Secretly Incredibly Fascinating - Bras!

Episode Date: August 7, 2023

Alex Schmidt and Katie Goldin explore why bras are secretly incredibly fascinating.Visit http://sifpod.fun/ for research sources and for this week's bonus episode.Come hang out with us on the new SIF Discord: https://discord.gg/wbR96nsGg5(Alex’s old podcast hosting service required a minimum of 5 characters per episode title, and he's keeping that going for fun. So that’s why this episode’s title has an exclamation point)

Bras. Known for being supportive. Famous for being secret. Not everybody thinks much about them, so let's have some fun. Let's find out why bras are secretly incredibly fascinating. Hey there, folks. Welcome to a whole new podcast episode, a podcast all about why being alive is more interesting than people think it is. My name is Alex Schmidt, and I'm not alone because I'm joined by my co-host, Katie Golden. Katie, listeners have selected this topic. What is your relationship to or opinion of bras? I've literally never heard of such a thing. I have no idea what you're talking about. That's good. I think I can explain these in detail, uh, from a manful perspective. What would be a word for doing that? What would be a word for that? Yeah. I, you know, as someone who has a feminine body type, I am familiar with bras. They serve a function. And, you know, I appreciate them for that. I do appreciate that, like, they now come in a much more comfortable sort of variety than I think they used to.

I think we used to maybe, like, do sort of a bunch of twigs. That way we would sort of create a box around the rib cage, use some rope and stuff. I don't really know exactly how the old bras used to work, but I assume they were bad. And now you can get a whole bunch of different kinds of bras for different needs, different sizes. And I do, I appreciate the innovation. Corsets, I think, used to be bras, and I'm not about that. I mean, we're probably

going to get into it. I know there's some myths about corsets, but like, generally speaking, I'm happy about the innovation with bras that we have today. Now, if only you could have a bra that had like a built-in speaker and a fan and maybe like a little Pez dispenser. Then I'd be fully happy. Right, like the carification of the bra. That's what we need. Yes, cup holders. It's just all the various features that cars have.

You got cup sizes and you got cup holders. Everything you described about corsets, bras, improvement improvement and materials that's what we're talking about today sweet um and i'm glad listeners picked it shout out to listener peanuts initiative on the discord whose name by the way is a funny reference to a past episode riff and also shout out to jen shout out to fakely shout out to many others on the discord for picking it it was nice learning about this from research. I was not instructed in bras or taught anything about them as a young person and then just kind of allowed to continue not knowing much about them to basically now. I do like the idea of a bras class, like sort of bra 101. Teacher pulls down a diagram. People are standing on desks going,

captain, my captain, tell me, tell me about band size versus cup size. It does sound like one of those direct to DVD National Lampoon American Pie movies, for sure. Bra class 101. And then everybody's making wild YouTube thumbnail faces on the cover. Sounds like a thing. I mean, bras are seen in a variety of ways, right? Like they can be seen as sort of restrictive. They can be seen as sexy. But I think one important thing is just like it is somewhat like a having to do with like women's health and like, hey, you know, we've got some like extra meat up there. What do you do with it to like help support your back and things like that? And do you need to?

And so I think it is it seems like this is a really fascinating topic, although I can definitely imagine sort of a 90s funny movie about the history of bras and then like, what, like, what's his name? Eugene Levy. He'd probably be in it. Oh, yeah. Speaking of bras, he needs support for those massive double D eyebrows. And that, yeah, this brings us into everything, because that's exactly right. There's a lot of practical, interesting stuff here, too. And on every episode, our first fascinating thing about the topic is a quick set of fascinating numbers and statistics. And this week, that's in a segment called...

If you like hearing statistics, or counting stats in the rain. If you see angles in your gut if numbers tickle your brain if you like doing math at midnight and dooms that look like sine waves then zif pot is what you've been looking for listen to it and escape. Do do do do. That song's messed up. The Pina Colada song or something. Yeah, it's about a couple ultimately appreciating each other again, but early on,

no. Right, because it's like they're going to have a secret rendezvous with someone else, but it turns out it's them. Right, but right up until then they're pretty ready to cheat i think yeah so yeah no fun song uh but yeah i'm interested in bra statistics because if you think of a bra it kind of does look like a sine wave and, you know, it kind of goes like, woo. And quick shout out to L.S. Greger on the Discord for making that song

about stats and math. Good job. And we have a new name for that every week. Please submit to the Discord or to sitpod.gmail.com. Make them silly and wacky and bad. A lot of history in this episode. Hopefully it's the right amount of history for folks. And the first number is 1907. I will stop you if there's too much history.

I'll just be like, that's enough history. But go on. 1902? Was that the number? 1907. Yeah. There will be big awooga sounds if there's too much history. It's already too much history because I can't tell the difference between 1902 and 1907.

All right. So we're in, we're in 1907. Yeah. And that is the year when Vogue magazine readers read the word brassiere for the first time in print in the US. Brassiere. Which is a French word. And in 1912, it made its way into the Oxford English Dictionary.

This word brassiere, there's a few various French origins of it. The word origin dates back to medieval armor. And it was a garment for protecting the upper arm of an armored man soldier. And then in the 1800s, it starts getting used as a word for a child's vest. And then in the early 1900s, the U.S. really ran with the word for the undergarment we know today. Huh. I mean, I guess, like, what did we call it before then? It was invented in France slightly before the U.S., and they had a few other French names. One of them was soutien-gorge, and soutien-gorge means either breast supporter or throat supporter, depending on which translation

you're reading. So they initially had this other name for it, but the first U.S. patent in 1914 called it a brassiere, and every U.S. maker pretty much called it that. And by the 1930s, they started shortening it to bra in the U.S., because we don't speak French. We don't need to say the whole word. Because this was like an innovation. We didn't have just like a bra before then. We had other complicated undergarments, I would assume. Yeah, and especially the corset, like you suggested early in the show. Because the next number is 1899. Right before the turn of the century, 1899.

That's when a French department store ad depicted the first modern-ish bra. And the initial name for it was a corset-le-gorge. And the initial name for it was a corset-le-gorge, because it was essentially a corset separated into two pieces without that middle section making it all one thing. Hmm. Say that again, that word, corset-le-gorge? Corset-le-gorge. Corset-le-gorge. Why didn't that stick? Yeah. First of all, this is the part in the show where all listeners should be saying out loud, wow, Alex is amazing at pronouncing French.

He's always been really good at it every episode. And this week, no different. Sorry, is there a Frenchman on the podcast? Alexandre, more like, right? Alexandre. We should have done an episode of a named Alexandre, which is me. But yeah, the French, they essentially developed the bra by modifying corsets and reducing the amount of structure there and having the broad idea of, oh, it can be a piece on the bottom midsection near the genitals

and then a piece on the top sectionsection near the genitals and then a piece on the top section toward the breasts. Great. Ah, OK. So we used to have sort of like a big old thing, like a unit, kind of a unitard situation, a structured unitard situation under there. That seems like hard for potties, gonna say right now, difficult for potty times. Yeah, and this super varied in terms of design and cultural preferences and what people wore.

But in general, this Coselle Gorge came from a French clothing designer named Herminie Cadol, who thought of it. And then there's a Cadol company to this day making lingerie because it was a hit idea. People were like, finally, I, you know, of course it's refined, but now I have this different thing. And it makes sense for, among other things, using the bathroom, which, you know, big secret, but ladies do that, turns out. No, we don't. Okay. Come on now. Take it back. Correction. Correction. And yeah, there's a few sources this week. One of them is the book, A History of the Breast by Stanford University professor Marilyn

Yalom. Of course, it could be a whole nother topic. If people would like it, please suggest it when we do our monthly roundups of topics and votes. And some folks do wear them today, but their heyday was really the 1500s through the 1800s in Europe, and then in places Europe invaded or influenced. And corsets covered most of a woman's torso. It varied how far down the body they went, but they covered most of the torso and they were made of various fabrics, also often stiffened with parts of whales. The flexible baleen material of a whale that was often used for stiffening. They named it whale bone, but it wasn't the bones. It was flexible baleen material that's keratinous. material that's keratinous. And that baleen is like in the whale's mouth and it is this yeah this keratinous material that they use to sift through small marine life like krill and it kind

of looks like it looks like they've got a bunch of like huge broomstick or brooms in their mouth and that helps them filter out seawater. They basically just squish the seawater through these, capture all the krill, and then eat it up in mass quantities. And apparently they also are good at holding up human breasts. Yeah. And this was sort of an accidental use. The whaling industry was mainly trying to get oil and trying to get other fuels. And then as they killed whales, they said, oh, we can also take all these baleen parts and make them into stuff for corsets. And the corset, some people wore them very tightly, especially in modern culture. That's one element of corsets for some people.

Other people, it was a more practical, more loosely worn back and breast support garment. And really two things kind of changed the move from corsets to brassieres. One is the Industrial Revolution, because corsets, when they were especially required whale parts, that was really just for the wealthy people. And then in the 1800s, Sears Roebuck started offering corsets for everyday people that were industrially made. And then the other change is creativity about corsets. Some people wore corsets descending just to the waist, other people all the way to the hips. And then around the turn of the century

here, people got creative. They said, let's think outside it being one giant piece. What if it's a set of things that are more of a modern underwear situation? Sort of like a one is for one boob. Here's another part for the other boob. Yeah, right. And there was less like specific sizing. Yeah. The first soutier gorge advertisement in 1899 had a lot of language relating to corsets. It described it as, quote, not touching the waist.

And also the big selling point was that it was less heavy than a corset. This is kind of how initially people got excited about brassieres that became bras. One of the reasons for bras I had thought was like to help your back not hurt. Yeah. Because like, you know, you need like getting support there. It's like then you have less back pain generally.

But if you have a big heavy corset, you might help with some of the back pain, but then you're still going to add more weight onto your torso. So being able to help with the gravity situation in all respects seems like a good idea. And it's probably like partially aesthetic, like appreciating different sort of aesthetics, but then also developing different ways to kind of deal with keeping, of aesthetics, but then also developing different ways to kind of deal with keeping your back healthy. Yeah. And pre these French bras in the 1890s, that whole history of personal breast support is

pretty under-recorded and under-tracked. With these industrial products, we have catalogs and sales records and stuff. But when you go more than a century ago, a lot of people are making all their own clothes. And a lot of women's history and women's fashion was not recorded by the people writing down generals and wars. And so there's just sort of a hard to track. You can find Internet sources that claim we have a bunch of super solid information about it. But in general, there's just a lot of hard to track personal breast support across history and all world cultures. Yeah, it's because it's called his story, not boob story.

Yeah, I mean, it is. It's like one of those things that I wonder too, if sort of the idea of modesty, like, oh, it's immodest to talk about how I support my boobs. That might have affected sort of how we recorded it in history, because, I mean, on one hand, you might have, you know, people who aren't nobility or rich and then they would come up with their own systems and stuff. And then but nobody really cared as much to listen to their stories. And then once you're sort of in, you know, more nobility, like this idea of like, oh, you have to be modest. You have to be, you know, I want, I just wonder how much that like affected things. Like, well, we, we don't, we don't talk about women's things because that's yucky. The few examples we have, it is that nobility stuff. Like if anybody saved anything, it was a corset for some duchess or queen.

That's not what regular people did when they were working on the farm. No, like ladies are not wearing corsets when they're plowing the fields. That's not happening. I just I just imagined like a farm woman in a corset and then also the ox pulling the plow has a corset somehow. Like it's way too fancy. I don't know how to get there. They both have wigs on. Very fancy.

Picking up a teacup with its hoof like trying to put a corset on a milk cow. It's like, which way do I put it? Trying to put a corset on a milk cow. It's like, which way do I put it? Because the udders are... Shout out to the dog pants question on Judge John Hodgman and elsewhere. What an internet lore. What a thing we all wrestled with.

Well, and next number here, it's going to lead us to a takeaway. It is either 1910 or 1912. Because my sources vary. But one of those years, that's the year when a young socialite named Mary Phelps Jacob refused to wear a corset to a fancy party and homemade a bra. Nice. Wait, she homemade? That homegirl is getting real with the arts and crafts because that's impressive. Yeah.

And part of it is having servants. But, you know. Well, OK. Alex, that makes it a lot easier to make your own bra. You're setting this like impossible standard for us. Like, why don't you just make your own bra? It's like, oh, well, yeah. Just use all your servants you got lying around. Yeah.

That's that's 1910s Americans for you. That was kind of a thing some people were doing. And that brings us to takeaway number one. The modern American bra was partly invented by a young American socialite heavily influenced by France. That sounds like you're saying she's like under the influence of France, like it's some kind of drug. But that so so it's exactly like the myths about absinthe. Like it's a green demon, but also that's France. It's like smoke a little bit of France. You're like, what if we had a tiny corset without all these like hard bones in

it and it felt good on your body? She's too high. She's too high on Paris. Oh no. So, uh, so she, she, I mean the, the design for it had already kind of existed, but this socialite was popularizing it? Yeah, she got the U.S. patent partly because this existed, but was also recent and it just hadn't bled from France to the U.S. yet. But Mary Phelps Jacob was a very wealthy East Coast socialite who got an assist from a French servant. One or both of them was probably influenced by knowledge of French fashion. We can't know how much for sure. But then she went on to really make it a huge U.S. thing. And really these two countries are where we get this garment and the cultural process of it and most of the big companies for it.

So like how did, I'm assuming she made a big splash, like shown up to parties wearing a bra, but how did they know she was wearing a bra? Cause presumably she had clothes on over the bra. Yes. And that's a very fun question. The answer is she basically went around showing fellow ladies afterward, like in gatherings of ladies, which was hugely scandalous, but also popular. People were like, this rules. It's this very rock and roll. That does rule. I, yes, I kind of wish we still had that tradition without it being weird because fellow, fellow boob havers out there must know that it can be tough to find bras that fit well, find good brands. I would definitely like sort of a Tupperware party, except instead of discussing Tupperware, it's like bras that work.

It seems like especially pre-internet, it was just hard to talk about. It was secret, this thing 99% of US ladies do in modern times. Yeah. You also like kind of couldn't talk about it as the sense I get. Yeah. I mean, which is weird because it's like, I mean, we all know we got them, right? Like it's not a secret. Yeah. And this lady was really innovative in that way because she did it and talked about it.

And oddly, my sources varied kind of a lot on the big moment here, but there's one big night. It's either 1910 or 1912, and it was either in Boston or New York. And also with that timeline variation, she was either 19 years old or 21 years old. What you're saying is she's a time traveler. What you're saying is she's a time traveler. Yeah, that or Bigfoot or something. I don't know why this is so vague, but I think it's the wildness of this person and story. It would make sense for Bigfoot to disguise herself as a socialite in the early 1900s.

So it makes sense to me. Time traveling Bigfoot, who was really interested in introducing bras to the women of America. What if that famous Bigfoot picture, the person who took it got a perfectly clear shot and then Bigfoot ran over and said, I wasn't wearing my underwear. Can we please fuzz it? Or like, come on, the camera person's like, I got you. Totally. We'll make it super big. Like, it'll look so big. It's fake. Yeah.

It's shaky because the camera person wasn't wearing a fully supportive bra and their back was giving out. And this story, so the mysterious Mary Ph Jacob, dressing for a high society East Coast party, her and at least one French maid laid out a heavy evening corset and then decided, no, this stinks. And Jacob said, bring me two pocket handkerchiefs, bring me a pink ribbon, bring me a cord. And then the two or more of them stitched together what you think of as a bra, like the handkerchiefs are covering the breasts and they put it together. That's amazing. And I love imagining her being so proud at this party, pulling women aside and saying,

let me show you a little something I whipped up at home. thing I whipped up at home. Right, like it is plausible that a bunch of ladies did this, but only this lady was outgoing and wild enough to show people because we're going to talk later about how wild she got. She's amazing. Oh, I'm excited. I want to know everything about her. I love her already. Yeah, she in her later autobiography, she said that this undergarment, quote, was delicious. I could move more freely, a nearly naked feeling, and in the glass I saw that I was flat and proper. It was like two cherubs upholding each one of my breasts in a heavenly fashion. Yeah. Yeah, and she, like, this was a hit at the party, and she told people or showed people,

then went around showing off this invention at future dressing rooms and social gatherings, like, I think primarily female spaces, but we don't know. And then soon she was stitching more of these for friends, either her or spaces, but we don't know. And then soon she was stitching more of these for friends, either her or the servant, we don't know. But the next date in the story is solid. 1914, Mary Phelps Jacob gets the U.S. patent for what she calls the Backless Brassiere. And so from jump in the U.S., we're using this French name, brassiere. And so from jump in the U.S., we're using this French name, brassiere. I see. I see.

So did she, but she didn't coin the brassiere term, did she? That was already in use? My sources are interesting on this because some of them just say she invented the brassiere, but the name's clearly French. Every story involves at least one French servant participating in the creation of it. And there's printed solid evidence of it existing in France before her. And so it's like somewhat fair to say she invented it in the sense that she holds the U.S. patent and really popularized it among fancy people in the U.S. But she also clearly got some minor or major inspiration from French people.

It's kind of like how pommes frites became French fries in the U.S. Freedom fries. We invented those. Freedom fries. Thank you. Freedom fries. Yeah. No, I forgot.

They are freedom fries. And this here bra is a uh freedom breast device i'll end it in a lot of eagle sounds which are a hawk i think secretly but yeah it is secretly red-tailed hawk sounds usually the the majestic eagle cry but do a real bald eagle cry because those are cute. Those are like. Shout out to the greatest audio game and experience in podcasting, which is the animal noise game and creature feature. It's so good. Folks, if you haven't heard it, get on it. It's great.

Hey, that's my podcast. Wait a minute. Hold on a second. And this is the sound of the great american brassiere then awuga awuga it's the wolf's eyes that would be pitch for an april fool's creature feature you do it about that wolf in cartoons who's wearing a big suit and hat. Like what's his whole deal? How is that a thing broadly? Yeah. I mean, I think he's

just, he's supposed to be sort of like, you know, a cad, like a wolf is supposed to be, you know, like basically like a sexual harasser, but in Looney Tunes form. So it's fun. Yeah, it's true. And it's a wolf, so it's not a human, more obvious criminal. Yeah. But yeah, and Mary Phillips Jacobs, she also oddly didn't cash in on this much. She, I think, was just too high society and fancy to bother. She sold her patent

for $1,500. In old-timey money, that's money. But she sold it to a company with a funny name to me. It is the Warner Brothers Corset Company. It all's coming together with that cartoon wolf, man. I think that primed me to think about cartoons, yeah. And then Warner Brothers made a multi-million dollar product line in old-timey money and spread it nationwide. So even her intellectual property is the spark here. Is this the same Warner Brothers as cartoon Warner Brothers? It's different guys named Warner, yeah. And the company's called like Warnico now. They had to separate it from the movie studio and Looney Tunes.

How many brothers named Warner did stuff in early industrial U.S. history? Too many. But I only know two. So, yeah, and that's that's Mary Phelps' role in what became a very common U.S. situation and still spreading the French part. But she did autobiography herself as the inventor. At one point she wrote about herself, quote, I can't say the brassiere will ever take as great a place in history as the steamboat, but I did invent it. So also some steamboat stuff. Yeah, I think the brassiere actually outlived the steamboat. I love her chaotic party energy. It's like someone like pulling you aside at a party and be like, check it out. I just crocheted

a tampon and it's, it's just, it's so good. I, I want more of this energy at modern day parties. I want homebrew type of underpants that also like mists you with air freshener every five minutes. I love it. Yeah. That, that might be her greatest contribution is explicitness and openness in her personal life. Cause there's a whole nother takeaway worth of it. Here we go into takeaway number two. The lady who sort of invented the bra led an astounding wild party life. Mary Phelps Jacob is known by multiple names because there's a real progression here. And the bra is almost a footnote in terms

of how interesting she is. She's also known as a party animal, as the vape queen. Let's see what else. Mary Phelps, Mary Jane, so many things. Kind of wilder. The main name she gets known as is Caress Crosby. Her first name is Caress. She invented it. Is it because she caressed people or? Yeah. And I think she picked it because it was the less sexual of her two ideas. Her other idea for a name was Clytoris.

Oh, nice. Oh, I love this lady so much. And it was, it's spelled C-L-Y-T-O-R-I-S, but it meant what it means, you know? Come on. God. Oh, that is better than Pussy Galore. That is so good. Yeah.

And she ended up naming a dog Clytoris and herself Caress Crosby. Like she was real into and really going for it in the 1920s. You know? I love her. I love her. I want to get a Ouija board just to be best friends with her. This is amazing. Yeah.

This is my dog, Cly. Clytoris. This is my dog, Clyde. Clyde Doris. The topic of bras led me to maybe the most amazing lady in American history. Because here's her progression. She, in 1914, patents the bra. Already great accomplishment.

Go on. Right. Like, could have stopped there. But shortly after that, appears to be going into a very regular rich lady life. She marries a wealthy Boston man named Richard Peabody and then takes on the nickname Polly has two children. It appears she will be a Boston housewife named Polly Peabody. Then, 1920, she meets and sweeps off his feet a World War I war hero who's much younger than her named Harry Crosby. Like, sweeps a war hero soldier off his feet when he's back from France. I mean, all she had to say is,

I got a dog named Clytorus, and who wouldn't be swept? I'm being swept off my feet, and I'm not even a war hero. Yeah. And within two weeks, Polly Peabody abandons her husband, gets her kids, and then she and her kids and her war hero lover moved to Paris, France, and she makes him the stepdad and they set up a whole different life there. She adopts the name Caress Crosby and gets the dog and is just like, boom, here we go. We are the biggest party animals in 1920s Paris. That's our life now. Normally, I'm not in favor of abandoning your husband in order to go party with your dog named Clytoris and your kids and your new arm candy war hero boy toy. But I know that the state of marriages in the early 1900s were probably like bad. So, you know, hey, do what you got to do, my lady.

So, you know, hey, do what you got to do, my lady. Yeah, I think they really opted for like I think they decided marriage stinks in this era. We're going to rethink everything about how we can live because they they put together a life in 1920s Paris where they throw lavish parties full of gambling and drugs. And then Harry also gets a high paying job at the Paris operations of JP Morgan Bank. But then his daily commute is Caress rowing the two of them down the Seine River in a boat. And apparently Caress went around telling people she did the rowing because it was good for her breasts and made them bigger and more amazing. Oh, my God. Oh, this lady. In the 20s.

This lady. This is, God, okay. She's. It's so cool. I mean, I do like the idea that you can, like, make your boobs bigger with rowing. You cannot biologically do that because breast tissue is mostly sort of adipose tissue as well as melt glands. However, you can strengthen the muscles under the breasts. And in that way, if you really all she's not making her boobs bigger. She's getting massive pecs. And that's making her chest bigger because she's swole now.

Like she's just yoked and has boobs over being yoked. Yeah. And this was in flapper times when ladies were supposed to be a tiny stick. And she was like, no, I'm going to row my husband to work down the Seine River. Yeah. Great. I'm going to. Awesome. was like no i'm gonna yeah row my husband to work down the sen river yeah great i'm gonna i'm gonna awesome my i i love that like her war hero husband is her arm candy on her massive guns like next time you go to war take these guns with you and And she just flex, flex, flex. Incredible. Love her.

Yeah. And like another thing they did, it's, it's really hard to understate how wild and cool this lady is. She and Harry said, our love poems to each other, because we're writing love poems to each other. These are so good. They need to be published. And so they start a publishing house. these are so good they need to be published. And so they start a publishing house.

Their publishing company is called Black Sun Publishing, proceeds to also publish the work of their good friends. And they are friends with Anais Nin, D.H. Lawrence, James Joyce, Ernest Hemingway, Salvador Dali. They become, just because they need to show people their love poems, they become a major and influential Paris publisher and like prime expat time. That is such a complicated and high effort version of PDA. I'm frankly impressed. I'm usually uncomfortable with PDA, but when you start publishing your PDA and like joining elite writing circles to talk about how hot you think your husband is. Uh, and like, yeah, that's again, Cleetaurus. No, no. What was her name? Clytaurus. There we go. And that's the pronunciation I picked. Like,

I don't know, but it seems like it with the Y. So, yeah, it's great. That dog's just hanging out like, hi, Ernest Hemingway. Fantastic. I mean, this was like for context, this was a period of time where it's like as women, it's like, oh, you're not really supposed to enjoy sex. You just are supposed to like basically be there for the man to perform your wifely duties and pump out a bunch of children so like to frame like name her dog to frankly talk about her breasts to show off her cool handkerchief bra row her war hero husband down the Seine while developing massive guns. This is quite bold

of this lady. Yeah, and her boldness, we have not fully covered yet. Apparently, one of her top parties was she showed up to an event for l'Académie de Beaux-Arts in Paris. She enters the building wearing a turquoise wig and no top at all and allegedly was riding an elephant. That seems implausible, but this is the level these people reached. I believe it. It's Mary Phelps Jacob. I believe it. Yeah, right. Yeah. And then apparently both of them had other lovers, hopefully in a positive way. It seems like they could have been into that. But one night in 1929, Harry Crosby and his mistress apparently had a bad night in New York. He shoots her and then himself. Oh, dear. But don't worry. Still got plenty of murders going on. Yeah.

Doing a lot of that. Yeah. And then she goes, she pursues other relationships. In particular, she has a long romance with a black American actor named Canada Lee. And she does this while there are enforced laws on the books in the U.S. against interracial relationships. It was legally risky to do that. And they in the U.S. against interracial relationships. It was legally risky to do that, and they did it anyway. And then the rest of her life, she splits time between the U.S. and Italy and tries to turn a 15th century Italian castle into an artist's colony.

Fantastic. And apparently when she was visited by a documentarian and she was in her 60s, she flashed her breasts at the camera and she was carried around in a sedan chair custom built by architect Buckminster Fuller. Her life is all these totally implausible statements that there's probably too many stacked up. It's probably just washing over you, the listener, but it's pretty great. I'm sort of just like sitting here slack-jawed, stunned. I think we need to rename the podcast Secretly Incredibly Mary Phelps Jacob.

Yeah, that's the show now. Sorry, Captchas is an upcoming topic. The show is just her now. Yeah, forget it. Documenting all the time, she flashed her breasts at people, which she seems to love to have done a lot. I guess it really seems like that helps popularize the bra and, you know, in a lot of ways support ladies' chests in a functional, helpful way. Like that this lady was open enough and exciting enough to say breasts exist basically, right?

Like that, that's kind of been a little touchy to this day as a thing to do. And, and she was into it a hundred years ago. Breasts exist, girls pee, and the pee does not come out of the vagina. I've just clarified so much for like so many listeners I'm gonna load that with takeaway horns every word it's a new a new revelation amazing but folks again that was quite a bit it's all wonderful and we're gonna return with a few more numbers and takeaways once we uh kind of recover and take a breath. Hey, folks, happy summer. Maybe you're doing cookouts. Maybe you're doing dinner parties.

Maybe you're doing events where you want to bring a nice thing. What if you brought a fresh loaf of sourdough bread that you just threw in your oven before the event, right? That would be a dream situation. People would be like, oh, you were probably up for days harvesting grains and pounding them into a thing and a starter culture you maintained as well. Blah, blah, blah. Wildgrain makes this incredibly easy. Wildgrain is the first ever bake from frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, also for fresh pastas, also for artisanal pastries. The three best foods, sourdough breads, fresh pastas, artisanal pastries. They also do more than that. They add new and seasonal and limited time stuff all of the time.

They did send us brownies one time. They did send us macarons one time. Wow, look at me pronouncing more French stuff incredibly effectively. The bleu macaron. Perfect. So I highly, highly recommend enjoying this meal delivery service where suddenly amazing breads and pastas and pastries are at hand all of the time in your freezer. Plus, for a limited time, you can get $30 off the first box, plus free croissants in every box, when you go to wildgrain.com slash sifpod to start your subscription. You heard me right, free croissants in every box, and $30 off your first box, when you go to wildgrain.com slash sifpod. That's wildgrain.com slash sifpod, or you can use promo code sifpod at checkout. I'm Jesse Thorne. I just don't want to leave a mess. This week on Bullseye, Dan Aykroyd talks

to me about the Blues Brothers, Ghostbusters, and his very detailed plans about how he'll spend his afterlife. I think I'm going to roam in a few places. Yes, I'm going to manifest and roam. All that and more on the next Bullseye from MaximumFun.org and NPR. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory.

The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. No running in the halls. And we are back with many numbers still to go, because the next number is 1925. Is this when Mary Phelps Jacob flashed her breasts again? Almost definitely.

But meanwhile in New York, two dressmakers founded the Maidenform Brassiere Company. Oh, I've heard of Maidenform. Like, they're still around, I think. Yeah, it's a known brand, and it was actually meaningful in terms of how bras have worked for ladies. Because this was founded by two women, Ida Rosenthal and Enid Bissett, who were dressmakers in New York. And they founded it to accommodate a kind of bras that were not being made, which is basically comfortable ones. Because a whole nother takeaway here, takeaway number three. Bras are one way of tracking societal trends over time in breast shape preferences.

Huh. There has been a sometimes positive, often negative thing of bras being kind of a way of society saying, hey, your breasts should look this shape. Right. Seems like it fluctuates a lot between like, we don't want to see them. We want to see them. We want to see them. And it'd be nice if they were a different shape. Can you turn them into a cube, ladies? Yeah. And Maidenform ends up being on kind of all the sides over time. Yeah. Because it turns out basically starting in the 1920s, when the US says, hey, ladies, you can buy a bra easily. Apparently in the 1920s, the first bras were used to restrict and flatten out breasts and make them appear to not be there. Because especially the flapper style, they were supposed to have what's known as a boyish look and they wanted like jewelry to hang straight down a flat body. And so restricted bras were all the rage. Maidenform gets founded to make bras

that quote, support the bust in a natural position. I see. Interesting. So just kind of creating cups that the boob just kind of like, for lack of a better term, flops right in there. Yeah. Like when, when they started their company, most bra makers were saying, don't worry, we'll completely press in and conceal what you've got. And they said, what if, what if we just want to be like, oh, that's, that's weird. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I mean, that's nice. I feel like, I don't know. I feel like it should, you should be able to do what you want. Like have them flopping out there, have them supported, have some struts in there or squish them down if you want to. I feel like it'd be nice if it could be to each their own yeah totally and this episode can't cover all the ways bras are used for various styles and feelings like it's just too vast like many topics on the show are vast but this this choice by maiden forum they became either the first or second company to develop lettered sizes for bras because they were starting to say, what's your deal? Let's meet you there.

Right. That was kind of a step that needed to happen in bra making. That's what happens every time I walk into a bra shop. The attendant comes up to me and goes like, what's your deal? She just gestures at me generally. It's your deal what's she just gestures at me generally it's like what's going on here tell me about this mess explain this mess to me i knew i knew how ladies talk nice very on top of it and yeah and then maiden form also kind of ends up going the other way, because from this 1920s events, there become various trends in a societal pressure on especially U.S. ladies to do the bra shape that is on trend and the breast shape that is on trend. Right.

So Maiden Forum, especially in the 20s and 30s, is doing a relatively natural look. Then in 1949, they spark a global trend with a new design called the Chansonette. And the Chansonette gets better known by its nickname, the Bullet Bra. Ah, I know these. Yeah. Yeah. Because they shoot bullets. Right. The Fembots and Austin Powers famously. Yeah. Yeah. Because they shoot bullets. Right. The fembots in Austin Powers famously. Yeah. Yeah. Documentary Austin Powers,

also known as like the only form of sex education our kids need. Yeah. This bra, I do kind of know it from movies. Like if people know 1950s actresses with apparently massive chests, it's because the bullet bra simulated a larger breast and with like a point on the front. They're very conical. from then in like sweaters and then basically triangular shapes are under the sweater and it's because that was the bra style and the new trend was like oh your breasts are supposed to be that shape now your breasts are supposed to be sharp and capable of slitting someone's throat that was the style yeah like maryland yallam's book describes the shape as torpedoes. Yeah. And this got exported nationwide and worldwide. In the first 30 years of the chancenet bullet bra, Maidenform sold 90 million units

and sold them in over 100 countries. Wow. Like a bra company said, now this is normal. And everybody fell out along. Man, I see this so much with pants. It's like, oh, it's supposed to be high-waisted. Now it's supposed to be low-waisted. Nope, now it's supposed to be high-waisted.

Big bottoms, like pencil legs, denim with rips. No weight, no rips. It's maddening. And I guess that happens with bras as well. And it seems to especially happen with women's clothing. The main men's analog I can think of is basketball shorts like there was a time when they were super tight and short and then it shifted to i'll link a picture of basketball player eric snow who famously wore some basketball shorts that are basically to his ankles and diaphanous.

They're really amazing. Fantastic. The reason I laughed at basketball shorts is I was thinking of like a bullet bra except for on the butt, like a bullet butt. It's like, this is how we want our buns to look on the court. And it's just sharp. Really makes it easy to sort of like you know if you're trying to block someone from the hoop and you gotta if you got a bullet butt and men are like i like the word bullet that's war stuff great great great they're just all buying it up yeah yes my plans my plan

to have men have conical butts uh is coming to fruition yeah, and then there's kind of too many to name. But from there, the following decades have seen waves of now your bra should make your breast look like this and like this and like this. 1960s, they rolled out invisible bras, quote unquote. 1970s was the debut of sports bras, which have a specific purpose and also flip it back to restricting. 1982, the first Victoria's Secret store opens. In the 1990s, fashion models rediscovered a vintage bra called the Wonder Bra, which was the first big push-up bra, went on sale again in 1994. for. And that evolution in bra styles, bra shaping of the body continues to this day. There's bras made with an awareness that gender is a spectrum. There's bras made with an intention of revealing the bra outside of the rest of the clothing. There's too many to name, and it's one of these humongous topics on the show where we don't hit everything. I feel like now, I guess I'm not like super up on bra fashion.

I don't really know what the current trend is. I just assume like boob shaped. I don't really know. Like I think it's a, I think there's a lot more kind of like variety that is acceptable now. Like I don't see bullet bras. I don't see like, there's a lot of like, either like sort of push-up bras or more sort of a flat chested look. Like I think both of those are pretty in. Like I don't know that there's too much of a difference there.

In a way we can't track, I really feel like the internet revolutionized this too. Because then you can shop so much more widely, you can shop anonymously, and you you can shop anonymously and you can talk relatively anonymously with other people like that. It's it has, I think, ended a hegemony and monolithic bra culture in some ways, which is great. Yeah. I mean, I think I guess one of the trends now is that sports bras are fashion now in a way, like because of fitness Instagram, sports bras maybe used to be more of a just like pure practicality you would wear under your shirt.

I think there is something of a concept of sports bras are just there for modesty. I don't think that's true because like if you're doing a lot of say intensive jumping or running that can actually be difficult if you've got gravity affecting your boobs at a different rate as the rest of your body so they are actually very practical for sports and we'll we'll do more about sports bras and the bonus especially and in particular athlete brandy chastain. Oh, I think I met her. Oh, that's awesome. Either I met her or I went to a field where she was at and we learned about her or I met one of her teammates. Honestly, when I was a kid, I was so not into sports.

I couldn't comprehend sports at that age. I was just like, ball, look at that ball going around and you're kicking it. That's pretty neat. She and her husband are Californians. So it's totally possible. Yeah. Okay. I think I did meet her. Um, and my memory of that day was just like, I don't think I could kick the ball that good. So I tuned everything else out. think I could kick the ball that good. So I tuned everything else out. And there's one more number here and then a takeaway after, but the last number is September 7th, 1968. Because September 7th, 1968 is the date when a couple of real bra burnings also developed like a massive cultural almost myth about the prevalence of bra burning.

Right. Our key sources are Teen Vogue, which does very good journalism, and also the BBC with Modern Reporting that put this in context. September 7th, 1968, a feminist group called New York Radical Women went from New York to Atlantic City to protest outside the Miss America pageants in 1968. With the idea that Miss America is objectifying women? Primarily that and then also some intersectional stuff, including the racism of Miss America. Ah, yeah, that makes sense. It was segregated until 1940. As of 1968, every winner had been white.

Yeah. There'd even been some Jewish women kind of sidelined in the competition for being Jewish. It took a long time for anybody not white and nominally Christian to win it. Interesting. I'm sure that was just coincidental. Yep. That's just objectively who was the most America of all the misses each year. Yes, exactly.

It's an honest and very objective scoring system. And so this protest, they had a lot to say, right? It wasn't just about bras. And the centerpiece of their protest was an item that they set up and called the Freedom Trash Can. And this was a trash can that they basically wrote freedom on. And what they did is they filled it with, quote, instruments of torture, such as brassieres, girdles, high-heeled shoes, false eyelashes, and magazines such as Playboy and Cosmopolitan. I mean, all of those can, in certain contexts, definitely be used to torture someone. And I can creatively think of ways one could.

No, but I get it. High heels are painful. And I mean, it seems like they're being a little tongue in cheek here, like like they are protesting. They're also being kind of like tongue in cheek where it's like, hey, these things are obnoxious. We're going to get some attention for our protest by, you know, putting them in this trash can and burning it. I think people sometimes will look at a protest and they're like, why are they being so weird? Why can't they just like calmly state their desires? And it's like,

because they won't get any media attention if they calmly are like, hey, I'd like people to respect women more, please. No media attention. And so that's why protests can be weird and wacky. Exactly right. And that explains all of this. They were trying to be noticeable and creative even. As they threw stuff out, a few ladies continued the creativity and said, let's burn some of the items. Various items got burned. It's believed at least one bra did actually get burned.

That wasn't just completely fake. Rest in peace, little bra. All you were doing is trying to support boobs and you're caught up in the moment. From there, this gets national and global coverage and kind of cuts both ways. Like, bra burning becomes a stick that people use to hit feminism with. Like, it's like, oh, this means they're crazy. Yeah, like, look at these crazy chicks burning bras all the time. And in some ways, it made feminism

almost more rock and roll and cool. It is pretty metal. Before this, one of the main examples of feminism in people's minds was, like, 1920s suffragettes in stern black dresses and stuff. And so events like this kind of created an idea that feminists could be exciting and modern in some ways.

Yeah. Burning, trash can burnings are always exciting and modern. But yeah, I mean, again, like this is like the thing where it's like, yeah, they have to do something kind of wild and crazy to be noticed by the media. And it's going to always come with pushback. But one could argue that it's better to get some as long as you're not like hurting anyone. Yeah. It's like you're getting attention to your cause. And even if you get some blowback, maybe that attention is worth it.

That's right. And in the end, with the bra specific element, it also pointed to this real thing. It criticized this thing of some bras are being used to make people feel like their breasts need to be shaped a certain way or presented a certain way. And so simply not wearing them was more common, but the occasional burning to it pointed to that idea, that real thing that was worth criticizing. It's definitely something where it's like you should be able to wear it or not wear it depending on your needs. Or burn it, especially if you're cold and you need to burn something for warmth and all you got is a bra.

Well, and then there's one last takeaway for this main show, and it's quick and it's amazing, because takeaway number four. During World War II, American bra companies pivoted to making parachutes and also making cute jackets for carrier pigeons. Okay, good. We're at the pigeon straitjacket. I'm glad to hear that it's not a pigeon straitjacket, that it is. We're not throwing pigeons in an asylum here. Yeah, and we'll have a picture linked mainly from the Smithsonian National Museum of American History. Because in World War II, the Maidenform Company made over 28,000 vests for carrier pigeons.

And this was primarily a protective vest so that if a paratrooper descended into Europe holding a carrier pigeon, it would land safely with no harm because it had cushioning and protection. Oh, it's like a baby Bjorn for a pigeon. Yeah, yeah. You know, Maidenform makes stuff that supports stuff and they supported the pigeons. It's great. Yeah, yeah.

And then the pigeons also get like little bullet bras so they can look hot while they're doing their duty. Yeah, and I also like that these pigeon vests are part of the effectiveness of carrier pigeons in World War II. The Smithsonian says about 56,000 carrier pigeons supported the U.S. military in World War II, and more than 95% of the messages that they carried were successfully delivered. of the messages that they carried were successfully delivered. This also tied into broader World War II resource rationing stuff, because we haven't talked much about what bras were made of over time, but a lot of the early ones used rayon. Rayon was developed around the year 1900. A lot of them used silk, which had been around for a long, long time. And then in 1938, the DuPont company debuted nylon. And a lot of bra makers used those three fabrics, rayon, silk, and nylon.

But then those were needed for war purposes. And so many bra makers pivoted to making parachutes. And then Maidenform made enough vests to outfit half of all carrier pigeons in the U.S. military in World War II. Wow. On the flip side, women used recycled parachutes as bras. No, I made that up. It's that rainbow and white color of grade school parachutes today. It's a pretty good look. Maybe it's good. Fun. today like it's it's a pretty good look maybe it's good fun it's like honey your your chest seems a lot more uh aerodynamic than usual a lady's like hey this is my bra size and like we only have the parachute size which is the weight of an adult man. I'm sorry. Hey, folks, that's the main episode for this week. Welcome to the outro with fun features for you such as help remembering this episode with a run back through the big takeaways.

for you, such as help remembering this episode with a run back through the big takeaways. Takeaway number one, the modern bra was partly invented by a young American socialite, heavily influenced by France. Takeaway number two, the lady who sort of invented the American bra led an astounding life under the name Caress Crosby with a dog, Clytoris, and so many other stories. You might want to re-listen to that part. It's just great. Takeaway number three, bras are one way of tracking society's trends and pressures for breast shape preferences. And takeaway number four, during World War II, American bra companies pivoted to making parachutes and making cute jackets for carrier pigeons. to you right now if you support this show at MaximumFun.org. Members get a bonus show every week where we explore one obviously incredibly fascinating story related to the main episode, and this week's bonus topic is the amazing timeline of sports bras. We look at that

through two stories, the 1999 Brandy Chastain soccer goal celebration, and an internet myth about ancient Minoan bras. Visit sifpod.fun for that bonus show, for a library of 13 dozen other secretly incredibly fascinating bonus shows, and a catalog of all sorts of MaxFun bonus shows. It's special audio. It is just for members. We thank you for being somebody who backs this podcast operation. Additional fun thing, check out our research sources on this episode's page at MaximumFun.org. A couple of very handy books this week, in particular, A History of the Breast by Stanford University history professor and gender studies professor Marilyn Yalom. history professor and gender studies professor Marilyn Yalom. Also a lot of amazing online material in particular from the Smithsonian National Museum of American History and Teen Vogue. Shout out Teen Vogue. Just really good. That page also features resources such as native-land.ca.

I'm using those to acknowledge that I recorded this on the traditional land of the Canarsie and Lenape peoples. Also, Katie taped this in the country of Italy, and I want to acknowledge that in my location and in many other locations in the Americas and elsewhere, Native people are very much still here. That feels worth doing on each episode, and join the free SIF Discord, where we're sharing stories and resources about Native people and life. As I tape this, we are on there talking about Native-owned and Native-led companies that make outdoor gear and also some outdoor bison meals, which are cool. I never would have known that without the Discord. So thank you, folks. And if you listen and want to join, there's a link in this episode's description to join the Discord. We're also talking about this episode on the Discord. And hey, would you like a tip on another episode? Because each week I'm finding you something randomly incredibly fascinating

by running all the past episode numbers through a random number generator. This week's pick is episode 137. That's about the topic of pickles, as in pickled cucumbers specifically, because fun fact, the pickled cucumber and the regular plain cucumber have totally different world and cultural origins. So I recommend that episode. I also recommend my co-host Katie Golden's weekly podcast Creature Feature about animals and science and more. You know, there's that animal noise game and stuff. It's awesome. Our theme music is Unbroken Unshaven by The Budos Band. Our show logo is by artist Burton Durand. Special thanks to Chris Souza for audio mastering on this episode. Extra, extra special thanks go to our members. And thank you to all our listeners. I'm thrilled to say we will be back next week with more secretly incredibly fascinating. So how about that? Talk to you then. Maximum Fun.

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