Pints With Aquinas - 38: Can I know for sure whether I'm in the state of grace?

Starting point is 00:00:00 If Pints with Aquinas has helped you and you'd like to support the show, well, you can now do that. Go to pintswithaquinas.com and click the big Patreon banner up the top. By supporting the show, even for as little as $2 a month, which amounts to 50 cents an episode, you'll get some neat thank you gifts. you'll get some neat thank you gifts. Gifts include things like a free Pints with Aquinas sticker posted to your front door, access to an ever-growing library of exclusive in-depth interviews between me and philosophers, converts and apologists, a new e-book that I've written on Aquinas' metaphysical jargon,

Starting point is 00:00:41 and another one of the gifts is perhaps me interviewing you for Pints with Aquinas. Look, there's other gifts as well. I won't go into them all here. And the thing is, I know that people don't support the show just to get a sticker or an ebook or more audio content. People support the show because they actually appreciate it. And I appreciate you appreciating it. I don't want this show just to continue. I want it to go from good to great, and I'm honored by your support. Again, go to pintswithaquinas.com and click the Patreon banner to learn more. Welcome to Pints with Aquinas, episode 38. I'm Matt Fradd. If you could sit down with

Starting point is 00:01:21 St. Thomas Aquinas over a pint of beer and ask him any one question, what would it be? In today's episode, I'll ask St. Thomas the question, can I know for sure whether or not I'm in the state of grace? Thank you for joining us in this brand spanking new year, hey, 2017. Pretty exciting. In case this is your first time listening, this is the show where you and I pull up a bar stall next to the angelic doctor and discuss theology and philosophy. Now, I don't know where you're listening to this podcast from, but I've got to give a shout-out to all of the young adult Catholics at the SEEK 2017 conference here in San Antonio.

Starting point is 00:02:22 They reckon, I don't know if this is true or not, but they reckon they're going to get about 15,000. That's like the size of my town. Shout out Port Pirie, South Australia. Hey, I miss you. But that's ridiculous. Anyway, guys, I will be at the SEEK conference, well, probably tomorrow and then all day Thursday. I'll be giving a couple of talks there. So, if you're at the Sikh conference, be sure to come and say hi. I'll make sure that I've got some pints with Aquinas stickers on me, and if you're really nice, I'll give you one. Anyway, today, we're going to be talking about a very important topic.

Starting point is 00:02:59 Can I know for sure whether or not I'm in the state of grace? know for sure whether or not I'm in the state of grace. Now, this is a really personal question to me because it's something that I've struggled with in the past, a tremendous deal. My wife and I lived in Ireland shortly after we got married, and it was there that I started to really have doubts about my salvation. I constantly felt like I was offending God. This was the kind of image that came to my mind. It was like I was walking through God's pristine palace, right, as it were. And I would look around and I would see these like muddy, disgusting footprints that were obviously mine. And at any moment, God would notice and throw me out. What I'm describing is sometimes called scrupulosity. And scrupulosity is where you think that things that may not even be sinful are sins and sins that might just be slight sins or, you know,

Starting point is 00:04:07 sins out of habit or that weren't really in your control or things like that are mortal sins, grave sins. But I have to say, thanks be to God, there are three things that really helped me overcome scrupulosity. And those three things were the sixth session at the Council of Trent. I'll quote from that later on. Also, Therese of Lisieux and what she had to say about our confidence in God and His mercy. And finally, my very good and holy spiritual director, Father, well, actually now bishop, Scott McCaig, with the Companions of the Cross up in Canada. But anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself a little bit here. When we talk about this question, can we know that we're in a state of grace?

Starting point is 00:04:59 Basically, if we're not in a state of grace and we die, then we will not be saved. So, we have to be in a state of grace in order to be saved. Now, some Catholics, well, I should say most Catholics, if they know their theology well, they're going to tell you that, you know, unless you've been given a direct private revelation from God that you can't have that sort of certainty. Most Protestants would say you ought to have that certainty. And they'll point to verses like 1 John 5, verse 13, where St. John says, you know, I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. All right. And so, I remember for me, like, I was really struggling with the temptation to leave the Catholic faith. I don't think it ever got that

Starting point is 00:05:51 serious that I began reaching out to people, but it was this inner turmoil because I would look at my Protestant friends and they were like, yeah, man, like, I'm saved. I know I'm saved. I'm confident in my salvation. I don't know if it's a fact that I'm saved. But then I would, you know, look to the scriptures and I would see other things, you know, like work out your, you know, faith with fear and trembling, you know. And that sort of thing. Or I'm thinking of St. Paul, you know, who talks about he's not even going to judge himself when it comes to salvation, but he'll leave that to the Lord. And so, you know, I liked the idea of knowing for certain that I'd be saved. going to judge himself when it comes to salvation, but he'll leave that to the Lord. And so,

Starting point is 00:06:28 you know, I liked the idea of knowing for certain that I'd be saved. And I kind of envied my Protestant friends who thought they had that knowledge, but I didn't know what to think about it. So anyway, today, let's read a little bit from St. Thomas Aquinas. And this is from the Summa Theologica, first part of the second part, question 112, article 5. Here it is, guys. Whether man can know that he has grace. First of all, this very first sentence that Aquinas lays out is the very reason you and I love Aquinas. Check it out. He says this. There are three ways of knowing a thing.

Starting point is 00:07:12 Ah, isn't that beautiful? In a world of so much ambiguity and confusion, it's like, just give me some bullet points. And here's what he does. There are three ways of knowing a thing. And here's what he does. There are three ways of knowing a thing. First, by revelation, and thus anyone might know that he has grace. For God, by a special providence, reveals this at times to some.

Starting point is 00:07:41 Secondly, a man may of himself know something and with certainty. And in this way, no one can know that he has grace. And hence, man cannot judge with certainty that he has grace. According to 1 Corinthians 4, verses 3-4, but neither do I judge my own self, but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Thirdly, things are known conjecturally by signs, and thus anyone may know that he has grace when he is conscious of delighting in God and of despising worldly things, and inasmuch as a man is not conscious of any mortal sin. Yet this knowledge is imperfect. Hence the apostle says, and this comes from 1 Corinthians 4.4, kind of picking up from earlier on where St. Paul said he doesn't judge himself.

Starting point is 00:08:46 from earlier on where St. Paul said he doesn't judge himself. He says, I'm not conscious to myself of anything, yet am I not hereby justified. And Aquinas goes on, since according to Psalm 28, 13, who can understand sins from my secret sins? Cleanse me, O Lord. All right, so that'll do for now. So, there are three ways we can know something as it pertains to our salvation. One is from a direct revelation from God. If you get a direct revelation from God, then you can know with certainty that you will be saved. Secondly, we can know things with certainty, just in and of ourself and in our own efforts and that sort of thing. And Aquinas says, no, you can't know that. You cannot know with certainty that you will be saved. And there's another way we can know things, you know, conjecture, right?

Starting point is 00:09:37 Like a fallible judgment. But that doesn't mean a judgment that doesn't have any bearing. It can be like a moral certainty, not a sort of absolute certainty. And he says, by that, if you want to talk about it in that sense, then yes, we can know that we're in a state of grace. I think it's important that Catholics especially realize that in the Council of Trent, as they were responding to some of these Protestant errors that had to do with not losing our salvation, knowing with, you know, infallible certainty that one will be saved. The church didn't do away with every, you know, way of knowing that we're saved. It didn't say there's, you can't know in any sense of that word,

Starting point is 00:10:22 you can't have any of that kind of confidence. Didn't say that at all. In fact, let me read it to you. This is from the sixth session at the Council of Trent, chapter 12. Okay. That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of predestination is to be avoided. And it says, no one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume, as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate, as if it were true that he that is justified either cannot sin anymore,

Starting point is 00:11:14 or if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance. For, and here's the exception that the church will give, for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto himself. So, in other words, we can't say either A, I will never fall from this state of grace that I know that I'm in, or B, even if I do fall, I am certain that I will repent before the end. Now, here's a really interesting book. I'm holding it in my hand here. It's definitely, if you are a kind of Catholic geek like me, you'll probably find this interesting.

Starting point is 00:11:58 You may even have it. It's called Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. And the subtitle is a one-volume encyclopedia of the doctrines of the Catholic Church showing their sources in scripture and tradition and their definitions by popes and councils. How's that for a subtitle? Anyway, here's what it says, essentially reiterating what it says at the Council of Trent in regards to this uncertainty, okay? So, it says, the reason for this uncertainty of the state of grace lies in this, that without a special revelation, nobody can, with certainty of faith faith know whether or not he has fulfilled all the conditions which are necessary for the achieving of justification the impossibility of the certainty of faith

Starting point is 00:12:55 however now please listen to this okay he says by no means excludes a high moral certainty supported by the testimony of conscience. Okay? So, as Catholics, as Bible-believing Christians, we don't believe, because we don't believe that the Bible teaches it, that we can know infallibly whether or not we will be saved. But, says Ott, the impossibility of this certainty by no means excludes a high moral certainty supported by the testimony of conscience. That's from page 262 of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, put out by 10 books, if you're interested where that is. That brought so much relief to my soul. So many things to say here. So, what are we going to do for the rest of this podcast? I want to talk a little bit about my personal experience. And then I'd like to close by sharing

Starting point is 00:14:05 with you some scriptures that clearly show, I think, that we cannot have this infallible certainty. And then I'll show some scriptures and show some quotes from the saints that show that we can have this high degree of moral certainty. That's for the rest of this podcast. So, yeah, I mean, I remember just like freaking out all the time that I'm always sinning, I'm going to go to hell, blah, blah, blah. And what I didn't realize this whole time is this, I actually don't know my Catholic faith very well. Like if I knew my Catholic faith, if I read these documents from the Council of Trent, if I read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, if I read Ludwig Ott, and of course, most people aren't reading these things, but at least I'm listening to Catholics who know their stuff, I would have known that I

Starting point is 00:14:55 can have a high degree of moral certainty that I'm in a state of grace, and therefore, if I were to die in that moment, would be saved. And in fact, when you think about it, every time, if you're a Catholic listening to me, every time you and I receive the Eucharist, we are judging that we are in a state of grace. In other words, we're judging that if we were to die in that moment, we would be saved. That we haven't rejected the salvation that Christ won for us, which was then applied to us through the sacrament of baptism. And if we subsequently lost that salvation, it was that grace was, so to speak, resurrected through the sacrament of confession. Okay. But every time we go to Holy Communion, we're essentially saying, I know I'm in a state of grace. And this gave me a tremendous confidence. As my spiritual director put it,

Starting point is 00:16:01 he said, Matthew, you know, when you come to Christ, when you accept his salvation, you are standing on a mountain, okay? Right? And this mountain is not easy to slip off of. In fact, you can't slip off of it. If you want to throw yourself off of this mountain, you can, but that takes a free, deliberate, conscious choice. And of course, what he's referring to is mortal sin, but that isn't something that we slip into. All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back with those scripture verses and saint quotes I said we'd look at. My name is Gomer and I'm the co-host of Catching Foxes. Foxes.

Starting point is 00:16:48 Foxes. Foxes. Catching Foxes. Foxes. I would like to tell you about something more important than my podcast. What? Pints with Aquinas. Pint, pint, p-p-p-p-pints with Aquinas.

Starting point is 00:17:00 Matt Fradd actually wrote a book on 50-plus deep thoughts from the angelic doctor. Pints with Aquinas. Here's the deal. Beer is easily lovable, but medieval monastic philosophers, they can be quite intimidating. Yet in this short, pithy book, and I don't use that word often. In fact, I never use the word pithy. But I'm going to use it here, and you're going to agree with me. Matt Fradd made the greatest mind in the history of the church as easily

Starting point is 00:17:25 accessible as your favorite beer. You'll laugh, you'll cry, well, you won't cry, but you'll laugh, and you'll discover that this old-school philosopher's wisdom is just as relevant today as it was back then. So do yourself a favor. Get a copy of this enlightening, pithy little book from Amazon

Starting point is 00:17:41 right now, and when it arrives, pour yourself a frothy pint and dig in. You'll be glad you did. Okay, welcome back. Let's take a look at some verses that are often put forward to show that we can have an absolute assurance of our salvation and show why they really don't show that. And then I'd like to look at about two or three quotations that will remind us of the proper confidence we ought to have in God and, you know, His desire to save us. So, in the beginning, I mentioned, you know, just in passing, here it is here, 1 John 5, verses 13 through 15. And St. John says, I write this to you who

Starting point is 00:18:29 believe in the name of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. And so, someone might say to us, look, he didn't say so that you might guess or that you might, you know, he says, no, you'll know you have eternal life. But you'll remember Aquinas says that there are three ways that we can know something. You remember? And one of those ways was having this conjecture, right? This fallible, but nonetheless confident belief. And this is what John is talking about. He's not talking about knowledge in the strict, infallible, metaphysical sense. He's talking about confidence. And in fact, if you go on to read verse 14, you can see that he might be making this point.

Starting point is 00:19:19 And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And we know that He hears us in whatever we ask. We know that we have obtained the requests made of Him. And so, there's a parallel example that follows right on the heels of that first line we mentioned. You know, when we pray to God and ask that He will bless us with some particular gift, we can have a confidence that He will bless us with it, but it's not an infallible assurance, okay? So, again, whenever someone cites Scripture to us, as Catholics, of course, we're going to say, amen, amen, but how do we understand it? Okay. So, all right, let's look at another one here. John chapter 10, verse 28,

Starting point is 00:20:13 our blessed Lord says, and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. And again, as Catholics, we ought to say, amen, amen, right? That we are saved, right? Through coming into a relationship with Jesus Christ, right? Through baptism, right? He gives us eternal life, okay? And no one can snatch us from that, you know, no height, no depth, no demon, no sins of others, nothing can snatch us out of His hand. But this does not mean that we cannot jump, you know, pry open His hands and jump from it. So, it's not as if that just because we've received the salvation Christ won for us that we therefore can no longer choose to reject that salvation. So, yes, amen, it's true. Nothing can snatch us from this salvation won for us, and yet that doesn't

Starting point is 00:21:19 mean that we can't reject it. Let's look at Romans 8, verses 1. It says, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So, again, okay, forgive me for repeating myself, but as Catholics, we ought to say amen. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. But we can be in the grace of God in Christ Jesus, if you will, and willingly choose to remove ourselves from that grace. That's what this whole podcast has been about. But if we are in Christ Jesus, if we are in the grace of God, of course, amen, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. But again, if you just read a little further, you'll see the whole thing in context, okay?

Starting point is 00:22:21 Paul says, for the law of the spirit of life in Christ, Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death for God has done what the law weakened, but the flesh could not do sending his own son, the likeness of sinful flesh. And for sin, he condemns it in the flesh in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. And here in verse 5, he says, for those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit set their minds on the things of the spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the spirit is life and peace.

Starting point is 00:23:07 but to set the mind on the spirit is life and peace. Let's go down here a little bit. Let's look at verse 12. Okay. He says, so then brethren, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die. But if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Okay. So, yeah, there's no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, but that does not mean we can choose to cease to do good and to focus on fleshly, worldly things and expect to remain in that grace of God. Let's look at Galatians chapter 6 verse 7 through 9 and Paul makes the same point. Here he says, do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption,

Starting point is 00:24:03 but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. So, just a few verses there to show that the verses that are often put forward to show that one cannot lose one's salvation, you know, just don't teach that. And this actually isn't something that was believed until the time of, you know, Martin Luther, all right? It's always been understood in the history of the church and the majority of Christendom today, you know, Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, etc. And many Protestants too, we should say, that people can lose their salvation. But of course, the point of this podcast wasn't just

Starting point is 00:24:53 to show that you and I can lose our salvation, but that we can also have, again, going back to what Ludwig Ott said, a high degree of moral certainty in the salvation that we do have. So, would it be okay if I just closed this podcast by reading a couple of quotations that I think, actually, no, I don't think, I know, although there are three ways to know something, so I guess it's in the same thing as I know that I'm going to say of grace way, sense. same thing as I know that I'm going to say of grace. Way, sense. I know that they will bless you. Okay. Especially if you're struggling with scrupulosity, which I need to say, okay, scrupulosity isn't a cross the Lord's calling you to carry. It's a scourge. You know, he invites you to renounce. All right. So, this first quotation comes from Father Jean C.J. d'Elbe, and this is

Starting point is 00:25:49 from his book, I Believe in Love. It's a beautiful book. It's a retreat based on the teachings of St. Therese of Lisieux. So, if you're struggling with the idea that God is looking for a reason to throw you into hell, please listen to this. I assure you, we are bathed in love and mercy. We each have a father, a brother, a friend, a spouse of our soul, center and king of our hearts, redeemer and savior, bent down over us over our weakness and our impotence like that of little children with an inexpressible gentleness watching over us like the apple of his eye who said i will have mercy and not sacrifice a jesus haunted by the desire to save us by all means, who has opened heaven under our feet. And we live too often like orphans, like abandoned children, as if it were hell which had opened under our feet. We are men of little faith. End quote.

Starting point is 00:27:09 Here's something from Therese of Lisieux. You remember, I said that she was one of the three things, the three sources that helped me, you know, rebuke and overcome the scrupulosity. And this is from her autobiography, I Believe in Love. Oh, not I Believe in Love. Sorry, that was the book I just quoted. Story of a Soul. Story of a Soul. And she's basically, here's the deal. She's laying on her deathbed, and the sisters are essentially saying to her, you know, it's no wonder you're so confident of heaven. We don't think you've ever committed a mortal sin in your life. Listen to what she says. It is not because I have been preserved from mortal sin that I go to God with confidence and love. Even if I had on my conscience all the crimes that one could commit, I am sure I would lose nothing of my confidence.

Starting point is 00:27:59 I would throw myself, my heart broken with sorrow, into the arms of my Savior. I know how much he loves the prodigal son. I've heard his words to Mary Magdalene, to the woman taken in adultery, to the Samaritan woman. No, there is no one who could frighten me, for I know too well what to believe about his mercy, about his love. I know that in the twinkling of an eye, all those thousands of sins would be consumed as a drop of water cast into a blazing fire. End quote. And let me just wrap up with this final quotation from St. Claude de la Colomiere, who in a prayer to God says the following, I glorify you in making known how good you are towards sinners and that your mercy prevails over all malice, that nothing can destroy it, that no matter how many times or how shamefully

Starting point is 00:28:58 we fall or how criminally, a sinner need never be driven to despair of your pardon. It is in vain that your enemy in mind sets new traps for me every day. He will make me lose everything else but for the hope that I have in your mercy. End quote. Praise you, Lord Jesus Christ. Glory to Jesus Christ now and forever. Thank you very much for listening. Happy New Year to you, my brothers and sisters. Hey, listen, if you're new to the podcast, we have a wealth of episodes behind this one, which you have to check out. Well, you don't have to, but I think you should. I think you'll like them. I think you'll benefit from them greatly. Do me a favor, would you please review Pints

Starting point is 00:29:41 with Aquinas on iTunes? It's really simple to do. It's just a couple of clicks. So it doesn't take much time for you, but it does mean a lot to me. I get to read all of the reviews, and it's really nice to have your support that way. And again, like I mentioned at the start of this podcast, if you happen to be at Seek for the next couple of days, send me a tweet or something, and I'll let you know where I am, and maybe we can catch up and talk all things Aquinas. Until next week, God bless you.

Starting point is 00:30:08 My whole life to carry you, to carry you. And I would give my whole life to carry you, to carry you. And I would give my whole life

Pints With Aquinas - 38: Can I know for sure whether I'm in the state of grace?

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