Planetary Radio: Space Exploration, Astronomy and Science - TARDIS Talk: Space, Time, and “Doctor Who” with Russell T. Davies

Episode Date: May 8, 2024

This week on Planetary Radio, we celebrate the longest-running science fiction show in history, “Doctor Who.” We explore how this iconic series has influenced the scientific community and look forward to the new season of the show with Russell T. Davies, the past and present showrunner of “Doctor Who.” Then, space fans from around the world share how the show has impacted their lives and space careers. We close out with Bruce Betts, our chief scientist, as we discuss what we would do with a time machine in What's Up. Discover more at: https://www.planetary.org/planetary-radio/2024-tardis-talkSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We're celebrating the longest-running science fiction show in history, Doctor Who, this week on Planetary Radio. I'm Sarah El-Ahmed of the Planetary Society, with more of the human adventure across our solar system and beyond. Today, we're going to dive into the TARDIS to celebrate 60 remarkable years of Doctor Who. From its premiere in 1963 to its latest adventure that airs later this week, we'll explore how this iconic series has captured the imaginations of millions and influenced the scientific community. Our guest today is Russell T. Davies, the past and present showrunner of Doctor Who. Then, space fans from around the world share how this show impacted their lives. Stick around for the end as I share some of the places

I'd go in time and space with Bruce Betts, our chief scientist in What's Up. Whether you're a lifelong Whovian or just a curious science fiction fan, thanks for being with us. If you love Planetary Radio and want to stay informed about the latest space discoveries, make sure you hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcasting platform. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode filled with new and awe-inspiring ways to know the cosmos and our place within it. A few months ago, the Planetary Society's member community lit up when Doctor Who released its 60th anniversary trilogy. As a longtime Whovian myself, it was a joy to talk to other space fans about the show, but one conversation stood out. One of our young Planetary Society members named Heidi Jacobs showed particular enthusiasm, and that sparked me on my journey to create this episode.

We'll hear from Heidi and other space fans later in this episode, but I'd like to thank her and her parents for helping to make this happen. It's difficult to explain 60 years of a show in a few moments, but at its core, Doctor Who is a show about a human presenting extraterrestrial named the Doctor, who travels through the universe in a time machine. This machine is called the TARDIS, which stands for Time and Relative Dimension in Space. The Doctor comes from a planet called Gallifrey, the homeworld of the Time Lords. But Earth is the Doctor's chosen home. This character can go anywhere in the cosmos, from the dawn of time to the darkest moments at the heat death of the universe.

The show takes viewers to moments in the history of humanity and out to the most distant worlds, which makes it a very powerful tool for inspiring children and adults alike to think more deeply about our place in the universe. The Doctor has had many incarnations over the history of the show. When grievously injured, instead of passing away, the character regenerates into a new person who retains memories and some core attributes. This tactic has allowed the show to persist and change over the last 60 years. It just swaps out the actors and creates whole new generations of fans. Over the history of the show, there have been 15 Doctors, but that depends on how you count them. The latest Doctor, whose season premieres this Friday, May 10th, is portrayed by Shudy Gatwa. There have also been many Doctor Who spinoff series,

including Torchwood, which ran from 2006 to 2011. Of course, the Doctors don't embark on these adventures alone. They choose companions, fortunate humans and sometimes aliens, who get to step into the TARDIS and journey to witness some of the most significant moments in the universe. Whether on Earth or visiting the far reaches of space and time, these companions add unique perspective to the Doctor's travels, showing us the reactions of everyday people as they confront the vastness and complexity of the cosmos. Along the way, they encounter a multitude of species, some new friends, and powerful enemies. The Doctor's arch-nemesis is the Time Lord called the Master, whom we'll talk a little

bit about in our conversation. There are also many iconic enemies, most notably the Daleks. Even if you're not a fan of the show, you've probably seen jokes about them going exterminate, exterminate, all throughout science fiction. While Doctor Who is a science fiction show, I wouldn't call it hard science. It weaves in elements of fantasy, myth, history, and archaeology in ways that allow the writing team to take the show literally anywhere they please. Despite its moments of scientific inaccuracy, the whimsy and wonder of the show have inspired scientists and space fans the world over. Our guest today is Russell T. Davies, the showrunner for Doctor Who. Russell played a pivotal role in the show's revival and modern success. He served as the showrunner and chief writer from 2005 to 2010, when the BBC relaunched it after a 16-year hiatus, excluding

the TV movie from 1996, of course. He's returned as showrunner once more as we look forward to a new era of the show, which begins streaming this Friday, May 10th at 7pm Eastern Time on Disney Plus where available, and at the same time on May 11th at midnight on BBC iPlayer in the UK. It is so wonderful to have you

on Planetary Radio. Thank you. Thank you. That's great. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Doctor Who has shaped my life in so many ways. It helped me find my life partner. It's helped me find so many of my friends. And I've heard in both my case

and in many of my friends in the space community that this show helped shape their careers and led them on the path towards space science. Oh, that's interesting because in my experience,

that's something I've heard more about Star Trek. I've heard that said a lot. We love Star Trek with all our hearts. And I'm particularly a fan of the new Star Trek. I love the discovery onwards. I've become a fan, but you tend to hear that. And also I think in Britain, there's not as much of a space industry for Hunter Charles to be had. I'm sorry to those who do find that, but I'm amazed at that. I'm delighted. I'm really pleased. Thank you. Well, it's wonderful because Star Trek also had a deep impact on my life, right? But Doctor Who has been the longest running science fiction show in the history of history. This is one of those things that's had a deep impact on people. And I'm sad to hear that

you haven't heard from people personally how much this has influenced their space careers because I've encountered so many people for which that is true. I'm genuinely, in fairness, I don't think I meet people who have space careers. I think that's my problem. We'll have to go ask the people at ESA. I know, I'm coming, I'm just partying with yours. It's like, I'm just really thrilled to hear this. I'm going to pass that on to the team as well. It's great to hear. I actually had a wonderful moment in college. i went into my cosmology professor's class and up in the corner of the blackboard he'd drawn a tiny tardis and i'd actually never watched the show at that point

and he pointed to it and he said if you don't know what this is i'm going to be referring to it a lot as we explore the breadth of time and space if you don't know about it please come over come over to my place. We'll be having a Doctor Who watch party. And that was actually your first season as showrunner on Doctor Who. No way. What a fine teacher. You should win all the awards. Oh, I love that. And how did you meet? Is that how you met your partner? You said you met your partner through Doctor Who? Later on, he showed up to my graduation party dressed as the Doctor, the 10th Doctor in caddies. Instant love. caddies instant love how do you feel that the doctor's adventures in the tardis allow people to really kind of understand the scale of space and time in a way that other shows perhaps even star trek aren't able to do i think it's it's so lovely

it's genuinely not something i've considered that much what i tend to find just to counter that is that what i get what we certainly get brit, is people who work in television because of Doctor Who and that's because, slightly different issue I know, is that we've always believed in having a massive amount of behind the scenes stuff, even before the BTS stuff became popular. It's like way back in history, 1973 they published a book called The Making of Doctor Who. I was 10 in 1973. And this book described studios and rehearsals, and what a script editor does, and the fact that actors are blocked and then filmed by cameras, which was revelatory to me. And Doctor Who has always continued that tradition. So now, my version of what you're

saying is I tend to sit in edit suitesites and directors will come in and they will say, oh my god, I'm a fan of Doctor Who. Oh my god, I started out watching this. Oh my god, I watch your behind the scenes stuff, so that's brilliant. But I do love that. I mean, in my experience, I tend to get told off by space and science people because we have quite a willful, hand-wavy approach to scientific matters, which I know, and I'm not here to apologize for that. You can line up and fight me. I'll arm wrestle you if you want. But the very fundamental premise of the show is that it has a box that's bigger on the inside than it is on the outside that can travel anywhere in time and space. It's clearly never really worried about real world physics

right from the very start. Except I actually think the opposite. I think the true physicist and the true scientist doesn't look at that and say that's impossible. I think the true scientist looks at that and says, how does that work? How could we get there? And you know that. I'm speaking to the choir here, but I think there's a great openness and wildness and boldness for imagination to doctor who i hope makes some people sit forward and say how can that when when i bet my time machine it'll be like that if only i hope it's very much in my brain akin to in cosmos carl sagan's spaceship of the imagination and the fact that it doesn't go perfectly hard science fiction the fact that it allows you to perfectly hard science fiction the fact that

it allows you to do these fantasy elements particularly as we go into this next season in some ways makes it a lot more accessible i feel and it's kind of like a gateway into the harder science yes i think i think once you get into that that stratosphere of taking science and myth there are places where all of this meets and And I think if you start drawing lines and saying, this doesn't work, you can't do this, this won't meet, then I don't think you're on the right path. Every year I actually go to the biggest Doctor Who convention in the world, Gallifrey One here in LA. Oh, Gallifrey One, yes, yes.

And because the LA area is so full of space industry, you have people from NASA's Trip Propulsion Laboratory, people that work on these space missions just roving in groups there together, which is really lovely to see. It's delightful to hear. This is eye-opening. It's wonderful. I'm really pleased. I'm really delighted. But because of this kind of timey-wimey-ness of the show, you're able to do things, go to moments in space and time that I haven't personally seen in other shows. go to moments in space and time that I haven't personally seen in other shows. And for me,

some of them that were most impactful were these moments with the beginning and the end of our planet. As an example, the ninth doctor, when he takes his companion, Rose Tyler, on their first time adventure, the first thing he does is take her to see the end of the earth. How do you choose these moments? Do you start with the doctor and the companion's mental state and then find a moment in space that you think might connect with that? Or do you have a master list of all the moments in space time that you want to talk about? I kind of look for extremity in a way. I look for headlines. It's like, you know, it would be we would all love to see the Earth in 500,000 years time. That would be fascinating.

It doesn't quite grab you, though, does it? It's like to see the end of the earth in five billion years time is is fascinating and that was episode two that was back when doctor was coming back as a brand new show for for generations that hadn't seen it before properly and where we didn't know if it would work or not so in that first year every episode is fighting for headline every episode is punching every episode is saying this is extraordinary so therefore the end of the earth was was kind of the biggest thing i could possibly do and also the fact that that's real it's like this will happen it's this everything we are and at the end of that episode it stands there they go back to 21st century earth they stand on a busy shopping street and they look up

and say all of this is gone the concrete even the sky he says he looks up at the sky and i think it's good for us to remember that i think it's good for us to know our place in the world to see how important today is and that's the point of that is you could do a hopeless version of that scene you could do a version that sort of says, what's the point of anything? We're all dust in the end. There's that. But I would always want Doctor Who to do the opposite.

I'm always very aware that it draws a very young audience. And especially in that episode, just before, there's a very pivotal speech just before you see the end of the world in that episode, as they step out of the TARDIS and he says, the human race, the doctor says the human race is always imagining, you're going to die.

You're going to die by floods or poison or heat waves or disease. And actually maybe the opposite is possible. Maybe you survive. So actually a story about the end of the world is actually about this saying that the human race has persisted for five billion years. And I love that. There's an episode later on the episode what you took me later on she said at the end of the universe and there's still a human race that's much darker that one of the human races heading it towards a terrible trap but nonetheless

the doctor in that says you know someone after i think says why you know we evolved in in all these trillions of years and the dog says yes you've had you've been the human race is evolving to clouds of gas and data and all sorts of but actually now you've come back to your basic form which is this human form and there we are at the end of the universe still slugging it out and i and i that's the convoluted way of saying i want that optimist because there's a young audience watching and i think my goodness me it's like let alone certainly in 2005 even more so now a thousand more times more now you worry about the mental health of young people it's one of our greatest terrors and I meet a lot of young people I've got a lot of students in this job gosh I worry about the state of their mental health

quite truly deeply profoundly I always want the program to be doing the opposite, to be a siren call, so that actually things can get better, actually we can survive, actually we'll find our way through this. I encounter that a lot, especially as a science communicator, when people really kind of grasp the scale and breadth of the universe. And then you look at where we lie within that picture. In a lot of cases, it makes people feel hopeless or insignificant. And I think that's something very special about Doctor Who specifically, that in the scale of all of that, the Doctor reiterates time and again,

and you even do it in the second episode of this upcoming season, that every life is precious, even the Doctor's enemies. We did a spin-off called Torchwood, in which we did a show called Torchwood Children of Earth, which is one of the bleakest things ever made. That was pretty bleak. Possibly closer to my own take on the world. But in the first episode of that, there's a bit of a chance that went out at nine o'clock in Britain that dropped us as an adult drama.

And there's a character in that which says, so it's part of the Doctor Who universe, which has Earth being regularly invaded by aliens, it's an Earth which is now aware of alien life and a character sits down and says actually suicide rates have tripled because a lot of people now think they're tiny

that they used to have some faith or they used to have a belief in being human and being important and now the existence of alien life has just reduced that. They think they are just nothing. And I loved writing that. I think that's a terrible take on things. But I come out thinking, you know, my God,

that day the aliens made contact. Wow. The psychological repercussions of that will be so vast. The self-destruction that will be unleashed on that day, I dread to think that's another job that's another drama one day oh my god i guess this cosmic awe is a kind of double-edged sword you know it in in the event that we find life in the universe which is something that our organization is so passionate about i feel like it would make me feel connected to to all of time

and space but for many others it would it would drive them into places of deep sadness and i think that's something that's so special about this kind of dichotomy between the doctor and the master and the way that they interpret this there's this moment where the the master is a very young person the master being the arch nemesis of the doctor looks into the untempered schism and basically falls into madness and just believes that nothing is important none of these people are important it's you do you forgive me i should know the planetary society better you believe in life another another balance i mean statistically speaking i would sooner eat my hair than think that life isn't out there in the universe

it's quite likely that we might find life even in our own solar system when we were about to launch the europa clipper mission later this year to go explore the water world around jupiter and try to find life we're at the beginning of this journey but i i am statistically we can't say for sure yet but i am truly hoping we will find them in our lifetime if we're mentally prepared for it but because of the fact that the master is kind of portrayed this way it it does kind of point out that people as they go out into space might end up in this this space of psychological instability and and what is this show trying to tell us about what we should be aware of as people

confront the depths of space or as we send people eventually on crude missions to other worlds yeah yeah yeah i think i think it's always saying have faith in each other um which is set on a planet over the edge of a black hole that's absolutely one of my do you know i think that's my favorite of all time i love that one every time i catch that on repeat, I can't turn away. I think I'll just watch it for five minutes and then 45 minutes later, I'm still there watching that all day. I love that one.

And that has a great crew. It's like where you might want to put gods or you might want to put science or you might want to put faith. It's like they have each other. It's a very, very, very humanist show in the end and it very often has lonely outposts of humans and I believe in the

extremes practically inside a black hole at the end of the universe the end of the earth and there's always people there and some of them might be females, some of them might be liars some of them might have problems but actually they have each other and it is a message.

The message of the show is actually to rely on each other. The Doctor will meet these people, and they will be inspired by the Doctor. It is absolutely fundamentally an optimistic show. In a way, the Doctor wasn't, because that's more for... It is that child audience for Doctor Who. It's not only for children, absolutely not, but there was a significant child audience, especially for a very, very significant,

and I think they are forever being told that the world is coming to an end and we must have an opposite narrative. We must have a story that says it's going to be fine. This show is honestly so much about those everyday heroes. I'm thinking specifically about that episode of the waters of Mars. All those people

together on Mars and the first human colony off of Earth in space, the way they have to rely on each other and the sacrifices that they're willing to make in order to further humanity. I mean, that's a very tough story. That is poor Steffi. And the moment of her death, kind of playing a video of her children left back at the bar. That's like the devil was in me that day. I've got to say, I was going for it in that one. But that's the part you push to get as hard as it can possibly get. And the events of that stop the Doctor taking the wrong path in life. He's on the verge of becoming this arrogant,

time-honoured victorious, but Adelaide sacrifice. It means that he doesn't become that. Yeah, that was four years, five years into the show. It just kind of proves that you have to keep pushing it. It's tougher the more you push it, but it's a very resilient show. It keeps pushing back. It keeps surviving. It keeps going back to basics and keeps being optimistic and pleased about that. Yeah, and no matter how many doctors, no matter how many iterations,

no matter how many companions we get in, that's the core that it keeps coming back to. So what you've seen, you've seen the first three episodes of the new series, are you getting that life, are you getting that optimism, that buzz? Yeah, the optimism is definitely

there, and I mean, shooty God, what a choice. The vibrance, just the energy, the love that he shows in that role. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he evolves in it over the next episodes. I cannot tell you how excited I am to see the rest of the season.

But that's it actually. I wanted to come back and it's hard work being joyous. It's actually easier to be tragic. It's very interesting that after five years on Doctor Who, I ended up writing The Waters of Mars, which is as dark as a drama could possibly get into, let's say, wasn't it? And actually, to come back to it now,

is to look at shooting to say, let's have fun, let's shine out to the screen. Let's have a great big smile on our face. Let's be joyous, let's be happy. Even in the worst of situations, let's find a joke. And he does that so unambiguously. That's so brilliant. I'm delighted you're getting that reaction, because

that's what I set out to do. But also, I mean, given the hardships that the doctor has faced, in some cases it's very strange to watch. I'm thinking about the 50th anniversary episode, that juxtaposition of the way that Matt Smith's doctor, the 11th doctor, just kind of seems to be very bright and cheery all the that matt smith's doctor the 11th doctor just kind of you

know seems to be very bright and cheery all the time but here you have the 10th doctor confronting him like you don't even remember how many children on gallifrey were killed sometimes it feels like a belligerent optimism in its own way almost its own form of mental illness and an inability to witness your own sadness. It's a hard one. It's a very hard one. That's very true. It's the battle we're all in.

It's like we can all say it. And, you know, it's very easy to say despair about the state of the world. And actually, it's much harder to fight. And, you know, God knows the climate scientists fighting to find ways to stop what we're doing now are, you know, maybe one day they'll be revealed as heroes. But not yet. Right now, they're fighting to be believed, but surely, surely the time will come.

Surely. I mean, what we've seen within the scientific community, within the space community, is that when we are presented these true challenges, these deep challenges, and we're given the resources to confront it, we are able to rise up to these challenges. So maybe that's why Doctor Who resonates with me so hard, that hope is truly important as we confront these issues. Because if you try to be depressed about it, that's not going to help you. Yeah, it'll win. It'll win. You don't want to let the sadness win. And that is what the Doctor does, just traveling. Ostensibly, he or she is traveling through time and space just to adventure but everywhere the doctor goes they're confronted with these challenges and is willing to step into those places to to be that force of hope and and to be the person that guides people

through hardship and and trying to save the earth over and over again i love the way you described doctor i hope no people listen to this podcast who've never watched it because you made me watch it. I love that. It's brilliant. Thank you. Come on. Come on watch. I mean, honestly, the Doctor has faced such difficulty. I mean, primarily I'm thinking about the destruction of Gallifrey, the home world of the Time Lords.

Trying to confront that is so hard. And then watching the way that the Doctor then turns to earth and becomes this protector. It reminds me deeply of our co-founder Carl Sagan's book, The Pale Blue Dot. There's this passage where he says, to me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known right and the doctor very much feels that way and why is it that earth in particular is something so precious to the doctor that that they would be willing to give their lives for and continuously put themselves in that position to do so for us meager earthlings made on earth it'd be very hard to feel this much about us what we must

get better as is traveling this earth it'd be very british program this much of a pass. What we must get better at is travelling this earth. It'd be a very big British programme. A lot of problems tend to end up in London's backyard. And my predecessor, Chris Tupel, was much better at exploring than I did, but South Africa, to meet Rosa Parks. And he went to Aleppo, extraordinary. The 12th century Aleppo. I must admit, I've gone back down my London path these days. I'm much more interested in bringing the show back to Wales

because I'm Welsh and you never see Wales. But it's steeped in our history. It's been from the Aztecs to World War II. The programme fits strangely perfectly into the Victorian era because there's something of the old-fashioned explorer, that doctor who, whether male or female, just thought that age of adventuring and discovery and strata in society.

So, yes, it's adopted home. It's as simple as that. And recent stories are looking now at the fact that the doctor is a foundling. He's recently been made a foundling in the story, which wasn't me. I didn't introduce that. Christian would introduce that,

but I leapt upon that as a gloriously emotional thing. So he's a foundling and it's his home. Let's face it, really. What's his home? The earth it really what's his home the earth and then using that to then connect with this new companion who herself is adopted and helping other adopted children find their new homes that's a beautiful connection and i feel like there's a lot to be explored there and you know you've taken some interesting turns with the show that even just the destruction of gallifrey alone was a big moment that changed the entire canon of the Doctor.

And yet with this legacy of the show, it's been going on for 60 years. Sometimes you have to take that chance and dive into something. People sometimes get upset about the canon changes, I understand. But where do you go next except to explore some new way to emotionally connect to this character? I know, I know. They just translated those they just found ways to translate those documents that describe how Plato spent his last evening in Pompeii. And I wonder if any Plato fans

are upset. Do you think they're up in arms? Because the newbies of law has come into existence. I bet someone somewhere's livid that that's not right. I imagine Plato. And so there's something that sets your teeth on edge when you see something different. It's like, that's why I'm always passionate about getting these more and richer and more diverse

images into childhood, whether it's religion or sexuality. That's where education starts. And for a family of teachers, so forgive me for banging on about that. Same. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's once the child becomes wiser, their reactions in adult life become better. That's simply a fact. And so on a much smaller level, when people grow up with Doctor Who, they will get upset if what they're told about the Doctor Who of their youth is said to have changed. And I get that. I completely get it. The doctor who are they is said to have changed and i get

that i completely get it the person who would argue against it is the doctor the one who'd say open up your mind listen to this this is a new thought welcome in embrace this this could be richer it's good in life in your life then that's great and there's ways of pivoting things i can quite understand that a phrase like the timeless child might leave you cold. The timeless child doesn't mean anything to me. I'm a foundling means an awful lot to me. So that's the way I'm playing it. It's like, I don't live with my mothers, I don't live with my fathers.

Ruby, I don't live with my mothers, I don't live with my fathers. I'm in. I'm invested. So I think sometimes we get hung up on the science fiction sort of proper nouns. Timeless child, gallant, right? Whereas if we're talking about your childhood and your home planet, that makes sense. It's that if you just look past proper nouns into what it means behind that, then it's really rich stuff. I think that's actually part of the sticking power of this show. When I go to these conventions, clearly there are parts of the show that resonate more with any individual group. Your earliest work on Doctor Who is my era where I came in. So that's where I find my deepest passion and I rewatch it every single

year and why we continue to do this. But I love going there and seeing the different generations of Doctor Who fans. You have the people in their Tom Baker era, you have the people that are the troops of women dressed as Jodie Whittaker as the 13th Doctor running around in their long coats and it is so beautiful to see that arc and particularly as we're in this new phase where the show is kind of trying to showcase more diversity, more diverse perspectives, seeing the change in the demographics of people that are showing up at these conventions. Oh, that's interesting. Is that absolutely lovely? It is visible. It is. Oh, you can see it in the audience. It's amazing. That's nice. That's really good to hear. Brilliant. Brilliant. And seeing it in the show as well. I mean, it's not just that we have

Shudy Gatwa as the first black man in this role, but we have the incarnations of the doctor and the master, both as women and also our first transgender companion. Seeing this all on the show together is something very beautiful. And it's something we've been grappling with in the space community as well, just because we've been around so long. Necessarily, we've had to think more about how to be more diverse and inclusive. we've had to think more about how to be more diverse and inclusive and when we bring in more people it is an asset to us the perspectives we get the discoveries we make the ability to share more with other people just makes your life richer doesn't it i'm very proud of our car disabled casting which we're expanding and next year we've got some extraordinary episodes where we're really pushing that it's like i've worked a lot with the actress ruth mainly and that's made my life richer

and better and i've loved exploring that but it's not just on screen as an actor, but as a friend. I remember the day before I met her, I cast her in a series called Years and Years, and I looked up online, because I'm very tall, I'm six foot six, so I kind of looked up what's the best way for a tall person to greet someone in a wheelchair. I got to the age of 50 without having to even look that up. I mean, that says a lot about the privilege of my life. And it said, go down to the level of 50 without having to even look that up. I mean, that says a lot about the privilege of my life. And it said, go down to the level of the wheelchair. So the moment I met her, I went down to the level of the wheelchair.

She went, what are you doing? She just laughed at me. And I was like, well, it says to do this online. And she was like, stand up, you idiot. She was like that. Literally, she makes your life better in front of you every single moment. I know she's a proper friend now, but what you learn, what you learn off her is amazing. Watching that episode, seeing the wheelchair accessibility ramp come out of the TARDIS, I burst into tears.

And so many of my friends as well. We were all online talking to each other about just these little moments that truly make people feel seen and appreciated. And that's very special about this show. Thank you. That's amazing. I'm so pleased, thank you. Why do you think it's so important, particularly for science fiction and shows like Doctor Who, to really lean into these diverse perspectives? It's interesting, isn't it? It's like, people want shows, shouldn't they? To be honest, I've been chasing my tail on many, you know, a lot of my work is about, a lot of my representation, because it's gay representation, gay male representation, which I've written about all

the months. And there's something about the science fiction genre that means the wheels are off to begin with. And it's a bit wilder, a bit badder. And so it's a bit odder if your representation, you know, I could believe, I could believe a room full of detectives that doesn't have a single black person, a single disabled person, because actually I could go and find you that in 20 British cities right now, because that's one of the problems with the shape of the world. And if you were representing

that screen, you should try harder, but nonetheless, don't tell me those places exist. But when it's a space station in the far future, or, you know, it's a colony on a far flung world, it's like, really? What's your excuse now?

And also, its creators, its writers have all, you know, the famous representation of Star Trek Discovery, Captain Michael Burnham, I adore you. I love her. My God, I want to meet her. Can you get me to meet her? I want to meet her. Can you get me to meet her? I want to meet her.

I can do that. I have met her. No way. Just think. I'm like two episodes behind now as well. Don't tell me. I love her. Anyway, so there's something about these shows that are futuristic.

It's simply futuristic. And you have to hope that future is better. And therefore, we will show that better future on screen it's it was that room full of detectives might take another 20 years to change and that's unfair on a lot of my friends who work in television they were also changing those roomfuls of detectives and making the world better and brighter as well but in science fiction it's kind of like it's just it's faster it's it's more forward-looking it's got to be and also it's kind of like it's just it's faster it's it's more forward looking it's got to be and also it's the whole science fiction doesn't exist if it's not an analogy of the modern day it exists to

tell stories through metaphor of the modern day so it's more busily looking at what the modern day is maybe i'm making this up maybe we're just better people as time goes on and especially through these influences you know we we all learn to be kinder and treat each other with the fairness that we all deserve and cherish one another and i love that about the doctor that the doctor is always cherishing especially the weird things about people the things that other people might find different or scary those are the things that the doctor cherishes and uplifts and finds special and worth preserving.

Absolutely. In that first episode this year, he meets the bogeyman and he's puzzled by the fact that he's scared and there's a reason why he's scared. It's transmitted at 17 hertz to scare him because he wouldn't be scared of a monster. He'd be like, hello monster, who are you? I love that. It's a extraordinary character to write. I was more personally terrified by the

space babies, but that's a whole other thing. Not Eric. Surely not Eric. Eric was adorable. I love the episodes that it builds on its own mystery. I'm particularly thinking back to that episode where the Weeping Angels were first introduced, where Sally Sparrow is going through,

trying one moment at a time to piece together the mystery of what happened. Seeing all of that through the perspective of someone outside of the Doctor is fun and mysterious, but these moments where the Doctor, as someone who's travelled all the time in space, experienced aliens and the ends of worlds and all these things,

and still comes out mystified. But as he blinks into it, it's like sometimes he knows too much. It's actually when I'm working with other writers and stuff, it's like you very often laugh and say, oh, it's the Banner X that they have such and such atmosphere about. And I go, can you take that out? Can't he just walk out the door and go, where are we?

Oh, this is interesting. I'd much rather have him discovering things on the spot. It's much more fun than that. Well, I'm still looking forward to this. I cannot, cannot wait to see what this next generation is going to be like and who these characters evolve into over time. And I mean, just,

I know this might just be me as a super fan, but I know I speak for so many people in the space community. Thank you for what you've done and for everyone who's worked on the show over its 60 years. I feel like it's done so much for the space community. And if I'm the first person to say it to you, I hope you hear it a million times later.

We'll come over and we'll hang out with the people at the European Space Agency and talk to them because I'm sure they have the same story. Let's do that. I'm so delighted to hear that. That's really meant a lot to me. And I'm going to pass that on to the rest of the team because it's like, you never know things like that. I genuinely thought that was exclusively a Star Trek thing because they're so proud of that. They talk about it a lot. And I know some of those writers, those people are immensely proud of it. So I haven't realized we were lucky enough to share that tradition. I'm thrilled. Thank you. It's so kind.

So kind. Well, at the Planetary Society, we're all about exploring worlds searching for life and defending earth so in my head canon the doctor is basically part of our space fam so i'm going to declare that canon he is a membership of society that's a fact love it thank you so much russell oh thank you i love that i love that conversation thank you it is with great pleasure that i announce the Planetary Society's decision to bestow honorary membership upon the doctor in recognition of the doctor's contributions to our understanding and appreciation of space. Russell, be on the lookout for the doctor's official Planetary Society membership card, which will be arriving in your mailbox soon. We'll be right back after this short break. Greetings, Bill Nye here, CEO of the Planetary Society.

When you support the Planetary Society, you support space exploration. That means you are directly involved in making phenomenal moments in space exploration a reality. And that's why I'm seeking your participation in our Beyond the Horizon Every Member campaign. We're in the final phase of our five-year plan, and we are more than 85% of the way to our goal of raising vital funds that will expand our core mission and strengthen the society. This campaign is critical to our future as the world's leading citizen space advocacy organization, and with your help, we are supporting new science and technology.

You will grow the society to make our collective voice on behalf of space advocacy even stronger across the globe, and we are connecting more people of all ages with the passion, beauty, and joy of space exploration. of all ages with the passion, beauty, and joy of space exploration. Your gift of any amount today is an investment in the future and will help us usher in the next great era of space exploration. Let's go beyond the horizon. Let's make new discoveries. Let's keep going. Let's change the world. Let's keep going. Let's change the world. After realizing that Russell had yet to hear much from the space community about the ways that the show and his work had impacted us, I reached out to space fans to ask them to let us know how the show impacted their lives and their careers.

Here are some of their stories, starting with Heidi Jacobs. Hello, my name is Heidi Jacobs. I'm 14 years old and a proud Planetary Society member and a huge fan of Doctor Who. Doctor Who has definitely sparked a whole new level of interest in space. When I started watching Doctor Who, I was immediately hooked on the idea of time travel and travel between universes. It made me think a lot about the possibilities of what could be out there and I keep finding myself pondering the vastness of space and wondering what other life exists. Watching the Time Lords explore the universes helped me see that the universe is so much bigger than I ever could have imagined. And that is just so fascinating to me.

I love seeing how much the doctor cares about all living things, how he would rather risk his own safety to save an alien species than see a creature suffer. I am so grateful for Doctor Who and for the curiosity it has sparked within me. Alonzi! the curiosity it has sparked within me. Alonzi! I'm Robert Johannesson, and before I discovered Doctor Who, I was already into science and science fiction, especially time travel and space. Doctor Who must have further inspired my interests. The adventures, the exploration, the discoveries, fighting alien monsters, anywhere, anytime in space-time. And I think the Doctor, the discoveries, fighting alien monsters, anywhere, anytime in space-time. And I think the doctor and the doctor's companions and their amazing curiosity, their figuring things out, solving problems, this appeals to scientists, past and present and future.

That's pretty much what I wanted to say. Thank you. My name is Mason. Doctor Who is what inspired my love of space. My uncles introduced me to the show and ever since I watched it with its sprawling universe and fantastic series, I've been obsessed with everything space. My life would be entirely different had Doctor Who not been in it. My name is Ben at Silver Sparrow Holland. I'm a law student from Essex, England. I'm a member of the Planetary Society and a long time Doctor Who fan. I've been a Doctor Who fan since childhood.

Doctor Who, it's got so many interesting concepts in it. I remember the episode, Jadoon on the Moon, interesting concepts in it. I remember the episode, Jadoon on the Moon, where David Tennant, he quoted space law at these Jadoon. And that really stuck with me. Even now, my dissertation is in space law, mostly because of that episode. And I'd just really like to thank everyone that's ever worked on Doctor Who for making mine and many other people's childhoods. So thank you. My name is Brian Wiega. And when I was 14, I saw this amazing TV movie about a hero who travels through time in a library. It's called Doctor Who. I just picked up this great plastic replica of a tricorder from Star Trek. So I rushed out to buy my own sonic screwdriver, but there weren't any in the toy

store. So before I could even drive, I got the Doctor Who technical manual and learned how to make my own sonic screwdriver out of PVC pipes and that little springy tube thing that holds a toilet paper roll. So it could pop up and down like the one in the movie. All these new skills led directly to my career as the lead designer for motion picture film scanners at Laser Graphics. My scanners are used by everyone from NASA and Los Alamos Labs who document our path to the stars, to places like IMAX or Warner Brothers restoring the greatest films ever made. And it always makes me smile that whenever people

watch something our customers have worked on, like Citizen Kane, Casablanca, Batman, 2001 A Space Odyssey, or the world's first sci-fi blockbuster, A Trip to the Moon by Georges Méliès, that there's this little handmade sonic screwdriver in there making it

all possible. Sounds like the sort of thing Stephen Moffat would write. The last person we just heard from, Brian Wiega, is also featured in an upcoming documentary called Indoctrinated. It's a feature-length film about three American fans who have been inspired by Doctor Who to make the world a better place. I'll leave information about that on the webpage for this episode of Planetary Radio at planetary.org slash radio. I also received a message from the team from The Legend of the Traveling TARDIS, a Doctor Who-themed podcast. Hi, my name is Tom. I'm a big Doctor Who fan, big Star Trek fan, and everything space-related. I'm Kev O kevin really and russell d davis is my dad doctor who has always inspired and encouraged a spirit of exploration and it taught me to push

boundaries and think not just about my world but those beyond hi i'm nick i've always enjoyed watching the doctor explore the universe and save the universe using kindness and humanity and he's encouraged me to do the same. I'm a candy man. I'm from England. I love Dr. Ho. The doctor travels around the universe with just a screwdriver,

fixing stuff. And we love the universe. My name is Christian Bays. And I grew up with Tom Baker on PBS and inspired me so much that I started a podcast. And we are. The outpouring of the traveling goddess. The outpouring of love for the show that's been coming into my inbox over the last few days has been so heartwarming. I mentioned in my conversation with Russell that I attend the

Gallifrey One convention in Los Angeles every year. At the request of some Planetary Society members in our community, I'm looking into hosting a Planetary Society meetup and perhaps some panels at the next Gallifrey One convention. That's going to be between February 14th and 16th in 2025. If you want to learn more about that, I'm going to be sharing information about that in our member community app when the time approaches. Thank you to everyone who sent in their messages. And of course, thanks to Russell, the BBC, Disney, and the Doctor. I'd also like to shout out my UC Berkeley cosmology professor, Adrian Lee, and my favorite study buddy, Nama Dror, because they both got me into the show.

Now, let's check in with our chief scientist, Dr. Bruce Betts, for what's up. Hey, Bruce. Exterminate. Exterminate. Hey, Sarah. Are you a Doctor Who fan? I am, but I don't dare to put myself in the class of a true fan. I'm just a flaky fan. But I have enjoyed it.

I've had this conversation with you in the past about how it's hard for you to get into a lot of science fiction because it either has to be really scientifically accurate or not. So you kind of prefer fantasy and things that go off the rails. So when does that, where does that put you with Dr. Who? It's pretty off the rails. So I actually don't think too much when I watch it about the reality because it's so off the rails. Occasionally there's something in space, but usually, I mean, these time, they're going through time. It's just, everything's already just crazy.

I mean, I mean, the TARDIS, that makes sense. If you had a TARDIS, if you could go anywhere in time and space, where would you go? I don't, I don't know. Where and when would you go? I mean, that's a complicated one, right? Because there's the things in space that I'd like to go see. And then there are the moments in Earth's history that I'd really like to go see. I think space-wise, if I had a TARDIS, first off, I'd probably hit all of the major worlds in our solar system. But who doesn't want to go and hang out on Europa, like looking out at Jupiter

or go see the rings of Saturn. But I'd probably also go to see Mars and Venus when they had water on the surface. That would be really cool. And Earth's history, probably I'd go to see Galileo when he discovered the moons of Jupiter or the Harvard computers. They're some of my favorites. I think I'd go to meet Henrietta Swan Leavitt and tell her all about how her revelation about Cepheid variable stars and standard candles allowed us to see the scale of the universe and tell her how big it actually is. Or maybe I'd go back to meet Hypatia of Alexandria and save her right before she was about to be killed by the mob and take her back to the library of Alexandria in its heyday before everything got destroyed. That'd be pretty cool.

the library of Alexandria in its heyday before everything got destroyed. That'd be pretty cool. You've given this a bit of consideration. I'm going to have to think about it. Can I turn in my assignment later today or next week? You broke my brain. All right. What's our random space fact this week?

Random space fact. That was so sad. The tiniest, most randomest, saddest space fact of all time. It's brilliant. I'm sure you never realized that the number of different actors who played the main Doctor on

Doctor Who is the same right now as the number of moons we know at Neptune. Really? That's wild. I bet there are so many more moons of Neptune that we just have no idea exist. Yeah. No, that's why I phrased it that way. Yeah. Last I checked, Neptune was still holding at 14. Yeah, that's a trip. And also, I guess it depends on how you count the doctors. There's like one doctor in between and the war doctor.

I don't know how you see. You see, I tried to use my words to be precise. Actors, not doctors, unique actors who play the main title, main role of the doctor. I'm not sure quite how to phrase that, but there are many other doctors floating around. And David Tennant did a couple of stints, but basically you got 14 actors, 15 main doctors, as well as all your other doctors, which I'm sure you can tell me how many there have been.

And there you go. That's awesome. Now I'm going to know that forever. One of those numbers will change probably at some point, but both of them, you know, my, but you know,

I shared my biggest connection with Dr. Who being insulted by one of the doctors with another doctor. I pulled out that audio clip. So I'm going to share that with people right after this, because it is pretty hilarious. You want to tell us about it? Yeah, it was Bob Picardo, the holographic doctor on Star Trek Voyager, did the Planetary Post for quite a while with the Planetary Society videos. And I stood in for one of the ones where he was off being Joe actor dude. And then I find out when the show gets edited together, I watch it. And at the end of the show, he's hanging with Sylvester McCoy, the seventh doctor from Doctor Who, I believe.

And they had a little festival talking about me and how great I was. You all count as doctors. Well, if you're going to play it, I won't ruin it. It's magical. I've been insulted by some of the biggest people in the business. All right, let's take this out. All right, everybody, go out there, look up at the night sky, and think about where you would go in time and space All right, let's take this out. All right, everybody, go out there, look up at the night sky,

and think about where you would go in time and space if you were able to putz around in the TARDIS. And thank you, and good night. As promised, here's a short clip from our 2018 Planetary Post episode with Robert Picardo and Sylvester McCoy. Well, Bruce, your performance was workmanlike, convincingly nerdy, but I would call it numb. Yes, and what we want is phenomenal. I mean, yes, you are a doctor, but doctor who? We've reached the end of this week's episode of Planetary Radio, but we'll

be back next week with a peek behind the scenes at the Planetary Society's 2024 Day of Action. If you love our show, you can get Planetary Radio t-shirts at planetary.org slash shop, along with lots of other cool spacey merchandise. Help others discover the passion, beauty, and joy of space science and exploration by leaving a review and a rating on platforms like Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

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So if you have any requests, please don't hesitate to reach out. Planetary Radio is produced by the Planetary Society in Pasadena, California, and is made possible by our members all across space and time. You can join us and help us share the wibbly wobbly timey wimey joy of space exploration at planetary.org slash join. Mark Calverta and Ray Paoletta are our associate producers. Andrew Lucas is our audio editor.

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