Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Beth Sandland (MumLife) On Trauma and Loss

Episode Date: May 8, 2022

TW: This episode features Loss, Birth Trauma, NICU and Miscarriage, viewer discretion is advised.This week we sit down with Beth Sandland an award winning blogger, writer, photographer and mum to Ziggy. She takes pride in travelling and shows her audience how to travel with a child and on a budget. She is honest and raw with her audience, experiencing loss and heartache in 2019 writing about her miscarriages. We chat about baby loss, travelling with a baby, PTSD and mental health before and after birth and her own birth story.Follow Beth @bethsandland and @motherhoodedit------A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I feel like I should put a trigger warning at the beginning of this podcast because we are going to be discussing birth trauma, loss, miscarriage, parenting after loss and NICU so if this doesn't sound like it's something that you want to listen to right now then please feel free to skip to any other podcast episodes um but i am really excited and actually a bit nervous or apprehensive to talk about these topics i'm really particularly excited about my guest um she's one of my favorite people to follow online number one all her content is like very beautiful but more to the point she's very honest and open about all aspects of motherhood she's a multi award-winning blogger and influencer she actually won cosmopolitan influence of the year in 2019 for best travel influencer so i feel like we can definitely get some tips about traveling with

a baby but also like what what a rubbish time to be a travel influencer just before a pandemic. She is the founder of an online magazine which celebrates modern motherhood. It's called The Motherhood Edit, which is an amazing platform as well. I love the strap line, no mother left behind or no mum left behind. I should probably know the tagline before I do the introductions. But that is a little insight into my mind today like mum life and stress and most importantly she is a mum to a one-year-old adorable son called Ziggy. It's Beth Sandland. Hello thank you so much that was such an amazing introduction I felt like I've

got to live up to it now. You know it's. I was just saying it is the perfect surname for being a travel influencer. I mean, I know that your role has switched slightly due to pandemic and motherhood, but Sandland is like the most fantastic surname for someone who loves to travel. Yeah, I know. I mean, I think people thought I'd made it up for a while and that it was just sort of a blog name. But no, it is or was my surname. I am married now and did change my name, but sort of kept it online. And it's quite catchy, even if even if nobody ever knows how to spell it or pronounce it. It really beats Ashley James. I feel like that's quite like the most boring surname. Oh, my goodness. Not at all.

I think I always wanted something much simpler. Have you traveled yet with Ziggy, by the way? Yes. So we took him to Cyprus in September when he was about five and a half months. And then we went to Portugal in October when he was about six and a half months. And then we've done a few trips around the UK. I actually took him up to Scotland in a camper van around the highlands when he was about three months old and it was amazing but i look back on that now and i think you were absolutely mental what was i doing in a camper

van with sort of 10 11 week old baby they can't like roll around and like it's probably like the perfect time to travel. Yeah, we did say if we did anything like that again, we'd have to get some sort of like massive RV or something that he could explore. Because somehow we all kind of crammed into this little VW van and slept on top of each other. Funny enough, we really want to do the Highlands and I'm sort of fantasizing about um going to Australia because I've never been before and Tommy's aunt lives out there and I really want to go before we have to pay for ALF because obviously once they come to I was like oh my god we've got two years to enjoy the free travel we've done no travel well um you know we've I've actually been lucky enough to go

on two holidays and Tommy's mum lives inance so i've experienced flying with the baby but the australia one tommy thinks i'm absolutely mad oh my goodness we we love australia we spent sort of two to three months out there um in 2018 2019 and actually one of my best friends is out there and she's getting married at some point in the kind of coming year or so and i'm really hoping it's before ziggy's too not to make this about me but it's actually really selfish if you delay the wedding for another year it really really is do you think because tom and i um i'm not going to say argue over this topic but we definitely have like different ideas of what travel now is with a baby because tommy's always like no we need we should stay in like an all-inclusive hotel because everything's looked after it means that we get to relax a bit more because there's like baby clubs

or a crash or whatever it is whereas i'm like i want to be let's go to costa rica let's take a camper van around australia um and he and then but then when i think about it like so even for example i really wanted to go to Mexico or Bali and Tommy was like but what are we going to do with the baby and I was like play in the sand do you think you can still kind of yeah I think you can I think I'm definitely more team Ashley on that one in terms of my own travel style so the first international trip we did with Ziggy was an all inclusive. We went to Cyprus and it was really lovely because for both of us, it was our first time out of the country since pre

pandemic. So we weren't completely sure how everything was going to go anyway with travel and testing and all those kind of considerations, let alone taking a baby as well. So that was really lovely because once we arrived, we didn't have to think about anything. And we actually did put him in the nursery, which I hadn't kind of preempted doing at five and a half months old. But we did a sort of tour of the resort and they showed us and it was so lovely. And it was really, really nice to be honest, we have to put him in an air con nursery where he had one-to-one playtime whilst we went and lay in the sun, had a cocktail in the pool. So now in hindsight, I have no guilt about doing that because I think

we did come back and have a holiday with the only caveat being that he slept horrendously. And so I did have so many days where I woke up and I thought, oh my goodness, my mental health is just shot right now. I'm so sleep deprived, but I'm in this beautiful place so I can't complain about it you know I'm on holiday so I think that's the only tricky thing about traveling with a you know with a baby or children is I see lots of quotes and stuff saying going on holiday with children is just parenting in a new location and I think well it is but it also kind of can still be a holiday or it has been in our experience. And when we took him to Portugal in October, we got a car and we drove around a lot and we did a lot more kind of sightseeing, touristy stuff. And that was more suited to me and my holiday style.

And it was in a way easier with him, I think, because we kind of just got up and got on with it. So that's what we plan to do in Amsterdam next week. We're giving Eurostars. It's four hours. It will disrupt his routine a little bit on those travel days. But aside from that, I'm kind of thinking it's not going to be much different to our city living in London. We're just going to be in Amsterdam instead. So I'm really looking forward to kind of putting him in the pram or in a carrier and seeing the sights, taking him out. We eat out with him. I've kind of always just tried to do, to try to fit him into our lives, I suppose,

rather than change it really drastically around him with the caveat that a baby obviously does drastically change your life. I always find that really funny. I think I was speaking to somebody yesterday I can't even remember who it was but they were like yeah you've just got to not change that by the way they they don't have a baby but they were like yeah you just shouldn't change your life for them should you they need to work around you and in my head I was like god I remember saying that as well like you have no idea it was really important to remember that um because it is so easy to get caught up in like routines and which by the way i understand why because let's be honest like you said being sleep deprived is not the one and anything you can do to try and help that and funny enough

that was um when we went to mauritius in october for tommy's dad's 60th and that was actually when i realized that i um how bad my mental health was because i remember being sitting in paradise and just feeling so low and i was like what is wrong with me i'm in paradise and i feel i'm having like all these like horrible thoughts and you know really dark thoughts and that's when i was like there is actually something not right with me yeah i think it was similar similar for me and in Cyprus obviously that's a really you know it was a privileged position to be in to kind of have that realization and the sun sunshine somewhere glorious but I had the exact same thing I woke up thinking I should be really happy here this is lovely I'm on holiday it's our first family holiday abroad but I feel

awful and I'm so tired that my brain just feels, you know, completely useless. And it was just definitely a moment of clarity. I remember voice noting. She's actually a sleep coach. And I remember voice noting her saying, just help me and crying into a voice note on WhatsApp to this complete stranger from a kind of five-star all-inclusive resort. So I think sometimes it is those moments that bring you the real clarity.

I'm actually going to ask you because one of the questions I get asked a lot is for tips with traveling with a baby. So especially on the plane, have you found any good nuggets of wisdom that you can share? So he was quite young when we last went on a plane with him. He was sort of, I guess, six and a half months old, but he will be 13 months on the Eurostar next week. And I'm planning on packing lots of snacks and I'm going to get him some toys that are kind of, he's got some favorite toys. So I'll take those, you know, small things.

He's got this amazing one that his godmother made for his birthday in our flat. But it's obviously a sort of a large one that's propped up against the wall. So I'm going to get him one of those busy board wallets because he loves fiddling with things. If in doubt, screens. He's really into various things on YouTube. So I'm going to download some stuff in advance so that we've got some offline.

But also, I think it's just managing expectations, really. And it's remembering that you care far more than other people do I think so much of the anxiety around traveling with a baby taking them on something like a long train journey or a plane is worrying about what other people will think if they make noise and actually children make noise that's fine most of the time you filter it out I flew back from Mexico last week I went away without Ziggy for my mum's wedding and there was a toddler on the plane who at times was completely screaming. And I felt for his parents because I knew they would be stressing about it. But I also very much could put my headphones in and carry on with what I was doing.

And it didn't, you know, it didn't impact my journey. And so I think it's important to remember, actually, that your child's cries and misbehavior and whatever or just you know normal toddler behavior is so much more you know so much sort of louder and more confronting to you than it is to anyone else yeah and also people do have headphones and they do get to like sleep and watch films so i feel not that much sympathy i was like i feel more sorry for the parents having to try and entertain the baby yeah we found the busy board really helpful um it was someone on instagram that recommended a busy board and i haven't done this because i forgot to buy them in time but um i saw live purpose recommending pom-poms and putting them in a bottle yeah and i feel like that's a really

good one and alpha was actually really really good on our long haul flight. I actually found the short haul flight harder, especially because they had the seatbelt sign on the whole time. So like trying to keep a child on your knee for an hour and a half, that was more challenging. Whereas we took a night flight and it was great because he pretty much just went to sleep. I mean, it was pretty horrific for me trying to sit and sleep

with a baby on me, but I would take a sleeping baby over anything else so yeah and I think I mean this is perhaps one where people fall either into one camp or the other but for me it's packing as light as possible as well I can't think of anything more stressful than trying to sort of wrangle a baby or a toddler and then having loads of bags and loads of luggage. Equally, I know other people feel really assured by going away and taking as many home comforts for the baby as possible, all the equipment. Whereas on the trips that we've done, whether that's been to see family or when we took a camper van to Scotland or flights next week on the Eurostar, we will pack as light as possible, including for him.

Because for me, that's the one less thing to think about. You know, I love baby wearing. I love the carrier still for that hands free, especially when you're kind of going through an airport or a station or something and you just need them in one place. If I could bestow a little travel tip and lots of people get travel prams i actually find that i much prefer taking my big pram mainly because of the storage i feel like travel prams yeah it's great but they have like no storage on them and especially if you're like on a beach

holiday you kind of want to like take everything down to the beach um and put get having a baby carrier that you can put them in so when you have to drop the pram off and then obviously you pick it up when you get your suitcase, having them in a baby carrier, it just like makes the process so much easier. So we did the opposite. We do have a travel pram

and really liked being able to literally take it on the plane and put it in the overhead locker and have it immediately at the other end. But what we tended to do is I would sort of wear him and then the pram would have our bags on it or whatever, which I suppose isn't quite what it's intended for. But it's why I think backpacks are really good. Even when we go away next week,

it's definitely not the sexiest of luggage, but to get up to the pancreas or the cheek or whatever, sometimes thinking about what luggage you're taking can be quite, can kind of make it either a much more streamlined or a much more stressful experience it's really interesting like even the fact that my tip is the opposite of your tip like really do what you think will be right for you um because i'm also definitely an overpacker i don't think i've ever successfully managed to keep my luggage to the luggage allowance. But I did want to kind of rewind all the way to before Ziggy, which is probably like a distant memory now. It's so funny, isn't it? Because when you're pregnant, you can't imagine who they are and what they'll be.

But once they're there, you can't imagine life before them and not knowing about them. But I know that you're so wonderfully open about baby loss, which is actually something I experienced two weeks ago, which to be honest, I feel really awkward talking about, but I want to talk about because I know it's so important to talk about these things, to be able to push past the kind of like taboos and stigmas around it. And also I know that, they're kind of like taboos and stigmas around it. And also, I know that, you know, you suffered after a traumatic birth with PTSD, and I, as well as obviously Ziggy being in an ICU. And I feel like these things are so common, but aren't often talked about. And I think a lot of the reason people don't talk about them is out of fear of scaring, like mums to be. So do you mind, like talking about what it was like for you yeah

well first of all i'm really sorry about your experience and you know i think there are kind of there's no right or wrong way to deal with something like loss whether it was expected or not um and you know some people like to keep that really close and that's fine other people find i guess a catharsis of in sharing but there is this thing of breaking the stigma as well but I always feel like it's really important that people know that it's not their responsibility to use their own loss or their own trauma you know to help others they don't have to do that if my my kind of motives I guess is sharing definitely aren't completely altruistic that's my personality I. I'm a sharer. I'm a writer. I'm a talker. And so there was definitely an element of catharsis in it for me. And I guess in also finding other people who had experienced

similar things when I went through loss and then the various other subsequent dramatic times of our lives that we've had. My first sort of trimester pregnancy after loss was, I mean, mentally, to be honest, it was absolutely horrendous. Physically, I was okay. I had very, very few pregnancy symptoms, which I was completely wishing on myself. I felt down a really dark hole of Google and Mumsnet and any other forums and platforms I could find going, you know, seven weeks pregnant, why aren't I sick? Why don't I have this? Why don't I have that? I was really, you know, almost wishing it upon myself wanting to have some level of validation, I guess, for my body because until you've had a scan or until you start showing or you start feeling

movement, I think, I mean, I don't know if you found this, but it's quite hard to believe there's truly anything in there. Yeah. So we actually paid to do a private scan because I was like, but are we sure? Because you're right. Like you don't have a bump. You don't feel anything. You don't. I mean, my boobs were so sore. That's what gave the game away. Because I remember Lucy Meck telling me that her boobs were really sore, which is how she knew knew and she was funny enough was the first person I told even before Tommy because I was like Lucy my boobs hurt and she was like oh but yeah it just felt very surreal I mean I felt really lethargic and tired and I had like my boobs were so sore like I remember having to sleep in like a sports bra but other than that I didn't experience sickness and all of those things and yeah I guess that's why it felt so surreal which is why I was

like I need this like assurance I need to see that there is a baby in there but I think you know a lot of people being pregnant for the first time or second or third or fourth or you know it is a very like anxiety inducing thing. But I can't imagine, especially after loss, what would be your advice if there is any advice that you can give for anyone who is maybe pregnant, who has a history of loss? So I think honestly, the only thing you can do is take it day by day. Zoe Adele, who is the founder of a charity called Saying Goodbye, which is a baby loss charity, has a book out now called Pregnancy After Loss. And it came out when I was, I think, in my second trimester. And I wish I'd had that from the beginning, because essentially every single chapter is a day of pregnancy.

So it really does break it down into day one, day two. So I think that's a kind of a practical tip, I suppose, if somebody is going through pregnancy after loss. But I think any pregnancy, it's such a day by day process. And I know for me, I found comfort in telling people quickly. So I didn't sort of share publicly, but privately, I am really not a fan of the sort of 12 week rule. I think it's really old fashioned. And I think it really encourages the stigma. You know, people shouldn't share until they want to share, even if that's 40 weeks or, you know, a birth announcement. But I don't think anyone's anyone should feel like they shouldn't share. And certainly anyone should feel like they shouldn't share

and certainly shouldn't feel like they shouldn't share because what if something goes wrong? Because actually, from my experience, if something goes wrong, that's when you need the support. And I know in my first pregnancy, which ended up being a missed miscarriage, which we found out at the scan, it was much, much harder to tell the friends and family that I hadn't told because suddenly I was going hey I was pregnant but now I'm not and we've lost a baby and I'm going for surgery next week and for them it was just this complete out the blue I suppose and I also felt like they didn't experience any of the joy around it as well because from my first pregnancy even though it it ended quick you know it ended quickly and not positively I do have happy memories I suppose of telling some of my

best friends of of telling my now husband or you know of of all the planning and scheming you do the minute you kind of get that positive test so for me it was it was harder the people I hadn't shared so with Ziggy when I found out I was pregnant for a third time um it was very immediate there's some close friends I literally sent a photo of the test to uh we were staying with my in-laws at the time so having renovations on our flat and I think we literally walked downstairs went into my mother-in-law and said, oh, I'm pregnant. You know, it was very immediate. But I think that was necessary because I also needed people to know what was going on with

me because I was quite completely unapproachable, I guess, for those first three months. We had a trip away with all my husband's family for my in-laws anniversary. with all my husband's family for my in-laws' anniversary. And I'm sure I was awful company because I was just crippled with fear and anxiety the entire time. And we did have regular scans and that helped me. So we had an early scan on the NHS at kind of six or seven weeks because of the history of miscarriage. We then carried on having private scans every two weeks up to the NHS sort of 13 week one. And for me, I needed that. So that sort of visual,

it's okay, really helps. And it helps me kind of have a date, I suppose, to get from one to the next. But both my husband and I felt like the relief that came from everything's okay so far scan only lasted for a really short period of time as well before all the what ifs and the intrusive thoughts and the fear and anxiety really sort of flared up again. I'm naturally like a totally open book. But I also think you should only ever be comfortable sharing what you are comfortable with. Like you said, there is absolutely no responsibility or pressure to share anything, whatever that may be before the time. But I remember we were just, Tommy and I are both like very excitable characters. So, you know, we'd already picked the name and told all our friends and family the name. And I do remember like a few of my friends kind of like being a bit like slow down I think I was already like planning the nursery and they were a bit like oh just you know try and like maybe she should wait but I was like no what I don't want to I like only want to be excited yeah I mean any

pregnancy is any pregnancy also has its anxieties but I guess the thing with pregnancy after loss is there's a bit of a sense of being robbed I suppose of that kind of unfiltered excitement because ultimately you just don't think it will happen to you you know it's the stats are like one in four but you just assume you won't be the one or one of the ones and so I think that it's a common feeling amongst mothers when they go through pregnancy after loss is kind of, well, some of that joy has kind of been taken from me because suddenly a positive pregnancy test isn't thoughts of names and nurseries. It's like, well, is this baby going to survive? Am I going to bring a healthy baby home at the end of this? And I guess that's probably in the back of the mind of anyone who's pregnant, but it's

so amplified after loss. Saying that, that doesn't mean that there's no joy. Despite having a very anxious, filled, and then high-risk pregnancy, I still loved being pregnant. And I've got so many photos that I cherish and even though it was in lockdown I made memories with friends over zoom and that kind of thing um and there was still you know there was still a lot of excitement in the pregnancy we obviously discussed names as I had a nursery bought things uh so it does you know it's kind of this weird balance, I suppose, of fear and hope. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Do you know what's interesting to me as someone who obviously has recently experienced loss?

I didn't quite realize until I was in it the very different types of miscarriage and all the emotions that that could bring because I have friends um you know who've suffered um loss and a lot of it is that you know they're really trying and they're maybe going through like fertility um battles one of my friends um actually a couple of months ago um one of my best friends suffered loss and she told me actually after so she's she's now pregnant which is amazing and quite far along she's due in the next couple of months and she said to me oh by the way um she sent me a picture of a scan which is obviously so exciting and I was like oh my god I didn't even know it's on the cards this is so great and she's like my first close friend

that's going to be your mom as well so it's just really exciting and um she was like oh yeah well the reason I actually tried is because I had a miscarriage and I was like oh my god I'm so sorry and she was like no it's really weird I don't feel sad about it but then I feel weird about that because she said I wasn't trying and it was really early and I didn't know I was and I think now I know that's called a chemical miscarriage a chemical pregnancy yeah it happens sometimes when it's really really early um i mean i'm no expert but the tommy's website is really great for kind of spelling out all the different types of of loss i mean i think so my first miscarriage was what they call a missed miscarriage which wasn't something i even knew existed before i had one which is essentially

where you think you're pregnant you know the well you are pregnant but the you know the tests are positive and you're carrying on and actually ironically I had way more symptoms in my first pregnancy which ended up not being successful than I did with Ziggy but a missed miscarriage is where essentially you you don't know you've miscarried until you go to the scan because your body still thinks it's pregnant, which is quite difficult. Well, horrendously difficult. But you walk out that appointment and everything's changed and everything's the same. And there are different ways then of managing, essentially. And so you have to sit down with the doctor and say, how are we going to manage this? managing essentially and so you have to sit down with the doctor and say how are we going to manage this and suddenly everything becomes very clinical and there are various options

so there's a surgery which I had where you know effectively they clear out your womb and then they start asking what you want done with the you know it's called all these horrible medical terms um it's sort of like remains of the pregnancy and that kind of thing and it's very suddenly suddenly completely changes thing from the kind of terminology that you would have been using up until that point some people obviously bleed very heavily i know bizarrely i mean i think we just all put ourselves through so many expectations don't we of how you should and shouldn't feel and i know i felt almost like i'd done miscarriage wrong or cheated by going and having surgery rather than having the sort of painful bleeding experience that other women have.

The second time I experienced a loss was earlier and it was completely managed at home. And that was equally, I felt very different. My first, I really, really grieved as a loss. I really felt like I had lost a baby that I had imagined a future for. My second was much more, I was sad about it, but in a, in a different way, it was a bit more of a, oh God, okay, well now what, you know, is there something wrong with me? Is this going to happen again? Do I need to go and get testing? Do I need to? And I guess my thoughts were kind of more practical, more frustrated than they were grief. So I don't think that's the right or wrong way. And I think especially when a pregnancy wasn't necessarily planned, I mean, my first wasn't, it does make it a really kind of complicated experience. experience? I think in my experience, it's almost that I don't, not that I don't have a right for grief. Of course it was sad, but yeah, I didn't know I was until I experienced the loss. So there was no excitement. And I guess how I thought miscarriage should be. And it made me think of

my friend because when she was like, oh no, it wasn't that sad. It was just a bit weird. And obviously it makes you think about the future. And's when she decided okay let's have a baby then and luckily it happened to her um two weeks later um which is amazing but I think that was similar to me that it was more kind of a having to like experience like the really heavy bleeding and everything in private um whilst working and you know I was on the Jeremy Vine show and but also feeling like oh well i don't deserve to feel grief because i didn't even know like we weren't looking forward but then i guess because i have alph it did definitely make me appreciate alph a lot more but it made me start

to like question the future a lot i think i did polls about like only children because i guess in my head i was like what if he is the only one, which is fine. I love like that would be an absolutely okay. But then I was, it made me like really consider like what more, but because I'm 35, I was like, I don't know. It just like, I guess created all of these thoughts. I definitely felt like it wasn't a real loss, if that makes sense. So I didn't have a right to be sad. And also it wasn't as horrific as say like what you went through in your first

pregnancy but I think you know I think everyone's experience is different and I guess from what I've learned over the last couple of years of kind of a much greater exposure I guess to loss especially through something like Instagram there's a really big loss community people share very openly is that there are so many different types and there is no rule book, I guess, as to how you're meant to feel about it. So you could have a really early loss that you didn't even know existed until it happened. And you could still grieve that really deeply. Equally, you might, you know, some people have a miscarriage, for example, and and they don't tell anybody they don't want to talk about it they don't want to kind of um i guess they they sort of uh feel better in i suppose treating it more pragmatically i mean i just think the main

thing is that all those experiences are valid and in talking about them we do we do bring them to light we do help break down stigma but i also i guess we help other people know how to respond because i think that's one of the hardest things and i certainly found i think it's really common i got bombarded with at least you know at least you're young at least you can know you can get pregnant at least it was early at least it was this at least it was that and actually it's well-meaning but completely unhelpful something I always find quite triggering is when people say or not not that people have great births because I hope for a positive birth for everyone and it's actually really reassuring to know how many people have amazing births but what what I find, I think quite triggering is because I was expecting to have this amazing

birth because I was like, oh my God, I feel like really spiritual and connected. And I was doing hypnobirthing. And also it coincided with the time that I qualified to be a life coach. So I just felt like very in tune with my body and the world and my emotions. And I felt very like in control of managing anxiety and all of those things. So I was fully expecting. Also, my mom, my mom, who's a mom of three, was just like, no, actually, honestly, it's not hard. And she had really quick labors. I think with me, everything happened within two hours. So I was really expecting like oh it might be painful

like obviously like pushing I compared it to a marathon like it's hard but there's an end goal and you keep going and then that's it and I kind of also was like oh maybe some people just have like low pain thresholds and that's why it's hard but I'll be fine and I've done hypnobirthing and I find it really hard now when I see people be like I had a positive birth because I did hypnobirthing hypnobirthing allowed me to be in control and I was a bit sometimes I'm like I have to really bite my tongue of not being one of those moms who is like I did hypnobirthing it was awful I did it too I know I have very very similar experience in terms of a lot of the resentment around my birth or some of it anyway came from

being like but I did everything right you know what could I have done differently I was prepared I understood physiological birth I did the hypnobirthing I did the breathing exercises I was also realistic I had a plan a b c d e f I'd love to hear your birth story if you're happy to share it. So, I mean, I have a bit of a rule that I don't go into detail about the birth itself. Kind of two reasons. One, it's just a personal boundary. But also, I do feel like it's not that helpful if anyone's listening and they are currently pregnant. I wouldn't want them to think that's what's going to happen to me. And also, every single birth and every single set of circumstances is so different.

But in a nutshell, my pregnancy was quite high risk. I had lots of periods of reduced movement. I had a stay antenatally when I was, I think, about 32 weeks pregnant. I spent a couple of nights in hospital because he wasn't moving. And they sort of did a scan and he wasn't moving and they sort of did a scan and he wasn't moving in the scan, but his heart rate was okay. So they kind of didn't know what was going on. And that set off a bit of a chain of regular scans, regular checks.

So then I had a scan at 36 weeks where essentially they said, it was in a sort of out of hospital clinic and they said okay you need to go to hospital like now and then at the hospital they said okay you need to have a baby like now so how many weeks were you at this point um I was about 36 and a half he was born at 36 and five so that's another thing which I feel really awkward about is that technically he was premature he was as small as babies born at 33 34 weeks and critically ill but he was also very very very nearly full term so there's kind of um I never feel like I quite sit in you know either camp there but um yeah and to be honest at point, I was still kind of okay. We obviously had our worries, but I still had this feeling towards birth

that like, yeah, I've got this. I can do this. That's fine. Okay. You know, it was a choice of a C-section or an induction. But they very keenly said vaginal is best. You know, and you're young, you're this. And I was like, okay, that's fine.

I can do this. I can still have a positive vaginal birth. I can have a positive induction. This is going to be fine. And basically it was horrendous. And, you know, induction has its place, but I think it's quite overused. And I think perhaps the true implications of what medically you're forcing your body to do isn't spelled out nearly clearly enough for women who are kind of being presented with that option um and probably really interesting now that we've got the Ockenden report I know I personally think in hindsight I should have been offered a c-section knowing that alpha was 9.5 pounds knowing how bad my pelvic girdle pain was um it's interesting it

makes me wonder was i just a target you know what was i another like yes we've got another vaginal birth instead of a c-section great yeah i think it's really really difficult um certainly i found i felt pushed down a certain path quite quickly into the induction process. Cause I think I was in hospital for sort of two or three nights before he was actually born. Um, and quite quickly in the process, I thought I, in my gut, this isn't right. Something is going to go wrong.

This is, you know, this is not okay. And I did voice those feelings, but I didn't really feel like they were, I think I was brushed off as an anxious first time mother a lot. And it's hard because yeah, I did, I did feel completely robbed having, having done all the hypnobirthing, having thought, you know, I've got this. Essentially, everything spiraled very quickly. I was in, you know, I was in an immense amount of pain I went from thinking I can breathe through this to where's the epidural it failed

they put a spinal block in while I had a second epidural and then it ended up being okay he needs to come out this minute we're bringing you know do you mind if we give you a bit of help with an instrumental birth? You know, yeah, okay, fine, whatever.

To an entire football team flooding into the room and let's put all the floodlights on. And this is like, oh my goodness. And something I worked through in therapy, I went through EMDR therapy was, you know, it was an image of being led on my back on a hospital bed, like a patient, legs and stirrups, with just an entire sea of faces that I didn't know and hadn't seen before. And I think there's some really interesting kind of research by the Birth

Trauma Association that basically shows that most birth trauma comes from how you're spoken to or how you feel like you've been treated by your care providers. And I know for me, there were lots of things that were said that were really damaging, like you're not trying hard enough. And I mean, I still, you know, I've made peace with a lot of it, but I still feel really angry that anyone would say that to somebody at any stage in their labor but let alone when they're literally there on their back trying to push out a baby um but yeah so so we ended up having we ended up having this birth that essentially was it was a very traumatic experience and ended in a lot of intervention and um it then became apparent that he was critically ill.

And so he was taken off to the NICU. So, yeah, I mean, it's difficult. There are still large chunks of the birth that I don't remember. And I feel quite guilty towards him for that because I think, well, I don't remember. Other than pictures, I don't remember what you looked like when you were born. I don't remember other than pictures I don't remember what you looked like when you were born I don't remember the moment you came out I don't remember the cord being cut we didn't have a lovely golden hour you know all those things so I personally like you you know like you said when people sort of share the positive birth

stories on Instagram obviously you want everyone to have a positive birth of course but my resentment comes from the lovely glowing mother in a hospital bed craving their new baby photos or or you know even if it's like a baby on the chest seconds after birth looking a little a little bit horrendous photos um that's where my kind of real resentment comes from I guess is thinking well I didn't get that and I don't you know and I can't ever get that back I can't get that moment he was born back and that's kind of been taken from me I suppose yeah oh um but the important thing is that he's here and he's healthy how long did he have to stay in hospital so he was in, I think he came home when he was 11 days old. So by Nicky Sanders, it was a short stay. The PTSD, which I was subsequently diagnosed with, came sort of largely from the birth, but also because there was this horrendous moment after birth where he had been taken away.

I'd been taken to a sort of transitional postnatal ward. And it was kind of three o'clock in the morning. And the doctors had said, oh, we're going to go for a cannula. He's probably got an infection. We'll bring him back to you on the ward. And then they didn't. And they came back empty handed and they pulled back the curtain and they didn't have a baby with them. And I honestly thought he was dead. And it took me until very, very recently to understand that he wasn't dead in that moment. And I think that's one of the really tricky things with PTSD is memories sort of get trapped in your in your short term memory rather than being filed correctly in the long term. And so something I really had to go through with a lot with the therapist was he is alive. He was alive because in that moment,

I really didn't believe that he was. And that kind of, I guess, set the tone or set off our NICU journey. And it was a very, you know, it was a very tumultuous touch and go journey, especially the first few days. He ended up intated sedated ventilated every sort of tube why you can imagine and then there was this period I guess of just no progress where they would come around and they would say well he's not worse but he's not better in the way we expected he would be and then suddenly he did just get better which I guess is kind of the miracle of modern medicine but also the miracle of babies is that they are so resilient and they are such fighters and it is incredible what they can come back from and I think it's really interesting because

it's it's impossible to kind of explain what a NICU environment is like until you're there because it's utterly terrifying and completely heartbreaking you know we couldn't hold our newborn I couldn't feed him um but it's kind of this heaven and hell sort of place because the people who work there are just incredible the NICU nurses and sisters are so supportive and so loving that in a really really weird way as much as you're relieved to go home, it's kind of sad to leave as well, because however long you spend there, you're in this kind of safe little bubble, I suppose, where even though they're critically unwell, they are being

so loved and so well looked after. And I guess you've also got the security blanket of all the equipment and then all these amazing medical professionals. It's so nice to kind of see you on the other side a year later, like with like a really cute, amazing baby. And I think, you know, as hard and difficult as it is to listen to this, I know that it will help so many people even people that are going through like the lows of motherhood there is hope after yeah i mean i hope so i think

it's it is very difficult and i think when you're when you're there when you're in that moment you're desperately searching or i was just researching for the the positive stories and the and the good outcomes and he is he's fantastic he is you know's fantastic. He's, you know, he's such a brilliant little boy. And you wouldn't know by looking at him, obviously, what he went through, what we went through. Equally, I know, and you know, and so I'm really careful to myself not to undermine that, because things like his first birthday, it was quite poignant thinking, wow, look at him, this is amazing. But also, oh oh my goodness, look at what this is also the anniversary of, I suppose.

That's so interesting. What was it like? I know you've touched on the fact that you've went through therapy for birth trauma and PTSD. At what stage did you think something's not right here? Was it immediate? at what stage did you think something's not right here was it immediate was it I think it was when I think when we left the hospital I sort of very much put it out of sight out of mind uh it was when he was about seven months old that I really sort of realized that there was an issue um that coincided with a time when we decided to do sleep training and got him into a routine and we were getting full night's sleep again. And I think maybe in lifting the fog of sleep deprivation, I was then able to see that a lot of things I'd probably been putting down to that

actually weren't due to sleep deprivation or weren't due to the fourth trimester or just the general stresses and strains motherhood there was something more to it um and also I was very sort of triggered by things by pregnancy it was actually a scene on a tv program um of a birth that both my husband and I kind of sat there a bit shell-shocked when we turned Netflix off and when we went to bed that night, we kind of did have a conversation about how it impacted us both. And he sort of flagged, I suppose, lots of changes he'd seen in me and my personality that I think I'd maybe just thought, well,

I have a baby now and I'm tired and a bit stressed and that's the reason. And actually, it wasn't the reason. So I started reading up a bit more on birth trauma I eventually went to see my GP she suggested PTSD the more I looked into it the more I thought okay that you know that does sound like me and then it took a few months to access support on the NHS but I went through various assessments with therapists and was eventually recommended EMDR therapy, which was fantastic. Yeah, I mean, I was definitely struggling with sort of very, very confronting intrusive thoughts at a sort of unhealthy level. I think everyone experiences intrusive thoughts, but it was quite debilitating at times.

I had a very short fuse. I had a real sort of irrational rage, sort of default function about things that were completely, you know, a minor inconvenience. And I think it's because PTSD really triggers your sort of flight or fight mechanism. And it almost always in that mode. It took until he was sort of eight months old to ask for help. It took until he was about 11 months old, I guess, to receive help, maybe 10 months just to receive help. But then amazingly, I think I had eight to 10 weeks of EMDR before I actually discharged myself from the service, which wasn't something I thought I was going to do. I thought, oh gosh, I'm going to be doing this for months.

And I even thought, you know, we're moving area. And I thought, right, okay, well, I'm going to be doing this for months um and I even thought you know we're moving area and I thought right okay well I'm going to drive back to London to still come to these sessions and and then yeah a couple of weeks ago I actually discharged myself because I felt like I'd got what I needed from it so I think it's really important that people know that the help and the support is there no matter how bad your experience was but I think you also have to be ready and open to receiving it and I don't think I would have been if I'd figured it out earlier can I ask a question as um I'm sure a lot of people are listening who haven't experienced what you're going through and I know I feel like

even when I'm listening to you I obviously feel really like sad for what you went through and like I said I want to give you a hug but I never quite know the right thing to say with all of it with loss with birth trauma with people who are struggling for anyone say who's got friends or family members going through similar to what you have gone through what what is the right thing to say or what do you what who made you feel the most supported and how like what is the right thing to do or say? So I think really you just want people to validate what you're going through without having to fix it. I think maybe in sort of just general life,

we're all a bit conditioned towards toxic positivity and trying to find a bright side. And actually nobody wants to hear a bright side to their baby dying or a traumatic birth or intensive care you know you just don't want to hear it you don't want someone to say at least or oh well you know look at this almost like look at this positive and so I think actually you know if someone if someone comes to me and they said they've experienced a loss I do say gosh I'm really sorry. And if it's something I don't know about, I might say that, you know, I can't imagine how hard that is for you. But I want to support you. And I think sometimes it's maybe offering some practical support,

because we're all quite good at saying I'm here if you need me. But then we're all really bad at taking up our friends on that offer. So it might be know can I do this or can I do that uh one of the most helpful things when Ziggy was in the NICU was a friend who um she just did loads of really practical things so like when we got back from the hospital and uh without him she had let herself into our flat and put meals in our fridge and she sort of text one morning a couple of days after he came home saying there's some And without him, she had let herself into our flat and put meals in our fridge. And she sort of text one morning, a couple of days after he came home saying, there's some soup on your doorstep. I didn't want to ring the bell. And all new mothers need that. Not just if you've had a traumatic experience, but that was really, really practical. And even after our loss, I suppose, just little things that my sister-in-law bought us a little kind of forget-me-not plant on the day that we went for the surgery and just, you know, kind of dropped off and said, I got you this.

And actually, that was just really thoughtful, because I guess it's just somebody validating that what you've gone through is worth grieving or your trauma is valid. is it's worth grieving or your trauma is valid or I think for all of us whatever we experience in life whatever we're feeling we just want someone to say it's okay that you feel like that um so I think I think the main thing is not trying to be a fixer and it's you know if it's somebody that you can support because you're close to them that's great if you can support them practically if it's someone who realistically you're not going to do those things for then it might just be saying I'm really sorry that sounds really really really hard and it's shit that you're going through that and that can kind of that can kind of be it that can kind of be enough that's really good I like that because I always feel almost uncomfortable because

I probably am a natural fixer oh because because you care or you want to help and you're like god i'm so sorry um and yeah thank you like a for like sharing your story with me because i know that it must be like hard to go through it all but also like i feel like that practical level of knowing what to say to people because most people do want to be able to help don't they which i guess is where the toxic positivity comes from I saw a really good quote once I can't remember what it was exactly but it was basically about you want someone to climb in the hole with you so if you're in that hole no matter what it's for whether it's related to motherhood or not but if you're in a hole you want someone to climb in with you you don't want someone to like kind of try and he you out by your hair. And I think that's sometimes what it feels like when people give you at least or

if someone says, oh, my dog's died, you wouldn't say, oh, I'll go get another puppy. And yet that's kind of what people default to. Oh, you can try again. And it's well-meaning, of course, but it's just ultimately in that moment, it's not what you want to hear. To anyone that's listening who maybe is going um through some of these um issues i know that you mentioned tommy's has got great support for anyone experiencing loss is there um is there like similar resources for birth trauma or yeah so the birth trauma association is there and they have helplines as well then there's tommy there's charities like saying goodbye and i think instagram is great because there's been some brilliant accounts i found by

clinical psychologists who have who specialize in those areas i think there's one called um the birth trauma mama i think there's one called the t on birth trauma there is a brilliant account called miracle moon which is all about nikku for both premature and full-term babies the support is there i just think sometimes you have to go looking for a little bit well hopefully for anyone listening who's got friends and family um experiencing this i know at least i know feel more confident now in like being able to be helpful and um thank you to everyone for listening to mum's the word the parenting podcast and especially to beth for coming on i'm going to put all of beth's social media information in the blurb but it um

her instagram is at beth sandland and um she also has the act motherhood edit as well and i'd love to hear from you if you think someone will benefit from listening to this episode then please um share it with them and i'll be back same time with another episode same place next week