Oh What A Time... - #53 Spies (Part 1)

Episode Date: June 23, 2024

Cut a couple of holes in your newspaper and have a butchers at this week’s episode which is: Spies. We’ll be checking out how sophisticated spies were in Britain during the 1600s, we’ll be peeping on the secret police in Ancient Rome and we’ll be trying to spy on the spies of the BBC. And we’ve got more listener blunders this week to make Tom feel better. Have you done something as silly as accidentally packing a duffel coat thinking it was a sleeping bag? If yes, you can email us at: [e-mail] If you're impatient and want both parts in one lovely go next time plus a whole lot more(!), why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER? In exchange for your £4.99 per month to support the show, you'll get: - two bonus episodes every month! - ad-free listening - episodes a week ahead of everyone else - And first dibs on any live show tickets Subscriptions are available via AnotherSlice, Apple and Spotify. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.com You can also follow us on:  X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepod And Instagram at @ohwhatatimepod Aaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). Chris, Elis and Tom x Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's a 48-hour treatment and it's Canada's number one selling remedy for cystitis symptoms. Give your body the relief it deserves. Get Cystoplus at your pharmacy. No prescription required. This product may not be right for you. Always read and follow the label. Sisto Plus and Logo are registered trademarks owned by Norwell Consumer Health Care Inc. Hello and welcome to Oh What a Time, the history podcast that tries to decide, actually when you look back at the past and everyone was backstabbing each other, I'd have really loved it and I really would have come into my own, murdering my brother so that I could

be king, I actually would have loved to have done it. I'm Ellis James. I'm Chris Scall. And I'm Tom Crane and each week on this show we'll be looking at a brand new historical subject and today, this is a really exciting one, today we're going to be discussing spies. Yes. British spies in the 1600s, spies at the BBC and spies in ancient Rome. Now I was thinking about this subject last night and I thought when I was a kid I would have been on at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at at a the the the the the the the the the the to........ A to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. A. S. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A... And. A. A.. And. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. to. t. t. to. to. to. And. And. thinking about this subject last night, and I thought when I was a kid, I would have been on at least one stakeout by now. Yes. I can't believe I've not been on a stake out in my life.

So much bond on tele when I was a kid. the kid made you think that kind of been a spy, yeah, there's loads of him about, there the today. I remember I've been my car, I'm a car, I'm a car, I'm to my car. I took my car to a mechanic in Cardiff. I said, how are we going to talking about this? He was a lovely bloke and I had a shit car, so I was there all the time. And I remember him saying, yeah, but I'm very good at disappearing like. I said, yeah, you mean, yeah, I read a load of spy novels when I what I do now like but I I I know I could be a spy I was like yeah

he was like yeah I'll do it like tomorrow you walk past me won't you won't see me in the shop yeah I was like wow and I'll say is that because you'll be working underneath the car and he'll go yes it's because I'm working in the garage, no way. I'll just sort of blend into, I'll just blend into a Honda Civic or something. It'll be amazing. Take a guess, how do you think he is hiding in that garage? Let's say he's given, he's given 10 seconds. What is, I know you don't know what he's got or what he's read in these books, but what do you think he's going for? He just used to, is it one of those big tractor thract thract, thract, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is to, is to, is he, how, is to, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, how, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is to, is, is, is to, is to, is, is to, is to, is to, is to, is to, is to, how, how, how, th, how, how, th.. th. How, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th very famous Simpsons meme, where Homer sort of disappears into the hedge? Yeah. He did that but into some brickwork. And that's true, I said he did that. As I was giving in the keys to my, to my, Fox-on-Ova

he disappeared into the brickwork and I went, I've got a- hand it to you, very impressive. Is this Dweeby? And when it comes to James Bond stuff as a child, I was always really into the tech but not into the violence. So I liked the pens that shot stuff. The gadgets. That's what I mean. That's what I mean. That's what I mean. the TV tel. th. th. th. the. th. the. th. the. th. the. th. th. th. the. th. th. to. to. to the. to to to to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. James. James. James. James. James. James. James. James. James. James. James. James. James. James. James. James. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. th. th. th. the. the. That said, I did used to do a game in the house on my own, and I didn't have a TV till I was 13 or 14, and she explains the sort of stuff I had to do to pad out my life. Did you use to do this? I would try and creep up on my parents by rolling my feet, I got a technique for out. Yeah, exactly like this. So, daintily, I think daintily is the right way of putting it, but it's complete rolls, the foot never comes off the floor. Right, you're working for Specter. You hear a very, very, very small, slight noise. You turn round, it's Tom Crane playing

Bond he's got his shoes off he reached me again and he think why is he's a bit of foot I imagine Tom's interview with him my six what makes you think you'd be a good spy and then he starts taking his shoes yeah well let me tell you this Chris two little points here first of all they wouldn't even know I'd entered the interview Yeah yeah yeah they wouldn't even know I'd entered the interview the interview the interview the the the the the the the the the he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he's he's he's he's he's got he's got he's got he's got he's he's he he he's got he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he he's he he's he's he's he's he's he's he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the the the the th the the the the the the the the the then he starts taking his shoes. Yeah. Well, let me tell you this, Chris. Two little points here. First of all, they wouldn't even know I'd entered the interview. Yeah. They turn around and I go, I've been here for ten minutes. See? You know, there's, there's a whole scene where he's getting the laser sort of like going up his the thaugh, like can I put my shoes and socks back on before I get my balls zapped by a lace. It's a sort of dignity thing really. This podcast has a real world impact on my daughter. I was talking to her about Toland Man the other day, who he covered in an earlier episode. And I said they actually, they've studied his gut,

they can tell what he had for his final meal. He ate porridge and flax seeds and a little bit of fish as well, I think. And she said, yeah, you do. And now, in the morning, when I say, what do you want for your breakfast? She goes, get me a tolland did she really get me a tolland dad I'll go full tolland yeah that's so great tallon I love that I could see that on a chalkboard and a hipster cafe the tolland the tolland break his he was he was away filming as she came

back this morning and I was about to get in the shower and he said, oh let me do the breakfast. I'll do the breakfast while you're in the shower and I said, yeah well Betil won a tolland. And I had to explain what that was. If that's porridge and a little bit of flax seeds. We refer to that as a tolland now. It's the last meal as found in the guts the guts the guts thuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's the last meal as found in the guts of a man who was buried in Peter. Yeah, the part of a body. I hope that makes things clear. Yeah, I hope that helps. So, shall we find out what our listeners have been sending us? Should we do that?

Should we dive into a bit of correspondence? Let's do that before we get into the nitty-gritty of the history. As always, thi thii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I's thi, I'm that's that's that's that, I'll that, I'll that, I'll that, I that, I that, I that, I that, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I'm thin, thin, thin, thin, thi. thi. thin, thi. thi. thin. that's that's that's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th history. As always, great stuff from you guys. Any thoughts you want to send our way, we always love to receive them. This one is from Andy Bauman, title Relatable Blunders. This really made me laugh this. Hela Geller Glanders, this really thelunders, a sequel episode, and Tom's story of taking a windbreak, the tent tent to Glastonbury was far too relatable to me. So so to me. So. So just to me. So just to me. So just just just just just just just just just to me. So. So. So. So. So, just just just just just just. So, to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to to to to to to to the the the to theaugh. So, thae. thae. thae. thau, thau, thau, thau. thau. thea, thea, theable. theable. theable. theable. theable. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. tit. took what I thought was a pop-out tent, but unfortunately it was a pop-out windbreak. And the newspapers labelled you, idiot. That's true. It was featured in the Daily Mirror under the headline, Idiot. Anyway, Andy says I'm not alone. He says a similar thing happened to me when I traveled to Galippily and Turkey for the Anzapapapapapapapapapapap an their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, too, too, to be, to be, to to the, too, to be, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to the newspapers, the newspapers, their, their, their, is is their, is their, is their, is their, is their, is their, is their, is their, is their newspapers, is their newspapers, is their, is the newspapers, is the newspapers, is their, is their, is the newspapers, is their, is their, is their know what the Anzac Day celebrations. Australia and New Zealand's the combined armed forces fighting in the several. The Anzacs is that they're a rugby team as

well the British Lions have played the Anzacs in the past. Ah, well there you go. To set the scene when attending Gallipoli for these celebrations you sleep out under the stars and near freezing temperatures in readiness for the dawn services. Okay so lo and behold behold when I arrived at designated area and our party began readying ourselves with a cold night ahead, I discovered to my horror that instead of a sleeping bag I had packed a puffer jacket. And to make things worse, I was in fact the guide and tour leader for our entire tour group and had spent the previous evening reminding the members of our party the importance of checking their gear as there was nowhere on site to get anything additional. So at least in Glastonbury I had some kind of options that turned to.

There was nowhere to get anything else additional. I then proceeded to spend the night shivering under a rug that someone was kind enough to lay over me. I just wanted to tell a story and support of Tom remind you that there are blunderers like us everywhere. Love the pod, keep up a good work, Andy. A puffer jacket. That's so funny. Because it looks kind of the same. Yes, exactly. That's what's so funny about, we are in bang in trouble here. Yeah. I'd be thinking he's killed the actual tour guide. What's going on? Who is this man that we're with?

Oh, that's really made me laugh. So, thank you for that, Andy. Thank you for sort of trying to sort sort to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to, to, to to to to to, the the to to the to the to. the to. the their. their. their. their. their. their. I their, their. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I, th. I. I. I. I. I. I, th. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I's, the. I's. I's the. I's toda. I's toda. I'm toda. toda. toda. toda. toda. toda. today. today. today. today. today. that, that there are other people as stupid as me out there. So if you want to get in contact with the show, please do and here's how. All right, you horrible look. Here's how you can stay in touch with the show. You can email us and hello at Oh, what a time dot com. And you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Oh What a Time.com and you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at O What a Time pod. Now clear off. Every day women's bodies endure a lot. No need for cystitis-related pain to add to the burden. Let Cysto Plus take care the burning and stinging sensation. It's a 48-hour treatment and it's Canada's number one selling remedy for cystitis symptoms. Give your body the relief it deserves.

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tocom slash ways to save. TD Ready for you. So before we crack into the history, if any of you want to become an oh what a time, full timer for 499 a month, you'll get two bonus episodes a month. This is a big change. You get two extra episodes a month. There's already all the old bonus episodes we've recorded, stuff like heroes, gifts, sex, drugs and rock and roll, the tests, medieval sex, US sports in the UK. So many bonus episodes already there for you to listen to.

You'll also get it all ad free. You'll get this section and the second section together in one part. You'll get first dibs on live tickets and you can do that by going on your Spotify app, your Apple app or on O'Watah Time. There's so many different ways to support the show and thank you for supporting us in whatever way you do. We really do appreciate it. So this week's episode we are going to be talking about spies. I'm going to be talking about the secret police in ancient Rome. What are you guys speaking about? I'll be talking about the files the BBC had on potential spies. That's a good one.

I'm going to tell you all about spying in the 1600s. Now my first question about this was how rudimentary is spying in the 1600s, yeah. Yeah, because a big part of spying for me is the gadgets and I just can't foresee British 1600s equivalent of Q cracking out anything that's going to be helpful. Yeah, I also think I could probably smell a spy who is hiding in my room in the 1600. The 1600s behind the curtains. I go there's definitely someone behind there. Stinking of turn it. The 1600s version of Q would be like right, this quill is also a gun, believe it or not. It's um. This quill is not only a pen, I can also tickle you in it in it. So it's got, it's a, it's also a weapon.

Well, spying in the 1600s was actually quite important because it's the time of the English Civil War, the parliamentarians versus the Royalists. I think this is the first time it's really come up the English Civil War. I wanted to ask, do either of you have a sight, do you find yourself yourself the the the War? Do you find yourself on the Parliamentarian side of the Royalists or not bothered? Oh, Royalists. Royalists? Can you imagine if we still had an absolutist monarch? Yes please.

It depends what they like. If they really sort of like giving and chilled, then you know. A chilled monarch. Yeah, legalize it. They're really into festivals. Not bothered. The parliamentarians versus the Royalist, the English Civil War dictated the necessity for spies really. And here's one spy, his name is John Thurlow.

He's not a household name. He was, however, born in the greatest place on earth, Essex in 1616. He died in London in 1668. But he died after a career in legal practice, he served in Parliament as an MP for Cambridge University and a stint as Chancellor for Glasgow University. And for a few years, during Oliver Cromwell's reign as Lord Protector, Mr. Thurlow was Postmaster General. But his real job was something else entirely. From 1653 he was Cromwell's Spymaster and Head of Intelligence. Wow.

Exciting, isn't it? That is cool. I'd love that title, Head of Intelligence. It would be so great to introduce yourself in that way. They're going to do their due diligence. And when the microfilm film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from the film film film film film film film film film film film film film film film the the the the the the the the their their their to introduce yourself in that way. Tom Crane, head of intelligence. They're going to do their due diligence. And when the microfilm from the Daily Mirror pops up with the headline idiot and your picture at Glastonary of the 10th. There'll be two things.

They'll be like, yeah, boss, a couple of red flags here with Tom Crane. The daily mirror, the national press referred him as a the the idiot and in the last episode of the podcast he recorded he asked if elephants have knees I I'm not sure I don't know there there are alarm bells for for me the alarm bells for me the system of intelligence gathering established in 17th century England was for its time remarkably sophisticated which surprised me because I wouldn't have thought it would be that stuff to get at all. They employed all sorts of agents, so-called she intelligences, contemporary term, to gather information. She intelligences, female spies. By the time of the Civil War in the 1640s, with the parliamentarians versus the Royalists, women's spies were thought to be present in London and Oxford and was described as doing as much

mischief as any man whatsoever. Bond wasn't a mischief maker, was he? No, exactly. Yeah. Have you ever seen the film Munich? No. And there's a famous scene in that film where one of the Israeli spies gets killed by a female assassin. And that really, that is my kind of go-to image of a female spy

female assassin but even back in 1650s they were female spies in the early 1650s one woman spy was paid by the state the sum of 100 pounds for the good service done by her in giving intelligence to the armies of this Commonwealth at Worcester. A hundred's four-footed another that must be so much money now. So 100 pounds but the inflation calculator I've got only only only only only only only only only only only only only only only only only only only only only th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the thi. the th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. That must be so much money now. So 100 pounds, the inflation calculator I've got only goes back to 1760. Yeah, but 100 pounds in 1760 is the equivalent of 25,000 pounds today. Nice. Fair play, nice. So Thurlow adopted another approach. Yes, he would pay his spies, but they would be disguised on the public payroll. Women were labeled as nurses

when really they were spies. Thurlow's papers reveal not only domestic intelligence gathering, but he created an international spy network again in the 1600s. Sorry very briefly, the fact, can I just quickly cut on one one thing? Just the idea of someone labeled as a nurse who's actually a spy and you're in hospital saying, sorry you don't have treated me at all for the last 48 hours you've just asked me questions about where I've been this year who I have relationships with and my feelings towards the king yeah could I please get some medicine you've asked with the muskets a cat lots of times but you haven't

played any bandages I've got quite a temperature. Please give me something. Wow, claiming to be nurses, but they were spies. Got that put clapping for the NHS into a different perspective, doesn't it? I didn't know we were clapping the agents of the state. Yeah. And they'd know if you were clapping or not. They'd have all the information. So Thurlow's papers real-like, again this is 1600s. Not only did he have a domestic intelligence gathering network, but it was an international spy ring two. He had operatives at work in Paris, Brussels, Livorno, Rome, Bruges, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Antwerp and across the German

states. So he developed these huge networks. And also the matter of counterintelligence and the use of coded messaging to avoid intercept. So they're obviously when they're communicating with each other, they're writing letters. And they're writing these letters in code. And they're the letter are, the letter arrived in code. And I'll read it here. This is obviously 1600s. You may be pleased to take notice tar that there is one dispatched thither called Uslab Urklo which is code for Simon Suarez a 200 200 means Portugal he has Varden to give intelligence a hundred thirty nine of all that passes for anyway it's complicated but, they were writing

in code. That's the most confusing thing I've ever heard. I realized. I thought like you sounded a bit like you were sort of, you were flicking between radio stations. Yeah. Yeah. They had a complex code when they were writing to each other that could be decoded. So it looked like a normal letter, but obviously there's a code in the air like tipping that. That that. That that. That that. That's thing in that's that's that's thing in that's that's that's their th. That's their their their their that's their their that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a their their that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's their. That's their. That's their. That's their their their their their their their their their their their their their the most most the most the most the most the most the most the most the most the most the most the most the most the most the most the most the most the most their their their the were writing to each other that could be decoded. So it looked like a normal letter, but obviously there's a code in there like tipping people off about spies. So again, a complex international spy ring, they're writing it in code. Other aspects of the code included Sparker for Spain, Fruz for France, Prant for Paris. You get an idea of these different code words they're using. And then by the time Charles II of course comes back on the throne in 1660 onwards and suddenly the spy network of Cromwell is of course at risk but also there were spies working for the Royalists on the other side of the Civil War

and beyond once Cromwell was in charge. And so when Charles II resumed the throne, these former spies were petitioning the state for financial aid as compensation for their service for Charles I and for the royalist side while it was out of power effectively. And from these petitions we can see that the old Soviet doctrine of death to spies was very much in operation in England in the 1640s and 1650s. So there's examples of people who were spying for the king getting caught by the Cromwell side and being punished for it. One of those who sent in a a a in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in a the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their. their. their. thealist. the the theoliolies. the the the the the the the the the the the the the their. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thealies. thealies. thealoiliolealoiliolealoeoeoeoeoeoeoeoeoeoeoeileoeoileoileoeoeoealeoilealealealist. the. the. the thwell side and being punished for it. One of those who sent in a petition was Catherine DeLuke of the New Forest, who claimed to have been carrying the King's commissions, his letters and private intelligence where no one else would do it, and her dangerous journeys took her from Bristol

to Charles I's capital at Oxford. And after Charles's death in January 1649, Catherine was sent to Bridewell prison by Cromwell's regime and there she was tortured. According to her letters, whipped every other day, burnt with light matches, lashed and cruelly tormented to make me betray my trust. And she was like, you owe me for this. I would give up my secrets. They wouldn't even have to get the matches out of the box. Hold up a box of swan matches. OK, okay, okay I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I was okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. the the the the th. th. th. It was th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. C. th. C. th. th. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. Ceded. Ced. Ced. Ced. Ced. Ced. Ced. Ced. Ced. Ced. Ced. Ced. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. C. S. C. C. C. C. C. C matches. Okay, okay, I'll tell you.

It was Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris, the West, Conradite, write a podcast, he does a lot of half-time stuff. Tom writes for the last leg, he writes for loads of things. He does a radio show called Rhea Knaithen. I was at university with him, but you to the there was 15, he doesn't know if elephants have got knees! Then they open the box and it's empty. They've used them all. There was no need. Another contemporary of Catherine DeLuke was Elizabeth Carey, aka Welsh Bess. She was likewise captured and tortured as a spy and a courier, bringing proclamations and declarations from Oxford to London.

For this, she was imprisoned by Cromwell's side. She had her back broken and she was shown the gibbet from which she was to be hanged. Oh! And then Mr Furlow, well so basically Charles II resumes the throne. You've got the restoration of the monarchy in 1660. Mr Thurlow, he must have been, one of a better expression, shitting himself. The former spy master, death despise, the punishment he handed out. Can you imagine that thing? You would just be that, I am absolutely finished.

I'm absolutely finished. I'm drunquished. He did thinks that he was seen as highly valuable. So what happened to him? Any guesses? Well, something horrendous, I'm guessing. And drunk watered. It turns out, he was seen as highly valuable. And that, like, he was seen as more valuable to the state than to have a symbolic death. He was charged with high treason in May 1660, but released a month later, with the message, we'll call you when we need you. Oh, God. That's how good! I love Charles II. I think he's my favorite king. That's incredible.

He's a clever bloke. Mithurlo retired from public life, but behind the scenes remained an advisor to the new government, paving the way for the intelligence system employed by Charles II's ministers. In those those those as many as 20 spies were kept on the books the books at any one time, some of them volunteers, the thoes, thole, thole, thole, thole, thii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's thi.. thi, he's thi, he's thi, he's thi, he's thi, he's thi, he's thi, he's a thi, he's a thi, he's a thi. thioleeeeeeee, he's a thiole, he's a thiole, he's a thiole, he's a thiole, he's a thi. thi. thi of them volunteers, others paid by the state. And with the creation of the post office in 1660, spies had a new avenue for intelligence gathering and eagerly intercepted the male searching for information of plots and underground descent. So 1600 stands out a rich period for spies. They were everywhere and quite complex in nature.

The way they dealt with spies in terms of punishing them or killing them them has changed, obviously. So then they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they just their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the. I the. I the. I the. I just just just just just. I just. I've too. I've tooea. I've tooea. I've tooea. I've tooea. I've tooea. I've tooed. I've thea. I've they dealt with spies in terms of punishing them or killing them has changed obviously. So then they just literally broke their back and showed them the gibbet. Now in films, the spy is given, they'll start off something like a laser will start moving very slowly. And the spy has a minimum of seven minutes to get out of the situation. Yeah. So they'll always be dangling above a shark tank and they'll slowly be moved and everyone will leave the room. All the people that need to be what they'll go. I'm gonna assume this is just done. Yeah this is done. There's no way he's getting out of this. Should we go and have some food? Whereas back the laser on. Oh yeah, yeah. They say, so Mr Bond, I expect you're wondering how I did all of this.

Yeah, yeah, I am actually. Because, you know, if I escape, that would be really useful to know. Well, I suppose as your fate has been decided, I'll tell you in some detail over the next three to four minutes. Oh, if you will. And as soon as this long rope burns down and hits that, that bell which sounds and makes the cat jump over there and hit the... You'll be done for. Unfortunately I can't stick around to watch that because when it comes to moments like this, believe it or not, despite reaching where I am at the moment, I'm actually quite complacent.

And it's that, it's being that complacent is probably going to come back to home me in a few minutes or so, I don't know, I don't know, not sure. And I'm not good with blood to be to be to be the to be the the the to be the to be their their to be their their their their to be their to be their their their, the. thi, thi, thi, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sure, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not sure, I'm not to be to be thi, I'm their, I'm not thi. thi. thi. thi. to to to thi. to to to to to to to thoo. to to to to that's thea. to that's that's that's thi. thi. thea, to be honest, James, so I'm leaving it. I'm a bit of a fainter. I feel a bit queasy, actually, so I'll probably go somewhere else for a bit. And I'm going to leave the key to this jail cell just over here, just now to reach. Okay, so that's spying in 1600s done. That's part one done. In part two, we've got spies in ancient Rome, the secret police in ancient row, which is, I loved it. One of my favorite things I've researched. L. What are you going to be talking about in part two? The files the BBC had on people suspected of spies. Fantastic. If you want to get that now, you can sign up, come an O-Wa's-time-timetimer on your app, Spotify, Apple, or on O-Wat-Time.

to times. You'll get that all now. If not, we'll see the rest of you tomorrow. Thanks guys. Bye! Bye! I'm a little bit. the the