Oh What A Time... - #53 Spies (Part 2)

Episode Date: June 24, 2024

This is Part 2! For Part 1, check the feed from yesterday! Cut a couple of holes in your newspaper and have a butchers at this week’s episode which is: Spies. We’ll be checking out how sophisticated spies were in Britain during the 1600s, we’ll be peeping on the secret police in Ancient Rome and we’ll be trying to spy on the spies of the BBC. And we’ve got more listener blunders this week to make Tom feel better. Have you done something as silly as accidentally packing a duffel coat thinking it was a sleeping bag? If yes, you can email us at: [e-mail] If you're impatient and want both parts in one lovely go next time plus a whole lot more(!), why not treat yourself and become an Oh What A Time: FULL TIMER? In exchange for your £4.99 per month to support the show, you'll get: - two bonus episodes every month! - ad-free listening - episodes a week ahead of everyone else - And first dibs on any live show tickets Subscriptions are available via AnotherSlice, Apple and Spotify. For all the links head to: ohwhatatime.com You can also follow us on:  X (formerly Twitter) at @ohwhatatimepod And Instagram at @ohwhatatimepod Aaannnd if you like it, why not drop us a review in your podcast app of choice? Thank you to Dan Evans for the artwork (idrawforfood.co.uk). Chris, Elis and Tom x Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This is part two of Spieseng. We should get on with it. Okay, so today I'm going to be talking about spies and ancient Rome. I think it is. I think it is. I love, I think it is. I love to talking about anything to do with ancient Rome. What are your guys feeling? What do you feel about it? It's a, it is, it's kind of a particularly fascinating time, Ithink isn't it? It is I love ancient Rome and also I was saying you've become like the ancient Rome expert I feel that you take us back to ancient Rome better than anyone. Thank you very much. That's well that's all I wanted. That's all I have all. I knew almost nothing about it until this podcast because I my degree was in modern history and now I wish I'd ditch the politics and done straight history and done a lot on the ancient Rome because I find it absolutely fascinating.

What I think is quite interesting about this, I think it's probably fair to say that despite the sort of paranoia that you associate with ancient Rome with emperors being murdered, lovers being poisoned, all the backstabbing, all the gossip, all the sort of stuff. You don't really think about ancient Rome, the thin, than, than, than, than, than, than, than, thian, I is thian, I is thian, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I'm, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I's, I's, I thi, I'm probably is probably is probably, I'm thi, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I is interesting, I is interesting is probably is probably is probably is probably is probably is probably is probably is probably is probably is probably is probably is probably, I's, I's, I army, I think that's fair, but the secret police isn't really something you would associate with ancient Rome. It's something you associate with Soviet Russia, Imperial, Japan. Yes, certainly 20th century. Yeah, exactly, but it's not something that ever comes up this idea of spies, but the ancient Romans very much had their own secret police. Now, it's all set up to, obviously, unsurprisingly, keep the Emperor in the know to be across things. But I want to take you back to the start of it, and how this all started. Now, the Frumentari were established, it seems, under Emperor Domitam, who ruled

the Emperor from 81 to the to 96 ADE. And the frumentari are what became the secret police. However, they didn't start as a secret police, just to give you some context. The word frumentari derives from the Latin for grain, which is frumentum, and the earliest soldiers appointed to the post of frumentarious oversaw the grain ration. So their main role, it was an organization in ancient Rome, whose role was to make sure that the army was supplied with grain. So of course the army was spread all across the empire and keeping them fed was such an important part of Roman life. It's a crucial role. And these duties, taking the grain out to the Roman army, involved lots of traveling, which brought them into contact with locals, merchants, landmark, settlements, etc. Meaning that they were often coming back with useful strategic knowledge. So this group that was simply there to get grain

to the army would return with knowledge about the places they passed through. And this is something that the emperors started to see an advantage in. And so under Emperor Trajan who came to power in 98 AD and then his successor Hadrion, the Frumentari began to morph into this military police force whose interests were rooted in intelligence and were often separate from those of the army the army the army the army the army to the army to the army to the army to the army to to the army to the army to the army to to the army to the army to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army.a the army.a the army.a the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army the army.a the army.a their the army would the army would the army would the army.a the, the Frumentari began to morph into this military police force whose interests were rooted in intelligence and were often separate from those of the army. And Hadrian, the successor, was someone who pushes even further, and he started to employ the forces to spy on his friends and families. So this is the first time the force was used for espionage and for getting information from

people secretly. How would it affect our relationship if I had the secret police spying on you? It would be so embarrassing how boring my life was. You'd be filing reports and they'd be saying this is what you're providing is absolute shy. This was brought into sharp focus in the day because I did a new podcast hosted by Max Reschton and David O'Docity where you have to discuss your the previous day in intimate detail. So from the second you walk up to the second you went to bed to the second you fell asleep what were you doing? So obviously the you know it was booked in weeks ago you know, 7th or whatever it was. I'd forgotten about it, so I didn't make my June the 6th very interesting. So it was very honest and my God it was dull.

So the idea that the secret, the secret police are coming back to Tom Crane, they're like, huh, he went on his phone for a bit. Um, he went to the... he had a shower. I mean that's the morning really, that's the morning gone. Incredible. What was he looking out on his phone? Let's just let's just find out if that's something works. Yeah he was sort of flit to flit him between a couple of news websites, a bit of social media, reply to one or two emails. I mean I don't think this guy is a threat to the state if I'm honest. This is not usable. He's just wasting his life. So Hadrin uses them initially to spy on his family and friends they say but then the Fremantario also involved in other forms of espionard including

rooting out dissent in the general population so one Roman writer described how they worked. This is how they initially worked. A soldier dressed like a civilian sits down by to to to to to speak to speak to speak to speak to speak to speak to speak to speak to speak to speak to speak to speak to speak to speak the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their. He their. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He's. He's. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. He's just. He's. He. This is how they initially worked. A soldier, dressed like a civilian, sits down by your side and begins to speak ill of Caesar, and then you two, just as though you've received from him, some guarantee of good faith and the fact that he began the abuse, tell likewise everything you think of Caesar, and the next thing is, you're being led off to prison in chains. Which is absolutely is absolutely is absolutely is absolutely is absolutely is, I can just a friendly chat with someone who I've never met before

who happens to be bringing up this slightly controversial subject. I'm going, oh no, it's fine. He's chatting to me. He must be a good guy. Actually, that is how I would have been caught until social media, and now social media has stopped me from putting anything controversial online. So prior to 2011 or whatever it was I got to it I'd been like Caesar the guy's a complete dick mate. Now I'd have been like, yeah I do like 90s football and I am going to leave it there so I think see you later. And this stops off went on throughout the Roman world especially his height. The Emperor Carula, for example, considered to be the worst of the imperial tyrants, was said to have spies everywhere. So it grew and grew.

Sometimes these spies were tasked with bloody jobs, including assassinations, and they were given a license to kill. So they were starting to kill some of the top ranking officials at the behest of the emperor. But it wasn't all blood and guts. This is this example made me laugh. This something I think you'd be more tempted by. Sometimes the Fremantari were sent on special missions. The head of the Praetorian Guard under Emperor Septimus service sent some of his men into Asia, this is more fun mission, to steal some zebras from a rival empire. So it wasn't all killing. They were sent off to do these sort of weird jobs by the Emperor.

So it wasn't always killing, sometimes they just sneak off, steal things and come back in the dead night. It'd be hard to steal a zebrook.. It's, don't, don't, don't, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's tho, it's thi, it, th, it's tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, th, their, their, their, their, their, their, th, th, their, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, theea, thea, thea.a, thea, thea, thi.a, don't be domesticated. Yeah. It must be hard to ride the zebra. It's not. No. Yeah. Yeah. How are you getting a zebra back? You can't ride it back. Even if you've got a compliant zebra. You've got a walk through the streets with a zebra. It's like, yeah, yeah. People will remember that. It's not the kind of thing you you you you you th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People th. People will th. People will th. th. th. th. th. It's th. It's thi. It's to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the their their their th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's thi. It's the the se seeat the theeeeeat the the the the theeeeeeat the the theeeeeeat theeeat their theat the can blend into the background walking down the street with a zebra. Well you can stand on a zebra crossing, you could stand there and he wouldn't get noticed for about it. I don't wait until it calms and move on again. You can run over. I've just remembered, I've just remembered, talking about spying on like friends and family, because that's one of the famous things that the Stasi would do the East German police..... And I. And I. And I. And I. And I. And I. And I. And I. And I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'll, I'll to to to to to to wait, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, to to to to to to they. to to to to they. to to to to to they. to, which was that they would call you in for an interview if they suspected you of something. And they would kind of ask you a few questions, but the real reason they were dragging you in

was that they would get you to sit on a seat, and the seat would have like a removable cloth, and basically this clothed, they'd their seat, and basically this cloth was was was was was was their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their their their to ask you to ask you a few. to ask you a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few a few....ed you asked you asked you asked you asked you asked you were kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind... They were were were were. They'd was. They'd was. They'd was. They'd was. We'd was kind. We'd was kind. thease. throwne. Wea. We'd were. We'd were. thea. Wea. Wea. They'd asked. It was, to ask. It was kind to train dogs in future to go after you, they had your scent on a cloth that they would keep in a jar and they go to the dogs. Sniff that, right, go get him. That is scary. Yeah? Generally quite something, isn't it? Bite his bum smell. The idea that these bites would have jars and jars of your bum smell, but thousands of bum smells in a library. The bum smell library of East Germany. What a job to be overseeing that.

Yeah, I want to be an archivist, not that kind. But what's interesting is that in time the Frumentary's kind of unlimited power led to corruption and cruel behavior. It all started to shift, became quite sinister. They started to raid homes with little evidence, basically to demand compensation from those inside. They torture people, they'd imprisoned people, they'd execute citizens, often not only very loose information, and inevitably their reputation began to crumble. And with spies, sort of lurking throughout the empire, citizens of Rome didn't know when they were being observed. This is what's interesting.

Fear and paranoia started to grow because nobody knew who they could trust. It really affected society at that time, and people felt they were unable to speak freely, essentially. So much so that eventually became so hated that Emperor Diocletian abolished the agency in 310 AD creating a new one in its place. The agents in Rebus or agents and affairs who are the eyes of the Emperor. What's clear is that even after this change ordinary Romans still didn't trust them. In fact they nicknamed them the Curiosi which is the snoopers which kind of partly reflected their basically role as invigilated to to the post to the Post to the Post to the Post to the Post the post to the po the po to the po the po to the post to the post. the post. the post. the post. their their to to to their to to to their to to to their. their. toe. their. their. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. toe. toe..........................................................................................................................................................named them the Curiosi, which is the snoopers, which kind of partly reflected

their basically role as invigilated the Postal Service. So like modern-day spies, they would open your posts, they'd read your mail. They had complete freedom to do whatever was required to find incriminating information. Which is why it's not surprising, like this, I love. In Pompeii, there are inscriptions on the wall slagging them off. So there's graffiti throughout Pompeii calling this new organization snakes and threatening to give the Curioso the rope to hang them basically.

Another inscription even identifies a man that the locals feel is a Curioso undercover, a man a man by the name of Vitalio. So this graffiti outing other people as spies. So on the walls in Pompeii. You're not doing a particularly good job as a spy, I think if you're walking around you're seeing your name everywhere. That's incredible. It is amazing, isn't it?

So there was a real hatred because it was affecting the way that people interacted with one another. I mean, if you're unable to speak freely, we talk about, you know, freedom of speech and all this sort of stuff and this idea of being able to express yourself. It is an important thing, it is an important thing. And living in society where you're not free to speak and disagree or whatever must be stifling, claustrophobic and awful. And I guess that's how spies have evolved really because I mean spies are not something you think about in this day and age but you know they exist but they blend so seamlessly into the background that you're not, you don't think about them day to day but of course there are spies everywhere. Whereas in ancient Rome it's you kind of everyone knew, you know what the thi. That's how spies. their their their their their their their is their is their is their is kind their is kind is kind their is kind their is kind their is kind thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, thi. Yeah, is, is, thi. Yeah, thi. Si. Si. Si. Si. Si. Si. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S spies have evolved to become more anonymous. The other thing with intelligence or military intelligence, it's flawed. They're often wrong. Yeah, absolutely. But I think because of spy films, I reckon actual

spies must watch spy films like at their Christmas do and just laugh out loud at the Hollywood depiction of spying. They I reckon they get a couple of cans in, and they are pissing themselves. What does Possible sound like for your business? It's having to spend to power your scale with no preset spending limit. Redefine possible with business platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and Conditions apply,

visit Amex.C.A.S. Business Platinum. I work for the BBC. I do a radio show on BBC Radio 5 Live. It's actually a podcast first now that's broadcast on the radio on a Friday afternoon. The reason it's not every day is because I am a communist. Now I am going to take you back to the 1930s. In March 1937 the then Director General of the BBC Sir John Reith went to a meeting with the Home Secretary Sir John Simon about the corporation's role during wartime. It was around this time the wreath agreed to implement

new veting procedures in conjunction with MI5 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi of thi of thi of thi of thi of thi of thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th day day th day th day th day day day day day day day day day day day day day day day day day day th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the thi thi the thi thi thi thi thi theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaa. thea. thea. this time that Reith agreed to implement new vetting procedures in conjunction with MI5, the UK's domestic intelligence service. So there was to be an officer. A new office on the first floor of Broadcasting House, who rose to work and a vetting process for editorial applicants, making sure that there was nothing problematic in their record membership, the Communist Party, the British Union of fascist, subscriptions to magazines or newspapers like the Daily Worker that sort of thing. So that's the reason that they never got rid of Nehal and put me and John there instead is because I have a subscription to the

daily worker and I'm you know I'm not ashamed of it. Now the vetting officer V or the VO was formerly known as the special assistant to the director director director director director director director director director director director director director director director director director the vetting officer, the V-O, was formerly known as the Special Assistant, the Director of Personnel and based at Room 105, which is exactly the corridors it happens on which George Orwell bases Room 101 and the Ministry of Love in the novel or 1984. Now I don't know Room 105. I can guarantee to you that now it is probably a stock cupboard and there's loads of staplers in there. But yeah, it must have been different in the 30s. Unless it was a multi-purpose.

It might still have been full of staplers, which is quite a difficult working environment, also keeping tabs on the employees. Now the VO worked according to a hierarchy and a policy that the BBC called formalities. Category A, we advise against any employment in a broadcast or editorial post. Category B, we advise against unless there are overriding considerations. C. Category C. C. C. C. C. We advise that candidates be employed but treated with caution. That's where I am, C. C. Fascinating. Now, um, staff files were marked with a symbol that resembled a Christmas tree. It was in fact an up arrow indicating for the attention of higher ups. So this meant, although most of the BBC rank and file were unaware that the individual had

been flagged as potentially subversive, potentially a spy. One of those who fell foul with the Christmas tree formalities was the noted historian, Eric Hopspound applied for a job at the BBC several times in the 1940s when he was interviewed in 1945, he was regarded as an excellent candidate, but then he was vetted. Now, MI5 told the BBC that Hopsbome is not likely to lose any opportunity he may get to disseminate propaganda and obtain recruits for the Communist Party. In the event of his applying for BBC employment at a later date his name will be referred to us for vetting before any other action is taken. I read a lot of hopsbun when I was at university and you know he was a

Marxist historian, he was one of the most famous Marxist historians and I had his books recommended to me by my lecturers and when he died he died relatively recently. That's how the daily mail referring to him as my lecturers and when he died, he died relatively recently. That's how the Daily Mail were referring to him as a Marxist historian, that he sort of hated his country and all that kind of stuff. Wow. And he was seen as being very subversive. Now it could go wrong, of course, Sir Hugh Green, who rose to become Director General in the 1960s. He later remarked, I was vetted in 1940. MI5 thought I was a communist but it tend not to be a mistake. So during his tenure at DG, however, Green had to deny the existence of the Christmas tree

telling a sort of journalist that we don't do that sort of thing. In fact, he was following a script laid out by MI5, nor in the BBC files as college. Wow. As someone has worked for the BBC the a long time, this is hilarious to me. Obviously I do comedies, so I am not a danger to the BBC or to Britain. When you read about the BBC, particularly sort of doing the war or just before the war, it just seems like such a different institution. Yeah. So, so conspiratorial. Yeah. But okay, that's the mindset maybe. But you know, you didn't have

commercial television. So it was a sort of an arm of the state, I suppose, because ITV didn't come into existence to the 50s. Yeah, perfect excuse if you ever overlooked for a job there. It's just to go, yeah, well, they obviously didn't come a communist. Yeah, I'll be, I'll be saying you is because I'm a communist. They're scared what I'll say. Pride and won't have me on. That's the whole point out, you won't lie to them. You'll tell the people what they need to. Yeah, I'll stand up and I'll say, I am a communist and this is not a lie.

Crucially, there'll be no jokes. Now as for Opspbum, his card was permanently marked. So any correspondence with this man obtaining a job of the BBC should be referred upwards, recorded his file. From now on he could contribute radio talks and be a participant in programs, but he was not to be brought onto the staff. So the Christmas tree file had a cousin in the BBC's vetting system, one known as the starred file, as the foreign correspondent Kate Aidy recalled in her memoir, their second symbol comprised a list of personal foibles which proved you were an interesting employee. So the origin of these procedures lies in the sharing of information between MI5 and the

the 1930. So in 1933 a BBC executive often met with a head of MI5, Vernon Kel to discuss their concerns about enemy active and met with the head of MI5, Sir Vernon Kell, to discuss their concerns about enemy active and to protect the BBC from communist infiltration. So the executive was Major General Alan Dalney. He'd been a colleague of Ronsorabian the British Army's Cairo-based Arab Bureau during the First World War and wrote to become the War Office's Director of Public Relations before his death in 1938. So one of his specialities was the gathering of intelligence, to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the BBC, the, the, the, the, the, the, the BBC, the, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC's, enemy, enemy, the BBC, enemy, the BBC, the BBC, enemy, the BBC, enemy, the BBC, enemy, the BBC, enemy, the BBC, the BBC, the BBC, enemy, So one of his specialities was the gathering of intelligence. On the 26th of August 1939, just before the outbreak of war, this process

of information gathering led to the creation of the BBC's monitoring service initially headquartered in Worcestershire ostensibly set up to spy on foreign broadcasts. It was. No way! Yeah and is staffed by a multilingual pool of observers, many of whom were refugees in the early years. So the service was really useful during the Second World War and the Cold War for gathering material from places where journalists were either banned or could not reach. So Winston Churchill famously rang up in the middle of the night to ask of Hitler, what's he been saying? Wow, really? Really? That's absolutely fascinating.

What's he saying then? So for 1943, BBC monitoring was based at Cavishan He's not saying to it. It's not good stuff. A lot of shouting. A lot of shouting. Yeah, it's really, it's quite right wing. Now from 1943, BBC monitoring was based at Caversen Park,

which was the former home of the Merthyrton Iron Master William Crochet, but Cavish and Park is a sort of Victorian stately home on the outskirts of Redding. So if anyone asks where the profits of the Welsh iron industry went, well at least some of them was spent on this place which paved the way for the BBC's spy department. So the Christmas tree file was retired in the mid-1980s. Having drawn to his attention to itself, yes. So the vetting procedures carried on for a few more years. The irony is that amongst the many people vetted by the formalities policy was Guy Burgess. Yes, famous spy. the famous spy. He was one of the Cambridge, one of the Cambridge spies.

So he was at the Corporation during the Second World War, working as a to famous famous famous famous famous famous... to famous. to famous. to be. to be. to be. to be. the to be. the their, their, their, to be, their, their, their, their, to be, their, their, their, to be, their, their, their, their, their, their, the vet, to the vet, the vet, to the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, the vet, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, vetting.v.v. their, vetting procedure, their, vetting procedure, their, the vetting procedure, the vetting.v. the Cambridge, one of the Cambridge spies. So he was at the Corporation during the Second World War, working as a talk producer. He'd already been recruited as a Soviet spy as a student at Cambridge in the 30s, but no only the BBC knew anything about that. So even the intelligence and security services thought very highly of him. One of those, who Burgess, he was used on the radio was another of the Cambridge spies, Anthony Blunt. I think there were five of them, weren't they of the Cambridge spies? Who was exposed to the public by Thatcher 1979. So after Burgess's defection to the Soviet Union in 1951 with fellow Cambridge spy Donald McLean, it was Burgess and McLean. I mean that was a huge story in the 1950s. The BBC was hauled in to account for his actions in employing him twice because they got it wrong. But it was too late. There was no Christmas tree for Mr Burgess.

Absolutely fascinating. Amazing. Yeah, and you know, my political leanings have prevented me from reaching my full potential as a broadcaster, and I have to live with that's it for this week. If you want bonus episodes, two bonus episodes a month now and a whole raft of bonus episodes in our archive, you can become an O What a Time Full Timer, support the show, get both parts at the same time in future weeks and a bit earlier than everyone else. To sign up, go to O What a Time.com. Thank you for listening to Spies with us. We'll see you next week, or will we? Oh, I like that. Maybe we stood behind you right now.

That's switching curtain. It's made. See you guys. Bye. Right. I'm a little bit. the