Parks and Recollection - Alan Sepinwall: Halloween Surprise (S5E5)

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

Rolling Stone’s chief TV critic Alan Sepinwall joins Jim O’Heir and Greg Levine to break down the “fart attack” heard ‘round the world and Ben and Leslie’s heartwarming proposal. Plus, Alan discusses the joys of sitting in on the Parks writers room, the challenge of writing a negative episode review for a show that you love, and the satisfaction of gleaning a wildly successful career out of watching television.Got a question for the Pawnee Town Hall? Send us an email at [e-mail]!

We're getting together to talk about all the things we used to do The laughs, the passions, the little Sebastian's, the pets we fell into And we're putting it on in a podcast Then we'll send it up into the sky We're calling it Pox and Recollection Come on, little podcast Spread your wings and fly Hello, everybody. We are back.

This is Jim O'Hare. I'm the guy who played Gary, Larry, Jerry, Terry, even Barry from Johnny Karate. And I'm here with my co-host, and I'll let him introduce himself because I can never, ever remember his name. Guy, you're so kind to give me an opportunity to say my own name. Thank you, Jim. It's Greg Levine. Jim and I are beyond excited to be jumping into today's episode for two great reasons. One, it's a special episode in the life of Jerry Gergich.

Really special, yeah. That we're going to get into. And it's a special episode in the life of Parks and Recollection because we have a guest today. He spent 14 years as a TV journalist at the Star Ledger in Newark, New Jersey, has written a book about the Fox teen drama series, The O.C. Cult. Welcome to The O.C. He's currently Rolling Stone's chief TV critic, fellow podcaster as host of OBB Sounds' Too Long Didn't Watch. Welcome TV critic and friend of Parks and Recreation, Alan Sepinwall. Oh, thank you for having me, guys.

This is fantastic. I'm so excited to talk about this show anytime, anyplace, anywhere. I love that. Let me just jump in and say, because when this show started, I was not even a series regular. I was guesting week to week, hoping to get the phone call that I was coming back the next week. I didn't know what was happening.

But I was very invested for many reasons. One, hoping that perhaps I would get more involved. And two, I just thought it was brilliant. And so I wanted the show to go on and on and on. And you were one of our just really early voices of love for the show. I mean, you had your critiques of it, which were valid. But I always felt you had our back. And you seem to be so there for all of us.

I think throughout the seven seasons, you were such a big part of it. And I just want to tell you, I am very grateful for that. And I think the cast would say the same thing. Well, that's very kind of you to say such a big part of it. And I just want to tell you, I am very grateful for that. And I think the cast would say the same thing. Well, that's very kind of you to say, Jim. I appreciate it. I mean, I wouldn't have said

any of those things if I didn't believe them. I mean, that show brought me so much happiness, not only when it was on, but I've now done a couple of rewatches with each of my kids

over the years. Everyone gathered in the living room very excited to watch this episode and to see you have the fart attack. The big fart attack.

Yeah, it's always, like I said, I'm not exaggerating when I say I'm always happy to talk about this show because it is one of my all-time favorites. When you first saw it from the pilot, what were your thoughts? Because, you know, there was a lot of, is it too much like Michael Scott, you know, Leslie's character? Where were you at with all that? Because I knew Mike and Greg, you know, from The Office, and I knew Greg forever because King of the Hill started basically when I started being a TV critic. I was sort of like, okay, I'm going to give this a chance. It definitely felt like those first few episodes, like they were trying different

things, which often happens with comedies. And, you know, they'll tell you Leslie was maybe a little too thirsty, and the other characters were responding to her a little bit too judgmentally. And the main thing that you could feel palpable by the end of that season, and especially by the start of the next one was Leslie's behavior didn't change that much, but suddenly instead of like April and Tom and other people making fun of her, everyone was kind of in awe of her. And so these things that had seemed like weaknesses very quickly became strengths. And that was really all it needed because you guys were so funny in the writing. Other than that was so good that it just took off almost immediately after that.

Yeah, I think what people don't get is in general, there was a blessing. I wouldn't say a curse, but the good and bad. The great was you get told you're going to get six episodes. You're going straight to series. That is a dream comment. You know, like, wow. Because normally you do a pilot. You never know're going straight to series. That is a dream comment. You know, like, wow. Because normally you do a pilot, you never know what's going to happen. Most pilots never go past the pilot stage. So here we have these six episodes, but the gift of a pilot is that you

live and learn what works, what doesn't work. And then you can revamp, you know, if the show gets picked up, we just kind of had to start going. And again, there were things that had to be figured out. But I totally agree with you. By season two, it was taken off. Like you could see from that very first episode of Pawnee Zoo, like even when she's doing the Will Smith rap, but everything, that whole story, you feel like, okay, this is a show that has figured itself out really, really quickly. And it just, it only got better from there.

It takes a while, I think, for the synthesis between writing, idea, and acting to come together. That, you know, around the fifth or sixth episode is when you've seen enough cuts of your thing and you're not just writing the episodes in a vacuum. You start to see the actors add their component to it, what's working, and then you are adjusting for a few episodes. And right around the 10th episode or so, I think, is when you start to have that moment where I think most shows become the show that they're going to be. And obviously, things are a bit different now with our streaming model, and a lot of shows are written in advance of the entire maybe season ever being shot. But I find that to be true. The first four

or five episodes of season two, I think, were when the show coalesced and we start to learn backstories for our secondary characters. It feels like that's right around when people start to think of when did Parks and Rec become it is right around then. No, I agree. And comedies very rarely start out great. Like, you can list the ones that are themselves, you know, with the first episode on one hand. It's like Cheers, Modern Family, a few others. It's almost never. Simpsons took like three seasons

to become what we think of as The Simpsons. So the fact that like it took you guys less than 10 is actually really remarkable. I mean, it took The Office until its second season too. So this is not an unusual thing. It's just like you say, Greg, it's harder to ask people to be patient now than it was then. But I'm glad there were enough people willing to be patient for you guys to stick around as long as you did.

I'm curious, one, were you a big TV watcher as a kid growing up? Were you admonished for watching too much TV? And how did you know when you would kind of make a career out of it? I mean, yes, I watched way too much TV. I had like an old black and white TV set in my room, 13 inch with a headphone jack. And so I could like turn out the lights in my room and plug in like, you know, this little old fashioned white ear plug or something and watch stuff without anyone in the house being aware. I spent a lot of, you know, I would do my homework quickly so I could watch all the reruns on the local stations. And so not only was I watching everything that was current, I was watching all of this really old stuff, relatively speaking, like, you know, I've seen every episode of F Troop.

Yes, of course. You know, well before my time, that kind of thing. So, you know, so when I had kids, like I would sing them that theme song and all the others as sort of like their lullabies. And I definitely growing up, I got a lot of less from my parents, although some from them, but more from other relatives. Like I had an aunt who for years was convinced I was developmentally disabled because all I did when I came to visit was I would park myself in front of the TV and she would say, how's he going to make a living doing that? I showed her. Yes, yes, yes.

That's amazing. And were you obsessed with some of the old comedies at the time as far as like Dick Van Dyke and Mary Tyler Moore, that type of show? All in the Family was a big one here. And again, that's something like I sort of, I always had kind of old man TV taste. So that's a show like a little kid, in theory, shouldn't be getting a lot out of, but I did.

I started watching like Hill Street Blues, again, way too old for me. LA Law, like, I don't know. I was learning about something called the Venus Butterfly move, which I should not have been learning about at that age. So, you know, I loved all this stuff. Weirdly, even though I love TV,

I kind of wanted to be a movie critic because I watched Siskel and Ebert and I thought, oh, like you can do I loved all this stuff. Weirdly, even though I love TV, I kind of wanted to be a movie critic because I watched Siskel and Ebert and I thought, oh, like you can do this. This is great, I'll do that. And then somehow when I went up at the Star Ledger, it was at a moment when their TV critic had basically been writing about television since television existed and was nearing retirement

and they needed someone to kind of back him up. And that became me. And, you know, and fortunately I was very lucky because I started doing it right at a time when TV was starting to become what we think of it now. You know, Sopranos was a couple of years out of that. And, you know, so I've gotten to cover a real golden age period of this medium. It's been very fortunate. And because you've watched so much television over the years, are you over it or do you still love doing what you do? I still love it.

I mean, you can't watch as much as I do and not love it. I mean, to a degree, I've been doing it so long, I'm not sure what the hell else I would do at my age. But no, I love it. It's when I see a new show that's great. It's so exciting when I get to tell other people about it, when I get to really dig in, whether it's writing a review for Rolling Stone

or, you know, writing one of my books about different shows, it's like the juice I get is really satisfying in some ways even more than when I started. That's awesome. Well, let's jump into today's episode because we have a lot to talk about.

It is a very special episode in the life of Jerry. It is Halloween Surprise written by series creator Michael Schur, directed by Dean Holland, just a dream team, originally airing on October 25th, 2012. And Jim, can you read our blurb, please? Okay, the blurb. After Jerry has a minor and very odiferous heart attack, Leslie holds a charity event to raise funds to pay for his hospital bills.

Meanwhile, there's trouble in paradise between Ron and Diane due to a botched trick-or-treating trip. And back in Washington, D.C., Ben considers a new job offer, which would take him to Florida, but winds up taking an even bigger leap of faith with Leslie. Oh, I love that. Well, I want to call out a few notes that we have in our research, which is fantastic. At this point in the run, there was major buzz about Parks being the front runner to win the Emmy for Best Comedy. But the air was let out of everyone's sails when immediately following the exhilarating shoot with then Vice President Biden, the cast and crew found out that we were not even nominated. And fueled by adrenaline and

disappointment, Mike Schur wrote this episode. So I'm going to jump right into our synopsis. It's Halloween once again in Pawnee, and after some strong convincing from Andy, Ron begrudgingly agrees to go trick-or-treating with Diane and her kids. But when Diane gets called away to handle a work crisis, Ron blows it with Diane's girls, ruining the night for everyone. Meanwhile, Leslie enlists Anne's help looking for a new house to rent in anticipation of Ben's return from Washington, D.C., and is disappointed to find out that Jennifer Barkley has been in mind for yet another campaign, this time taking him to Florida. I don't know about you guys, but watching this episode,

knowing what's going to come at the end of it, knowing a proposal is going to come at the end, I found myself getting all these feelings for these two characters who just clearly love each other, but time and time again, thanks to the writing, have had these wrenches thrown into just the happy life together. Greg, you may remember this.

I visited the Parks Writers Room a few times, and I remember one time it was, I guess, during season four, when they're doing, like, Ben and Leslie can't be together because of the rule against, you know, supervisors dating employees in government. Yeah.

And Mike starts asking me, so, you know, what do you think of the season so far? I'm like, guys, you're driving me nuts with this Ben and Leslie thing. Like, Adam and Amy are so good together. Like, you don't have to just keep Jim and Pamming it. Put them together. It'll be really okay.

They're really funny together. You know, why are you keep throwing these obstacles in their path? And Mike said, yeah, but Alan, you're not a typical TV viewer. You watch a lot of shows. So your patience for this is probably shorter than most people's.

And on the one hand, I think I was proven right because once they do get together, they're still really, really funny. The show doesn't like miss a beat. But on the other hand, like you say, Greg, the fact that they go through all these bumps and they go through all these problems

makes this moment when he kneels down, you know in the empty living room like it's so beautiful it really is and part of it's because of that journey that they had to take that is one of the greatest proposals that has ever been on television and again i know i'm biased but i if you if you're a big fan of the show you you have to feel the feels because she just turns and there he is. And she's like, what are you doing here? And we'll get there. We're going to get there. I'm jumping ahead. But in the moment, you don't know the

proposals coming if you were the first time viewer. But you know that they're going to be reunited. And here it is. I remember once I was watching Dawson's Creek. I'm a teen watching Dawson's Creek and I've watched six episodes. I'm like, Joey and Dawson's Creek. I'm a teen watching Dawson's Creek and I've watched six episodes. I'm like, Joey and Dawson, please get together, please.

And they finally get together and I'm so happy and I just can't wait to watch the show and revel in this relationship. And then like five or six episodes into the second season, they're broken up. And I remember being so mad. I was like, no, let me watch love and let me watch happiness together. And I feel that way here, which is you get so invested in these relationships

that in something we talked about in the room was, do you fall into the trap that works in TV writing, which is once your characters get together, you're watching an inevitable breakup. So many relationships start and stop and start and stop in television. And I don't know if there was a conscious choice, but there was definitely a discussion of, should we bring characters together, but instead keep them together? And maybe have episodes about the nuance of relationship and the weirdness of relationship and the depth of relationship rather than the break-up of relationship. And we pretty much stuck to that. I can't think of a major relationship in the show save season two, Mark and Anne, that got together and then ended and played all the drama of break-up.

I mean, I guess there's Anne and Chris, and that's just a weird thing overall where, you know, again, spoiling it, when they finally do get back together, it almost sort of like happens off screen more than anything else. But pretty much everybody else, they get together, they stay together,

they have an impromptu wedding. You know, that's something that the show did all the time, but really, really well each time. That's so funny. Oh my God, we talk about how the show has gifts, parties, and jobs all the time, but really, really well each time. That's so funny. Oh my God. We talk about how the show has gifts, parties, and jobs all the time. Yeah, it was like a tried and true trope.

I have not thought about the impromptu wedding, but that is a Parks and Rec experience. Yeah. There's at least three of them. Yeah. April and Andy, that was supposed just as a party, and then it turned into a wedding. Yeah, you're right.

Which, by the way, I physically cried during their wedding. I truly got so emotional because it just was so perfect. And watching Aubrey, for some reason, the whole thing just really hit me hard that day. And I was getting all emotional during that wedding scene. It's silly, but, you know, welcome to my world. It's beautiful. I want to speak about this B story that we have kicked off where Ron is going to help out with trick-or-treating with Diane's kids. And there's that great moment that Nick plays so well where the kids are fighting and his solution to the crown drama is to Solomon in a way. Or like, it's not like you each get half.

Now both of yours are broken. Situation solved. Yes. He's hating when she first comes in the office with those kids. But of course, Andy, that's his jam. He's got little girls screaming and yelling and playing. And so he's all into it. And then basically they're going to go trick or treating.

I can't imagine Ron dreading anything more than that. And yet he goes and does it. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't call out another great Ben Wyatt moment. So the Murray campaign is wrapped. Ben is fully expecting to go home to Leslie. He's caught off guard by Jen's new job offer

to help that businessman in Florida run for governor. And when Jen Barkley asked what he's going to do next, you know, he's just casually like, I was going to get a chicken parm and watch Blade Runner. And it's just something so lovely and pathetic about what Ben Wyatt thinks of as just like a nice night in. Also, chicken parm, it's not that far off from a calzone. Like the guy has certain taste buds.

It's just the nuance of Ben Wyatt. As we get to know him more and more, he's just more and more unique. I mean, how is someone as skinny as Adam eating that many carbs and that much cheese? I don't get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally.

You touched on something, Alan, that I also want to talk about. Having you as a guest in the writer's room was such a blast because, well, for me personally, at the time I tried to watch as much TV as possible and I always got a kick when you'd come in and would shoot the shit talking

about TV because I don't think anyone else was consuming as much as I was at the time. It definitely wasn't as much as you were, but it was a blast to talk TV with you. But I think it's unique to have someone from outside of the writer's room to come into this inner sanctum

in a way that's like this little den of comfort where you have to have in order to go to the creative space. But I think as Jim touched on in the beginning, because you were a supporter and fan of the series,

I remember you contributing. I remember you pitching sometimes because you were... Oh, that's awesome. I didn't know that. So having so much fun, I think, in this collaborative space. Yeah, it was always great to visit. And again, it's sort of, it's this tricky balance. I remember one time I was there and I spent the day there and we all had a nice time and it was the day

of an episode airing and it was like one of the rare episodes I didn't really think worked. And so that night, like my recap goes live. And I was told like the next day, everybody came and was like, what the hell's going on? Like he was here all day. He loves us. And then he says, this episode isn't good. And it's sort of, it's this,

it's this thing where I love the show overall. I really like the people. Like Mike ran a room with like good people in it. He runs productions without jerks. So that was great. And obviously there's a lot of enthusiasm there, but you still kind of have to give your opinion at the end of the day.

And fortunately moments like that were pretty rare. I love that you still gave your honest opinion. That's what your job is. And then that episode, whatever episode it was, you weren't as enthralled as the others. I think that's awesome that you did that. Right. I mean, I'm sure I was cursing you on set.

I'm not denying that. I'm just saying, I think that's really awesome that you would, you're like, hey, my job is to call it as I see it. And you still did, even though you had a great day. I mean, when I'm negative, I'm never trying to be like a jerk about it or trying to be mean.

But at the same time, like if I'm not giving an authentic opinion, then there's no point to me. Right. It's more of the way I look at it. And so I feel like people can tell same time like if i'm not giving an authentic opinion then what there's no point to me right more of the way agreed i look at it and so i i feel like people can tell that i'm being real and i'm not just sort of making things up to either get attention get clout or just suck up to people because i wouldn't want to do that that's great and were you in the writer's room to do an article or what was the why were you in the room i was to do an article or why were you in the room? I was in the room a few times.

At least once or twice I did an article. I was there when they were pitching ideas for End of the World, which is one of the best episodes of the show. And weirdly, they spent the entire time pitching the story of the, what's the cult, the Zorpies? Oh, yeah. We spent like all day talking about the Zorpies oh yeah we spent like all day talking about the Reasonableists and so I wrote a story about them pitching the Reasonableists plot and the thing everybody remembers from that episode

is the other thing with everyone's you know Andy going through his bucket list which did not come up once that day so I was definitely there a few times to do stories other times I would just you know sort of say to Mike hey you know I'm in town can I come by and I would and it was just nice to like, get a sense of how TV is made. Not only when people are working, but also the procrastination. And my God, there was a

lot of procrastination in that room. Yes, yes. There was a lot of procrastination. I mean, I would tell people that I think, you know, at least a third of a day was spent not writing. But I think that's actually a part of writing is not writing. I remember hearing Aaron Sorkin talk once that he takes like six showers a day because anything to reset your brain, anything to get out of the groove, to start fresh. And the procrastination in a writer's room is a way of starting fresh and starting over. All right. Procrastination in a writer's room is a way of starting fresh and starting over.

All right. So one time I was there and they asked you, Greg, to replay the Captain Jack Sparrow video from SNL like seven different times. Yeah. Yes. But you feel like that contributed ultimately to the writing process. Well, I think maybe, well, Alan, that's a good point. Maybe, well, Alan, that's a good point. Maybe at the time, at the time when I was a writer's assistant and my, you know, I got to go home when the rest of the writers went home and playing, you know, Captain Jack Sparrow a seventh time. Yeah, I think dinner's being ordered that night.

And I'm not happy about it. But when we would play Sporkle quizzes or play rock band, those are moments when you can see that like creative juices are kind of just being, but no, yeah, I'll give you that. I'm not trying to come at you. And I took several Sporkle quizzes when I was there as well. So it was always a good time. Well, let's continue on with this episode because we're coming to perhaps what is second most famous for, although in Jerry's life, perhaps one of the most significant moments of his life. Back at City Hall, Chris embraces the Halloween spirit by planning a screening of the 1986 horror camp classic Death Canoe 4, Murder at Blood Lake. Everyone is excited for the movie, except Leslie, who is despondent over Ben's new potential job offer.

To cheer Leslie up, Ann suggests that they hide outside the bathroom and scare Tom as he exits. But when the door opens, Jerry walks out instead of Tom, and the two women jump scare him by accident, leading to Jerry having a minor heart attack and a major discharge of flatulence. That's right. The man has a fart attack.

A major discharge of flatulence. A major discharge of flatulence is just a lovely way of saying a lot of farts. The guy had a fart attack. Jim, let's just jump right into it. You get the script. Yeah. One, did you know this was it. You get the script. Yeah. One, did you know this was coming before you got the script?

Two, talk to me about experiencing that script for the first time. Did not know it was coming. You know, before we would do a table read, I would get the script ahead of time. I just thought, oh my God, this is awesome. But because Amy, being who Amy is, she checked in with me after the table read, Jim, are you okay with this? Are you okay doing it? I go, are you kidding me? I live for stuff like this. This is absolutely what I live for. I loved it. Because, you know, first of all, you know, as one of, boy, at that point, 10 characters in a show, it's great when you get a moment, you know, because they're tough to come by. There's only 21 minutes and, you know, so whenever you get a moment, it's great.

But if you watch the scene carefully, I tried to go for no laughs. I wanted it. I pretty much played it dramatic. Like I remember laying on the, or sitting on the ground against the wall and looking at Rashida and I just kept thinking, they'll get the laughs here. I don't, I'm just really going to play this like a guy having a heart attack. So I don't know if it comes across like that, but I know that's where I was coming from. And so I loved everything about it. I just,

I loved the comments, you know, Tom coming out saying, you know, it's a dinosaur farting. And the thing that's so funny is it's legit, apparently, heart issues can lead to gastrointestinal distress. So it was a factual thing. It wasn't just a bit, you know, to get laughs because Jerry's farting. It's truly a thing that can happen during a heart attack. Now, can I ask a technical question, Jim, about that scene? Yes. I'm assuming you're not doing your own fart work.

Ellen, have you looked me up at all? scene. Yes. I'm assuming you're not doing your own fart work. So... Have you looked me up at all? That is what I'm known for. I went to the Royal Academy of Farting in London. This guy has a bachelor of farts. Alright, I would throw out my

question. No, no, no, it's valid. There was no real farting happening. What I was going to ask, though, is are they playing, like, in the room to create verisimilitude, or is that just entirely added in post, and people are reacting to silence? Reacting to silence, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I don't remember any actual farting going on. I mean, I might have snuck one out, but I don't think it was audible. Yeah. Because all day long, I sneak them out. But yeah, no, we were just reacting. Yeah.

We have this great quote that we grabbed from Mike Shore talking about the fart attack, where he says, I'm not kidding. We probably spent 10 to 12 person hours working on the farts, the sounds, the style, the amount, the volume. It was a very intensive work session. You only get to do a fart attack once. There's like a billion-dollar industry of just fart sound effects, and there's so much to choose from.

And he's right. Think about that. You only get to do a fart attack once is a sentence never said before. And I can tell you, out of all the episodes, this is one that is most brought up to me from the fans is the fart attack, you know, because it's just one of those classic moments. And even my sister, who's kind of a big prude, and she doesn't like any toilet humor. Oh, Jimmy, I don't like stuff like that. She actually thought it was hysterical. But, you know, I remember the writer's room debate. Every so often you have an idea for an episode and it goes through a nice, healthy debate.

And I think there was this moment like, okay, we're all just making sure we're going to do a fart attack. I know it cracks us up. I know the term makes us laugh a lot, but we are going to do this. We are going to build an episode around it. And I think, Jim, your commitment

to play it real really helped. I hope it did. That was truly, that was my thought. Like, the laughs will be around this. This will work if I play it real instead of trying to overdo whatever. And maybe it doesn't come across that way, but it's certainly how I tried to play it. We should call out some Parks Halloween costumes. Chris has dressed as his greatest fear, an old man.

Leslie is Rosie the Riveter. Anne is Olympic gymnast Gabby Douglas. Tom is a ghost, which, you know, I think is a bit surprising. You'd think he'd be something way more splashy. And Jerry doesn't dress up.

Yeah, that's a little odd when you think about it. Why didn't Jerry dress up? Yeah, he's big into holidays. I don't know. Yeah. I will say, though, like, Rosie the Riveter is a really good look for Amy. Like, that's just, yeah, that's excellent.

That's a great point, yes. Well, let's see what happens and jump back into the synopsis to see how Jerry does. Because full of regret for causing Jerry's condition, Leslie holds a garage sale to raise funds for Jerry's hospital bills, and everyone pitches in to help. Meanwhile, in Florida, Ben and Jennifer Barkley meet with their new potential client, Howard Kurzweiler, on his lavish yacht in Florida. Seeing the name Kurzweiler reminds me, and I've mentioned this before on the podcast, so apologies for listeners for my repeating. But Mike Shore's opinion that people's names are things like Kurtzweiler and Brendanowitz and weird, unique combinations of consonants and

vowels, not just like, you know, Smith and Stone and just these like classic, when you think of like a TV character name, it's stuff like that. That's why I think Leslie Knope came out of that same weird space. And this episode, doesn't it introduce Morris Lurp name, it's stuff like that. That's why I think Leslie Knope came out of that same weird space. And this episode, doesn't it introduce Morris Lurpus? That's a great point. It does introduce Morris Lurpus, played by writer Joe Mandy.

There's many Lurpuses. I wound up writing a whole story just about all the Lurpuses in Pawnee at some point towards the end. Because I think I'd written just so many other things about the show, I was running out of ideas. But also, like Mike, it amused me that they kept naming people on this show Lurpus who seemingly had nothing to do with one another.

Well, that's an entirely Mike Shore thing. Lurpus came to be, and he started adding the surname to characters that was completely unnecessary just to create this sprawling family of Lurpuses and punny. sprawling family of Lurpuses and Punny. And I think I've mentioned this also before that I once popped into the edit room to talk to Mike and Dean. And I saw, I'm pretty sure I saw Mike Shore editing Lurpus bios on IMDb about the characters. He did that.

I know he said he did that. Okay, good. Okay, great. So it's now been confirmed. So this episode, like I said, it's an interesting one because, you know, the first act is kind of stage setting for a fart attack. And then the fart attack happens, but it's happening to Jerry, not our main character, but Leslie's feeling bad about it. And she's doing something to try to make amends for it that will wind up kind of not really being part of our big third act reveal and moment. our big third act reveal and moment.

And so you have this classic just set piece of creating a garage sale to raise funds for Jerry's hospital bills. And we use the term killing field at Parks and Rec a lot. It's a killing field scene. It's an ability to create a set piece that's comedic in nature, in which everybody can have a different point of view. And those different point of views

can intersect in this interesting way in the middle. In this case, it's what people are willing to sell. It's a great classic comedy set piece. Yeah. And it's the springboard for Tom's next big adventure. Exactly. With Rent-A-Swag. Yeah. I got a question about the garage sale, which is something I've noticed when it aired and it about the garage sale, which is something I noticed when it aired and it comes up every time, which is Anne has the row of boyfriend boxes and there is not a Brandanowicz box. Yes, yes.

Was this discussed in the room? And in general, what like once, you know, he left the show, was Brandanowicz just kind of verboten or like what, was there a policy regarding Mark? There was no policy regarding Mark. I think that there was no verboten, there was no like, let's pretend this thing never happened kind of feeling. My personal take and my experience having been in the room for the run is that Chris and Ben showing up worked so well from minute one. And their

characters and the chemistry between Leslie and Ben was so great. And frankly, the chemistry between Chris and Anne was so great and interesting that there wasn't this need to pull from that well of the guy who's gone. That his storyline seemed to come to a pretty natural conclusion and there were no loose ends with characters whatsoever. That we were on our momentum. And the other thing I was thinking about, most network TV has 22 episodes a year. Season two of Parks and Rec had 24 episodes.

And then we shot the first six episodes of season three tagged onto that, remember, Jim? We did 30 episodes in a row. And I think that's actually an answer to your question, Alan. Because we did 30 episodes in a row, we were just so focused, I think, on moving forward, getting these characters in, pushing story forward, that Mark kind of falls away very naturally.

He kind of falls away from the writer's point of view because we couldn't focus on him. To the point that here we are in season five, the fifth episode in, and you'd think this would be a great opportunity just to have a prop reference to it. And he's just not even thought of. But it kind of might've been cool

to have a Mark Brindanowitz box. Yeah. I'm not sure what it would be in it because, you know, Mark was not like, doesn't have a really distinct trait in the way that like Andy and Chris do. So it would just be like

khakis and a button down. Yeah. Alan, let me ask you something because the listeners of the podcast have heard me say this because I get so cringed out about it. What was your thought about Anne and Tom dating? agree to do it. And so there was some, you know, there's some willing suspension of disbelief about it. But like once Adam came in, he was now the straight man for Leslie a lot of the time. And so they weren't always necessarily sure of what to do with Anne. And so putting her into that relationship, that was good for Rashida. And it was a nice combination, even if I didn't necessarily

find it plausible, is what I would say. You know, speaking of Anne dating then, let's talk about this moment where Leslie calls an audible to auction off Anne. Right? It's like this date-raising moment. It's hilarious. It's a symptom of the kind of the mental break she's having over, right? Over the possibility of Ben taking a job in Florida. She keeps talking about having to do these things for Jerry's future.

But when it was clear, she's kind of talking about herself. Her own. Right. And it's that kind of thing where the story, again, is kind of this emotional journey more than this plot journey for our main character.

But I think Rashida's reaction and the comedy given to Rashida in this moment is so funny. Anne is so funny. There's a bit of audacity like, Leslie, are you really going to do this? But then she kind of owns it. And there's moments where we find where Anne can be fully herself

and not the straight man to Leslie, as you made a great point, Alan, were some of her best stuff in the Ben years. And also, the guy who wins the auction, the creepy pawn shop guy, Herman Lurpus. Another Lurpus. It's a double Lurpus episode.

Yes, yes. You're right. I think at the time, unintentionally, double Lurpuses. Right? But it is so funny at the beginning of the auction, because she's, no, no, no. And then the hot dude stands up, and she's like, oh, okay, I guess we could do this.

And then kind of another hot dude's like, yeah. And then the hot dude stands up and she's like, oh, okay, I guess we could do this. And then kind of another hot dude's like, yeah. And then the crazo shows up. Then Anne's like, I'm the hell out of here. Yeah, no, when Rashida was given those comedy moments, I mean, you guys talked about practice date much earlier. Like she's so funny in that one. It's just, there was not often the space, you know, allowed for that character to do that.

But whenever they gave her bits like this, she's really terrific. Right, right. And we just did an episode just before this in Sex Education where Leslie and Anne kind of go a little more head to head. And that was also so fun for me to see. And that's the other version of the comedy that really got me with when she would go head to head with Leslie and have a different point of view. And there'd be some friction between these two characters who generally only want the best for each other and don't want to cause friction. Greg, you talked about how, like, at a certain point, the garage sale turns into less about Leslie feeling guilty for what she did to Jerry and more her dealing with her anxiety about Ben going away and her future being destroyed. to Jerry and more her dealing with her anxiety about Ben going away and her future being destroyed.

And the show does a lot of stories like that, where it's Leslie is hung up on a thing about one aspect of her life, and then she gets obsessively into trying to overcorrect for that in another aspect of her life. And there are some times I think where maybe it goes a little too far, and she's not being a jerk, but she's being more difficult than I want my Leslie Knope to be. This is a really good balance of that, because she is ultimately

helping out Jerry and dealing with the terrible Pawnee government healthcare policy. But she's also putting Ann up for auction and all of this other stuff, just because she can't let go of the fear that Ben might not come back. Right.

You mentioned the policy for Pawnee. Leslie goes, honestly, the Pawnee municipal employee health care plan is kind of crappy. One time I sprained my wrist and our insurance claimed that having a wrist was a pre-existing condition. Yeah, that's a crappy insurance. So, yes, Jerry is going to owe a lot of money if that's the case. Oh, gosh. Poor Jerry. Yeah, poor Jerry. This is the episode where we witnessed the origin story for Rent-A-Swag.

This great, you know, multi-season storyline scene for Tom. It's going to be Pawnee's only teen clothing rental service where parents can rent kids' clothing from a huge wardrobe of, quote, the dopest shirts, the swankiest jackets, the slickest cardigans, the flashiest fedoras, the hottest ties, the snazziest canes, and more. To me, just as an observer of the show and lover of the show, this was my favorite of the Tom business ventures.

Like, we're going to have a lovely run in the later seasons with Bistro, but this one was, it felt like the most Tom. Like, it fit his character, this character that we've seen built out over four or five years now. It's going to wind up introducing

a great side character soon with Mona Lisa Saperstein. And so knowing where it's going to go, watching the origin of it, it felt very great. I actually was rooting for, I can't believe I was rooting for Tom in this moment. This guy who just has these terrible ideas.

I'm like, yes, this might be the one, buddy. No, it's very satisfying to see him figure that out in the moment. Like, oh, I can rent it. Oh, this is a thing. As opposed to whatever the hell he and John Ralphio were doing with Entertainment 720. Yeah. And a bit ahead of his time. There's so many clothing rental services now, I think, that time was on to something.

Much like Treat Yourself, this is an idea you guys should have found a way to trademark or get a patent on. Yeah, really. Because the residuals would still be rolling in after all these years. Yeah. Treat Yourself and Galentine's Day, perhaps, are two of the greatest Parks and Rec moments. Absolutely. Let's keep moving because we have quite a moment coming up. With the underwhelming garage sale profits in hand, Leslie goes to visit Jerry in the

hospital where he tells her it's not about what you have, but who you're with that will make you happy. Meanwhile, after a pep talk from April, Ron smooths things out with Diane. And although it's a week after Halloween, he, Diane, and her kids go out trick-or-treating for a second time. So cute. And convinced that Ben is planning to take the job in Florida, Leslie returns to the house she was planning to rent to find some closure and is blown away when Ben shows up and proposes.

Yeah, so much happened. This scene, Jim, you talk about it, is so lovely. Oh, lovely. And so sweet and so real. It does this thing that good film and TV does where you forget. You forget you're watching something scripted. You forget you're watching actors. And I remember watching it, and I've seen this scene so many times,

and you get goosebumps each time, right? And their chemistry is so good, and the journey for these two characters is so sweet and lovely, and you're so root for people on this show, I think, that this scene, it's one of the great proposal scenes. It's one of the great relationship moments in the show, I think. I think it's one of the great in all proposals of television. I really do. And I know the actors, Amy and Adam I think it's one of the great in all proposals of television. I really do. And I know the actors, Amy and Adam, kept away from each other all day until they shot that scene. Really? They really did. Yes. They kept their distance and they really wanted to, you know, just take some space as actors so that when they came together, that would be what we

would get. And I think every second of it works. The stopping of the proposal, the moment, no, still not ready, still not ready to the actual proposal. I think every second is perfect. What I love is, I mean, all of it's great, but like Leslie's reaction when she realizes what he's doing and her like saying, wait, like I want to remember every moment of this when my life was just perfect or whatever the line is. What's awesome to me is when you have somebody like Amy who like really did not have dramatic training. Like she, you know, went to college, started doing improv right away

and yet is able to be like that authentic and that overwhelmed and that emotional to the point where, as you guys said, like you forget you're watching actors. You feel like you're in a moment seeing this woman have the happiest thing that's ever happened to her. Like, that's extraordinary that she's able to, like, capture that in that way. That's a great point. Yeah, Amy is the real deal, actor-wise.

Yes, yes. She really, and, you know, they say comedic actors do some of the best dramatic work. You know, everyone's an individual. But, my God, she brought it. Oh, both of them did. Both of them brought it. And it has that really cute and real moment at the end that I also love where, you know, they're so overwhelmed

and she says, you know, they kiss and they're whatever. And then he finishes the proposal, marry me. And she's like, oh, yes, yes. And so simple. Yeah, so simple, but also still played for real and i think in a way it's kind of like the b side to what you're talking about jim with the fart attack yeah uh which is this you know moments like this have to be played for real this was a just a moment between two people yeah and it happened to be on a comedy series, and it

happens to have jokes, but it's played in that way that Greg Daniels talked about The Office, which was he had four words to talk about when you'd make The Office early days, which was small, real, relatable, and observational. And if you had that as your marching order, you would ultimately

create this window into this world and this mockumentary that was going to be so fun. And this felt very much like that. It was small, real, relatable, and observational. It felt like just real people. Those real people just happened to be Leslie Knope and Ben Wyatt. And the fact that the show can have both of those moments in the same episode and have them feel like part of the same universe and part of the same tone. It's really special. I was writing something this morning about The Sopranos because I apparently can never, ever stop writing about The Sopranos. And I've got a line in there like, you know,

it's got like a deep, dark examination of the human psyche. And it also has fart jokes. And I'm not saying Parks and Rec and The Sopranos are exactly the same. They do have a certain degree of versatility in common. Yes, yes. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Well, we've come to the end of a great episode of Parks and Recreation. The fart attack, the proposal, both heard around the world. And Jim, it wouldn't be an episode about a fart attack if we didn't do some of your crap.

And Alan, you're witnessing perhaps some of the best stuff we have on this show. It's Jim's crap. It's the stuff we didn't get to. Yeah, let me just call some things out. I have to call out my girl, Retta. Donna, she has some really funny moments

in this because of the tweeting. And first, by the way, that is her life. You know, she is the Instagram queen in real life. But when Donna says, I hope no one minds if I live tweet this bitch, I'm sorry, that makes me laugh.

And then she screams when the movie's playing, get your foot out of the water, dumbass. It's Blood Lake. Just brilliant. And then Leslie is having this lovely moment with Jerry. I mean, really lovely. And then she's embarrassed because they didn't raise enough money.

And Jerry's like, oh, it's going to be okay. And she's like, no, it's not even close to what you need. With all of your bills and the inevitable follow-up of problems and the lifetime of chronic misery that awaits you. That is a terrible sentence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is so awful. And yet, and how wrong was she?

Yeah. She was very wrong. Very wrong. Jerry did not have a life of inevitable blah, blah, blah. The best life. The greatest life. The greatest life.

Yeah. I think so, too. I think so, too. So, yeah, that's some of the crap I didn't get there. That's some juicy crap and we appreciate it, Jim.

Thank you. I want to call out our gifts, parties, and jobs for the episode. We have an engagement ring, one of the ultimate gifts. Ben turns down the Florida job. So he's offered a job, turns it down.

Chris throws a Halloween movie screening. I think it counts as a party, right? It counts as a party. And Rent a Swag, a new job created, a new idea created by Tom Haverford. Episode MVP. We've come to our most valuable pun.

It's our character moment in the episode that sticks out the most to you and why. And I think I'll toss it to our guests. Mr. Steppenwolf first. I mean, I don't want to disrespect my co-host, Jim, here. No, I understand where you're going. It's not the fart attack. I get it. It's the proposal.

I mean, it's Amy and Adam as the MVPs. That's one of the all-time great moments in the show. 100%. Yes. If there was a B MVP, I might throw it to Jerry. But other than that, it's absolutely the two of them.

100% agree. Yes. Yeah, I'll just echo and say ditto. It is a great, great, great moment. It's easy. Well, I'll just echo and say ditto. It is a great, great, great moment. It's easy. Well, Alan, it has been an absolute pleasure having you here. It's been fascinating. I love talking about your time visiting the show to just the whole experience of being an avid watcher, reviewer of the series. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Guys, it was my absolute pleasure. Anytime you want me on the podcast, on a street corner, whatever, to discuss Parks and Rec, I will be there. Alan, after every episode, I went to see what you said about it because I so respected your thoughts.

And so this has been just really exciting for me. This means a lot, Jim. Thank you. That's very kind of you to say. Well, thank you all for listening. Text this episode to your group chat. Start group chats to text it to those group chats. Five-star reviews wherever you're listening.

Thanks again to our amazing guest, Alan Sepinwall. Thanks to Engineer Joe, our producer, Lisa. Jim, always a pleasure. And from all of us here at Parks and Recollection, goodbye from Pondy. Bye-bye! Parks and Recollection is produced by me, Lisa Berm, and engineered by

Joanna Samuel. The podcast is executive produced by Jeff Ross, Adam Sachs, Colin Anderson, and Nick Liao. Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Brit Kahn are our talent bookers, along with assistance from Maddie Ogden. Our theme song is by Mouse Rat,

a.k.a. Mark Rivers, with additional tracks composed by John Danek. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time on Parks and Recollection. This has been a Team Coco production.