Rates & Barrels - The Cards Take Flight, A Playoff Bubble & Zack Meisel Breaks Down a Strange Week in Cleveland

Episode Date: August 14, 2020

DVR and Britt discuss the packed schedule for the Cardinals as they attempt to resume play Saturday, the possibility of a postseason bubble, and Zack Meisel joins the show to discuss the very unusual week in Cleveland after Zach Plesac and Mike Clevinger broke curfew in Chicago. Rundown2:40 The Cardinals' Highly Unusual Schedule7:31 Baltimore's Surprising Start14:14 Surging in San Diego17:38 Appreciating the New Uniforms Around the League23:31 Is It Ever OK To Change Fanhood?28:34 The Viability of a Postseason Bubble39:45 Zack Meisel Explains What's Going on in Cleveland44:50 How Does This Organization Develop Pitching So Well?48:07 Could James Karinchak Take Over the Closer Role? Follow Derek on Twitter: @DerekVanRiperFollow Britt on Twitter: @Britt_GhiroliFollow Zack on Twitter: @ZackMeisel Get 40% off a subscription to The Athletic: theathletic.com/ratesandbarrels Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Rates and Barrels episode number 125. It is Friday, August 14th. Derek Van Riper here with Richard Rowley. On this episode, We will talk about the Cardinals. They are set to resume their schedule this weekend, finally after more than two weeks on the shelf. We're going to discuss how that's taking shape and what that's going to look like, especially as we flip the calendar to September. Jason Stark wrote a great piece

about the possibility of an MLB postseason bubble, and frankly we are a very pro-bubble podcast, so we're going to touch on that later in the show zach meisel joins us to discuss how cleveland has been handling violations of team and league rules thanks to one zach please zach and one mike clevenger the former a little more vocal about what was happening than the latter we haven't really heard a whole lot from clevenger on that situation but uh zach will come on the show to defend himself and prove that

he's not evil because apparently that's something you have to prove if you're part of the media right now. I just don't really understand the narrative of it was our fault. He broke the rules. He didn't kind of break the rules. He was five hours past curfew. It wasn't 20 minutes.

He was alerted. The security guard saw him come in five hours late, told the team, and then somehow it's everyone else's fault for reporting that. As soon as you say something about the media,

as you know, Derek, your Twitter becomes one side or the other. I guess my greatest argument is against us when people say, the world's so much worse with sports media. Yeah, I hate learning about teams I like and players I like.

It's the worst. Yeah, and as someone who has tried to play fantasy sports for like 20 years, I hate knowing why guys aren't pitching when they're supposed to pitch or why they're hurt or anything that's going on. I hate getting more information about the things I enjoy. Exactly.

I hate having a human element to some journeyman reliever and then actually pulling for him to do well. Why would anyone want to do that? It's just so weird. I hate the media. They're awful. It's weird. And you know what? We're good, kind people.

We're going to talk about the good things happening in Cleveland, too. There actually are a lot of good, interesting stories there. That's what we were talking about on this podcast a lot in the beginning of the season was how great their pitching has been. So we will talk about that with Zach as well. It's not going to be just a rip Zach, please sack segment. I do want to start with this Cardinals situation. The first thought I had was, well, that's a lot of games in not that many days. And the second thought I had was, well, that would really suck to have to write game recaps for all those games piled up in that many days. up with the Cubs where they're going to play several doubleheaders. So that's going to be Monday the 17th and Wednesday the 19th. The way this is going to work with the game's not changing

locations, the Cardinals are going to be the home team for game two of each doubleheader. They'll be the road team for game one. So there's not really that much home field advantage right now anyway, other than the comforts of maybe sleeping in your own bed as opposed to the unusual road environments that players have to deal with. There's the same thing kind of happening with a matchup against the Pirates. And there's one coming up against the Twins where they're manipulating off days. I mean, this is chaos. We said one of the worst jobs in baseball right now is schedule maker. And this is going to be a stretch that really is unlike anything we've ever seen before, which, hey, it's 2020.

It's the year of things we haven't seen before. Yeah. anything we've ever seen before, which, hey, it's 2020. It's the year of things we haven't seen before. Yeah, and what's interesting to me, what I kind of agree with, Derek, is the fact that they are having so many doubleheaders so that they can still have some off days because I think, especially this year, right, they've condensed the doubleheader. They've made it less of like,

I'm at the ballpark from 9 a.m. until midnight, obviously making them seven innings instead of nine. Really smart idea this year. They are able to carry those guys on taxi squads. Teams are able to have taxi squads. Teams are able to use like the Nationals and Orioles tonight will play the end of a suspended game and then they will play a regular game and they will be allotted an extra player. So they will have 29 players for the

second game so i think there's a lot to like about managing workloads this year for double headers and i think the cardinals looked at it as okay we cannot go from not playing at all being in quarantine to all of a sudden not having a day off so i think it was smart to say hey we'd rather play some double headers and actually salvage an off day or two than to play from now until the season ends or the postseason ends with not a single day off. I think it's very important for guys as you get into the season to have that little bit of light at the end of the tunnel. It enables teams to skip a guy in a rotation,

give the whole rotation an extra day. It's just so important. To me, honestly, I'm shocked that they still think they can get to 60 or close to 60. I thought for sure they'd be like, St. Louis, you're just going to play 45 games. But I guess it shows

a little bit of the creativity in getting the schedule going and then, of course, it assumes that we don't have any other outbreaks on any other teams elsewhere for the rest of the season. Certainly not a team that plays the Cardinals or that would really throw this whole thing into disarray. Yeah, it does kind of put a little extra pressure on those teams, given how much they're trying

to pack in. The Cardinals are going to be playing 21 games in August, including four doubleheaders, 32 games in September, including four doubleheaders, 32 games in September, including seven doubleheaders. This according to Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic, who has done all the math already on this schedule because Ken is basically a robot, but a friendly robot, a friendly robot. It's really important to point that out. The best robot, him and Jason Stark. Do they sleep? I'm not sure. No one has confirmed. I don't know if anybody in this company actually sleeps. I think everyone is just awake all night thinking about story ideas,

finishing up projects, and just working around the clock right now. The amount of content we're turning out right now as a group is just unbelievable. Yeah. Well, like I told you last night, there were no night games. I was so excited about it. I went to bed at 10 p.m. I watched the Orioles sweep the Phillies, which was remarkable. I hope we talk a little bit about the Orioles, who people didn't think could win 20 games. And they're halfway there at 10.

And there are a few innings removed from maybe winning 11 if they could finish the suspended game tonight. Watch that game. It's supposed to start at 4. I think it started at 545. And after that, I'm like, oh, no more baseball to watch. I'm going to bed. I mean, it's been, you know, as much as this shortened season is condensed,

it seems like every day is worth a week. And it's been fun and thrilling and also just really draining. And I don't know if that's because none of us are used to having a day packed with sports again, right? We're all still in quarantine mode. I don't really know why that is, but it's been a lot of fun. And also, like you said, just exhausting following all these storylines, keeping tabs on everything going on. There are so many fun surprises. As much as we in the media like to harp on the bad news, there are so many

fun teams, the Padres, the Blue Jays, the Marlins, the Orioles. This is going to be a really cool season, I think, if it can continue and if it can actually end with a winner. I think it's just going to be so fascinating to watch. I'm really curious to see

what happens with Baltimore because I think you can do the smoke and mirrors thing for about 20 games and they've done it so far. They're 10 and 7 entering play on Friday. They've got a positive run differential, which is pretty remarkable.

They've scored 96 runs. What's more surprising, if they've scored 96 runs or that they've only allowed 81? Because when you look at this rotation and this bullpen, it's a lot of names that people are not familiar with. I mean, this is a lineup up and down. Like the average baseball fan, if you said, name three Orioles, I don't think you could get three correct answers. As you've watched this team a little bit, what's really stood out to you? Is there anybody that caught your eye and you said, wow, I'm actually impressed. I didn't know who this guy was prior to watching this game,

but he looks awesome. And maybe they've got a couple pieces here for the future. Right. Well, it's kind of cheating for me because I did cover them for nine years. I do know a lot of them. But I think what surprised me, and like you said, is the offense. They've hit a lot, and they've done really well. And this is not like a fluky thing, Derek.

They're playing the third hardest schedule in MLB. They're not playing these total lollipop teams. At home, they're playing the toughest schedule in MLB. And like you said, road home doesn't matter so much this year, but, um, they've really held their own against a lot of really good teams. And I think watching them last night, Jake Arrieta was cruising through the first like five innings. Then all of a sudden he kind of falls apart.

And to me, Pedro Severino, um, is a guy who's had really impressive at bats. Um, I think Ruiz who they have over at third base has been terrific, um, on both sides of the field. I didn't realize how good he was. Um, and I think the danger with a young team is when they start to win like this team has, they've won five in a row, which to put in perspective, they haven't done since 2017. So they've been a bad team here for a while. I think the most dangerous thing for a young team is hope. And that's what they are starting to get, right? They're starting to believe that they can actually win here.

And then you start to see things snowball. And that's the difference. When a team gets behind like that, they were behind last night, I believe. As soon as they get ahead, they believe like that, they were behind last night. I believe, um, as soon as they get ahead, they believe, you know, they believe they can win these games and then they're just piling on these runs later.

The Phillies had to use, I felt so bad. Some kid made his major league debut. He couldn't finish the game. Girardi had to get Neil Walker to pitch to get the last two outs. And you're like, Oh God, bad enough.

His parents can't be here. And now it's going to be a game that he never wants to remember ever. But the Orioles are just pounding these runs on you. You're like, God, I mean, Chris Davis isn't playing because he hasn't been playing well, and they just keep getting these contributions from everyone. And you're right, they're a team of no-names, and I think that's what kind of makes it fun.

And that's kind of what makes the Padres fun is I don't think outside of maybe Manny Machado and Fernando Tatis can a lot of people name Padres either can you really name that many Blue Jays so can we call them the Buffalo Blue Jays because it sounds legit how many Buffalo Blue Jays

minus you know Bo Bichette and and Blatty Guerrero Jr. can you name so that to me has been the coolest part of this whole thing. Yeah, the parity, especially with 16 teams getting to the playoffs, I think is one of the exciting things about this shortened season. But you're right, Pedro Severino has been hitting the ball really well. Rio Ruiz has been hitting.

Hanser Alberto, who kind of broke out last year as an everyday guy for them, he doesn't have a lot of power, but just puts a ton of balls in play. He's off to a great start. Just a lot of things going right right now for this offense. As somebody who covered Chris Davis at his peak, do you feel bad? I know he's making a ton of money and no one feels bad for anyone making that much money

in the grand scheme of things, but do you just feel bad that he's a shell of the player he was at his peak? Because he was a fun player at his peak. We'd love big home runs, and this guy was crushing the ball. He was like a first-round fantasy pick for a few years at his peak, and now he's just kind of a laughingstock.

He's kind of like Bobby Bonilla 2.0 because of the contract, and it sucks for him because everything else for this team offensively is going right, and he's one of the few guys who's not hitting. Yeah, and it's really been the case every year in spring training. You kind of hear, and I haven't been there for a few years, but you still see it. Chris Davis put in the work.

He thinks this is his year, and it very clearly has not been his year for quite a while now. So it is sad. On one hand, good guy, was a guy who was a part of those really good Orioles teams. But when you think about those really good Orioles teams, he wasn't instrumental in any of that success.

The year that they went and ran away with the American League East, he was suspended for Adderall for not getting an exemption. The year that they kind of stumbled into the postseason, he was on that team but didn't have a great year. His best years were in 13 and 15, and those were years that they weren't very good um they didn't make the postseason in either of those years so um yes he certainly was a great fantasy player he's a guy who is always capable of hitting the ball out of

the ballpark but um people kind of equate him with those good Orioles years and he wasn't necessarily an integral part of those teams at all. He is very personable, very vocal, great when he's doing well. I know it eats him alive. He's thought about quitting and all these things that he's not able to live up to that contract. And let's be honest, he never will now live up to this contract. So I think that's unfortunate. But I think he's kind of at peace with it now as he's older.

The last time I saw him last year, he was kind of focused on mentoring guys and offering advice and, and really kind of just enjoying whatever is left, because I think we all know there's going to come a day where they're probably going to cut bait. And I think he knows it. I think the Orioles know it. I think everyone knows it at some point in time,

they're going to say we're okay, absorbing this contract. Until then, he's just trying to enjoy everything that he possibly can. It's a sunk cost, I guess, when you think about it from building a roster perspective. They have to play somebody else in that spot

eventually. The opportunity cost of holding onto him becomes greater as you find more and more players that you actually want to keep around in this organization. I'm skeptical that it lasts, but it's still, it's a good early season story. I think they're probably cut from the same cloth as the 2019 Mariners. I think Eno and I talked about them about three weeks into the season a year ago and we're like, wow, what's going on with the Mariners? Like this is unexpected. And they became like the worst team in baseball from that episode forward for the rest of the season.

It was you guys. Yeah, I think we cursed them. They're like, oh, maybe we overlooked the Mariners. No, we had them about right. They just ran a little hot to begin the season. San Diego, they had a great series this week with the Dodgers. I know that the Padres got blown out by the Dodgers. Mookie Betts had a three-homer game on Thursday night.

I mentioned at the end of last week's show, they're kind of my late-night watch. I just prefer to watch that team because there's something calming about the broadcast but they are loaded and i think one thing that they did that was kind of surprising is they made that trade with the brewers they traded away luis urias they didn't really have a second baseman for a little while after they did it they got trent grisham who i think most famously had that error in the nl wildcard game against the Nats last year. He gets a fresh start in San Diego, and he's opened the year hitting a lot. And that looks like a great deal for San Diego so far. Time will tell what Urias becomes in Milwaukee and how Eric Lauer and Zach Davies factor into that deal as well.

But they've really done a good job of bolstering their lineup and getting guys who get on base because that's one thing that Trent Grisham has always done going back to his time as a prospect. It's something that Tommy Pham does really well. They acquired him from the Rays, and they have that next wave of reinforcements on the horizon. They've already brought up Luis Patino, one of their top pitching prospects. He hasn't moved into the rotation yet, but that's something that could happen over the course of the year. And I just keep wondering if we're at the point now, we're going to see Dylan Carlson probably debut with the Cardinals this weekend. We saw Alec Boehm debut with the Phillies on Thursday night. I wonder if we're going to see Mackenzie

Gore, because the more I look at the Padres, the more I'm confident they're an all-in sort of team for this year. There's no reason for them to hold back. They can hang with the Dodgers. If you had them play the Dodgers 100 times, maybe the Dodgers win 60 of those games. But you don't have to play 100 times to win a playoff series. I think the Padres are good enough to actually push the Dodgers all season long in a 60-game season. I agree. In the beginning, Manny Machado wasn't even doing that well. They were doing really well without him. Now he's kind of stepped it up a little bit as of late. You look at that team and you kind of kept

wondering over the last few years, okay, is this the year for the Padres? Then they'd fall. Is this the year? This kind of seems like finally they're clicking on all facets. I agree with you. The Dodgers are a really, really good team. It's hard to take that series and

say, well, now I don't feel good about the Padres anymore. I mean, I'm still absolutely flabbergasted as to how the Red Sox let Mookie Betts go. Like you watch him play with the Dodgers and you're like, yeah, I get it, especially because Boston has just been an absolute train wreck in terms

of what's going on. I think they might be the most disappointing team because you knew the Pirates were going to be bad, right? You knew some of these teams were going to be bad. I don't of what's going on. I think they might be the most disappointing team because you knew the Pirates were going to be bad, right? You knew some of these teams were going to be bad. I don't know what's going on in Boston, but they never have a mediocre season. They're either absolutely tragic or World Series champions. But when you watch the Dodgers and you watch what Mookie Betts has done already, very, very small sample size, of course, but he's an absolute game changer. He changes the complexion of the lineup. He forces you to think about how to pitch to other guys in that lineup because you know Mookie Betts is in it as well. And it's just a really deep, talented

team. And we've seen that over the past few years. The Dodgers are really, really good every year. And I think for the Padres, to be able to even just hold their own against the Dodgers, this progress. But certainly they need to figure out ways to beat them. They need to figure out ways if they're going to sustain this past the shortened season, they're going to have to figure out ways to not just compete with them, but to beat them more regularly. But I think that watching the Padres, it's just fun. Watching their broadcast is awesome. As you mentioned, they're just a team that to me makes baseball more fun. Watching their broadcast is awesome, as you mentioned. They're just a team that, to me, makes baseball more fun. Those uniforms are awesome. I don't know why they ever got rid

of the brown uniforms. They're just awesome. Some of these vintage uniforms that are in baseball this year have been my favorite. I mean, the Phillies last night with those powder blue unis, I mean, I know I'm getting way off topic here, but those uniforms this year have been awesome. Here's the girl bringing up the clothes, but I'm sorry. It's a really cool part of the game to not see the same boring three colors. Teams are taking risks,

and I, for one, am all here for it. Yeah, I think for the most part, I do like the new uniforms. I'm not such a traditionalist that I'm bothered by the Nike swoosh being on them. Some people are really bothered by that, and I'm like, if you're bothered by that, just wait until they start putting ads on these things because that's coming. That's going to happen someday. But I'm with you on the Padres uniforms. Those are some of the best in the league right now. Do you have any of the new ones that

you don't like? Any of you seniors? What are they doing? I actually feel that way about the Brewers Road Blues. And the reason I don't like them is probably a reason you don't like them. They look like the University of Michigan uniforms. All I see is maize and blue, and I hate it. I absolutely hate it. And I'm saying this as I wear a maize and blue brewery hat. But any uniforms you see and you'll be like, nope, try again. That's just not going to get it done.

Yeah, no, I'm not a fan of that. Because as you know, I went to Michigan State. And I don't even like when I see kids playing with blue and yellow Legos together, like those colors don't go together. Don't start it now. It's too young. Uh, so I had agreed that the rest of the brewers ones though are, are crisp. I think of all the uniforms that I've seen, the Padres are probably my favorite redesign just because I long thought if you can rock the brown and be different and cool, why not? So many teams use navy as their color. It's so tired.

I think the Nationals, of course, with the gold because they obviously won the World Series last year. Just really cool looking to have the gold incorporated in the uniforms for this year. Give them something for heaven's sake. I mean, they couldn't even celebrate their title. They had to get pity claps from

the Yankees on the other side when their banner was raised. So I would like to mention that their gold uniforms are pretty cool as well. But other than that, I don't think I've seen anything where I've been like, whoa, that's awful. Except for, of course, the maize and blue, which don't go together at all. Why

would you even put those colors together, Derek? I don't know. I will never understand. I do like the rest of the Brewers unis. I like the pinstripes they've been wearing a lot at home, and those off-whites look outstanding. So two thumbs up, really, for what Nike and Major League Baseball did with the uniform redesign.

And they got rid of some of the ugly Arizona ones, too, like those charcoal ones. Basically, it looked like everybody was just sweaty all the time. Those were brutal. And they had kind of like a faded thing going on with the legs. Those didn't look right. No, didn't they have like 15? Was it last year they unveiled like 15 new uniforms or whatever? And you're like, all right, you know what? I'm cool with like three or four, maybe once in a while, a different alternate jersey, but you're just getting way too crazy now with like 15 different jerseys, Arizona. I mean, let's focus on the on-field products a little more. Yeah. I think Arizona is one of those teams. I didn't realize this until I went out there a few

times. Phoenix is huge for people who don't know. It's like the fifth biggest metropolitan area in the US, but everybody's from somewhere else. And the teams that are there just feel like they're there on vacation. There aren't that many hardcore fans of Arizona's teams, so I feel like all of those teams actually lack an identity. I know most of those teams are relatively new in pretty much every sport, right? Even the Phoenix Suns, they're the oldest of the professional teams that are out there right now. They haven't been around that long. So you kind of look at these teams and you're like, oh, the D-backs.

I kind of just identify them with the randy johnson kurt schilling teams and the great world series they won against the yankees you know that's kind of like the arizona team that i think of but in terms of like a fan base and a visual identity they really don't have one even though they've had some success right it's the same thing with the florida teams with the marlins and the rays and you know you get a lot of fans that are not from florida that are transplants that root for the Yankees or the Phillies that all have their spring training down there. So it's unfortunate because watching the Rays tattoo Boston lately players who, I mean, you and Eno can name five guys last week, which was super impressive because I don't think most people can. Um, and watching them,

they were the talk of baseball, except nobody really cares. So it's, it's an interesting, uh, dichotomy depending on which team and which fan base and everyone who's a fan of their team. Besides maybe the Yankees is always like our team never gets talked about enough and it's probably true uh but it's

definitely more true when you're part of these fan bases that just don't have that like die hard group of people who are like live and die arizona sports you know it's just a it's just a different vibe well it's crazy too, because imagine if when you were a kid, if your family had moved to Arizona, which baseball team did your family root for growing up? The Yankees. I'm from Connecticut. So it was very... You were either born Red Sox or Yankees. It was a very clear line. But you would have brought that with you to Arizona. No matter what age you moved there, you could have moved there when you were five. You could have moved there when you were 15. It doesn't matter. Your family, they're Yankees fans. You would have moved there when you were five. You could have moved there when you were 15. It doesn't matter.

Your family, they're Yankees fans. You would have kept that, and the D-backs would just be the team that happens to play there. And you'd be kind of mad that they were in the NL, that the Yankees don't go there very often. That's it. That's the extent of it. And you'd say, whatever. I'll just watch the Yankees on TV. I don't have to worry about the Diamondbacks.

Right. Yeah. It's interesting because I've often wondered this too. I've never switched teams. I root for the Bostonbacks. Right. Yeah, it's interesting because I've often wondered this too. I've never switched teams. I root for the Boston Bruins here. We live in the D.C. area and I can't root for the Capitals. Is there a certain amount of time? I'm curious from people who have

and if you have, please tweet at us later. I'm curious. At what point do you become a fan of where you live versus what you grew up as? Is there a certain amount of time? Have you changed? Have you changed from your Brewers fandom, Derek, or no?

So I moved a little bit as a kid. I grew up in West Michigan. We left there after sixth grade, went to Illinois for one year, then came to Wisconsin and lived in the Milwaukee suburbs until I went to college at the University of Wisconsin. So I've been in Wisconsin for most of my life now. And we went to so many Brewers games right after moving here because they were bad. Tickets were cheap. My mom wanted something to do with all of us, so she'd bring us there. And a lot of all-fan giveaways, a lot of beanie babies piled up in the basement from me and my siblings just getting those as a kid. But I think when you're a teenager, you have freedom to pick any team you want. You can change allegiances as much as you want.

I think where I'm in trouble is that I grew up a Detroit Lions fan because of Barry Sanders. And by the time I got to college, I was so frustrated watching football every Sunday that I finally caved in and became a Packers fan. And when you change teams in the division, especially, that's a no-no. And I don't know. I may have done that a little too late. I did that about 19, 20 years old. And i've been much happier watching football on sundays ever since like it was a good life choice but i think people generally frown upon that so i do think there's some kind of unwritten rule about when it's okay to change your allegiance i think if

you relocate though that might be the one time as an adult where it's okay to change and maybe maybe doing it like i did and being kind of a bandwagon fan and ditching a bad team for a good team is, again, a no-no. But if you move to a place like Seattle and the Mariners or who they are right now and you want to become a Mariners fan, I don't think it matters what team you've rooted for at this point in your life. That's true. I mean, if you go to Seattle, you got to go all in on the Kraken too. Oh, yeah. That's a cool team. That's just a cool name. So you go to Seattle, you got to go all in on the Kraken too. I mean, that's a cool team.

That's just a cool name. So I might order their gear and not feel bad about it, but like I can't root for the Capitals. So that's true. I mean, but if the Lions won, would you feel bad? No, no, it's not going to happen. It's like, it's a totally moot point. I don't worry about that at all.

Like I just, I know the Lions, like the years they make the playoffs, you know, they're going to lose their first playoff game. It's probably going to be a blowout. I've seen enough to know they're just one of those cursed franchises, Britt. They're never going to be great. Yeah, I know. I saw enough of it in school. It's really interesting because some people are like,

nope, got to root for my team no matter what. Some people are fine switching over. Some people have AL and NL teams in baseball. I've heard of that too. Well, that way, I mean, this year is weird, but usually you don't have too much of an overlap right they may play each other once every few years um unless they're part of that like rivalry where they always play each other now but you know you ask cubs and white socks

people to change over that's not happening mets and yankees like those people it's like inherited it's like passed down um it basically like is in's wills, I think. You must root for this team. And there's just no real changing over. My wife's family has season tickets for the Packers. So had I walked into that house as a Lions fan, I may not have been welcomed into that house a second time. So it was probably very fortunate timing on my part that I had made that switch before being pressured to make that switch.

But a good choice and one that I will defend even though people are going to rip me forward on Twitter. But let us know, is it okay to change allegiances? I mean, look, teams do things that disappoint us all the time. We're going to talk about that with Zach in just a few minutes. It's just the way it goes. We are going to talk about the post-season bubble here in just a minute. But first, a quick word from our friends at Indochino. Alright, Britt, so Jason Stark wrote a great piece this week, and he took a look at the possibility and the viability of Major League Baseball

conducting the postseason in a bubble. As I mentioned up top, we're pro-bubble here. We talked about how that could actually be part of the plan for 2021 depending on vaccine development and how things are going with the pandemic. It's so far down the road, it's not worth spending a lot of the plan for 2021, depending on vaccine development and how things are going with the pandemic. It's so far down the road, it's not worth spending a lot of energy on that now. But the postseason is actually not that far away. We're about 20 games in for teams that

have been healthy to this point. So six weeks from now, we're going to be looking at playoff baseball getting underway. Looking at Jason's piece and thinking about the logistics of it, do you feel like there's going to be any significant roadblock to actually using a bubble for the postseason? No, I think a lot of the players have realized now that they're essentially creating their own bubbles when they go on the road. I mean, they're not allowed to leave their hotel room without telling the compliance officer. All they do is go to the stadium, to the hotel. So it's essentially like they've created a bubble. All their food is at a hotel. Max Scherzer kind of jokingly referred to it as prison time.

It's hard for me to feel bad for somebody calling the Ritz-Carlton prison time. But, you know, it is what it is. I do think that a lot of these guys are now more amenable to it. And keep in mind, it was the players who did not want it, no part of this bubble. However, it was going to be a bubble for six months. We're now talking about several weeks, right? So I don't see any real issue from the player side at all. I think if you look at the NBA and you look at these other leagues,

you know, women's soccer and how they were able to pull this bubble off with really no COVID news, right? I mean, there was no issue for these bubbled teams. So other than MLB actually executing it logistically, I don't think there's any kind of drawback at all to it. Do you? I don't see it. I mean, I think because the duration of time is really not that long for the postseason, separating players from their families for a month, if they make it all the way to the World Series really isn't that much of an ask. I think you are starting to get that buy-in because for teams that have been more compliant for players it all the way to the World Series really isn't that much of an ask. I think you are starting to get that buy-in

because for teams that have been more compliant, for players who have adhered to the rules, they've realized, look, this is life on the road, but at least we're still drawing a paycheck. We do get to stay in a nice place. And while it's not as fun to be on the road right now as it was in past seasons, this is more good than bad. And I think we're looking at a bunch of different locations.

And the tricky thing here is that with 16 teams going to the postseason, that's eight games per day. So really, there's only a handful of locations that have enough parks close together to where you could actually pull it off. Like in the article, Jason brought up Southern California, because of course you have Dodger Stadium, Angel Stadium, and Petco if you get all the way down to San Diego. The Midwest being an option with the two Chicago parks and then Miller Park. I think that gets tricky because of weather, though. It gets nasty in the Midwest sometimes, even in the late part of October,

so that could be a little bit risky, at least by the time you get to the World Series, though. You do have the retractable roof option in Milwaukee. Out east, New York parks, Philadelphia, D.C., Baltimore, lots of options there. But again, weather, probably.C., Baltimore, lots of options there. But again, weather, probably a bit of a concern. And then Texas, he referred to that as a long shot because you have Globe Life Park and I think Globe Life Field are the two, the old ballpark and the new ballpark in Arlington, plus Houston. But Globe Life Park has been reconfigured for the XFL, which I didn't even realize because the XFL is not happening right now. So it is a little bit chaotic. There are a lot of options and it just seemed like

executives and players, everybody seemed generally positive in the story. It also seemed like from a health perspective, Dr. Zachary Binney has been quoted in pretty much every piece we've had about the pandemic. He's been a great resource to kind of explain what he thinks makes sense. You can kind of do like a road quarantine before going into the bubble, too. So you don't necessarily have to have a prolonged shutdown period when the postseason begins to make sure that everybody gets in without bringing the virus along with them. Yeah, I think Jason did a terrific job with it. And I think a lot of it's going to come down to local ordinances and which states and governors are okay with having that much here. And then, of course, it comes down to money, right?

Like what kind of cut is going to be given to teams and cities and that kind of thing as well. And like you mentioned with guys getting paychecks, they have the added incentive in the playoffs of making extra money. This was what the owners wanted. This is where all the money comes from is the playoffs. And this is all the, this is a chance for players to recoup,

you know, what they lost in salary and teams to recoup what they lost from, you know, chopping off a hundred plus games of the season. So I think there's a lot of incentive to get it done. I think a lot of the things that you're seeing with Cleveland, and like you said, we'll get to this in a few minutes,

but a lot of those rules I don't think are going to be an issue in the playoffs because guys know what high stakes it is. You know, guys know it's just a few weeks. And I think it's going to be a lot easier to pull off than even this regular season has been. So I'm curious to see where it ends up. I think the virus is also going to play a part, right, if California is still kind of dealing with an area where I know in San Diego,

I have family there. A lot of stuff's been shut back down. I think it's going to depend to some degree on what's going on and the control of the spread in those areas. But there are a lot of options, which as you said, there's a ton of teams, but once you get past that first round, all of a sudden it's halved. So it's really only that first week that you're kind of worried about, God, there's a lot of people in this bubble. I think once you get past that initial round,

it's going to be a lot easier for everyone to contain. Yeah, it's going to be a larger geographical bubble, of course, than what the NBA is doing, though. I think they kind of set up the optimal scenario, as we've seen. They've gone, I think, several weeks now without a positive test. So, so far, so good there. It gives us a little bit of hope that there is a way to actually play sports safely. And this statement comes just a few days after a few power conferences canceled their college football season. I've thought about this a few times, Britt. We're not that far removed from college. And how would I have felt? Yes, exactly.

Not that far removed. But I try to think, how would I have felt as a college freshman? University of Wisconsin right now is having kids back on campus. They want kids to move into the dorms because they want to make money. Sadly, that's the main reason. It's not that you can't take Poli Sci 101 online and still get the same benefits as being in a 500-person lecture hall. But that whole rant aside, I don't need to get the ass for the second straight day. I can try to spare everyone from that. How would you have felt as a college freshman a couple of weeks before moving in, knowing that things aren't necessarily safe?

My brain at age 18 was a little underdeveloped. I think there's a nice way to show myself some grace. I probably would have been more than comfortable trying to move in and get out of my life and get out of my parents' house. And that obviously would have been against my better judgment, seeing it as a 35-year-old and thinking a little bit more about how pandemics actually work. But have you thought about that? Just how different your college experience would have been, especially at the beginning, if you were trying to move into college right now? Yeah. Well, I'll be honest with you. My whole college experience, I probably wouldn't have gone to Michigan State. I'm from Connecticut

and I went to Michigan State in part to swim. And if I was going to a school that, who knows now, this is my issue, is who knows now what sports are going to fall as a result of not getting football revenue so are all these smaller sports like swimming for example which is what i did are they gone after a year do i choose to or do my parents say listen don't be an idiot go somewhere in state now you know it's a lot easier that even if they get rid of the swim program it's a lot easier to finance than you going all the way out to Michigan State. You know, so I think about those kids who are dependent on these sports scholarships and these smaller sports. And I think about not just football, but the ripple effect, because football is what enables wrestling to happen and gymnastics to happen and all these other sports. And all these other sports. And I think about the people who otherwise have been working their entire lives and know the only way they can go to college is because they're really good at gymnastics, because they're really good at tennis. And I think about how that affects them as well, because we all know college football is going to be okay. People are going to take hits, but the sport itself is going to survive and it's going to come back. So I guess for me, I would just feel bad for the ripple effect and all the people that this affects beyond just football,

you know, the third athletic trainer who finally got the football gig and how it works. If you want to be an athletic trainer is you start with the small sports and then you move your way up and maybe this is your final year in the program and you were going to be football and it was going to lead to a job as an athletic trainer in sports. And this is just such a thorny, multifaceted issue. And sorry, you probably were like, all right, Brittany, I was just looking for a quick yes or no. But to me, it just affects so many people.

And I myself probably would have gone to a totally different school, probably lived at home at least that first year, and not really gotten the college experience at all. I think back at my college experience, well, it's the University of Wisconsin. If you don't know, people listening out there, it often is the number one party school, number one drinking school in the country. It's not really something to be as proud of as I think we who attend this university have been in the past. I think you realize it's kind of problematic as you get older. You're like, actually, that's bad culture. It's fun and jolly, but there's a dark side to it too. And it might have been better for me to stay home for a year or two and then go to college as a 20-year-old

because I mentally was just not in a good place. I was just so happy to be on my own. And I really do worry for kids that feel the way I did. They get out to school. Like, you know what? This impacts old people more than it impacts young people. I'm going to do what I want because I can see myself thinking that way if I put myself back in the shoes of 18-year-old me. But yeah, in your situation, going out of state, going for a sport, that would have been even more complex. It might have been something you thought about every single day and stressed about every single day until the last possible moment. And then you make this really emotional decision one way or the other. And then you beat yourself up for whichever choice you make for the next month, if not longer. My heart goes out to everybody who's in that

position right now. I know a lot of people have had to sacrifice things. And you sacrificed a wedding this year, right? Like that's a huge deal. Did, eloped. Yeah. I mean, that's a really big deal. So it's just a tough year out there. And hopefully, again, hopefully we're all getting more comfortable.

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He covers the Indians for The Athletic, and he's had a pretty wild week because of some very selfish behavior from Zach Pleasack and Mike Clevenger. Zach, I wanted to bring you on the show mostly so you could just tell people that you're not evil. I just wanted to let you tell your story and explain that you were not out there hiding in the bushes, waiting to see who was breaking curfew in Chicago. You're just doing your job as a reporter by relaying the information as you learned about it. So what happened for those who are not familiar

with the story? What do we know at this point actually took place in Chicago with Plesak and Clevenger? That's the funny part about this is that there's still a lot of pieces missing from the puzzle. We know, we know the two of them went out supposedly with a group of friends and this was Saturday night. Police act pitched Saturday afternoon. Very well. They go out, they come back too late.

Well, we know police act came back too late because MLB security caught him. You need permission to leave the hotel. They didn't have it. They came back after curfew. We don't know what happened with Clevenger. No one's heard from Clevenger. No one's heard his side of the story.

So it's weird. Plesak gets caught for 24 hours. He's the only culprit. And Clevenger, we didn't even know about. Then we find out he was in the team meeting Clevenger we didn't even know about then we find out he was in the team meeting Sunday morning about police act he flew back home on the team plane Sunday night um and someone turned him in or he confessed on Monday morning so like it's still there are gaps in the timeline that would help explain some things. But the bottom line is they broke protocol.

You know, they violated the rules that they helped implement and they signed off on and they championed. So it's, it's, you can't dispute that they erred in judgment. I don't, I haven't seen any reporting that didn't say explicitly what we know happened,

what Zach Plesak admitted happened. I think that's where there's a lot of confusion here. You know, Zach Plesak went on a six minute rant while driving without a seatbelt on, but, and just posted this video saying the media is evil and disgusting what they do. And, but then he admitted that they, he did exactly what they said he did. So this doesn't happen in Cleveland. We don't get this sort of drama, especially this year when the Indians, they've been very stringent. They've taken this very seriously.

Fran Milreis was hanging out with a few friends on July 4th without masks on, and the Indians sent him home for three days until he had two negative tests. So from the beginning, they've been on top of things and all their players have said all the right things. So this is all very surprising and it's made for not just a long week for the people covering it, but even in the clubhouse

where teammates have been audibly frustrated and unhappy. Zach, I know we're not in the clubhouse like we usually are, but what do you get the sense these other guys are thinking? I've seen some quotes and where do the Indians go from here with these guys? What do you think they need to do to

find a way to rectify this at all? The question we've asked is how can they earn back your trust? We've asked that to a handful of players and the sentiment has been we don't know that's on them they've got to prove it to us because i think the frustration stems from the fact that you have you know you can look at the marlins and the cardinals and it's just in plain sight how serious everyone needs to take this.

Because one little slip-up can not just ruin your season, but put the entire league in jeopardy. I mean, the Cardinals have played five games. Other teams have played 20. So you can see what one mistake can do. And so when you have 99% of the players following all the rules, not taking any additional risks, certainly if you have one or two guys slip up,

it is going to be really difficult to mend fences. And so it's awkward. The Indians rotation, forget all the stuff about the health and safety. I mean, we know like Carlos Carrasco is high risk, Terry Francona is high risk. They have other people in the organization who are high risk. That's one thing. And you also don't want to infect anybody. But just the fact that this team is 10 and 9, has the best pitching staff in the league by a mile, and the worst hitting in the league by a mile, you need your rotation to be at full strength and you're not going to have these two guys now.

And if you knew what you were doing was wrong and you came back to the hotel and security's right there and you knew you were past your curfew, you knew you were going to be sent home or you were going to be sidelined. You were going to have to pass these tests before you could come back. You knew it was going to cost you time. And so you're taking this rotation that has put up the best numbers in baseball and you're hurting it. So it's like, if you're a teammate, it's just, you can see, it's so obvious to so many of them what the potential ramifications are from making a mistake, having poor judgment. And for these two guys to do that,

and then also try to pass it off as if, oh, it's not that big of a deal. The media blew it out of proportion. Well, go ask the Cardinals and Marlins if they wish they could have taken back however it is that they contracted the virus. If this had happened prior to those breakouts, I could see that more sort of cavalier attitude

and response, right? But it makes no sense in light of what we've seen happen to those two teams. And as you alluded to, if it weren't for this incident, we'd probably have you on as a guest today to talk about just how great this pitching staff has been. Carlos Carrasco's rebound is a good story. Shane Bieber somehow finding another level is an amazing story. Aaron Savali and Plesak himself, they look like two more success stories from the league's arguably the best organization at developing pitching. How have these guys been able to do it? How have they been able to elevate so many guys to either A status or even in the

case of Plesak and Savali being more like mid-rotation guys than back-end rotation guys? So they have identified... It's one of those things where it's like, why doesn't every team do this? But it's been a process. You know, in 2014, 15, around then, they revamped their scouting process. So it used to be the old school, go look at a guy and, oh, I like this kid, we can sign him, let's draft him. They started collaborating a lot more with player development

because they knew they could take pitchers with certain attributes, add a couple miles an hour to the fastball, teach them what off-speed pitches to throw when, and they would turn into Corey Kluber. Carlos Carrasco was lost for a long time and you know 2015 he became one of the better pitchers in the American League they knew they could do that you know Trevor Bauer Mike Clevenger I mean the list goes on and on so they started drafting guys who fit this profile you see it in Bieber where he's a guy who coming out of college was throwing 90, 91, had incredible command, okay, secondary stuff.

They can make all that stuff better. Now he's throwing 94, 95, and just working with these same player development people, they told him, you know, he's dominating at AA a few years ago, and they said, look, if you're going to make the major leagues, you have to throw a changeup. And he said, well, why do I need to throw a changeup? My ERA is two at Akron, and I'm like 22 years old.

You know, just trust us. Like, we've seen this before. He's like, all right. Like, I might as well. So he starts throwing a changeup, gets hit around a lot. He's like, why did you make me do this? You know, just trust us. Gets to the major leagues.

Changeup is still like his fourth best pitch but um it gives him another element against lefties and it's just things like that where they know what they can work with and make elite and so they find these pitchers who fit that profile and it's as simple as just plugging them into their system and and going from there you know one one thing that maybe it sounds kind of vague and not that interesting, but the way they're able to take data and translate it into a way that's easy for a 20-year-old to digest and understand,

they're ahead of the curve. They're able to use analytics earlier in the process than I think a lot of organizations do. And it's just a matter of, once you see it work with all these different pitchers, I think it becomes easier to do. Yeah. It's really interesting because I think Eno and I have talked about it from a development standpoint. It's like you want pitchers to prepare the same way at low A, high A, double A that they would to face a major league lineup. And it seems like a lot of teams don't necessarily invest their resources quite that way. The other success story really is in the bullpen. James Karinczak is like

borderline must-see TV when he gets into a game right now. He's striking out half the batters he's faced since debuting last season. Brad Hand's actually struggled a little bit. Obviously, a more established closer takes a little bit for him to lose the job. But could we see a changing of the guard? Could Karinczak be the guy who's actually getting saves for Cleveland by season's end? This is a question I think a lot of fantasy owners want to know because you need those saves, but you know Karinczak's probably the better pitcher. The way the Indians usually do this, because this was Cody Allen for a while. Chris Perez was the closer, but I think everyone knew Cody Allen was next in line and had the better stuff. And early on in your career,

before you have any wear and tear and you're still throwing as hard as you'll ever throw, it's a lot more fun to use that guy in the seventh or eighth inning and just whatever the highest leverage situation is. So I think they like that. Their ideal scenario would be Brad Hand figures it out, starts throwing 93 instead of 90, can command a slider, and can pitch the ninth, and then they use Karin Cech wherever they have their most difficult situation. I think they're going to try to go with that approach for as long as possible.

But it's tough. I mean, Cleveland fans have seen it with Cody Allen, with Andrew Miller, with plenty of other guys. You don't gain back velocity like that late in your career when you've had tons of work. And Brad Hand's kind of at that point where you wonder, is he going to have to reinvent himself? Is he just going to have to throw sliders 65% of the time and just hope he can command it and guys can't hit it. Because right now, if you throw 90, guys can hit that. They're going to sit on that. Then you have to throw your slider for strikes. It moves so much. It's hard to do. It's tough. So you're right, though. Karin Cech is fascinating, swearing at himself,

biting his glove, comes into the wild thing song from Major League. It's perfect. That's awesome. Very cool. Well, thanks, Zach. It was interesting to kind of get the update from the Indians. I'm sure it has been an interesting week for you as a beat writer to follow all this stuff and made even worse, I'm sure, by the fact that most people don't realize,

but people like myself and Zach are not allowed in clubhouses. We can't really go near players. To get the tenor of what's going on, to get people to call you back and text you back, is a lot more difficult than it is when they're all stuck in one clubhouse for an hour or two before the game starts.

I've had a lot of Cleveland media colleagues this week text me and say, know this is what it's like to cover the Browns 52 weeks a year every year so it's been an interesting experience well thanks for the time today Zach we really appreciate your insight on

this situation and hopefully we'll catch up with you again soon you got it guys thank you alright Britt so that's a crazy situation right I do think that if you guys had more contact with do think that if you guys had more contact with players right now if you actually had time in the clubhouse and a chance to maybe step aside and say what's really going on that would actually help in a situation like this that might have changed just the way people are viewing the story which is not your fault in terms of like

how it's reported and how it's written. People draw their own conclusions. I think people can look at the story with Plesak and just say, he's a reckless idiot, or he's just a kid being a kid. There's all sorts of different reactions. The opinion is drawn more from the reader or the listener in this case, not really colored by hard facts that are being reported by you or Zach or someone else in that position. Yeah, this is definitely a scenario where I wish you could be in the clubhouse because this is not something that gets resolved over a zoom interview with 20 people. This is a case where you go into a clubhouse,

you pull a guy aside or you're chatting with a guy and you bring it up and you don't need to mention names. You don't need to quote a guy. You're just looking to be accurate. And now that's so much of what we do as writers is going in there and reporting and having conversations that, you know, you don't need to quote guys and guys know that you're not going to burn them. So I think Zach would agree, being in there, being around the team, you know, you'd probably get a little more detail. You'd be able to fill in some of those gaps and present a better picture. But it's 2020, and we are in the world of Zoom

and press conferences, and this is as good as it gets right now. And I don't think – I'm sure Zach Plesak fired up the Instagram thinking, I'm going to make this right. And in fact, all he did was make it so, so wrong. And anyone who thinks that players need more control over how they are perceived, I beg you to watch that video. I'm sure his agent is cringing.

I'm surprised that hasn't been deleted. It's just not really the best way at all to go about things. If you want to issue a statement, if you want to say you're sorry, that's fine. I think the problem lies in him pointing fingers for the first five minutes of that video.

And, you know, like Zach said, it's not us he needs to apologize to. It's not me and you and fans. It's his teammates. And that's something that an Instagram video is just not going to fix. Yeah, we'll see if Mike Clevenger comes out with any sort of statement. Maybe he draws some lessons from the way police acts handled the situation. It's hard to say. Buckle up.

Yeah, buckle up. Like Zach said, Cleveland's not usually one of those teams we're looking at and we're like, yeah, a lot of drama there. They're just a good team that's well run top to bottom. And they're contenders year over year. And they've got exciting stars in the field. They've got great pitching. They tick all the boxes. And this is just very unexpected to see this from these two guys and look we'd be talking about zach plisak and his performance on the mound only if not for his own decisions and

actions over the last week or so that is going to wrap things up for this episode of rates and barrels if you don't already have a subscription to The Athletic, what are you waiting for? Get 40% off at theathletic.com slash ratesandbarrels. You can get all of Britt's articles, get all of Zach's Indians coverage, get our fantasy baseball stuff, read the Jason Stark bubble piece, read all the great stuff that we do. We do as much as

anybody in the business. 40% off is a great deal. Theathletic.com slash ratesandbarrels. If you're enjoying the show and can leave us a great rating and review we really appreciate that it helps new people find the show and as always if you want to email us you can do that rates and barrels at the athletic.com if you want to reach us just spell out the word and don't use an ampersand that is going to wrap things up for this episode of rates and barrels we are back with you on tuesday Tuesday.