No Laying Up - Golf Podcast - 921: Golf Feuds Deep Dive

Episode Date: November 6, 2024

KVV and Soly are back with another deep dive pod. This time we look at two golf feuds featuring a couple of hall-of-fame players who went toe to toe over a rules infraction at a Skins Game and one landmark event in Ryder Cup history that a certain group of golf media just can't seem to get over. If you enjoyed this episode, consider joining The Nest: No Laying Up’s community of avid golfers. Nest members help us maintain our light commercial interruptions (3 minutes of ads per 90 minutes of content) and receive access to exclusive content, discounts in the pro shop, and an annual member gift. It’s a $90 annual membership, and you can sign up or learn more at nolayingup.com/join Support Our Partners: Rhoback fanduel.com/nlu The Stack System Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Be the right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about in? That is better than most. Better than most. Expect anything different? Better than most. Expect anything different. All right, folks, we are back with my guy, Kevin van Valkenburg, ready to talk about some golf feuds. This one's been on our list for a long time.

Did a little digging on some things and come up. We might get a little creative with this series as it goes along. This is the first iteration of golf feuds. Kevin, where does your mind go when you think of golf feuds? Well, you know, I think we were thinking about this, Sully, and you think like rivalries first, right? You think Tiger and Phil, you think like Arnie Jack, but I think we wanted to be like a little bit more creative with this. And so if I can go ahead and just announce mine now, I decided that I wanted to do essentially everything that spawned out of the Brookline Ryder Cup incident from 1999. We have joked about this many times about how, you

know, obviously, a tremendous breach of etiquette by the United States in 1999, when Justin Leonard made a putt to you know take the lead briefly in the Ryder Cup that ultimately like won the Ryder Cup for the United States the greatest comeback at the time in Ryder Cup history. Jose Maria Olavo still had a putt that could have tied that hole and sent the match on to 18. Which we're gonna laugh a lot about this today, but upfront do acknowledge it was poor etiquette. Like there's no question about that. Let's be clear.

It was poor etiquette. The US made an emotional rash, a shitty decision. I kind of wish that something like this would happen in this era because Twitter obviously didn't exist. Like sports talk shows were not really in existence back then. There was, you know, you have to wait like every week for the sports reporters to sort of come around or like Roy Firestone to grill someone.

There wasn't the daily sort of like exchange of a commentary that went on, but the lot of it occurred to, to our credit or to our blessing in newspapers back and forth. And so what we're going to do is sort of recount how for 25 years, uh, the European media was not able to let this go despite apologies, despite passage of time. So that's, I'm very excited to recount some of this. Well, you're going to go first, but what I ultimately landed on was something I've just always heard about, heard it referenced, you know, didn't really understand the history behind it.

And that is the feud between Tom Watson and Gary Player dating back to the 1983 skins game. I'm probably going to detour a little bit during that, just to talk about the skins game in general, because the whole concept, I always viewed that feud like, that's very silly. You're doing a hit and giggle skins game here. Why are you like accusing somebody of cheating during this? But then it's like, oh, this is why I see why now. And of course it has Gary player. We really flipped these. You're doing writer cup and I'm doing Gary player. I don't know how we ended up there, but uh, we got to keep the audience guessing. I think we'll both participate back and forth in each other's a little bit from memory.

So well, I am over the moon to hear about Brookline. So I'm going to toss it to you first. Okay. All right. So let's set the stage first of all, because it's kind of important to sort of have the context of this. So in 1999, the Europeans led 10 to six going into the final day of the Ryder Cup. And if you remember, this US team was very highly thought of. You know, I had, I think, you know, I want to say nine or 10 of the top 12 players in the world. And so there was a little bit of, I guess, cockiness and arrogance from some of the members of the US

team. If you recall, Payne Stewart said, on paper, this is before the event started, they should be caddying for us. And Jeff Maggert said, Jeff, Jeff Maggert is talking shit. You know that there are some, uh, going on. They lost the last two Ryder Cubs.

Yeah. Said, let's face it. We've got the 12 best players in the world. Uh, so obviously like it didn't quite go that way. The first few days, the Europeans were really good in alternate shot as they often are really good in four ball and they jumped out to a 10 to six lead in bodacious fashion like Padraig Harrington stepping off shots from the fairway from

100 yards away ridiculous celebrations from Sergio. Yes, like there was almost like egging it on a little bit. Now listen, does things get a little out of hand? I would most certainly say that they do, but this was not kind of out of nowhere, which look, it's like, all right, the US was shit talking. Europe jumps out to this lead. They're going to give it to them a little bit, deserve it. I get it. That's all part of the game, but this is the, this is the combination of you just don't do that. And it just gets amplified times 1000 emotions and tensions were high and

Sally, I want to preface this right now up front by saying we love our many listeners in in Great Britain, Ireland, Scotland, I'm going to do some bad accent during this. I just I cannot resist. There's some wonderful writing by our, our British, Irish, English, Scottish, Welsh friends over there. And I'm going to have to, you know, do some of the accents. Cause that's just how I tell stories. We would expect nothing less if this is, if that offends you, this pod might not be for you. You can sort of step aside. You get to win all the rider cups. We get to have fun on the, on this path. All right. That's a fair trade.

As we've always said, sorry, when the Americans lose the rider cup, they blame the Americans. When the Europeans lose the rider cup, Europeans blame the Americans. That is a standard that has just held up over time. So if you remember, call in Montgomery, which was on the receiving end of a lot of abuse, uh, in this rider cup, a lot of sort of taunting, a lot of calls that, you know, he was out of shape, that he looked like Mrs. Doubtfire. But you got to remember a little bit, there's some context here that Monte was not exactly

like a gracious winner in previous Ryder Cups. During the 1997 Ryder Cup Valderrama, he suggested in the pre press conference that Brad Faxon might not play well because he was going through a divorce. Oh my God. And he said that he basically said that Scott Hoke was likely to choke again because he had revealed his like susceptibility to choking and pressure during the 1989 Masters. So, Monty said this. Monty said this. This is when Monty was still like, he's going to win many majors was, you know, Europe's

best player and all this. So Monty made himself an easy target. He actually on the Saturday night before he denies this for years. But I think I would believe the person he told you, J.A. Donde, who is, you know, on around the horn for many years is now like the director of sports journalism at Northwestern University, said that Monte told him in like a scrum on Saturday night, you know, we've won, don't you? Which Monte then so I've said many things over the years that were

unacceptable. I would never have said that. Anyway, so in an effort to sort of get the United States team fired up for a potential comeback, Ben Crenshaw, very patriotic guy, had George W. Bush read, come to sort of address the team. George W. Bush then was the governor of Texas, future president. And George decide, Mr. Bush, Mr. Governor Bush at the time, said that he wanted to read the famous letter that William Travis wrote to sort of call for reinforcements when they were defending the Alamo in 1836. And this is from an oral history of golf I just wrote. I'm going to read it in my George Bush voice. I walked in the room and I was surprised by the relaxed atmosphere of the players. And as I read Travis's famous letter, the room was silent and the players and wives seemed to listen to every word. I finished with the victory or death,

wished them Godspeed and told them the country was pulling for them and immediately left the room. I wasn't sure of the effect. So I wanted to pull up the letter. Did you practice that? Did you practice? No, no, I'm going to read it on this. Imagine George Bush reading this. I shall never surrender or retreat. Then I call on you in the name of liberty, of patriotism, and everything dear to the American character to come to our aid with all dispatch. The enemy is receiving reinforcements daily and will no doubt increase to three or 4,000 in four or five days. If this call is neglected, I am determined to sustain myself as long as possible and die like a soldier who never forgets what is due to his honor and that of his own country victory or

death. William Barrett, Travis, Lieutenant Colonel Commander. So this so fired up the Americans. Let's go hit some six iron. We're going to chip up the dad. David Deval apparently stormed out of the room shouting, uh, let's go and kill them. Uh, which, you know, enraged the Europeans, uh, a lot too. There's some other great details. This is from Force Illustrated. A video was shown on the like before the night before and included highlights from each player's career and a personalized cheer by a cheerleader from every player's college. The video also included the scene from Animal House in which the

Delta fraternity house is about to be closed and Blutarski asked his brethren, was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? One more favorite thing about this, apparently. So at Valderrama, they lost famously despite being like, you know, heavily favored desert. When this was back when tiger was, you know, the appeared on the scene. I've never read this anecdote before.

Sorry. Apparently before the night before Sunday and Valderrama, when they were trying to kind of inspire a similar comeback, they went around the room and Tiger was like very young at this point. So no one really knew like whether he should take a leadership role or should be sort of like take a back seat and things. And they asked Tiger to say a few words. And there was like a can on like one of the like, room like the chairs or the desk or something on their table. And Tiger said, You see that can? That's a can of whoop ass. Let's go out and whoop

ass tomorrow. Apparently, apparently, like the later in the lead up to the writer cup in 99, Julie Crenshaw and Ben were a vacationing and tell your ride. And they were walking past like, what are those like stores where they sell like chachkas and shit. And there was a can of whoop ass in the store. And so they bought it and like wrapped it up and gave it to tiger during the writer cup, uh, the, in the lead up to, uh, into Brookline. So, uh, more honestly,

we need to go back and re like redo like 10 years worth of pods and knowing that cause that would have come in in a lot of different places. Let's open up a can of whop ass on them. Hey, Eduardo, or hey, Francesco, I'm about to open up a can of whop ass on you. All right. So the U S wins the first six matches in 1999. You know, and all of a sudden, like the Europeans are starting to panic. Obviously history has sort of shown that Mark James did not play, you know, three players, Jarmo Sandlin, John Vandeveld and, God, who is the third? Andrew Coulthard. Andrew Coulthard. So, there was a little bit of panic amongst Europeans of like, oh shit, like maybe like

we've been rope-a-doped in this whole thing. But Justin Leonard's match is turning out to be like super important and he is down four through 12 holes to Jose Maria Olathobo. But he kind of, Jose Maria Olathobo makes a bad bogey on 13. Leonard wins the hole, sort of climbs back into it, climbs back into it. Wolfie would want me to mention here also that Justin Leonard did not win a single match that week and is down four. So he's looking like a goat. Crenk-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein-Klein- couch. Johnny was fucking Ruth Ruthless. Johnny later said that that was he had a mulligan in his career, that would be one that he would want because he felt like he had sort of

unfairly shit on Leonard, but he was his job to be sort of critical and to tell the truth. I'm now mad at Johnny for apologizing for that. Like you definitely that is within the bounds of what you should be able to say as a commentator. Yep. One of course, give a shout out to our friends at Roeback continuing to make the best apparel in the game. I'm absolutely obsessed with their stuff.

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Back to the pod. So turns out like as the matches are sort of coming down to it that the U.S. only needs a half to win the Ryder Cup to get to 14 and a half points. And on 17, it's all square and Leonard hits a wedge that looks like it's going to stop at like two or three feet from the cup and spins way back all the way down the hill. And Jose Maria hits it to 25 feet or so. So like big advantage to the internationals. But of course, the most famous parts of European history, European, sorry, Europeans, one of the most famous parts in American history, Justin Leonard rolls in

a 45 birdie putt 45 foot birdie putt that's probably going to go 10 feet by if it doesn't hit the hole, but drops into the hole. And he runs across runs to his left, the green and the American team sort of in its excitement runs onto the green spills over as celebrating with him. Now, Sally, I think this is a moment where I want to pause for a second and tear down a myth that has persisted for many, many years. That somebody went in Jose Maria with Havel's line. Exactly. Which is bullshit. You will hear many, many recountings in this over this, what,

in this pod here where I talk about this, where they make it seem like the Americans grinded their feet all over Jose Maria, like stomping on his side. It did not happen. This is one of my favorite pictures of all time. You can see up in the right hand corner. This is Tiger Woods jumping approximately seven feet in the air like he is almost at like Tom layman shoulders here. But here you can see in the background Jose Maria Othabo like thinking over

and the you know, thinking over his line his putt, all of the Americans run to the right of this thing. They're all sort of jumping on top of you can see Phil Mickelson to great if you're not if you're listening in your car, there's a YouTube version of this as well. And you can see, yeah, Phil's about to just grab Amy by the face and give her a big old... He's saying, we won, we won. Well, of course, they had not won. Jose Maria has a chance to make this 25 footer to have the match, send it to 18, where, of course, if the Europeans win that, they likely win the Ryder Cup, or retain the Ryder Cup at least, although there was another match between Payne Stewart and Colin Montgomery,

still ongoing, that could have decided the Cup that Payne Stewart ultimately concedes on the 18th green as a sort of a make-up to our bad behavior and the behavior that Monty had been treated with throughout the week. So let's just make it clear for history's sake. They do not run across Jose Maria, all of Sabal's line. There is no evidence at all that exists that that happened. There's no pictures. I went through all of Getty's photography for it. I watched all the old videos there. They did not run across his line. Was it shitty? Of course, absolutely. It was shitty. Like there's still a chance to like literally,

you know, win the Ryder Cup here for the Europeans and the Americans are celebrating like they had won it. And this reminds me of, uh, is it slim Charles? It's like, if it's a lie, it's a lie. We fight on that lie on that lie. 25 years they've been fighting on that lie. So Johnny Miller says, you know, the Americans should really compose themselves here. Really poor sportsmanship on the US's part. True.

Very true. So, Old Fable has a putt. He backs away from it because like a car alarm or something is going off in the background, you know, the crowd, ooh. But you know, he gets over it. It's a pretty good putt, but it's a good six inches, eight inches left of the hole. The Americans win. So now, Ben Crenshaw leans down and kisses the 17th green three

times. Again, this will be distorted and confused for years that somehow Ben did this after Justin Leonard's putt that he was disrespectful. Crenshaw, of course, you know, was doing this in part because Francis Womay was sort of a famous American. He lived across the street from the 17th green, won the, you know, the US open way back. I think it was 1913. Yeah. So kind of a famous moment in American history golf, you know, beat Harry Varden and Tommy Ray. And so Crenshaw was sort of linking and connecting those things. Ted Ray, just so you don't get canned.

Ted Ray, sorry. Saying that, you know, this, the 17th green at Brookline has been very good to Americans. So obviously, you know, the US has won the Ryder Cup, but this is truly just the beginning of what will sort of be 25 years of kind of back and forth over what has happened in the last, you know, two minutes. Olathobble later says, that was no way to behave. I call for respect from the fellow professionals to make sure it doesn't happen again. It was very sad to see an ugly picture. Totally understandable.

Jose Maria Olethawal, in fact, is probably the least offended of all the people that as things have gone down. So I'm going to sort of just take you through kind of a little bit of a timeline, Salih, of the initial reaction. Jesper Parnevik says, I had so many American friends who apologized to me for being American that day. Sure. Yeah. People just walking up. I'm so sorry. I apologize. That sounds like our country. Yeah. Yeah. David Duvall in a in a golf digest oral history later said, I think it's obvious that we were wrong. You'd have to go

to the source, however, and Jose said it was wrong, shameful unsportsmanlike, whatever. But he also said it had no bearing on the outcome of his put whatsoever. Nobody stepped in his line. End of story. Not everyone saw it this way. European Vice Captain Sam Torrance, who is standing behind the green, fumed and said, it's the most disgusting thing I think I've seen in my life. That's not sour grapes. This whole American team and spectators ran right across the green over Olly's line.

He still had a putt to tie the hole and we could still take the Ryder Cup home. Torrance then singled out Tom layman, who's also celebrated wildly after holding a long birdie putt against Lee Westwood earlier in the day, and said it was disgusting. And Tom layman calls himself a man of God. His behavior today was disgusting. his behavior today was disgusting. That's what about man of God is that all time golf quotes, just because he ran on the green excitedly. So this isn't really I would say I wouldn't frame this as like European players versus

American players. I think we're going to sort of actually kind of discuss this in the context of like European media versus like American culture. American's in general. Yeah. Americans in general. Yeah. The Daily Mirror, their kind of recounting of this says, football hooligans act better

than the way the Americans have treated the Ryder Cup over the last three days. Their antics whip the crowd into an uncontrollably boorish behavior. Sporting relations between the two nations have now slipped to an all time low. Some of the other recountings of the press the next day, how to win a cup but lose all dignity. In the London Evening Standard, the Daily Mirror headline was United slobs of America. The Daily Mirror headline was United Slobs of America. The headline on the sun was simply disgusting. Some other headlines in the London tablets, a horror show, utter disgrace. The Times of London called it a tainted triumph. In the London Evening Standard, Matthew Norman wrote, Let's be painfully honest about it.

Yes, they are repulsive people, charmless, rude, cocky, mercenary, humorless, unpardonably ugly. The fact that Jim Furyk is playing golf at all is a disgrace. He should be played by Igor, one of those creatures who says, Earthlings master in a horror movie, full of nauseatingly fake religiosity and as odious and victory as they are unsporting in defeat. The only thing to be said for American golfers in fact, is that at golf if nothing else, they are

better than Europeans. The Daily Mail said red, rednecks show that it may be time to start trading punches, not pleasantries. The Rednecks of Boston. The Daily Mail truly took this shit personally. Jesus. I'm gonna just go ahead and read this entire column by Liz Kelly. Daily Mail, what is that on news versus tabloid,

kind of New York Post-y? Kind of more tabloid-y, yeah, for sure. It's not like The Times of London, you know, The Telegraph, the Guardian, those are a little bit more of the respectable papers were daily mail kind of like I would say the New York Post. Alright, so I'm gonna go ahead and read this entire column by Daily Mail columnist Dez Kelly, who has been a sort of prominent

soccer journalist and golf journalists for many, many years now. Forget what he does now, but he was a columnist for the Daily Mail for many years. USA, the land of the free. Free fries, that is. Free cheeseburger and soft drink if you spend more than $5. This bloated continent, this sea of cellulite, the nation that brought you all you can eat restaurants and the elastic waistband, spent the weekend insults at Cal and Montgomery. And what did they shout at Europe's leading golfer? Hey Monty hit a salad bar! Brilliant eh? Let's

try to ignore the fact that most of them have back sides the sides of Buckingham Shire and trundle from one drive-in restaurant to another, slurping coke from cups big enough for a child to drown in. This is America, where big has to be bigger, where huge is not enough. But judging by the behavior of the players and the spectators at the Ryder Cup, some things are still dealt out in small portions, brains and manners, for instance, when American players their caddies, their ghoulish wives, the usual

the useless marshals and some hot dog sellers and a passing Disney parade trampled onto the seventh green after Justin Leonard's putt. It was not some moment of pure sporting joy. It was oafish and embarrassment to behold. Jose Maria Thabel should be applauded for not using his club as a weapon. The public galleries used to gasp in horror if a golfer dared to do anything as demonstrative as doff his cap in celebration when the ball dropped in the hole. Well, times change, but it should still be not be acceptable to punch the air and whoop like a baboon and do the Charleston on the line of your opponent's

butt. on the line of your opponent's butt. The Americans are mainly responsible for turning this competition into a transatlantic slanging match where good manners and any sense of sportsmanship have been hit out of bounds. Payne Stewart started this dissent by saying the Europeans were not fit to caddy for Americans. From there it was all downhill. America's entire sporting culture is driven by a win-at-all-cost mentality. We've won, you've lost, who cares how it happened?

This is why they give university scholarships to teenagers who can barely read, merely because they can run fast or catch a ball. These kids spend their entire college lives being told first is everything and second is nothing. And that's as academic as it gets. So if you're ever angered by the moronic chance of USA, just try to remember how much effort went into learning those three syllables and try to have a little pity. We shouldn't be surprised when they act like spoiled children against other countries in team sports.

when they act like spoiled children against other countries in team sports. After all, it's not something they're used to. Baseball's World Series, the game of rounders between two teams in the USA. The Super Bowl World Champions tend to be American, strangely enough. When they step outside this arena, everything is turned into pseudo war. You only have to listen to some of the bilge coming out of the US camp this week. Take Phil Mickelson. He said Governor George Bush arrested the team and told us about a man at the Alamo in 1836.

He was holding off a couple thousand troops and it didn't look as if he was going to make it, but he was going to fight to the end. We needed to fight as if we were in war. Oh, past the sick bag. David DeVore, meanwhile, stopped waving those stumpy arms around for a moment in order to record his contribution to the debate. I said we had to kill him, he boasted. Tiger Woods added, we all shared what we thought. And it was very emotional and very beautiful. Oh, shut up, tiger. It was not beautiful. It was pathetic and ugly. The Boston newspaper gloated.

U.S. team moiled the bums. This wasn't golf. This was tourist abuse. Bums, eh? Will it remind you how Americans abused Brookline's tourists? Mark James' wife was spat on. Sergio Garcia's caddy, an American, was beaten up in a Boston bar for being a traitor. Players like Montgomery were abused throughout. On the course, Mickelson drove off before Europe's players reached the tee. There were other tricks too. European debutante Andrew Coulthard was deliberately sent 40 yards in the wrong direction as he searched for his ball. By the time he found

it, his five minutes had expired and Europe lost the hole. But as cold heart walked away, the official ball spotters were doing high fives. What a clever jape. Remember, remember this story when some liver spotted American pensioner is wearing Macintosh trainers lurches up to you and asks, Hey, can you tell me the way to L'Ache de Square? And enjoy the icy chill of revenge when you guide Sherman and his wife Myrtle onto the Eurostar bound for Paris instead. Davis Love tried to justify the stomach-churning American behavior by claiming European fans tried to trip him with umbrellas two years earlier in Spain. A feeble effort. He also whined that American wives had been called flight attendants and bimbos. He missed out on Barbies, pom-pom girls, and Stepford wives too, but never mind.

The American media have been calling this office challenging our United Slobs of America tag. Apparently they believe this country is not entitled to comment on their bad behavior because we have football hooligans. Maybe we do. But let's work out where you would feel safer taking your child, a Millwall home match or a Los Angeles playground. I'll leave that one to you. Okay, we might have lost the golf, but we did not lose our dignity. So give thanks to the USA for feeding one appetite, our deep rooted desire to feel superior to others. And yes, it's a great place to visit. But then so is

the zoo. And you wouldn't want to live there either. Holy shit. That was the wildest golf column I've ever heard slash read that I've never heard anything like that. Like, so that 80% that is in drafts and just waiting for the international incident. It's like, okay, now it's time to go. Listen, I will say, I do enjoy a good, sassy provincialism, like defending of your home turf shitting on the I mean, as long as like the writing is sort of sharp. And some of that is a

little, it's a certain cliche, but long as like the writing is sort of sharp. I mean, some of that is a little, it's a certain cliche, but at least like, it's sort of, I don't know. It just got, I could not believe that when I found that how delightful, full of like bile that was. And you'll, this is like in the cup, this is like a week after the thing, but we're gonna recount some of the-

Real quick on that though, like, this might not go off very well, but this was something that, like, if you'd read that to me 10 years ago, I'd have been, like, furious and been like, you don't understand American culture. And, like, after living abroad a little bit, I'm like, yeah, that's kind of how people view America.

And, like, if you really go line by line in that, it's pretty tough to argue point by point. I don't know how much you need to do it, but it's not inaccurate. Ultimately, by point. I don't know how much you need to do it, but it's not inaccurate. Tim Cynova, MPH, PhD, PhD, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH,

MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, MPH, actually sort of saw a lot of the same kind of feelings that the European media did. The Los Angeles Times said the entire US team violated every principle of proper golf decorum and decent manners. Can you be much more unsporting? Probably not. The Washington Post said, it seems an American team can't get through an international competition without acting like jackasses at some point. Hal Sutton later said, it was unfortunate, but certainly there was no ill will.

Maybe I should do a Hal Sutton Texas accent here to be both sides. It was unfortunate, but there was certainly no ill will. It was like a catch-22. I knew Olathabo had a chance to make that putt and tie the hole. At first I said, I'm not going to run out there. But then everybody else got out there and I thought if somebody saw me they would say what's wrong with

Howe why isn't he celebrating with him? I was in a no-win situation Poor Howe tough spot so the following day European golfers This is from ESPN European golfers may refuse to play in another Ryder Cup Hell United States because of fans abusive behavior towards them and their families. A lot of players will not be bothered by competing in America, will not be bothered competing in America again, said Mark James in the British newspapers.

Certainly that is the case with me. It's not something I would look forward to. We don't need to be treated like this. James said that a fan spat on his wife. Again, no witnesses to this have ever like emerged, no pictures, no video, anything. This has always been sort of disputed by the American, you know, like Davis Love, a big sort of like, ah, come on guys, like that sounds like bullshit. Colin Montgomery said his 70 year old father who traveled from

Scotland left the course Sunday because of the merciless heckling. James said, if I had been playing myself, I might have lost my temper completely. Cheering when you miss putts or hit into bungers is one thing, but personal abuse is something different. We're going to get into this situation where fights break out if we don't stop this right now. Which again, that's where I'm like, that's accurate.

The Brookline did get out of hand with the crowd. Just kind of kept building. You see the guy next to you yelling something that makes you want to yell'm like, that's accurate. The Brookline did get out of hand with the crowd. Just kind of kept building. You see the guy next to you yelling something that makes you want to yell something. That crowd in Boston was something different. And I don't blame them for a lot of this. Again, directly, the ridiculousness is that they ran across all these lines, which did not happen, but the abuse was very real. If you're a 70-year-old dad and you're just walking around here and your son just getting absolutely pelted every single hole, every shot he hits, that's tough.

For sure. It was just awful, said James' wife, Jane. A kid spat at me and there were lots of, now spat at me, not on me, but just to be clear. There were lots of incidents, people telling us to go home. I would hate it if we allowed ourselves to descend to this level where the match goes to the belfry. Michael Ballenac or Ballen lack a secretary for the Royal and Ancient of in St. Andrews said that he referred to Brooklyn as a bear pit which will later be the title of Mark James's autobiography. I feel embarrassed for golf. It went beyond the decency you associate with proper golf. I love the Ryder Cup. I don't want to see it degenerate into a mob

demonstration every time we play it. Crenshaw sort of apologized said obviously Boston was swept up in a motion to suggest that Europeans are not vocal is wrong. They are the Ryder Cup is about partisan support. Believe me, it's no different when we are over there. Just ask some of the players who played at Valderrama. It's not like this has never happened before. Montgomery claimed that fans were shouting during his backswing. I can't tell you the number of occasions I had to back off a shot, he said.

Personal attacks should never happen. And it's not just me on the receiving end of them nowadays. Crenshaw did concede he does not deserve some of the treatment that he gets. Line up your first win when you bet this week on Fandl, America's number one sports book. You'll get started with $200 in bonus bets guaranteed when you place your first $5 bet. You can check out live golf markets every week to stay in the action even after the first tee. You can track every shot live in the app and watch select par three holes while you place your bets. Just go to Fandl.com slash nl you

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Bonus issued is non-moderable bonus bets which expire seven days after receipt. Restriction supply, see terms at at sportsbook dot fandle.com. Didn't Monty and maybe you're getting there, but didn't Monty acknowledge that Payne Stewart like was was like kicking people out and like fighting for him and that singles match. Do I remember that right? Yes. So Monty will sort of say that he will always be grateful

to Payne Stewart. This is sort of of course, the last significant tournament that will pain will ever sort of, of course, the last significant tournament that Payne will ever participate in before he dies in a plane crash in spring. So Crenshaw apologizes again, sort of says like, hey, you know, but Monte says that Crenshaw's apology was too late. No amount of apology will ever make amends for what they did. This is again from the Daily, it's from the Daily Telegraph, not the Daily Mail. The behavior of the American team was not just on the 17th green. It might have been juvenile, but it certainly wasn't surprising. This is a country which is so insular that most Americans still believe that the Second World War was won by John Wayne.

That's good. That's good. Yeah. I do. I mean, the really the media stuff is the one that stuff makes me laugh the most. Not everybody was like super critical. Telegraph editor WF deeds wrote I found myself feeling faintly jealous of Americans capacity for emotion. We shrug our shoulders a lot. They really care. They want to win. They hate to lose. And this carries them beyond the game at Brookline. The right response now is to shrug our shoulders a lot. They really care. They want to win. They hate to lose. And this carries them beyond the game at Brookline. The right response now is to shrug our shoulders. But didn't stop other people from getting sort of nasty. Katie Battersby, a columnist for the Evening Standard said, many observers would have sworn that every man on the American team had married the same woman. Basically, a lot of shots at the American.

Jesus. Yeah, which kind of seems like, you know, like the whole mob mentality of like, hey, like, go after like, you know, various people with a mob, but leave wives and children out of it. No, that did not ever happen. Miguel Angel Jimenez said that he was considering retiring from the competition. They were like professional ice hockey players or footballers, not professional golfers. The tradition of the Ryder Cup is very important and if has to be like this, then I don't want to play in any more Ryder Cups. I never spoke

to the American players about it, but believe me, they are not winners. Ian Woosnum, who did not even play, said, no amount of apologies can make amends for what they did. It's a good thing I wasn't there or they would have had a few metal clubheads on some people's heads. Dave Slov claimed that the Europeans were sore losers. We didn't cry when we lost two in a row. They were poking umbrellas at us through the ropes trying to trip people from going to the green in Valderrama. How long have they been calling our wives flight attendants and bimbos?

They act like they're the only ones who do it. So I would like this is just a historical note. I would just like to pause here and know that for years the Ryder Cup was seen as sort of a sleepy affair like friendly match, you know, obviously like the famous incident where Jack Nuggets conceded the putt for Tony Jaclyn so that he wouldn't dare lose the Ryder Cup. But in 1957, the Ryder Cup sort of started to take on a little bit of a different tenor when Eric Brown, who is the playing captain for Great Britain, Ireland, he's from Scotland actually, he sent his caddy back to the clubhouse to bring him a chair so that he could sit on the chair every time Tommy Bolt got over the ball

because he felt that Bolt's pace of play was egregious. So the idea that the Americans are solely responsible for sort of shitty behavior in the history of the Ryder Cup is kind of a bit unfair. And this is like, this is the combination of the war by the shore to 91. Like that's where, you know, that's where it kind of went sideways, where there's a lot of documentation. We did a whole pod about that one too, if you want to go find that, but we can link it in the show notes if you want,

but that was a well-documented Bernard Gallagher is not over that one either. So things kind of tie down for a little bit. And then eight months later, Mark James's book comes out. It's called Into the Bear Pit, the hard hitting inside story of the Brookline Ryder Cup. Sports Illustrated in its review calls it petty, smug, and whining. James repeats the rant that Torrance made about Tom Lehman. He calls himself a man of

God. James says, that was the most disgraceful thing I've ever seen. I will never be able to look on him in the same light again." Why layman got like a majority of blame is kind of crazy. Like we'll get into that. Because he calls himself a man of God. That's why. So I think layman just being like sort of, you know, an openly kind of like religious person. Layman during, prior to layman's match against Lee Westwood, he led the crowd in a rendition of God bless America, which the Europeans found very distasteful, very disrespectful. Of course, pumping is

just you just don't do that. James writes that Justin Leonard was trying to break the hundred meter record in an effort. Oh, sorry, sorry, layman, layman was trying to break the hundred meter record in an effort to get to Leonard and hug him. Uh, layman was sort of blindsided by this and says, uh, you know, that he had written James an apology, which James called a waste of ink. Oh my God. And he said, I hope he feels good. Jesus layman. I hope he feels good about making money off of taking shots at other people's character

and integrity. He's dragging the rider Cup through the muck. Again, kind of there's some nuancedness to tell this like, the Europeans in dragging the Americans are kind of like letting their own team off the hook. Like you've friggin like choked away the Ryder Cup. And there's really no analysis of that whatsoever. This Scott Murray is a English columnist says, let's be honest, as good as complaining as

after as good as completing the Mother of all compacts. Can you blame the Americans for stampeding across all of those lines? It didn't happen. Can you really? I mean, all he missed his putt like he was always going to do. And all the subsequent huff and puff and bluster led an awful lot of Europeans off the hook and obscured an amazing American performance for which they have never been given proper huff and puff and bluster led an awful lot of Europeans off the hook. Wow. And obscured an amazing American performance for which they have never been given proper

credit on this side of the ocean. 100%. A year passes, we're thinking that things are going to die down or whatever, but the Americans are not blameless in continuing this sort of feud a little bit. In an interview with Golf Digest, Phil Mickelson says, he's sort of explaining what happened in the Ryder Cup, and he says, it was said in European team meetings, whether they will admit it or not, that the best way to bother the Americans is to slow play them, hit an exorbitant amount of practice putts, whatever, so that we'd have to play at their pace.

When Tom Lehman and I played against a match against Darren Clark and Lee Westwood, we had just won the 10th hole, and that's exactly what they did. So I walked off to the next tee, teed off because I wasn't going to let the rhythm and wasn't going to let my rhythm and timing get affected by my opponent. They didn't like that. They still don't and they're still upset about it. Tanner Iskra You just don't do that. Jason Kemp You just don't do that. You just don't slow play the Americans. That's just not fair. In my mind, not only did I not let them affect my play, but I was able to get upset and affect their play. So

it worked out great. They didn't do anything against the rules, which clearly you say that you can do that. I have no problem with what they did. Nobody was wrong. We just didn't agree on what each other did. However, referring to an inordinate length of time that Harrington took to play an approach shot and the preceding match against Marco Mara. So he walked all the way up the green, stepped it off essentially like a hundred yards. Mickelson said, my question is, is running onto the green, the same breach of etiquette is pacing 150 yards from your ball to the pin and back taking seven minutes to hit a

shot while your opponent is waiting. Is that a total lack of etiquette or is that acceptable? So of course, like the, the Europeans responded to this and reacted like stirring things up again. But you know, it's still not like, it's still kind of dying down, we think. Curtis strange says, I thought we crossed the line a bit a little bit, but how do you hold back the reins on a spontaneous emotion? It was a wonderful thing. Everybody wants to see the US team come

together. And when we did cross the line, I mean, we apologized, like, let's move on. Alright, so the year passes and we're back to again to, you know, building up towards the the next Ryder Cup, right? So Tiger Woods comes out and sort of kind of says like, hey, like we were in the wrong. He says, I hope at the belfry we get away from the atmosphere that we saw at Brookline because in far as I'm concerned, it wasn't a golf tournament at the end. I played against Colin Montgomery one day and the things the crowds were saying against him, that's downright wrong. In our sport, you just don't do that.

Yes. Hell, in general, you just don't do that. Oh, let it be known that Tiger is the origin of all this. In 2002, basically, the European media is still asking for an apology, even though many apologies have been given. Davis Love says, you know what? They say there is no apology needed. We understand that things got out of hand on the 17th green, but it didn't affect the

matches. We're all friends, so let's move on. They didn't expect us to sit down and beg forgiveness. They were happy to move on and go on as friends and there's no bad blood over any of these matches. And that's the way it ought to be. As for Brookline, there wasn't a whole lot of complaining on Thursday or Friday or Saturday. It was just some Sunday. On Sunday, they were happy. They weren't happy with the way things went

and it did get ugly. But it wasn't because of all of our fans it's just that they got beat bad. Outside of a few isolated drunks the Ryder Cup has been excellent every time I've played in it. All right fair enough. So we're still building towards the Belfry. Turns out that it's all like in the Accenture match play that year Jose Maria Olathathabel and Justin Leonard draw each other in the first round of the match play. And of course, the headline in the telegraph says Olathabel seeks revenge for Ryder. That'll do it. The Guardian and covering the match says the behavior of the American side so marred their triumph that it led to questions about whether

the contest should continue. It led to questions. I like these of passive voice there. All he did win that match and he got his revenge according to the Independent. I'm sure that, you know, Ollie would not quite see that as, you know, true revenge for what happened in the Ryder Cup. So again, like as we're building up to the Belfry, Tiger is kind of asked to reflect on Brookline. He says, everyone went over the top there. Not only the players, but the fans, the media, everyone. Here I think the atmosphere is completely different. It's already very different.

So Evening Standard writer Ian Chadband, this is in the lead up to the Belfry, says, in the buildup, it has almost been comical in the team's effort to make it clear that not a drop of bad blood exists between them. He refers to Curtis Strange's down to earth leadership as a welcome change from Crenshaw's star spangled garbage. It's really, if you ever like have met Ben Crenshaw, it's really hard to picture like the way he gets characterized for the way he led that team. Oh, but credit is like the nicest person ever. Yeah. There's a reason they call him gentle.

Yeah. So the Europeans win the Ryder Cup at Belfry. We come back to the United States in 2004. All right. So like surely like by now five years have passed. We're going to move on from this Ryder Cup. Right? No, because Hal Sutton

is the captain. Hal Sutton was of course a member of that Brookline team. The Guardian headline is Day of Shame that refuses to die. We're all looking for the ones who did this. So they're grilling Hal Sutton, you know, if the US should still be apologizing for this. Many, many apologize over it. So I'm going to read here from the Guardian. A clearly exasperated how Sutton fed up with reminders about the US behavior at Brookline in 99 told the European contingent in Detroit with this this week, you need to forget about it.

And the Daily Oakland Press headline accurately conveyed the spirit of his message to the headline, Sutton to Europeans colon, get over it. Asked if he was concerned that there might be a repeat of Brookline where Borish beard up crowds abuse the visiting team and spat on a European wife. He responded disgracefully to some equally disgraceful behavior by the American team. Sutton said, look, y'all been kind of like a bad marriage partner. We've apologized for five years about what happened in 1999. So y'all need to forget about that. No more apologies or anything else.

There's no way Hallimony went, uh, went for, went for the bad marriage, uh, analogy. Oh, and Europe jumped all over that. It said they might be regarded. This is from, uh, I believe the Daily Mail. It might be regarded as a cheap shot. It was easy way to find one in return. Sutton for years, an oil rich spoiled Texas playboy is currently on his fourth wife and still known though, not to his face as Hallimone asked if Sutton is going to basically tell his players that they have to behave. He says, it's a spirited competition and I don't want to put everybody in a straight jacket. There is a way to have free will and still do it the right way. That will be my challenge to allow a person to be himself.

I'm going to do my best as a captain and keep everyone in check, but I'm not worried about 1999. Sam Torrance is still going in on this thing. He's asked about it and he says, it was the most disgraceful and disgusting day in the history of professional golf. The spectators behaved like animals and some of the American players, most notably Tom Layman, acted like madmen. That's the worst Sam Torrance I've ever heard, but it makes it even funnier.

Apparently by this time, Lehmann and Torrance have gotten on the phone to talk about this and to try to sort of, kind of like clear the air, because Lehmann is like, understandably- Dude, what is going on here, man? As getting shit on. And Torrance says, I saw you run 50 yards

from the 17th green back down the fairway, stand in front of the crowd, fist pumping him into a frenzy. I watched you. I saw you. And what I said was that your behavior was not that of a man of God. This is Torrance recounting their conversation. Torrance says there was dead silence for maybe 10 seconds before he replied. And I remember his exact words, Sam, you make a good point. And I apologize from the bottom of my heart. And Crenshaw's autobiography comes out that year. He says, I just wish our sincerest apology had been good enough. But I had to wonder what would have happened if the European team had been in the same situation. So the open championship this year is at

Trune. And the headline in the Evening Standard says that Leonard's Ryder Cup rage can pass into history at Trune. Nearly five years out from Brookline, the scene of one of the greatest outrages in sporting history, the mere mention of Justin Leonard's name is enough to send shivers down the spine of a certain members of European golf hierarchy. Maybe it's time for bygones to be bygones and memories to mellow. All right, so you know, the European media is kind of moving on. You know,

it's been five years. Jack Nicklaus the same year writes a column for the Daily Telegraph, saying that while captains have a role to play in keeping proper decorum, it is not the most important role. It is the media that overhyped things and let it get out of hand, which started at Kiowa and came to a head at Brookline. We just got five more years of reaction to that quote. At Oakland Hills here in 2004, obviously the Europeans win in a rout, but you know, it's kind of like things sort of mellow to a sense of like the even the European media is kind of letting things go a little bit from the Irish independent that year.

Let's put an end to all the talk of the infamous Brookline crowd display right now. Yesterday and indeed throughout the three days of intense competition, much of it going against their team, the 40,000 per day crowds have been a credit to their country. They chanted USA and cheered their players loudly and urged them as they walked the fairways. But there were no nasty anti-European tinge to their highly vocable support. Their humor has been good. They have responded favorably to the Europeans all week, and even when there were some cheers yesterday at European Mrs. on Greens, the tone was not abusive. In short, Oakland Hills spectators have redeemed the honor of American golf fans, supporting their players loudly on Sunday, but wonderfully quiet when it came time to turn of European

to hit his golf shot. Before we start a 25-year war on this, I'd like to apologize to our Irish listeners for that English accent for the Irish Examiner quote. So I should redo that whole thing in an Irish accent? That might have been worse if you had tried that one. But also it's almost like the Midwest is different than the Northeast. Part of me, it's almost like that. Yeah, who knows?

Well, you're slugging the Northeast. So I'm going'll wait till the next year. Notice I didn't say I disagreed with any of the characterization of the Northeastern fans. All right, so we've had a US Ryder Cup at home again. They've behaved fine. We're now seven years removed. As the next Ryder Cup comes around,

surely this will be bygones be bygones. It'll be over, right? 2006. Oh, Tom Layman is the captain. Sorry. How is he the captain? Tom Layman is the captain. So we have to revisit Brookline, of course.

Layman is this from an AP story that Doug Ferguson wrote. Layman knows how long he was on the green during the infamous 17 celebration, because he watched it with a timer in his hand. He'd been given shit so much about that he he sat and watched it all over. layman said they ought to call it a movie or ought to be a movie. Call it 47 seconds to eternity. That's from the time the ball went to the hole when Justin made the pot until the time the green was clear. 42 seconds. I wanted

to see how long it took. The statue of limitations has run out. It is time to move on. 42 or 47. You said both there. Wait, let's see. It's her 42. 42 is the so from the time that the putt was hit to the time the green was clear. 42 seconds, 42 seconds of infamy. Jose Maria Olofavo is has a chance to make this Ryder Cup team again. And he's asked in the lead up to Ryder Cup fans have long memories and they remember obviously what happened at Brookline a few years ago. Do you think someone like Tom

Layman may pay for that this week? Do you think some of the Irish fans will let him have it? This is at the K Club of course. No chance. Only Jose says I haven't played the last two times in the Ryder Cup, but I know the atmosphere will be excellent. I think that's how this tournament should be played. I think like events like the one at Kiowa, that type of approach to the event I think was completely wrong. I think that this has been changed. Even though I haven't played the last two times,

we're talking to the boys that have played. They told me the atmosphere is the right one. Now we go out, we play golf, we try to beat our opponents. If we do so, okay. If not, you know, we shake hands and we go forward. The winner always has to be the game, the game itself. We have to keep that in perspective. The European media does not want to go along with this. They still want to blame Tom Lehman for this. Tiger Woods has sort of asked like, why would, why are people picking on Tom layman so much? Tiger says, Oh, I have no idea. It's not like he was the only one as we see in the picture. Tiger jumped into the air like six feet in the air. He didn't. He was like the first person on the green.

Nobody dragged Tiger for it. Layman in his study of the 42 seconds, even like calculated like who was out there first. First out of the pack was Bruce Edwards, a sort of late famous caddy and another caddy Bob Rifke who was working for Leonard was sort of running towards him. Then Tiger with his 40 inch spread Eagle leap before sprinting towards Leonard. Then it was followed by Davis Love the third and then layman. I know I was the fifth layman said, and I know I never set foot on the green, not that it matters. So studying this, like the Zabruder film. Yes.

Never crossed the threshold of the greed. Our dear friend, Lawrence Donigan, writing in the Guardian that year says, uh, opinion about Tom Layman is divided in Europe. Some people view the captain of the 2006 United States rider Cup team as a hypocritical Christian American who ditched his religious principles when he stormed onto the 17th green at Brooklyn Country Club, just as fan your Jose Emilio Oafaba was getting ready to putt and putt that would have kept. Did layman yell hail Satan or something when he sprinted down there like I don't understand

the religious. I'm no longer a man of God in this moment. they're like, I don't understand the religion. So that's the one opinion that he's a hippocampus Christian. Others see him as a boarish oath who no longer deserves any respect after marching across the line of Olatheo's putt. Yeah, layman says, well, it's a frustrating issue. Everybody knows and realizes that if we had just stayed put, it would have been better, but we didn't.

He pauses, and this is in Ferguson's story, finding the diplomatic words. It all happened seven years ago. What more do people want me to do or say? If you actually look at the tape, I did not lead the charge across the green, but what are you going to do? Once the story is out there, it's not going to do much about it. The issue is so far cooked that you're not going to change people's perspectives. He tells the Irish Times, uh, Torrey Pines that year, I know it's going

to come up and it should be a dead issue. It really should be, you know, I never even stepped foot on the green. I never even stepped foot on the green. I didn't lead the charge. It's all the headline in the telegraph. After that is layman unfit for captain honor. I don't know exactly like what, why layman became like number one bad guy or what it was, but he clearly like, he was just like, no matter how many times, he apologizes Sam torrance he apologizes like over and over he sat and watched the thing like a separator film it did not did not matter it just he was the worst person about this week in golf week that said that what happened at Brookline in 1999 had so stained the reputation of the club that it led the PGA of America to pick Medina as the site of the 2006 PGA Championship instead of Brookline. So Brookline was originally going to host the PGA Championship 2006, but it was such a disgrace what had happened that

it was permanently stained the reputation of the club. We're moving on to 2007 now. Obviously Europeans win at the K Club as they always do with things in Europe. Not much talk in 2007 of even in the European media of what happened. They were now eight years removed from it. But Wimbledon gets rained out this year and it gives the independent an excuse to write a listicle about famous interruptions in which they described the Brooklyn the Brookline incident as the American team and their wives

celebrated like revolutionaries after a coup managing not to fire machine guns in the air but only just I was really wanting after I found that I was very tempted to try to ask AI to like give me a picture of Tom layman, like in revolutionary garb, like firing machine guns in the air. Hopefully if someone's listening and has a better grasp of AI than me, please put that together. I will share it. Why I think we can do that. I might work on that while you while you keep going. All right. So it's 2008 and guess who's made the rider cup team for the first time in two, three cycles, Justin Leonard. This of course will another excuse to bring back all the things are our guy, James Corrigan. Love you. James

is writing in the independent that Justin is the still the principal villain and shares some regrets about how the 1990 Ryder Cup went down is inevitable that Leonard would be asked to atone for his sins after a nine year absence. Come on Justin tell us how ashamed you were of triggering what Sam Torrance called the most disgusting thing I've ever seen on a golf course. Tell us how you never kicked up your heels across those sacred putting surface and jumped all over your teammates as poor Jose Maria Othawa was sizing up his own 25 footer. If there was ever a chance for an older, wiser man to look back and tut-tut that exuberant youth, then this was it. This was was Leonard's Morgan Freeman moment.

I assume this is a reference to Shawshank in here. And I hand up, I think this misunderstands the ending of a Shawshank or Morgan Freeman only gets to go free when he realizes that the whole system was bullshit. Like he isn't apologizing for what he did. He's just like, fuck you. Oh, James, I think you might need to rewatch Shawshank and sort of, uh, you know, think of, so Leonard says in response to the sort of questions about, do you have regrets? Of course, eight, what is this?

We're 2008 or nine years now after this, I would do it differently now for sure. Leonard says, but I think what you have to keep in mind is how much emotion we had that day. We had so much momentum going on and ultimately that spilled over. I know for myself and for anyone on that team, it didn't take away from our victory. Corriggan writes, like most Americans, he refuses to, he refuses to apologize for the blackest moment in the history of the sports hour into this podcast, but nothing but apologies and does not subscribe

to the theory that the matches atmosphere is over the top. Again, I love you, John, but let's, can we just pause here again and say like, just as the blackest moment, James, I love you James, but can we just pause here for a sec and say like the blackest moment in the history of the sport? I mean, like we played a fricking PJ championship at Shoal Creek in Alabama where Hal Thompson, like the owner was basically saying like the country club is our home. We pick and choose who we want. That's just sort of how we've done in Birmingham. We have Jews, women,

Lebanese, Italians, but not blacks. Okay. That's a quote like where they said before the fucking PGA championship, not to mention fuzzy Zeller saying, tell that boy not to serve fried chicken, not to mention Sergio Garcia saying, Hey, we'll have tiger woods over and we'll serve fried chicken every night. Like fuck this idea. This is where like I push back a little bit like the idea that this was like the

blackest mark in the history of the game in terms of etiquette. Holy shit. I could think of 20 things that are way. Nobody cheated like any like do 85 different cheating incidents in professional golf that are way worse than this. Okay. So, of course, in 2008, the Americans win, which only sort of like makes the resentment grow a little bit more. But yeah, we're, we're onto 2012. Now I guess I didn't get 2010, but we're on 2012. The independent writes a big piece about how fans at the rider cup had changed from 1985 to 1995. And Howard Clark, who played in a Ryder Cup at the Belfry says he

thinks it started to change when Craig Stadler missed a short putt to give a half point to Bernard Longer and Sandy Lyle, which he says was miscontrued. The Europeans were cheering because Europe got half a point not because of the miss. But that to Clark started a chain reaction that led to players getting wake up calls at K Kiowa from local radio stations and ultimately what happened to Brookline. So again, let's not pretend like the Europeans are totally innocent in all this. Like they're even Europeans are saying, ah, yeah, like, you know, our fans kind of misbehaved a little bit.

Neither of the captains in 2012 are asked about Brookline. I literally went back and read the transcript, which was shocking to me because Jose Maria O'Fable is the freaking captain. I would have thought that we would have had to relive this like all over again. But of course they did not. However, the Evening Standard does want to talk about it. They praise Davis Love for Davis Love the third for his tone, saying that he won something more precious than a trophy that year by choosing peace over war.

Okay. The Daily Mail had said that Hal Sutton had angrily dismissed questions about the time when Americans rushed in the green, but Love moved against it with commendable vigilance. He is protecting our sport from the kind of debasement we saw at Brookline. Thank you. So of course in 2012 the Americans jump out to a 10 to 6 lead. Yves Spien's columnist Gene Wojtahowski writes, it's over. Jose Murillo Olifabo can click off his walkie talkie.

It's time for the Europeans to fire up their private jet and return to Florida. The task that Europe is facing is as close to insurmountable as trying to climb Everest wearing a t-shirt cargo shorts and flip-flops The Daily Telegraph actually writes that the crowds are kind of lame Basically says like all the talk this week of snide asides and dirty tricks has been limp They're basically saying like where is this rowdy rabble? Not much evidence. It turns out there was bloodshed, but only it was by an unfortunate spectator who was conked in the head by a wayward tee shot. There are missiles flying, but they were only acorns tumbling from the

many oak trees. Where were the expletives? Where were the insults? Where was this vindictive cheering of mis-European shuts? Putts? In short, where was the beef? So it feels like we can't have it like either way. Like the crowds are shitty or terrible people when the crowds are polite. It's like, hey, what the fuck? They just wanted their content, man. They wanted this to happen. They wanted to keep the story going. So when honestly, like there isn't a lot of gloating, there

isn't a lot of revenge talk that I could find. I really expected it to be like a lot of like Jose Maria gets his revenge when the Europeans storm back and win, you know, the sort of, you know, famous guy comes down to the wire. Martin Kimer makes that putt that sort of closes out the Ryder Cup. The matches are still kind of going on. There's some minor controversy about whether Tiger should have conceded his putt to Maldonari or that match or played for a tie. But ultimately like it kind of fizzles. Only the New York Post says congratulations to European captain Jose Murillo, a fable for getting his revenge for what happened at Brookline 13 years ago. Just to kind of remind you, you know,

we're moving on now the following year, like it's not a Ryder Cup year, but found a wonderful piece in the Sunday Times where Hugh McElvaney, he is recapping like his memories of the Ryder Cup that year. And he sort of says, again, we're 13 years away. He says, when Leonard's ball fell into the hole, Olifaba was faced with a shorter putt that might have decided whether the cup crossed the Atlantic or stayed in the U.S. By invading the greens like a raucous troop of drunken dancers, the Americans were guilty of much more than a breach of professional etiquette. They treated Olathebo as if he did not exist. That he was a double winner of the Masters, a great golfer

struggling with his game after the loss of four holes in succession and now trying to compose himself in the tennis to predicaments scarcely matters. Whatever the identity of the victim, such callous disrespect would have been unforgivable. It made the stomach churn. If it is prissy to want golf to hold a small beleaguered enclave of decent values in a sporting world, which increasingly gives the impression that only suckers play fair, then I am happy to be labeled a prissy. 13 years after this happened. Yes, the Ryder Cup is sick, unless it can cure itself from within,

and quickly, euthanasia may be the best solution. Jesus. Yeah, so again, the things are slowly kind of dying down. We don't talk quite about his Brookline. But of course, when Danny Willett and his brother talk so much shit about Americans, it becomes an excuse to sort of re-litigate it again. Well, at least we didn't do Brookline. Irish Independent runs a sort of thing, a big piece, four times. The US fans have courted controversy. This is the first reference I've I've ever seen to this that in 2012, they make they sort of make wild claims that Justin Rose was

taunted over the death of his father during 2012 and that fans you'll like this. I were chanting fuck you Seve at Medina and that Paul Aizinger stood on a bar and encouraged Kentucky fans to boo Europeans again, don't know where this came from. Don't know why it's coming up in 2016. But of course, this was sort of thought of as, you know, we just had went back with literally in 2012. We're like, well, then it was saying like, where's the beef, man?

These things are fine. I was there in 2012. I do not remember anybody yelling, fuck you, Seve. I don't know if a lot of fans know much about Seve, the suburbs of Chicago. So again, lesser and lesser, but every now and then, like some Irish English Scottish publication has an excuse for someone to sort of remember their memories of 1999. In 2020, again 21 years after Brookline has happened. John Craven writes writing for the publication the Irish golfer is recounting his memories of what happened at Brookline watching it on TV as a nine year old. Okay, so he says, the main protagonist Leonard threw his arms in the air

went running around the green, whooping and hollering as a stampede of supporters followed in the circus teammates, caddies, wives, girlfriends, and photographers flooded the putting surface like the US had just won the War of Independence, and a symphony of screams from frenzied fans delirious beyond the ropes morphed into one muffled sound as we sat at home in silence. The image shifted to a frustrated Olazabel, waiting for the coast to clear as he assessed his birdie putt.

His line since massacred, massacred by the heavy heeled Americans void any semblance of etiquette or sportsmanship. This is remember this is a nine year old when I read this in this next quote, Sally. Bunch of fucking horrible bastards. He still has to putt dad. he still has a fucking putt for a half. What a shower of cunts. This is the disgrace, a fucking disgrace. My parents jaw dropped on the floor as I revealed my extended vocabulary. My brother Billy, nine years my senior, overcame with regret having let me watch the first season of The Sopranos, which had come out earlier that year. Alas, by the time I was castigated on the melee on screen quieted, the Spaniard

missed his birdie putt for a half and the US team captured an unsavory victory. I thought I would never watch golf again, not just because I was banned by mom and dad, because I flung the TV out the window mercifully over time I matured. Sure, sure. Yeah, nine year old dropping the C word and flung in the TV at the window. Again, I wanna give us like a special shout out to James Corrigan and John Huggins to literally two of our favorite journalists. We could not do a lot of these research things

without some of the journalism you guys have done. So, I say this in just in with true love and respect like you guys remain like these standard torchbearers for this Brookline stuff over and over again. Corgan's done a lot of really great journalism, but he does mention Brookline a lot over and over in in 2024. He writes a piece saying if Brookline was bad, then Bethpage will be worse. The US fans and yes, it is 99% their fault. Turn up determined to be a part of the show and cast their multimillionaires continue to underperform so they become more pronounced in their patriotism. John Huggins, again, like literally every year, at

least he will have one mention of Brookline in his Twitter feed. I've just searched it. It goes back so far. In 2012, Huggins says, I'm getting a good laugh at a certain US blogger lecturing the Europeans on sportsmanship. Hashtag Brookline. Later in 2012, clearly not all lessons from Brookline have been learned fully. Earlier today, I walked past a guy selling breakfast beers hashtag crowd trouble. So again though in 2012 later, John Huggins writes an article basically

saying that the Ryder Cup is no longer as spicy as it once was that you know on the level of animosity between the two teams was it reached unacceptable and vitriolic and near violent proportions. Violence? Again, I don't have any problem admitting that what the US did was shitty and unsporting, but the exaggerations of that we were fucking about to fire guns in the air. I know it's metaphorical. I know it's meant to be sort of in jest, but near violent proportions. We were just just gonna start beating the shit out of like people and supposed to like, hey, like clearing the green and letting

Jose Maria Olafable putt. In 2018, Huggins tweeted, watching Leonard's famous putt at Brookline, oh, how wonderful that would have been if he had told Olafable to pick up his ball in the wake of all that went on. Huge opportunity to do the right thing missed. 2020 is a lasting memory of the day at Brookline in 99 is the disgusting treatment met it out to

Colin Montgomery by the many drunken boars in the crowd never heard or seen anything like it before and only at Hazel teen in 2016 since. 2022. Just saw the 1999 Rider Cup stampede at Brookline. Still can't fathom why JMO's putt was not conceded. Desperate stuff. 2024. I am enjoying the predictable outrage from certain quarters following my mention of Brookline and its stampede in 99. Strangely, those moved seem to have an average of about 12 followers. You, you skipped my favorite one for the president's cup. This, this go around with this haven't

seen this so-called incident at the president's cup, but it is hard not to laugh out loud when American players claim to be offended by a breach of etiquette hashtag Brookline. Hashtag Brookline, baby. Solly, I'm going to close with this. This coming year at Bethpage, the captain of the American team, of course, will be Keegan Bradley, you know, a man close to my heart. Keegan was on the scene in 1999. He was watching that putt from the 17th green. He says in the Ryder Cup press conference this year, I was on my dad's shoulders when Justin made that putt.

We were on the 18th green, but I could see through the trees and I remember seeing all the red shirts running by. When the tournament was over, my dad told me to run onto the 17th green with everybody and just meet them back in the same spot. I took off running and I was running around the green and that's when I fell in love with the Ryder Cup that week. The passion I saw had never been seen before in golf. And that was something

that I promised myself I was going to work towards. Will he apologize for that? Will he apologize? You just don't do that as a 13 year old. You just don't do that. Hashtag Brookline. It always comes back to Brooklyn. I am back to again remind you how incredible the stack system has been for my golf game. I have been using this program since early July when I was just felt like my swing was actually getting slower. I was actually felt like I was losing

some fundamentals because of my lack of speed through the zone. I started the program. I'm amazed at how easy it is. It is so simple. You go into your backyard, you warm up for 15 minutes, you take maybe 20-22 minutes to complete the training session. It tells you exactly what to do. Step by step, swing the 235 gram weight eight times as hard as you can right now. Now, swing the 75 gram, taking a step. You don't have to make any decisions. It is a path laid out to a personal trainer for you to gain speed on the golf course. It's not you don't have to make any decisions. It is a path laid out to a personal trainer for you to gain speed on the golf course. It's not going to make you more reckless. At least I don't think it'll make you more reckless on

the golf course. A lot of us think, you know, the harder I swing, the more offline it goes. This, the whole point of this is to gain maximum speed, just like you're to raise your maximum speed that you can swing a golf club so that you can cruise at your 80th, 90th percentile speed and hit it straighter and make golf easier. It's an incredible system. Go to episode 913 with Dr. Sasha McKenzie if you want some more details how the program works and what the experience has been like for me. But I've spent four months with it. I spent a lot of time with to make sure that I

could give it. I was going to give it this heart of an endorsement that I was actually experiencing the gains and I've seen 10 miles an hour of club head speed at my maximum from what I started the program. It's incredible. The stack system.com code no laying up gets you 10% off your order. It's got a ton of great learning materials in there. It's got a putting thing. I can't even fit all the benefits into a simple ad read. Episode 913 has a lot more details and go to the stack system.com code no laying up to add speed to your golf swing. Back to the pod. I'm sure I missed a ton of good shit that is not archived online or that was said on, I searched YouTube, I searched yournewspapers.com. And if you have other fun mentions that you know of over the years of this, Fusil to let it go, please share them.

I tried, ChadGBT refused to put a violent photo together of, of Tom layman, but if anybody else could use AI to do the machine gun, please send it our way. Revolutionary firing machine guns in the air. All right. Are you ready for me? I don't think mud's going to be nearly as funny as what we just encountered, but there's a, again, like I mentioned off the top, there's been this kind of simmering of a feud between Tom Watson and Gary player fan golf fans that are much older than us. I may remember it more fondly from when it actually happened or kind of got to experience these guys careers. I'm 38 years old. I'm most certainly,

I was not alive when this incident first occurred, Kev, I believe you would have just been five years old, I think when this occurred in 1983, if I remember that right. Yep. Or got a lot of sources on this one. But I do want to credit Shane Ryan. He wrote about the story and did a podcast about it about a year ago. I did not know this podcast existed when I decided to do Tom Watson versus Gary Player. I was about halfway through my research and I realized I was like, dang it, this already exists.

But I listened to that, it was great and it's been a great source. So this is the year 1983 is November 24th and 25th is when we are going to Desert Highlands in Scottsdale for the first iteration of the skins game. It is of course a Nicholas design with a real estate development going on. NBC is broadcasting it. Vin Scully is announcing players are my Mike 1983 players on the golf course

are miked up and we just can't do that. And in the 2020s. It's too too difficult with technology but against first iteration of the event and it is big money. OK, like on the 12th hole, Arnold Palmer rolls in a putt to win $100,000, which is equivalent to $316,000 today. What do you think the most money Arnold Palmer's ever made in a single tournament in his entire career was? Oh my god.

I would have guessed like $25,000. It's $55,000. It was almost double what he'd ever made in the tournament for making a putt in this skins game, right? So I remember like this era that the skins game was kind of like how they made their money. Yes. Right. Like it was almost like, Hey, like this is how we supplement our income. Like we got to grind throughout the year and do our best. And that's that's just kind of for history. But skins game is where like the, you know, that's why people wanted to play in it. Cause you get really get paid. I can't remember if it was this year or 1984 where Gary player said out loud, like, can you, can you believe this in all the years that we've played in this? This is the best day we've ever had, or all the years we've played golf is the best, biggest day we've ever had. So we get to the 17th hole and Gary Player makes a short birdie putt to win $170,000. There was only one season in Player's career where he won that much

money. So after each hole that's won, an announcer runs out in the green and interviews him all that. So here's Gary Player after making a birdie on the 17th hole. Here it is, Gary Flair, birdie 17, has won 150,000 on the hole. Oh, I was so excited about that. That'll buy a lot of alfalfa for those horses. Did you put a little sweat down on your palms there, Gary? I did, I'm choking more than when I won the US Open. Take it on, Gary.

A lot of alfalfa for those horses. I don't know why, I had 170,000 on that putt. That's what he ended up actually winning. But so we get the, you know, the final standings from the day, Tom Watson won the very first hole of the day. He won $10,000, which is getting a lot of money definitely at that time. And for golf, they run out on the green. They're so excited for him. He just won $10,000. He's like, yeah, 600 for my caddy. And everybody's smiling and running off the green. What we did not know is that Tom Watson would not win any more money on that day. So

the final standings for the day again, player won that $170,000. Palmer won 140,000 throughout the day. Nicholas wins the 18th hole. I think that was for 30k, which got him to 40k for the day and Tom Watson ends the day with $10,000 one. So maybe you know, you know, first iteration, whatever. Yeah. But so they're all done. Everybody had a great time, right? It's on television. Everybody's you know, great, great iteration of this event. But not so fast. If you go back and watch Tom Watson is just

being like, dead fucking silent the last couple of holes, right? Nicholas is talking to him coming up the 18th fairway like, yeah, Tommy didn't play very good today, did we? And Tom like doesn't even give him like a courtesy. Oh, Jack, I don't want to talk today. He didn't give him a didn't give him a mention at all. He does a post round interview, but it's like pretty, pretty short and Kurt with the post round interview. And after play is wrapped on a little road near the 18th green, there's a

conversation going down between Gary Player, Tom Watson, Jack Nicholas and Joe die, who is a rules official for the day, and a former commissioner of the PGA tour. So on the 16th hole, again, we got a lot of carryover. So this the 16th hole ends up being tied goes to the 17th and Gary Player wins the 150k or whatever that was on 17. But on the 16th hole ends up being tied, goes to the 17th, and Gary Player wins the 150K or whatever that was on 17. But on the 16th, Watson had hit a putt up to maybe six inches or so, or a chip up there very close,

and he's in for par. Palmer's out of the hole, and Nicholas had some distance for par. And Gary Player is playing from off the green in the rough, some 65 feet away. So what is happening is in this conversation in the in on this road or in this parking lot or whatever it is, Dave Anderson of the New York Times overhears a conversation and Anderson wrote this in the New York Times

said from 30 feet away, Tom Watson could be heard saying, I'm accusing you, Gary, you can't do that. I'm tired of this. I wasn't watching you, but I saw it. And Gary Player could be heard defending himself saying at one point, I was within the rules. Joe Dye gets a win that Anderson is listening to this or has overheard this, ends up asking him not to write the story on this, that it said it was a private conversation, but he published that paragraph anyway, and it ends up becoming the huge thing from this skins game. So the incident is in regards to, if I can,

it's written, it's kind of scattered. I'm not even gonna read quotes from it because a lot of people I don't think understood the rule or kind of well documented what the actual incident was, but there is the concept of a leaf and whether or not it is a leaf of a weed that is planted or if it's a loose impediment. And Gary Player, there's a weed or a leaf behind the ball that is not a loose impediment,

that it is rooted in something. So it's either a leaf off a weed that's directly between the clubface and the ball or what it would have been. And Gary Player moves it, removes it, pats it down, gets it out of the way. Essentially what Tom Watson is saying, and again, it becomes his word against Gary's, is that he was improving the line of play of his swing to get to the ball, right? The extreme version of this is Patrick Reed sweeping away the sand behind the ball that everybody saw, but this was like a movement of this leaf or whatever in the argument

whether or not this thing was rooted, okay? So getting into, but there's some followups that come from this, again, this is just this little paragraph that goes in there and that's kind of all that we have going on there. And it's kind of like, all right, is this a big deal? Is this, is he just talking about, is it just sour grapes, whatever it is.

The headline, just a couple of days later in the Washington Post, Gary Player cheated. So in a television interview, or I'm sorry, in a telephone interview with the Washington Post, Watson doubled down. He said, what I saw was a violation, adding that Player had bent over and with his hand flattened out a rooted leaf directly behind his ball

before chipping on the 16th where $120,000 was on the line. Tom Watson said, I challenged Gary on it. I asked him if he was ignorant of the rule. What it comes down to is his word against mine. Again, Watson said, whether player was ignorant of the rule or trying to improve his line of play is something that lies within the heart will never know. So the question is basically like, hey, did you knowingly do this and break the rule or did you not know that this was a rule? Like, but you made a violation here. What is the deal here?

So Watson said, I didn't get much sleep last night for thinking about it. I know this is a keg of dynamite. I know how reputations can be damaged. There are probably even people who will think this is sour grapes. Watson would say, as I saw it, he was moving a leaf of a weed right behind his ball so he could have a clear path to the ball for the club face of his club. I know the leaf was rooted because it popped back up to its original position. This is in the newspaper. He said, when I took it up with Gary and I have done the same thing in a weekend at Nassau, he said he was touching something

beside the ball and not behind it. I just love that the journalist didn't know what a weekend Nassau was. All things at Nassau. Sorry, Thomas Boswell. Watson continued, one of the elements that make golf truly distinctive is that it is a game played by the rules. I feel now

as I felt on Sunday that any breach of the rule intended or unintended must be resolved. If we overlook the rules and the game as we know it would become something much less than it is. My biggest regret though, is that a private matter became a public incident. And this seems this seems real and that they were trying to have this private conversation and like they didn't want to blow this up. They didn't want to go run to the media about it.

But now that it's out there, like Tom Watson's worried about looking like sour grapes and he just like tells the whole story of exactly what happened. And I will say as a journalist, I've walked inside the ropes, many, many, many golf rounds. I've always treated it like that's you say something like in the locker room, you say something that's clearly like away like in the locker room, you say something that's clearly like away from the field of play, like you have a right to privacy within the ropes within the arena, essentially of the thing, you don't have a right to privacy, the things that you say, that's a public forum, as a public place. If you call someone out for cheating, like

inside the field of play, and I'm a journalist and I'm allowed inside the field of play, like I have every right to report on that. And it sounds like this was a new, yeah, this was a new place. I don't know if they had facilities where they could go have a private conversation. That's kind of what I, it wasn't private. They thought it was private and they did not,

it was not private enough. I guess it was pretty animated conversation. Like Gary was, you know, saying I'm tired of it is like, dude, Gary, there's some, I'm gonna get into some of the the what has led up to this, to this point. It, it did not feel right for me to read Gary player quotes. So what I've done for the listeners sake, I have sent, uh, Kevin has no idea on the context of any of these, but

I want Kevin to read the quotes from Gary player. They're not that outrageous, but it just, for the sake of the story, Kevin needs to read the story. So player was reached at his hotel yesterday, which is the day after the event at his hotel yesterday by the Associated Press before flying to South Africa. And he said, I think there's been a misunderstanding. He was under the impression that I moved a leaf from the ball and I assured him that was not the case. Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer and I left it at that. And I'm very surprised to hear that someone wrote about it. For those with a passion for golf rules, the pertinent citation reads,

a player shall not improve his line of play, the position or live his ball or the area of his intended swing by moving, bending or breaking anything fixed or growing, or by pressing down other irregularities. So like basically what, like no matter how you interpret, like the rule is pretty specific here. Like if Tom Watson said, you did some of this, and again, we'll get into some of the stuff that Watson was somewhat famous for. Later, Player would say he was checking

to see if it was a dead leaf. Like Player's story kind of changes throughout the course of some of that. And anyway, so what I kind of was anticipating happening here was like, this was like a, you know, a big recurring thing. And I couldn't find anything about their feud from 1983. post this, or any mentions of it or you know, anything that that cited the feud until 1991. So an eight-year time period again it could be my my fail you know I'm not

very good at navigating old newspapers or whatever it is but I just I couldn't find any any evidence anywhere that like this feud continued the back and forth continued that they didn't like each other it's clearly they didn't didn't like each other but eight years later, Gary Player is going to be coming out with a book. The book is titled To Be the Best. That's important for this next part. And Gary takes Watson to task for his use of illegal clubs in his 1977 victories in the Masters and the British Open. I'm going to pause on that for just one second. Again, the book to be the best is available currently on Amazon. Kevin, how much do you think the paperback version of Gary players book costs?

Oh man, I'm a little bit, let's say $10. Okay. It's $98.75. The reviews are in and has a 3.2 rating. It's not great. Again, it's titled to be the best. And this review got me in a tickled by funny bone in a way I was not prepared for one star from Charles Klingsberg, just an autobiography, very little on golf technique. You can title your golf thing to be the best. People want to buy it knowing how to be the best. Like, I didn't want to hear stories about your horses and alfalfa and your, your fishing exploits. Come on, Gary. $98 on Amazon. Right. You get the hard cover for $7. I don't really know why the paperback is $98. It must be like a scarcity of it or something, right? Like they assume somehow it'll be,

I don't know, an antique of some kind. I love you were mentioned on our call this week, something about reading Gary Player's autobiography. And I'm like, dude, I think he's got a couple of autobiographies out there from what it sounds like. But well, if you like, if you didn't listen to our tall tales of Gary Player podcast, like I would highly encourage you to do it because I, he has an entire chapter in it defending apartheid. It's well written, but it's just like the most racist shit you could possibly imagine. Like it's, and it came out like after he had won, you know, only I think like, you know, five or six of his majors. Like it was in the middle of his career. It was very early into his thing. So he still had a lot to a

lot of golf tournaments to win. That was before he ended apartheid though, himself. That's correct. Thank you. So I'll get into into kind of the details around the grooves. But Gary Player, if you want to, if you can go ahead and read us what his quote was from the book. I often wonder how Jack felt about losing those two championships. I would have hate to have won two of the world's

major championships knowing that I had used illegally grooved clubs. So again, this is a few weeks after the open. Watson's ram irons were deemed not in conformity with USGA specifications regarding the grooves. So after, like, I'll get into some of the details of that. So Jack Nichols said, I don't think Watson knew the clubs are illegal. If he had he wouldn't have played with him. I don't think that has anything to do with me losing two tournaments. I've kidded Tom about it at times. It's important to note here the grooves were were only deemed

illegal in the ruling the month after. So like it wasn't like they that you know there's this groove rule and Watson was violating it during that. They ruled a month later like, hey, these grooves are illegal. And they were not, and I think it was more of a manufacturer error of some kind because it was not,

Watson was not the only one affected there. So this is from Bill Varner from the Gannett News Service. He said, there was no USGA decision or apparently knowledge of the situation until August when George burns his clubs were found to have illegal grooves at the greater Hartford open and he withdrew the USGA examined the situation further prior to the PGA tournament and ruled clubs used by Watson, Ray Floyd, and Gary player among others were not allowed. Why Gary Player is using,

was using the irons that were deemed illegal at, and then eight years later, no, 14 years later is accusing Tom Watson that his championships are tainted because he used clubs with illegal groups. So one of my favorite things about Gary Player Sully is that he has a very selective memory about things that occur. So like, very much like accused people of doing something that he totally did and just forgot about in the past. That is a reoccurring theme throughout Gary's life. So if you will, Gary continues with another quote here.

Suggestions that no matter how innocently the error occurred Tom ought to reconsider his position I am pleased that is something I do not have to face up in my golfing career So he played with them, but he just that didn't happen to win any majors through with those illegal clubs Player also said that he considers Watson dower with a disregard for the courtesies that normally exist between professionals He cited Watson's half-hearted congratulations to Seve after he won the 84 British, and he would continue. I was just putting the record straight. I admire many of the things he does. He is a highly intelligent man, a credit to golf.

I don't dislike him at all, although I don't think we will shake hands. I find him quite aloof. So this is at the 91 open at Birkdale. This is eight years later. Again, it's just like a book promotion like this. From what I could tell, their beef had died down. I'm sure they didn't like each other, but it was not played out in public until he decides to write about this in his book.

Watson would say, it upset me and I don't want to play being upset this week. This is not the time or place to go into a kitty Kelly type of atmosphere. I don't care for that at all at this stage of my life. The tabloids would, uh, to see us debate it, but I don't care to do it. This is the open championship and it would degrade it to get into a debate with the little man. It's not like Tom Watson is like a towering man, but like just a little dig in at five foot eight Gary Blair is pretty sick. Again, that kind of seems like the end of it a little bit.

I want to, I'm going to work backwards a little bit, but just a little, some, some skins game kind of aftermath on this. Cause I kind of went down a little skins game, a wormhole after this. So desert Highlands where they ended up. Long story short, it was the original idea that Adam Schupack had a great article in 2019 about a guy named Steve Sesnik who came up with the idea for wanted to bring it to the Palm Coast, which is is just a bit south of us here in Jacksonville,

but idea end up kind of getting stolen. Anyways, that's a kind of a separate probably topic that we cover someday. But Desert Highlands, the Nicholas course is credited with igniting the golf course construction boom in Scottsdale. And it ended up leaving the skins game left Desert Highlands after three years once they finally sold all the homes in the development. The first skins game lost a million dollars in 1983, which is quite a lot of

money. But trivia question, how many how many viewers you think the Sunday skins game got in 1983? How many, how many viewers you think the Sunday skins game got in 1983? God, I think that probably a lot, right? Uh, six, seven million, over eight million, which was more than the masters. The PGA tour would take over the selection of players for the skins game. Starting in 1985, they announced the leading money winner from a series of skins games to be played in connection with weekly tour events would qualify. Uh, Watson said, that's awkward. It won't work. Jack said, we won't have one at my tournament. Arnie said, I

won't have one at mine either. Uh, Jack said, well, I guess we settled that. The Memorial would later add a skins game starting in the 2000s that I had said multiple times, but basically the skins game ultimately, you know, slowly dies down when guys like KJ Choi and whatnot were qualified for it instead of like the four legends of the game that originally had set out for but interesting that like the legends was kind of like, no, this is how we get paid and the PJ tour was like, no, no, we want in some of that and then

like killed it killed the golden goose by, you know, that means basically just made for TV made up. It's like same shit. You get back in the those errors. It's the same shit. We're doing now. I mean, this showdown is, you know, it's basically just made for TV made up. It's like same shit. You get back in the those errors. It's the same shit we're doing now. I mean, this showdown is, you know, doing it outside the bounds of the PGA Tour. And it's a mess. But so a little bit of background on some of the Gary

player reputation stuff. Andy Martinez was a longtime caddy for Johnny Miller and maybe more famously was a caddy for Zach Blair. He said he was fuming. This from the San Francisco Examiner was fuming, this from the San Francisco Examiner, was fuming when he read this story about Watson and Player. He told the story of the 1980 Sea Pines heritage at Hilton Head. Miller predicted that day that Player would pull something during the round and he said, Johnny told me he was going to cheat and how he was going to

do it. Player hit a ball into the right rough. Johnny said he would take a forewood out, smash down the grass, then hit a five iron. That's exactly what he did. I saw him do it. God is my witness. He then continued to say another caddy saw him take a drop from casual water when there wasn't casual water and Memphis and tells the story from lithium in 1974 when allegedly players caddy dropped a ball in the rough on the 71st hole and spectators couldn't find it. And a member found the ball the next day and is kept in a safe somewhere is allegedly the story of it. There's like 50 people looking for this ball and it

happens to be Gary players caddy that finds the ball and and then there is video of him playing behind the green on the 18th hole at Latham and scraping dust and dirt away from behind his ball as he gets ready to play a left-handed shot. Which he had like a three shot lead at that point too. Like it's just such a stupid thing to do. This stuff followed him around everywhere. So there was kind of that's when when Tom Watson he says I'm tired of it like this was the kind of stuff that like people were waiting for to pop up and Tom Watson was like Gary I'm tired of it. Oh he's bitter. It's 120,000 150,150,000 on the line. Like I don't really blame him.

Like the guys ended up calling out this stuff, end up having to be the bad guys and seen as the bad guys in these scenarios, which isn't like, it was not fair when the players put the other players in these kinds of situations. Hey Siri, give me all the times that Gary player cheated. Hey Siri, give me a, give me Gary player cheated. Hey Siri, give me a chat. 14-1B please.

I don't know the rules. Chat GPT, please give me a picture of Gary player ripping leaves from behind his ball. With a machine gun. So that's it. That's what I got. Mine's not as lengthy as yours but that is the history of the feud.

But I would recommend the Shane's podcast as well does a great story. Don't know. Let's try not to steal too much from that one, but, um, uh, he does a great job with that. So that is the first iteration of golf feuds. I have a feeling where this is going to be a series we're going to do throughout the course of the year, like our little annual deep dives, cause there's a lot more to cover and a credit to, credit to Phil, our editor who it was his idea to do the European media versus Brookline is truly one of the greatest ideas I'd ever heard on that one. I'm not sure our brain would have got there, but it was fantastic. I apologize in advance for my in retrospect for my British accents and I'll work on an

Irish accent please so that we can, you know, in future iterations. Yeah, we want to be we're very inclusive of who we're making fun of here. All right. And teasing. We want everyone to feel included in that. So please still invite me to your fancy English clubs to cover the Open Chamber even though I'm an ugly American. You upon arrival you must apologize for Brooklyn. That's I will. I will. I will walk through the airport with an apology sign. Brooklyn. That's going to be. I will walk through the airport with an apology sign. That would be a good bit. Just going up to random people at the

airport and be like, Hey, I'm from America. I'm really sorry about Brooklyn. Hashtag Brooklyn. All right, that's gonna do it. Thanks for opportunity. We'll see you next time. Cheers. Cheers. For Fandel must be 21 older and president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas TAR Casino, or 18 and older and present in DC, gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Or visit mdgamblinghelp.org.

In Maryland, hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline.ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support. In Massachusetts, or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. Thanks for tuning in.