroner, who came right after, So a lot of doctors and a reverend. It's like five doctors and a reverend walk into an ax-marter house. Like that's a bad joke. So they piece together, together, all of them piece together what happened the night before. Now after the initial inspection of the bodies and the scene, Dr. Williams actually came out of the house and he could see Dr. Williams actually came out of the house and he could see that like people were crowding around the house, neighbors were showing up, it was starting to become a circus outside, and he literally came outside and put his

hand up and said, don't go in there, boys, you'll regret it until the last day of your life. Oh yeah, that's the thing, like especially with this one, like why would you want to go in there? Like he was trying to be like, guys, I know this is what we do. At this time, I know that we all trample through crime scenes and look at dead bodies. I realize that it's 1912 and we do that. It's cool. But this is not the one. No. This is not the one. Don't do it. So, they first, when they went into the house,

they first walked into the downstairs bedroom again, so they could, like, because Hank was doing that initial, just taking a peek and seeing how many. Right. He didn't want to move anything or touch anything. Now, they're going to go over with a fine tooth comb. So, they walk into that downstairs bedroom where they found the brutally butchered bodies of eight or nine year old Ina stillinger and 11 year old Lena stillinger. They had both been killed with axplos to the head. Their heads had been reduced to nothing. Oh my god. It was determined that Ina, the younger one, had been killed first and Lena second in

that room. And it turns out that Lena was actually the last of everybody to die. Oh, but Lina was actually the last of everybody to die. Oh. But Aina's face was covered with a little boy's coat. Lina was in a strange position compared to everybody else. They determined that no one in the house likely woke up long enough to know what was happening. Everyone was pretty much taken out before they could even wake up.

At least there's that, I guess. Well, Sarah and Joe Moore were killed first to dispatch the adults right out the gate. So the person came into the house, either came into the house or came out of wherever they were hiding in the house and went straight to their bedroom. So they either walked right by that downstairs bedroom

and went straight to that bedroom, which is like, did you know that that was their bedroom? Like, how'd you just go start? Like, there's no light in that house. It's the middle of the night. It's pitch black outside. Yeah. How can you find that bedroom and find the adults first? Yeah. It's very strange, but they went right to the adults right out the gate and then they got the children after. But they were all killed quickly and brutally and found in the same positions. They were likely sleeping in. Okay. So it seemed like everybody was just boom, like killed while they were sleeping.

It's called sliebina. Lena, however, was found in an unsettling position. This is from the testimony Dr. Williams gave to a grand jury later. He said, quote, she lays though she had kicked one foot out of her bed sideways, with one hand up under the pillow on her right side. Half sideways, not clear over, but just a little. Apparently she had been struck in the head and squirmed down in the bed, perhaps one-third of the way. And it looked to me, probably, as though she may have been turned over that way after. She had possibly died, for the reason that the blood had run through the pillow onto the bed, and this arm had been rammed up in there

after the blood had run in there. So he believed she was the only one that woke up after what it happened and was aware of what was happening. What I think happened, because what he's saying is that her arm, her right arm was rammed up under her pillow and above her head, but blood had already pulled in that, into the sheet, through that pillow and into the sheet and not on her hand.

Right. So, they were like, did she ram it up there afterwards? What I think happened was she was pulled down the bed forcibly and her arm went up for the fourths of pulling down the bed. Yeah, sure. Because I think something pretty terrible happened there. I think he took special care with her. From the 1912 Velisca Axe Murder blog, which is actually an amazing, the research on that blog, I could not stop reading this blog. It's amazing. I will link it in the show notes because it deserves a lot of visits. She was found halfway down the bed on her right hip, but her upper body was rotated to be flat against the bed. So in a very weird position. So like

twisted. Yeah. Most unsettling is her underwear was removed and put under the bed. It was also bloody, but investigators determined it was likely bloody because the killer attempted to either clean himself or the ax with it. And her night gown had been pulled up above her waist. Her right arm and hand were raised above her head like we said and her hand was under the pillow. Now this blog points out that a lot of people who saw this said it looked like a defensive position like she was fighting back But the arm under the pillow was not soaked in blood like we said it was just laying in the blood

So it's more likely that he pulled her down the bed forcibly like I said after killing her with the axe and her arm just raised above her head and dragged, as it did. And I think it just probably flopped into that position. She was also splaid out with her leg spread, which seems purposeful. Because they also found a bloody smear that was definitely from the killer's hand on her inner thigh. They were identified first by their names and their Bibles found at the scene and because church members and their neighbors saw them leave church with the Mars that evening, otherwise they couldn't tell who

they were. Only by the names and their Bibles. And you said Lina was 11. 11. All doctors later said no one in the home had been raped. Okay. But they said Lina was very likely the victim of some kind of sexual assault. Yeah, I was gonna ask that. At least possibly after the fact she was the only one. That isn't that kind of weird to you. Very weird.

Yeah. Very weird to me. I don't know if he saw her, this person saw her earlier and then maybe he was at the church service. There's so many things I could, and the suspect that I will float at the end of this, that I, at one point was like, that's the guy, he did it. And I'm, now I'm like, I don't know,

he fits, but he doesn't fit at the same time. That was one of the things. He, he was at the church service, and he could have seen her, but I don't know. I just don't know. So they go further into the house after seeing Lena and Ina. And they noticed that Joe Moore did have the most damage inflicted on him.

This could possibly be a personal vendetta, or maybe because they wanted to make sure the father, who they probably thought was physically the biggest threat, was dispatched thoroughly. Right. You know, he was the only one of the family that was actually hit first with the sharp end of the axe. Everyone else was hit with the blunt end initially, and that's how they were hit first

and then chopped. I'm surprised that they could figure that out back then. Yeah, I know. Isn't it interesting? But he was hit so many times and with such force, that force, such force, that the killer actually left huge gashes in the ceiling above. That's what those gashes in the ceiling were. And then could they probably use that

to figure out like how tall this person was? But we're going to go into that a little bit. So he had actually, so this person had obviously swung the axe above his head, hit the ceiling and came down and done that several times. Which, here's the other thing that bothers me about that. If he was hitting the ceiling and hitting Joe. That would make a lot of noise. Right. And probably wake up the rest of the house.

But they said that they didn't wake up. But they said no one else woke up. But do you think that maybe they said that back then? I don't know. To ease everybody's minds. I don't think they were into easing minds back then. They were letting people trudge through a crime scene. I don't think they give a shit about anybody's,

you know, sentimental. Well, I mean, the dissolution too. But, you know, I think that's just like, they're like, don't come in here, guys. But like, I don't think anybody gives a shit about that. But, so then what would be the reason that they didn't wake up that in your mind? I don't know.

That's, maybe they have, like, well, there is one thing that could account for this and we'll get into it in a minute, but it makes sense to me more so that he wasn't hit first with the sharp side of the axe that he was also hit with that blunt side first, because I think he went around systematically hitting them with the blunt side. Doesn't make as much noise. Not a lot of chopping having to happen. You can just bonk, like, but you can crack someone's skull with the one side of a, it's gonna inflict a ton of damage.

And I think he went around doing that and then we'll find out later, I think he did go back and inflict more damage afterwards. Maybe when they were all either dead or unconscious. Which more so seems like a personal dead than like dispatching him. Because there's no way this guy swung that axe over his head first and then got everybody else.

So he had to do like a smaller chop first, which just makes it even weirder. It makes it even like this whole thing is just weird, but I don't know. But weirdly enough, they also found similar gouge marks in the ceiling of the kids' rooms upstairs, but not in the downstairs bedroom. And you were mentioning how tall they were. It might have been someone kind of on the short side actually, because the ceiling was low.

In an average size person would actually have trouble hitting the ceiling, like, actually like swinging that ax fully in there, without getting it like slamming into the ceiling. And this was according to the man from the train by Bill James, which is such a good book, and I'm gonna link it, and it's so good. It's such a good book. And he's a retired detective who like goes into this case and looks at it from

a detective's point of view from now and it's fascinating. Right. And I think he knows what happened. Like in that book, he floats a theory that and I'll talk about it in episode two that I think he I think his theory is the right one. Okay. And I think it's really well laid out. I highly highly recommend that book. I'll link it. But what we do know is that Joe was hit at least 30 times with that X, which is a lot of times to the head. Yeah. A lot.

Dr. Linquist, the coroner, said in a note, quote, Mrs. Moore's face was cut but recognizable. So what I saw in a lot of sources was that her face was like chopped into slices almost. Oh god. So she was like slightly recognizable by the standards of the rest of the house, which is like, yeah, very bad. He said, Mr. Moore's face was cut worse than hers.

The top of the skull was crushed and the face was cut. The eyes were gone and the cheeks was cut. The eyes were gone, and the cheeks were cut, but the cheekbones were not crushed in. Apparently Mrs. Moore's face had been cut in sections, is what they said. It almost looked like somebody had dissected, but not. It was like much like harsher than a dissection, but like how you would, or not how you would, how I would, like think somebody like, not somebody dissecting an organ with you after an evisceration, like you do the sectioning where you slice into little sections, that's kind of what her face was doing.

Now aside from Sarah and Joe Moore, there are four children, Herman, who was ten or eleven, Catherine, who was nine, Boy, Catherine, who was 9, Boyd, 7, and Paul, 5. Oh! We're in the room across them upstairs. During the same testimony, the corner said, quote, the children were all cut in about the same way. The tops of their heads were broken and crushed,

and it looked as if the brains had been chopped out by some instrument. Oh my God. Yeah. Now, when he entered the home, the killer had walked right past Ina and Lena and had gone straight to Joan's Sarah first. So he killed them with the street, the blunt side of the axe, went right to their four children and then he finished with Lena and Ina.

Now, after all we're dead in the house, we were just saying he went back upstairs and one by one, he literally axed their heads on their recognizable with the sharp side. So after he had systematically gone through that house and killed them all, essentially, because again, a blunt side of an axe is not like, don't, like, no, you're crushing someone's skull. That's a massive blow. Heavy metal. So he has definitely killed them all. Then he goes back up and he just demolishes everyone's face with the sharp side.

I think that he just like enjoyed seeing that. It could be either that or it can be I need to dehumanize them because of what I've just done. I need to dehumanize them because of what I've just done. Some, it can be, I don't know. It's like there's no real, you can go to like six different reasons for all of these things. None of them make any sense. And the coroner's literally said that everybody, each person individually, had been hit up to 20 times with that axe afterwards. So this was like frenzied and rage filled and just like animalistic.

And they were able to determine this through some pretty fascinating in my opinion usage of early forensic investigation. Like I love seeing in like the 1800s and early 1900s when they did shit that you're like, look at you. That's gonna get so much better. But like it's like good start. Good start for you guys. So Sarah's shoe was next to the bed on Joe's side of the bed. It had been filled with blood during the initial murder. It was because blood had saturated all the bed sheets and had run down the side of the bed into the shoe

and like filled it. But when they found it, it had been knocked over. and had run down the side of the bed into the shoe and like filled it. Great. But when they found it, it had been knocked over, and the blood had been spilled out of the shoe. And more blood was pouring onto the side of the shoe. This led them to see that the killer obviously came back upstairs accidentally knocked the shoe over before they inflicted more damage. Interesting.

Which I'm like, that's... No, that is... For you guys for figuring that out? Like more damage. Interesting. Which I'm like, that's for you guys for figuring that out. Like, wow. Now, some of the wounds were also in various stages of healing and coagulation, which was telling them like, you know, some time passed before this initial wound was caused,

and then a second wound was caused, that's in another stage of healing. Or coagulating. Right. Now, this person also would brought the sheets over everyone's faces or would put other things over their heads. Right. The sheets were brought up over Sarah and Jo's demolished faces. They put an undershirt over little hermins face, a dress over Catherine's face. They also covered Boyd and Paul with their sheets

or their blankets. And then they went downstairs and they covered Ina and Lena with covers. And based on Levitity, doctors and coroners agreed the murders definitely took place between midnight and five. So after covering everyone's faces, the killer had then walked around the home and put cloth over every mirror and every reflective piece of glass. I was waiting to get to that part because that part freaks me the fuck out. Which there can be a million different reasons for this.

A myriad. So he also used Sarah's skirt, which he ripped in half and put over two mirrors. And any reflective surface was covered in cloths. a skirt, which he ripped in half and put over two mirrors. And any reflective surface was covered in cloths. And he went, – And he went, – And he went,

– And he went, – And he went, – And he went, – And he went, – And he went, – And he went, – And he went, – And he went,

– And he went, – And he went, – And he went, – And he went, – And he went, – And he went, – And he went, – And he went, – And he went, I think this guy, so it's either, it was some kind of weird shame thing where he didn't want to see himself after what he'd done,

or he didn't want to see himself covered in blood, because it's not a humanity thing. It's like, because some people take that as like, no, he didn't have shame. It's like a weird psychological fucked up thing. That like some killers do this weird thing when they have this weird sense of like morality all of a sudden after they do something horrible, that morality is not real. It's just like a flicker of a flame of morality

and then they just go back and kill other people again. But I feel like it could have been that like, he had this weird sudden like, what have I done? You know, like, I'm gonna cover all these so I can't see myself. Or it could be that he didn't want anybody else to see, like through any of the windows or anything like that. But again, it was dark.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. But then there's also this was like Victorian times. And it's like all those funeral traditions are huge where like you cover mirrors when there's a dead body lying in wake in your house. Right. Because it's like a lot of things. Your mirror can't take the person's soul and stuff.

So it's like was that something with it? And they say that. Remember I think one of the things that you had said was like if you see yourself in the mirror, then you're the next one. So it's like was it something with these weird traditions? I just got chills, that breaks me out. Right?

I fucking ate that. It could have been any of that stuff. So it's like, you don't know if he was like religious. I just keep puncturing something. I just keep puncturing this guy, like walking through the house and like covering the mirrors. Oh yeah, look at my arms right now. Oh, and he did more.

He didn't just cover the mirrors. I know. He didn't just cover the mirrors. So next to the ax, which was sitting in the room that Lena and I know were in, leaning and sitting on next to the wall, next to the axe, there was a two pound slab of raw bacon that was wrapped in some kind of like cheese cloth

or linen or something like that. And it was removed from their ice box. Like, there was more of that bacon in their ice box. And it was on the floor in Lena and I know it's a room. Now, if you have any idea what that means? Unfortunately, yes. Some sources, including a nightmare in Velisca by Richard E. Step, which is another great book that I will link.

They say investigators theorized, and this is going to be tough to hear, that he used this bacon to masturbate with, as it was found in Lena. And Eina's guest room in Lena was posed sexually with her underwear removed and clothing pulled up. Yeah, because they cannot figure out why else that would be in there, why was it in their room? Bacon? Like a slab of bacon. Like I get it.

Yeah. Okay, we can move on now. Yeah, but that is a very strange thing that no one can figure the fuck out why. That's two pound slab of bacon was just slapped on the floor in one of the rooms. Imagine the first person to float around the idea that it was like to masturbate with.

They were definitely like, so what do you, what, why are you thinking that? Like that poor guy was probably like, here's the thing. I've never done it. I have not done it, but I'm just thinking out of the box here and they're like, out of the box, are you sure you're not thinking of your box, dude? Like, what is in your box?

That's scary. I mean, here's the thing, like, I don't want to get like really into this, but like, it makes sense. It really does, unfortunately. I mean, this person was fucked up behind beyond anyone's wildness dreams. Yeah, obvious. So it makes sense that he would masturbate

with a two pound thing of raw bacon. Okay, I need to remove. And then just remove. And he left it next to the ax, which is like, what is that symbolize? There's gotta be something here. I don't know. And there was more bacon in the ice box.

You just took out this two pounds. What, you wrapped it in cheesecloth? What's going on? He wrapped it in cheesecloth. Or in like linen, like some kind of like very thin fabric to hold it probably. Yeah. Which is her idea to move on.

I need to get on. I need to get on. I need to get away from that. So there was also like random things, like parts of a key chain that didn't belong to the more family found on the floor. After he had brutally butchered an entire family, including six children and their guests in their sleep,

the killer then filled a bowl with water and washed his hands in it and left the water out with the bloody water in it. He like took his time. He hung around, he told her. He had her words. There was even a plate of food on the table that he-

Golden take killer. Golden take killer. Like, he just had a snack. It wasn't until 5am that he left and he left that lamp at the top of the stairs and he locked all the doors behind him. What? One, how did he lock the last one?

They think that he locked the last one because there was a key in that, in that keyhole that either Sarah or Joe had left in the key hole. Oh, freaking. Which because I think they did that back then, they would just leave the key would just be sitting in that thing

because they didn't even use it. Yeah, they don't give a shit. So I think he just used that key. Okay. Now, after seeing what they saw in the home, all the corners and, you know, poor Hank, they went to the other buildings All the corners and poor hank, they went to the other buildings on the property because now we have to see what the fuck's in there.

There's like barns and shit, is there anything in there? Yeah. And there was a shed and a barn. And in the barn, they found a little, some interesting things. They saw haybills, which is not weird because it's a barn. Correct. But they saw that they were stacked on each other

in a weird way. The hay veils. Yeah, like a couple of them were moved and stacked in a weird way that just didn't seem right. And so they looked closer and they saw that there was a clear depression on the top of the hay, like a man or some human had been lying in it for a while. Yeah.

There was an outline of an actual human and next to this outline and strange haystack was a hole cut in the side of the barn. And this hole allowed whoever looked through it to see the entire property and in most of the windows to see the goings on inside the house. I literally hate that more than I hate anything in the entire world. So now there was this person just laying on a haystack watching this whole house. That's not even a question like obviously why the fuck else would that be there? I don't know. No like that's like I don't care that's yeah. Because the whole they said could have been like a

knot in the wood that was just happened to be there in the right place. It's a perfect place. You know it was one of the kids playing on top of the haybales. Like, it could have happened. No. It could have happened. No. I'm just saying. I didn't. I'm just saying.

It was the man's. It was the man's. No, other people think the killer broke into the home earlier while the family was at church and did a BTK, like we said, hidden a closet or the attic and waited to attack in the middle of the night. Well, yeah, but like, I think even both of those things that happened. of those things that he was watching and then when they left, he snuck in. And then he figured, and that's how he figured out the rooms. Exactly.

Now there were footprints in one of the children's closet substrates. I'm leaving. Yeah, I'm, I know, like I'm vacating. Yeah, like I want, I also wanted to get the hell out of here. But also like why do we have to do this at night right now? I know, I'm really sorry. I, like, I apologize.

I apologize. I apologize. I also watched Halloween kills last night. So it was a good, I'm really sorry. I apologize. I apologize. I'm not going to sleep. I also watched Halloween kills last night, so. It was a good. I've heard very bad things about it, and it's upsetting me. I don't think you're going to like it. That's the same thing. But I'm not saying that it's bad.

All right, I'll give it a shot. And I need to watch it again. Okay, cool. I'll give it a shot. But, other way, anyway. So, yeah, there were children, there were footprints in the children's closet upstairs. I don't, cool. I'll give a shot. But other way. So yeah, there were children, there were footprints in the children's closet upstairs. I don't know if I, so I personally don't know if I believe that they were waiting in the house already. Why is that?

And a lot of experts don't believe that either. I'm a fucking expert at this point. And I'm a fucking expert. I am now a Velisca Axmerter expert. It's not on a recipe. I'll fucking expert. I'll fucking expert of the Velisca Axmerters. So for, I think that would be very risky. There's a lot of people in that house. There's going to be a lot of commotion

putting kids to bed and shit. Yeah. The odds that they wouldn't be caught in that silent ass house, in that they would have to stay like dead silent until everyone in that house was asleep. Yeah. That's a lot of people to account for to make sure everybody's asleep. Yeah.

And then like to come out of a closet or out of an attic unnoticed, yeah. Like I don't know. That doesn't ring to me like super probable. But do you think the footprints, like, could have literally just been like, because you put your shoes on the closet? I literally think that could have just been footprints from somebody going into the closet to get something or whatever. I think sure somebody could be who could have been watching from the barn.

For sure. That's totally fine. I do think someone entered the home later that night. Yeah, I think they entered at some late hour and started their shit. But because realistically, they wouldn't even need to hide in the closet because it's not like they needed to get in at a certain point because that's when the door was going to be open or anything like that. Because it's like the door was always open.

Right. They were always going to be able to get in. And they knew that because they were laying on that hay watch. And that's the thing. I feel like they had to know the routine here a little bit. So fucking hate this. Yeah, it's pretty terrible. So as investigators went back and forth between the scene and the precinct and like town

buildings and such to try to get more experts and all that, they tasked like one guard to keep watch of the scene. And they said, dude, don't allow anyone in here except for law enforcement. Direct quote. Direct quote, dude, don't. My dude, don't let anyone else in here besides law enforcement. He was like, get it.

He failed miserably. Over 100 neighbors, members of church and friends entered that house that day at one point or another. Tisk, Tisk on them because what is wrong with you? Like your friends, what are you doing? You want to see AX Murder Children? That's the thing. Oh, it gets worse.

They took things. Yeah. They touched things. They fucked up everything. Someone took a piece of Joe Moore's skull. Yeah, that is a lot for my brain too. That's the most. That's the most. That's the absolute most. And do we think that way you're gonna ask? Yeah, do we think that it was the person that did this? I do not. You don't. No. I think they took it when they went back in.

Because they displayed it later. Like, they thought it was cool. That's a lot. I think, because that was one thing that I thought too. I was like, oh, wait, no, I don't think it was. When you find out who it was, you're like, yeah, I don't think so. Oh, okay. But, and I'll talk about him probably an episode too.

Why would you want that? I don't know, cause that's too much. Fondage. That's haunted. That's literally a, that's haunted. That's a recipe for varying ghosts. That's a curse right there. Yeah, hello, hex.

It's not a recipe, that's the full one curse. That's literally, it's baked. It's out of the oven, it's fully cooked. You just cursed yourself. You can frost it, you can call it a cake, it's a hex cake. You've been hexed by your own self. That's just a white action.

It's your actions of cursed deal. Yeah, that's no good. And you deserve it, man, that's bad. Yeah. But what happened was they all go in there. Now fingerprints are everywhere. They've smudged any fingerprints that they had of this guy. They've added fingerprints onto things.

It's fucked up. So by noon, they had finally officially cordoned off the crime scene, but the damage was already done. Also, here's the other thing. Why would you put one guy in charge of this place? For the whole crowd, I know. I know, they were just like you. And then everybody probably blamed him.

And that's not fair. Like definitely was not. Like Steven is just tasked with keeping everybody out and like Steven is like, He's like, I'm just Steven. I'm just Steven. It was actually just like a farm hand for industry. And he's like, I was milking my cow

and I was not prepared for this. I'm literally just Steven. He's like, I was milking my cow and I was not prepared for this. I'm literally just steven. He's like, I'm not a fucking expert on my resume. So my resume says, Steven. My resume says, I'm busy that day. So I don't know what to do here. My resume says, milk's cows. Well, and they finally officially cordoned off the scene,

but people were still getting in, even when it was cordoned off. It was a completely compromised crime to talk to the tape. Well, like a lot of them would talk their way in, or they would distract one of them, and like somebody else would go, it was a fucking mess. I don't want to go in there, though. Yeah, it's a real wreck. Now, bloodhounds were brought in, and they were actually famous bloodhounds, apparently,

which I didn't even know that there was famous bloodhounds, but apparently there are. I think I did know that from like another case. I was going to say, there was another case where there was bloodhounds apparently which I didn't even know that there was famous bloodhounds but apparently there are. I think I did know that from like another case. I was gonna say there was another case where there was bloodhounds that were famous. That were famous. Damn it. Now I want to remember the case that was. Oh, it was the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders.

You're right. Yeah, another very awful case. Terrific. But yeah, they were well respected to be the finest at finding what they were brought into finals. Good dog rules. They failed here. But yeah, they were well respected to be the finest at finding what they were brought in to find. Good doggo. They failed here, but you know. But I think they're track record of in this one.

Well they probably failed here because there's like 82 gazillion. I think they were. I don't think they were. They had their work cut out for them. Yeah, like fuck that. They were called the Beatrice bloodhounds and they were brought in all the way from Beatrice Nebraska. Why were they named Beatrice though?

Yeah, I don't know. I couldn't figure that out. I looked everywhere't know. I couldn't figure that out. I looked everywhere. Yeah, I couldn't figure it out. So sometime around 9 p.m., that they were actually brought in. Sometime around 9 p.m., because time is a flat circle in this case. It's not. It's truly time is not real in this case.

Oh, it's not. Because everyone's just like what position is the sun in? But, uh, retrograde. Yeah. Retrograde. That's it. No, I don't think so. But they were brought in at 9 p.m. and they were brought to the scene. They were brought in to smell the acts. They got a scent immediately. They started going out the door down the street. They were like on the scent. They went close to a man named Frank Jones's home. We will talk about Frank Jones in episode two, but they kept going, they kind of just like stopped

in front of his house and were like, no. And then they just kept going, but very weird. She would see her face, she'd like squinted her eyes for a second, like, my, no, no, no, maybe, no, that was really funny, though. Yeah, they were just like, oh, what? They, they, no, no, no, no, no, maybe, no, that was really funny, though. Yeah, they're just like, oh, what did they, no, no, no, no, no. They just kept going and they went all the way to the not-away river before losing the scent at the banks of that river. So do we think, like, someone just like treps to their river?

They don't know, because then they brought them to the other side of the river, thinking maybe the scent will pick up over there if the person went across, but nothing was picked up over there. Maybe they swam to the end of the river, thinking maybe the scent will pick up over there if the person went across, but nothing was picked up over there. Maybe they swam to the end of the river. Maybe they, maybe their wagon was lost forging the river. A la Oregon Trail. Oregon. Oregon Trail. I'll call the actual place Oregon if you want me to, like I'll do that for you. Oregon Trail is Oregon Trail. And they tried to fake it, like they weren't.

And you know what's crazy? Oregon Trail? You did me dirty. You did me dirty. Like Oregon Trail came for me. I remember as a wee one sitting in the computer room because we had a computer room. We were like those bitches.

Oh yeah. This girl across from me right now played hours and hours of your game, or a gone trail. I was, he really wronged her. Hell yeah. I was bartering at the general store. I was avoiding dysentery at every turn.

I was like, can we go on my space? And she was like, no. Or I was the younger one being like, can we go on my space? Like, can we aim chat your friends? No. What's Debbie doing? No, and you know what, I told John

about that whole thing that like, Oregon Trail did me dirty? Yeah. And he was like, no. He was like, every teacher told us it was Oregon Trail. So don't blame just blame Massachusetts in the education system because we were all told it was Oregon Trail.

Also, I'm just gonna like throw this in the middle of this episode. Dialect is a thing. Dialect is a thing like in England, in different parts of England, they say different words, they say the same words differently. Which is regional because it's dialect.

We all say things different. But anyways, the Vlaska experters. But no matter what, somebody obviously did not forge the river to safety on the other end. Yeah, I don't even know that. Because the bloodhounds lost the scent, they did not pick it up on the other end, and that was it. So, many people were arriving on the scene even from out of town at this point.

It was spreading everywhere. And apparently, according to Veliska by Roy Marshall, another book I read on this, that's really good that I will link. Books! Books! the list got by Roy Marshall another book I read on this that's really good that I will link books books The hotels were booked within the two days after the bodies were discovered because so many people were coming into town You know, it's like hilarious. I was like wow hotels were a thing back then like in's basically like you know I'm like hotels. Yeah motels. Yeah holiday holiday. Yeah Hardware stores were sold out of locks.

People were buying guns. It was families would take turns staying awake at night to guard their loved ones, kind of like the Axeman of New Orleans. It gave me those vibes like real hard. We might mention him again. Yeah, no jazz here. But June 12th, a couple days later, was the memorial and funeral for the eight victims.

They were initially brought by morticians to the local firehouse to be taken care of, and they were displayed there in their coffins for mourners to pay respects. They were displayed. Displade is like, morticians did what they could, but why don't they would actually, like I think they were maybe just like

the coffins display. Okay. But the whole town shut down and apparently the mayor actually ordered businesses to close for the day. That's true. I would have done that if I was mayor. Yeah, it was like that's real badass of you.

Yeah, like, I mean, I don't know if all the businesses appreciated that, but like it was a nice thought. It's one day, you know? So the day before the murders were now being looked at to see if anything was out of the ordinary before this happened. They were like, we got to go back now. We got to look at the events leading up to this. Sure.

Now many people did say there was an unusually high number of peddlers in town that day. Salesman going door to door. A woman named Ethel Landers because of of course Ethel knows what's up. Ethel Landers knows, and she was at her mother-in-law's home across from the Moore's house that day, and there were two wallpaper cleaning salesmen, which like wallpaper cleaning. Hello 1912. Yes. Also imagine just people showing up at your door, selling you things. No, it's a fucking nightmare. Like somebody came to my door the other day about solar panels and I was like, how dare you?

Get out of here. How the fuck dare you? Get the fuck out of here. Eat yourself off. I'm gonna hop on you for the rest of your life now. But yeah, two wallpaper cleaning salesmen actually were going door to door. They spoke to her husband. They were later seen at the mors and around town a lot,

so people immediately were like, who were those guys? I think they were just wallpaper cleaning stuff. That's my point. A man also tried to peddle something to Sarah Moore's sister, Fay that day, and asked her something inappropriate. I was not able to find out exactly what was inappropriate. It was probably like, I don't even know.

It was probably something not inappropriate by today's standards. Yeah, it was probably like, I don't even know. It was probably not inappropriate by today's standards. Yeah, it was probably so very old in the US, but literally it was probably how old were you. But Sarah said the same man approached her as well and had passed by the more home a couple of times that day. She mentioned it to her sister. Okay, so there's that.

That's weird. Now interestingly, a lot of people like to mention that it was also weird that Mary Peckum are wonderful Mary, the neighbor, didn't hear anything the evening of the murders. Back then shit was quiet. She said, quiet. Well, do we know, like, I'm sure you don't know exactly how far, but like... She was pretty close.

That house was pretty close. I wonder where her bedroom was in relation. Well, like, you know, it's like windows are open. Usually they're not very like insulated at that point. Yeah. And it's like eight people were massacred in a house. I feel like some noise had to be made. But then it's like, especially after they were all dead,

he went to town in that house. Yeah, I know. That was a lot. And he chopped up into the ceiling. After they were dead, he swung that axe hard enough to hit the ceiling several times. That was gonna make a donk, donk, donk, donk, donk. Like, but I do wonder how big her farmhouse was

and where her bedroom was. Here's the thing. Mary was a little older by those standards. Right, maybe she couldn't even hear. I don't believe she... I don't wanna believe she heard anything. If she did, what was she thinking it was? First of all? Is she gonna thought it was thought it was.

And what is she gonna come out swinging in the middle of the night? What is she gonna do? Like she might have just been freaked out and was like, I don't know what that noise is. I'm just going back to sleep. Yeah. She wasn't hearing screaming because no one screamed.

Well, that's the other thing. And like maybe she's a deep sleeper. So all she was going to hear was maybe I do believe she could have definitely heard the banging from the gouging and the ceiling. But you don't know what the fuck that is. If I heard that in the middle of the night, I'd be like, what is somebody doing? Okay, good night. If you're not here. I was going to say she might have thought it was her air conditioning turkey gone Wait a second probably not

She's like wait a second is that the AC? Sometimes when my AC turns on it does like a little like a good don't don't do I mean, I'm sure it's just like whatever There was pipes back then, eh? That was but it was pipes, eh? Yeah, was there? I'm sure it was sopes. Pipes clink in the middle of the night. I just, I just, I just, I just, I just love Mary. I know she loved and here's the thing. Mary was described as a grandmother to those children. Like that's how much she loved those kids.

She was said to be unbelievably traumatized by this whole thing. She actually passed away only months later. Oh, from like probably a broken heart and like the stress of it all. And so I found one of the parts of her obituary and it said Mrs. Mary Mallory Peckham, wife of Orlando Peckham, of this city

died at Bozeman, Montana, Thursday, December 12th, 1912 at 10.45 in the morning after lingering illness. The cause of death is directly attributed to Anemia and followed a nervous breakdown, which was greatly aggravated by the tragedy in Bolesca last June. Mrs. Peckham lived next door to the J.B. More family and was the first to semize that a tragedy

had been enacted there. The awful affair so preyed upon her mind that health gradually failed her. On the 3rd of December 1912 Mrs. Peckham was taken to Montana and the hopes that her condition might be a mellery I don't know what that word is, I usually know words meaning so I don't know what that means. Her daughter Mrs. ECU in Sun EL Peckham and Dr. hue accompanying her, but all that loving hands could do was of no avail. She died at the age of 63 years, seven months, and 11 days.

Wow. So she died months later in the attributed directly to a nervous breakdown from dealing with this. And like her mind couldn't handle it. I mean, imagine she's probably like, for the rest of the days after the murder, like thinking about going around that farm feeding those animals And what was like behind her in the house? It was just sitting there right she had no idea like what is that?

Dude and she was sleeping right next door She had to know forever that that person entered that home while she slept next door right was just creeping around outside Killing children in the middle of the night and she had no idea. It was like when she considered her own like surrogate grandchildren exactly. I just wanted a clear Mary Peckham's name and case anybody wanted to be like, why didn't she hear anything?

I mean realistic also, like we really think Mary Peckham was like swinging an axe. No, I think Mary Peckham was doing, I love Mary Peckham. I would think she was a great neighbor. She was a neighbor we should all have. Yeah, agreed. So I'm gonna talk about one suspect before we end here.

Okay. Because I wanna get this suspect out of the way because I was totally convinced he was the guy at first. And then now you're not. He's a good suspect, so I will say. His name is Reverend Lynn George Jacqueline Kelly. A Rev, a Rev. And like, am I related to him?

And now he was a preacher and he went by like Reverend Boba Barberrach. Sure. He was also a known creeper extraordinaire. He was, he was British and he literally was a sexual predator. Oh. I only said he was British like not to be like,

he was British and a sexual predator. I was like, nobody like he was British, he was not from Velisca. Yeah, yeah. So like he was well known because they were like, ooh that accent, you know what I mean? Like he was definitely known. Sure. But he happened to also be a sexual predator. Thank you for coming.

I was gonna say I don't want to, I don't want to trip. You're like, you're like, thank you for being clear. Thank you for clearing. Because I clearly thought you meant that. Well, not clear. You know, I just like, well, you know, I love my British people. So what you'd know that I think I'm a little bit British. We are. So, you know, I love us.

So people also said he was like a little, you know, mad at times and that he was kind of like a scary man to be around, even mad as and like angry. Mad as and like, woo, oh, but even he was like a smaller man too. He was five to one hundred and nineteen pounds. And they thought that the guy could have been shorter. Thank you. He was from Macedonia, which was 40 miles away. That's where he lived.

Okay. The night of the murders though, he had been in Valiska. Wow. And not only that, he had been visibly in attendance at the Children's Day service held at the Presbyterian Church that was organized by Sarah Moore. And he was he in Velisca because he was going to that? Yep, okay.

The entire more family and Lena and I in a cylinder were there, like I said, and would have been very visible throughout the entire service. Because Sarah was the one who worked actually and the kids were all a part of it. People said he was there and that he was watching them. So he was in Velisca the night of the murders and said of his own volition also that he left by dawn

on a train before the bodies were discovered the next day. Like ran out of town before dawn. Why? Jumped on a train. Why? No idea. When he left and caught the train around 5.20 am, Oh, okay. Which is, uh, right outside of the time that the body, that the family was murdered, he spoke to an elderly couple on the train.

And that later said they remembered him and that he had told them, did you hear about that horrible ax murder in Belisca of that whole family? Which is weird because this is ours before the bodies were discovered and before the news spread. Do you think they was lying? But later that couple changed up their story a little bit. They said they, he definitely said that. They said they did see him on a train. He did say that, but they couldn't be positive of the date. And they were elderly. So people were like, they might have forgot. Okay. But he said that he hopped on the train that day. He said he hopped on the train that day, but it could have been another day that

he talked to these because the list goes like a big railroad town. So people came in and out of this town on the train all the time. Okay. Still weird that he left at 5.20 am. Super weird. The morning of the murders, we can't be sure one way or another, whether he talked to the elderly people that morning or another day, like after. Initially, they said it was that morning, but they pulled it back.

I don't know if they got intimidated or what, but or they could have been wrong. So there's that. Exactly. Now, he was also caught peeping in windows in Velliscah two days before the murders because he was a peeping Tom as well. And this was in Velliscah that he was caught peeping in windows. And he was basically caught by like the husband of somebody's of like a wife that was peeped on and he almost got the shit Beat out of him for it. He should have now. He came back to Velliska a week after the murders and was said to be obsessed with them. It was so obsessive that he even posed as a

Scotland yard detective to get access to the crime scene. Oh, and it worked yard detective to get access to the crime scene. Oh, and it worked. Because he just pretended he was from Scotland yard and they let him into the crime scene and gave him a personal tour of the crime scene. That's weird because like, was he trying to relive the crime? Exactly. He also hounded investigators in the case saying he knew what happened. Of course he wanted to tell them about it.

He was also left handedhanded. In fact, you think it was him? In fact, later, he was kind of under surveillance of some kind, and they watched him swing in acts in his backyard cutting wood, like, because people cut wood all the time. Yeah. They like that, wasn't we? He had an axe. He had an axe in 1912. But he was like, he could swing in acts, because people are like, you know, he was under 1912. But he was like, he could swing an axe. Because people are like, you know, he was under 19 pounds, could he really like swing that axe that hard? He could, they watched him do it.

And he swung it left-handed with zero trouble. He also sent bloody clothing to the dry cleaners in Macedonia after the murders. Nothing was really done about him for a little while. Do you think that he would have sent like the bloody clothing, because wouldn't that clothing be like saturated? For sure, but there's also the thing that like,

he's kind of loopy. So like maybe that's something he just wouldn't give a shit about, it was just sentiment. He was arrested two years after the murders in 1914 for something else. He was arrested because he placed an advertisement for a female stenographer in a local newspaper. What's a stenographer? A stenographer is like a typist. Thank you.

Somebody to trans like transcribe things. It was a disgusting thing that he wrote back to this woman. So he placed the advertisement in it. He said he needed, you know, a female stenographer couldn't be a male in that they had, they were gonna be working on something confidential and that sometimes they would have to pose as a model.

But like that was like what? And he set up for like clients or something, so he made it seem like it was part of this whole thing. And this woman, Jessamine Hodgson, answered the ad. And his response back to her was a typed letter that according to a judge later was, quote, so obscene, lood, lascivious, and filthy as to be offensive to this honorable court and

improper to be spread upon the record thereof. Whoa. He wrote in it that she would be required to type in the nude. Oh. Mm-hmm. He was institutionalized at that point. He was put in a hospital. And then released at one point where they, and once he was released, they were now just starting to pick up on all this evidence,

all the individual pieces that were like, huh, in Velisca. Wait a second, let's go back to that Velisca business and see what that's all about. Like, just now they're realizing like, wait a second, he's a little off. Right. Now, in 1917, he was arrested and charged with just the murder of Lena Stillinger.

He was asked about the more murders and he confessed. And he signed a confession that he did it. He said, quote, I killed the children upstairs first and the children downstairs last. I knew God wanted me to do it this way. Slay utterly came to my mind. And I picked up the axe, went into the house, and killed them. Now later, he recanted this confession, saying he had been like beaten into that confession, which is very likely. I would think so. There's no, that was my first thought actually. Now, here's the thing, that doesn't necessarily

make it a false confession. Right. But it is a coerced confession, because in it, he does say he killed Lena last, and that bodes well with the idea that he killed the children first. Is that in that he wanted to possibly sexually assault her and killed the whole house to do that last.

Also, she was killed last, so we know that's correct. Like he said, I went upstairs, I killed them first, and I killed the downstairs, that's true. Why would he know that? But do you think that like word might have spread? That's the thing, so much shit happened in so many people when it went inside during investigations. So many people were probably hearing investigators talking about

shit that they shouldn't have been hearing. And he posed as a Scotland yard detectives. So I'm sure they very well could have told him that. Exactly. So I'm sure he's had this whole thing. He's heard the whole song and dance about what happened. So I'm sure he could have just been spitting out what he knew. Right. I'm like, it could be true. It could be false.

It's either way. I think it was definitely coerced. So I can't really look at it as like a real one. But also, he was staying the night, the night that he was staying in Veliska that the murders happened. He was staying with another reverend or preacher. And that man was actually staying in a tent

in his own yard that evening because he was sick. And people used to do that back then if they were like, it's nice. Sick with like a respiratory illness. They would stay in a tent, almost like a tuberculosis patient or something. But just for any respiratory or illness, they would just get fresh air outside. So they would sleep in a tent. So this man who you staying with is sleeping outside. So he didn't really have anyone that could

technically say that he was in that house all night, because that guy wasn't in the house all night. Now, it did go to trial. This was the only one that went to trial, and he was freed when the jury was hung. Wow. And it was hung 11 to 1. So 11 people wanted to acquit him, and only one was stuck. Wow. Because people did believe that that's from a court. Interesting. So they did another trial,

because it was a hung jury, and they all acquitted him. He was acquitted and freed. I wonder why. Yeah. I think people didn't believe that confession, I think. But it's, he's definitely, like, he's not, not a shitty suspect.

To me, he's not totally ruled out, but I think it was a serial killer. Yeah, I mean, the pr... I think it was a serial killer. I don't wanna say somebody that had practice, but they did. I think they had plenty of prior experience in this. So I think it was a serial killer

and I am going to tell you exactly why in part two. Awesome. But that is part one of the Veliska experters. I have to tell you, the way that you put this together was like I was hanging off to every last word. Like that was really, I don't want to say that was really good, but like the way you told it was really good. Thank you.

I appreciate that. Because there's so much information that I wanted to make sure it was in there and it's like, I was like, I hope this makes sense. Yes, that was wild. It's a fascinating thing. No, but absolutely. Well, the thing is, I've heard it told so many different times.

I felt like that was... It didn't seem like the same story. I love that, thank you. Of course. What a compliment. I would literally, like I was telling Ash earlier, I was like, I want to do a full-ass podcast, like several episodes, just fucking diving into this. Just like a separate show.

Yeah, just like, I just want to go nuts. I want to do a Shepard show. I'm sure for sure. I want to do a separate show on something totally different. But, I'll tell you about that. Sometimes later. Maybe it'll come to fruition later. Fresh, fresh, and we should leave now.

Maybe it'll come to fruition later. How are you gonna we should leave now. Maybe it'll come to fruition later. How are you gonna shop for shashgai? Come to fresh, I'd ask. It's really late guys. It's been a long day. But stay tuned for part two. It's coming in a couple of days, so it'll go on. Hey.

I just gotta get the rest of it together. And in the meantime, we do hope that you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. But that's where you lay a top of barrel of hay and you look through a little people thingy out of family while they're doing their whole family shindig and you say, I'm gonna kill that family and you go in there and you act every single one of them

and you have a candle and you cut the candle and have because that's super rare, why do you even cut the candle and have it like the bacon, the bacon, don't keep it so weird that the bacon, I'm leaving, goodbye. Don't keep it so weird that the bacon I'm leaving. I'm leaving goodbye. Don't keep it so weird that the bacon. Just don't. Hey, Prime members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey

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