Planet Money - The veteran loan calamity

Episode Date: November 1, 2024

Ray and Becky Queen live in rural Oklahoma with their kids (and chickens). The Queens were able to buy that home with a VA loan because of Ray's service in the Army. During COVID, the Queens – like millions of other Americans – needed help from emergency forbearance. They were told they could pause home payments for up to a year and then pick up again making affordable mortgage payments with no problems.That's what happened for most American homeowners who took forbearance. But not for tens of thousands of military veterans like Ray Queen.On today's show, we follow two reporters' journey to figure out what went wrong with the VA's loan forbearance program. How did something meant to help vets keep their houses during COVID end up stranding tens of thousands of them on the brink of foreclosure? And, once the error was spotted, did the government do enough to make things right?Today's episode was produced by James Sneed. It was edited by Meg Cramer. And fact-checked by Dania Suleman. Engineering by Cena Loffredo. Alex Goldmark is Planet Money's executive producer.Help support Planet Money and hear our bonus episodes by subscribing to Planet Money+ in Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org/planetmoney.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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Yeah, it's nice. Picture a Jeep bouncing along a dirt road in rural Oklahoma. Is that their house? What does it say? It's on the right or the left? I think it's on the left. These are two of my colleagues, NPR reporters Quill Lawrence and Chris Arnold,

and they're pulling up to a house. Is that right? I think that's right, yeah. Kind of the house, really, that's been at the center of this astonishing and frankly pretty bizarre problem that has been unfolding over the last couple years. They get out of the car, microphones recording of course.

How are you doing? I'm doing good, how are you? Good. Good. Just, you know. We apologize if you guys put microphones in your face. No, it's fine. They're greeted by the homeowners, Ray and Becky Queen.

Ray served in the army in Iraq. You got Arabic on your wrist. It was done in Iraq. Oh, yeah. A buddy of mine bought a tattoo machine. On the phone. Yeah. Where were you?

Liberty. Oh, OK. That's where we were based. The Liberty Victory Complex. That nonsense. Yeah. That nonsense. When Chris first met Ray and Becky Queen, they were about to lose their house because,

somewhere in some governmental office, a decision was made about how to help veterans keep their homes during COVID, and it had gone catastrophically wrong. I didn't want to talk to you in the first place, I'm going to be honest with you. That's just not my thing. When you told me how many people this affected, it made me feel a lot better about being, about wanting to get this fixed. Hello and welcome to Planet Money.

I'm Kenny Malone. Today on the show, we ride along with our colleagues at NPR as they uncover a single change to some wonky mortgage terms that not many people were paying attention to. The result of that change, tens of thousands of veterans were about to lose their homes because of a policy meant to help keep them in those homes. teams instantly create and revise drafts in just one click, all without leaving the page they're on. Join the 70,000 teams and 30 million people who use Grammarly to move work forward. Go to grammarly.com slash enterprise to learn more.

Grammarly, enterprise ready AI. Hey, it's Aisha Harris from Pop Culture Happy Hour. If you love NPR podcasts, you'll want the new NPR Plus podcast bundle. Enjoy an all-you-can-e eat selection of NPR Plus podcasts with sponsor free listening and bonus episodes. Plus you'll be supporting public radio. Check it out at plus.npr.org. Let's make sure everyone is rolling.

Rolling. Rolling. And the AG in Maryland is texting me about something. This is the most Chris Arnold way to start an interview. Oh, I'm sorry. The attorney general in another state is texting me about something else. Chris Arnold is a reporter for NPR's investigations team.

He has been on the show many times before. And this particular story starts when Chris got a call from a lawyer. The lawyer, she was like, look, I got a call from this guy and I don't know if I can help him. His house has already been foreclosed on, somebody screwed up. He had a COVID mortgage forbearance and the family's like about to be put out on the street. Yes, COVID mortgage forbearance. When COVID hit, 20 million people lost their jobs, but we hoped it was going to be a temporary thing. And so Congress said, like, hey, look, if you're a homeowner and you're in trouble, you are allowed to to temporarily pause your mortgage payments and not lose your home.

That is forbearance. And it's become an important part of the crisis playbook. The system, the financial system, learned after the 2008 financial crisis and the foreclosure mess and millions of people losing their homes, it learned that like, well, everybody wins if you can avoid a foreclosure. Like the people on the other end that are trying to collect the money win, you know, the neighborhood wins, the homeowner wins. So forbearance comes into play where it's like, all right, well, something happened.

I'm in between jobs. So I might not be able to pay my mortgage for three or four months, but I'm getting another job. So just hang with me here, you know? Yeah, and even when there is not a crisis, you can usually work with your lender to pause mortgage payments for just a few months. With COVID though, the government extended that.

Homeowners were ultimately allowed 18 months of forbearance. However, Chris was hearing that something was going very wrong with that system, and it seemed to be hitting one particular group of homeowners. I remember hearing from some lawyers who were, you know, like people start, are about to lose their house, they start calling lawyers.

And they were telling me, they're getting a lot of calls from veterans. Like something wasn't right. Yeah, so I was out in LA doing a story on homeless veterans actually. That is Quill Lawrence, our second guide today. Quill covers Veterans affairs for NPR. And Chris reaches out to me and he's got some story

about veterans losing their homes. And I'm not used to hearing from Chris about veteran stories. He's the mortgage guy. So Chris and Quill went searching for somebody who was in the middle of this big problem. Somebody who was about to lose their home. And eventually I got connected with this couple,

Ray and Becky Queen, in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. And I was like, OK, let's talk to these guys. This is the letter that I received, my husband and I received yesterday, stating that our home is now in foreclosure. They're starting foreclosure proceedings. It's been- Ray and Becky Queen have four kids. Ray works for a veterans nonprofit,

veterans education stuff. Becky's a social worker. And a few years ago, they moved to Oklahoma for Becky's job. We purchased the home that we are in now, um, in 22 June of 2021, babe, June-ish. Yeah. We moved here at the middle of June 20. No. Oh, when we bought the house.

Yeah. Yeah. So just, and just so you're aware, um, I, I have brain damage from my time in Iraq, and so my memory is absolutely not great. So that's why Becky does most of the talking, because she's basically the memory bank for both of us. Ray and Becky were able to buy their home because of one of the key benefits of military service,

what's known as a VA home loan. It's a loan that is backed by the Department of Veterans Affairs. And these loans date back to World War II. You know, veterans, all the GIs returning from the war, it was a way for them to get a leg up into the middle class. Part of the deal and part of the reason veterans are a protected class is, yeah, because when they come back, you want some stability for them. And so the deal that they get includes, you know, health care if they need it,

and some benefits for disability like Ray has, and also this really sweet home loan with no money down and a really good interest rate. And the Queens are able to get that no money down, low rate mortgage in part because the Department of Veterans Affairs acts as this almost like very good, very rich friend for the Queens. The VA basically says to mortgage lenders, hey, you can lend to the Queens and we promise one way or another you'll get paid back.

And look, this is something the US government does for most people who buy a home. You've likely heard of Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae, the FHA. These are the massively rich friends that back most of the home loans in the US and that makes it less risky for banks to make loans and has generally brought mortgage rates down. But yeah, anyway, it is the Department of Veterans Affairs that helped Ray and Becky Queen get the house that they show to Chris and Quill. And then the kitchen, the kids have not done the dishes, so we'll just ignore that too. They gave us a tour of the house and it's like very comfortable.

The kids are hanging out doing their homework, playing video games, I mean, you know, doing stuff outside. It just feels like a place they've just settled in. Come here, boys. It's nothing remotely grand or ostentatious, but it feels so homey. I got lots of chickens, much to raise chagrin. On this really cute little farm. It's more farm than house. There's this one moment where one of the kids just fires up

this four wheeler ATV thing. It's like kid's eyes. And he just goes flying off around this field with a helmet on. He's bouncing around it and it just looked like it looked like so much fun. I was honestly jealous like I want to be doing that. That looks great. Well it must feel good to have you know you got a house with some land and your kid can go tearing off on the four-wheeler and yeah that's it's not what the possibility when I was a kid for multiple different reasons so it's it's it's great that they're able

to explore the things that they want to do he's he's an engine guy he's he's probably gonna be an engineer smart at almost, he's smarter than I am already. Yeah, like Ray said, he was wounded in Iraq and it's, I don't know, in my experience, sometimes it's hard for these folks to find a peaceful spot, but this looks like his peaceful spot to me. When Chris first met the Queens, they were about to lose all of that. During COVID, Becky and Ray were among the millions

of Americans who needed the help of mortgage forbearance. Becky's mom died of COVID. Becky had to take extended leave from her job and then lost her job. She called up the company that now handles her mortgage payments and they told her, yeah, you can pause your payments. So I'm 41 years old and I do my research.

I'm not just gonna be like, oh, sign me up. I don't have to pay you, cool. I did my research. I looked into everything. I called numerous, numerous times. And every time I was told a forbearance is very simple. It is, it's meant to last short term up to a year. And at the end of that year,

whatever you did not pay is tacked on to the end. Right, she says that they told her that when it was time to start making her mortgage payments again, nothing would really change. Those missed payments would move to the end of the loan. So basically, if she missed a year of payments, she would still owe those just way, way down the road. The way we were totally explained it,

it would be a fairly simple process. You start making payments again and you're done. And to be clear, this is a very normal way to restart payments after forbearance. And the vast majority of homeowners who had trouble during COVID were able to resume making their mortgage payments in some affordable way.

But a lot of military veterans with VA loans were not able to do that. When the Queens forbearance period was up, when they got their repayment options, that simple, affordable version of forbearance where you just move the missed payments to the back of the loan, it was nowhere to be found. So they were told they could pay back all of their missed payments all at once, $22,000, which they didn't have, or they could do what's called a loan modification, but rates had gone way up.

I mean, mortgage rates had doubled, and that meant if they did a loan mod, their payments were gonna go up by a huge amount. They couldn't afford any of those options. And after arguing on the phone for months with their mortgage company, saying this wasn't supposed to be the deal, they eventually realized they're going to be facing foreclosure.

And when I tell you that my heart dropped and like my hands were shaking and honest to God, I... It was scary. I was at work and I ended up leaving and telling Ray that, you know, I needed to talk to him before the kids got home from school because that was not something that the kids needed to hear. I mean, when I talked to Ray and Becky Queen, they were very close to foreclosure. I mean, you start getting letters in the mail that say, like, we're gonna foreclose on your house.

You know, there's not much time left. And they were scared and angry and confused. And now we're at the point where we've got to figure out what, do we just, do we give up and give in? Do we give up our property and walk away? And this is supposed to be a program that y'all have to help people in times of crisis, not being able to afford their mortgage

so you don't take their house from them. Like, I don't understand. So what was happening? The clock was ticking on the Queen's home. Chris starts calling like everyone, trying to get an answer to what exactly is going on here. I can't remember exactly one thing led to another, and I finally found a guy.

We'll call this person a well-positioned source, and Chris wound up talking to a bunch of people to confirm everything, but yes, he found a guy. And he's like, I'll tell you what I think's going on. And when he explains it, I'm like, oh my God, like that makes sense, and it sounds really bad. And what that well-positioned source explained to Chris was essentially the VA was being a bad rich friend,

because you will recall the VA is supposed to be a good rich friend that vouches for veterans, promises lenders that ultimately the VA can take the hit if someone stops paying their mortgage. Well, now when tens of thousands of veterans took COVID forbearance, they paused mortgages temporarily, but it was up to the VA to decide how those missed payments could eventually be paid back.

Like literally, to decide what the options would be for those homeowners when they were ready to start paying again. Chris has this useful way to picture the whole thing. Yeah, I mean, you kind of think about it this way, right? So you're paying your mortgage, you own your house, it's like you're driving along the freeway. But then crisis hits.

You pause your payments, you're pulling off the highway temporarily. Now, when it's time to start paying again, you need an on-ramp to get back onto the highway. It appeared that like loans back by Fannie and Freddie or FHA or most other loans in America that is, the on-ramps were working, people were getting back on, but something didn't seem to be working with the VA loans.

Yeah, all those other, you know, rich friend entities, Fannie, Freddie, et cetera, that help people get mortgages. Well, they also got to determine their homeowners forbearance repayment options, and those all seem to be going fine. What Chris's source was telling him was that sometime in October, 2022, the VA had stopped allowing the one repayment option

that Ray and Becky Queen had thought they were getting, where they pause their payments, restart the payments, and the missed payments go all the way to the back of the loan. It was the VA's one affordable on-ramp. The VA basically blew up the the on-ramp and people couldn't get back. As Chris and Quill dug into this, they discovered that there were as many as 40,000 veterans now stuck, unable to get back onto that mortgage payment highway. dug into this. They discovered that there were as many as 40,000 veterans now stuck, unable to get back onto that mortgage payment highway.

40,000 veterans that were on the path to losing their homes. Yeah, I mean, that was one of the most striking things in all of this, right? It's like, veterans are supposed to have better protections than everybody else. What we saw here was most other American homeowners had better protections than veterans.

It was the veterans who were getting hurt at the end of this COVID-4 merits thing. Now, again, the Queens were about to lose their house. They say it was scheduled for the next foreclosure auction. And this next part of the story, Chris and Quill are just sort of running between the Queens and the Department of Veterans Affairs, just trying to figure out why the VA blew up the on-ramp.

And so they go to the VA and they ask, why did you do this? Why did you blow up the one affordable option for veterans to start repaying their mortgage? And Quill says they were told, quote, "'We only had short-term authority for that specific program during COVID, and this wasn't part of our normal authority.'"

Does that mean anything? It didn't mean anything, didn't make any sense to me. Well, I mean, technically it means something, right? That they thought they had no choice but to turn off this option. But I mean, the thing that doesn't seem to add up or make any sense in that it's like, when we went to the VA, there were 6,000 veterans

on the verge of foreclosure, in the foreclosure process. A total of 40,000 vets headed that direction. I mean, you would think the VA would be jumping up and down saying like, we've got a serious problem. We have to shut down this thing that's gonna strand all these veterans. We need help, Congress, somebody please. And it wasn't that, I mean, it was like,

it seemed like somewhere in a dark room, late at night, somebody pulled the plug. It was bizarre. Now, the VA did seem to know there was a problem, to be fair. They said that they were working on a new on-ramp, if you will, a new way for people to start repaying again by sort of resetting the mortgage

to a super low interest rate. But the VA admitted to Chris and Quill, that whole thing wasn't going to be ready for months. So it was like, oh, there is a raging fire, basically. and they have these fire trucks, but they don't have the wheels on them and the hoses, and that's not all going to be built for like, and maybe six months from now. So all the houses were going to be burned down before the VA's rescue plan was like on the road.

I mean, it just like, this is what this is what you're doing. Chris and Quill go back to Rey Queen, explain all of this. and Ray is like, well, if the fix is coming, don't foreclose on us. Like, give the fire trucks time to show up. Let us keep paying towards our regular mortgage between now and then, and then once the VA has that fixed, then we come back and we address this situation. That seems like the adult mature thing to do, not put a family through hell. Chris and Quill go back to the VA, manage to get a sit-down interview

with the person in charge of the VA loan program, John Bell, and just tell him what Ray said. Why put families through hell, he said, if we don't have have to if you know if there's gonna be help in a few months I I have never I haven't said through this interview that that you know that we aren't exploring all options at this at this point In time because we certainly are we owe it to our veterans to make sure that we're giving them every opportunity To be able to stay in the home In other words still no help for Ray and and Becky and any other veterans about to lose their houses.

So, this time, Chris goes to… the airwaves. An NPR investigation has found that thousands of US military service members and veterans could lose their homes through no fault of their own. As NPR's Chris Arnold reports… Chris puts all of this reporting into a story, includes the Queens. Ray and Becky Queen are showing us around their farm in Bartlesville, Oklahoma.

And this is where things really start to kind of blow up. So yeah, so this time we do the story and four powerful US senators who had major committees fire off a letter to the VA and they were basically like WTF, what is going on? Uh-huh, WTF your own language there, I assume, not the senatorial. That was not, yeah, that's not technically what they wrote,

but that was the spirit of the letter. Chris and Quill would later call up one of those senators, Montana Democrat, John Tester. Don't let this go to your head, it was your coverage that brought this to our attention. Thank you, Senator. Tester is chairman of the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee. So, you know, he's in charge of the committee that oversees the VA. The truth is, we have a little more access to them than you do. So we pound on them regularly. We're going to continue to pound on them. So yeah,

this angry letter from Tester and the other senators went off to the VA. And then by the end of the week, the VA actually, you know, hats off, I mean, responded and stopped foreclosures on every single veteran in the United States of America for six months. So what did that mean for the Queens in that moment? Yeah, I mean, it means suddenly everyone was safe for at least six months. There's a pause, no one's gonna get foreclosed.

You know, even for, like I say, veterans stories have a lot of political heft to them and politicians do like to be seen to be doing stuff for veterans, but this is the fastest I've ever seen a story have a real world effect in 30 years. She just, I just heard her car. So she just. Oh, great. Yeah. Well, wait two seconds.

Chris called the Queens before news about the foreclosure moratorium had gotten out. So, um, so, uh, I, I heard from the VA tonight at six o'clock on a Friday. Um, but they sent me a statement here. And basically it says that the VA is now gonna stop foreclosing on anybody with a VA loan for the next six months while they figure out this new program and get it up and running. So people in your guys situation can take advantage of it

and not lose your house for no reason. That's awesome. Yeah. So I just wanted to tell you guys that and then see like what your take is on, you know, cause I know you guys have been stressed and it's been rough and you know. Yeah. I mean, it sucks that it had to get to this point

to get them to do that. But the fact that telling our story and getting some sort of justice for what's going on with our problems and everything else also helps 40,000 other veterans, that's absolutely amazing. Okay. It's been a year since that phone call. After the break, everything is fixed.

No, no, no way. No, it's not. No, not fixed. No. No. No way. No, it's not. No. Not fixed. If you're a regular listener of Planet Money, then you probably enjoy some other NPR podcasts too. With NPR+, you get perks like sponsor-free listening, bonus episodes, early access, shop

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be a lot. That's why here at NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast, we're in the business of providing a little release from the squeeze of the political season. Try out any of our shows on the latest in TV, movies, and music to keep you grounded and bring you back to Earth. New episodes every week on Pop Culture Happy Hour, only from NPR. The day's top headlines, local stories from your community, your next podcast binge listen. You can have it all in one place, your pocket. Download the NPR app today. So, a foreclosure pause is useful, but the whole point of that was to buy time for the Department of Veterans Affairs to roll out this permanent fix, this program that it was calling VASP.

So what VASP is going to do is... What does that stand for, VASP? Quill? Uh, veterans, the VA has to be Veterans. Uh, Veterans Affairs, Veterans Affairs, Servicing Purchase Program. Purchase Program. Let's call it the bailout plan. Good plan.

So the bailout plan. If you are a veteran who is facing foreclosure, the VA will go to the bank or more likely the investors who hold your mortgage and they will take the mortgage back from them. Put it in its own portfolio of mortgages, like the VA becomes a bank. And then since the VA is the bank, the VA can give you any interest rate it wants.

So it could say, Kenny, you got a 2% loan, it's gonna be very affordable, problem solved. Yeah, the bailout essentially gives the VA the ability to take over the mortgages of veterans like the Queens and then allow the Queens to restart affordable mortgage payments. Specifically at 2.5% for up to 40 years, it lets the VA offer a new on-ramp

back onto the old mortgage payment highway. So I mean, it is a good, it lets the VA offer a new on-ramp back onto the old mortgage payment highway. So I mean, it is a good fix and it's going to help thousands of people. Except, we do have one final stop on this story because during their year of reporting, Chris and Quill kept looking at this solution, this bailout, and saying, I think there is a huge hole in this VA fix, a big group of veterans getting left out here. So the thing is, we went to see the Queens north of Tulsa. But in the meantime, we'd heard from another veteran who lives in Tulsa, and it didn't look like any of this

was gonna help her at all. So? Think we should pull in the driveway? I'll pull right here. Chris and Quill went and visited. Hey, how are you doing? Hi, she's friendly, but she's gonna wanna check you out before.

Okay. Come on, Seagrid. So we met Natalie Donaldson and her pit bull, Seagrid, and she's an Army vet. She served as a military police officer. Now she's a schoolteacher, and she bought her house with a VA home loan. Does anybody want a piece of coffee, Candy? No. I love these things.

LAUGHTER There's more right here. It's sort of this little cottage-y place, and it's really nice. Like, the walls are, like, very solid colors, I don't know what to actually do. There's more right here. It's sort of this little cottage-y place and it's really nice. Like the walls are like very solid colors which makes it kind of stately and it's neat as a pin. I mean, she is just, the inside is like,

everything has a place. Because when I come in here in the spring and that blooming, I'm like, oh my God, that's beautiful. When she showed us around, you could kind of hear how this house and the last few years of her life which were Rough it's been a rough time and it's all kind of tangled up together and and at one point She's like pointing out to the backyard I used to have a meadow back there

It was so beautiful But last spring my mom had a heart attack and then my grandpa passed like a couple months after that and that meadow did not Get the attention that it needed or deserved. So this year I just mowed it all down and I'm starting over. So it's kind of scary back there. Natalie had a very similar story to the Queens. During COVID, she had to stop working to take care of sick family, got forbearance on her VA loan, and then one day gets word that she cannot just start up payments again like she thought.

The affordable on-ramp she thought that she would have was gone. And just like the queens, she was instead presented with very bad on-ramps back to repayment. And these will sound very familiar. On-ramp number one, pay all the money back at once, more than $15,000 in this case. That's a lot of money. And she couldn't do it, and they offered her this mod. On ramp number two, take a loan modification, again, basically a whole new mortgage, but interest rates had gone way up. And then suddenly she's owing $12.50 a month instead of $800 a month. And that just, that's a big jump.

And to be clear here, this is all happening before the foreclosure pause, before that moratorium. So, so these were the only two options, the only two on-ramps for Natalie to resume payment and keep her house. Natalie's mortgage company gives her a deadline to decide whether or not to take on those higher payments. Finally, the date is come and gone. And they're calling me. They're calling me every day. And I'm on the phone with the girl. I was in bed and I had the stuff spread out in front

of me. And she said, you have to sign it, you know, you have to, otherwise we're gonna foreclose on your home. And I'm telling her again, it's not sustainable, I can't do this, I don't know what to do. So unlike the Queens, Natalie decided to try somehow to make this loan modification thing work. Suddenly her monthly payments were 50% higher and she picked up every spare piece of work

that she could find. Tuesday I was doing one afterschool program, Thursday I was doing one afterschool program, and Wednesday I was doing another one. And so I'm just doing all this stuff so that I can make all this money so I can try to pay my house payment. I mean, I just, I was just doing all this stuff so that I can make all this money so I can try to pay my house payment.

I mean, I just, I was just in survival mode. I just went to work. I came home. I kind of shut down. Like I just, I saw I can't, I can't do this anymore. But she is still somehow doing it. And ironically, it is the fact that Natalie decided to try and make this higher mortgage thing work that is the problem.

Because the bailout, the VASP program, it is only for people who have stopped making payments and are headed towards foreclosure, which puts someone like Natalie in a rough spot. I mean, so yeah, I mean, what could happen if she strategically defaults, it's called, you just decide I'm gonna stop paying my mortgage, so I'll get behind, and then I'll qualify for the help.

But it's like, really, like, you're gonna put people through that when you could just give them access to the program? Yeah, strategic default would give some people in Natalie's situation access to the bailout program, but it would wreck Natalie's credit and her ability to get a loan anytime soon. And so she's still hustling, still scraping together those way higher monthly payments. Oh, you know, one thing, you know, if we are in a press conference with the VA Secretary McDonough,

like what would you want to tell him? What would you want to say? Just say, please help me too, help us too. Maybe all these other people, it's fixed for them and I'm so happy for them, but I want, I need that for myself too. I want, I need that for myself too. I want some semblance of what my life was before.

I did this. Chris and Quill have been trying to figure out how many Natalies there are out there. People who will not be helped by the big bailout plan, but probably still need help. So they asked the VA, did not get an answer, and then they FOIA'd a bunch of documents. They got a bunch of documents through the Freedom of Information Act and those appear to show that about 3,000 veterans took a loan modification and ended up paying at least 25% more per month. And some paid a lot more.

At least a thousand vets ended up with monthly payments that were 50% higher than before, just like Natalie. Yeah, I mean, this is not the way forbearance plans are supposed to work. I mean, the whole point is someone has to stop paying for a bit, they need to get back on track. So you give them an affordable way to start paying again, but your payment's going up by 50% or more,

obviously something's broken, you know, but so far they're not getting any help from the VA to make it right. The Department of Veterans Affairs holds these press conferences every month with like the person in charge, the head of the VA, Secretary Dennis McDonough. And for the last year.

Good afternoon, Quill. Hey, thanks, can y'all hear me? Yeah, we got you. Basically every month. We'll go to Chris. Good afternoon, Chris. Thanks, Quill's on vacation, so you guys are stuck with me.

Ah. Chris and Quill have been showing up and asking about VA mortgages. And I think you'll know that I want to ask you about the foreclosures. Yeah, so Quill, thanks so much. I'm glad that you asked about this question. We anticipated you might.

Not sure why we thought that. At the most recent of these press conferences. Thanks, Dan. We'll go these press conferences. Thanks, Dan. We'll go to Quill. Thanks very much. This week I was in Oklahoma meeting with a former MP who served in the 90s. Quill got the chance to ask the VA secretary, Natalie Donaldson's specific question. So she wants to know, what are you going to do to help veterans in her situation who

were as they consider duped into taking this VA forbearance, which had no on ramp back onto solvency and the current fix doesn't seem to affect them. Yeah. Well, thanks very much for the question, Quill. We are working all that data through. I don't have an answer on your question about similarly situated veterans, and you'll be among the first to know.

But I don't have any news for you on that right now. Yeah, the VA finally did give us a clear answer in a statement. And it doesn't directly address Natalie, but they said that they don't have the authority, they say, to include people like Natalie in the bailout plan. The bailout plan, they are only allowed to use to take over someone's mortgage if they have defaulted on it. And Natalie hasn't defaulted. So, um, they did say, however, that people like that, they did say that

veterans who were in trouble should reach out to the VA for help. I mean, look, to be clear, the VA did help a lot of veterans through this pull forbearance thing before it went off the rails and before the on-ramp got blown up. And when we learned about Ray and Becky Queen and other veterans in their situation and we exposed this whole thing, they acted very quickly to stop foreclosures on veterans all across the country. So I mean, they seem to be very sincere about wanting to do the right thing and help vets. But since then,

and help vets. But since then, it's just, you know, we keep asking them about people like Natalie, who ended up in these like brutally more expensive mortgages, this group of people like her. And now the VA is saying, well, we don't have the authority to include them in our rescue plan. That sounds like the exact same explanation

that they had when we asked them, well, why did you blow up the on-ramp in the first place? And it's like, well, can't you just ask for the authority? Can't you find a workaround? I mean, there are still thousands of veterans who got hurt here. They didn't do anything wrong. But as it stands right now, they are excluded from this rescue plan. As of this recording, the bailout plan, VASP, has just started to be rolled out.

Today's episode was produced by James Snead, it was edited by Meg Kramer, and fact-checked by Danya Suleiman. Engineering by Sina LaFredo, Alex Goldmark is Planet Money's executive producer. And a very, very special thanks this week to Robert Benincasa and Bob Little. I'm Kenny Malone. This is NPR. Thanks for listening. Ever look up at the stars and wonder, what's out there? On shortwave, we ask big questions about our universe.

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