Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - The Truth about Mum Guilt! - with Zoe Blaskey

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

On This Week's Mum's The Word:Georgia Jones is joined by Zoe Blaskey from the Motherkind podcast to chat everything about 'Mum Guilt'They'll Discuss:Why feeling guilty is natural as a mum?Why perfection and being perfect serves no one!Do Dad's get parent guilt or is it just mum's?Get In Contact With Us:Do you have a question for us? Get in touch on our Whatsapp, that's 07599927537 or email us at [e-mail] for Listening---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome back to Mums the Word, the parenting podcast. I'm Georgia Jones and I'm your host for this week. Now this week's podcast is all about mum guilt and I've been feeling it a little bit recently because I didn't organise Cooper's birthday party with a great deal of time and although it all went to plan and he was very happy I did feel quite guilty that I wasn't a prepared mum but we will touch on this in this podcast. This week's guest on Mum's The Word is Zoe Blaski. Not only is Zoe a transformational coach, host of her own podcast and speaker on modern motherhood, but she's also on a mission to share the best ideas to help modern mothers feel more resilient and less alone. Welcome to Mum's the Word, Zoe.

So lovely to have you. Oh, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you. This has been a long time coming, hasn't it? We've talked a lot online. Many DMs have happened. We've finally done it. Now, Zoe, you are a woman on a mission to kind of dispel the mum guilt myths, aren't you? I listened to your podcast this morning, actually, on the misconceptions of mum guilt, actually. And it was not only incredible and insightful, it actually made me cry. I mean, it doesn't take a great deal to make me cry. Anyone that listens to this podcast knows I tend to well up. I'm the crier. Out of the three presenters, I'm the crier. It's fine. It's good showing our emotions, right? We can cry together. Yeah. Now, there was a statistic on your podcast where it said that 94% of mothers experience guilt every day. Like, that completely blew me away. I couldn't quite believe that it was that high, the percentage.

Why do you think it is? quite believe that it was that high, the percentage. Why do you think it is? Why do you think we have all this pressure on ourselves and experience all this guilt? Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? And I mean, I think it's even got its own word. It's not just guilt. You have to put mum in front of it, which I always put in air quotes because I'm like, let's unpack that idea a bit. Yeah, it's so prevalent. And most mums that you speak to will say yeah I felt guilty about something yeah today big or small you know I remember when I first came a mum I felt guilty about everything before I learned what I know now and I think actually you know and you would have heard this in the episode that you listened to on my podcast mother kind about guilt we call

a lot of things guilt that actually aren't guilt it's almost like I wonder if you relate to this I think the emotional experience of motherhood is so complex isn't it like the emotions that we feel like day in day out we haven't always had the language for that no I think that's because traditionally that the mother's experience has been not ignored but definitely not you know focused on it's all been about the baby and the feeding and the toddler and the schooling and the exams not about how is the mum and so I think we just actually haven't had the words now to put to the feelings absolutely I got this idea from coaching like thousands of mums on this and they would say I

feel so guilty about this and I think oh but that's not really guilt that you're describing that's something else so I started to really unpack it because guilt actually productive guilt is kind of a good emotion yeah like we don't want to talk we don't want to have no guilt it's actually only psychopaths when you don't have any guilt literally when you right so that was honestly like a massive light bulb moment for me when you said that on your pod when you said it's only psychopaths that don't feel guilt I was like oh my gosh what a good what a good point right because I was like that makes me feel great about having guilt that actually makes me feel really good for being guilty exactly because it means I'm sane exactly this is why this sort of narrative um

around you know let's get rid of mum I'm like that's just not the thing like guilt is actually you know can be a really powerful and positive emotion like all our emotions developed for a reason guilt developed so that when we were back in in tribes you know in k people times if we did something that could harm the group we would feel guilty and it would make us say sorry or change our behavior or make amends so it's a really good it's good it helps us stay connected it helps us stay true to our values like guilt is when true guilt I call it is when we've done something that goes outside of who we are yeah so like today I made I've completely forgotten I'd made a promise to my youngest oh god it's awful isn't it what the hell why do they remember?

They don't remember what they even ate at school that day. Yet they remember something you said to them a week ago. This is it. That was going to happen next week at approximately like 5.30pm. Exactly. They can't even tell time. So she was like, I was like, remember mummy's going to London today? And these little eyes looked up.

She was like, but you promised we could go for baby Chino. And was like oh god it hurt it actually hurts isn't it physically it's good that I feel a bit of guilt there like I'd forgotten that promise one of my values like one of the standards that I hold myself to it's like I like being true to my word like I'd like doing what I say I'm gonna do so okay yeah I feel a bit of guilt that's all right yeah so I said to her I feel really guilty about that Rose yeah I've forgotten we'll do it tomorrow morning i'll make sure that happens tomorrow morning i think that's so good yeah i think that is like one big thing that i learned was actually admitting you're wrong to your child and teaching them that okay mommy's done wrong here i forgot but i'm apolog first of all, and we're going to

make it right. Mummy's going to make it right because that was wrong on my part. Do you know the worst thing I ever did? And honestly, it still haunts me to this day is I forgot that Cooper, my little boy, had a poetry recital at school. And the only reason I found out was because another mum messaged me and said, oh, you were missed at the poetry recital today. Where were you? And I was like, so what poetry recital? And honestly, my heart, the thought of Cooper walking out into the assembly hall and not seeing me or Danny there and not understanding why we weren't there. I was like, this is horrible. It's a horrible feeling, isn't it? Yeah. And by the way, we've all been there. We've all done that. I don't think there is a mum

listening to this who hasn't forgotten one of those things. Like a hundred percent. I had it the other day. You're going to the sports match because we're at the stage where you have to go and watch all these matches. And I was like, I didn't even know about it but you know those things happen and I think when we expect ourselves not to drop any balls and be perfect it kind of serves no one it definitely doesn't serve us because we feel more guilt and it doesn't serve our kids actually it's really powerful to teach them like parents are imperfect yeah the world is imperfect and this is how we handle that emotionally and this is how we handle that emotionally and this is how we handle that in our actions we might make up for that we might validate his feelings about that was

how did it feel like walking out and it's hard to do that because you're like i don't want to hear it yeah exactly but actually validating that experience is really powerful i was so apologetic i think it's it's really interesting when you said about like that we're not perfect as parents. No parent is perfect. That was something when I first had Cooper that I really struggled with because I like everything to be perfect. I like everything done a certain way. We looked into it in therapy, probably got mild OCD, but that's a whole nother podcast. But yeah, I'm really, really particular about things. So when I had a little tiny baby that just threw, it was like a bomb had gone off in the house and it was just my perfect little world had been completely changed. And it was impossible for things to be perfect

because it was changing constantly. I really, really struggled with that mentally, trying to just adapt to it all. And I felt guilty for that. You know, you have your life a certain way. Not only did I feel guilty that I still wanted it to be perfect and it wasn't, I felt guilty that I was struggling with that, that I was struggling in my own head and didn't understand it. And then you think, God, is everybody going to think that I've let things go wrong because things aren't how Georgia normally has them. You know, house isn't tidy and spotless like it normally is. Everything does not have its place anymore. And there's all these pressures that you just pile upon yourselves and then it all gets a bit much eventually well that that's the right word isn't it pressure because that's sort of

what we were talking about that good guilt you know when you do something wrong you make i reckon having studied this for way too many hours at this point is that's probably about 20 percent of what we actually call guilt. Like what you were talking about there is not guilt because you haven't done anything wrong. Remember like guilt is when we've done something wrong and we make amends and we move on. What you were talking about there was kind of other things.

Remember I was saying like the complex emotions of motherhood sounds like there's a mix of you setting yourself way too high standards. Yeah, 100%. And then when we fall short of those, we feel guilty. But that's not guilt. The problem is the standard, not the emotional reaction to the standard. Yeah. You see?

So it's like, how do we get to think, what is important for me right now, given my resources, mentally, emotionally, physically, financially? Like, what is important for me? And then when we do that, like when I've done done that and when people that I've helped have done that it just completely changes your experience because you're like okay I'm not measuring myself against having a tidy house if it's clean and sanitary that's good enough this week or next week or whenever it is and then also I just had that word pressure and I think we do we put ourselves under so

much pressure and you know partly that comes from society and social media in the world that we live in but if we can take back control where we can yeah we can take the pressure off ourselves we're the ones putting it on ourselves so we can take it off and then we'll feel we'll feel our skill and perfectionism is just a massive one i mean you are not alone i know you know that but you our skill. And perfectionism is just a massive one. I mean, you are not alone. I know you know that, but you are not alone. And perfectionism is a, you know, it's almost a coping behavior that we develop to feel good enough. Yeah.

People think perfectionism is about being perfect or trying to be perfect. It's not at all. Perfectionism is that somewhere in us we don't feel good enough. So we try to compensate for that by making things orderly, in control. Yeah. And then we feel in control. And like you said,

like you throw a toddler or a baby or a teen into that and it just doesn't work. We have to find other ways to feel good about ourselves and validate ourselves. Yeah. In all the chaos. Yeah. Because it doesn't work.

Someone told me that it's quite childlike the perfectionist side of things is quite um like a childlike thing that if this is like this then everything's going to be wonderful if i have things a certain way it's all going to be lovely and happy and and it's not the case like that's not how life works and i think sometimes you have to like you said like you've got to remind yourself like the pressure we all feel it but there's ways of dealing with it and there's ways of taking that load off I actually um put a little thing out on Instagram just saying did anybody want to ask you anything do you know the honestly the majority of the questions were the same.

And it was, why isn't there dad guilt? Why isn't there, quotation marks, dad guilt? Because I never hear ever, really, of any dads saying, oh, I've got awful dad guilt today. And I don't know whether they either don't speak about it and do feel guilt or just don't have that ingrained in them like we do what do you what do you think i think it's both i think there is that there is dad guilt for sure i think dad's experience you know we were talking about that productive and unproductive guilt

the dads that i've spoken to and the people that i've spoken to on the podcast i experienced that more in the productive way it's like actually i feel really guilty that i promised i'd be at that football match and i wasn't okay well that's productive guilt like you've gone outside something that you you promised or a standard that you'd set for yourself I think they experience it less in the what I call unproductive guilt so feeling guilty about things that we we can't do anything about or putting ourselves under too high standards and then you use that word ingrained and i think absolutely like we subconsciously our brains are like sponges particularly when we're young so we absorb you know how our mothers were

what mothering was like when we were little you know we've got more working mothers than ever before now that wasn't the case when even you and i were little so we've absorbed all these expectations of what we should be I sure I call it the should scam because it is a scam yeah it's like why should I be organized why should I cook you know a fresh cooked meal every single day yeah why should I be ever present why shouldn't I work you know so many people have these ideas of what this kind of Mary Poppins perfect fantasy mother looks like. And I think one of the most powerful things to do

is like unpack that for ourselves. And I think that that's the baggage that fathers just typically don't bring into parenting. Yeah, because I suppose they've kind of got, they're going the opposite way a little bit in that we've seen like our mums and then their mums all being kind of like these perfect housewives and it's kind of changing now I think our generation is the generation where there's been a shift yeah and

I think hopefully for our children it'll be an even bigger shift now in that we are quite equal as men and women or it's going that way whereas when were younger, my mum and I love my mum and dad to bits. They're still together, like lovely married couple. But mum was the stay at home wife and dad was the man that went out and worked and he would be home every night at 5.30 and the dinner would be on the table

and the house would be clean. And if it wasn't, there'd be trouble wise, not obviously with my mum, but like house would be clean and if it wasn't you know there'd be trouble why not obviously with my mum but like mum would be like make sure the house is clean because we don't want your dad to come home to a dirty house and so we'd always make sure the house was lovely and clean and that has been ingrained in me absolutely and I still to this day if I am at home and Danny is out, even though he's not asked me to clean the house, I will make sure that house is tidy for him getting home. I mean, I like a clean house, so it's partly for me as well. But I think it's just ingrained in me to be that way. me after having cooper because all i'd seen was women having babies and that was it and then they

wouldn't work or they weren't desperate to get back to work i was desperate to start working again i was desperate were you i was desperate to be independent again and do my own thing and have kind of like that bit of my life that was just separate to do it to anything that was like keeping the house or looking after my child or cooking or clean anything like that and that is where there was this huge pressure guilt on me that I thought am I the only person that would rather work than, you know, I want Cooper to be looked after so I can work. I don't want to be the one at home all the time just looking after Cooper. And I was like, does that make me a terrible mother for feeling that way?

No. I mean, that's the perfect example of standards that we've absorbed that aren't our own. That's not your original idea is it to feel that bad about wanting to be yourself and I think this is one of the huge things that happens when we become mothers like before motherhood I think often we are you know living in line with our values we're doing things we love we know who we are and then suddenly motherhood is like I think of it like a jigsaw puzzle it kind of throws all the pieces up in the air and you're like you have no picture to put it back together again. So we borrow like another jigsaw box. And we're like, okay, well, the picture I need to follow is this mum who's devoted,

who enjoys every minute that horrific phrase, who, you know, never feels frustrated or ambivalent about motherhood, who never has an intrusive thought or thinks, have I made a mistake? All of which is completely normal. It's just that it hasn't been spoken about so what we really have to do is grab our own picture okay I'm going to be the sort of mum I'm always going to work because that's who I am yeah and actually parenting isn't about you know the tips and the scripts and it's about modeling who you are in the world yeah and using

that as an inspiration for your children like that's all we can do and I think when we try and not do that and become a mom like what does a mom look like dress like yeah like that's when we can get really lost yeah so I think it's so important I'm the same I've worked since I was 14 like there was no way that I was going to stop working it's a huge part of my identity yeah I'm incredibly proud that I've, you know, worked. I did have a little bit of time off with my first, but I was always, of course, squirrelling something on the laptop.

It's just who I am. And I can see those qualities in my girls. And I love it. Hi all, it's TV's Gail Porter here. I am so excited to tell you that I am joining the Paranormal Activity family and will be hosting a number of live podcast recordings across the UK.

The first is on the 6th of March at London's haunted Richmond Theatre. Expect terrifying tales, audience interaction and hopefully a spirit or two. I can't wait for you to join me and to hear your own paranormal experiences. You can find tickets at www.paranormalpod.co.uk No parent is the same. No mother is the same. and it's very difficult not to compare yourself you

know when you see mums online going you only have this time once what's the worst somebody I know I did it the other day and honestly I felt really really shit about myself after I watched it because I was like oh no you know she was like you know you never get this time back with your children so I don't think you should work. You shouldn't spend all the time with your child. I was like, no, because if I didn't work, if I didn't do that bit for me, I wouldn't be the mum that I am. I would be a lot less of a mum, I think. I really struggle with those because I think for many people, it's not a choice.

Exactly. And I said that as well I was like huge privilege to be able to choose like do I want to work how many days do I want to work that is a privilege not afforded to many so I also think that there is a huge difference between being present with your children and being with them. So when I was for about nine months full-time mum, I wasn't earning any income. I was just doing unpaid, you know, mum work in the home. I think I was less present than I am now, as in that full, like completely connected with them,

playing, my phone is nowhere near, you know, my head might be buzzing, but I'm sort of managing that so that i'm just really really present with them i do that more now because you're having your time as you as a as somebody that's working and out and about and doing your thing so then when you are home with your child yeah i'm exactly the same you're focused on them because you've got your you've got what you need out of the day exactly and then you can focus on your child like yeah complete completely in agreement yeah exactly another thing that um I heard you say um when you were speaking in your podcast

was the quickest way not to feel shame is sharing and that really really resonated with me because I'm an open book and I share it's probably a good good um podcast for me to host exactly yeah um I love to share because not only does it make me feel just a bit lighter when I do share I also feel like if I'm sharing this with another another, hopefully if they're feeling that way and they're not confident enough to say they're feeling that way, then it might make them feel a little bit better. I struggle quite a bit with people when they're closed because I want, you know, I want to hear things from people. I never forget, I remember I was talking to a woman and she's actually an influencer that

shares a lot online. And I was chatting to her just about like how I was feeling, like, you know, I was struggling and just as I would with anyone, nothing that I wouldn't tell anyone. And she said to me, she went, I think you share too much. I think you share, you need to be careful at how much you're sharing. And I was just like, what? And I remember when she you need to be careful at how much you're sharing and I was just like what and remember when she said it to me I was like I really don't agree like and I'm going to carry on sharing because and it really shocked me that she that she kind of felt that way that I was oversharing and it made it did knock my confidence a little bit with like being honest about things because because I was like god am I like overbearing do people not want to hear these

things are they like is it too much but I was like I sat and had a word with myself and I was like no because I would want to hear these things like especially as a new time a first time mum like you know if somebody had sat down to me and said, you might not feel the love straight away, or you might find this really hard and not enjoyable at all. Or you might want to go back to work when everybody else is happy in the park with their children. I would have, oh my God, benefited from that so much. So yeah, I always feel like sharing, sharing is caring, isn't it? yeah absolutely and I think it's a skill as well like I would make up with that other mum often we try and shut someone down

because it's uncomfortable for us so I would make up that maybe she's had some experiences where she's been vulnerable and been shamed for that and in a way there was some protection coming in for you that's what I would make make about that dynamic but we do have to be careful who we share with particularly in motherhood because like you experienced judgment is so high yeah and i think we have to be mindful of that like if we're gonna say what's on our insides what's on our hearts and say it out like that is that's really vulnerable and it's an incredible privilege for someone to hear it that's what I always think when someone's honest with me I think wow like what a privilege like they must think that I'm safe enough to hear these vulnerabilities like

that's incredible I think because we tend to you know as a society we're not amazing at hearing people's vulnerabilities we tend to want to fix or give advice i bet you've had this a lot where you share something and someone goes have you tried yeah you should i did it's really hard actually to just go wow that sounds really hard like i trust you're gonna figure your own way through this would you like some advice yeah you're asking the question would you like me to help you yeah do you want some advice or you just are you just sharing to get it off your to get it off your chest you do have to find your people I think absolutely in terms of sharing because I've definitely noticed it along the way there's people that I that I share probably even more with because I know I'm gonna get back from them what I need which is kind of reassurance a cuddle them saying to me how they feel as well

them sharing with me because I always find like when you share it's very difficult when the other person doesn't share anything back even though you're like I definitely know this happened to you why are you telling me your experience yeah because I really kind of said mine so that you would tell me something back to help me and then you're like oh I didn't get from that what I wanted it's the nicest feeling isn't it I think the worst feeling in the world in motherhood is is it just me or there's something wrong with me and I think that's the privilege of doing what you and I do right with podcast hosting is that you just any thought feeling experience I have now I know it's not just me

yeah and that is just such a gift it's like there's nothing wrong with me this is a normal experience of you know with motherhood because I spoke to that person who'd been through it or someone else who shared that with me so that's why I say shame really does reduce when you when you share it because it's when we keep things to ourselves and we think oh oh my God, I can't tell anyone about that. Yeah, yeah. And it's so funny because the amount of things, I'm like, God, that's so bad.

Like when you were saying about intrusive thoughts, it is unbelievable how many people have them. Like, you know, I'll just be sat there one day and I'll think, oh my God, imagine if Cooper ran into the road and got hit by a car. Oh my God, I need to hold him at all times. And I'm like, why did I just put myself through that absolute trauma?

I did an amazing episode on this. Intrusive thoughts is actually pretty much universal. Like 99% of mums actually experience them. Really? Yeah. It's just that we don't tend to talk about them. Often because they're violent. Often because they're scary. Often because we think if we talk about them often because they're violent often because they're

scary often because we think if we talk about them does that make them more powerful the opposite is true by the way if we say it out loud then it's real like i definitely had that thought yeah i think a lot of people get afraid that if they say it you know a social service is going to sweep in and take their child away or your friend's gonna think you're a bit of a nutter because you've said like we've got a load of glass in our house

glass as in glass windows not just like random bits of glass around our house shards yeah the shards of glass in our house

and I always think to myself god what if Cooper didn't know one of those doors was closed and he ran into it and it smashed on him like chopped

do you get visual with it yeah what if it chopped his leg off yeah or worse completely normal and when you I'm saying these out loud now And it smashed on him. Do you get visual with it? What if it chopped his leg off? Yeah. Completely normal. Completely normal.

And when you, I'm saying these out loud now to all you people listening, so you probably don't feel quite as bad. See, this is me sharing. But I do have those thoughts. So how would you, like, do we deal with them? Do we just accept them? I had these, right? And I had no idea. I didn't tell anyone. No.

Because I was like like I'm really worried about myself basically yeah you know and it can be some of you know it can be something if they're very very frequent and they feel completely unmanageable definitely go and speak to your GP but I recorded an incredible episode of my podcast with um a woman called Dr Caroline Boyd who's sort of a specialist she wrote her phd paper on intrusive thoughts in motherhood oh wow yeah so i was like you need to come and tell us what yeah exactly so i would really encourage everyone to go and listen to that because it completely changed so many people's experience of them you know really you can't

stop them coming what what happens is is when we become mothers or when we it's often when we're alone with our children that they start that was my experience it was when i've suddenly found myself alone with a baby that they really wrapped up it's our brain rewiring for the additional responsibility of you know caring for children or you know multiple children whatever your setup is that responsibility can make our brain start to almost go a bit haywire and think about everything that could go wrong she explains it far more eloquently than me the skill is to notice the thought but try and let it pass by which is really hard just label it this is an intrusive thought it's okay i'm safe my child is safe this is just my brain trying to

protect me trying to protect us and try and let it pass by is that what child is safe this is just my brain trying to protect me trying to protect us and try and let it pass by is that what it is then your brain just trying to kind of like protect yourself yeah of course this could happen yeah be be prepared yeah yeah because often first time mums will get them more acutely than second time mums which i experienced like with my first it was really bad my second i barely got them yeah because I think I'd adjusted to your brain and adjusted my brain and got used to the massive responsibility you knew what was happening second time round exactly exactly really really common but I would really encourage everyone to go and listen to the episode on mother kind with Dr Caroline Boyd I think I'm going to do it on my journey yeah that's what I'm going to do we're

nearly at the end I mean we could have chatted for hours I think but just going to do it on my journey home. Yeah. That's what I'm going to do. We're nearly at the end. I mean, we could have chatted for hours, I think. But just briefly, because I don't think we fully touched on the, was there four things that kind of go along with mum guilt? Yes. So what are they? Yes. Just a brief. Let me just tell everyone my model just so that they've got it in their pockets.

That's what I want. So I call it the 80-20 guilt model. 20% of the guilt that you're feeling is that productive guilt that good guilt that guilt that actually oh I messed up I'm gonna do something different 80 is not guilt at all we've just mislabeled it and through all this research and speaking and coaching and interviewing that I've done I've boiled it down to five things that I think it is yeah and I'll just quickly return the first one is tension so often we'll experience tension because we can't be in two places in once so right now I'm experiencing

a bit of tension like my little one's at nursery and I'm here that's a choice that I've had to make yeah and whenever we make a choice like in a restaurant you know whenever we ordered that dish we didn't get that dish it's like oh yeah you know so whenever we make a choice and we make endless choices in motherhood you know endless all day every day yeah there's just tension there and what I really found working with clients and my in my own life the moment I accepted that okay I just feel some tension because I can't be in two places at once because I have to make a decision about which school and I want both or I don't want either I just have to make a choice there's tension if we

think about it outside our lives in motherhood there's tension in every choice there is well I just don't put as much pressure on it exactly so when we take the pressure off and accept it you know when you pull a rope and there's loads of tension it's like drop just drop the rope yeah so that's the first one that is a lot of it right is tension yeah the second one is inner critic so a lot of what we call guilt actually isn't guilt because we haven't done anything wrong remember guilt is when you've done something wrong that you want to change yeah it's often just your inner critic and something fascinating is that the more that we care about something the louder that critical voice will become and we know this from like work projects right when something's really important you're like i'm gonna miss it oh i'm gonna do it wrong it's the same and like most of us don't

care about anything more than our children and so that critic can get really loud and i'm completely obsessed about happy mums change that critic we'll do a follow-up episode yeah no we need yeah yeah my critic is yeah very critical and there's lots you can do about that but that is often what we call guilt we'll say I'm feeling guilty but we're not actually guilty yeah it's that our inner critic is really I think that's probably a really big percentage for me yeah actually yeah exactly and the next one is the one that you and I were referring at the start which is around standards yes so often we say I'm feeling so guilty that dot dot dot but actually it's not guilt you haven't done anything wrong by getting something out of the freezer or serving fish fingers what you're doing is measuring yourself against someone else's standard right

that we've absorbed often from like tv shows like neighbors when we were growing up or you know what our mums did or we just absorbed these standards and then we're measuring ourselves against them and it's such a simple fix that because the moment you come aware of it you're like oh my god i'm doing that thing i'm measuring myself against this pollyanna perfect mom that does not exist they don't it don exist. You'd be surprised how many mums claim that they're cooking all these fabulous, healthy home-cooked meals. They're not. No.

They're putting fish fingers in like the rest of us. And even if they are, then that's their standard. Yeah. And they'll be having lower standards in other areas. Exactly. That you and I might have a higher standard in. Yeah, their house might be filthy. Exactly.

They might not have washed their hair for a year. So that's all good. Because they're at the start. Yeah, exactly. Different standards for a year so that's all good different standards for everybody and that is fine and i think i love this idea of define your own job description yes like what is important to you and each and every one of us would have a different list of what was important to us in motherhood we're not all good at everything you and i would be different the things that we focus on worry about want to get right our list would be different so The things that we focus on, worry about, want to get right, our list would be different. So measure yourself against the things you actually care about. That's so true.

And then give yourself some grace for the things that aren't important to you. Yeah, because I suppose we're all good at different aspects. Exactly. And the same goes for parenthood. We're all good at different things. Exactly. I'm amazing at role play and playing with the kids. I love it. This embarrassing Amdram character comes out exactly I'm amazing at role play and playing with the kids I love it

this embarrassing like am dram character comes out and I'm I'm into it and I've got friends who are like oh my god you're so bad I can't play and I'm like yeah but I'm completely disorganized with all the school and nursery stuff yeah and you nail that every single time the skill is like let go of what you're not focused on or isn't important to you. And just embrace what you're good at. And know that, you know, that's what's important to your children, to see someone who's like celebrating who they are. Yeah. Not constantly beating themselves up of who they're not. It is so true because your child remembers you for being that kind of mum.

Exactly. I remember my mum. My mum's an amazing cook and the most cuddliest woman you could ever meet. And that is my memory of, I mean, she's still alive. That's my current memory of mum is that's the type of person she is. It's actually all my friend's memory because she's like the epitome of the word mummy. I don't remember whether she was good at role play. I don't remember whether the house was clean.

I don't remember any of those things i just remember the things that give me that gorgeous like warm love feeling it's that really famous quote isn't it is that is that what children remember is how it feels like if i look i do this incredible coaching exercise where i get people to look back at their own childhoods and think about their children looking back on their childhood now as we're living it yeah you don't remember the details you remember how it felt yes and that's what I think about all the time like I know my children feel loved I know they can see me living a life that I love they can see I'm happy yeah and that is the feeling of our home yeah not about the fact that you know we had fish fingers for seven times that week it's all good it doesn't matter to me. Someone else might, it might matter. But when we define

those standards, like that is where freedom is. And then the next one is just so that we get through them. I'm like, stay focused. The next one is I call it permeating. And this is where when we take on someone else's feelings and call it our guilt, for example, we might want to go out to a yoga class or something and the children might be crying about it. And your partner, if you have one, might be like, oh, really? Do you have to go? Those are their feelings. Yeah, that's such a good point. We don't need to take those on and feel guilty about it because it's like, well, hang on, let's think about it.

It's in line with my values and my standards for myself to do something for myself because I know I'm going to feel better. You know, I want to be energized when I come back in. So it's almost imagining like a glass wall between their feelings and our feelings and not taking them on as our own. And really, that's a really good thing because I definitely do that. Like, say if me and Danny, like, have a diary clash and I'm like, well, look, mine's well look mine's work yours is you know I don't know you're going to play golf yeah so really mine takes precedent over yours and then I feel terrible because I stopped him doing something he wants to do yeah so yeah I completely get that but you shouldn't you shouldn't tear that on that's if they want to sulk let them sulk that's his feeling my thing i'm good yeah sometimes i visualize literally like giving it back yeah like actually

this isn't mine yeah i don't feel guilty about this yeah you feel not i'm gonna give that feeling back to you and dr becky who she runs something called good inside and she came on the podcast and she said this thing that just blew my mind and And she said, you know, Zoe, your ability to get your needs met in motherhood depends on your tolerance for others' disappointment. And I was like, that is so true. That is a great point. We just have to tolerate other people maybe being a bit disappointed. Yeah. Including our kids.

And the thing is. And our friends and our family, like, actually, no, I'm going to do this thing. Or I'm not going to do this thing. Yeah. But it's ingrained in us to not want to disappoint anyone isn't it that's where we really trip up and we call it guilt yeah it's not guilt that's our people pleasing that's not guilt Zoe I mean this has been an incredible chat I love doing this job because I it's basically like I get to like have therapy every single session. But thank you for coming on. That was so insightful and incredible. And I think we do need to do a follow up because I think there's so much more to talk about.

There's just so much isn't there? Because it's so complex, motherhood and everything that we bring to it and our experiences of it. And our little full brains, they are complex, aren't they? But thank you. It's been absolutely lovely having you on oh no you're welcome thank you for having me thanks for listening to mum's the word the parenting podcast make sure to hit the subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode we'll be back with another episode same time same place next week