Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Matrescence - The Seismic Change All Mothers Experience with Lucy Jones

Episode Date: July 30, 2023

When pregnant, women go through an incredible change that isn't just physical, but emotional, psychological and physiological, across the world with a new baby there is also the celebration of a new mother, so why in Western Society is so much of this change not talked about and hidden. Journalist and author of Matrescence : On the Metamorphosis of Pregnancy, Childbirth and Motherhood, Lucy Jones joins us this week to teach us about the changes women undergo during pregnancy and after birth, how we can care for new women and her own experience into this new area of life. Get in touch with your birth experiences over at [e-mail]---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So when becoming a mother we go through a huge change physically, emotionally and hormonally. This transition hasn't ever been properly explained or studied and it can mean that many women are left to deal with this massive change by themselves. This can also lead to deep issues that many women don't even realise that they are dealing with. This change is known as matrescence and is the transition that we go through when becoming a mother. But why aren't we taught about this? Today, we explore this and more with award-winning author and journalist Lucy Jones, who's here with me now. Hi, Lucy. Hello. Thank you for having me on. Hi. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I was really excited about this.

We're talking about matrescence. It's your new book, which is titled Matrescence on the Metamorphosis of Pregnancy, Childbirth and Motherhood. This is something that I have definitely felt, but I didn't know that there was a word for it. I didn't know that there was something behind this. Can you take us through this? How do you define matrescence? Where's this come from? Yes, gladly. I think it's just a transformative word. I first heard this word, it was about five or so years ago. My first child was about nine months old and I was kind of struggling to adapt to motherhood in some ways. I was overjoyed to be pregnant, loved my baby, but felt that there was a real kind of seismic change that had happened to me.

I just felt really different and my brain felt different. My relationships had changed, my identity, my body, of course. my identity, my body, of course. And at the time, I thought there was something kind of wrong with me. I'd been told like we do to enjoy every minute and this will be the best time of your life. And actually, I found it very hard to soothe my baby. I had lots of struggles with breastfeeding. hard to soothe my baby. I had lots of struggles with breastfeeding. Birth was a massive shock that I was unprepared for. I was very lonely. I was very isolated, you know, spending kind of most days on my own with a new baby. It just was very discombobulating. God, Lucy, this sounds exactly like, it was nine months for me too. I just was, I got to nine months. I just thought, who what am I what is this yeah who am I just I don't know

who I am I've lost myself you know my friends like many of whom kind of weren't having babies at that point would say how are you or what have you been up to and I just didn't know what to say anyway I read an article in the New York Times by a reproductive psychiatrist called Alexandra Sachs called The Birth of a Mother. And in that article, it had the word matrescence. And she described, she defined it, and it means the process of becoming a mother. It was originally an anthropological term, actually from the 70s, so a long time ago,

coined by a medical anthropologist called dana rafael and it means the process of becoming a mother so in most cultures and societies across the world there is a sense of a newborn mother not just a newborn baby and there's the sense of this being an important developmental transition and stage um you know where there are big physical changes but also psychological emotional spiritual in terms of relationships identity and so on and I just read this word and my shoulders dropped and I just thought that is what I'm in that's yes that's going on. This like explains why I feel so weird and so kind of confused and blindsided. And so the book that I've written, Matrescence, is about mostly

my kind of personal journey of matrescence. And I wanted to call the book Matrescence because I just think, I know that this word is transformative because it creates a space and a kind of holding container to describe all these big changes that happen. When I heard this word and when I looked at what it meant, I could not believe it. I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Because you aren't the same person. And so you're saying it's almost like a rebirth of yourself. Is that what you mean? Or your own personal leap in life that you're sort of moving to a next level?

You're moving to a different phase? A useful way of thinking about it is, and the word is really similar to adolescence. So matrescence like adolescence. There is no other life stage in a human life course as big as adolescence. Matrescence is similarly seismic to adolescence. So you have all the kind of massive hormonal changes, really significant brain changes that we know about now because of all the new neuroscience. So there's these physical and physiological changes, but it's very psychological and emotional and kind of mental and and it's just it's so much bigger than i think our um western society and culture um

acknowledges it to be and we know that you know societies across the world all have rituals and rights and ways of um kind of supporting and caring for women after they've given birth and in those early motherhood months and years but in our culture you know it's very much bounce back culture you know we've got to get back to work and I think this is a real moment for us to think about how we care for women in this transition, partly because, you know, when people are adolescents and teenagers, we all know that's a weird time and it can be a vulnerable time. But when we're teenagers, we kind of have each other.

You know, it's very much, you know, of course, you know, it can be a lonely time, but it's often a big time of social bonding. And when I was an adolescent, I had like music and clothes and clothes and you know going out with friends and so on but in matrescence we have this similarly big change but we're often you know in our society alone with it so I think this is a really important way of thinking about both the potential vulnerability of this period. So we know that it's a very perilous time as well for physical and mental health, but also it can be a really kind of empowering time and a way of becoming a new person and, you know, jettisoning, jettisoning maybe some of the things that you don't need or. Yeah. Shedding your skin and sort of thinking right here am I now and what do I want

to be what what kind of woman do I want to be now because it is it was it was so confusing and you're right just thinking back to what you're saying about how this culture you know western society sort of almost celebrates you I remember I'd gone back to work and I'd gone back very early because of the industry that we're in and for many other reasons as well also money reasons you know I'm I'm freelance I don't go to work I don't get paid and it's almost a badge of honor being able to bounce back and go back and actually I think I think I needed looking back now should I have a second child I definitely would put a bit more time aside but I just didn't know the change that was going to happen I knew there would be you know a person living in our house that was rent free but I didn't know that how much care would have to go into this child and how much of me that I would

suddenly lose and just have to say goodbye to and I really held on to the old me for quite a bit and I think that was the problem I wasn't I wasn't ready to let go of who I was. And I was just struggling. I was battling with trying to be this new person and having this baby with me. And you're right. It was the nine month stage. And I think you get to that point because the first bit is so hectic, isn't it? And you're in a bubble. It is a baby bubble. There is no two ways around it. There is a bit of a baby bubble going on. And then you sort of get into the real world. Maybe your other half goes back to work. And then, and I do remember looking at my other half and like, you know, I'd had a C-section. I was cut in two. I had hand splints

on because I had really bad carpal tunnel. I like my hair was falling out and I just stood there, shuffled into bed, exhausted. And he was just like sort of bounding around. He'd been at work. And I was just like, oh my God, you haven't at work and I was just like oh my god you haven't changed one bit and like there's a bit of resentment isn't there towards your other half oh yeah that all resonates so much and I think what you're saying and this is what I um I hear so much from um new mothers is how kind of hidden it all is and how minimized it is both, you know, how brutalizing birth can be on the body to how vulnerable and how much an infant needs. Yes.

I mean, I'd never changed a nappy before I had a baby. It blew my mind, actually, how much it takes to sustain human life and well-being yeah it's because everybody says oh it's the most natural thing in the world so you think oh i'll get it it'll be fine i'll just it'll happen i'll pick it up i'll know what to do but then when you're sat with the baby like ah shit how to put a cardi on what that is so i think that is so such a good point and i think that is part of the issue that we have at the moment is that, that idea of it being natural and like the maternal instinct. So I thought,

Oh, I'll naturally be able to give birth. I'll naturally be able to breastfeed. I'll naturally have this instinct to know how to look after a baby. And all those things kind of didn't, didn't go to plan. And actually I think that, you know,

in our, in our culture and our world at the moment, it's quite cruel and oppressive the way we equate kind of naturalness with certain facets of motherhood. And that means that many women feel like they failed. So I had issues with breastfeeding. And in those early weeks and months, I thought I actually failed my daughter. And, you know, it has taken me a long time to kind of get over that. And it was so painful. And I know that a lot of other women carry that kind of shame and sense of failure. But I mean, the truth is that we're sold a lot

of myths and a lot of taboos. And we would like to think that, you know, the body will be able to give birth in a particular way or breastfeed in a particular way and you know mothers will be able to soothe their babies in a particular way but nature's not like that you know nature is birth injuries it's lactation failure i mean i hate the word failure but you know it's colic yeah it's the terror of being a mother and looking after a vulnerable child it's you know postpartum mental illness there's a lot of there's a lot of really big things that can happen in this period and I think that you know the framing and concept of matrescence will help people be able to talk about those changes and and basically to just say know, this is a really big deal for us.

Yes. We're expected to kind of be at home alone, go back to work, you know, bounce back, as I already said. And it's actually, it's bonkers. Yeah. The mental load of everything else you have to think of around it too, that just suddenly just appears

is just, it's mind blowing. It's very overwhelming. And so matrescence, obviously pregnancy, childbirth, motherhood, does matrescence carry on i mean i know i'm not asking you you know the answer to that especially but because i mean i imagine it's different for everyone but is it something that keeps going it keeps evolving or you stop after two years what's really kind of exciting about this this word and this concept is that lots of people are kind of working on it at the moment and scientists are studying it in different ways. So, I mean, and there's no kind of, you know,

clear-cut definition. I mean, I feel like I had a very intense matrescence with my first child, but then I did have subsequent matrescences, you know, with... I was going to ask, yeah, you've got three little ones, haven't you? Yeah, and each one has felt like a different matrescence you know and each you know each birth and early motherhood for every woman and birthing person requires a um you know an element of support and care that i don't think that that we give uh given this culture anymore um but you know some people think matrescence goes on through the life course so um lots of neuroscientists are studying how the caregiver kind of brain changes shape through different kind of different ways of caregiving. So we know, for example, in pregnancy and early motherhood, the brain experiences profound changes in anatomy and structure.

And these aren't just kind of like small little changes. These are really significant ones. But it seems that the brain waxes and wanes kind of through the early years and then possibly these changes continue. Perhaps matrescence never ends in a way that maybe adolescence never ends. But certainly I think it's very helpful

to think about the first few years. You know, we're told six week check, you know, how's mum? Back to normal. You know, we're kind of seeing it seem like that postnatal period is so short when actually, I think I read something the other day which said it can take 10 years to recover from giving birth. Oh God. But it's true. Because new stuff comes up.

And sometimes, even now thinking about the birth, sometimes I'll remember something that I hadn't remembered. And I'll just be like, oh God, that was awful. And then you sort of like, what do I do with that thought? Where does that go for this moment? Do I sort of have to sit with it and ask my other half? He was quite traumatized by it all as well. He was very jumpy for about a month or so after it. I i mean is there a male version of it when they become a father is there anything or

or is it as i thought they just crack on well i hope someone will write a book um called potrescence sometime and i think that the neuroscience about the paternal brain or the caregiver brain is really interesting. So we all evolved in these big collective caregiving networks. So humans spent 99% of our lives in these big groups. So it makes sense that all of us have the circuitry in our brains that enable us to look after infants. And the science is showing now that the paternal brain changes significantly too, particularly with hands-on care and affection. So the more kind of affectionate and hands-on a father or a non-biological mother or adoptive parent is, the more the brain will change, which makes a lot of sense.

I think that's really important because it shows, that it's not you know yes the brain changes of pregnancy and birth probably give a little bit of a head start for mothers um but everyone can be caregivers and you know it father's brains change too and i mean we know that fathers get postnatal depression um and there's a lot of changes for for them as well my must be really hard for them to recognize that actually it must be really hard for them to be able to go what's this feeling and who can i tell yeah and i really hope that changes and you know i hope that as we talk more about all these um ways of being and open up kind of honest conversations, which is what I hope my book will do, you know, that everyone in all different types of parents will be able to kind of find more support. And, you know,

I think there's so much stigma still around struggling and, and, you know, things like, like birth trauma and, and I, you know, that can, that must be very frightening for for birthing partners and and fathers as well but you know things need to change uh in terms of how how we can talk to each other and i think that's happening and i feel quite positive about it do you have an insatiable fascination with the paranormal are you ready to dive headfirst into the eerie realms of the unexplained? Brace yourself for the supernatural world is about to reveal all of its secrets on the Paranormal Activity Podcast. And who better to guide you through this

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Will you dare to join me? Listen to Paranormal Activity with me, Yvette Fielding, wherever you get your podcasts from. Like, this has really helped me. I'm not joking because I got, you know, how your phone throws up a memory, which is sometimes nice, sometimes, you know, shocking. But there was one that threw up only two days ago. And it was of my little boy.

And it was when he was seven months old, I think. And it was the cutest video. Obviously, I think that's my child. But it's the cutest video of him just laughing. And I felt an over, instead of thinking, oh, how gorgeous, I felt an overwhelming wave of guilt because I remember hating that time. And I look back now and I'm like, God, why didn't I just enjoy it? And obviously that's my brain saying that to me. And I felt that way because I felt that way. I felt alone. I felt isolated. I had, you know, I have my mom, I have my sister,

I have everyone around me, I have friends who have got babies. But in that moment, the day-to-day, the waking up and what I really found and that my mom was quite shocked about is the lack of mother and toddler, mother and baby groups or whatever in the area. It might be just, I don't know.

It could be a London thing. It could be a London London based thing. It could be better further out. I'm not entirely sure. But if you did want to go to anything like that, you've got to pay. And I just see other mums and I, you know, I wasn't able to be part of the antenatal classes beforehand. We changed area where we lived. I was trying to get into a new thing and work as well got in the way at the time. So I didn't have that support network. And you know, it's all this stuff that I just, I didn't. And also I was like, well, I'll just read about it when I get there, but you have no time to read. Like I had that baby book where it's like each step and I was like, well, I'll read it each time I get to that step. She's never got read. Just sat on the side, not getting read.

But there doesn't seem to be that sort of, you're right, the communal aspect to it anymore or where parents can go. And it's like group therapy really is what a mother and baby group is. It's like sitting around, isn't it? And everyone sharing their experiences. Oh, exactly this. And I really feel for you and I really felt so so the same and I think that you know you know I have a loving family as well but there was something

there's something about like the structures and the systems I think in which we live which is very um neglecting and disavowing of caregivers so you know sure start children's centers have all been closed over the last 10 20 years of austerity the library was my saving that was my saving grace because i could go there and i knew i wouldn't be judged if my baby was crying or if i was feeding either breast or bottle both felt shameful in different ways and you know and even things like the way our urban areas are like i've got a real thing about roads and cars like since having children because I think you know we're so our urban areas are so dominated by cars and it's actually it's really scary going out with young children and you know I was very I edge my way out behind things first and I've sort of got the pram

I've got the front wheels of the pram I still do it now so I've edged my way first to see yeah I imagine just sticking your baby out first behind a van. Like it's so busy and it's so built up in those areas. It just doesn't seem. Well, they're not made. They haven't been built by women for women or by caregivers for caregivers. You know, we live in a man's world still. It's very patriarchal and just like, you know, the foundations of our society aren't very, are quite hostile.

I find that with trains. I write about going on a train with my baby in the book and, you know, being told to kind of put up a buggy in a train, you know, and it's like, how, who's going to hold my baby there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's going to help me with this? There's so many things like that, which just blew my mind when I became a mum because I was

like this is really messed up like yeah like you know you're sending people who are very vulnerable and you know might have had difficult births um are in this huge kind of change state trying to work it out not only is like our society you know not set up for it but also the pressures and the expectations and I think even though like I would go to some baby groups actually sometimes I found them even more like stressful and isolating because everyone was just saying everything was fine there's a lot of that I did not feel fine at all I was terrified every day and you know I think those are the those are the obstacles and the barriers which could be broken you know if we can all if we can be vulnerable with each other and we can you know it can feel okay to say you know I'm really struggling or

you know then then we might be able to support each other and then you know then we can redesign all the urban areas and the trains like you know down the line but I think that that compassion that element of self-compassion and compassion with each other could really free up a lot of pain I've just seen so much pain and shame and of course joy and like ecstasy as yeah you know young children bring us but the amount of women I've talked to and I you know I surveyed people for my book who are just you know in kind of stuck in shame feelings of shame and it's not it's not okay I mean it's no it's not no the joy windows are quite small aren't they that's the one bit I didn't realize yes. So the National Childbirth Trust

estimates that half of new mothers experience mental health problems, but only half of those will seek help. Do you think that number would decline if they were properly educated on the changes that are to come? Because I think that's the one thing that, and a bit more honesty

before children get here and a bit more care after it too, I think that's the one thing that, and a bit more honesty before the, before children get here and, um, and a bit more care after it too, I think. How, how do you think, I know we've talked about, you know, sorting the areas out and, and, you know, mother and toddler groups, mother and baby groups and stuff like that. But do you think, I mean, even starting in schools, talking to boys and girls about it would help? Yeah, so and i hope so so um my book i interviewed different scientists and psychologists and and kind of experts this area and you know there is you know one of them talked to me about how there are these um huge uh hormonal changes in in pregnancy birth and early motherhood which mean that some level of perinatal mental illness is bound to happen.

So it is kind of a huge physiological change which can mimic depression. So, yes, we need treatment and better adequate treatment for people who are vulnerable to those mental illnesses. However, I think there is absolutely a social element. How could anyone who is kind of left alone most days under huge amounts of kind of pressure to enjoy every minute, who is recovering from major kind of physical experience of birth, you know, how, how could we expect those people to be okay? You know, there's, I think there's a sense that if we were able to hold the woman and the new mother by saying, you know, this is going to, this could be like a really, you know, rocky time, or it could be,

you know, it's going to, you're going to be okay, but you're going to get through it, but you're going to feel a bit weird for a few months, maybe even a few years. I felt weird for a few years. You're going to need help and it's going to be okay. And, um, it's not, it's not a shameful thing to feel like that, you know? And, and I think this, this idea of matrescence, just, you know, it's a kind of like a neutral term, you know, and I think this this idea of matrescence just you know it's a kind of like a neutral term you know we can think about it in both you know the fact like I said before we're vulnerable but we can also be empowered and you know in my kind of antenatal I just did similar to you I moved I moved from London to Hampshire when my baby was a few weeks old so I missed the kind of NCT groups but I did hospital classes um there was nothing about anything to do with me you know it was all about feeding and it was about

the birth and then you know this and cutting their nails cutting their nails yeah that's a big one the six week check it was like okay we're gonna do baby then we'll quickly do you how's mum you know very um you know, I felt very like invisible. And then I had an experience with my third child of quite a severe birth injury. And the lack of information before and after that was just kind of, it's just been quite staggering really. And I think women need more information. We need much more information about all the different changes we go through through our lives. That was also the case for miscarriage and infertility and menopause. You know, we really need all the information we can get.

And we need to acknowledge that there is a newborn mother as well as a newborn baby. I didn't think actually the miscarriage. born mother as well as a newborn baby. I didn't think actually the miscarriage, I mean, obviously having a miscarriage, you've had part of that matricence happen with the biological and the physical, depending on how far you may get into that pregnancy. So that stage has started already. And then that's your matricence there too. Gosh, I hadn't even thought of that that actually you could have that a couple of times over if you're trying and trying to get to that stage oh my gosh it must be so exhausting yeah one of the um one of the bits of science I

write about in my book which a few people have talked to me about in the context of pregnancy loss is this kind of incredible field of it. Colloquially, it's called zombie cells or microchimerism. So when a baby is in the womb, cells are exchanged between the fetus and the mother and the cells of the baby cross the placenta and go into the mother's body. And what they're finding is that actually the cells of the baby cross the placenta and go into the mother's body. And what they're finding is that actually the cells remain in the mother's body even after the baby has come out of the body. And so those cells kind of remain, you know, whether there's been a living child or a loss.

And I think that's quite a kind of profoundly moving idea for a lot of people yeah it's romantic in one sense you know depending on the outcome but also devastating in another yeah if miscarriage is involved I can't I can't you know it's sort of hard to wrap your head around it all really isn't it it really is and I think I think it really speaks to this kind of general idea that so much of this is hidden there's so much of women's health and maternal subjectivity you know experiences of pregnancy and birth and early motherhood has been it's so underwritten and it's so kind of undervalued and I really feel like we're in a moment now where you know we're seeing a lot more kind of cultural depictions more honest depictions and i think and you know people are just they've had enough of it being

hidden and you know if we get it a bit more into the open i think it could have lots of different um positive effects i mean you know if you think about um you know economics so you know our entire economic system um of late stage capitalism rests on the unpaid labor of mostly mothers yeah i think part of the reason why that that continues is because we hide care work and we we pretend that it's kind of easy natural you know banal like basic but actually it's really hard yeah it's very it's much harder than I think our society gives us credit for you know nursery workers I think it's like 10th of nursery workers are living in poverty I think that is just outrageous and they're bringing our children up for us and and I I just don't know how they do it really at the end of the day i'm so much

more exhausted if i've done a day of work way more exhausted looking after my little boy i just lucy it's been so amazing to speak to you today your book matrescence is out now go get it go read it i mean it's incredible i'm so pleased that you've done this because it is really it's really clicked with me and it's really, it's made me feel a bit more normal, actually. Yeah, I'm so glad. Yeah, I also feel a bit pepped up by it. I'm going to go and shout at someone, but I don't know who.

I don't know who I want to shout at, but I feel like it. Thank you so much, Lucy. It's been lovely to speak to you. It's been so lovely. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for listening to mum's the word the parenting podcast make sure you hit the subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode we love to hear from you get in touch on whatsapp where you can send us a voice message

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