Morbid - Episode 273: The Winchester Mystery House (Separating Fact From Fiction)

Episode Date: October 25, 2021

The Winchester Mystery House is a tale that’s been told countless times. The house is featured on tons and tons of Top 10 haunted lists and over the years the house has become the focal point of the lore. We felt it was really important to tell the story not only of the house but of the woman who created it: Sarah Pardee Winchester. There were countless details that we didn’t realize about her or the house and through our research, we really began tearing back the layers of this story! Hope you enjoy it as much as we did! Books used: Sarah Winchester Beyond the Mystery by Bennet Jacobstein Captive of the Labyrinth by Mary Jo Ignoffo As always, thank you to our sponsors: Hello Fresh: Get up to fourteen free meals—including free shipping! —when you use code morbid14 at HelloFresh.com/morbid14 Norton Lifelock: Save 25% or more off your first year of Norton three sixty with LifeLock at Norton.com/MORBID Babbel: Right now, when you purchase a 3-month Babbel subscription, you’ll get an additional 3 months for FREE. Just go to BABBEL.com and use promo code MORBID Noom: There’s a science to getting healthier, it’s called Noom. Sign up for your trial today at Noom.com/MORBID. Solo Stove: Go to solostove.com. And remember, you get $10 off when you use promo code MORBID. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's ANGI, or download the app today. Hey Weirdo's, I'm Ash. And I'm Alena. And this is Malford. It's morbid. Mawbid. I don't know if you thought you were listening to something else, but you're not. You're listening to morbid. Yeah.

And I, you know what, something kind of fun happened this week. What? So we just finished my two-parter on the Veliska Axe murders. Like, Shaudi, and I was like so excited for that one just because of like the amount of information that I could find. I was like, could not stop. Can't stop one stop. And what a lot of people told us, I didn I was like, could not stop, can't stop won't stop.

And what a lot of people told us, I didn't even realize, but a bunch of people tweeted at us and said that Ryan and Shane from Buzzfeed unsolved, also, they went to the Velisca X murder house this week was that episode. And they took it like a step further, they went there. They went there. They literally went there. And obviously neither one of us knows each other

some really schedules. I wish we were friends like that. Or just like knows each other, period. Yeah, at all. So it was just like a really happy coincidence that it was like you could listen to the episode then see the X-Mart or how it's with them. Boom.

And we love them because I've watched BuzzFeed on Salt for years now, but everyone is always saying that we are literally like the counterparts to each other. I feel like we really are too. And the more you watch the more I'm like, yeah. Like there's an Elena, there's an ash. Sure, that's a little real.

Over here, there's a shame. Yeah, it's really real. But I thought that was fun. And definitely go watch it because it's a great companion to our audio episode. But you can go watch them and they are hilarious. It's almost like we planned it. I know. We didn't. We didn't. I don't. I wish we did. We could plan something in the future. Yeah. I mean, you're listening, right? Shane, he Ryan. Hey, it's an open invitation to be on the pod just saying.

But yeah, I thought that was just a fun coincidence that happened because I'm a big fan of them. So, big fun. Big fun. Fun of you, what? I'm a big fan of you, work. We in Atlanta, it's like literally the morning, but we are so slap-appy. I feel like it's because we had our little pumpkin carving

last night. Yeah, and it was just like, it was a very busy weekend. Yes. Like, we had tons of stuff going on, so it was, I mean, I hit a wall last night of epic proportions. After, because I hosted the pumpkin carving thing for the first time, it's a tradition in our family and we kind of pass it off.

Getting that together, getting the food together and stuff for everybody. We had making sure that everything was all set up and getting my costume on. I was like, holy shit, this is a lot. Yeah. And then I fell asleep on the couch last night and drew woke me up.

And he was like, come on, you gotta get into bed. And I was like, I am in bed. He was like, you're not. And he was like, you are decidedly not in bed. I wake up. Right now and you are on the couch. Just like. Said it's so aggressively on it.

I am. I am. How dare you. I love when you're sleeping like that. And you're just just said it's so aggressively. I am How dare you I love when you're sleeping like that and you're just like it's like ridiculously aggressive Yeah, I was pissed like get the fuck away from me. I am in slumber But I guess we should just get right into this we should just get right into this So if you clicked on the episode you know that this episode is about the Winchester mystery house. Oh yeah. Broom, broom, broom, broom, broom, broom, broom, broom. This is like very fascinating and I've always like heard this tale told in like a very certain way. And then I found a couple of books that I will tell you about. First I found Sarah Winchester, Beyond the Mystery

by Bennett Jacobstein. We love to go beyond a mystery. And Jacobstein, he did. He went beyond the mystery. Yeah. And actually in his acknowledgments, he actually used another book that I went and also got, which was called Captive of the Lab. Captive of the Lab Renth by Mary Jo Agnato. Her book is like crazy informative.

And it kind of like debunks the whole thing like the whole thing about Sarah like being wild and stuff. Be it wild. But before I even like blow this whole thing up, let's just start from the beginning. I'm here. I feel like the Winchester mystery house is like one of those cases too that's perfect to talk about during spooky season. It's like a Halloween classic. It's spooky.

And it's really a conundrum, and just the whole story is very bizarre, and it all begins with a woman named Sarah. Sarah. Because the 1800s. Everything begins with a woman named Sarah. I feel like the beginning of the dawn. Honestly, like the beginning of every story begins with a woman named Sarah. Sarah.

Yeah, especially around here, like, oh yeah. And she was from New England. We got many Sarah's. begins with a woman named Sarah. Sarah. Yeah, especially you're on tier, like, oh yeah. And she was from New England. We got many Sarah's. Now Sarah Winchester was born Sarah Lockwood Party. Party. And either 1839 or 1840, depending on the source, literally every single source is different.

All right. Nobody can really lock it down. And you're trying to tell me that she wasn't wild with a name like party. Party. She wasn't. She wasn't at all. She was very chill.

Very chill. Now, even though her real name was Sarah, those who were closest to her referred to her as Sally because that was her grandmother's name on her father's side. And her grandma Sally had passed away before she was born. So it kind of like got bestowed upon her. Oh, I love that.

It's almost like when people call John Jack. Yeah. And I'm like, that's not his name. Yeah, and I'm like, that's not his name. Yeah, and he's like, that's not my name. Like, that's not even short for his day. Like, that's not even shorter. Yeah, I know. I never understand this.

But it's like how people call like Richard Dick. Yeah, I'm like, no. But even that, like, that doesn't make sense, but it's at least shorter than the name. John and Jack are the same amount of letters. Just like that. I like that we're like, let's say it together now. Just a different name altogether.

Truly. Like Sarah and Sally also very similar amounts of letters. And it's just like lengths, just different names. Say the first letter, I guess. But it's also like when you have a middle name and people call you your middle name and study your first name, it's just names and miles. Yeah.

But anyway, Sarah Sally, she grew up in New Haven, Connecticut. Hey. Yeah. She had two parents, obviously, and six siblings. Now, her father Leonard was a carpenter. He owned his own business, producing carriages. Carriages. And he and Sarah's mother also named Sarah.

We're insistent that their children be intelligent and upstanding members of society. That's what I insist upon my children as well. I mean, we should all do that. Every morning, I'm like, I insist that you are intelligent and upstanding members of society today. You should. That's what their affirmations are in the mirrors.

I am healthy. I am wealthy. I am rich. I am intelligent and an upstanding member of society. Yeah. Good night. That's their, they're like, good morning. I'm intelligent in an upstanding member of society. I think that's a great way to be. It's good. I like it. Like, what's all strive to be that. Yeah. But Leonard's, he had a wood and mill shop right next to the family house. So Sarah spent a lot of time there, like watching the workers create different things. And

that's when she became really interested in architecture and design. Like she really felt drawn to it, and she spent a lot of time in that shop. What a cool organic way to get interested in that. Yeah, it's like watching people create. Right. Yeah, I love that. You look so just like excited to be here. Oh, get it, Sarah. I love when people get inspired by Shes. Yeah, Sarah! Yeah. So Sarah's mother was also said to be pretty high up in the upper echelon in the society. Ooh. And she was very well liked. But that's just like a little bit on her. Yeah, she just, she was just reliant.

He was just really liked her. Now before Sarah, little Sarah was even 12 years old. She was speaking five different languages. Oh, okay. English, Latin, Italian, French, and Spanish. Oh my God. I can barely speak English, and it's my native tongue. That's wild.

But Nannas. In addition to that, she was a really good musician and could play the violin, the organ, and the piano. Jeez. So like, mamma's upstanding, member of society thing, boom. Oh yeah, intelligence and upstanding, yeah. I'd say so. She also has a incredibly well-versed in literature,

and most of her favorite works were from Shakespeare, which is going to come back later. Oh, please remember that. The Bard. And on top of all of that, she was really, really beautiful, which was like super important back then, because you got to get married. You got to be hot.

Allegedly, the higher ups in the society would call her the Bell of New Haven. Oh, which like nobody's ever called me the Bell of New England. So let's start that yesterday. Honestly though, the Bell of New Haven sounds so pretty, it's like the Bell of Massachusetts. That doesn't sound a- Bell.

A-Blustin. It doesn't flow off the tongue as well. It's like the Bell of New as the belly of New Haven. The belly of New Haven. The belly of Boston. Ah! Yeah, kid. You got fucking Duncan?

That's, yeah, no. But Serious Family, they were neighbors with another pretty prominent family in New Haven, called the Winchester. Now just like the party, family. They had children, and most of them were around the same ages So their family is really clicked and worked together. The kids all played together And they all just grew up as really close family friends. That's cute. It's so cute

It's so just like oh very whole so kitschy now eventually Sarah's family would set her up with one of the Winchester boys Obviously William William Winchester William Wurt Winchester W.W. William. William Winchester. William Wurt Winchester, WWE. Now Sarah and William Winchester married on September 30th, 1862. Now by all accounts, even though the marriage was technically arranged like between the families, they were really happy together.

Sarah was kind of a quiet reserved person who really just preferred to be by herself. She didn't really let a lot of people into her world, but William, things were different with him. They were super in love, and Sarah found a lot of comfort in her husband, like actually talking to him and getting to know him and everything.

Oh, I love this. It's so, it's so precious. What a lovely story so far. Yeah. Oh, funny that you say that right now, because that was actually horrible timing. Oh, no that you say that right now. Oh, that was actually like horrible timing. Oh, no. Hey there, fellow podcast listener. It's Elena. And we're taking you back to the days before streaming services. Whoa. You know, when you would come home from high school, and it was only a few

hours until that TV show, everyone was watching was about to come on. Well, in 1999, that show was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In our podcast with Wondery, the re-watcher Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we take it back to 1999. So get out your knee-high boots and paste that poster of Angel on the Wall. It's time to enter the Buffyverse. Some of you avid morbid listeners already know what we've gotten store. Join us. Join us as we sway our way through Buffy's drama, action, and romance.

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Download the app today. Yeah, so together they actually had one child named after Williams late sister Annie who had passed away like pretty recently. I believe it was Walsh era was actually pregnant with their child. So they named her Annie to honor his sister Annie's memory. Now, Annie, their baby was born on June 15th, 1866, but unfortunately she passed away that same year on July 25th. She was only alive about six weeks. Oh.

Because the doctor had diagnosed her with merasmus. It's a protein energy malnutrition. Wow. So basically, she couldn't absorb the nutrients that her body needed, and she essentially passed away from starvation. Oh, that's horrific. And not from like a lack of being physically felt like she was being absorbed. No, just like being not absorbed the nutrients.

Right, her body just couldn't take it. That's horrific. That sounds like a horror movie. I've never even heard of that before. Oh, man. Now, needless to say, William and Sarah were obviously devastated. Yeah.

And William had worked to turn to, but Sarah became more reclusive than she was already even known to be. Understandable. So sad. Now during the early days of their marriage, William and Sarah were living with William's parents. And the Winchester's had family money because they owned a clothing company, which William was an heir to.

But they were also going to run into a lot more money because William's father Oliver had been investing in the rifle industry. I was just going to say I feel like some bigs coming. I don't know. I think those winchesters, they might go places. I think you're right. Now he was specifically investing in the volcanic repeating arms company and he was making really good money off of his investments. And it was around this time that he and William hired a mechanic, Benjamin T. Henry, and together they invented the first repeating rifle. Yes, it could fire 15 rounds in mere seconds. And it was named the Winchester rifle. At the end of the 19th century, it was one of the most sought-after guns,

and you can still get them today, and I don't really know a lot about gun prices, but the really expensive it seems. I saw them, for sale, for thousands of dollars. Oh, wow. I was like, holy. I know, I don't know how much guns cost. I literally have no idea.

That sounds like a lot. I mean, much money. But eventually the family went on to find. To find. To find. To find. They founded the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. And William's parents promised that they would build Sarah

and William this beautiful home that they would all live in together. And it would overlook the building that oversaw all the work. Oh, cool. We're going to over factory. Yeah, that's what I want. Yeah, gorgeous. It can be a beautiful house that's're gonna over factory. Yeah that's what I want. Yeah gorgeous. Give me a beautiful house that's overlooking a factory. I love it. Oh god just relaxation.

Then the repeating arms rifle company. It's a. So fun. Now they did follow through on that Promise, but Sarah ended up doing a lot of the work with the architect Henry Austin because William and Oliver were really busy with the rifle company And William had started to travel to kind of like show different people how this worked and try to get like selling and she loves architecture And she loves architecture And it was then that she started to fall even more and more in love because now she's like an adult, so she's kind of understanding the interworkings of this all. And she's seeing it like come into fruition. And it's like her vision, exactly.

And she really was a very creative person, it seems. Now, unfortunately, William, Sarah and their family would not live in that house together for very long because in 1880, all of her Winchester passed away, but he left a good chunk of his fortune to William. So William was like, get in that dough. Get in that paper. But William had been sick for a while too

with tuberculosis. And he died just three months after his father. Oh no, consumption is gonna get you at least time. He was only 43 years old. Oh, that's so sad. So Sarah has lost her baby, her father-in-law, her husband, and at that point she had already lost a sister. Oh my God.

So she was going through a lot. Yeah. She did, however, inherit the fortune that was made through the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. Allegedly, she inherited $20 million and an additional 50% of the stocks. So for Arms Company. Allegedly, she inherited $20 million and an additional 50% of the stocks. So for a woman at that time,

she was incredibly rich. Yeah, I'd say so. And originally, her portion of the money was managed through two of her brothers-in-law, but eventually when she moved to California, she took over managing her own money, which was unheard of at that time. Yeah.

Bad bitch alert Sarah Winchester. Sarah. It's crazy. But the other thing was she had been really close with her father and not Oliver, and Oliver taught her a lot about money and just like how stocks worked and how investment properties worked. That's cool. They had a really close bond.

Yeah. So she kind of learned all of that through Oliver. I like it. And she ended up doing really well and she actually bought a few investment properties along the way throughout her life. She was a badass. I didn't know all this about her

because I never really listened to a lot about the Winchester Mysterios. Yeah. So I honestly don't have a lot of information about it. So this is like fascinating to me. I'm glad. I'm like damn. Well, you always hear, I feel like a lot of times

like she gets painted as like this crazy lady that was building her house. That's literally all you hear. Right. She was just this like mad woman who just kept building this house and like horror, and it's like what? It didn't really, the more and more

that I read this book, and obviously I think it was the point of the book, but I was like, yeah, like, that's not who she was at all. Yeah, like it was a lot more to her than this house. I think it all got tied up in legend for fun, you know, over the years, which happens with a lot of things. Yeah. But Sarah's nephew Winchester Bennett said that after William's death, Sarah stayed in New Haven for a little while, like a few years. But this is where the story gets wild and kind of what we were talking about.

Over the years, a lot of people have spread rumors and spoken about Sarah and the home that would later become known as the Winchester Mystery House. Many of those origin stories begin with a trip to a medium. Now, it's not that far fetched to think that Sarah would have gone to a medium after all the loss that she had suffered.

But during this time, mediums and anything up that sort was like super frowned upon. So it's really heavily debated whether she did or she didn't. Yeah. But to her credit, like I said, she had suffered a crazy amount of loss. So I wouldn't think it's that crazy to think that she had gone to a medium. Yeah, and I don't give a shit. And if you go to a medium if she wants to, I want to go to a medium judge right now.

Yeah. But if she did, then she was probably seeking some kind of comfort or answers on what she should do for the rest of her life, you know. Now, allegedly, the medium told Sarah that she needed to head out west, but she warned that she would be haunted for the rest of her life, by the spirits that had died because of her husband's invention, the Rochester rifle. It was like, she was saying it was like karma coming after Sarah, because her fortune she received because of blood money is what this woman was saying.

It was really dark. That's real dark. Now the medium recommended that Sarah continue to build and build and build upon her house, and that if she just kept building, it would keep the spirits at bay. She just always had to be working on some kind of project. And she said that as soon as Sarah stopped building, she would die. Yeah. So Sarah had no choice but to do it. Which is usually like the opposite. Usually a renovation brings about ghosties.

I'm saying. They hate an HGTV moment. They do not like that. So usually they come out and they're like, what the fuck are you doing here? Why are you renovating my beautiful Victorian home? But this lady's like builds a lot and renovate a lot and the ghosts will be like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Well, so the idea was that like she was gonna like confuse the spirits with all these rooms. Oh, so they could. I get that. Yeah, I see that. Okay. So with that Sarah headed out to California and she bought her home at 525, S. Winchester,

Boulevard in 1886. S. Winchester Boulevard. S. Winchester, Boulevard. Now, originally, the home was a two-story farmhouse with eight rooms. It's not that anymore. It's literally the antithesis of that house. Yeah, I see. I'd say it is.

It's really not that anymore. It's a little bit more. A little bit more, not at all. But just like picture, because if you can, if you, you just Google it right now, like if you're driving, don't do that. Put the Winchester mystery house.

Now, and then think of it as a two story farm house with eight rooms inside. Let's see. That's bananas to me. But it was built up. I know, I can't make shit. No, like that's crazy. Because you're like, where did it even start?

No. It looks like the Eastern State Penitentiary with all the freaking like, field houses and stuff. Yeah. It's crazy. I mean, it's a lot more beautiful, but... Wow. It was built on 45 acres of land

that house fruit and nut orchards. It truly sounds whimsical as fuck to me. Yeah. And Sarah named the house Yanada Via because it reminded her of a vacation spot in the Pyrenees that she and William had once loved. So it was like her Yanada via. Oh, stop, the love.

I thought that was the most precious thing I heard. And I didn't actually know that. So Sarah got to work on the house right away because she had no fucking choice. Hell yeah. Originally, she had hoped that her sisters Isabelle and Estelle. Estelle.

Estelle, you say? Me. Yeah. With her. And she thought they were gonna live at her house and she wanted them to bring their children. Because she's also probably freaked out at this point. I wanna live alone.

Yeah, because she's like, now I have to keep building so these spirits stay away. And so I'm gonna be living in a giant house with ghosties and it's gonna be loud and I need some friends. Yeah, or on the other side of that, maybe she just loved her family. Yeah, that could be a two. You know, so she built the space to accommodate all of them.

But when they made it out to California, they just changed plans and ended up living in their own homes. Which I was like, guys, come on, live in her mystery house. Come on, here, Rob, it's not even a mystery house. Why don't you wanna live in that mystery house? I on, here, it's not even a mystery house. Why don't you want to live in that mystery house? I guess it was because at the time, San Jose,

which is where Sarah had bought the house, was like a very isolated area at that point, and her sister's wanted to be closer to everything. Like a hustle and bustle. But about two years later, in 1888, Sarah's niece decided to come and live with her. Her niece, Mary, and Mer Meriman, she was called Daisy. Again, I don't know, I'll never understand it.

By all accounts though, she was Sarah's favorite niece and she ended up living in the house with Sarah for 15 years until she got married to her husband, Frederick Maryott Jr. Now, it's said that Sarah had a construction crew working on this house day and night 24, seven, all hours of the day, heating the mediums advice.

Just think about how shitty renovating anything is. Yes. We had tile put in our bathroom and I was like, I won't survive this. No. Like I won't, it was so annoying. We had a bathroom painted and I was like, I want to go in my bathroom. Yeah, come on. I just, I don't think I'll make it through this. Having your space not be like your space, it's too much.

So this would be a nightmare to me. Yeah, nightmare, nightmare, nightmare. But the team was supposed to have been made up of 16 men who all worked on various things. And every morning, Sarah was said to have met with the foreman and discussed what she wanted to be done that day. And legend had it that before she met with the foreman in the morning, she would spend the previous night

in the sands from talking to the spirits about what she planned to do to the home and how they felt about it. All right. So she had to get their clearance first. She's working with them as contractors. She's like, will this work out? Jess pictures Sarah in a sands room being like,

so I was thinking about doing some extra gingerbread in the front. And they're like going to knock down that wall in a day closet. And they're like, I fucking hate that idea. Why don't you put a sunlight in the floor, Sarah? She's like, okay, all right, I'll do it. Okay.

In addition to the construction team, Sarah also had 18 servants and 18 gardeners. Wow. So people were like, she was really alone in the home a lot, but she wasn't. She was an spoiler alert. No, 18 people. So 18 times two plus two. Yeah. Now she really cared about the people that worked for her and she paid them a rate well over

what was customary at the time. She would also buy homes for her employees' families so that they wouldn't have to like travel too far and be away from each other while they were working on her house. Oh, yeah. Like I love her. I love her. I love her. And during a time where people were incredibly racist, Sarah welcomed anyone into her home and like it didn't matter who they were, what their race was. Good job not being racist Sarah. Like claps for that. Her head gardener was a Japanese American man named Tommy Nisha Harrah. And at the time in California, Japanese Americans were like facing an enormous

amount of prejudice. Like treated horrible. It's like there's not even a word for how about they were treated. But Tommy obviously never felt that way with Sarah because she just welcomed his whole family into her house, like one of her family. And like really they just built this strong bond together. I love that. So much so that his granddaughter's middle name ended up being Winchester.

Stop. Yeah. Like, oh, that's like really sweet. Ruined me. Wow. Adorable. See what could happen if everybody just fucking loves each other? Yeah, it's true.

He would happen if you were not in family. Yeah, it's like, people can be awesome, man. That's the thing. Sarah was awesome. Yeah. Now, most of the renovations and projects that Sarah did on the house were in the Queen and Victorian style.

And before we get to the oddities of the house, it's important to mention how progressive this place really was. Before gas and electricity were installed, the house had its own gas and manufacturing plant. Yeah, obviously. Like, what? It also had its own water tower.

Yeah. Sarah also had an enunciator installed in the home so that she could call the workers or like whoever was in the home, no matter where she was in the house. And like a little call button would light up to, like whatever area of the house that she needed it to. Because that would be such a pain in the ass

to have to get somebody on the other side. I can't even imagine. And if they want like a glass of lemonade or something. Like again, look at the picture of the mask. She also had brass plates installed in the corners of all the staircases in the house so that it would be easier for the servants to clean because dust wouldn't collect in the corners. Oh! She was really thinking of the others. She was really thinking. And yeah, also probably just looked nice. I was gonna say that probably looked nice. I was like, oh that's a pretty good idea. Yeah, that looks great.

I was like, that's a pretty good idea. Yeah, that looks great. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ She also designed the laundry room to be easier on the people working there. There was both hot and cold water, like running water, which was again, on her note at that point in time. She had it all. But obviously, like I said, there are countless oddities

around this house. Because I was going to say there are, this is a mystery house, for sure. Oh, 100%. There are stairways that lead nowhere. Yeah. Trap doors, secret passageways. I love that. One room features a skylight on the floor, like I mentioned earlier.

There's spider web windows, which actually was really common at the time in Victorian homes. Oh, yeah, it was part of the aesthetic. Yeah, part of the aesthetic. There is a cabinet that also apparently opens up to 30 more rooms. I'm obsessed with that. Like need it. I'm obsessed with that.

I want secret passages and like cabinets that open to a whole other part of the house. Me as well. There are staircases that have steps only inches apart. There are winding hallways that you would most certainly get lost in. And on the second floor, there is literally a door that opens up to the outside of the home. And if you walked outside of it, you would bust you booty on the lawn.

Like, there's no staircase, no ladder. You would bust your booty. Like, it's not an all-functional. No. And then in the ballroom, there are two art class windows that were designed with Shakespeare quotes. One of them says, wide unclassed the tables of their thoughts. And the other said, these same thoughts, people,

this little world. Ooh. It's just like very like, oh, I love how like spooky and beautiful that sounds. I knew that you were going to love like the spookiness. Yeah, I'm like, oh, I'm feeling it. The home has been referred to as the most unusual and sprawling mansion, and the project has been

referred to as America's longest renovation. Yeah. Now, over the years, the home got to the point where it was 24,000 square feet. That's big. It has 2,000 doors, 10,000 windows, 52 skylights, 47 stairways and fireplaces, 13 bathrooms, 6 kitchens, and 17 chimneys.

Damn. Hwa? Damn. Hwa? Wow. Like, and people today say that there's about 160 rooms, but no one is absolutely positive of that because all the secret passageways

and then the winding hallways get confusing. So there's like give or take. Six years of the out. But surprisingly, there was no master plan ever found. So she just was, I think she was just flying off the seat of her pants. I think so too. Wow, what a woman. But in my own accounts think she was just flying off the seat of her pants. I think so too. Wow, what a woman.

But in my own accounts, she was in charge. Like she talked to that woman every day and was like, here's what I want you to do. But she must have just been saying it by like, word of like, like, with her words, like not, yeah, a blueprint or anything. Which they never found anything. Which it makes sense why they're like doorways leading to nowhere

and staircases leading to nowhere because like, how would you keep track of all that without a master plan? Exactly. So if you don't have that and she's just like, yeah, throw a staircase over here. You don't know what's behind that. And they're just like, what's just do it? She told us to. I need to know how the cabinet opened 30 different rooms.

Oh, I gotta know. For why though? I want to go to this house really bad. Oh. I've always wanted to go to this house, but I'm starting to like get, now I'm like, we gotta go. You can get married at this house. Stop just saying, okay.

Stop. Like, in the weddings are beautiful. Oh, I'm sure. Maybe I was looking at the pictures. I don't know. But over the years, people have come up with tons of ideas about why Sarah designed the house the way she did. And a lot of people settled on the idea that she was trying to create some kind of

labyrinth, and that it was her way of confusing the spirit so that she could live without being harmed. Like they get lost in the winding hallways, honestly makes perfect sense. Yeah. Now, other people think that she was really inspired by the English philosopher Francis Bacon, and that the rooms and symbolism throughout the house are some kind of secret puzzle or encryption. Ooh, which I will maybe.

And those who believe that say she could have belonged to a group like the Roce accrucians or the Freemasons. Or I'm in terms of that. Or potentially both. And they also think that Sarah's love of Shakespeare supports this theory because followers of Francis Bacon believe that he actually wrote Shakespeare's works. Oh yeah. And she had gone to college with this girl at the time

and was like friends with her that was literally like a Francis Bacon. Like she was like spouting all the words. She was a Francis Bacon head. She was a bacon head. Yeah. And she was like really good friends with her. And then Sarah was so like like, she had loved the classic

so much of Shakespeare, that it would make sense. It would make sense. It definitely would. But I will get into some simpler reasons for the construction of the home toward the end of the episode. But that's a little fun. I'm still going with its apostle.

Now, sadly, in 1906, the great San Francisco earthquake destroyed a good amount of the home. There was a seven-story tower that didn't survive the earthquake, and most of the rooms higher up in the home were caved in. Now, during that earthquake, Sarah was in the daisy room, and it was called that because of the flower designs on the windows, which was like, that sounds beautiful.

Now, that room didn't suffer any damage, and she was unharmed luckily, but the workers had to dig through all the rubble around the room to get her out of there. Oh geez. And all of the rooms that were destroyed were just cordoned off. So like they still are there, they're just cordoned off. What? Yes. Now Sarah was really upset about some of the projects started in the areas of that side of the house, that they would never be finished.

And she was like, no, like, I don't want to destroy them. Just leave it. Oh, which is quite, quite. Yeah, that's, that's scary. It's super scary. It's a little weird. Now, a few years after the earthquake, Sarah bought another home in Atherton

so that she could be closer to her family, specifically, her sister Isabel and her niece Daisy, and her health was worsening. It's reported around this time is when she slowed down construction on the mansion. So people think that she stayed there forever and worked on the mansion every single day, but there were periods of time where the construction slowed down. Okay. And on September 5th, 1922, Sarah passed away at her beloved mansion, the Winchester

Mr. Wast, or to her, the Yanadavia. Yanadavia? I just like love that she named it that. It sounds like Karami. It does. Like Gomez saying it to Morticia. I love that. You're still very much in that vibe.

I am. Now, when Word spread around the mansion that day, construction came to an abrupt halt. It said that people left half-hamored nails in the walls and just dipped. They were just like, well, this job's over. Because, like, I mean, really, they were building more things to go. They didn't go anywhere. Yeah. Like, they're like, why are we doing this? Yeah.

Now, Sarah willed everything in the home to her niece Daisy, as well as $3,000 and an income from the trust of $200,000 for the rest of her life. Wow. I was like, whoa. Whoa, I think it's Sarah. Yeah. No, she didn't leave a beneficiary

for the actual home. So Sarah's trustee union trust company of San Francisco was tasked with selling the house. Oh wow. And on September, 16.C. Barnett, a real estate developer bought the mansion, and he subdivided the property, actually. One piece was sold mostly for the land,

and then a man named John Brown showed up with interest in buying the plot with the mansion. Allegedly, he was the only interested buyer. Nobody else wanted to buy the house, so it was his. Wow. He signed a 10- year lease in May of 1923 with the option to purchase the mansion at the end of the lease. Okay.

So it was like, that's an interesting way of doing that. That's cool. Now John Brown had big plans for what would be formally known as Yanada Viyah. He was the investor of the Backety Back Scenic Railway, which is a roller coaster. That is now more known as the Shutter roller coaster.

The Shutter. It was one of the first roller coaster, excuse me, it was the first roller coaster that allowed the cars to go all the way up to a dead end and then reverse backward with no kind of mechanical switching mechanisms. Like he invented that and patented it. Yeah, patented it.

Patented it. Sorry to say that. Patented it. Now his vision for the mansion was to build an amusement park inside. What? The church would have been so much fun. I would have hated that though. Yeah, I would have hated it because it's not.

That would have been so far off from what? What's there on it? Yeah, exactly. But imagine a rollercoaster going through the Winchester mystery house I hate I'm not an amusement park kid. Yeah, you never have been never will be you'd be like F I that would do nothing for me and I'd literally be looking through that being like this is such a spooky fucking house Why did you put a goddamn roller coaster through it like I'd be so angry?

Well luckily that idea never came to fruition because of local restrictions. And the fact that there were so many people like you that wanted to go inside and just see the house for what it was and then see the architecture. It's spooky beauty. So rumors about this at the house had gone on forever and ever, even while Sarah was still alive. And actually in 1895, while she was still alive,

the first publication was released that painted Sarah as this mad woman who had no choice but to keep building. It was released by the San Jose Evening News, and it said, quote, 10 years ago, the Hanson residence was apparently ready for occupancy, but improvements in additions are constantly being made for this reason. It is said that the owner of the house believes that when it's entirely completed, she will die. So it's like, okay. And it was like, but that's not how it went. No, exactly. So... But because... Debunk. Yeah, debunked. And just wait until we get to like the very end of this because you're going to be like,

yeah, no, not at all. Yeah. But because there was so much public demand to see this house, like people have been hearing rumors like that for decades. Yeah, of course. They were like, what the hell is this house? And I mean, if you go to the house, it really does support, like you're like,

what's wild, what's going on? Wild, exactly. So John Brown and his wife, Manny, decided that instead of doing the amusement park, they'd simply do the tours of the home that they claimed at this point was haunted. Because around this time, as when haunted houses really started becoming a thing.

Yeah. And people realized that if you marketed something as haunting, people would come off. Well, the fucking wood would have to go and see it. Sarah passed away in the house. So you got a story to go along with it. Exactly. Now, the land surrounding the house became Winchester Park.

So people could have like picnics and shit out there, like, you know, just see the land. And Mamie Brown was actually the first person when Chester Park, so people could have like picnics and shit out there, you know, just see the land. And Mamie Brown was actually the first person to give a tour of the home and people fucking loved it. They started traveling from all over the globe to get a glimpse at the house. One of its more famous tourgoers was Harry Houdini.

Hell yeah, it was. So on Halloween night in 1924, Harry went to the home on a mission to debunk the haunted theory because he actually didn't believe in ghosts, which I didn't know. Yeah, I think I read that and was like as Shocker. He was like, you know, in the Gisheans. I feel like those two things go, they don't, but I feel like they do go. No, it just like, it feels like they should. Yeah, it's just like fun and magical.

You should not be a skeptic, but he was. He was on a literal tour to debunk the fact that ghosts in general. He was like, no, they're just a figment of human imagination. Now, no one knows exactly what happened with that night, other than the fact that Harry went to the house with two other magicians and, quote,

left with more questions than answers. Like literally all the publications were saying that. And it's alleged that Harry spent the most time in the sands room. But over the years, it's been heavily debated whether or not that room was actually even used for sands' or not. And I think it just became legend over the years.

Yeah. But regardless of what happened that night, it was Harry Houdini who actually helped solidify the name Winchester Mystery House. He was one of the people that first called it that. Wow. Wow. I mean, that makes sense.

And he literally like wrote about the house later and referred to it as the mystery house. I was like, that's kind of cool. That's what it is. It is. The mystery. Yeah. Now, another legend debated over the years is. It. It. It is. It is cases to support their claims. 13 step staircases are actually like a very standard. Like, like, on a mom's house has 13 steps. And I'm pretty sure

yours does too. Yeah, I think it does. But the house also had like 13 bathrooms and 13 windows in the bathroom. So they're trying to like really wild. And spooky. It's spooky. Some sources even go as far as saying that Sarah signed her will 13 times and that the will had 13 parts. I'm like, that's really, it's really, really reaching, but it's like, I don't know. But also I'm like, did it? Did it? I want to know.

Like, I don't think so. Debunk it. Even still today though, they really lean into the whole 13 thing like on the tour. Every Friday the 13th, the bell in the home, tolls 13 times on the 13th hour, 1 p.m. I love that. I think it's comfortable. Like get spooky with it. Yeah, like that's what like at the tour shore.

I feel like Sarah would have loved it. Maybe. Like, because it's like becoming the, it's like this house is like something that everybody loves and doesn't understand. That's true. I feel like she's like, yeah, it's actually really loves and doesn't understand. That's true. I feel like she's like, yeah. It's actually really, you don't need to understand it. It's really funny that you say that because I have a quote from like a historian later

who like loves this house and like really became involved with Sarah's story and something that you said was like actually really similar to what she said. Oh really? Oh that's funny. I'll say it later. But skeptics including those who actually knew Sarah and spent time with her, they say that those claims

are ridiculous and that a lot of the 13 paraphernalia, if you will, was installed after Sarah died when John and Manny Brown were trying to market the house as the haunted petitions. Which I'm like, yeah, probably. Yeah, but it's still fun. Yeah. Now, they have explanations for the other crazy legends that have been sculpted over the years.

One of the first things debunkt was the trip to the medium that started this whole story. Now nobody can say that she definitely didn't go to a medium because like, you don't know what Sarah was doing in her off time. Yeah. But Sarah's doctor was actually the one to suggest that she move out west to better her health. And he suggested the move not only for her health,

but also so that she immersed herself in some kind of hobby that would spark joy because she was really suffering with all the loss that she had gotten. Yeah. And if you're living on the East Coast, you know seasonal depression is a thing, a huge thing. And also during the consumptive era of things, they would often tell people to move closer west, like into those like, sorry, into those places with like, you like, I'm sorry. Oh, it's okay. Into those places with like, you know,

I mean, not necessarily like California and all that. Yeah. Like to places where you could get like different air or like, you know, just a different vibe and they thought that was going to be the thing to cure the consumption. Well, the other thing is that she actually suffered from rheumatoid arthritis

and warmer weather is sometimes known to alleviate the pain associated with that. So not only that, but this too, I think all of it. Exactly. And then the other thing was obviously, like I said, she was going through a lot and the doctor knew how much she loved architecture.

And he remembered specifically how happy she had been when she was building the house with Will. So he was like, go out there and like, get into that hobby, like, you know, build a house. Build a house, like be in the warmer weather, things will go better. And you wonder if he was like, go out there and like get into that hobby, like, you know, build a house. Build a house, like be in the warmer weather, things will go better. And you wonder if he was like,

just, you know, keep building. Keep building, it's gonna keep you healthy, it's gonna keep you happy. And then like, he was like, he wasn't saying, like, keep building forever or you'll die, but over the years, it kind of turned into that. Right. And then the other thing is, her rheumatoid arthritis

is another thing that people point to when it become when it comes to the construction Especially the staircases that were built with steps only inches apart That was because it so Sarah would be able to climb the stairs That makes sense because she couldn't lift her feet like to high out around and eventually she actually Had elevators installed that would help as well with that. There you go. And then as for the passageways, skeptics say that they were simply used for the servants to get around quickly and easily. Yeah.

But I'm like, what about the skylights and the floor? Yeah, what about the stairways to nowhere? And what about the cabinet that opens up to 30 different rooms? And what about the door that leads to the outside where you bust your booty if you walk out of it? So it's like, you really can look at this house either way. You can. There's things you can definitely be like, yeah, for sure. Like that makes sense.

Yeah. All of that made sense. But those other things, I'm like, explain it. Exactly. Well, it makes sense. Make it make sense. Yeah. In Skeptic or Not, there are definitely reported hauntings at the Winchester Mystery House.

Yeah. And we are going to talk about all of those, right? Oh, good. Okay. So in the early 90s, the house became vacant, but the city quickly was able to take ownership of the property and they made staff headquarters on site so that the place could be looked after like 24 or 7. Because if this place became abandoned for too long, all women's such a shame.

Yeah. So I'm glad that they did that. But the staff says that they've experienced more than their fair share of ghost encounters and experiences and the people that take tours experience weird shit too. staff says that they've experienced more than their fair share of ghost encounters and experiences and the people that take tours experience weird shit too. They specifically say that the third floor is the most haunted and that's the reason why they won't bring tourgoers up there. Really?

Like they will not bring tourgoers up to the third floor. Part of me wonders if that's where like the rooms are that got destroyed. Thank you. Thank you. That you, earthquake. That's literally what I was just about. I was going to be like, could that be? Because... Rob's, but they're just saying, like, we can't bring you up there,

because it's so spooky, you can't handle it. It's like, or you might get hurt. Or it's like, that's a liability. Yeah, insurance doesn't come from that. I was literally just going to say that. But they also say allegedly, that's where the servants quarters were. And that area of the house is so isolated that you can't hear anything else going on

in the rest of the house when you're standing there, which I felt that when I read it. Like I can see the chilly, willy, spooky. Now the first and most widely reported ghost is that of a mustache man who is seen on tours usually in the basement working with a wheelbarrow or in the ballroom seemingly working on the fireplace. We love a beautiful ghostly mustache-y old man, obviously. Now people comment all

the time to the tour guides like later on like I loved that guy. Like that was so cool of you guys to have that actor. That was so fucking authentic. I appreciate it so much. The authenticity in this place. You even made him transparent. It was wild. How did you guys do that? Great special effects. There's never been an actor hired for the tours.

No, no. So people have come to realize that this man they see in the home is actually an old pictures dating back years and years to when there was a team of people working at Sarah's home. Oh, shit. And he's referred to as Clyde. And he's literally in pictures.

I'll post the one. Clyde! I believe he's to the far right in the picture that I'll post. Oh my God, I love it. He seems to be a pretty chill guy, and he looks like super happy. He gotta be your name's Clyde. Yeah, like, come on.

He's adorable. Yeah, one of the other things that happens pretty constantly is people will feel their shirt or pant leg being tugged or they'll feel something brush up against them when they haven't bumped into anything or anyone. Same at Velisca. Yeah, I know. It's funny.

I was thinking that there was a man working on the house one morning, like getting things ready for the tours later that day. And he was up on a ladder. And he thought that someone had tapped him on his shoulder. So obviously he turns around and no one was there. So he got back to work. He was like, whatever. Like maybe I'm just creeped out at this house.

But then suddenly he felt a whole last hand pressed up against his back and he literally was like, okay, I am done. I'm not even going to finish my tasks. I will see you never. You just get out of there. But like in my opinion, I think that's just a helpful ghost concerned with ladder safety. Yeah, we're just saying like, is like, don't fall, sweet boy. Be careful up there.

You got this, they're like, thank you. Seemulls booged out here. Yeah, like can't you picture like an older woman just being like, they're there. Just hold and you're back. Stay up there. We're both making this motion. I wish you could see.

We're both just have our hands outstretched towards each other like a high five. And like pretending to like keep it this man up on the ladder. It's okay. It's good. Yeah, we're like tapping me in visible air. Like they're there. Yeah, but he was nodding to it. He didn't think it was this one.

It's a color cute as we did. Yeah, you know what happened. He was like, I got to go. I get to go. I get to go. Other people who work at the home have even lived there actually and they report similar experiences. This one couple called Debbie and Ernie were sleeping in their staff quarters on their

first night and they woke up to the sound of an alarm clock going off. So they're like, oh, fuck, like, that's annoying. But it just kept going and going and going and they couldn't figure out where it was coming from to turn it off. And then eventually I guess it just turned off but it continued to happen every other night. Oh, I would hate that.

Hate it. Because whenever my alarm goes off and it's like, you know how you can hear it in your dream. Like you're in the middle of a dream and you're like, what is that noise? God, like it's just like a random, and it always makes me so angry when I wake up. I'm like, damn it! Like, you know, just couldn't stop. No, that's a thing like it's just like a random, and it always makes me so angry when I wake up. I'm like, damn it!

And you know, just couldn't stop. No, that's a thing like how suck. And you know it would make you like even angry or probably if it was between like three and four a.m. That would bump me out a lot. That's usually when this happened at this house. Yeah, that would really bump me out. Yeah, I'd be like, ooh, I'm scared.

I'm not ready, I'm scared. Every other night at three or four a.m. I'd also just be like really annoyed because I'd be like, I have like three more hours left to sleep while you're doing this to me. I'm deep in room. How dare you? I'm in a cycle right now. How dare you? Now Debbie personally had an experience one night. She was sitting on the phone just talking to her sister and she felt a hand graze across her head. They seem so lovely. I think they do too. I think it's Sarah. I just feel like they seem very lovely. I think they do too. I think it's Sarah just being like. I'm really like.

They seem very lovely. Like ghosts. An older lady just like taking care of you. Like that's such like a G-Maw thing to do. It really is just, you know, like, just brush your hair. I wish you could see my red hair. That's so great.

Just like we're just stroking the first time. We're like brushing our own heads right now. Like, you know, you just do this. But yeah, she was like, it really freaked me the fuck out. Oh really nice. But they stayed there. And then the couple's dog who they would walk around at night just to yeah, she was like, it really freaked me the fuck out. It's really nice. But they stayed there. And then the couple's dog who they would walk around at night

just to make sure everything was locked up and nobody had gotten in. Well, man, they would have asked. That would be the cis. Especially in the Winchester mystery house. It's 24,000 square feet. And I'm a crazy person when it comes to that. So I would just be up all night.

I'm going to every single thing to double check it. Imagine how many simply safes they would have. Imagine. Like, setting up that house for simply safe would take months. Months. Literally months. Yes.

But so yeah, that was like their job and they'd take their dog around just for protection. And apparently there was one specific hallway that the dog refused to go down. And even when like Ernie the guy there would shine, like shine this flashlight down there, the dog would still like quiver while walking away. And be just like super nervous and like stay right

by Ernie's side, just be like super freaked out. Animals know man, they do. Now another staff member, a maintenance man named Denny, he like was tasked with going out to the water tower and things like that, making sure everything was good. And one day he was out in the water tower, and he was really pissed off because he heard footsteps when he walked into the water tower, and he was like, did somebody fucking come in here?

Like, that's so dangerous. Why are you in a water tower? Like, that's incredible. You mean maniac. So he called out saying to the trespasser, like, you know, this is really dangerous. You need to come down like at the hell out of here. Yeah.

And he kept hearing the footsteps, like, get quicker and quicker, like scatter away. And he's like, this person is really trying to test me. I really try to test my patients. Ficker on and find out. So it's a three-story building. And he kept going up the stairs and the footsteps kept getting ahead of him,

ahead of him, ahead of him quicker and quicker. That's creepy. So he's chasing these footsteps, and eventually he makes his way all the way outside to the roof. You know, like the ladder around the outside. He freaked me out. As soon as he got out there, the footsteps stopped, and there was nobody there.

And there's no other way out of that building. It's through that one door, like jumping off the building, which clearly nobody had done. Wow. And he was like, I was so freaked out. Like I got this whole feeling over my body. That was just like creepy.

That's so creepy. So cool. Imagine just like chasing footsteps and then you don't ever find the source. I'd be like, goodbye. I'd eat myself off the tower. Enjoy. I'm kidding.

I'm kidding. Again, footsteps are also heard coming to and from Sarah's bedroom. And once in a while, people will be giving like a tour showing the room that Sarah had been trapped in during the earthquake. And while one time this happened, and the tour guide was like just talking about the earthquake

and talking about Sarah's room, and she heard this loud sigh coming from the hallway. Like somebody went, oh, so she paused the discussion because she was like, oh, maybe somebody's late and like is ticked off that, like they're missing the tour or something.

Yeah. So she stuck her head under the hallway and there was no one there. And she did, though, see a small shadowy figure making its way around a corner. Now what's funny see a small shadowy figure making its way around a corner. Now, what's funny about that small shadowy figure is that Sarah herself was a very petite woman.

She was only about 4-10 and less than 100 pounds. Oh, wow. So she could have been that very small figure. And maybe she was annoyed that they had the daisy room unsealed because she had actually sealed it after the earthquake because she was so freaked out by what had happened. She didn't want to be in that room anymore. So maybe she was like, because she was like ticked off that they were in there. She's like, she's like, I don't want to see that.

Yeah, households. Yeah, households. Wow. Or maybe she was just annoyed in general with like the mystery that's around at the house now. But again, how delightful is she? She's pissed off and she's just like, yeah, like, man, Sarah, you're just wonderful. I think she was just so pure. But I mentioned earlier that even during her life, the rumors of Sarah and her house, like, oftentimes, they just made her out to be completely insane.

Yeah, and that's not cool. There was one day, I guess, that a newspaper ran a story about her in the house, like oftentimes, they just made her out to be completely insane. Yeah, and that's not cool. There was one day, I guess, that a newspaper ran a story about her in the house and, like, the labyrinth on the medium. And she was so annoyed by it that she asked everyone if they would mind leaving for the day, because she just wanted to be alone. Oh. Because she was, like, ticked her off. Oh.

It makes me so sad. It makes me sad. So, I'm like, yeah, like, I think maybe she is just like, it's not a mystery house, it's just my work, it's just my work, man. You know? Now the thing about Sarah is that throughout the years, she really, I said it like a million times, but she's painted as this lady who's trying

to keep these evil spirits confused. Like the whole story is wild. But really, a lot of people think that she was just a wealthy woman who made architecture her hobby. Yeah, you know, there are absolutely a ton of unfinished projects though and like really peculiar things about the house. I'm not sure if I believe that the whole purpose was to keep the evil spirits at bay, but I can definitely recognize that there is like some weird stuff going on in the house.

I could see that. Things that don't make sense. Yeah. But at the same time, I also think it's really important to note how philanthropic Sarah was as a person because she was painted to be like such like a crazy woman. Yeah, so I just want to talk about some of the great things that she did while she was still alive. She actually funded the project of a hospital that would take care of people suffering from tuberculosis

and she made it clear to this hospital that she wanted every person to be able to get treated at this hospital regardless of their economic status. So it was like, I want beds for everybody. And the hospital honored William and was named William Wurt Winchester Annex for tuberculosis. Wow. It's not around anymore,

but the fund that Sarah created supports the Winchester Chest Clinic to this day. Hmm. And then historian Jane Bollum of the Winchester Mystery House said the thing that kind of like reminded me of what you said earlier. She said, I think Sarah was trying to repeat this experience by doing something that they both loved.

She had a social conscious and she did try to give back. The house in itself was her biggest social work of all. Yeah. She was like handy. She was almost like gifting something to people. To society. It's like, here you go.

Yeah. Figure it out. And I think it's kind of like a shame that people are like, whoa, she was such a crazy person. Yeah. I think maybe she's had like a little bit of fun with this. And like, regardless,

what a gift she gave to everybody. A people's love it. It makes people happy. It's like something people are constantly talking about and constantly pondering over. And all over, like the from all over the world to go to see this house that she created. And she was literally the main architect of.

Yeah, it makes sense. I think she's an icon. I think she's too. The Winchester Mystery House says of her, she is known as a woman of independence, drive, and courage and who lives on as a legend. And her beloved villa is now an official San Jose landmark, and it's made its way to the top of a ton of lists, including a top destination, according to USA Today, a most mysterious place on Earth, according to MSN. Top 10 haunted place, according to the travel. A top haunted destination according to the travel channel channel.

And a top 10 best haunted destination according to USA today. Wow. So like, look at that countless lists. And I mean, not for nothing, the whole like, keeping the evil spirits away thing. Could have a little merit and so could the like, sayance and the medium and all that. Because I was thinking about the time period between like the 1840s I wanna say in 1920s

was when spiritualism was like, huge, huge. So it was like she could have been into that. Absolutely. Like hard. And then that's literally like right in her for a whole entire life period right there.

And I think people maybe that's kind of like where the medium stuff came from, because I think maybe she was like a follower. She could have been into it. Frances Bacon and all that other stuff. She could have been into spiritualism and like, exactly. It mediums were huge at that point.

And maybe the house really is like a puzzle and like an invention. So there's a little bit of, I think that's really cool. I love that whole theory. I love it. And I think it has a little, and it doesn't make her crazy at all exactly It makes her part of the time and part of like the the like you know atmosphere of the time Yeah, and she had a lot of loss in our life

And since she poured herself into this yeah, and it would make sense that she was looking for answers and looking for closure And looking for comfort from beyond You know actually so all of it makes sense and none of it makes her crazy looking for answers and looking for closure and looking for comfort from beyond. Exactly. So all of it makes sense and none of it makes her crazy. All of it makes her also. All of it makes sense and none of it makes sense and Sarah is the best. I'm down for Sarah. So that is the Winchester Mystery House, my guys.

Wow, that was really interesting. I did not know like any of that. I didn't know any of that either. But it was really fascinating. And I've like listened to like a couple other things on the Winchester Mystery House. It's been like years. Yeah. But I was like, wow, I didn't know a lot of that. I didn't know any of that either. And I've listened to a couple other things on the Winchester Mystery House. It's been years. Yeah. But I was like, wow, I didn't know a lot of that.

Yeah, that was really interesting. She was super philanthropic. And definitely go read those books because they had a ton of information about her. Yeah, we'll link them for sure. For sure. Because we love a good book. But in the meantime, we hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep it weird. And definitely keep it so weird that you build a Winchester Mystery House and we're all all over the world. And I have a bunch of Mystery Houses everywhere. And we can it so weird that you build a winter-ister mystery house and we're all all over the world. Let's just have a bunch of mystery houses everywhere. We can all just try to figure out what everybody was trying to do building these things and just be like, oh my god, they were crazy.

No, they weren't. They were philanthropic. And they were amazing. And like, what is that house? Is it spiritualism? Is it a medium? Is it a sandstorm? I don't know.

Skylights on the floor. Please build more of these. Because that's awesome. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to morbid, early, and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.