Morbid - Episode 272: The Villisca Axe Murders Part 2

Episode Date: October 20, 2021

In part two of The Villisca Axe Murders Alaina goes DEEP into the many suspects involved in the case. We’ve got a lot of crazy characters this time around. Turns out Josiah Moore had a mistress who was linked to one of his enemies, there’s also a detective who turns up with nefarious intentions, and finally blame gets shifted to a potential serial killer in the area. And of course to finish things off we’ll get into the haunting of the home which includes a pretty recent life threatening event. The Man From The Train by Bill James  A Nightmare in Villisca by Richard Estep  Villisca by Roy Marshall  The 1910s Axe Murders by Beth H. Klingensmith <~~Great Thesis on case! Getting the Axe blog  The 1912 Villisca Axe Murders blog  As always, thank you to our sponsors: Scribd: Right now, Scribd is offering our listeners a FREE 60-day trial!  Go to try.scribd.MORBID for your free trial! GoodRX: For simple, smart savings on your prescriptions, check GoodRx. Go to GoodRX.com/morbid Upstart: Find out how Upstart can lower your monthly payments today when you go to UPSTAR.com/MORBID MVMT: Join the MVMT and get 15% off today — with FREE SHIPPING and FREE RETURNS — by going to MVMT.com/MORBID See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's ANGI, or download the app today. Hey, weirdos. I'm Alena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. Ooh. Ooh. Here we are. Hello there, friends and pals across the nation.

All of you. All you ghouls. What's up? What's the ghouls? So before we jump into our case today, which is the second part of the Veliska Axe murders, which could have been the second part of about 16 if I was allowed to keep going, but I just, I had to stop myself because I came over that other morning and Alina just literally had like paper

shuffled in her she's like I could make this 10 parts if I wanted to keep her eyes just switch her like don't please please don't because you know what someday I do want to make this like its own podcast well that's why so say you know what someday I'll do it but but for, I'll give you what I got. But before we get to that, there's some pretty crazy true crime news that came out that blew my mind a little bit. Wah.

So I don't know, we have not covered this case. I don't know if we will cover this case because it involves a child and you know how I feel about that. But it's a very big case. I'm sure most people in True Crime have heard of it. It's the case of the killer is Eric Smith. He was 13 when he killed a four-year-old Derek Robbie. He did this when was it? What year was it? It was in 1994. It was horrific. Derek was four.

He was sexually abused afterwards. It was a horrific crime. Yeah, horrific. To say the least. And obviously, Eric Smith has been in prison. He's now 41 years old. He's gone in front of the parole board, I think 11 times and been denied each time. He's being released.

Yikes. He's going to be, he could be released on November 17th. And you would change their mind the 12th time. Yeah, I'm curious. I want to, I kind of want to know what everybody else thinks too because I am very conflicted and apprehensive. Of course, he was a child when that happened. I would like

to think that he is a different human being now at 41 years old. He has a clear disciplinary record in prison. Sometimes that can indicate that there's growth there. But on the other side of that, this is a horrific crime. And also, the Derek's parents are horrified. And obviously have been fighting to keep him in prison, which I am fully on their side with. Yeah. It's a tough one, because it's gonna, it brings forth that whole child offender thing.

And right, are you that same person? I am not the same person at 13. That's exactly heavy debate. But I also didn't murder someone at 13, which is a totally different personality issue there. Exactly. So it's like it's a very strange subject. I've seen so many different takes on it and I'm just curious to see how everybody else

feels about it. I'm very apprehensive and I'm very conflicted. I can't. I can say I have five year olds in a two year old, and I personally would be like, you should stay in there. Yeah, I don't really feel that conflicted about where I'm at right now. I'm conflicted because there is that piece where do children deserve to be in prison

for the rest of their lives when they got out? Yeah, I met a crime when they're a minor. That's a huge issue. I think, of course it is. I think it depends on a lot of factors. And I think it's not black and white. No, well, yeah, exactly. And I think you have to look at a case by case.

And I think if you're capable of murdering a four-year-old, no matter what age you are, that's like a little scary. Yeah, I mean, to say the very least. Well, it's like the Maddie Clifton case. Joshua Phillips was super young when that happened. And that was one of those things too that now he's trying to convince people that he's changed and the law has got changed,

saying that you couldn't be sentenced to life imprisonment. With no possibility of parole when you're a minor. And it's been a huge, like bone of contention, like nobody can agree on it, but it's so weird, because you'll read certain things and you research about it,

and you look at the psychology of it. You look at the real basic scientific facts of the human brain at different points of the novel. Well, specifically the fact that your frontal lobe was developed, so I can see that side of it. And that's the part where you look at it, and you say, yeah, children in prison for the rest of their lives does seem crazy. But then when you look at the

crime itself, you're like, I want you to be in prison for the rest of your life. You know, it's like you cannot, at least me, I shouldn't say everybody. Yeah. I get very conflicted and very like, I don't know where to, because I can literally see both sides. I can stand on both sides. I can stand on the side of no children who are minor should not be in prison for the rest of their lives. But then I can sit on the other side and go, but look at the James Bulger case. Yeah. I want them to be in prison forever. Exactly. And it's funny. They say that, but not funny. It's like, interestingly, you say that because that's one of the first things I thought

about. Yeah. It's a very, it's one of those topics I don't think I will ever fully. It's like the death penalty. Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think it's totally 100% worse of a confliction. Yeah, because the death penalty at least we're talking about adults, which becomes less. No, I just mean in the way that it's not black and white.

Like you're saying. But I think this is even more gray. I think there's just so much involved in this, because it involves children on a hundred different levels. It's like children as a victim and children as a defender. And defenders. Who then, it's just a lot. So when I saw that that was happening, my first of all, my heart immediately thought of

Derek's parents. I know. And like aches for them. But then I also was like, wow, what do people think of this? I just got to know. Well, let us know what you think. So let us know what you think of it. I'm very interested.

Sad. It is. It's really the whole thing is sad. It's like there's no happy ending here. No. At all. Like there's no silver lining here at all. Right, because no matter what their child is gone,

that's horrible. And it's one of those things where now, you you know he gets out and he gets to live a life and Derek doesn't. Right. So it's like it's tough. It's tough to have any kind of like feeling of like positivity in this case. Yeah exactly. But you know all you can hope is that he has been rehabilitated. Well and I mean that is supposed to be like the entire point of the justice system. Of course. Yeah so I guess we'll see that he has been rehabilitated. Well, and I mean, that is supposed to be like the entire point of the justice system. Of course.

Yeah, so I guess we'll see, but let us know what you think because I'm very conflicted on the whole thing. So I love hearing other people's opinions about it. Yeah. But now that we've talked about that, like crazy thing, I don't think there's anything else I really wanted to touch upon, but I think we're just gonna dive right back into Velisca. Let's go. And I've been having weird dreams about ax murders

Because this episode we're gonna talk about a few more ax murders, so I feel like I've just My whole life has just been enveloped in ax murderomertor. And it's been a trip. Yeah, I mean, I could see that absolutely being a trip. Yeah, I've had some like sleep paralysis moments where I wake up, woken up a couple nights, and been like, is that an axiomertor in my room or not? What? Or not.

And it's been not. So luckily it's been not. And I'm here to tell you about it today. Yeah, now I can talk to you about it. But when we ended on part one, we were talking about the suspect that I immediately, like when I first started researching this case, was like, oh, he did it.

Like that's totally him. And it was Reverend or preacher, he called himself Reverend George Jacqueline Kelly. Yeah, and that's the thing, like when we ended and you said all the stuff you did about him, I was like, okay, so he did it. So like, it's so he did it. Yeah. It brought and vince me otherwise.

Well, and then when we ended, it came out that he recanted his confession and claimed police brutality, which is 100% something that probably happened. It's a lot. Does it say that it's a false confession? Not necessarily, but it was definitely coerced. And so it definitely could have been false because as we've seen in the first one that pops into my mind is the West Memphis 3, people will admit to things that you think

you would never ever admit to under duress. We got to have the Galveston 11. Yeah, you will admit to it. It's like if somebody's pushing your psychological and physical boundaries to the ends of the earth. Right. And especially in cases where somebody is not completely, you know, psychologically or intellectually

on the same level as their interrogators. Well, it's funny that you say that because in the West Memphis three, that happened and with the Galveston love. And it was like they really played on, they played on the fact that they could kind of manipulate someone who wasn't exactly on their level, which is really shady.

So this could have happened here because a lot of people said that Kelly was mentally ill in some way, shape or form. We obviously don't have solid proof of that. He's never been diagnosed. This was 1912. So it's just people being like he acted in a way that made me think that. So we'll see. But he was tried twice and acquitted twice. I know, and that is crazy. That like two juries couldn't. Two juries. And you said it was like one person.

First one was a hung jury. There was only one person that wanted to charge, which is too crazy. And so it ended up hung. They tried them again, and it was a full acquittal. Wow. So that's why we're going to come to part two. Okay.

Now, I would like to amend something quickly because I said in part one that I, that it was believed by a lot of researchers that Joe Moore was the only one hit with the sharp side of the axe first. Everybody else was hit with the blunt side of the axe with that first one and then chopped with the, right, with sharp side. But no, I found a grand jury testimony later that was like hidden in the archive somewhere. That said, Sarah Moore was actually the only one hit with the sharp side of the axe first. Oh, okay. Which to me suddenly brings this whole other like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second.

Right. Because it made it seem like Joe was the one getting the hard one first. The Ayrs. Was someone mad at Sarah or was someone which there's gonna be like what people have, like basically termed, you know, his mistress. We're gonna find out.

He was not exactly faithful. I don't even think I knew that part of this case actually. Yeah, this is like a whole, we're gonna get into it so don't worry like right now but like, that's what brought people like really into that theory that like a, while mistress was involved and maybe they were going after Sarah first and like she didn't do it but maybe somebody was paid to do it. You know, like there's so many theories involved. I don't think that's the case but it's very salacious

and like people talk about it all the time. And it is interesting that Sarah was hit with the sharp side because really all it takes is a blunt side of an X to the head to crack a skull open. Yeah, we were saying you're good with that. Like so it's weird that she was hit sharply first but it looks like Joe was hit before her. So yeah, I don't know.

I was just trying to think of a reason that would happen. I didn't really think of that. Every time you come out, something comes out that you're like, wait a second, then you're like, but what the fuck does that mean? That the DNA thing? I was actually gonna say it.

I was like, maybe she woke up or something, but then I was like, but the blunt side of the ax also would have worked as well. It just doesn't make sense. But yeah, I had to put that out there because that's very interesting. That a grand jury testimony did say that she was hit with the only one. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondries podcast American scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud in our newest series, we look at the Kids for Cash scandal, a story about corruption inside

America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers, and often for committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines. The judges were earning a fortune,

carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children, and force a heated debate about punishment and America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon music or wonder app. What if you were trafficked into a cult over shot nine times or fell in love with a vampire or went into a minor surgery and woke up one week later paralyzed. What would you do?

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Follow this is actually happening, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder app. Now, let's get into the rest of we have one more really big suspect that remains a suspect to this day. Like people still think that he did it. Okay. Frank Jones. Now he was definitely the biggest suspect aside from Reverend Kelly there, like Creeper Kelly. He was a local businessman and he was probably the most successful business guy in town. He was a banker.

He also owned a business in the same business as Josiah Moore, selling farm equipment and machinery and such. But he also had his own car dealership and was a state senator. How did he manage all of this? Because when I saw a car dealership, I was like, damn, look at you! But then I was like, wait a second, cars were like,

there was like flying a town at that point. Like three people had cars at that point. So it's like, it wasn't this massive thing. I know, because I'm literally picturing like a Toyota dealership. Exactly, and like that thing in front So it's like, it wasn't this massive thing. I know, because I'm literally a picturing like a Toyota dealer. Exactly. And it's like that thing in front of it like Dan Steele. Yeah.

The wacky inflatable arm man in 1912. How much? Honestly, at this point, I think maybe it was his like no good son Albert, who was the wacky inflatable arm man outside of the thing. Oh man. The OG wacky inflatable arm man. Yeah, pretty much. The organic one.

Um, but, the organic one. But what's crazy was he was in fact Joe Moore's employer for about seven years. He was his like right hand man. I know where we're going. So Frank like relied on him, taught him everything he knew. And Joe ended up leaving in 1907, leaving the business, which like happens, you know, he's gonna, he learned all he wanted to learn

and he wanted to open up his own. Sure. But when he left, he took some of the biggest accounts with him, we talked about it in part one. He took that John Deere account. Oh, I wanted to say it so badly, I wanted to be like, and he took that John Deere account, but I was like, I gotta let her say it.

He took that John Deere account and that is a big, the biggest account. Pretty much. I'm sure even today, if He took that John Deere account and that is a big, the biggest account. Pretty much. Sure, even today, if somebody took the John Deere account, people would be like, damn it. Yeah, they pretty much. And according to the man from the train by Bill James, which I can't say it enough, go buy that book.

I'm kidding. I'm not kidding. Go out of the boat. I'm gonna link it. You gotta buy this book. It'll just, you won't stop. It's, and it's like 400 and something pages long too and you will not stop. You will just blow through those. Just keeps coming in, it

just keeps coming in, it just keeps coming. Yeah. So that John Deere count that he took, that was no good. And in the book, he talks about how, you know, this essentially made him his business nemesis at that point, because he opened up the same business and took one of the biggest account. So everybody's starting to move to that one. It was just a bad blood right away. Yeah. Because if he had left and maybe not taken that account, I don't know if it would have been as bitter as it was, but taken that account, I think, was like the nail in the coffin. It's like rich health and Mauricio. That's exactly what I was thinking. When I read this, I was like, wow,

all I can think of is Mauricio. Yeah, me too. So I can buy cake and vert. Anything back to bravo. You sure can, anything. You sure can. In the book, The Man from the Train, as well, they say that,

Frank Jones was a very upstanding citizen. He was especially by the standards of the time period. He didn't drink. He didn't swear. He was a church-going man and the Methodist persuasion, if you will. Persuasion. According to the book, the book, the book, the book, Velisca, by...

Forgot to wrap it down, don't be an author, and I wrote, who wrote that? Make leather. I always do that. All right, I broke real quick author and I wrote, who wrote that? I make leather. I always do that. All right, I broke real quick and I checked and it's Roy Marshall and I am so remiss for forgetting that because he's like a very big like, he's the person for this.

Like he's one of the people that are like huge experts on this case, so Roy, I'm terribly sorry. Roy. But I have so many books in my thing. I'll do that when I like write my like quick outline. I'll be like more on this case, so Roy, I'm terribly sorry. But I have so many books in my thing. I'll do that when I like right, my like quick outline. I'll be like, more on this. And sometimes I'm like, oh, fuck. I feel like, oh, I didn't write more on this.

And then I go to say it and I'm like, nope, nope, nope. But either way, but Velliska by Roy Marshall, again, I'll link all of these books so you'll be able to see where they get them. But another great book on this case. How many books did you read on this case? At least four, iconic. It's a literary icon in the world.

Literally four, and then I got so entranced into many blogs, which let me tell you, a lot of people like, we scoff at blogs a lot, but like, and like people do. But these like historians and people who research these kind of things and make entire blogs about them, and get like real information and have like expertise in an area,

they can be some of the best things to find, because you look and they cite their sources, they all have their little bibliography. They tell you when it's an opinion and when it's not, like, there's a couple of blogs about this case that are truly amazingly done. Specifically, whenever I research haunted cases, I run into a lot of really great books.

I mean, you gotta be careful. You gotta make sure you're looking at one that has is reputable in any way. Yeah, and you have to make sure if their sources are listed, you have to go check them. But the Velisca blogs that I found are really great. I'll link whatever I can because they definitely

deserve the views because they're awesome and great wealth of information. But yeah, so speaking of Frank Jones, Roy Marshall in Velisca wrote that he actually led quite an impressive life. He wrote legislature for the insurance practices that are still used today. Oh, that's crazy

He helped form the Iowa Department of Transportation. He was a school teacher at one point He also sat on the state board of education He also happened to be a huge advocate for prison reform in conservation methods and to produce less waste. Huh? so Like that's pretty awesome like All of that is very, very philanthropic. Well, and unfortunately, no one really remembers him for this stuff, apparently, which if he's innocent is really sad.

Well, because it's like, yeah, because his name is tied up in this. His name got totally smeared up to this. And you'll see it really took him down. Now, you may be wondering, like, why is he such a huge suspect if he's such a great guy? Cause just the business rivalry thing does not at all indicate that you should murder

an entire family, including children. Like none of that makes sense. No. Like you're not like, yeah, I see that. Like no. But Joe Moore, so he started his computing business. They immediately became rivals. I mean, people said they would cross the street

rather than even talk to each other. Like, they hated each other that much. And apparently back then, it was like, they crossed the street. They did not shake hands. Well, and it's also like, imagine how awkward that would be. Like, if you were like walking past each other,

like, I'd cross the street. And wanna be just crosses the street. Like, yeah, it's the easiest way to go about. At least they weren't like fist fighting in public. Right. But is, again, is that caused's the easiest way to go about. At least they weren't like fist fighting in public. Right. But is again, is that caused to assume that he murdered or hired someone to murder him in his entire family and to strangers children? So far no.

And then of night. And like sexually assaulted one of them, perhaps. Like, and I say no, it's not. It's objectively not. Like it is not. That does not, that's not a motive. It's just not. If it was just Joe Moore, okay, business can get crazy.

I mean, like, people get crazy. But if the fact that it's the whole family of houseguests and like, the way it was done, the ritualistic manner in which it was done, the sexual assault of a child and the clear attention paid to Lena Stirlinger. None of that adds up. No, yeah, absolutely not. But there was a little more that added to the hostility between the two. On top of all this, Jo Moore, like I said,

was supposedly not exactly faithful to Sarah at the moment. He was apparently having a very toured affair with Frank Jones' daughter-in-law. Oh. Her name was Donna Bentley at the time, Donna Jones. Yes, the woman who was married to his son Albert. Yeah. Now, Donna, I gotta say she sounds like kind of a hot shit. I'm gonna throw it out there. I think she's right. I don't love that. Obviously, that's not cool that that was happening. But like, her herself, I'm like, wow,

you were really like living for the time. She's super young too. She was younger and she actually lived till 1984. Oh, okay. And it would have been a trip to interview her because I would just want to know about her life and about this whole situation I'd be like, please just tell me everything you should have interviewed her at negative. Oh at negative one I should have done it. So she was she was kind of known to have a lot of affairs She was married to Albert, but she was like that was it do you know a flight? It was like an arranged marriage Situation, but she married Albert Jones obviously that's Frank's son He was kind of like like a gross pig according to every single source that I read

He was like just Everybody literally described him as like just useless in every way like he was just he was a rich kid He grew up a rich kid. He didn't feel like he had to really do anything He was also apparently just like really just not attractive and anyway shape-or-form. Donna was beautiful and was known for her beauty. Why did she marry him? But he was also going to inherit the family business and the family fortune right along. That'll do it. So people think you know like maybe she was getting that paper and that was probably a good record. Just get that paper. Just get that paper. It kind of seems that way.

But she was also very flirtatious. She just, she was just asking. She was just asking. She was saucy. She was throwing big social events at her home. Like she was pretty like, you know, average, like in the social class things before she married Albert. But after she married Albert, she was in high society now.

So she's a social climber? Exactly. And so she was throwing lavish parties, and she's flirting with men. I would have hated the damn thing back then. I would have been such a social climber. She's living, and she's hanging out with dudes that aren't her husband while her dude is out of town.

It's just, that's not okay in 1912. Like, very, what's the girl's name in Gatsby? Daisy. No, not Daisy, the other one. Oh, Murdle. Murdle. Yeah, she's very much Murdle. But even just hanging out with dudes

while you were married back then, was like a cardinal sin. Yeah. And she's not okay. You can't do that. Straight to jail. She was referred to as a high stepper, which is like,

being awesome back then. I think it's just like, you were sassy and just like going against everything. Back to the view. I think it's just like, you were sassy and just like going to guns everything, but it was like, I think it was basically being like a woman of questionable morals. That you're like, I aspire to be a hot-sounding funny. But according to Smithsonian Magazine,

she would arrange the meetings with her various forbidden lovers over the phone. This was important because at the time, you had to go through an operator to place a phone call so the operators, which were mostly young women, always knew what was up, like they were the holders of the tea. At that point, like they had.

Signed me up. Jugs, they had growlers of tea. At all times. Do you know, could they continue to listen in after they connected? Oh yeah. Yeah, see, but I would have lived. Oh yeah.

That was like their bravo back then. They were living their own bravo. They got all the tea. And the operators, of course, were gossiping about it. And they were always saying that she was always calling or receiving calls from various men. And then the one that was most often heard was Josiah Moore. And they were calls to arrange meetings.

And it would be something like she would call and say, it's okay to come over now. Oh, yeah. Scandalist, like slow scandalous. I think we're low. Yeah. And also, like I gotta put it out there, Josiah Moore was hot. It was like, I get it.

Like I get it. I understand. You're like, so I just wanna get that thing on my chest. Josiah Moore, a daddy. Like I've seen like one picture of him, but like for the time period, I was like, I get it. I need to look at his.

Like I get it. Like I would have been into him. I feel it. I'm gonna of them, but like, for the time period, I was like, I get it. I need to look at this. I get it. Like I would have been into them, I feel it. I'm gonna find out. I'm gonna fuck around and find out. He's definitely, you're gonna be like, yeah. Like, that makes sense for you. But I am. But yeah, so, and she was very pretty.

It was just, they made sense. It worked, it worked. Now, obviously this is bad though. As fun as it is to talk about C. Oh, see I'm telling you. Yeah, I was like, oh, yeah, okay, I'm okay Google images. Joe, Sia, okay. I like married so. But married, yes. But but like very good looking man. Moving on, moving on. But yeah, so obviously this whole thing is bad, like morally, ethically, viscally, emotionally, emotionally,

but not necessarily, I don't know, it's all bad. Stimulically. But it's really bad, too, because it makes the Jones family look bad. Because if Josiah Moore is having an affair with his son's wife and his son's get like set to take over the family business, there's something to see with his powerful family. It just doesn't look like it. Tarnishes the name. Doesn't look good.

This is very like Rory marrying into the to Logan's family. Exactly. And it's like his and on top of it, their bitter business rivals. So now his arch nemesis and business is sleeping with his daughter in law. Like that is bad luck. Like so 1912, though. Yeah, very 1912. So this is where the motives that people dig up are starting to come in,

where people can start to come up with more like fleshy motives. Like forgive that choice of words, but the motives that make more sense. Sure. You know, robust. But here you go. Here's the rub, because it's like, okay. So more, you know, robust. But here you go. Here's the rub because it's like, okay, so Frank Jones. Cool, okay. So he did it now. But he was 57 in 1912. Right. So it was highly unlikely that he was going to swing and act that hard in that many

times the way the killer did. And I still don't think he would have assaulted Lena. And I'd, yeah, I don't think he would kill all the children. That doesn't make a lot of sense. That doesn't fit. No, that's a very specific part of that whole process. And even what, like even Sarah, why would he kill Sarah? Yeah, none of it, he would just go after Joe. Right. I would think.

And even then, it's like, I'm not much to bit. I don't know. So what people came up with was, was they think Albert and Frank hired someone to kill Joe Moore and his family. Okay. That's like a punishment your whole family dies

because of your indiscretion, that's kind of thing. Okay. Which has happened before, like, if you're gonna kill someone or hire someone to kill someone for you, you're pretty fucked up in the head. So it's like, you're not gonna, you would think that way. Well, and then I suppose they would still probably get some kind of inheritance if they were still alive.

That would make them angry, both of them. That's true. And because at first I was like, but like really, what, I mean to me, it's still not a great motive, but honestly, like what is really, like for real? But people have killed over stupid or shit. So, accurate.

So this is when chicken even crazier. So a man named James Wilkerson enters the picture. He was a private detective who worked with the Burns detective agency. Now at the time, they were in need of more detectives outside of Iowa to deal with this because they weren't equipped to handle this kind of large massacre. So when stuff like this happened at this time period, private detective agencies and security agencies would like be ascending onto the scene

because they would try to be the ones to crack the case, they could make money off of the competition. A lot of times it was like a lot of con men coming in, trying to just feed off of this and like, horrible tragedy that happened. Right. But it was kind of shady at times. So James Wilkerson was with the Burns Detective Agency

and he showed up. And he immediately floats the theory that Frank Jones was the guy and that Jones had paid someone else to do it for him. He was like, I know this is it. And people were already kind of talking about that. It was a rumor. And he went with his nose to the grindstone building the case for two years. Wow.

Yeah. And then it took another two years for it even to come into fruition. So in 1916, during the Republican election, which Frank Jones was going to be going for re-election, he dropped the bomb of who he thought did the deed at Jones's direction. Do you think it was like a political?

Well, it definitely was part of it because he, they sent around flyers to potential voters with the guys like the potential, the hitman's face on it. He was like a prisoner at the time and I'll talk about him in a minute. Sure. And they were saying like,

do you wanna re-elect someone who would hire this man to kill an entire family? So of course we were like, well, when you put it that way, no, like that's something I do. But he had a name for the hitman. So first, it caused, like just putting this out of the way, it did cause him to lose the re-election. Yeah, like that's not. It's a pretty serious thing to, to an allegation to throw at someone. Right, if he didn't do it. But

Wilkerson said the guy who actually did it at Jones's, you know, push was a man named William Mansfield. And Mansfield was a known cocaine addict. Everything says that he was like, they're all of the things I read were like, cocaine. He was big into cocaine. And I'm like, well, you probably would be to do that. I was gonna say, I mean, like that aggression. I was gonna say aggression and like, just like having like the amount of energy

and like strengths and like all that that it would take to pull that massacre off. I mean, like, yeah, I get why they keep saying cocaine was part of this. He was also just a very unpredictable and violent person anyways. So cocaine probably didn't help that. He was also the prime suspect in the 1914 murders

of his wife, her parents, and his child in Illinois. So another mass murder. Oh, and they were murdered by an axe. Oh, okay. Now, let me, because that sounds like, woo-hoo-hoo-hoo, but at the time, axes were just laying about. So I feel like it was just like one of the,

like ax murders were a thing at this time because that's the closest that everyone had an ax. Like a lot though. Well, if you read the man from the train, you will learn that there's many ax murders that happened during this time period. All right, and I encourage you to read it. I will talk about more.

And by the end of it, you should have a handlebar most of it. I feel like I'm screwed. At the end of that sentence. I'm just a little bit, you should read read it. I will talk about more. And by the end of it, you should have a handlebar most stuff. I feel like I'm screwed at the end of that sentence. Just a little bit. You should read about it. Or just like put that in your pipe and smoke it. I should. I'm saying. But and after we go through this, you're going to be like, oh, that's a lot of ax murderer in that happened at that point. All right. But you know, it's something to think about. That's all I'm saying. I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about it. Not expert, right? No. You said.

Wilkerson also believed that Mansfield was responsible for more killings that were similar to the Blue Skimmerters at the time. Those are the ones we're going to talk about. Spoiler alert. No. He did not, in my opinion, do any of the other ones. I think he's probably responsible for his family. Yeah.

I think that happened. Okay. I don't think he's a serial killer in the sense of the other ones. Okay. So Wilkerson actually convinced a grand jury to investigate these claims finally. And it was in 1916 that he finally convinced them to and they did and they did it for like a week.

They convened, they looked over everything, they talked to Mansfield after that week. He was freed. Wow. They were not convinced. They discovered that on the evening of the more murders, he was freed. Wow, they were not convinced. They discovered that on the evening of the more murders, he was working in Illinois and there were payroll records to prove this. So he had an album.

So Mansfield has an alibi, but to be honest, if I'm gonna play both sides here, kind of a flimsy one, because those records probably weren't like airtight, they probably weren't that hard to fake at the time. Yeah. It's probably literally just like a card that says like a date in like your artwork.

Correct. Like it's just like Illinois. Plucked in. And but who knows, again, it could go either way. Sure. It's an alibi. He has proof. Whether it's right or not.

So Wilkerson obviously was pissed and not convinced that he was innocent or Frank Jones was innocent. He held rallies to get people to start pressuring the grand jury to start to look at the case again. He talked a lot of shit about Frank Jones and Mansfield. Basically just kept accusing them publicly of the murders, like would not let up. That'll do it. And he also kept claiming that Frank Jones

had used his political influence and persuasions to get Mansfield freed by that jury. Like he was saying like, he's a politician. He has tons of connects. He got that jury to let him off. Like this wasn't real. And he was saying he's going to keep buying people off to get out of this and like, are you really going to let him

get away with this? Which like, if, I mean, that's really not that forfech. It's not, it's not. And, but well, Jones and Mansfield didn't love this, obviously. Yeah. And in September of 1916, Jones launched a suit to get Wilkerson on charges of slander. Yeah. So he was like, if you're going to keep talking shit,

I'm going to find out. Yeah. So this trial basically, you know, what it turned into was Wilkerson trying to prove that it's not Slander because I'm telling the truth. Right. So the only way that he could do that was to basically prove murder. So it turned into kind of a murder trial against Frank Jones and Mansfield. But like not, it was like still a Slander trial.

It was weird. So suddenly a lot of witnesses and shit are being called to try to prove that Wilkerson was saying the truth and not slander. So they brought in Alice Willard, who was the witness we all would want to see on court TV. I mean, she was just like, she came in with a mug and she was ready to just spill it all over everybody.

Everybody's got teeth. So much teeth. So she lives like a block away from the morse. And she said two days before the murder, she saw strange men walking around their home. And then late that same evening, she was walking with someone and saw five men meet up. And as she like hid in the bushes with this person, she doesn't exactly explain why she hid from these five men and didn't just keep walking. Well, maybe she was scared of them.

You know, here we are. So she said one of those men and didn't just keep walking, but... Well, maybe she was scared of them. You know, here we are. So she said, one of those men, she was sure, was Frank Jones. And she knows that she heard Frank Jones say, quote, get Joe first and the rest will be easy. Oh, she was kind of wild though. Like, sounds like it. And the person she said, she was with that day, so she claimed

she was with this like salesman named Ed something. And Ed was like, nah, no, well she was like Ed died last year. And they were like, okay, we'll look up the records Ed never existed. So that's not a real person. So the whole story of like, I saw these five men and then I like ran into the book that's like a lot. I think she might just be a woman of questionable morals herself. Yeah, she's a high-stepper. She's a high-stepper and a totally different way. She's a medium-stepper. But thanks for playing, Alice.

Thanks for playing. Thanks for the vibes. He was found not guilty and just had to pay a fine. So boom, done. Okay. But a lot of people were not convinced that he was innocent of this whole thing yet Frank. He was Nobody thought, you know, in the court of law, no one thought he was a murderer. Right. I mean once you plant the seed of like this guy might be a murderer. Exactly. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Exactly.

It's just like Lizzy Borden. Like some people don't think she did it. Exactly. But like she spent the rest of her whole life after she was proven innocent. She was tormented. She was never going to shake that. Right. You're never going to shake it. It's just there. Or even Mary and Stembridge. Exactly. It's like the... You were told that one.

That was... Thank you. Wow. Yeah. Like, whoosh. Get it. I was going to say, I was like very impressed. I was like, I just pulled that one right out of my...

And made a motion of me pulling it out of my ear. Yep. Sure did. So she pulled it from her ear. Everybody and... I just pulled that one right out of my and made a motion of me pulling it out of my ear. Yep, sure did. So she pulled it from her ear, everybody. And I just pulled that one right out of my ear. I'm glad it was living there because I was like, wow, good job. Thank you. No, but people still are not convinced of his innocence, even today,

which is kind of crazy to me because according to the man from the train, read it again. Hey, do you like that book? Love that book. I just love to like, I loved my old authors. Absolutely. I know, but I always beat people over the hell. But I'll just continue to do that because I love authors.

Compliance. And they did so much work for it. I'm like, yeah. Writing a book is really difficult. And it's special. As I've been told. But especially one like this, where he came up, when you read it, and Will only talk about a few of the cases

He went over but he comes I mean dozens of nonsense non-fiction like About factual events like I can't even imagine he got to be really on point with it But according to the man from the train Wilkerson was caught doing some shady shit later So Wilkerson this did private detective from that agency I shit later. So Wilkerson, this is the private detective from that agency, I don't think so it is. Well you said that there was like money involved and stuff. There was always like money involved. Motivated. He also proved to be like a bullshitting asshole later. So in 1915, so a year before all this like went to trial and everything, a school teacher

named Nelly Byers was unfortunately raped and murdered in Kansas. Everyone knew at the time that it was definitely a guy named Archibald Sweet. He was known as an asshole, a convicted felon, those two are not mutually, so like it's not the same thing. He was both of those things, a convicted felon and an asshole. And he was someone who had already developed a history of violence against women. So he was all of those things. He was staying in a home very near to her, near to the scene. And he was alone that night that it happened.

He was staying with someone, but no one was in the house. Now Nelly also had told people she was scared of the sky and had avoided him on many occasions. There was physical evidence to tie him to the crime. He did it. Period. It was just everybody knew. They really wanted to get this guy and they didn't want to make any slip-ups. So we see this in cases now, too. So the county attorney asked the Burns detective agency

to help gather some more evidence, just to really lock that case up so he couldn't wiggle out of their guess. So they put Wilkerson on it and they put him on there to gather more evidence. We got to convict this guy easily. He was obsessed with whether there was a reward or not when he came into town. And they were like, no, there's not a reward because we just know the guy who did it. Like he's already, he's already like, we're following him. And maybe you could just do this out of the fucking kindness of your heart. And like maybe just to honor this victim.

That would be like, you asshole. So then he went on a crusade, when they were like, no, there's no reward because he definitely did it. We just wanna make sure we have all the evidence we need to convict. That's all. So then Wilkerson went on a crusade to free him.

And was acting convinced that he didn't do it. He said there was another man who did it. They named him and they said they needed to pursue this guy. So they were like, let's pursue this guy and let's set up a reward fund. So he's in it for the mula. And Burns Agency actually was fired off of this case because of Wilkerson.

Of course, I don't. And I would do the same thing. And sweet, Archivald Sweet was convicted of raping murder. Yeah. And it had evidence. Well, and it gets worse. In 1917, after Wilkerson went through that whole slander trial with Jones and Mansfield,

Sweet actually testified that Wilkerson actually approached him, Archivald Sweet, the man who was convicted. He said, Wilkerson actually approached him, Archivald Sweet, the man who was convicted. He said, Wilkerson actually approached him and asked him to work together to frame someone else for the murder. What the fuck? So that they could get the reward money. Yeah.

He signed an affidavit to this effect, saying that this happened. Wow. Obviously he's a rapist and a murderer. I don't know if we can take his tutorial. But what is he even have to be from? But he has nothing to gain. That's the thing.

He has nothing to gain and nothing to profit from that. But he has nothing to gain. That's the thing. He has nothing to gain and nothing to, to profit from that. Right. That's so valked. So like, two Wilkerson there, James Wilkerson, I don't exactly trust his shenanigans. I don't just think. No, shitty.

I hate that people like that exist. It's herousia. It's herousia. It's her con artist. And you're a con artist in a way where it's like life or death. Because you're trying to free like literal, like you're not trying to free innocent people and trying to make the world a better place

by not having innocent people in jail. You're trying to free people just so you get money at it. And put innocent people in jail. Exactly. What the fuck? That's the worst you can be. That's like a crime in and of itself. So unfortunately, even despite all of this,

even knowing James Wilkerson is no one to be trusting with this case, Frank Jones is still known as a God. That's chief suspect in this case. But the other suspect that I think is just like interesting because we mentioned him briefly in the first part. I don't think I mentioned his name, but he was the one who took the piece of skull from the crime scene.

Remember I told you he. His name is Bert McCall. He happens to also be one of those five men that Alice said she saw that day. She said Bert McCall was one of those five men. He was an savoury character. He was a drinker, a gambler, you know, kind of like aggressive.

Kind of like a fast on the town. Yeah, and he was just like aggressive. He just like wasn't like super friendly. He managed a pool hall, which at the time I think you were also like saucy if you managed a pool hall. And he had like a car service. So he was attempting to get into business with Frank Jones and Albert Jones, because remember they own a car dealership.

He was out of town the morning of the murders and when they were discovered, I mean, and when he heard of them, he came like fly and back into Alaska, and that's when he tried immediately to get into the crime scene. So he was like one of the first people to be like, what do I mean there? Weird. Bert was turned away several times and finally got belligerent and threatening and used a connection to this, they had like a national guard kind of service and I was like the very like infantile national guard.

The commander of this was a guy named Commander Casey. He was friends with Bert McCall. So Bert went right to Commander Casey, used that connection because he also happened to be his drinking buddy. Boom. And Commander Casey let him in. Oh, Commander Casey. Oh, Commander Casey.

See what the fuck Commander Casey. Later, only a few months after the murders, he put a chunk of skull on display in his pool hall. It still had hair and flesh attached to it, and he said it was Josiah Morris that he took from the scene that day. And they do believe it was authentic. It's why it is. Would you do that? Now, I read, so he, of course, became one of the people because it's weird

talked about as a suspect that there's really nothing else to deny. I think he's just gross. And he's just like a not kind of an asshole guy. Right. And I think Alice might have just put him in that grouping of five men because he was known to associate with Frank Jones and Albert Jones through business with all that. So putting them together would make sense. They were probably, you know, he seems like he was kind of just like a, like I said, a drinker, a gambler, a fighter.

Like it makes sense to put them there. So, get rid of Burt McCall. He's just a deep ass. He's just burnt. Now, I read a brilliant paper, which again, I will link. It's like a thesis paper by a woman named Beth Klingensmith. And she wrote the 1910s Axe murders and overview of the crimes and the McClory theory.

So it dives into the theory that one man was behind all of the Axe murders or most of the Axe murders of this time period in the Midwest especially. Department of Justice Special Agent MW McClory floated the idea that at least six crimes, at least six crimes and 15 murders in total were linked. Oh wow. So yes, there were a lot of acts murders back then. There were. And in the man from the train, he adds another 20 into that, I think.

So it's intense. So I want to go over some of these and talk about why they may be connected, especially from Beth's point of view and also from Bill James from that book. Yeah. His eyes both are really compelling and both are well worth the read. I'm going to link Beth's paper to. It's like 30 plus pages, I think. It's fascinating. The theory states that a man named Henry Lee Moore was actually the serial killer. And no, he was not related to the Velisca Moors,

just a weird coincidence and a pretty common lesson. I was gonna say. Now, I don't think he is the serial killer who committed all the ax martyrs or Velisca, but I think he killed, he was definitely part of one of these ax martyrs. I think the rest were possibly someone else. So I'm going to go over his crime and then I'll go with, you know, what Bill James from

the man from the train thinks, like his ideas of what those are. And we'll talk about like how they're connected and everything and you'll see, like why it makes sense that this Henry Lee Moore definitely killed, so he killed his own family. That seemed to happen a lot. I was gonna say this is a different guy. This is a different guy who killed his own family. Geez.

In this one, he killed his mother and his grandmother. Oh. And I think he did that, for sure. But these other ones, I think, were the same person that was the killer in Velisca. Okay. So I think they're different from Henry Lee Moore, but I'll talk about his. Now, Henry Lee Moore was convicted of murdering Mary J. Wilson and her daughter, Georgia Moore, in Columbia, Columbia,

Columbia, Missouri, December 17, 1912. Mary was his grandmother, and Georgia was his mother. He had told police that on December 17th, he arrived in town from Moberley where he lived to visit his mom and grandmother something about like, you know, they were gonna go over like money or something. Uh-oh. He said when he got to the home, it was dark and quiet. He opened the back door and he found them both dead.

They had both been hit by an axe and that axe was found nearby. Police pretty quickly decided Henry was the guy. He was already super violent historically. His story was kind of bullshit. He had arrived the evening before. He had not arrived that morning and he had stayed in a hotel under a fake name in the area. Yeah, so there you go. He had blood on his clothing as well.

He also lied. Yeah, he lied about literally everything else in his life. Like, that seemed to be his thing. He was like a pathological liar. Right. During his trial, they found that he was also pen pals with a lot of women and young girls. Like, he was like a very big womanizer. And he mentioned to several of them that he would be inheriting his mother's home soon.

How'd you know that? Yeah. He got life in prison and later admitted to the crimes. He said he did it because he wanted the house and the property. Wow. So that's a pretty solid like here. I did it.

There's the murder. Now it makes sense he did these murders, but like I said, I don't think he's the guy that did the rest. There isn't any similarity aside from the axe here really. And there's just like again just a sign of the times at this point. Also just like a very different motive. Yeah it's like farmers, axes, crimes of convenience. But yeah it's a toad it has motive like a pretty clear motive. Yeah. Good or bad it's a motive. But like what would

the Valska motive be? There's no motive in any of these other ones you will see. So again I'm with Bill James on this one. I think it's an unknown serial killer who use the railway system to do these murders because we are going to see that near all of these homes, including Velisca, there is a railroad. Oh, weird how you just brought that back. Isn't that weird? And I didn't even mean to.

So the other incidents included in this theory are going to start with Colorado Springs, Colorado in September 1911, so a year before the Veliscop murders. May Alice Burnham, who was 25 years old, and her two children, Nelly Emma, who was six, and John, who was three. Oh my goodness. They lived at 321 Westdale Street in Colorado. This home was less than 100 yards from the railroad tracks. So may Alice and her sister, Nettie Ruth, were like very close. They had dinner every Sunday night together, like a family dinner. So I think her husband was consumptive. So he was often times in the hospital and he was staying in a hospital

where they were trying to like get rid of the tuberculosis basically. So he was not home this night and he did have like an alibi event. They thought it was him at first but he was able to prove it wasn't. Now, his may Alice and her sister, Nettie Ruth, had made plans to get together on Wednesday, September 20th, to get together and sew together, because they did projects together. She arrived at the home, but all the shades were drawn, and it was eerily still. She knocked, couldn't get an answer. So she thought, oh, Alice must be at their friend Anna Meritz home.

She's a neighbor, like a couple doors down. So she walked there, Mayalus wasn't there. And in fact, Anna was like, I haven't talked to her in days actually, and that's a little concerning. So together, they walked back and used a skeleton key to open the back door, which is literally what happened in Veliscat. Yeah, and it's like how you said, like, you're already got all the whole, the heart and straw.

Now we have a skeleton key. Now they immediately noticed that the Sunday dinner was still on the table. Like had not been cleaned up, was still sitting there. And Nettie had been there Sunday, the three days before. She knew something bad had happened immediately. And when they went into the rear bedroom, they found the bodies of the mother

and her two children on the bed. It appeared both mother and John three. Didn't wake up. They were hit in their sleep. But little Emma had tried to escape it appeared before being hit by the axe. The scene had all the curtains and blind drawn and it was pitch black in there. The doors were locked upon the killer leaving and there was a bowl filled with water. That was bloody where he had washed his hands. That's weird. I don't know if you remember this, same in Veliska. Yeah. The killer had hung around, washed their hands, also covered some of the

bodies with sheets. Okay. Now, police and coroners were immediately called to the scene. And when they arrived to survey the scene, there's neighbors everywhere. They're all coming out because as soon as police cars show up, it's the same now. None of us ever changed. We're all going to run out and see what the fuck's going on. So all the neighbors are like, what is happening? And suddenly some of the neighbors are like, that's weird.

They're next door neighbors, which is the Wayne family. They were like, they're not coming out. And then some of the neighbors were like, huh, I haven't heard from them in a couple of days actually. Oh, no. So they were like, okay, so they enter the home next door and found another ax murdered family inside. Are you serious?

That's right next door. Right next door. Right next door. Wow. The victims were Henry F. Wayne, who was 30 years old, Are you serious? This right next door. Right next door. Right next door. Wow. The victims were Henry F. Wayne, who was 30 years old. His wife Blanche McGinnis Wayne, she was 26, and their baby daughter Lula, who was two. Lula.

They were all found in the same bed. They had all been killed with blunt ax blows to the head. Wow. A metal basin was found with bloody water in it where he had washed his hands afterwards and all the shades and curtains were drawn. Dude. The axe was found nearby for both of the scenes. It was one axe and it had been borrowed by Henry

from a neighbor and they found it like just abandoned nearby, like in Veliska. Again, on scene too. Like it wasn't like this person was bringing their own tool. And just like Velisca no robbery They were found with rings on bracelets that could have been stolen nothing was stolen from the house Clearly they had been done the same night by the same person that that's too coincidental to even no Consider they weren't no both scenes had windows where the killer had clearly entered and left through

In the Burnham home. There was ink that was on the windowsill, like a thing of a little jarving. Okay. That the killer had spilled and tried to clean up when they left. So that's how they knew they went in and out of the window. Wow. The police were like, nope, they're not connected. And they're probably not a stranger.

I think it's like probably the husband of Mrs. Burnham. What? Like, right. Okay. You're killing it, guys. Burnham. What? Like, right. Okay. Killin' it, guys. Killin' it. They're not connected. They're later left.

Speed orders. Next door where they literally, like, all the curtains are drawn. There's a bowl with bloody water. There's, they were like, they, it's fine. It was just crazy. Guys, what are you doing?

You're like, it's 1911, it's nuts. Yeah. The newspaper is at the time. So one of them said, six slain with acts as they lie asleep in bed, two women, a man and three children, ghastly evidence of a baffling crime. Motive includes lack to assist police in Colorado Springs.

Then it says, murdered in their own homes by some unidentified person who used an acts. The bodies of six persons, three in each of two neighboring houses, which I was like, wow, that's a weird way of saying that. That's very convoluted, but thank you. What did they say? Three in each of two neighboring houses. Yeah, I was like, you could have said that better. I feel. We're found here this afternoon. The heads of all the victims had been crushed and the appearance of the bodies indicated that they have been dead several days and that death had come while they slept. Wow.

Now, the next murders were in October, 1911. So only a couple months later, or a couple weeks later, excuse me. The first was in Monmouth, Illinois. So this was Sunday, October 1st, literally like two weeks after this one. William Dawson didn't show up to his job at the first Presbyterian church. So the church dudes were worried and they were probably just pissed that he didn't show up to his job at the first Presbyterian Church.

So the church dudes were worried and they were probably just pissed that he didn't show up to work. The church dudes. So they sent Deacons, I know that. They sent Deacons to his home to check on him. William Dawson and his wife Charity and their 13-year-old daughter, Georgia, were found dead in their home. This home was about a quarter mile away from the railroad. Georgia was found in a position that indicated she woke up and tried to escape

or she was placed in a different way. As we are seeing in Valiska, in the Colorado Springs one, and in this one, we have young girls who are placed a different way. Right. Either seem like they woke up or they were moved after. Right. Strange.

Connected. Yeah. And so Bill James says that this, often this particular serial killer would kill everyone in their sleep and they would be found where they left, where they lay. Just like in Veliska, just in the other ones, they were found in bed.

But like I just said, that young girl, or girl in this or woman in these situations is just in a different way. Right. Just like Lena. That can't be ignored. That's not a huge thing. A coincidence. That's not just like, oh, weird. That's a huge detail in the case. It's a big deal. All the blinds were drawn, the doors were locked, the bodies were covered partially with sheets. There were reports that a lead gas pipe was found nearby and they thought that was the murder weapon. It had like blood on it.

But as Bill James points out, he thinks, sure, it could have been. And it may be that they just didn't have an ax on the scene. Yeah, because this guy comes, like we said, with nothing. He comes with nothing hoping there's an axe. Because usually there is. He might have assumed there would be an axe, there wasn't, he used a lead pipe.

Murder is his intent, not robbery, not anything else. All he cares about is killing people. Right, and bludgeoning them. If a gas pipe works, that works. Right. So October 15th, only a week later, or two weeks later, excuse me, Ellie Ellsworth, Kansas, William Schoeman does not come to work.

Another William. He is working at a garage helping out the mechanic and also acting as like a taxi for riders of the train. A neighbor of the Schoeman family who lives very close to the railroad track, by the way, sees that their dog is wandering the neighborhood all day. And also interesting that he worked as a taxi driver for people on the train. Very interesting. So she tries to contact the showman to be like, Hey, your dog's wandering around.

Like, you might want to get him. She doesn't get a response. So she was close with the family. So she called the garage where William worked to be like, Hey, your dog's walking around. And I don't know why your family isn't answering the phone. And she gets the garage where William worked. She'd be like, hit your dogs, walking around. And I don't know why your family isn't answering the phone. And she gets the information from his employer, hey, he's not here. He can show up today.

So she goes to the house and she's like, I had a check on them. It's like Mary. It is. And she finds them all in their beds with their heads demolished by an axe. William, who was 27, his wife, who was Pauline, who was 27 as well. They had young kids

Leicester, who was six, Fern, who was four, and Fenton, who was two. Fenton was hit with such ferocity that the head was severed. Oh my goodness. Now, Pauline, the wife, was posed. And everybody else was found where they slept. Right. The axe was taken from a neighbor's yard and it was left at the scene. The blinds were drawn, some of the bodies were covered with sheets. A sheet was actually put over the phone as well. That's interesting.

This is interesting. And something, think that this was to stop the noise if it rang, which is like, okay. It could seem like a thing that this killer would do if you really think about it. It seems like he doesn't like external stimuli while he's doing this. He blocks out all the windows, he gets rid of any mirrors, so movement isn't going to like destroy this peripheral or anything. I think he just wants to be solely focused on what he's doing. So that definitely could be it that he didn't want the phone to ring.

It would muffled the sound of the ring. But then some reach of the researchers think and I agree that he covered this phone because phones at the time had those bells on top that look like ice. No, they look like ice. My grandfather, Pa, had one because he worked for the phone company for a long time.

I was always obsessed with it. It was this really cool old phone they had in their house. And to me, it always looked like a big face that looked at you. It has the nose where the receiver is. It looks like a honk nose. And it's got like things on the bottom that look like a mouth and big eyes on the top. Oh, and you may have been covering the eyes on the phone like he covered the mirror, so no one was looking at him.

That's weird. This is also why he demolishes their faces. And Joe Moore, who was specifically said to be Sam's eyes when he was found. Yeah. I think he doesn't want humans to be looking at him or anything that looked like it could be looking at him. A mirror, anything.

Huh. I mean, it definitely could be it at him. A mirror, anything. Huh. I mean, it definitely could be it. I think both are really good. Regardless. Now, there was an oil lamp with the chimney removed, and that chimney was placed under the chair, and the wick was split. Dude, come on.

And that was found in a couple of other cases too. A washing bowl was left with bloody water in it, where the killer washed his hands. Like, hello. Now, June 1912, there was like a big break at Peiola, Kansas. Roland and Anna Hudson. Her maiden name was Axe, by the way. Ooh.

Axe, Axe, Axe, E. I just thought that was interesting. On June 2nd, 1912, Roland did not show up for his shift at work. Neighbors were concerned because the evening before there had been a failed break in at another home on the street. In that home, it was a husband, wife,

and an eight-year-old daughter. They had been awakened by the sound of glass shattering. Found that someone had broken in, but had went out through the window. They had tried to use the oil lamp but broke the glass chimney. And when they broke the glass chimney, they fled. Oh my goodness. They had bent the wick.

Dude. Now, they go to the Hudson home, the neighbors, which was very close to the railroad, by the way, to check on them because it was unlike them to be so still all day. They flagged down a deputy city marshal who just happened to be like walking by and they had him enter the home.

The Miami Republican reported, a ghastly sight turning back a cover lid and sheet that covered their heads. They found Mr. and Mrs. Hudson dead. Mr. Hudson was lying on his right side with the left side of his head and face crushed. He was evidently murdered while he slept without having made much of a struggle. Mrs. Hudson was apparently awakened when her husband was killed and raised her head when

she was struck on the back of the head and of her face with some partially sharp instrument and inch or an inch and a half wide. So she moved. Right. The shades and curtains were drawn. Some of the bodies were covered in sheets and there was an oil lamp without a chimney in the room. Nothing was stolen. Yeah, dude. Again. Hello, hello, hello. Four days later was Velisca, Iowa. You know it. You know it well. We do. We do. You know what happened

then? Serial killer. Yeah. That says a serial killer. How is that not? Yes. 1911, 1912 axe murders serial killer. Absolutely. Or near the railroad. Four of those cases had victims heads covered with clothing and fabric. Three had killers who washed after the murders. Five had cases that they hung out for like way too long afterwards. Three of those cases used an oil lamp and removed the chimney and placed it aside and bent the wick. Yeah, dude, come on. Come on. So, in Bill James in his book says,

he thinks this is like a serial killer that was maturing at this point. So, had already killed way before this and he lists out a ton of cases that it makes sense. So, read the book. For every single case he ties to this killer, it's gonna blow your mind. It really is, because I was like,

you solved it, yo. Like that's insane. Yo. But yeah, so those are the cases that I think, and I think it is a serial killer. I mean, everything that you said it leads me to believe the same. But I'll leave you to do your own research with that,

and maybe someday I'll make a podcast that's like solely dedicated to this, and I can go absolutely crazy and just live an axe murdering existence because I wanna dive so far into this. But I will get away from like the suspects and the murders for right now and we'll end on the haunting.

Okay, because you know in Velisca there's gonna be some residual energy there. You can still stay there, yeah? You sure can. The home actually had seven owners after the murders, and then it was bought in 1994 by Darwin and Martha Lynn. It's a beautiful home. It is beautiful. They restored it beautifully.

Their plans were to make it into a historical museum and just kind of restore it back to 1912. They did just that. They had no idea how popular the house was going to be as like a tourist attraction. And you can stay there now for 428 bucks a night. And it's like the Lizzy Borden in where they hand you the key and they're like Godspeed brother and then they just leave you on the property. There's somebody on the property though. I don't think so. I think law is very state

by state and Massachusetts. They have to be on the property. There's somebody on the property though. I don't think so. I think law is very state-by-state in Massachusetts. They have to be on the property. Somebody might be on like somewhere, but they leave you. They do have the Lizzy Borden, but they're like somewhere in the property. They're like on like the like in the story. Yeah. So Martha Lynn has said she's experienced a lot of things there, but she refuses to go into specific details, because she said she doesn't want to color the guests' experience with her own. So she wants people to go in, feel what they feel or don't feel what they feel. All right. I don't want to tell you what to feel. She said, quote, I don't know if the murderer is still there,

but things have happened that aren't exactly coming. Now, obviously every single paranormal investigator in television show has been here. Zach Begins. Oh, you better believe he's been there. Of course. There, I think I mentioned like he had a real theatrical time when he went. But there are stories about people feeling like a real sense of dread there. And I honestly believe that now. Like if you would ask me this year, I'd be like, well, yeah, everybody was murdered in there. Like that's you're just going to walk in

and be like, I've of course, I feel like bummed at this. But after going to the Lizzie Borden house, it's inexplicable. It's not the anticipatory dread that you know, you're gonna feel upon entering a house where a horrible crime has occurred. That, yeah, that happens. You can smell it.

It's a different feeling. When we like touch it. When we were in Abbey Bordon's bedroom. I was like I feel he's sick. Like I don't feel right here. I thought I was going to pass. Yeah. And my legs just my legs were freezing.

Yeah. And I feel like Veliska must be more. I mean, the understanding must be even more part of children. Now they have toys set up in the kids rooms, like balls and such, because it's set up how it was at the time, and they put these things in there because a lot of people think that they can contact the kids and the kids will play with them with the kids, with the toys. Now, a lot of times people will roll a ball and it will roll back, or you won't touch

the ball and it will just start rolling at you, and people have tried to debunk it, they can't, they can't figure it out. There are tons of videos of this and they've done it on like a ton of paranormal shows. You've been fighting before. Like I said, Zach Bagans, or Zach Bagans has been like all up in here. Yeah.

I think he's like stood in front of it and like the beginning of his thing and he was like holding an axe. Like it was very intense. A little distrustful. Often people hear kids giggling and playing or they're here entire conversations upstairs. Really.

People will also say that sometimes they hear things whispered in their ear. Oh, I hate that. And they've heard things like do it and like, or like get out of here, or something like that, but like on a lot of times they'll hear like a very menacing voice saying, do it and like urging them to do something. That's scary.

They also, a lot of people say they report feeling their pant legs tugged. No. Like from a kid. Oh. I think all that is well and fine, but the feelings are what everybody really describes the same way. People say if they lie in the beds, especially the beds of the children,

they feel like overwhelming sadness. Not sadness of like, oh, I'm laying in a bed and a kid was murdered here. It's like a, they said they feel like a heavy feeling of dread on them. I don't think they say it's like tangible. Yeah, I couldn't do that, I don't think. There are motion detectors in the home, upstairs as well.

And a lot of times when someone's alone or they're downstairs, the motion detectors go off upstairs. Interest happens a lot. That also happens in your house, so that's fun. I know, that happens a lot in my house. No, luminal. Luminal and UV lights detect an outrageous amount

of blood splashes better on the wall, ceilings, and floors in the home. Still. It's like super unsettling. It's obviously they cleaned it initially when it happened, but back then in 1912, you just wiped it visually. It did. Right. And blood stays.

And even when you paint over it, you can find it again. You can bring it through. I didn't realize that it could last that long. Blood can still be seen. And there's pictures where you can bring it through. I didn't realize that it could last that long. Blood can still be seen and there's like pictures where you can see like the ceilings are just the splash marks on the ceiling. No, I definitely could but it's like really upsetting. So November 7th something crazy happened. November 7th 2014, a 37 year old man named Buck was staying in the home with his mother

and stepmother doing what they referred to as a recreational paranormal investigation. People do it all the time. Yeah. They were in different places around the home, and his mom and stepfather were outside. They were communicating with walkie-talkies and things like that. Suddenly around 12.45 a.m., which is when they think the mores were being killed. The mother and stepfather get a call through the walkie-talkie for help from Buck. He's like screaming for help. He was in the downstairs bedroom where Lena and I know were killed. They found him laying on the bed with a stab wound

in his chest. He was legitimately brutally stabbed in the chest with a knife. There was a knife in his chest. What? They had to call 911 from the Velisca Axmerter House, and he was airlifted eventually to a hospital in Omaha, Nebraska. He was an intensive care but released, and it was determined the stab wound was self-inflicted. But no one can figure out why or where the knife came from.

Like they don't think you just like, Harry didn't end with anything. Well, they think that he doesn't remember doing any of this. And he said he doesn't. So in a nightmare, like, I know it sounds weird, but like he legitimately stabbed himself in the chest. Like this wasn't like, oh, I felt something poke me. Yeah. He stabbed his own lung. Like he collapsed a lung. Yeah. He stabbed his own lung. Like, he collapsed a lung.

Yeah. That's commitment to a cause. If you're really just trying to fuck with people, like, that's really committed to that. I agree with you. I don't think Zach Baggins is that committed. So I feel like, yeah, I don't think anybody should be that committed.

No, in a book called In A Nightmare, A Nightmare in Velisca by Richard E. Step, they talk about in 2019 the show Kindred Spirits interviewed Buck. They talked to him because he did recover. And he explained that he had tried to recreate the crime scene a bit, which a lot of these paranormal investigators will do that. I don't agree with that kind of shit. I feel like that's asking for

trouble. But they like will kind of try to, you know, annoy the spirits and aggravate them and get them to do something. Let's not do that. So he said he admitted I did try to provoke them. And he said I was, you know, saying like some vulgar things and just trying to get some kind of reaction. And he said obviously he never thought that something like that would happen, but he said, he saw the biggest, like, orb or shadowy kind of thing he had ever seen in his life, and then suddenly he was lying on the bed with a knife in his chest. And he remembers waking up with a breathing tube in the hospital.

He doesn't remember anything between that. And did he say, like, I didn't bring a knife with me? He maintains that he didn't do this to himself. I don't know what his Stances on like why he would bring the knife or whether he remembers bringing the knife, right? But he said he maintains he did not do this to himself That he was like it happened like I physically did it, but I did not intend to do this Like I didn't go in there thinking I was gonna do this. I just don't understand why he would have had a knife in the first place. No, none of it makes any

sense, but it's still a very strange thing of that happened in that house. Whether it's, I'm not saying it's the house that made him do it. No, of course not. But it's a very, it's another strange thing that happened in that house where somebody stabbed themselves in the chest. Yeah. And like collapsed along. And he said there was a, now, and he also says there's a lot of creepy EVPs from that night. And like that were saying menacing things and his parents have those and whatever.

But that's a really strange thing that happened in 2014. It's something that people are still like, what the fuck was that? Because even if it's, again, even if it's not like the host made them do it, it's still a very dark thing that happened in that house. Yeah, of course. Like, why would someone add something? It's just very strange.

So, that is the last thing that I'll talk about that happened there, but the last thing I just want to touch up on is that you can go to this house still. You can see the original acts displayed. Wow, they had it in the house. Yeah, we're not in the house. It's not the historical society and it's behind glass. OK. It was acquired by Dr. Edgar Eppnerley,

who is an expert on the case and the history. He actually got the acts from someone else. And it was this whole thing where like, I read that no one wanted to like receive money for this axe like they didn't want to sell it Right, so he gave him like a box of chocolates for it So they say like the the axe was sold for a box of chocolates. It's like this weird story Now he had it he had it at his home for a long time and he would bring it out for events ashes so horrified I just I like shook my head no, because I just keep just going, no.

Like the whole, I would not want that axe at my house or in my presence. It was, yeah, he had it at his house. I am a big believer in energy. I know, this is not your, I don't, I'm not judging anybody. It freaks me the fuck out. Yeah, apparently Dr. Epperyly was okay though.

Yeah, I'm glad. Yeah, and he would bring it out for like documentaries. Yeah. They would have like historical festivals in the town where he would bring it out and put it on display. And then finally, he wanted to donate it officially to the historical society because he said, and they all say, even though this is huge tragedy,

it's something the town is known to have in its past, and it's such a huge piece of history. Yeah, you can't just forget it. You can't just forget that it happened. It happened. And technically it's unsolved, so it's like, yeah, it's almost all of it. And it's no longer considered a piece of evidence at this point, because it's been that long. Yeah.

But yeah, he donated it in October 2006, so you can see it if you would like to. I believe the cemetery is also only like a 10 minute walk from the house where the whole family is buried. So it's the same thing as the Lizzy Board and House. You can go see the graves of the people were lost there and then you can try to stay in the house. I don't know.

I don't know. After Luzzy Borden house, I feel like this would be intense. I do want to see this house really bad. I think this one is one that I would go see. I don't know if I could spend the night in that house because I literally did not go to sleep in this morning. No, and she did not allow me to go to sleep. Why the fuck would I let you go to sleep?

I know, I'm gonna sit up there alone and talk to the spirits. There were several times I tried to fall asleep on that couch and you would not let me. No, I'm not. No, no. Alina wants to go back and I'm like, yeah, we can go back, but again,

I'm staying up all night. Literally not going to sleep. And I was like, damn it. It was fun, like an in. It is interesting. And it's like a fun, you know, they make it into an experience. Exactly. You know, we're far enough removed from the actual crimes that now we can talk about in a historical way.

Yeah, and somebody asked where our room was actually in the Aussie boarding house. We were in the attic. We sure were. But we literally went there on the tour, left our bags there, got them the next morning, and that was about the amount of time spent there. The entire time, the entire night, we were in the parlor, we were in the living room, where Andrew Borden was killed, and we were sitting on the couch the entire night. And there's a fucking mail slot in that house, and you could hear it during the recording.

And the wind kept whistling through the mail slot. Because not only did we go to the Lizzie Board in House of October, we went to the Lizzie Board in House in October on a dark and stormy night. Yeah, like a monsoon was happening. It was not just raining, it was a fucking monsoon. Oh, we were, they left us lanterns

because they were like, when they left, they were like, power might go out, here's some lanterns. I was like, are you fucking kidding me? It hadn't started storming at, and I was like, wow, that's cute. And then it started storming it and I was like, wow, that's cute. And then it started storming. And it was like, cuckoo.

And you were like, oh, we might need those. It's a pee by pee. Yeah, it's a trip. So that is the Velisca ax murders in my discussion of them. That was incredibly as abridged as I could get it. I applaud you because that was a really interesting case to sit here and listen to. It's fascinating.

Thanks for your research skills. Thanks. Hopefully I gave you something different, because I know this case has talked about a lot, so hopefully you got a little bit of different perspective or I absolutely did. I absolutely did. But I will list all of these books.

I'm going to list the paper. I'll list the blogs, I'll give you everywhere you can go look for your own stuff. So enjoy and stay safe. We hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it. We're... But I'm so happy you go to those little No, I love you. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. So tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.