Small Town Murder - #455 - An Explosive & Terrible Mystery - Catalina Foothills, Arizona

Episode Date: January 11, 2024

This week, in Catalina Foothills, Arizona, a wealthy, and well connected couple of socialites are the subject of a murder, so awful & violent, that pieces were thrown 100 yards from the scene. Was it the mafia? Angry business associates? Little old ladies who have been bilked for their savings? An ex? The possibilities are endless, but after a psychic, and some found audiotapes, a positively devious plot unfolds!Along the way, we find out that Tucson is less desirable than Phoenix, that the mafia wants you to actually pay them the money that you owe, and that you should never tape your post murder talk!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. What if you married the love of your life and then stood by them as they developed 21 new identities? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Listen to the newest season of This Is Actually Happening on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Catalina Foothills, Arizona, a couple of very well-connected and wealthy socialites are the subject of a twisted and brutal murder plot that leaves one of the

pair blown to pieces. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Yay! You know, like an episode of Clue, basically. This is going to be wild, except with an awful explosion. It's crazy. We'll talk all about it. Before we get to that, though, definitely want to say thank you for all that you do for us. Thank you for 2023 and all the years before.

But we are excited. Happy New Year to everybody. Josh, shut up and give me murder.com. Head there for tickets. All the tickets for 2024 are on sale. We're in 12 cities. Everything's on sale. And a lot of them are literally pretty much gone right now it's unbelievable i think phoenix all we have left are our reserve tickets that will release some of but we have family there so that's pretty

much sold out pretty much sold out you can say that about kansas city it's pretty there's a bunch of them that are close yeah and they're like 10 months away 11 months away so far yeah terrytown boston all these places so get your tickets right now if you want to come this year to see us please shut up and give me murder.com we're very excited 12 cities sacramento san francisco austin phoenix oklahoma city kansas city that's right minneapolis milwaukee durham nashville terrytown, Boston. Look at that. Top of the head. So there you go. Come see us.

We can't wait. Also, you definitely, certainly want Patreon. Oh, yeah. That's a fact. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. All the bonus material. Oh, yes. Tons.

A couple hundred episodes to binge on there. Anybody $5 a month or above. You get one episode or two episodes every other week. One Crime and Sports, one Small Town Murder. This week, what you which you're going to get crime and sports we're going to talk about players that have had disabilities and still played in professional sports think jim abbott one hand thrown a no-hitter stuff like that there's a bunch of guys like that so we'll talk about that and then for small town murder we're going to talk about something that a lot of people are talking about lately gypsy rose Blanchard.

And people have strong opinions on it, and so do we. And I don't know. Who knows? Maybe they won't be the same as yours. We'll talk all about it. Probably not. We'll go over that and see what's going on. But, yeah, there's some weird stuff going on there, and that's just a crazy case anyway.

Mom, we'll talk all about it. So that is Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports. And you'll get a shout-out at the end of the show as well. Jimmy will mispronounce your name while trying his hardest to get it correct. And while you're at listening to that, listen to crime and sports, our other podcast. Right. There's a bunch of murder in there lately. Give it a shot. Let's say you don't really like sports.

You don't want to give it a try. Pick somebody that you've heard of before. Chris Benoit or oj or something murder case something along the lines listen it's a good show you'll go oh wow it's just like the same guys that do the same thing and then listen to the rest and also listen to your stupid opinions our new podcast hey yeah you know here you go i challenge you to listen to it it's an hour long and tell me it's not the funniest podcast on right now. I'm telling you right now. Terrific.

Yeah, we will put that on the table and say we think it's the funniest podcast straight. You know, per minute style. Check it out. So that said, disclaimer time. This is a comedy podcast. Also, we're comedians. Jokes are going to happen and people are going to die. These are going to happen together, but not exactly twisted all together.

There's nothing funny about an actual murder, but there's a lot funny about a murderer thinking he can get away with murder. A police force that can't quite catch a murderer. Things like that. You know, making terrible mistakes. There's a lot of jokes to be made there. But what we don't do, we go out of our way not to do, is we don't make fun of the victims or the victim's families. Why, James? Because we're assholes.

But we're not scumbags. There you have it. That's how that works. So if that sounds good to you, man, do we have a wild story. If you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together, maybe you're in the wrong place. Maybe you wandered into a wrong room, or maybe it's the exact right room and you just

don't know it yet either way no bitching about it later that said i think it's time everybody it's time let's all take a deep breath here arms to the sky and let's all shout let's do this jim. What do you say? Let's go. Let's go, everybody. We're going to Arizona. Oh, boy. All right.

Here we go. Get ready for some dust. Here we are. Catalina Foothills. You know where this is? I'm going to, I'll tell you exactly where it is. I have no fucking idea. I've never heard of the Catalina Foothills.

That's because it's in tucson or right outside of tucson suburb and phoenix people if you don't know arizona arizona is very specific you're either fascinating isn't it you're either from tucson or from phoenix there's nobody else in the whole state by the way it's right there's the sister wives people in flagstaff and then nobody else lives there right there right there near the border you got uh the the jeff's family yeah and there's like a native american on a horse somewhere somewhere in the in the vastness of that there's like one native american guy on a horse strange people that are sun bleached down there in yuma yeah very odd people that have chosen yeah but people from phoenix generally

don't really deal with tucson much. That's how it works. So that's why Jimmy doesn't know here. Now, Catalina Foothills, like I said, it's a suburb, kind of a wealthy area of Tucson outside of it. Yeah, you know, nice, gated type places. It's only 15 minutes outside Tucson. Oh, to the southeast? I have no idea of which direction it is from Tucson. Probably.

You don't know where it is. Now you need to know specifically what side of Tucson it's on. I was being like, down there near the southeast area, there's a lot of wealthy things. I did a show down there once that I believe was in this area. I was like, this is weird out here. This doesn't look like Tucson. I haven't seen anybody try to bite anybody else or anything. Not Tucson, you know what i mean yeah about

two hours to phoenix an hour 50 depends on how you drive you can make it an hour 40 i'm sure if you if you put it in there about four hours and 10 minutes to flagstaff which was our last episode which was episode 406 not even a little sorry was the name of that and that guy was a real asshole that guy i remember so this is in Pima County area code five to oh, and a history of this town. They, they started to kind of in the early twenties when this came around. So this wasn't part of like any mining boom of the 1800s or any thing like

that. Some of the towns just were already here. Let's put some more nicer together. Yeah. Well, it was originally federal trust land yeah so it wasn't you couldn't build houses on there but it was open range for cattle grazing you're allowed to openly graze your cattle and then some guy john murphy began purchasing

property north of river road in the foothills so i don't know where that is so it's the north side of town then yeah so okay there you go. He wanted to make 10 housing subdivisions with large lots. So he was going to make like a gated community way back then. He was like, let's make this like cookie cutter. I had enough of all the riffraff. Yeah. Let's fucking gate them out. Never mind the guy who did the Levittown and all that kind of thing.

Levitt. Never mind that guy. This is the beginner, the originator of tract housing, I think, here. So he wanted to make sure this was low-density residential stuff here. He bought 7,000 acres north of River Road between North Oracle Road and Sabino Canyon. Yeah, it's way north. Way north. That's north end of town.

Then in a federal land auction. Okay. So that's north end of town. Then in a federal land auction. Okay. So that's how he did it. And then a Swiss architect came in to build all of his shit here. In 1963, the Skyline Country Club was established. Oh, shit. Then in the 80s, a couple other resorts came in, the Ventana Canyon Resort and the La Paloma Resort, which will play big in our story today. Really? That's why that makes sense. Reviews of this town. Here we go. resort and the la paloma resort which yeah we'll play in big in our story today so really that's

why that makes sense uh reviews of this town here we go this is so it's good it's going to be all love i'm sure right no so here's five stars the prettiest location in all of arizona really nowhere else compares i live in scottsdale and whenever i come out to catalina foothills i do not want to leave the views and weather are perfect the weather is perfect the what the weather is not scottsdale man the views are i'm sure very nice because there's mountains and so there's some pretty views there sunset time things turn purple it's nice uh the weather the weather's a piece of shit though it's literally the exact same it's five degrees cooler, but it's the same shit. Probably windier out there, north of Tucson.

It sounds windy to me. Great restaurant choices, culture, and great schools as well. That's what I think of when I think of north Tucson, culture. That's what comes to mind. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm like, you know, that's going to put like you know that's you're gonna put like broadway in there i think pretty soon here i'm from scottsdale and i go down to tucson why do you do that this is a

very wealthy area though so i think it's just yeah there's probably wealthy people that have places in both areas socialites doing some like exactly rising things yeah exactly socialites doing social shit i believe is what you call it. Here's four stars. I feel very safe in this area. I think that the fact that we live in a gated community makes it feel that way. Feel that way.

Yeah. You put a 10-foot fence up. Do you think that's impenetrable to anybody that wants to get in? It'll help. You know, if it's a lazy criminal, they'll go, never mind. But if someone really wants to kill you specifically, they're coming for you. They're coming right over that wall. Four stars, some speeding on a nearby street.

That's what loses a star. There's some speeding going on. It's only four stars. But often see the police setting up a speed trap this guy's on the side of speed traps he's like he sees cops setting up a speed trap he doesn't do the old school flash the headlights to warn people he's like they're gonna catch you buddy this is a grown-up hall monitor fuck this person he sees the fucking motor cop with the laser beam and he goes thank god about time he gives him a thumbs up as he drives by as he drives by five under

thanks thanks buddy doing the lord's work buddy there's a guy back there going a little fast just to let you know he's coming up keep an eyeesus the other person's like how many times has a hitman been like oh there's a gate there's a gate here i don't know the code yeah damn it never mind calling it off again by the by the pin code of the gate boss it's me hey boss no it's me i'm here no i mean i'm trying to kill the guy but uh there's a gate what he got the, it's me. I'm here. No, I'm here. I'm trying to kill the guy, but there's a gate. You got the code? It's got a little pin. I can't get through it.

There's a little pin pad. Climb over it. What are you talking about pound? What is that? Climb over it. I got a hashtag on here only. This is crazy. I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, man.

Three stars. I think it depends on the area of town you live in. Yeah. Yeah. We're talking about your experience. It's a review for you, not for someone else. Three stars. This is the most ponderous question or review we've ever done.

And we do a show about reviews called Your Stupid Opinion. So this is totally crazy. Three stars. Quote, you barely know they exist who who is the question i don't know they is extremely vague yeah i don't know that could be a thing a person a place i don't know the mountains barely know you barely know they exist i don't know what The mountains? Barely know. You barely know they exist. I don't know what that means. There's no punctuation in there to give a hint or anything. Awesome. Don't know. Here's two stars.

I don't know what they were expecting here. Don't confuse it with the South. You won't find anyone on their porch cooking barbecue. And that's two stars. That's not someone going, you know, you're not going to find that. That's good. They're like,, you're not going to find that. That's good. They're like, hey, no hillbilly shit here. This person's like, I need more.

I was looking for maybe an engine hanging from a tree, and I didn't see anything anywhere. I need burnt ends. Yeah. They were very angry that no one's smoking pork on their front porch. Not a bit of coleslaw in the whole fucking town weird uh people of this town population 50,096 at this point it's gone up quite a bit in the last uh 15 20 years when our story takes place though it's not that much so uh male female there's a few more females than males median age is high here. Really? Oh, yeah, retirement people. 54.2 is the median age. And there's a lot of golf and a lot of shit like that.

Yeah, there's twice as many people 85 and over, but there's also a lot more kids than average. So I don't know what's going on here. But there's a shitload of people 65 plus, just a ton of them. It's a lot. So it's almost 60% married. 59.8% married people here. Way above the average. Only 6.2% of people are single with children here.

So it's older people. That's all it is. Older people and wealthy families. Right. Seems to be the the whole deal race of this town 78.3 percent white 1.1 percent black 5.5 percent asian 11.7 percent hispanic so that's the breakdown we're only 40.5 percent of the people are religious that's just rich people they're like they want my money i don't i go there they're always asking me for something i'm not not doing it. Pay enough to the government in Texas.

Thank you. So this is the most of anybody. The leading religion here is Catholic, 21.4%. Really? Yeah. Well, I think that's your Hispanic population. And some East Coast transplants, a lot of that goes on here as well, as we know for that. 3% Mormon, of course, because Arizona's got a pretty strong Mormon population.

0.6% Jewish, almost. Almost made it there, but not quite. We have in Pima County, the last election, 58.4% voted Democrat, 39.8% Republican, 1.8% Independent. And the unemployment rate here is slightly higher than the national average. But the median household income is much higher than the national average. Median household income here, $102,171. So pretty high. Pretty high.

Yeah. So that's not bad. And the median home cost, though, the housing here, if 100 is average, regular, here it's 203 is the index. Oh, boy. Median home cost here, $521,100. Welcome to Arizona. Un-fucking-real, man. To live outside of Tucson.

Tucson. Holy shit. To live outside of Tucson. Tucson. Oh, shit. So if we've convinced you, damn it, you're going to see these views and you're going to find out if they do exist or not. Yeah. The vague they out there. We have for you the Catalina Foothills, Arizona real estate report.

The average two-bedroom rental here goes for about $1,300, which is slightly above the national average. We have a house here, three-bedroom, two-bath. This is kind of 1,691 square feet. It is a very typical Arizona-looking house. Oh, boy. You know the house. Succo. That one, the tile roof.

Clay roof, yeah. in a gated community. Kitchen looks like it was done in 2010. You know what I mean? So there's a little outdated, but it's fine. It's fine. It's decent looking. It's clean. $489,000 for that. It's sincerely outrageous right now. That's ridiculous.

It's made of particle board. If you knock in no one's home, you could just kick your way through the wall. You can Kool-Aid man through that house. You could absolutely kick your way through an Arizona house wall. No fucking problem for half a million dollars. Next up, three-bedroom, five-bath, T-Ball for each and every b-hole, and a couple left over for the neighbors here. No kidding.

3,499 square feet it's one of those big like square the hell are they called like adobe looking houses the ones that flat top flat top you can't really tell how big they are or what they're about looks like maybe it's you know where the ceiling is because it's just a flat wall and then you got the little pipes coming out the sides yeah i feel like like an installment got the little pipes coming out the sides. Yeah, I feel like an installment of the army who's fighting the Apaches might be staying there temporarily, like a fort type of deal. But it's, you know, inside it's nice, I guess. It's very Southwestern-y.

But it's $990,000 for that. Holy shit. Yeah. Keep your breath here. I'll let you get your breath back because you're gonna need it hang on to your hats folks hang on to more than your hats here five bedroom eight bath so all sorts of t-balls for b-holes there 7072 square feet oh dear god just a big ridiculous house it's a big beige box that's all beige inside. $3,900,000 for that.

Almost $4 million. $4 million. I'm telling you, man. It makes zero sense. And that place is a guarantee. It's a piece of shit built-wise. It's a dump. So things to do here.

Let's find out. Old Tucson Studios, number one yeah there's that i've been there i went there when i was a kid at one point when i was like 14 and uh yeah everybody's saying it all tucson if you've seen tombstone which everybody has you've seen old tucson studios because the whole fucking movie's filmed there and if you've seen basically any western done from 1940 yeah through recently a lot of them are filmed there. A lot of it's there. A lot of it.

The gravestone of Here Lies, whatever. Yeah, that's actually at Tombstone. In Tombstone. It's also in old Tucson Studios. Oh, they've created it. They recreated Boot Hill. Yeah, it was there before Tombstone, because when I went there, it was like 92 when it was there.

So it was pre-Tombstone era. Fascinating. So they put that in there. So yeah, they call it a family theme park. And it's an Old West theme park, but there's not really like rides. There's like a train. No, it's just gunfights and you can eat a fucking barbecue, whatever. That's the main thing.

Everybody pretends to be a cowboy today. And first, it was just a movie studio. And then in 1960, they opened up to the public as a theme park. And then they would close down when they were doing shoots and stuff like that. Sure. So Old Tucson here. The Old Tucson Western Experience. A Western experience at Old Tucson presents Legends of the Wild West.

Oh, boy. This is coming up in January through May of 2024. Oh, tickets go on sale. Five months of this shit? Five months. Meet the legends who braved southern Arizona during the 1800s, learn their stories through immersive entertainment, and become part of the Wild West only at Old Tucson's Western Experience.

Legends of the Wild West at Old Tucson brings to life Calamity Jane, Billy the Kid, Wild Bill Hickok, and Jesse James through live entertainment. People are too stupid to write it that way, though. People are going to show up really expecting to meet him. That's how dumb people are now. That's the problem. They'll be like, I heard Wild Bill Hickok is going to be here. We have guys pretending to be these guys.

That's what it should say. That's what they should say that's what they should say yeah enjoy old-fashioned games and antique attractions like our blacksmith vintage carousel miniature locomotive ride iron door mine and our petting zoo oh man this is there's all sorts of shootouts in the street that they have and uh yeah and they also have Relax in the Stands during our classic comedy stunt show featuring history's finest outlaws and participate in our daily gunfight at high noon in Town Square by choosing which of two Wild West legends will battle it out. You pick them. Oh, my. Choose your own adventure real life. Yeah, and they'll shoot blanks at each other and then pretend you're involved well let me ask you city folk that's what they're gonna say shit like that

to you what do you think greenhorn and then you're gonna have to get over here well yeah i was just gonna say i knew you were going vacation dodge city so i was gonna say hey come on underpants that was the next thing underpants. Underpants. That's fantastic. Line us up with a couple of sarsaparillas there, underpants. That's fucking great. Crime rate in this town, what we're interested in, obviously, here. Yeah. Property crime, right about average, actually.

Okay. Violent crime, though, murder, rape, robbery, and, of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about a third under the national average low fairly safe yeah fairly safe so yeah not bad that said let's talk about a horrific murder what do you say let's do it let's get on with it here oh my goodness i can't wait this is a crazy fucking story all right let's go back in time a little bit here let's start way back in time we're going to end up in the 90s though that's when a lot of our story is going to take place line 90s 2000s

so let's talk about a guy named gary lee triano t-r-i-a-n-o triano yes uh he's coming from tucson but okay there's a lot of italians in t. Is that right? You don't understand. There's some weird thing with Italians, and it's people that like a lot of times, too, that are from Italy. Yeah. It looks like southern Italy, Tucson. Really? And southern Arizona in general. Yeah, my grandmother one time sat on a hill, I remember, and it was the morning, and she was looking out over the tile roofs and everything, and it was on a hill.

Oh, got it. And she said, oh, it looks just like Italy roofs and everything, and it was on a hill. Oh, got it. And she said, oh, it looks just like Italy. It's beautiful. Southern Italy is a desert. It's awful when it comes to that, the climate. And those S-tile roofs, they all look like that. The tile roofs, the way the mountains look, everything, it's very similar. So a lot of those people come out there, and they love it.

So that's why a lot of, like, Joe Bonanno, the mob guy, he moved out there. A lot of Italian people moved out there. A lot of people don't realize that the tile roof was made that way because they would make the tile over their thighs to make it decorative-like. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They would form it with their thighs. Now it's just bullshit. Now it's just like fucking created and stamped and stuck on a fucking house.

It's every house in the suburbs now. Right. It was like the roof meant something. It was a work of art, for Christ's sake. And it wasn't meant to be gray either. That's the other thing. That was also part of it. They do that in Arizona.

Here's your gray. Here's your decorative gray roof. Thanks. Thanks for getting decorative tiles and making them gray. With concrete in the spots where it leaks and stuff. These are just like they're honed and crafted so that they don't leak. It's so stupid. Yeah, they're all machined up.

It's just manufactured dumb shit. Yeah, there's not ladies making them on their thighs anymore, I don't think. It's all fake shit. It's all bullshit. So Gary here is born November 6th, 1943. All right. So here we go. 1960.

Grows up in Tucson. Okay. 1961. Graduates from Rincon or Rincon High School. Rincon. Rincon in Tucson. So that's where he graduates. He went to the University of Arizona as well.

Oh, look at this. Tucson through and through to the bone. No kidding. of arizona as well oh look at this tucson through and through to the bone kidding here he earned his degree in accounting from the u of a there and also went to a number he went to some law school classes he thought about becoming a lawyer apparently and then at some point thought better of it for a while went to some law school classes and then said this is a lot of i don't know i don't want to do this so uh in the 60s he marries a young woman as well so he gets married out of college to a woman named mary cram mary cram cram it in me there mary yeah um there it is they have two kids as well here uh their

marriage they're not as well just there's nobody else has had kids yet they have two kids heather and brian heather's the. They're a year apart. So bang out two in a row, and they're like, that's it. Very efficient. Got it done. Two years, that's all the kids were having. Beautiful. Done.

So he's trying to establish himself as an important local guy is what he wants to be. He wants to be rich. He wants to be important. These are his goals. He wants to be big man and Tuscan-y. Yeah, Tuscan-y, they call it. It's almost Tuscan. Tuscan-a. It's really fucked up Tuscan.

Yeah, that's what it is. It's an awful Tuscan-y. It's Tuscan-y but not undesirable. That's what it is. It's Tuscany, but not undesirable. That's what it is. So in 1973, he wants to run for the Tucson City Council. Oh, he wants to be in politics.

Yeah, he wants power. He wants power because in politics, if you're in politics, you have better access to business deals and local politics because you know all the business people. That's what he wants because he wants to be rich. Money power is what he's after. He, though, does not. He's disqualified as a candidate because he failed to meet the residency requirement. You know, you have to live in the place you want to actually be represent. It helps. So he I guess he wanted to do this he was building a house which was way

out well outside the city which was in catalina foothills yeah that's where he was building his house and they said well you can't be on the tucson city council if you live in catalina foothills right because it's not part of the fucking city so they yanked his name off the ballot off the ballot so he went on a tirade and went to the press and tried to sue the city election laws that require candidate residency like dude heaven's sake how do you not you have to live there at least imagine somebody fucking running for president going well i mean i live close to the border in canada it's fine like you go no you have to fucking actually live here i think you don't understand talking about the Italian Riviera is beautiful I love being down here I just want to

I want to live in Italy and be the president United States can I just do that they have phones I'll get to you don't worry I know stuff so he does that you have to live there for a year is the rules of the election but it's not like they made the rule after he, but they didn't do it because of him. They did it because somebody else tried this shit. Well, it'd be one thing if you went to be a city councilman and in the middle of it, they went,

nobody who hasn't lived in the thing and, you know, make a rule that disqualifies you. That would be, that's what it is. That's what it is. It's a, sorry.

Well, the last name that starts with W, but if that's the law, when you knew, when you started and you knew it is. That's what it is. It's a sorry with a last name that starts with W. But if that's the law when you started and you knew it, then it's your fault. Run in the next election then after you're established. So I don't know. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts.

I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother****er lied.

Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I understand that anybody who's paid attention to the media will have to come to the conclusion that I killed my wife. Hi, my name

is Zach Stewart-Pontier. I'm one of the filmmakers behind The Jinx, and I'm excited to bring you the official Jinx podcast podcast we'll be revisiting all six episodes of part one and watching along with part two as it airs on max starting april 21st bye bye the official jinx podcast listen on max or wherever you get your podcasts uh 1977 he is uh he's a he's a stockbroker at this point, and he's also a company official for a company called Great Southwestern Trust Corp. Oh, he's doing white-collar shit, too.

Yeah, that's what I mean. He wants money and power. He's one of the company officers, basically, for this. It's a land development firm. He's into real estate and land development and that sort of thing. He files for bankruptcy here. Not him, but the company does. The Great

Southwestern Trust Corp in 77. But then he's doing well after that. He makes some money here in the early 80s. In 1983 he gets involved in bingo. Oh? Bingo. Yeah. He invested in a bingo hall at 73 50 south nogala's way or south nogala's highway uh it was owned by the tohono oh how the fuck do you say tohono

otom tohono otom indians there you go there's two o's with an apostrophe in the middle so is it irish is it fucking i have no idea what we're talking about here i have no clue yeah i was like what is this what is going on here look at this irish fuck with his two apostrophes yeah you got a pot oh apostrophe oh what is this oh o'neill get the fuck out of here i'm not dealing with this is that quotations is that maybe an o it was a tribe that was blended with irish people who came here at one point Is that quotations? Is that maybe an O? Not really? It was a tribe that was blended with Irish people who came here at one point. I have no idea.

So the bingo hall was owned by them because obviously it had to be them to own it. Yeah, and it's their land. So he invested in this. It's now the Desert Diamond Casino, by the way, this place. Oh, yeah. There's one near me, too there yeah now they have chain casinos in arizona yeah of course they do so he he invests with two other guys um and um you know all sorts of people and they will war on that later let's just say yeah well bingo was was only legal there because it's a form of gambling. So they would only allow it on the on the reservation. Yeah.

Which is weird. So stupid. So stupid. So then by 1985, this is wild. Gary and his wife, Mary, are named by the Tucson chapter of City of Hope. Some organization. Oh, it's a church, James. Oh, it's a church. Uh huh. City of Hope, some organization. Oh, it's a church, James. Oh, it's a church.

Uh-huh. City of Hope is a church? I believe that's true. Maybe. I'm pretty sure it is. Okay, well, they're named Couple of the Year by them. Okay. Couple of the Year.

It's all working out. Amazing. Amazing. By 1986, the next year, they're divorced couple of the year gary and mary couldn't last a year couldn't let they were cup the pressure of holding the crowns heavy lies the have you lost the crown couple of the year divorced a year later that's amazing that is us they were married for 20 goddamn years couple of the year they couldn't take the pressure couple of the year that is the when you get that you're only allowed to be married for one more year that's what it is

that's what it is i'm telling it's hard to wear the crown brother that's what i'm saying that's what happened to Biggie. They gave him the crown, man. He was dead in a year, so they can't deal with it. That's so funny. It's the funniest thing in this whole... I was like, that's amazing. That's the greatest thing in the story.

And nobody talked extra about that. No one was like, how weird is that? They just casually mentioned it. It was like, get the fuck out of here. You guys, it's fucking bizarre. Yeah. I'd like to know their other couples of the year how'd they work out is this just who was the runner-up how are they doing what about 85 84 what about that couple of the year are they still with us or what so uh 1986 uh he is the co-owner he's in the going through a divorce he's the co-owner of a company called tgc worldwide inc which just sounds like a gobbledygook of bullshit yeah it's

dumb yeah it's just just corporate bull important business shit feels like a shell company yeah that's what i mean yeah here's my business card tgc worldwide ink oh that sounds important it's got an ink in a world that's wow worldwide and it's incorporated um it's a computer firm in 1986 and it files for bankruptcy oh yeah there was a lot of that going on in the 80s because pcs came out in the early 80s and a lot of companies started up thinking this is going to be a huge boom and everybody's going to buy them. But then nobody bought them really because they were fucking expensive. Yeah.

Schools bought them because they were crazy expensive and nobody understood them. That's what I mean. I had my fucking computer in my house at that point. Nobody was buying that. I had a green screen at school. No. That shit was- Fucking Macintosh that I didn't understand.

A TV would have been bought for like a better tv would have certainly come before a computer absolutely one thousand percent we will watch gremlins instead of this green screen of bet your ass of dots that blink we don't know what this is i can get a tv and two vcrs for the price of this fucking piece of shit gizmo thinks he's rambo we're watching yeah this is we're watching it i'd love to see that that's going to be hilarious that's i want to see the flashy gremlin i want to see him open up his overcoat and show you his cock and balls that's what i want to say look at it one time won't you so they that they file for bankruptcy this company that he's co-owner of so you know i guess when you have a lot of businesses

some work and some don't yeah i don't know i don't have a lot of businesses we have this i guess people take chances sometimes if you put all your eggs in one basket then you just you don't sleep to make it work right you know what i mean but if you have a lot sometimes shit falls apart who knows the bad news is when this thing falls apart then uh we'll be uh probably flashing our cocks oh yeah you're gonna i'm gonna have to show somebody something for a dollar be a flashy gremlin it's gonna be yeah that's right that's what we're gonna look like too we're gonna look like i'm too at that point it's gonna be bad it's gonna be bad telling you man that's the crown so he meets in 1986 while he is in the midst of his divorce he meets a woman named pamela here okay uh pamela phillips to be exact

she is born in 1952 so she's about nine years younger than him okay and she's very pretty she's like she did modeling and all this type of shit. Her aunt wrote a book about her, which is fucking funny. That'll show Mare. Who should be called like Pam's a little bitch sometimes. That's what it should be called. A lot of passive aggressive shots at her and stuff. It's hilarious.

It's weird. Weird book for your aunt to write, but whatever. She grew up in what is described in one article as Tucson Country Club Privilege. Her family had money. In the book that her aunt wrote, there's a lot of pictures of the family, and she's always on a beach. They go places. She's one of those people that doesn't understand when anybody has anything negative to say about Tucson becauseson because she doesn't experience that she's like there's meth here what are you talking about never seen it strange very weird so they get together and on october 4th 1986 ink still wet

on the old divorce they decide to get married in san diego he got Pammy P. that fast. That fast. Let's go. Let's do it. Wow. So he wines and dines. He leads a very fast lifestyle. Flash is the key to it all. That's the thing.

Money and power is no good unless everybody knows that you're rich and powerful. Got to blind them. Yeah. That's the thing. What fun is it to be? There's a certain mind that says says what fun is it just to be rich and powerful if i can't shove everyone's face yeah why not and some people hide and they don't you never know shit i would never i would never no no no i will hide always hide i don't

want anybody i would never want anybody no no no i can't live like that driving down the street in a fucking lamborghini why would you do that it's so ridiculous i don't get that so the other thing about it with with him i think he it's hard to explain but i think that he i think that he no matter whether he is flush he could be you know have two million in the bank right now in the 80s and be feeling great or he could have 10 cents in his pocket or 22 cents as we'll talk about later on and he'll act exactly the same and live the same lifestyle that's the thing doesn't matter if he's broke or flush he's in a limo there's a chauffeur he's flying a private plane. He's doing all that kind of shit. That's the way he does it. So Gary and Pam end up having two children together, and they settle into a real comfortable jet-setting kind of life over here. Yeah, as jet-setting as you get in Tucson, let's be honest.

I mean, it's not really a hub. You've got to go somewhere else to get your... You're not in fucking Bel Air or something. It's not like you're in Manhattan. Anywhere you go from Tucson, you've got to lay over oh yeah you're you're laying over somewhere or you'll just say fucking and drive and fly out of phoenix yeah so uh their friend uh her friend really laura chapman is her name she said when she and gary were married pam didn't even work she lived a pampered a very very pampered lifestyle that Gary provided for her.

Go for her. Yeah. She said they went to Vegas at one point. I think this was on 48 Hours back in the day they talked about this. Remember 48 Hours? Yeah. That's what this was on. This was a while back.

They said they talk about a trip to Vegas, and she said that that was a trip it was a lot of fun he had his own plane so he would fly us in he had his own plane his own plane she said it was just a small jet so just a small jet that's all no big deal it was a jet do you think it was a prop plane or wasn't an actual she said jet she said jet he was jetting it. Jet's very specific to jet. Yeah. You know what I mean? But I think you have to have a lot more flying time to fly a jet than you do to fly a prop. He owns it. He's just owning it. He's got a pilot.

He flies it. Wow. He has fucking chauffeurs when he drives half the time. You've got to have $30 million for that. He doesn't, but that's how he lives. That's what I mean. He just lives like that no matter what the situation, whether he's doing well or not.

That's him. Yeah, she said it was big-time limo rides became normal. Really? He'd always go to U of A basketball games. They used to always go to. They loved going to U of A basketball games in the 80s. And yeah, that's part of it. And there was a long

time Chevy dealer named Buck O'Reilly. Do you know who this is? I think he's like the Earnhardt. Is he related to Earnhardt out there with his fucking sitting on a... And that ain't no bull! The first day my mother moved to Arizona. You knew that was on TV? out there with his fucking sitting on a, and that ain't no bull. With his big stupid hat. Well, he's sitting on a bull, yeah.

The first day my mother moved to Arizona, when we moved there when I was a kid. You knew that was on TV? The first fucking day, within 10 minutes of turning the television on, I saw that and I went, mom, where did you take me? What are we? Where are we? What the fuck is happening? Is that Nathan, Arizona? He's not even kidding.

This isn't like a joke. He's fucking serious. That's a real man. Yeah. If he was like kidding, like, ha ha, look at me, ain't like a joke he's fucking serious real man yeah if he was like kidding like haha look at me ain't no bull he was dead serious big fucking hat on on livestock not like a fucking no not a not a motorized cars he's sitting on a fucking on livestock in 110 degree you can see the glare are you a cattleman or a car salesman, sir? Which one? That's his whole gimmick.

I was like, what's going on? It's his stick, yeah. This guy one time knocked on the window of the limo while they were inside at the game to play a trick on them. Because everybody used to make fun of him for always coming in a limo. Yeah, yeah. So this guy went out, knocked on the window of the limo, and said, yeah, they said, Gary and Pam there, they said that they are going with somebody else on the way home. So you can just go ahead and take off. And the guy went, oh, my God, and fucking took off just so they got outside.

The limo was gone just to fuck with him. Vox a jokester. Just to fuck with him, which I think is great. That means that, you know, it's trying to be like, calm down there, Mr. Fancy Pants. That means you don't need the limo, man. That's what it is. He's like, I drove myself here. See what I'm saying?

And I'm more important than you are. And the limo guy probably was like, yeah, you're right. I shouldn't be here. This is dumb. Sitting waiting for people watching U of A basketball. What are we doing? I'm going to sit through two halves out here. I just watched a guy bite another guy.

What's going on? I always hear about people biting strangers in lot of biting yeah which is really the most raw form of attack it is yeah punching someone shooting stabbing us so you just run up to a stranger and bite him that's the craziest shit ever that's wild so he also gets hooked up with charlesating, who was a big writer. No, the big scamming savings and loan guy from the 80s. Arizona's biggest huckster ever. Do I not know who that is? You absolutely should, because for about a five year period, that's all anybody talked about was Charles Keating. Charles Keating.

Yes. He one of the people here, Charles Keating, that he was hanging out with, Charles H. Keating, was a savings and loan guy who got convicted and all sorts of shit like that and did time in federal prison and everything. Apparently, he owed Triano money. He owed Gary money on a real estate deal and didn't want to pay the guy. He didn't want to pay Gary. Told him to go fuck himself, which is why he was in federal prison for shit like that yeah so the triano's got a an advisor quote unquote i say that loosely who told keating's people that okay well if keating doesn't pay us we're going to take one of his ears i I say advisor because financial advisors don't do that. Guys with thick necks named Vinny say shit like that. We'll take your ear.

Yeah, a collateral is rarely a body part. An ear. No, it's not collateral. That's what you're, I purchased an ear with that money at that point. No, you're not paying me me so i'll take your ear and then if you pay me i'm keeping your ear it's not like i'll give you back the ear yeah this isn't this isn't over and this is extra yeah yeah like an ear also at this point um so i guess this keating's advisors were like this guy's threatening to cut our ears off this is fucking crazy and um

it didn't matter though they never took his ear and keating never paid him his fucking money so he got screwed over by charles keating which is one of how i don't know how many people that could say that a lot of people could say that so pam on the other hand now her friend says that she never worked but apparently she in the late 80s she was working in commercial real estate. Oh, that's important. Hmm. Yeah. Apparently, she worked at Grub Ellis, which I've seen signs and billboards for them.

And, yeah, she did commercial real estate and everything like that. This was in the 80s here. There was conflict of interest laws that she skirted here. In 1987, she was on the County bond advisory committee so she's she's in government too we don't get a lot of people on this show no that sit on a county bond advisory committee we no one on this show that we've ever covered could spell county bond advisory committee never mind fucking sit on it these are normally not the civic people that we're talking about so she's sitting on this board while also dabbling in commercial real estate which is

not good no well she voted to support a proposed county purchase of a big uh uh rant as two big ranches outside of southeast of tuc. Are they ones that she's selling? That's what I'm talking about. Grub and Ellis was handling the sale. Yeah. And they were going to make millions from the deal because it's a $35 million purchase. And she gets 3%. Well, she's getting her company, whatever. She might not get it, whatever.

But it's still for her company. Either way, that's not great. So the county eventually lost out to a federal purchase of the ranch, so it didn't happen. But she does not care that that's a complete conflict of interest, didn't recuse herself from a vote or anything like that. So they want money. They're into money.

One of her friends who is a politics guy, he said that he brokered a number of county uh real estate deals ranging from river bottom to former bank building that is headquarters of to the sheriff's department on east spenson highway and uh he said quote pam will rip your heart out for a commission that's what he said he meant that in a complimentary way yeah yeah she's a pot that's a positive thing that's like yeah she's a fucking shark she's a shrewd businesswoman. So 1988, Gary is involved with a land swap, so swapping land with the Pima County Board of Supervisors.

He's getting involved with them, and they're going to swap some land. It involves 23 acres of county land west of Keno Community Hospital, and they're going to swap that for 215 acres of hilly land near the Tucson Mountains that had been controlled by Triano. So this 215 acres would be added to Tucson Mountain Park. Okay, so he's going to get some flat shit that's developable. Yes, and they're going to get more park. The up and down bullshit that he can't do anything with anyway. Exactly. Shit he can't do anything with anyway. Exactly.

Shit he can't do anything with. And that they actually can do something with. So works out. And they'd like that area developed. And he's going to develop it. So everybody's happy. There you go. Problem is he got all fucked up financially on this.

Yeah. So he owed tons of people money on this land deal. He was going to try to develop the 215 acres out in the mountains there and even took a bunch of money from relatives of u.s senator dennis deconcini at the time as well really and he owed about 850 000 to people for this oh and so he then got them to swap the land and so the county basically paid off his debt for him is what ended up happening. Lucky. Yeah.

But then he borrowed against the newly acquired 23 acres of land and lost all that money as well. And the land. So lost or spent it. Terrible. Yeah. He's he I mean, he'll just borrow and leverage and he doesn't. Yeah. I mean, he'll just borrow and leverage and he acts like a guy who's got billions of dollars in a bunch of multiple companies, but he's not that guy.

He's a smaller guy. He's just shell gaming it. But if you live like that, that's how people live extravagant lifestyles without having any fucking money. He knows how to do that. He figured it out. So the county ended up paying for it again because they needed the property for a baseball spring training complex the one that he had that they gave him electric park so then they fucking sold it back to him so he sold it back to them again so wow yeah he fucked him over a couple of times there um in 1990 they start to really run with a lot of they want to be seen with famous people powerful people they went to a basketball

game with donald trump and marla maples in 1990 a u of a game they went to together yep and they were very very proud because it was in the paper and they were like we're like socialites look at us you know our social goings on are in the paper you know they lived in this big house and he's running he's playing golf and he's running an Indian casino and he's fucking got businesses all the time. And he his wife later, Pam, would say he's flamboyant in a way that I normally wouldn't fall for. Oh, normally wouldn't. You know, there's money there. Yeah.

She said this to 48 hours later on a little later quote i was worth i think 1.8 2 million in there somewhere in there made it totally on my own that's what she said i made a whole bunch of my own there um but they were she was trying to say they she was wealthy he was wealthy they were hanging out with people they were her friend was saying how she was bragging about that. It was in the paper the next day that they went to the basketball game with the Trumps. They were all excited.

Um, he said that, uh, they said he was always trying to, Oh, he was always willing to take a chance. He said, he's a,

he wasn't a good athlete. He's a heavy set guy, six foot to a big guy, 250 pounds though. Heavy set guy. They said that he loved to play tennis and they said that he would bet he would bet games of tennis and games of golf with people even though he wasn't good at it really so he would just rack up these huge debts because he loved to spend money it's just fun yeah they said he would lose 10 grand on a game of golf no problem

because he's bad at it he's not good at it but he wants to he wants to bet he wants to play with the big boys not whether he's got the goods for it or not whether he knows what he's doing or not so he's like one of those people that would like walk up to the those chessboard people in new york city in the parks and be like i'll challenge you and sit there and the guy would check five yeah the guy would checkmate him in two moves it's like some fucking didn't see that coming yeah it's like some 76 year old autistic man who hasn't looked at anyone in the eye in 40 years but he'll school you in chess in 12 seconds and you can't do anything about it all right jesus christ have you ever heard that michael richard story the kramer on seinfeld yeah the

story about central park and did it the story about some guy that he saw a guy played uh chess guy was he was a guy who was like an autistic severely autistic guy who was on the street and he was a savant at it yeah and he asked to play him and he played him and he said he beat the other guy beat him in two two minutes it was over and he was like oh my god and he asked to play him and he played him and he said he beat the guy beat him in two minutes it was over and he was like oh my god and he said you know let me play again and he said no no I won't play again he won't play anybody again because he said

he's tired of people aren't very good so if I play you once and I beat you in ten seconds there's no reason for me to play you again I'm not dealing with you just dismissed by this guy who is literally sleeping behind a garbage can he's like get away from me like that's awesome so that's where you reign supreme that's it so now he has got at this point four kids from the two ladies he's got two and two and two yeah

two and two here a lot of people also he's got some volatile relationships with all these business things he owes people money stiff people he fucks people over sure steals deals from people stuff like that gets sued a lot you know um mary cram lives pretty close by the way near here yeah she lives around still and uh at one point when they're having trouble she'll even use her money to keep him afloat she'll even like lend him money yeah he'll also borrow money from anybody that's the other thing so in 1993 the tribe here the native the native irishman they sue bingo partnership inc which is his company that he's an investor in for fraud oh yeah this is uh triano richard hickey dick hickey come on man dick hickey dick hickey is his name dicky hickey his name is dick hickeykey. His name is Dick Hickey.

You can't name your fucking kid. Think about what your last name is before you name your kid Richard. Please, for the love of Christ, nothing funny, I beg of you. And if it's something, if your last name is something that requires sucking to do, never name your kid Dick Hickey. A Dick Hickey. That's terrible. No one wants dick hickeys. No, those are generally AIDS.

That's called syphilis when you have dick hickeys. Those are called lesions. Yeah. It's not good. So Dick Hickey and Ronald Cohn here, those are the principals named in the lawsuit. And then the three of them counters sue the tribe and uh holy shit so they were partners like we said but i guess i don't know what the hell happened exactly but the there was all sorts of issues with how the money was raised and who got a loan but they go

back all these questions go back to like 1983 i guess triano and his partners created a management arm to run the bingo in exchange for 40 of the profits but the tribal leaders wanted more for themselves and less for them you know less for them but they invested capital though so it's hard so this fight escalated as the bingo hall got bigger and bigger and bigger and as they added slot machines making it more lucrative once there's more money involved then it's going to be something here the associate yeah i guess that they said that the um they reported in 1992 that 80 of the 225 slots acquired by the tribe were leased or purchased from two new jersey

manufacturers with close ties to the mafia because who do you think makes slot machines yeah in 1992 you know people like that so triano they said was not directly involved in ordering the machines because they're like you know not his fault, basically. Yeah. So 1993, here, the tribe forces Triano out. And they said that their investment group had earned 40% of about $4 million in annual gross revenues at the bingo hall in 1991. $1.8 million? So they got $40%. I thought 10% in my mind for some reason. So yeah, 1.6 million, somewhere in the ballpark of that.

So Triano, they said, used $150,000 worth of tribal certificates of deposit as collateral on a loan he secured for bingo partnership from a Tucson bank. So they said they didn't learn about the transaction until five years later. And they also said that bingo partnership, Catriona's company engaged in other improper financial transactions, which were not specified. And this lawsuit just went on and on and on and all this type of shit. Basically, it's everybody he's around. He owes money to them they

owe money to him there's a problem pam uh they said pam was asked this quote your husband he owed a casino in vegas several million dollars 1.8 million to an ex-wife 91 000 to an attorney hundreds of thousands of dollars to a group of Mexican investors who people said were involved in criminal activity. And Pam said, probably, which is a great answer. That's just, that sounds like him. I mean, hold on a minute. Let me, yeah. You know what? That's my guy. It's the guy I married. He's being it again. He's being sued every direction. Summer 1993, Pam and Gary separate. They get separated, and they'll eventually get divorced here. Oh, it's over, huh?

She's eventually going to move to Aspen with the children. Hell yeah. She's like, this isn't hoity-toity enough for me. Well, it could be Aspen. There we go. Yeah, I need something real fucking upper-crusting. Real upscale here. He stayed in Tucson, and September of 1993, Pam seeks the first of what will be three restraining orders against Gary.

What? Whom she said harassed and threatened her and i guess she kicked them out of their their home in the summer of 93 when they were you know fighting initially here she seats seeks these restraining orders saying he's prone to violence saying he had a loaded gun all the time in the front seat of his car, which was a Cadillac Eldorado, of course. Hell yeah. God damn it. Gary, Gary, why do you got to be stereotyping me?

I mean, this is killing me, Gary. I'm trying to say every week, I'm like, why do we have to be that? And then you're that. Also, with Triano vanity license plate as well. Really? Yeah, he's going all the way. A mob guy would never put his last name on a license plate. So that's how you know he's not in the mob right there.

I'll tell you that. So she said he would mix booze with antidepressants. He threw things around the house, tore her clothes up, and would call or show up at all hours. She complained in court papers. This is the most rich person court paper shit you've ever seen in your life. If you want to see comedy, and I used to be a process server, so trust me on this, read rich people's divorce cases. They're fucking hilarious.

The things they complain about, you're like, wow, you people have very little problems. This is amazing. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondery+, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager,

but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars' Kelly Marie Tran,

Chinook is available exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little

bit of cursing. This mother****er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar. And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal. Or you love to hop in the Wayback Machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes.

You should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. In May of 1980, near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend

had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle and theory, walking through the forensic evidence, and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened.

And with over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. She said, quote, all of my household help has been scared away. I have to do everything on my own.

The maid left. Are you kidding me? Not your fucking maids, really? You have to clean now? Wow. I had to water plants last week. All of the domestic servants left. Like, the fuck is wrong with you?

November of 1993, they divorce here. So that was quick. That's like three months in and out divorce that's 90 days that is in and out and that's because she he has nothing to get and she has nothing and she's not going to give him shit so they decide it's kind of a we'll just cut ties

he in 1994 files for chapter 11 bankruptcy reorganization for his frontier investments business that he owns, citing, check this out, buckle up, $40 million in debts. 1994, $40 million, not even now $40 million, which is still $40 fucking million. In 1994, $40 million was like 120 million dollars now. Yeah, this is, 40 million's huge.

Wow. So, yeah, he files that bankruptcy. Of 22 creditors who filed claims, the IRS listed a claim of about 2.1 million against him as well. Yeah, yeah. So he owed a shitload in taxes, a couple of banks that had him for about over a million dollars. The Mirage Hotel and Casino, he owed 55 grand to. So just some examples of just 22 different creditors he owes here, this one, that one. It's a lot here.

March of 1994, Pam files police complaints against Gary twice, saying that he continues to harass her despite the restraining orders. Okay. He answers a court claim against her, accusing her, though. He then says no and files a thing against her, accusing her of malicious prosecution and defamation. Oh, boy. And everybody's case is thrown out. They just say, fuck you too you don't even live in the same city anymore shut the fuck up you stay away from her yeah you stay away from

him and shut the fuck up both of you i'm gonna slam your fucking heads together you two are rich shut up stop this your lives are so easy yeah you'll both find somebody else, no problem. This is how silly it gets. During their divorce proceedings in court, during all of this, while they're fighting, oh, little details, March 10th, 1994, Pam, she became infuriated. She gets arrested in the court. In court. In court. Well, in the hallway of the court, not in the courtroom, but at the court building.

She got super mad because she thought that Gary was mocking her with laughter, which probably was. When you divorce somebody, all you have is to mock them with laughter. That's all you have in your quiver. That's your only arrow. So you fucking pull it out whenever you can. Sorry, I slung it sorry but that's this is making a padding around my soul here i have to laugh at you so sometimes that's the only thing that i text if my ex-wife texts me just a fucking laughing

emoji that's all you can do that's it mocking you with laughter i want nothing to do with this that's all well this was was during a break in court. She went out in the hallway, thought he had mocked her with laughter, so she threw a glass of water on him. She dumped water on his head. You can't do that. No. So they arrested her. Yeah, for assault.

For assault, which is, that's just silly. It's fun. It's so dumb. Don't call it assault. We need a whole separate, we just need a separate thing for it. Or battery, because battery sounds like you punch somebody repeatedly. Battery, like to batter somebody is like they beat the shit out of them. Yeah.

That's battery. Batter means there was blood. That's just be battered them. Holy shit. That's like the ref called the fight because one boxer was battering the other one. The ref stepped in and waved it off. Could we call it fifth degree assault?

Fifth degree non-injurious assault. Non-violent assault. Non-violent, non-injurious, something like that. Because it's not even spit. If you spit at someone, you could get them sick. A glass of water, it's impossible unless it's the Wicked Witch of the West

that you're dealing with. it's not a problem. Or a gremlin. Well, they're going to be happy because then they're going to make more gremlins. But the Wicked Witch is going to melt. Wicked Witch is going to melt. So that's bad. Yeah, but Gizmo wanted to eat after midnight. So he apparently wanted – because that's – how else would their species continue unless they had an evolutionary need to reproduce.

Sure. But the eating caused more? Yeah, remember they gave him the chicken? Yeah. Because the gremlins had said not to, they disconnected the clock. Not to feed him after that, right. And so it was, because they wanted more of gremlins. But the water, I get it because it's like on the skin, but I don't understand the part how does it tell time is it a time zone thing is this only eastern time if you go out west can

you not feed him after nine he was not specific that old asian man was not nearly specific and dude didn't even ask a bunch of questions he was like all right right, yeah, midnight, I got it. And then he left. Sure, I got it. See you around. I've watched so many specifics. For the problems that those two failures bring around, you know what I mean? You should be a lot. You don't understand. Sincerely, don't feed him.

It's fucked up. It's not like he'll get a rash. No. He will produce monsters that will tear apart the town that's what he'll do monsters that will flash people and do all sorts of crazy shit and they're very smart wires out of things do little funny sketches and bars things like that yeah they they start doing fucking improv for christ's sake it's a nightmare it's a nightmare a little funny a little funny let's just say if you're not looking if you're

looking through a window it's funny it's maybe the best improv you've ever seen but it's fucking it's crazy phoebe cates wasn't didn't look too afraid of them you know what i mean she looked like they were more of an annoyance all right enough okay so she ends up taking out another restraining order against him in aspen this time yeah saying that a friend had told her that gary had announced to a bunch of friends that if it weren't for their kids she'd be dead oh which that's something that somebody blusters while they're getting a divorce because there are the kids so that's not a thing right you know what i mean anyway because that it's dumb right it's a steam blowing off dipshittery dumb thing to say you

shouldn't say it honestly and that will that'll get you a restraining order that'll earn you one you know that sounds like a nasty threat yeah you earned it you earned it with that one whether you meant it or not yeah so 1995 platinum luxury real estate platinum luxury real estate and platinum mortgage and financial services inc here um he was working there or has a piece of that place or some shit and he meets and falls in love with a young lady and i say young because she's 22 years younger than him which is again a status symbol for a man like him who needs a jet and a limo and all that stuff 22 years younger he's also trying to prove a point to to Mary that he's still got it. That's, oh, yeah. Well, her name is Robin Gardner, and they have a child together pretty quick.

Oh, my God. Yeah, we're talking, like, the next year they have a kid together. A 50-something-year-old man is creating more children. Oh, yeah, more. He's, like, 51, 52. She's, you know, in her early 30s. Oh, Jesus. So he refuses to marry her, more. He's like 51, 52. She's in her early 30s. Oh, Jesus. So he refuses to marry her, though.

He won't marry her. He said, I've already got two divorces. Not doing it again. So then that made a big mess because then they would accuse each other of violence and abuse at the same time. He called 911 at one point to report that Robin threw a vase at him in the garage of their home. Okay. So that's what's going on here between those two. So it's been like less than a year and the police are already involved.

Yeah, and every relationship this man has is volatile. It's very volatile, which he likes volatility. So he seeks out women who will help be that. He's not going to seek out someone that isn't going to contribute to his volatility. You know, that's what you do. So October 1995, he has a life insurance policy. And it's changed because it was going to, I believe, his wife, Pam Phillips. going to, I believe, his wife, Pam Phillips.

Yeah. So now, for some reason, this makes now Joy Bancroft, which is a friend of Pam's, responsible for the premium payments. Oh. I don't know why that is. So in Tucson here, Gary would frequent the Olive Tree Restaurant. Yeah. I don't know if that's, do you know what that is in Tucson? Feels like a small town thing yeah

yeah yeah he they said he always had the lamb chops and a bottle of wine there oh this thing here oh yeah said he was never without a cell phone even in the night mid 90s when sure sure wasn't a big thing uh his one friend though john condis who was an ex-cop and he owned this restaurant he says he wasn't playing the big shot. How do you figure, man? Which is the opposite of what everybody else says. They said he was on the phone with his kids in Aspen. That's a pretty big shot.

You can't call from home. You call your kids in Aspen while you eat lamb chops and drink a bottle of wine for a crazy amount of money. That's what a cell phone call from state to state would fucking cost you back then. Ridiculous, yeah. It's insane. His friend said he loved and missed his kids, which I'm sure he did. I bet he did, yeah.

That's not a matter of that. They would just sit around and talk about business or that kind of thing. He said at one point in this restaurant there was a beautiful hostess who was a u of a student and she said that she was repulsed by gary's quote constant groping oh yeah he was going in i'm friends with the owner i spend money i get good wine i went there 35 years ago and he years ago. And he puts his hands all over some fucking girl in her early 20s because he thinks that he's entitled to that. So that's what he does. And she said also he's always flashing money.

He's always a big flash guy. And then she's just like, eh, just not into that. She also says, quote, he liked them young. That's what a friend of his said. God, that's so gross. He liked them young. I guess so if he's fucking with trying to get women that are 30 he was like 20 i messed with a girl who's 20 years younger than me

not young enough yeah how about let's try 30 oh god let's try younger than all my children what about that younger than my first two children what do you say i don't understand how a guy has sex with a girl younger than his daughter i can't i just it makes my fucking head explode of how you don't go ew gross what year were you born yeah i was you weren't even a thought yet and i was in a hospital like going come on push like that's fucking bonkers we can't be together i was begging a doctor to make me to let me stay here longer because i can't take care of this. And you were born after that.

After that. The fuck out of here. What are you talking about? That's crazy. So October of 1996 comes around. Now, Yorba Linda, California. Yeah. What does that have to do with anything?

Well, their police department recover an abandoned car. Who cares? Right. Rented by a guy named Ronald Young. Who gives a shit? You're saying, I don't know who the fucking that guy is. We haven't even talked about this guy. Okay.

Well, inside are all of Triano and Pam Phillips divorce records. Okay. He's got that. He has a credit report in pam phillips name and he's got a laptop computer and a sawed-off shotgun interesting this is in a rental car rented by a guy named ronald young so they find that it's just abandoned this rental car and they find all this shit to the point where they're towing it. A car has been sitting somewhere that long with all my fucking personal records in it? All my personal records and a laptop and all this shit. And a sawed-off shotgun.

So, yeah, that's what happens then. Keep that in mind, Ronald Young, there. So, now, Triano, at this point, he's working on a bunch of shit. He's working on a system to bleed hydraulic brakes. He's trying to invest in some company that does that. He's also working on being a partner and an investor in a casino on the Chinese island of Hainan. He wants to be a partner of that. In a Chinese casino, which is in the Gulf of Tonkin.

This would be the first such casino in china and he wanted in on this shit obviously yeah so you gotta get in on that yeah the first the first casino in china but they're gonna let him in on it why yeah what what do you have nothing there's a billion and a half people in china none of them are fucking can pull us off they need you none of them have five dollars because you don't you don't well let's talk about exactly what he has november 1st 1996 this is the la paloma resort which he has been a member of except the problem is is he uh received notice two weeks ago that he would be cut off in the next month because he was not paid up on dues and fees. Unpaid dues, yep. Yeah, so he's squeezing the last bit of golf he can out of this place, basically.

Yeah, he's got a couple of foursomes coming up. Yeah, that's what he did. He went and played golf this afternoon, and friends said that he was at the country club to play golf, as he does regularly throughout the week. He plays multiple times a week. the country club to play golf as he does regularly throughout the week he plays multiple times a week he was supposed to meet friends at a local restaurant after the golf club or after he went golfing at 6 p.m and then his friends that he was meeting were supposed to go back to his house to hang out where a bunch of his other friends had a surprise birthday party waiting for him because it's his birthday in a few days very nice it's his birthday in three days so these friends he's going to meet are just the distraction friends

you keep them at dinner for an hour while we get the fucking yeah we get the strippers and put the blow up exactly well we got to get the naked girl in the cake and that's hard you know she she gets she yells a lot when the oven gets hot it's really weird did you put the girl in after you baked the cake, Lurch? When did you put the girl in? Oh, this isn't going to work at all. Nah. He's not going to want to see this. So that's the plan here. So he finishes up the round of golf, and he joined partners of his in the clubhouse afterwards.

You know, he's doing all of that. He gets in. He goes to leave. he gets some chips and salsa and shit like that he's you know stops to talk to somebody in the parking lot says hello or goodbye or all that kind of thing then he gets into his borrowed car because he doesn't even have a car at this point because he's got all sorts of bankruptcy so he gets into his borrowed 1989 Lincoln Town car. All right. It was a nice big car.

And he's a big guy, like we said. So he gets in there. Next to him is a 25-year-old, I believe, named Keisho Kudo is his name. Both with a K. Keisho Kudo. He's parked in a minivan reading a golf magazine waiting for a friend of his to finish a round of golf that he's picking up. So, yeah, he saw at this point what he called a well-worn, faded old Monte Carlo pull out of the parking lot, he said. Now, Gary gets into the Lincoln, sits there.

Everything's fine he looks down on the passenger side of the lincoln and he sees a blue canvas bag on the passenger side of the lincoln but he's like this isn't mine he's out there but he thought it was probably a birthday gift or since everyone knows it's his birthday in a couple days because he was talking about it and you know he has a ton of friends at the club he thinks it's a birthday gift maybe it's like someone fucking with him for his birthday. Like it's going to be like a, you know, a bunch of like dick confetti or something. 107 dildos in there. That's that's.

Oh, boy. You got me. You got me. He leaned over and he reached to basically in the bag was like a like a like a stash box, like a wooden cigar box. A humidor, like a little humidor thing that people have on their desks. That's a great gift. Great gift. Those are fantastic.

So it's one of those. He reaches for that to open it, and it explodes. Kaboom. And I'm talking when it explodes, it's not a small explosion. Let's talk about what a witness said here. This is 5.30 p.m.'s talk about what a witness said here. This is 530 p.m. Randy Folds is a witness's name. He's a marketing director for the news station around there for one of the news programs on a station.

He and his wife were driving westbound on Sunrise Drive when the explosion happened. He said, we heard this loud explosion and about five seconds later, metal and glass fell on our car. Oh, it was a big one. So think about that from the road. That's how big it is. He said it was the loudest thing I've ever heard. It sounded like it was right underneath our car. Oh, no.

It's in a parking lot, not even on the road. Yeah. He said that he turned his car into the country club parking lot and he saw kisho kudo the guy who was sitting next door to gary's car in a minivan stumble away from what he called a smoking car it was a so big that the car next door the guy is fucked up fucking dazed yeah the folds guy the witness said that kudo sat down on a curb and he had a gash on his head wow probably broken glass or something like that so folds he said he approached the car that was smoking the car that exploded to see if he could give help somebody

and he said quote all i could see was a hand and an arm. And he knew that this was well beyond saving. And he didn't want to see anymore. Oh, he saw a fucking arm sitting there. If you just see an arm just hanging out by itself, that's probably nothing left. It's beyond like chest compressions at this point. Or like maybe I can do some CPR. Yeah, there's no getting his lungs moving. No, this isn't let's hold his nose and blow into his fucking mouth here. You got to getting his lungs moving no this isn't what's you know blow cold

his nose and blow into his fucking mouth you gotta find his lungs this is crazy put his lungs together with his esophagus and his windpipe and oh shit never mind so uh the university of arizona cardiologist told the newspaper that um uh that he was there to meet friends for drinks at the country club. So he said he heard the explosion, and as he walked near the pro shop, he ran toward the explosion, toward the parking lot, and he said that he saw Triano's body in there, and he said he reached to feel a pulse but then backed away because he saw smoke and flames still coming out. So he's like, Jesus Christ, I can't get involved in this.

So this is a lot. They said that the bomb was so powerful that it sent debris flying 200 yards into the air. 200 yards. That's 600 feet into the fucking air. It's so high. They said the windshield actually flew over the trees in the parking lot and to the swimming pool area well beyond it. Wow. The fucking windshield of the car.

Blew out. Which is heavy. I don't know if you've ever put a windshield in. I have put a windshield in an 85 Oldsmobile, and that fucking thing was heavy, and me and my father, it's on your fingertips, and you got to get it. A 1989 Lincoln's very similar. That's a big, heavy windshield. Yeah. That's a lot.

So passersby reported that it was a tremendously large blast that sent metal and glass raining down everywhere within a 75 to 100 yard range around the place. Basically, they said that it tore the roof completely off the 89 town car. Jesus. Buckled and shredded the hood and nearly took the doors off their hinges. Oh, my God. Yeah, there was glass and shrapnel all over the westbound lanes of Sunrise Drive. Stuck to the asphalt in the eastbound lanes was a melted piece of rubber molding stuck there because it was hot when it landed yeah um another in another spot was a tucson

rod and gun club emblem still stuck to the back window of the glass oh my god because that was broken um so the they for some the crazy part is they have to wait for the medical examiner to come because gary is absolutely dead in there and they have to wait seven hours for him to get there jesus in the meantime somehow the car's headlights remained on this huge explosion blew everything apart the fucking headlights still worked yeah i mean i guess i guess it just like the blast may have soldered the positive and negative together maybe it's never going off now oh right or it just or the explosion just flipped the switch and i mean the car doesn't have to be on for your headlights to stay on that's what i mean they're on announcements in

shopping center uh buick skylark this lies is what your headlights are on get outside asshole you're not gonna be able to leave your shit won't start so they had him sitting in there in the car for seven hours with the headlights on waiting for dr bruce o parks and uh he stayed about five feet from the car at that point. He said from there he could see a huge gash in Gary's right leg. When they brought his body to the morgue, they said it ended up being a nine-hour and 15-minute autopsy. Really? That sounds like a long autopsy.

But they have to kind of put them back together here. They said that he was all bloody. to kind of put him back together here. They said that he was all bloody. There was charcoal-like dust covering a lot of his wounds as well, so they had to deal with that. They said part of his right hand and tendon were brought in in a separate bag. That blew off. That was what he was opening it with, the bomb.

The stump and injured left hand were covered with white paper bags. That's to keep DNA and physical evidence on there his shirt uh was torn and melted onto his body oh ouch let's talk about his injuries that he received besides his losing his fucking hand and having a stump now the blast opened up his skull really opened it up split his skull apart by an inch and a half on the right part of his forehead for a length of more than four inches. That's like. Inch and a half wide opening in your scalp that's four inches long. Not scalp, skull. Skull.

His skull broke open. In your face, yeah. In your fucking head. Wow. That's a huge chunk of skull that's missing. Wow. Metal from the pipe bomb was found in his brain yeah it went through that hole yeah fuck man his hair was singed his eyes ruptured ruptured like in a fucking electric chair in 1910 exploded his eyes yes that's the kind of heat we're talking about his right hand except for

his pinky was blown off sending it flying the hand was found in the parking lot somewhere oh god that's fucking insane here his right arm was broken above the elbow and the blast split his abdomen split his 250 pound fucking abdomen and severely cut his liver as well wow the uh the his watch was stopped at 5 38 p.m so that's what time this happened yeah the uh explosion blew out the passenger window of the van next door that kudo guy's van cutting and bruising him he only required some stitches and shit like that he was fine uh but it's they said the device was simple they said but it was uh one cop said it was of artistic precision simple but well made yeah you know like a like a really good tomato sauce simple very few ingredients, nice clean flavor.

That's what it is. Yeah, it's what it is. It's that, a little bit of olive oil. So they said also when they did the autopsy, despite the fact that he was a heavyset guy in his early 50s, they said his organs were in great shape. They said except for the damage from the blast, they said he could have very easily lived to be an old, old guy. That's what happens when you eat good foods need good foods man yeah minimal coronary shit um same with his aorta his brain was good everything was fine you know wow except for having metal in it so they said he had no

booze in his system at all only caffeine showed on lab tests and it said that he had recently eaten tortillas or tortilla chips olives green chili tomato and onion which is salsa that's what he was doing he was eating chips and salsa at the club on the way out had a couple of bites of that and then he was going later on coffee or a tea or something yeah um his gray slacks his golf pants were torn inside the front pocket of his shirt yeah they found a broken plastic divot tool sure you know put divots back down and and one dime 10 cents oh that's that's to mark the ball that's to mark the ball the other pocket were another dime and two pennies yes so he had and he had no money in the bank he had 22 cents to his name essentially

22 because he was in all sorts of debt and had no money and everything else that is somebody else's car his liquid money was 22 cents at that moment in time his he was marking the ball with half of his ass with his half of his net worth i put half my net worth that the ball landed here actually it's not even because he owed so much money that's no it's not even net worth and someone's gonna come and take his dime one of his creditors gonna run across the fucking 12th green and grab his dime up not so fast buddy and keep going. Half his gross worth. Still owe us fucking $4 million. Sorry. So witnesses, more witnesses.

One witness early on the scene reported seeing body parts amid the wreckage. Yeah. Also came upon the Kudo guy as well here. Jesus Christ. So there's a couple of kids as well. A kid named Colin Wilkinson who's 13. He was in the nearby desert with some friends when he heard a big

boom. He said the ground was shaking and at first I thought it was a crack of thunder. That's loud. That Arizona thunder when it's deep it's like you feel it in your bones. It rumbles. It's deep. He said that he later saw that the car's hood was shredded

and he said my heart was really beating i thought it was a big bomb but she was right good guess man nice job not bad another kid named justin who's 11 was at the tennis clinic with his father he said i looked in the air and there was shattered glass and ashes flying everywhere i ran up to see what happened and the car was just smoking it was really weird looking only an 11 year old really weird looking early an 11 year old would describe the smoking wreckage of a lincoln intertwined with mashed body parts as really weird looking only an 11 year old could do that yeah that's why you don't ask 11 year olds to describe shit because that's what you get he was either really cool or really weird looking you're getting one

of the two he said it was really weird looking it sounded like a sonic boom that i've heard at the air shows oh the planes make yeah um they said about 25 cars were in the parking lot at the time. No other guests were hurt. That Kudo guy was the only guy here. One of the police sergeants said he's been in Tucson for 37 years and said this was the first fatal vehicle explosion in the city in that time, in 37 years that he's been there. So there's one other guy named Gus Fotinos. He had played at the golf course with Triano numerous times. On this day, he was in another foursome.

He was in the foursome behind them. Oh. He said, I was in the clubhouse when I heard the boom. So they had just got done. Yeah, he was just wrapping up. Yeah. And he said, one member came in as white as could be. I started to go out, and then another member came in and said there was a car bomb,

and it got Gary Triano, and his face and chest had been blown off. I didn't need to see that, the guy said. They went out and saw him exploded with a bomb. Yeah, with a fucking hole in his skull. No head, no chest. Don't go out there. Bad stuff. Stay in here.

There's chips and salsa. Fucking stay where. Buy the amount of balls you lost today and go home yeah i'm telling that's the that's the uh the lesson to be learned here when in doubt just stay and eat chips and salsa enjoy the chips and salsa enjoy it enjoy it um while awaiting the cops paramedics and others here they all showed up and uh Medics and others here, they all showed up and looked at it and were just horrified by it. Sure. The Fotino's guy said he liked Gary.

He said, I've been here 50 years. He was a man about town. I don't think there was anybody in business who didn't know him. He was extremely smart. I enjoyed our relationship. He said, I was in absolute shock about this. I would never anticipate this sort of thing happening to anyone let alone one of my friends yeah you know weird car bomb yeah it's weird the police say uh one guy this is pima county sheriff clarence dupnick he said this looks very much like a professional hit

it was an extremely powerful device placed in the right front portion of the vehicle it's not your average everyday murder plot here. Professional hit, though, of like a – he has to participate in his own hit. He has to actually open it. You know what I mean? Well, yeah. That's very rare. That's, I mean, what bomb guys used to do when they start your car, it explodes.

That was – Yeah, but that's not really – You participate. You don't know that you're participating. True. This one, you know that you're participating. And that's hooked into something. Well, it's not really – You don't know that you're participating. True. This one you know that you're participating. And that's hooked into something. Well, it's not only that.

He's not participating in it because we'll find out what the bomb is. But he didn't have to go. He didn't have to do shit. He just had to be next to it. It was going to go, huh? It was going to go, yeah. Oh, boy. Somebody was setting it that way.

We'll talk about it. So they said that a lot of people – he said you have have to understand, this is the same guy, does as Dupnick. You have to understand that his financial situation could be best described as very desperate. He was having a difficult time serving on a day-to-day basis. He said there's a number of people who would have reason to be angry with him. Some in his personal relationships. Other problems could have cropped up from his financial relationships. We're looking at the possibility it could be the mob.

Every time. Okay. In the past, the mob has used this message. Not only is it powerful, a powerful, violent way to kill, but it sends a message perhaps to others. It's speculation, but it's a disconcerting speculation disconcerting speculation yeah it is disconcerting that you'd say that it's got to be the mob what's his fucking triano yeah of course she's i hope i never die in a mysterious way because it doesn't matter so friends of his here here's one person uh, Shannon Travis, who's a Tucson City reporter, and her fiance were carrying a gift of wine and wine glasses and had all this shit.

And they said that they were showing up to the party, his surprise birthday party, with glasses they made and painted for him. And they were told by two of Gary's friends that we've got some bad news gary's dead they said yeah that's that's the party's over at that point yeah that's not good so um they said no it can't be him you know they said he's supposed to be here how could it be him and they said well shit we talked to his girlfriend because he's got another girlfriend now at this point jesus they said he talked to his girlfriend a little more than before they arrived the girlfriend had worked hard to organize the party she even tried to fly his two youngest children well not two of his almost youngest he's got one younger from aspen in for the event but didn't work here uh but his his grown daughter

heather was going to be there so it was a a big plan. And they were, you know, he had another real estate broker friend and his wife that were going to meet him at the restaurant at 6 at Janoff's. And then they were going to take him home. And that couple said when he didn't show up by 6 o'clock, we couldn't understand what happened to him. And then a little while after that, investigators found out about his girlfriend, told her. She told everybody else. So it's rough. Now, Shannon Travis, who is a friend of the Triano family, said family members are afraid and also pissed off by the media at this point. Okay.

She said, quote, it's hurtful to the family to hear those kind of things such as mob connection speculation. Gary has lots of different business deals and there's so much speculation. But those of us who knew him as friends and family members know the generous, loving person he was. So the investigation, they're going to have to get the Bureau of Tobacco, our alcohol, tobacco and firearms, along with the FBI here to the scene, as well as the Pima County Sheriff's Department and the bomb squad. And anyone else will take a crack at looking at this shit. All law enforcement. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. They take aerial photos. They do everything here. So any suspects off the top of our head? Let's find out here. They said one of the police officers said Gary was definitely a target. Gary suspected he was being followed. He had told a target. Gary suspected he was being followed, he had told a friend. He told people

he was being followed by an individual that was driving a Jeep-type SUV. In the mid-90s. Yeah, Suzuki Samurai or a Jeep. Anything, yeah, anything like that. And so they said that there was a similar

vehicle seen at the La Paloma Resort right when the bombing happened. Oh. So from the parking lot, there was a maroon Explorer, which fits the description, driven by a man on a cell phone. And he pulled away right before the explosion. But the driver was a club member. He was cleared. He was just talking to someone. It wasn't him. His cell phone was a club member. He was cleared. He was just talking to someone.

It wasn't him. His cell phone records backed that up. There was that. And there was passengers and drivers in a Monte Carlo. They were club employees. They were fine. A man, Kudo, the guy who got hurt next door there in the minivan, he said that he saw a man next to Triano's car,

but that also ended up being a member of his golf party that day yeah so that would be a neat trick i i gotta take a leak i'm gonna head on in quick and plant a bomb in your car that is the thing about golf if you go to do it if you play one round you're leaving your car somewhere for four fucking hours and if you play twice just multiply it babe you can leave that car there all fucking day and yeah what you're supposed to keep track of who's been near it fucking everybody's been near it and if you play twice you really hate your wife that's what you're saying you don't want to be around her at all guys who like their wives generally don't play a lot of

golf that's the thing not two rounds in one day guys who either like their wives generally don't play a lot of golf. That's the thing. Not two rounds in one day. Guys who either like their wives or are deadly afraid of their wives don't play two games. So they're asking, what about enemies? He's got some enemies. He's got an ex-wife, an ex-girlfriend. They're both pissed off at him. What about the Indian tribe? They're pissed off at him.

Oh, the Tohono O'odhums, yeah. He owes Vegas casinos a bunch of money. He owes the MGM, one of the biggest ones. The Mirage. The Mirage, yeah. He owes that. What about Chinese investors he's been fucking around with? Oh, my.

What about speculators that were also involved in the Chinese investor casino deal? The fucking Yakuza. He's with a lot of shady characters here. So he is working on all sorts of shit. Um, at this moment in time, they're trying to figure it out here. Um,

I guess there's a guy named Michael sang. Who's a Tucson businessman. He was the link to the Chinese deal here. Financing was coming from some Illinois based source here. Um, but the guy who provided the financing for that, a guy named Gary Fears, he said that he had nothing to do with this, obviously. It didn't touch Gary Triano, and he even took a polygraph exam. Okay.

Okay. What about his divorce? Yeah, she can only pass. Sure. Yeah, they were talking about that. They were going back and forth about tax documents that he had filed saying he filed shit wrong. So they're trying to get him in trouble with the IRS and all that sort of thing. One of the police sergeants says that it appears that everyone in the China deal reconciled with one another. So he doesn't think it was the China deal reconciled with one another so he doesn't

think it was the china deal because everyone seemed fine to walk away from that um they said though you never know it's he said it might not be some big business deal it might not be a domestic volatility it might not be owing a casino or pissing the mob off it might be something small there might be a small thing he talks to a lot of people he might have pissed somebody the wrong you may have made a left turn in front of somebody in fucking tucson traffic we don't know yeah tucson's a crazy place man it's the florida of arizona you never know so they said um you know for all of his high-powered bullshit and everything else he might have just pissed off some minor investor someone somewhere just got tired of his shit. So the sergeant here, O'Connor, said,

What has always intrigued me is for all his familiarity with politicians and connections to the high end, he was dealing sometimes or living on the dark side of what I consider hardworking people but low rent. Maybe a little old lady who had given him her life savings and or one or two thousand or three thousand dollars and getting the feeling that he's ripping them off he had plenty of those little investors he would take a couple grand from this person so you piss off somebody where two grand's a lot of money to them that motherfucker will kill you well before some rich guy who you got half a million with you know what i mean a lady might drop a romeo and juliet box in your in your that's fucking you never know road car her son might her

grandson might that's the other part somebody else's car got blown to shit i hope that's insured someone else was driving it now it's insured who the knows? Did they cover that? Jesus Christ. But that's huge. Business people are used to eating their fucking lunch on a few hundred grand here and there because it happens in business where someone who gave you their last two thousand dollars, they don't expect to lose that shit. They're going to be pissed when they are. The cops said, quote, What if one of them has a former Navy SEAL suit doing some handiwork or errands for them and all they hear is complaining about Triano? What if they say one day, want me to take care of that for you? Could just be that. When you're dealing with someone with so many connections to money, could be anybody.

They might have a Navy SEAL friend that's just willing to do something. That's a very specific thing. It is, yeah. Not just some fucking loose-with-the-law son-in-law or some shit. We're talking a Navy SEAL landscaper. That builds artsy fucking bombs. Yeah, he's a landscaper, and he just heard you walking around your property. He heard you saying some shit about him.

He's like, I can take care of that. He goes, when I'm done edging over here by the garden, you want me to take care of that for you? I got some PVC in the truck. I'll head right over. You want I should blow that guy up or what? Wow. A friend of his says here, this is Dr. Lawrence D'Antonio, a Tucson family physician. He said, I've known Gary Triano since I was a little boy.

He is convinced that mobsters killed Gary. Really? Because he says that Gary owed them money and wouldn't pay them. Okay. He said, listen, guinea to guinea, it was, you know, I know who did this. Guinea to guinea, I know. Guinea to guinea, I know what's going on. He said he's a very flamboyant man and he's also very good looking, but he's rotten to the core.

He was a con man. He was a thief and he would rob or steal from anybody, including his own family, his own wife. That's the way he was, which kind of lines up. If the guy who's known you since you were a kid says that and it kind of lines up with everything you've done in your life, that's probably true. Like, not to be a dick and besmirch the name of the murdered, but I mean if he was an asshole, he's an asshole. What are you going to say? You know? I don't understand why they put the

good-looking part in. Because that's how he kept getting women. He got pretty women. All the women he got were pretty, so it also upped his ego even more that he could get away with anything. He also, Dr. D'Antoni says, Triano associated with known criminals, including one of his first business deals was partially financed by Joe Bonanno, who you don't know who he is. He was one of the biggest bosses in the history of the mafia, ran the Bonanno family until some shit happened and he made a d he's he was such a powerful motherfucker that when the mob wanted rid of him they couldn't even kill him or get to him

they let him make a deal to retire and then they let him let him go and he didn't retire but it was just i'll retire from new york i won't be here i'll go to arizona and do my thing and they said okay because it's easier than dealing with it. Don't be here. Yeah. Don't be here. So that's how badass he was. So he said, they said, he was asked, was Gary living a very dangerous lifestyle?

And his friend said, oh, absolutely. Gary carried a gun all the time, which is what his wife said, too. So he said that D'Antonio said he's seen proof that gary triana was on a quote kill list oh who shows people their kill list he shows their family physician their kill list why didn't you take note and uh tell those people doc i got a weird lump here and i'm gonna kill all these people can you check both those things out for me are both side are any of these people your uh patients also yeah check my testicles also yeah my balls feeling a little weird i dribble again he said there were a lot of names on this list and some names would come and go but gary triana was always at the top of the list who are you fucking hanging out with

you've seen this list multiple times and seen to it so many times you've seen names disappear and reappear yeah oh him okay yeah he's fine that guy again so he goes on to say i absolutely i'm absolutely sure i was absolutely sure that gary triano had just been murdered by neil mcneice m-c-n-e-i-c-e mcneese okay who the fuck is neil mcneese love to know let's find out here um all about this now there's an investigator who works i think works for pam at some point here because pam has the kids or whatever um he said that quote i'm old style i blend in i fit in that's the investigator describing himself. Old style. Yeah. He was working for Pam Phillips to try to find, see if this guy McNeese killed Gary.

This is what Reedy said. Quote, I'll tell you what I think happened. I think Gary really burned somebody really good and somebody was really upset and someone was going to kill him. You think a car bomb? Yeah, probably. Wow, you're a great investigator. He was blown up in the parking lot. Nobody thinks that that's not an accident.

It's not because he ate too much. Somebody just misplaced their bomb and he happened to find it. He didn't overeat and explode his stomach. Somebody put a bomb in there, man. Split his skull open. So they said, this Reedy says, this man here is the man that orchestrated this. And he says, this is Neil McNeese. He said, when Neil McNeese was on drugs, he was a completely psychotic, insane guy.

That's what Reedy says. insane guy is what reedy says he says all i ever met in his world his entourage was drug dealers drug addicts strippers prostitutes and bad guys well i know a lot of people like that but none of them were murderers that's the thing so he hangs out with all the prostitutes yeah he said he had a lot of bad guys that worked for him and he said said McNeese was a rich kid who inherited millions of dollars from his family's uranium mining fortune. What? He even owned a piece of an Indy race car team. Somehow their family bought land that had fucking uranium on it? Uranium.

I didn't even know that was a thing you could pull out of the ground in america i figured that was you know i don't know next to the diamonds in fucking the congo or some shit you know i had no idea all the luck he bought he bought land it's flush with uranium fucking uranium man you know that seems hard to get uranium doesn't it feels like that's probably gloves for that right he gloves for that, right? You need gloves for that, I feel like. Yeah, I don't think you just send random immigrants down to pull that one out. You don't bite it with your teeth to see if it's real, like with a gold nugget?

See if it's soft enough. Uranium, yep, that's the stuff right there. I lost all the hair on that side of my body, so that's got to be it. And a bicuspid, so I think yes. They said that, this is wild, D'Antonio, who was once McNeese's personal physician. Hey, how about don't talk about your fucking patients? Hippowas and shit. He said his patients slipped into an even faster lane.

He's now going to talk about his health. This is crazy. Oh, my God. He said he was heavily on drugs, and his drugs were cocaine and heroin. That's a lot. He said that's when the trouble started. D'Antonio said the beef between McNeese and Gary was over a huge diamond ring. This is intriguing. He said a gorgeous diamond wedding ring.

This thing was magnificent, and Gary pitched it as a quarter of a million dollar ring. He said it was his wife's. He said he got it back from Pam or whatever. So the doctor said that Triano needed cash, so he offered up his wife's $250,000 wedding ring to McNeese as collateral for a loan. Okay. Which, like, he pawned it to a rich guy, basically. Right, right. But the problem was the diamond turned out to be fake.

But the problem was the diamond turned out to be fake. So not only did Gary scam this guy, Gary also scammed his fucking wife by giving her a fake fucking diamond. He gave her a fake ring. He gave her a fakey. And they're showing saying how fucking rich and wonderful they are. He sent that woman out on lunch dates with her friends with a fake ring. It must have been a good fake because nobody ever said it. But nobody would ever assume that they're flying in a private jet. Of course it's real.

That's wild shit. Unbelievable. That explains, that's so much, that's just like America in a nutshell. A $250,000, I'm fancy, but it isn't even fucking real that's crazy so I guess they said that when he found out McNeese realized and he went batshit here yeah D'Antonio said Neil went absolutely crazy he started to tell me I'm gonna kill him I'm gonna kill him and he said and when I kill Gary Triano, it will be spectacular. The whole world will know I killed him.

That feels like the guy. That's very specific. Yeah. He said Gary Triano owed him a debt, and I believe that's why Gary Triano was killed. So, yeah. Reedy said he had it all figured out. This is that investigator that said that. That's who was killed. He took 48 hours of TV show to the workshop where he believes the bomb was built.

And he says, this place looks like a movie set. Thousands of parts, heavy machinery. That's what the interviewer said. And Reedy said, he has everything here that could be used to build a bomb, which anything could be used to build a bomb. He said, we found at least six pieces to the puzzle within this drawer right here. We found shotgun shells. We found bearings. The same type of powder that was used in the bomb.

We found the Radio Shack receipts that linked this all together. Okay. Reedy says the man who built the bomb in that shop was a model airplane hobbyist named Jerry Capuano. He said that was the guy because he knows how to do all that stuff. Reedy's theory of the crime is that McNeese put together a whole hit team to go after Gary. He said, yeah, he said this is his bodyguard who orchestrated and got the hit crew together with these two guys, and he had pictures.

He said, and these two guys have a past criminal history. They're complete thugs. So McNeese and his bodyguard had a criminal history they were convicted of extortion for threatening another man who owed mcneese money that sounds about right this is yeah this is mo reedy says that allegedly reedy says that he found a witness who saw the hit team in the parking lot of the country club that day. He said directly next to Gary Triano when the bomb went off, there was an individual in a vehicle sitting there reading a magazine. He was looking at his, they're not saying it was Kudo that did it. He said he was looking in his mirror and he saw an individual backed by the bushes. He also saw another individual straight up ahead on this knoll directly in front of us that we're pulling around to.

He said knoll and bushes. You've got a grassy knoll? Did he say back into the left? We're fucking we're fucked here. He just described the smoke coming up from the bushes and a fucking grassy knoll. He just described. That's who did it. Unbelievable.

And they said he said, I believe those two people were involved in the bombing. So that's what they think. Police, though, don't think it's this guy at all. No? No. They didn't believe the diamond ring story. They didn't believe the bomb factory thing with that thing. They didn't believe anything about a hit team.

They didn't really believe anything about the mob hits. They just didn't see it, the mob thing. They didn't believe anything about a hit team. They didn't really believe anything about the mob hits. They just didn't see it, the mob thing. They said another one, the Mexican group, the financial group, all discounted by police, just bad business deals that happen all the time to these people. Because when they go talk to them and they realize, oh, you've been fucked over by like 12 people like that in the last five years and they're all alive.

And they're all doing great. Yeah, probably not you, I guess. That's just business so um they said quote we talked that we talked uh went and talked with the casinos and they said yeah we lose money all the time we don't go out and kill people for the money that they owe us it's not really plus if you kill someone they can't pay you back there's that's a that's a big problem uh yeah yeah there's there's an interview with this loan shark guy or he was a hit was a hitman he killed like 40 people back in loan shark guy. He was a hit man. He killed like 40 people back in the day.

And he was a mob guy who wore a hood on his interview because he wrote a book under just like a mob guy name basically. He's a bad guy. Real bad guy. Killed tons of people. Ran loan sharking and did all that. And they said, well, when do you kill people that owe you money? He goes, never. How the fuck are they going to pay me if they're dead?

Right. He goes, I'll let them go forever. I'll break their fucking leg. I'll bash their arm. They'll be fighting a fucking wheelchair by the end of it, but they're going to get my fucking money eventually. Like, no matter what it takes, they're getting it. If they have to hock their wheelchair, I'll get that money.

Like, I don't care. So that's not how it works. Casinos are the same way. They want their cash. So another friend is this, that rich Moray guy, I think we talked about, or Moret. He's an advertising guy in Tucson. He says, somebody's making a hell of a statement to blow up a car. It's like Don Bowles.

That's what everyone's saying. Don Bowles was an Arizona Republic reporter. Do you remember hearing about this? I do remember that. It's a big news. He was killed by a Phoenix car bomb in 1976 in Biltmoreiltmore right in there in the biltmore there in phoenix that's right in phoenix yeah he said that uh i don't know if gary was ever worried he says not the kind of worried uh that not the kind of worry that he was worried about his life no he's just worried about being broke okay yeah he said they had plans to play tennis and all that kind of shit you know and

then he heard that he was dead he said gary was larger than life he had at one time the best of everything homes automobiles a helicopter a jet a chauffeur the finest wines and couldn't afford any of it not any no no i mean he could at times for a year here and six months there, but not all the time. But he can't sustainably support that lifestyle. He can't do it. Nope. He was just doing what he could while he could. This Moret guy said, but Gary had another side, too.

He had creativity, artistic ability. He wrote poems. Give me a fucking break. Do you want to hear poems from this guy? He's a sonnet guy, James. What do you want? He's practically a renaissance man. Holy shit.

He won top awards from the Boy Scouts and was a major donor to the University of Arizona. I didn't know the Boy Scouts awarded him. I mean, that means he's perfect. When he had money, he was very generous. He was on hard times. He was forced into bankruptcy about two and a half years ago, partly because of a very costly divorce and the real estate bust. But Gary had lots of deals, just the same way he gave to a lot of charities

and had a lot of friends. So, yeah. He also talks about, you know, he said that the casino, he was involved in the casino thing, and he said, oh, we would have all made a fortune. He said, we were screwed by our own government. Okay. Who said, I don't think you can...

Yeah, I don't think you can... Gambling overseas, that feels very... In a Chinese casino? Yeah, that feels very dangerous for the nation, for the security. Yeah, that doesn't feel right at all. He said, Gary was always good at putting people together with money.

But, you know, that just didn't work out. The U.S. State Department said that gambling is illegal in China. But all these people said that on this island they would let gambling happen. So that's when they were going to build it. Frightening then. Even more frightening. Yeah, not working out. So friends here, his memorial service came

and a friend of his named michelle said i think it's disgusting the way people are treating him he didn't kill himself i know that for a fact he was too ornery to do that and he wasn't going to kill anyone else either somebody went after him and did that thank you for your obvious thing here he said it's she said it's sad, but nobody knows. Time will tell. It's going to end up being tragic. Like it's not already? The man's dead.

He's exploded in a parking lot. These fucking pieces of his skull are missing, replaced with shrapnel. What's your definition of tragic, lady? That's what I mean. It takes a lot for this lady to call anything tragic boy it's gotta really be tragic uh so the children his children that he had with pam phillips were in aspen with her and beneficiaries of his two million dollar life insurance policy yep phillips was obviously pam was questioned and of course considered a suspect by the sheriffs at

one time and then you know didn't think so um one of the reasons why she was a suspect is because she declined to take a lie detector test oh all of his business people all the chinese casino people all those people said sure give it to me and all they all passed and she said no no no it was on the advice of her lawyer um who objected to her being singled out for a test he said was unreliable and inadmissible in court. So, okay. Now, in November 1st, 1996, Philip sends a missed October payment on his life insurance policy. Following an investigation, the company pays the claim $2.2 million, and she won't take a lie detector test, even though she got $2 million for a dead guy.

You got to at least take the test for that. You know what I mean? In December 1996 here, that's when the insurance claim is filed, and that's when the cops go, Jesus, $2 million. Let's go talk to Pam again. That's a lot of motivation. She's got 2 million reasons. No one else was getting 2 million out of killing him.

So they said the money would go to Pam as a trustee. She's the only person, when you follow the money, that benefited at all. Right. They said there's nothing. Pam, though, said there's nothing about me, nothing about me that would ever harm a person. That repeating means you're lying, by the way. Not all the time, but a lot of the times. It's a good indicator, sure.

Whenever you hear anybody say something and then reset the same thing like there's nothing about me, nothing about me, just say, oh, whatever you're saying is a lie. I didn't say that convincing enough. Nothing about me. just say oh whatever you're saying is a lie i didn't say that convincing enough nothing about listen to a lot of public like if you listen to a lot of politicians it'll be like the thing they're lying about that you know they're fucking lying about that's what they do so pay attention to that in speech it's interesting he said that that would um nothing about me that would ever harm a person ever and she repeated that too twice she did it twice in one sentence there's no money motive there was no insurance motive that's fine so they questioned her she told them that she divorced gary and escaped from tucson and fled to aspen because she was terrified of him

yeah she said there was things that were happening with him they couldn't understand he was off the wall off the wall off the wall off the vans god damn it off the wall twice his vans squared and she said she moved because our lives were threatened i mean our lives were threatened she just says everything twice who is she she's repeat for christ really annoying gary feared everything gary was in total fear going around with a gun. When people are making something up, though, they do this. That's the problem at the same time.

But who knows? That's just my opinion. She said he had life threats. I had life threats. The children had life threats. We're talking about Mexican mafia people you don't cross. There were serious, serious things going on here. Life threats. Does she mean death threats? Okay. Life threats. don't cross there was serious serious things going on here life threats okay life threats

those it's a more positive way to spin on death when people put death threats on you you're gonna live forever hang on yeah hang on hey you're never gonna die have you seen the green mile forever oh my god seriously that is uh very interesting life the opposite life threats get yourself a little mouse you're gonna live with it forever i mean yes i he did threaten to kill me but i like to think of it more as a life threat than a death threat you know just kind of like feels better to think about it like that and you can control like how your brain thinks about things just in terms of words you use you understand i read the secret yeah you know that's what you do you knew where i was going he said um yeah this is a friend of

her uh laura chapman again and we talked about before she said about their marriage when things started to go downward and the money was not going to be there anymore and that rich and famous lifestyle was going to be evaporating, I think she saw the writing on the wall and said, you know, I don't think I want to be in this relationship anymore. The interviewer for 48 hours said Pam tells this story with such conviction that she'd reached a point where she had to leave Gary because of these people he was dealing with the threats to her family. Everyone was scared and she had to move to Aspen to save her children. Is that true? And Chapman said, that's absolutely ridiculous. That is not why she moved to Aspen. They said, well, why did she move? And Chapman said she was looking for her next ATM, her next bank.

She was looking for someone to provide that lifestyle again. Looking for another whale. Yeah. And who the, where is they? Where are they? Aspen. Aspen. Perfect place. So after her divorce, Pam's by the way, Laura Chapman is Pam's friend, not fucking Gary's.

This woman that just said that she says that Laura or Pam was looking for love in Aspen. She said once she got to Colorado, the only thing she was looking for was to make sure she had basically a net worth of at least $10 million or more. Wow. That was the basis of where we could start. Holy. She said it really didn't matter what they looked like just as long as they had a lot of money. Ten million.

And I'll suck it forever. That's I don't give a fuck. Or at least until, you know, I put in enough money to get some equity out of this divorce. Until you're worth nine. Yeah. So she said that she met one guy, though. She would hang out with all these rich and famous people. But she met one guy who her friend said didn't quite fit the mold here,

and that was Ron Young. His name was Ronald Young. Does that name sound familiar? Hey. Hey. Hello, Yorba Linda. You're on the air. Yeah.

Hey, where's your car, Ron? Why are you leaving shotguns and shit in it? Why would he leave someone? All right. They said they asked Pam, how'd you meet Ron? And she said, I met him at a party next door, the duplex next to me. Very tall. The guy's like a skyscraper.

He was a business manager to people that were at this barbecue, and I could use some help with my business. And so that's kind of what ended up happening. Yeah. He helped their business with his penis, which is how you help businesses for the most part six foot tall man yeah you know how it goes philip said young helped her with her business interest and she paid him in cash you know to not leave a big trail or anything we're on the up and up wow oh my god pam owned listen to the business she was doing how asinine this was this is a 1995 okay so beginning of the internet she owned an online company so she was starting with the dot-com shit right away

called starbabies.com what is that it made astrology charts for infants so your baby would be born you send the information and they make you an astrology chart and send it of what it looked like the day your baby was born yeah well here's your baby's life mapped out based on oh she would show that it's your charts you do this whole chart thing it's the bullshit it's a moon yeah it's a moon baby and we do this online and we'll make millions oh my god genius yep it is she said i hand wrote all the different planetary aspects to understand We do this online and we'll make millions. Oh, my God. Genius. It is. She said, I hand wrote all the different planetary aspects to understand our children and to be a better parent. That's what she's doing to try to be a better parent.

How dare you? Drawing planetary aspects. So they asked Pam, what was your relationship with Ron? And she said, strictly business, pretty much. What is pretty much? she said strictly business pretty much uh-huh what is pretty much yeah is it strictly business or not except for that part where i tasted his dick that's all i mean you know yeah he's a pre-comer and i'll just say that but that's all you know it was a lot strictly business pretty much pretty much pretty much negates anything you just said strictly business pretty much

oj simpson did you kill your wife nicole no pretty much really absolutely not more or less more or less give or take roundabout no positively no way give or take him a bit what the fuck how do you say strictly pretty much pretty much strictly business pretty much doing business doing business plans she just needs to say the word business because that's the opposite of sex right the opposite of fucking is you know we have clothes on and he's wearing a tie if we look if we say business and there are a lot of people around and we're drinking coffee yeah you know how it goes she said he helped on pretty much everything you know he helped a lot all qualifiers designed my entire business model yes all of it so 48 hours said now you're here to tell me the truth right in other words

the guy said that was the worst answer i've ever fucking heard in my life is what the interviewer said do you want to try again and she said i'm here to tell you the truth she just repeated what he said they said did your business relationship with ron turn into a romantic relationship? Bingo. Do you know her answer? You're going to guess it, I bet. No, kind of. No, not really. I swear I thought that's what you were going to say, too. I thought you were going to say, kind of is the same thing.

It's the same thing. No, not really. That's amazing. Then they said, because it was alleged that you were lovers were you lovers and she said no no we were not lovers so there's i did not love him it was fucking for fun just fucking oh wait lovers means fucking pretty much give or take a little fucking in my estimation approximately in the ballpark of a fucking i would say the fuck it's happening then she said this oh my god this is like embarrassing what are you 12 and your aunt just asked you if you have a boyfriend yeah you got any boyfriends at school oh and this is so

embarrassing like oh my god this is like embarrassing she said laughing she said could we have crashed out having having wine fully clothed on a couch or bed that may have happened once or twice we were not lovers no but you qualified it did we fall asleep drunk a couple times i mean our clothes were on sort of like when we fell asleep, they were on. When we woke up, they were off. Unbelievable. Then in the summer of 96, she was mad at Ron, accused him of fraud, accused him of using her credit cards, and then she called the cops on him. Okay. In 96, in the summer.

So he disappeared. He ran away because she called the cops on him. Yeah. So several months later, this is November 96, is when Gary is blown up in his car. Yeah. Okay. Now, that's interesting. Now, a cop who dealt with Phillips in the fraud case that took her call about this,

he says, hey, I have a suspect in a fraud case up in Aspen. His name is Ron Young, and he calls the detective in Tucson to tell him that. Hey, you might want to look into this because there's a guy that seems like a shady guy, blah, blah, blah. So now at first, by the way, the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Bureau here, they put out false information about the bomb on purpose. Oh, genius, yeah. So they could get people who someone was admitting or say they knew something weed out the the bullshit yeah yeah they said it was a black powder bomb but it wasn't actually um so um by the way a private investigator here or not a private investigative reporter uncovered 74 lawsuits involving triano either

for or against him him filing or him suing how many lawsuits do you have going on right now uh zero zero pretty much more or less in my estimation in my estimation approximately zero exactly 74 is high by the way everybody yeah yeah it seems to be if you said yourself that sounds about right you got fucking problems a lot of problems and probably way more money than me and jimmy get your life in order yeah holy shit so they said that um when the materials of the bomb were identified the battery and other material including the blue canvas bag they had a press conference to show stuff to go, Hey,

look at this to see if anybody would say anything. They wouldn't say whether the bomb was detonated by a remote device or set. Okay. So they said, was there anything special in the bag to entice him? And one of the cops said, don't read too much into it. It was around his birthday.

He never locked his car. He thought this was part of the birthday. the guys left me a surprise because he was with the foursome of guys so uh 1997 august of 1997 comes they still got nothing holy shit so the year a year over almost a year there's a joint task force with the police, the sheriffs, the ATF, the FBI. They're all working together. In August of 1997, it disbands. The joint task force disbands. They got no more leads to go on.

They can't have. You got a car on your Belinda. That's it. One of the cops said, I'm sad that. Oh, no, this is Phillips. This is the wife said, quote, I'm sad that they were unable to find whoever did this. The tragedy lives on. She told the Arizona Daily Star that.

Now, five years later, five years go by. Sergeant Michael O'Connor, he's working on this, and he is the head of homicide here for the Sheriff's Department. And he said as time goes on it can actually help investigators which is not true at all no it's not i mean it can help in terms of like somebody having a conscious and just fucking admitting it but it does not help in terms of the evidence chasing down evidence and being like now i've got it witnesses die for every witness that has a change of heart over five years there's a million pieces of evidence that deteriorate and witnesses that

die or change your mind or move to canada or yeah who the fuck knows so he said the longer the case goes on the more information trickles out people who had alliances no longer do things happen divorces or splits in business some may have fallen out of grace time is a way of working for us in my experience those things are true yeah but then for all of those you lose a lot of other shit a lot yeah for every for every suspect that lost an alliance and now will tell on their friend there's another suspect who doesn't remember or died right or just forgot you know what i mean so So he said that Pam remains what O'Connor called a loose end, the ex-wife. He said she's not completely excluded as a suspect is what he said.

But, you know, who knows. He said what makes it even more weird is Ron Young disappearing. He said that Ron Young's been described by authorities in Colorado as a bad guy. He's also been described as Pam's boyfriend, who she had some dealings with. He was wanted on weapons and fraud charges in Aspen and slipped out around the time of the murder and hasn't

been seen since, because he was in California with his car. So the investigator for the district attorney's office says that Young is believed to be in the Bahamas at this point. Really? Really. Huh.

Interesting. Now, there's a guy named J. Kenneth Orms, O-R-M-S, like arms with an O. Triano's business and personal relationships come to light around the New Frontier Investments. That's that company. the New Frontier Investments, that's that company, they talk about John Kenneth Orms, who is the founder of Platinum Luxury Real Estate and Platinum Mortgage Services. He's the guy who owns the company

where he met his baby mama there. So he also, they said, Orms is also known as being flamboyant in his services. He would sell his services on TV and a radio program on KTKT. So it sounds like if you're from Tucson and you lived there 20 years ago, you've probably seen this guy hocking his wares.

I think KTKT is fucking AM radio. Sounds like it, yeah. It was probably like a wannabe Dave Ramsey or some shit. So he said that he uh what he talks about how he knows alan greenspan who's the head fed chairman at the time and he uh boasts fast mortgages made faster by drive-by appraisals and papers that your spouse can just sign later some fucking rocket mortgage we don't actually do a real legitimate deal here is what he said it's a straight bullshit but you'll get cash yeah yeah at the time this is going on

in 2000 ish orms is hooked up with robin gardner oh his ex-girl yeah yeah who he had a baby with there gary had a baby with on may, 2000, two days before he turns 56, Orms sues Gardner in court, alleging that she owed him money on a loan for her 1994 white convertible Mustang that she had to return. Also, return a diamond engagement

ring that he claimed was worth $10,000 because the engagement had broken off. Okay. Rich people sue when their relationships end which is bonkers when you're poor you just leave no one cares you don't owe anybody shit keep that stupid ring so they said that gardner uh there was different uh court papers have a lot of facts about their relationship orms cited was cited for disturbing her at her home two months after their engagement. She said that Orms threatened her and hit her in the face.

So, yeah. And she also said there's more where this came from. Oh, that's right. Orms went to her house, gave her $500 in cash, and said there's more where this came from if you would agree to have dinner with me at my house. Holy. Trying to buy her. Gardner then sued him, I believe, and won $919,000 after showing she was improperly denied commissions and pay and was the victim of breach of contract, assault, slander, and infliction of emotional distress.

A million dollars worth. Good for her. Yeah, she was working. So also the sergeant called her extremely cooperative in the murder investigation and said she was pretty much cleared here. So they do a bomb reenactment in the remote mountains of New Mexico. Sick. They said this is the exact location where the device was and it was detonated.

They have it in the front seat of an 89 Lincoln Town car. They said that when he entered the car, he leaned over. This unknown bag was sitting there exactly where it's at now. And like anybody, probably reached over and grabbed it, right? They said so. They looked at it. It's the exact same weight car, the exact same explosives. They have a dummy.

They detonated the bomb. And they said, this is all the evidence. From here we have to sort out what is car parts and what is bomb parts. Because now they can know, okay, it's the exact same thing. He was asked, would this explosion have been survivable? And they said, no, not at all.

You're fucking dead. He said it was quick and calculated and murder. Very quick. They said that there are more people they asked the interviewer said there are people who look at the circumstance and they say this looks like a classic mob hit and um the guy said you're right with the bombing everybody looked at this and said signature mob hit but he didn't think so it's a 17 inch pipe bomb bomb filled with one pound of smokeless gunpowder. Oh.

It's a lot. A pound's a lot. Yeah. So that's what they find out. That's what they release. That's the bomb. So now they can kind of figure all this other stuff out. Now, 2005 comes around.

Yeah. Ten years. November 2005. Nine years. America's Most Wanted. They air a profile of Young calling him a person of interest in the case, Ronald Young. They do this at the request of the U.S. Bureau of Tobacco, Alcohol, Firearms and Explosives. So based on a tip from a viewer two days later, police inida arrest ronald young on outstanding felony fraud

charges from aspen okay um he is convicted on federal gun violations and spends a year in federal prison but the other charges are dropped now what's pam up to in 2005 well to know she is her friends say i'll just read from this article today friends say that pam phillips is a devoted mother she's active in real estate and republican politics in aspen real estate and politics fucking she loves it that's you can't get two people i want to spend less time with the real estate and fucking politicians yeah the worst the two of them jesus christ um you'll never be in a room where more people are trying to sell you shit so in 2005 the case goes cold they got ronald but that's all they

got they got him for that yeah yeah um then in 2005 bomb expert tony may and agent tony mangan of the atf were reviewing cold cases and took another look at this. Sure. So they said, they asked him, tell me what the bomb tells you about the potential suspect. And they said,

well, it tells me quite a bit actually from the size of the battery to the fact that a remote control system was used. Someone hit a button and blew him up like Scarface style. That's crazy. Sick. He said, this is somebody that was familiar with model boats and model airplanes. Oh.

But they determined that the bomb builder was an amateur. He said, you have sloppy solder points. In this case, the solder points were globbed on. An expert bomb maker wouldn't do that. So we've seen bombs that experts make, and that's not what they do. wouldn't do that. So we've seen bombs that experts make and that's not what they do. He says that the 17-inch pipe bomb was detonated using a remote control firing system that can be purchased at Radio Shack or anywhere else like that. He says, and when he sees Mr. Triano get into the vehicle and get in close proximity to the bomb, he initiates the device and boom.

He initiates the device and boom. So they said sloppy workmanship says that it's not a mob hitman. Mob hitmen that use explosives, that's what they use. That's that guy's specialty. And you go to that guy and he makes a really good fucking bomb. Otherwise, he gawks up behind the guy and shoots him in the fucking head because no one wants to blow themselves up making a fucking bomb. You got to know how to do that so which is what happens so they said as far as the cops were concerned the mob hitman thing was out they just they were that was crossed off the list so they said that uh the tucson detectives said that they're more and more convinced the key to the case would be the

relationship between pam phillips and ron young so then he then when Ron Young got arrested in Florida, they get a search warrant to search his apartment, and they find that Ron loves to keep records. Boy, he loves it. He's a collector. Oh, yeah. They said they learned that during the 90s, Young had received significant cash payments from a woman in Colorado.

Hmm. Weird. Usually between $1,800 and $2,000. cash payments from a woman in colorado hmm weird usually between eighteen hundred and two thousand dollars they said the woman sent hundreds of thousands of dollars and it was pam phillips really oh yeah they said well why did she pay ron young four hundred thousand dollars altogether oh boy and they said we think maybe she was paying him to murder gary triana why else would she do it so um that's fucking insane 400 000 400 000 yeah that buys a good bomb that'll buy somebody to at least give it a shot yeah pam though says my children have to know this has nothing to do with me i had nothing to do with the death of their father absolutely nothing absolutely nothing why are you saying it so much you sound like fucking oj at this point like

if you want to study like language and what you don't say and what you people say when they lie just listen to her because she's a textbook of it a fucking textbook um they said that the interviewer said to her investigator said you had two million reasons and she said like what like you don't know what that means two million dollars pam it's like yeah the interviewer said two million dollars in life insurance money and she said i didn't even know i had that okay you didn't know that you got 2.2 million dollars i don't care how rich you are you you know you knew you got 2.2 million dollars give me a fucking break wow um so they said the cops said no she needed the money and she wanted to get gary out

of her life so she reaches out to ron young and basically if you look at the evidence collected she says if gary dies i get two million you kill him i'll give you 400 grand we think that's how it goes then they find tapes in addition to his extensive financial records they also have hours of telephone conversations god including ones of him talking to pam phillips pam phillips uh here's the audio here's him quote if i ever found out that you compromised me for your benefit that would really be unfortunate for you because there's just plenty of stuff that i could literally dig out of the ground and you're a fried duck he's got shit buried on her too yeah he's got evidence is what he saved some shit yeah so then they discover this ron young and in one of the

tapes he says well i'll tell you you're going to be very serious when you sit in a woman's prison for murder he said that to pam and the cop said i only know of one murder that pam phillips is associated with and that's gary triano so pretty sure that's what we're talking about here uh also at one point young was recorded telling her i helped you out on something and that was beyond anybody out what anyone else in the world would do especially somebody you can trust and i think that deserves some consideration since you're living off the benefits of it you know and so you got the insurance money i want more money yep so that's a lot um in another call he said that uh you know about the women's prison and all this, the sheriff described Young as part businessman, part con man, and they described Phillips as all gold digger. He's half this, half that.

She's all gold digger. It feels like they agreed on a certain price, and he kept going back for more money when he was broke. Yeah, he wanted more money. Yeah. That's what I think it was. So they found his rented van they put that together in california they did at the time that was nothing now they find record of that and they're like holy shit he had all their papers and shit that's a lot um they

also they this i'll give you the cops quote they find basically a map of tucson as far as we know ron young has no relationship to Tucson. Yeah. There were several notes, one that lists out people that are very close to Gary Triano. We find a receipt for a hotel, a local hotel. We find where he stayed there for 18 days under the name Philip Desmond in Tucson. Then we find some of the divorce paperwork from Pam and Gary's divorce. They're like, this is 18 days. This is a lot here, yeah. They also go to search Pam Phillips' home in 2006

and they publicly name her as a suspect. In 2007, in November, this is how long this is going on, no one's been arrested yet. 20 years almost. Oh, 10 at this point, 11 years. Triano's children from his first marriage, Heather and Brian I think it was, file a wrongful death civil case against Phillips and Young. Oh, shit.

Yep. September 2008, Pam leaves the U.S. for London and then Milan, Italy. Why? She leaves the country. Why? Yep, her attorneys tell sheriff's investigators she went to live near her daughter who's going to school in Switzerland. Okay. You're not even in the same country.

That is fucking wild. Yeah. I'm telling you what. So Young is arrested here. By the way, there was a psychic who told Gary's mother in 1996 that the people who were responsible for blowing up the car would be caught the psychic said one suspect would be found in florida by the way that is where he was arrested that's where he was arrested for the fraud where they found all the shit which by the way a murderer he's gonna leave and hide out a pretty good guess is florida you're 50 you're 50 50 on

florida right off the bat right you don't have to be psychic she swung hard on the easiest state he's white trash and he'll be on the run wonder where he'll go i don't know try fucking the tampa area if it's not if it's not florida it's alaska but she one of the two it's still it's still super fucking upsetting when one of those gets it right that's so weird i don't like it i'll give him credit fuck it but yeah it's it's weird i'm saying good guess but it makes me uncomfortable a little bit right so they said young was using aliases and living solely on the cash that ph provided him, the sergeant said he was off the grid. He's doing everything wrong. Yep.

They said they'd been watching him for the last week and conducting surveillance on Phillips' house for the same amount of time, even though they didn't know she was in Europe there. So they ended up getting him, like we said, and now they're like, okay, what's up with her? But she's in Europe is the problem. So she has an attorney and said that they were working with law enforcement

officers to bring Phillips into the case whenever necessary to defend her. Her lawyer said, hey, look, I'm ready to talk to you. No problem here. So they said it came as a bit of a surprise to learn that Ms. Phillips was being charged through the newspaper this morning, her lawyer said. That's how he found out rather than tell her. They said that she will plead not guilty if arrested

and mount a vigorous defense to this whole thing. Ridiculous. By the way, the ATF ended up linking Ronald Young to the purchase of gunpowder in the pipe bomb and they also determined the electronics used for the remote control were purchased by him at Radio Shack.

Of course they were. Nowhere else to get it at that point. They said the FBI was crucial in analyzing money transfers, the forensic accounting they had. That was big. So she made periodic payments of between $1,500 and $2,000 to him between january 1997 and may 2004 jesus christ yep the sheriff on layaway that's a lot of murder that is that's a lot of payments she's keeping up it's like a car what do you want to do like a 30-year mortgage or what yeah that's a full mortgage man

that's wild for fucking eight years that's incredible um the sheriff who's a seven term sheriff said i've never been involved in a case as complex and as difficult as this particular case tell me about it putting it together yeah allison and myself both of us i think our heads almost exploded from getting all these people and all this shit we almost are that's a bad analogy exploded never mind sorry that was. That was bad. And I apologize. And I didn't mean to say that. But it's fucking true. So anyway.

Yeah. They look into all this type of shit. They're looking into everything. They said all of the different business connections and Vegas casinos and all the money he owed just bogged down the whole investigation. Because he had to do everything. to sure you had to do everything november 2009 the children from the first marriage win the wrongful death case against phillips and young and the judge awards them 10 million dollars oh boy and they'll never get it never get that phillips on december 3rd 2009 she's arrested in vienna austria really yep uh that's pretty fucking wild. They said that local detectives knew that authorities in Liechtenstein notified other European countries that Phillips was suspected in a money laundering case and they wanted to question her in Liechtenstein.

knew where and who knew her and knew she where she was went to her location took her into custody and then after they detained her they discovered oh she's also wanted in a murder in the united states she's kind of a bad person yeah so they ended up uh confirming all that and shipping her ass back to the states here a friend here's laura chapman again she says it all then once she got arrested quote it all came flooding back to me i I was like, oh, my gosh, she really did do it. Yeah. They said that now she remembered that something that she's been too scared to tell the police. She said, I was scared. She said back in 1993, right after they separated Pam and Gary, she said that Gary was acting crazy one night, threatening her and waving a gun around.

That's what Phillips told Laura. She said, quote, she called me and she called another woman to come over to her home. And she said, you know, I should just hire someone and have him taken out, you know, and then I can collect the insurance policy. Oh, my God. That was three years before it happened. She said it out loud. Yeah. So for the cops, they were like, well, we don't like that at all yeah that's not a bad words to say so yeah she's finally extradited to the united states in 2010 okay that is 14 years later his trial goes

on first ronald young his defense team argues he had nothing to do with the murders but that he learned details from phillips and used that knowledge to extort her so she made the bomb yeah the fuck out of here and she just said the things yeah her pageant experience made her a good bomb maker and the jury doesn't buy it either it took the jury 12 hours over two days to convict him conspiracy to commit first degree murder and first degree murder oh both the bad ones yep he is facing life or life without the possibility of parole on each count when he's sentenced here um he hung his head when they announced the verdicts and um his attorney said you know we're disappointed but what the fuck do we expect

yeah what do you want here so uh he is sentenced to, you, sir, may fuck off life in prison. Stay in there forever. Stay in there forever. Okay. Now, Phillips here. Get her back. October 2010, Pam Phillips, they finally got her back. Her defense team seeks mental health evaluations for her.

They say she's fucking crazy. She needs, she can't stand trial. March 2011, doctors perform preliminary mental health examinations. They determine she is malingering and exaggerating her symptoms. Of course. She's deemed perfectly competent to stand trial. September 2011, though, a few months later, a PEMA judge reverses his decision and agrees to have her undergo a full mental health check and delay the whole thing.

Her lawyers say she is unfit. So they ask her later on. She's asked on 48 hours. Pam, is it true that you once believed that you had some sort of computer chip or brain implants put in that was controlling your thoughts and actions yeah you remember that can you tell me that with a straight face that you believe that say it and she said this again yes is the answer to it yes she says i'll just put it this way okay you're lying i'll just put it this way i was a a mess. I was a mess. I was a mess. Not answering the question and repeating yourself.

Like she couldn't be more of a fucking liar. It sucks. It was a mess. Yeah, I was a mess. So they said, and today, do you believe there's any implants in your brain? This is what she says.

Now, I believe our technology is amazing what it can do, but I think I hope to not have any implants in my brain. Oh my God. Full of shit. Our technology is amazing. That's not yes or no. Just answer, you're the most frustrating asshole.

Jesus, you're an asshole. December 2011, she is declared incompetent to stand trial. But doctors say she can be restored to competency. Sure. By October of 2012, she's finally competent. Thank God. 2014, her trial comes. What?

Fucking 18 years almost, 17 and a half years later after the murder. This is insanity. and a half years later after the murder this is insanity so yeah uh her attorneys are trying to convince the jurors that ronald young didn't kill him either because if if young did it then she's involved because otherwise they have no he has no reason yeah so her attorneys not only have to say that she's innocent they also have to relitigate the ron case. Yeah. That's not good. She's in a bad spot. He had it better than she does, I think, at this point. And the prosecutors are saying that they should not be allowed to argue that the mob did it because there's no evidence for that. So they shouldn't be allowed to put it out there.

So the deputy Pima County attorney here, William McCollum, asked the judge to prohibit the defense from saying that he was killed by any form of organized crime. They want any references to mafia, Mexican mafia, Cosa Nostra, and Las Vegas crime syndicates banned from the proceedings, which is fucking hilarious. And the defense attorney said the death has all the markings of a mob hit. I don't know what you want from me. has all the markings of a mob hit. I don't know what you want from me.

Then they said defense investigators discovered Triano made 23 phone calls to phone numbers that had multiple FBI investigation case numbers assigned to them, which also they're business people who are always defrauding people all the time that he's involved with, so that could be it too. They said, yeah, one of the telephone numbers was associated with a soldier in the Lucchese organized crime family. Another was made to a man suspected of being an enforcer in the Lucchese crime family.

They might have also been his cousins. We are fucking guineas. Not to be a jerk, but that's also possible that he might just know a guy because we know each other. Because that doesn't mean, you know, you don't know people. The mob has families. That's literally what they are. Yeah.

It's a family. Yeah. It's, that's what I mean. So they said other business associates had ties, ties, which could be anything to the Colombo and Bonanno families as well. Several of Triano's business associates,

they said had motive to kill him and give me a fucking break here. They said, Gary Triano was business associates, they said, had motive to kill him. And give me a fucking break here. They said Gary Triano was investigated for money laundering, skimming, and filed bankruptcy to discharge millions in lawful debt. Under the circumstances of numerous organized crime connections, it is reasonable to infer that Gary Triano had debts beyond the lawful debts discharged in bankruptcy. Gary Triano was also threatening the interests of organized crime people. No evidence of that. So trial opening here. The prosecutors describe her as a gold digger who hired a former dirtbag boyfriend to kill her ex-husband for $2 million in life insurance policy so she could maintain her lavish lifestyle. Pretty straightforward.

He said Gary Triano lived on the edge, the financial edge. This is the defense. He borrowed a lot of money from all sorts of people, many people who maybe were connected with organized crime. That's who we think did this. That's who killed Gary Triano, not Pamela Phillips. Yeah. So they said the reason the prosecutor said there's one reason that Gary Triano was murdered. One reason he was murdered because his death benefited Pamela Phillips in a big way.

$2 million is a hell of a motive. So, yeah, that's what they think. They say that they were talking about the life insurance policy for years because she talked to her friend about it three years earlier. earlier and um they said that the uh the reason he comes to tucson meaning ron young was that he and pamela young had already agreed to kill gary triano and then they say also they show all the four hundred thousand dollar transactions they show a replica of the pipe bomb in court that's you want to hold it they tell the jurors that's that's powerful shit man powerful shit, man. Powerful shit. They get experts from the ATF. One ATF agent, Bradley Cooper is his name. No shit.

Agent Bradley Cooper. At the time of his bombing, he was assigned to high-profile cases. Of course. He's a high-profile guy. Listen, he's handsome as fuck. Listen, he has a sex symbol that, including Columbine, this guy was assigned to, he says that the case was on the back burner. However, he told prosecutors the seven-year delay in writing

the report did not hinder the analysis. Defense also brought up a lack of DNA analysis. They said DNA analysis wasn't even dreamed of at that time when it came to pipe bombs, like to get, you touch DNA off a pipe bomb. They need a blood or hair.

So they said the ATF agents presented the reconstructed replica and said this was the bomb. They said, quote, the bomber would have been in a line of sight extending the antenna if he wanted to get further away, not necessarily having to enter it all the way. Obviously, that draws a lot of attention, a big remote with a fucking antenna. What do you got here? You look around, I don't see a car anywhere. There was no drones back then. You're looking for a plane or something. So the explosive guy said that he had never seen a remote-controlled explosive device

prior to this investigation like this that was used in a murder. So they also took out the life insurance policies. They played the tapes. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. There's one where she says, this is Phillips and young. She says,

there's gotta be another way to do this. There's gotta be another way. And he says, the idea was, she says, this was short term thing. And Young says over and over is until the coast was very, very. And she says it was a short term thing. And he says until the coast was very, very clear that we just keep it extremely cautious, untraceable situation where

we have. Then Philip said, if I have to kill myself and go to my grave and not say a word i'll do that but i'm just so miserable so she also said at one point they she said i am very serious about this and he said well i tell you you're going to be very serious when you sit in a woman's prison prison for murdering uh you're going to be really sad and she said i'm going to be back and forth and he said no you're going to be you're going to be in prison for murder is what he said if you don't give me money basically i think the defense blames neil mcneese oh gotta be neil mcneese that's right gotta be him um they bring out d'antoni and he said, you know, Jesus Christ, what the fuck? He said that McNeese, though, this is D'Antonio, said that McNeese was a saint. Now he's a saint.

He said he was a wonderful guy and I miss him very much when he wasn't on drugs, which completely contradicts what he said before, that he was this terrible, horrible, scary man. He's a saint. He's a saint. He's a saint. He was testimony painted him as an amoral billionaire with access to anything, including military weaponry, dynamite, and the ability to make pipe bombs. Fucking dynamite? Dynamite he's got. Yeah, he said that they were talking about the ring and screaming and yelling and the kill list and all that sort of shit. Day 26 of the trial, Phillips' attorney alleges

investigators botched the Triano murder investigation, dismissing leads because they just focused on Pam. They didn't arrest her for 14, 16 fucking years. Give me a break. Are you kidding me?

They did a pretty good job. They really snapped to judgment quickly. Really quick judgment here. In the closings, prosecutors said she married what she thought was going to be a rich man her life was set now they're divorcing she talks to her friends about

taking him out and all this has to be just eating away at her it's time to hold pamela phillips responsible for her crimes it's time to find her guilty um so the defense attorney though said come on basically come on, basically. Come on. They said, he owes all these people money. This guy's pissed off at him. He said, really? That's their evidence that Ron Young knew anything about building a bomb, a bomb animated and argumentative? They said the state could have said, could have had that if they followed their leads like they should have, and they didn't.

They could have easily been processing this case in 97 or 98. The state went after the easy marks, the woman who got $2 million life insurance policy and the guy that was extorting her. The state did Occam's razor and said, you're fucking, obviously, the one person who would get $2 million, everybody else who he owes $250, all that, death will never pay them.

They will not get paid from fucking him dying. It's been almost 20 years. They didn't jump to conclusions. I assure you that. Asinine. They found tapes of a man who probably did it, who's living off the grid for no reason. Hiding. On money from her.

From her. It's pretty obvious what's happening. For years. For years. Either that or he is the best dick on earth. Why would you do that for somebody? Other than, like I said, the best penis that's ever fucking risen. That's all it has to be.

Because so much where she'll send money for years afterwards, just in memories of the dick. That's a lot. So she is found guilty of conspiracy to commit first-degree murder and first-degree murder. Sentencing comes around. The children from the first marriage, her stepkids, they come in, and Heather's really pissed because Heather stood up for her.

Really? She defended her. Heather said, to think I actually stood up for this woman. She described their close relationship that she continued to have with her years after the murder. And she said that Pam was a guest at her wedding and present when her first child was born. Wow. She said even after the America's Most Wanted episode implicated her and Ronald Young, she said she still defended her.

She said, I vividly remember going to Pam's house to give her a pep talk. It's going to be okay. We know you're innocent. Yeah. Wow. That is fucking wild. Gary's son. This woman blew up your dad.

In a horrible way. At least it was quick. Jesus Christ. But still, they said the son, Brian, said that she's just greedy. He said, Pamela Phillips murdered my father for nothing but the supposed comfort money would give her. His life

was taken as a result of lack of humanity, greed, and malice. The judge says, you ma'am may fuck off life in prison for you too as well. She said as the judge announced it, she said, I'm innocent, may fuck off life in prison for you two as well. She said, as the judge announced it, she said, I'm innocent. I'm innocent.

This is a nightmare. That's what she said, which is probably exactly how she said it, by the way. She repeated that. That's what I mean. It doesn't fucking matter. It's a nightmare. I'm innocent. I'm innocent. N-E-M.

N-E-M. So the defense attorney afterwards said, this is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, to watch my client be sentenced when I know she's innocent.

No, you don't. He asked for 25 years to life, and they said, get the fuck out of here. Life for you. Now, Ronald Young appeals, and the Arizona Appeals Court

rules a new sentence must be imposed. Some fuck up in the technicalities of the sentencing. And he is sentenced to, you, sir, may fuck off 25 years to life. He's in there. Either way. They're both assholes. Now, the book is called Ugly Duckling, by the way.

Written by Royal Phillips. Yeah. It's kind of an ironic thing because she was always pretty. Is it Pam's sister? It's Pam's aunt. They're very close. Oh, got it. They were close to each other.

Hilarious. And she's a writer. She's a former columnist for the Montecito Journal also. They say the book is a saga of a wealthy, eccentric family seen through the close relationship between aunt and niece. family seen through the close relationship between aunt and niece. Documented through diaries, correspondence, and family photographs, a royal unfolds the story

of true crime. It's pretty interesting if you just want a total background on a murder and see what happens. But that, everybody, is Catalina Foothills, Arizona. What a place. Fucking Tucson every time, damn it. Every time with you. Yeah.

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here so there you go check that out patreon.com slash crime and sports plus you get a shout out which will come in just one second follow Follow on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram. Jimmy, hit me with the list of the best goddamn people on the face of the earth that I can't wait to have a whole new year with. Jimmy, hit me with them right now. This week's executive producers are Jordan Bennett, Liz Vasquez, Brian Stone, Amy Peppers, Cameron Kuchwara, Kimmy Wolfe, Kevin Spilker. P.S.

Kevin, thank you so much. I hope your dad recovers. That's what a fucking sweet thing. I would say. Amazing. I appreciate it. Beave Arnell. I think it's Beave.

Beave. I don't know. It might be Beave. Beave. Infini Hill. Infinity Hill. Thank you so much. Thank you.

You guys are awesome. Thank you so much. And Renee at the Massachusetts State Police in the identification section is retiring. Congratulations. Well, congrats to you. 40 goddamn years. Renee Boulier, Boulier, Boudoiré, Boudoiré. Wow.

No. Good job. I'm sure that's exactly how her family pronounces it. Mike, Megan, and Danny, really appreciative of you. Ms. Bergerer. Bergerer. Anyway, thank you guys so much for what you're doing. Other producers this week are Cosmos Moon, Cousin Eddie's Shitter, Janice Hill, Kaylee O'Donnell, Casey Kramer, Bethany Grabaugh, Mike with no last name, Beth McCourt, Andrew Royfay, Mama Jo, Devin Austin, Mallory Konovsky, El Mini, Jasmine Lee, Jessica Gnarly, Allison with no last name, Gribbles with no last name, Alicia Fury, Salvador Sanchez, Amanda Little, Frances, Frances. Yes, of course it's Frances. Frances.

Hey, Kufi. Cuff. Randolph Wright. Frances. Megan Nicole, 85. Michelle Taylor, Brandi Slipher. Mitchell? Mitchell Klenbaum.

Rasslin Rehash. Jackie Collier. Caleb Aker. Jenny with no last name. Trisha Syravage. Syravage? What is Syravage? Side of your vag? Side of your vag.

Side of your vag. Oh, boy. How do you have vag in your last name? And expect us not to mention. All right, Jenny Mack, Jacob O'Reilly, Jessica Sharp, Lisa Maglio, Cheyenne Mitchell-Brown, Stephanie Dresser, Danielle Kent, Amanda Jay, Chrissy Allen Doyle, Emily Z, Becky with no last name, Cushy DuPont, Amber McCullough, Danny Faulkner, Jordan Martinez, Lindsay Kay, Rachel Pellevitz. For the Pellevitz. Virginia Blackman. Oh, Blackman. Black Mon.

That's an O. Black Mon. Salvador Mendez. Sienna Benz. Scott Brown. Laura Brown. Jennifer Mastin. Megan Costello.

Finn Guame. Gumi? Gurney. Gummy? Gurney. Gurmy. Gummy? Oh, boy.

All right. Dave Ashton. Jennifer Hanford. Jen with no last name. Sean with no last name. Rachel with no last name. Brayden with no last name. Kim Rowland.

Julie Maté. Matt, maybe? Seth O'Neill. Megan Mark. Jenny Ensminger. Ensminger. Ensminger. Benji Charleston. Esther Vr... Vr... Vr... Vr... Vr... Vr... Vr... Vr...on, Jessica Trowell, Scars Rodriguez, Ashley Siders, Ken Choma, Barbie with no last name, Carol Piercaz, Tricia Brubaker, Stephanie Goodale, Josh Bogus, Gil with no last name, Robin Cox, Robert Lee French Jr., Queen Katie, Terry K. Batty, no last name, Tina Armstrong,

Anon, your biggest fan? Anon, your biggest fan. I don't know. A-N-A-N. That might be Anon, right? Amber Riley, Gwen Deaton, Alonzo Hernandez, Carl Schell, K-Marg, Amanda Thornton, Wendy McClain, Travis Durand, Cherie S., Andrew Childs, Eleni Giparakis, Jared Fontenot, Lisa Sciami, Paul Ellis, Rob W., Nick Miller, Kelly with no last name, Travis White, and every one of our patrons. You guys are terrific. Thank you so much.

Thank you, everybody, you wonderful, magnificent bastards. We love you, and we cannot thank you enough for all that you've done for us. Thank you for everything, honestly, from the bottom of our hearts. And keep coming back and hanging out with us week after week. You want to follow us, shutupandgivem and give me murder.com links to all that shit and until next week everybody it's been our pleasure Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Small Town Murder early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts.

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