Small Town Murder - #486 - Date Night Death - Long Branch, New Jersey

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

This week, in, Long Branch, New Jersey, a respected woman is murdered, in the street, as people from a nearby restaurant hear her screams, all while her cop husband rushes to the scene. Was it just a robbery? Or was it an intricate plot, with many dismissed alternate murder plans, that ended up in this awful & vicious killing? In the end, we get a recorded call, between the killers, explaining the whole sordid tale!Along the way, we find out that we don't need clowns at the beach, that if you're a 43 year old married man, it's going to be trouble to date a 20 year old woman, and that if you actually do the stabbing, you definitely have to go to prison!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express. Yay, and choo-choo. Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co-host. I am Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today.

We have an awesome show for you all aboard the murder train pulling away from the station. Get your tickets ready. So keep them out. Keep your tickets out I got a hole punch the holes and you know how it goes here we're wearing we got our engineer caps on today everybody so we have a great show for you wild stuff and before we get to that quickly shut up and give me murder.com is where you get everything your tickets to live shows mostly first First of all, regular live shows, May 31st, Durham, you are up next, North Carolina,

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It's available for two weeks after the 20th. Get it right now, just like a regular live show, except right in your house or wherever you want to be, I don't know, your car, your roof. I don't care where, that's nice. Lay in like a field of wildflowers. What a great idea. Oh, that's terrific. Do you have a projector?

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Immediately, bonus stuff, and then new ones every other week, one crime and sports, one small-time murder. You get it all. You get it all, guys, all of it. So get in there right now. This week, which you're gonna get for crime and sports, we're gonna talk about the whole Otani gambling disaster

in baseball, and then other gambling incidents that they get brushed under the rug. Pete Rose is the only one where they were like, shine a spotlight on it. Everything else has been seriously pushed under the rug. Pete Rose is the only one where they were like, shine a spotlight on it. Everything else has been seriously pushed under the rug and lots of ones we'll talk about. For Small Town Murder, we're gonna talk about something very fun.

Was Charles Manson a CIA asset? Was he? Yeah, was the whole thing a big conspiracy to take down the whole hippie movement and the anti-war thing and all that? We'll talk all about it So some guy ruined his whole career and spent 20 years writing a book on this crazy shit He hates that people are nice Wow

Talk all about it and other CIA related conspiracy holes will go down there So that said I think it's time by the way patreon.com Crime in sports get that right now that's that I think it's time everybody let's do this I think it's time to clear the lungs here we go arms to the sky let's all shout let's do this let's go on a trip run jelly all right we are going to New Jersey hey not too far away here. Probably about a two hour drive from where we are right now. We're going to Long Branch, New Jersey.

Long Branch. Long Branch, which if it sounds familiar, it's because you heard it on The Sopranos and we'll talk about that. Oh, yeah. That's probably why. I was like, uh-oh. Did you do enough research, James?

Find out that we already did this? No, no. No, no. This is, that happened once before. This is in central New Jersey on the East Coast. New Jersey over there. It's a beach, kind of a touristy beach spot here. About an hour and 15 to New York City.

About 40 minutes to Tom's River Township, our last Jersey episode, episode 437, Sex, Greed and Vice Principals. So yes, population here, 31,734. So a good sized town. I mean, it's right on the water, so it's nice. Median income here, median household income is about 65,000 bucks.

Which it's close to the normal of the rest of the country, but the median home price, holy shit. I can't imagine. $641,700. It's the water. How do you do it? You're on the beach. I think't imagine. $641,700. It's the water. How do you do it? You're on the beach. I think those people live in apartments

that make the average, and then people who live other places own homes here that are very expensive. They don't live here. Yeah. Motto of this town, they have two. One is the first seaside resort. First one.

First one, which on the East Coast it kinda was. Like as far as a resort. They kind of invented that type of thing thing and they also call it the friendly city Which I've been I've spent a lot of time in Jersey and I wouldn't call much of it friendly That's not the that's not the even when someone's being friendly like hey Asshole you need help or what they're willing to help you but they're gonna call you an asshole and be aggressive about it Hey jerk off you want me to help you change that why do you ask expertise? You know what or what? They're willing to help you, but they're going to call you an asshole if you're aggressive about it. Hey, jerk off.

You want me to help you change that? Why don't you ask? I don't have a lot of expertise. You know what I mean? I don't know. I'm in Jersey. That's why I didn't ask. Go fuck yourself.

I'll help you. Hey, cocksucker. You need a jump or what? I'll help you. It's very weird. So it was a, emerged as a beach resort town in the like late 1700s. So yeah, people started going there. Like early presidents went there and it was like, it was the late 1700s. So yeah, people started going there. Early presidents went there.

It was like it was the spot to go. 1700s sandals. That's how it was, pretty much. In the 19th century, 1800s, theatrical performers would have their things, because people would gather there, just like in any of these boom towns. They realized, we'll go to where the people are. That's right, where people will show up.

So Long Branch in the 20th century wasn't really a theater hotspot anymore. It became more of a, you know, kind of a family vacation type of joint and, you know, take your kids to watch theater generally, especially in Jersey. You know, that seems like a nightmare. Yeah. And then the Garden State Parkway opened up and then people could get south easier, so then there was less demand for Long Branch here. Now on The Sopranos, Long Branch is where Adriana's nightclub is, the crazy horse that Chris buys her and they kill somebody in there, that kind of thing. Yes, that is exactly, that's what was in Long Branch.

Remember they show up, she's blindfolded, and she says, I smell the ocean. And then she gets inside and says, I smell piss. Which, New Jersey is a good mix of piss and ocean. It's very nice. I smell fish and piss. And then the other, the house Tony hangs out in when he's hiding out toward the end of the series,

was in Long Branch also. So Long Branch gets a lot of play there. Reviews of this town, quickly here. Five stars, Jesus Christ, this person is wordy. We'll go through this. Five stars, Long Branch has been booming after Hurricane Sandy and is a beachy, touristy city. Though the traffic gets a little much

during the summertime, as you can imagine, it is what you expect when the weather is nice and everyone wants to go to the beach. Okay, there, good. Someone's logical. They go, yeah, I'm in a place where people want to be. What do you want? The Pier Village is a family-friendly setting where you can both go to the beach for a day

but get something to eat for dinner before you hit the road. There's plenty of parking, but you'll need to pay upwards of $10 to park for the day. That's incredibly affordable. For a whole day? That sounds great. Wow. New York City, that would cost you $75. Oh my God.

That's a wow. Anywhere in New England is super expensive. $50 for a day? For a whole day. I'm shocked they let you park the day. That's $10. It's usually four hours. Get the fuck out of here.

And she's complaining. Wow, he's complaining. Incredible. Three stars, long branches is as close as it is to areas like Red Bank and Asbury Park, okay? As close as it is to areas like Red Bank and Asbury Park. Drugs, guns, and a lot of Hispanic people. Oh my god, that feels racist.

It is, it's not feels racist. Is that why that feels racist? I don't like drugs, I don't like people with guns, and I don't like a lot of Hispanic people. Yeah, I think they were naming three bad things in their mind. The beach is a wonderful summer spot. The winter's kind of dead. Gee, winter at the beach?

Yeah. Surprised. Surprised. People don't want to go sit by the ocean where it's windy and cold. I would love to see cleaner streets and the ocean. I have taken it upon myself to clean up the ocean area. Is that right? This person's going to clean the ocean.

Just dragging the bottom. Wow, that's pretty impressive. One guy is going to clean the ocean and recruit who I can. He's a crazy person going through the streets going, help me clean the ocean. And they're like, dirty. That's the clean, help me clean the ocean guy. He's like a local, you know, he gets transient. Yeah, yeah.

They'll come. I know five bucks. All right, man, sure. Yeah, all right. I've been in bad spots in my life, but I'm happy here with my family, but needs more life. Okay. Three stars, it's a silly little city that has a nice beach and good schools. It's silly.

Silly little city. Tickle your nipples. It's nice, yeah, tickle your fucking funny bone here. The streets are clean and the parks are just great for young children. Uh-huh. Yeah parks good for kids weird There's a local pool alongside the beaches just in case you don't much like the beach Okay, go in the pool and sort of a big giant pool. That's over that way one star here Finally long branch schools suck and the town sucks That's why I moved and changed schools.

The people and kids in Long Branch aren't friendly at all. That kid got a lot of wedgies. Whole lot of wedgies there for that young man, I would say. Long Branch schools suck and the town sucks, man. Things to do in this town. Long Branch Ocean Fest. Okay. Yeah, that should be all the time.

Ocean Fest. Ocean Fest, it's 4th of July. Oh, it's a big deal around the summer. They say it's the biggest Independence Day celebration anywhere in New Jersey. Oh, okay. Anywhere. I mean, the whole fucking,

they go pretty hard. The whole shore goes hard on it. The Northeast goes pretty hard on the 4th of July. They do, so it's, I don't know what they're talking about here, but maybe it is. I have no idea. It's a balls claim. Yeah. They say crowds numbering in the hundreds of thousands have come for the last 35 years to this place from all over the place.

I'll bet that's true down the whole fucking coast. It's just people go to the water on those type of things here. They say their sights, sounds and sensations of the summer season. Jesus, that is a lot of things here. They say there's sight, sounds, and sensations of the summer season. Jesus, that is a lot of S's. Visitors can stroll the famous beachfront, take in the wonderful views. Same shit that happens every other time, except there's fireworks, probably.

Enjoy performances by dancers, musicians, clowns, and musical acts. Who brought the clowns? Sample from a smorgasbord of food vendors and check out the wares of crafters from all over the Northeast. You can even see fabulous sand sculptures and meet a familiar costume character

while catching some ocean breezes. Oh, they dress up as people too. Yeah, it just sounds like a bad street fair. It's like Sunset Boulevard, but fucking by the beach. It's beach times square. Yeah, no good. Hollywood Boulevard's awful. So, okay, that said,. It's beach times square. Yeah, no good. Yikes. Hollywood Boulevard's awful. So, okay, that said, let's talk about a murder.

Okay. Now that we're in New Jersey, it's a good place to die. We get it, yeah. Let's talk all about it. Okay, let's go back in time some here. A little bit. Yeah, we're gonna, that's time machine. Things are swirling, clocks are winding. Wind it up, yeah.

1982. Okay. Let's go back to, so yeah, we're going, wow, it's 42 years ago. Yeah. At this moment in time. First let's talk about a man, Walter A. Karras Jr. K-A-R-I-S. K-A-R-A-S, Karras, yeah. Walter A. Karras Jr., which I keep, I want to call him Alex because of Alex Karras, the

guy who played Mongo and Webster's father. Right. Yeah, so that's just the same last name, and I just want to call him Alex. By the way, he is one of the guys we'll talk about in the gambling, uh, Patreon. Oh, yeah, yeah, he got suspended for a whole year. It's fucking hilarious. So this guy, Walter, is a policeman

and has been married for 22 years. That a boy, Walt. He keeps running for Oceanport Borough Council and losing. He runs every year and loses. So. How humbling. Just, yeah, I don't understand. Do you like me yet?

Why he keeps doing it, but he keeps fucking doing it. And he is married to Anne, and that's his wife's name, and they have two children as of 1982. They have an 11- old boy named Walter again The third the third and a 13 year old girl named Christina spelled oddly as well. Really? KRYSTINA Like it starts out almost like crystal and then busts into a Christina It's a transformer. It's a tree. Yeah

now Ann sister-in-law said she always made people feel like they were the best. Like they were the best. They are or the people are the best? She makes you feel like you're the best. Oh, that's nice. She always had a smile.

That's wonderful. Who doesn't wanna hang out with somebody like that? She also, Anne is well known around here where she's active in a lot of the political and social organizations. They really like that, huh? Yes, they're much into that. He's a cop and he runs for shit

and she's into all that kind of thing. And she's very into her children, protective of them, good mom. And making you feel like you're the best. And making you feel like you're the best. They've been married for 22 years and they've talked about divorce a few times. Oh.

Yeah, their marriage is at the Skids. It's 22 years. It happens. People go through rough patches in 22 years, and it happens. And they talked about divorce a little bit, but Anne never wanted to get divorced. She was the one who never wanted to get divorced, because she said it would have brought shame to her large Italian family.

OK, it's that. Yeah, it's what it is. It's cultural. Catholic Italian shit. Yeah. Well, the Italian families, they don't's what it is. It's cultural. Catholic Italian shit. Yeah, it's the, well, the Italian families, they don't want you to get divorced. When my grandmother got divorced, this was like 1968, people came from Italy. To tell her that she's a piece of shit?

To, yeah. What? Yes. Wow. They, her brothers flew over an ocean to yell at her to not get divorced. I gotta take a message to her in person. They flew across a fucking ocean for this. To yell at, like in Godfather 2 when they brought in Frankie Pantangeli's brother to

stare at him and make him fucking not testify. That's exactly what they did to her. And she just ran away and moved to California so they couldn't find, it was crazy. That's how hardcore it was back then. Dead serious. Yeah, they did not want you, and this is 82, it's a little bit later, but still, sometimes it's a little much. And also for the kids, she didn't want to get divorced. They were a respectable couple and she didn't want to be broken up and be a broken up family.

That's not what she's broken home. So March 20th, 1982, Walter and Ann are going out on a date together. That's nice. 22 years, if you're going to stay together you gotta be able to, gotta do things together and get away from people and the kids. It's also impressive if you're seriously considering divorce and you're still doing date nights, that's nice. Yeah, well I think the divorce thing kinda comes and goes.

Wains and ebbs and flows type of deal. So now they go to the movies and they park their car and they start walking toward the movie theater. Now Walter here, they're near an Italian restaurant that's near the movie theater. Walter said, ah shit, I gotta go back to the car. I've left the keys in it. That's not good. So I gotta go back and get the keys.

That's not good. It's going to get stolen. So he runs back to get the keys and says, you just wait here, I'll be right back. So she's hanging out in front of an Italian restaurant, it's a pretty safe area, you know, not terribly dangerous or anything like that. Then diners in the Italian restaurant

thought they heard a woman scream out Walter. Oh. Okay, like multiple times. Now, Walter comes back from getting the keys and finds Anne lying there on the ground, bleeding like crazy and gurgling. And she's been stabbed 22 times. Holy!

And her purse has been taken. Yeah, she has no purse. Her crucifix has been taken off her neck, the gold chain. Robbed. Yeah, and her purse has been taken. Yeah. Yeah, she has no purse. Her crucifix has been taken off her neck, the gold chain. Robbed. Yeah, and her purse has been snatched. Robbed and stabbed like crazy. 22 times is a lot. That's not normal for robbery.

No, robbery is let go of your shit, two, three, and then I'm gone. Enough to get you to let go of your shit and I'm getting the hell out of here. Maybe slashing even, not even stabbed. Yeah, but 22 times is like, fuck you. Yeah. You're gonna die. I want your purse.

I want, yeah, the purse, you could get the purse before 22 stabs. You'd think after like three, four. Yeah, they'd probably go, okay, fine, you just punctured my lung, take my purse, so people freak the fuck out. She dies. Wow.

She dies in the street, literally bleeds out in the street as they wait for help to come. In front of an Italian restaurant. In front of an Italian restaurant. That was in Pigly Joel's song. What the street, literally bleeds out in the street as they wait for help to come in front of Italian restaurant, front of an Italian restaurant. No, that's not one of the scenes from an Italian restaurant. Why'd you leave that one out, Bill? That's not exactly Walter and Annie were in front of the restaurant and got stabbed right on the ground. And it's not the same thing. Fucking Billy Joel. Oh, man. So, yeah, the people freak out.

I can't imagine. Because you know, this nice woman's been. Nobody saw it though? Slaughtered, no, nobody saw it. They just heard it. They heard her scream out Walter, which would make sense. It should be calling for her husband to come help her. You know what I mean?

Because he's a cop too, I'm sure. He would probably jump in there, I assume. Probably carrying. Either carrying, yeah. In a lot of, I don't know if New Jersey is one of them But in a lot of states cops are required to carry firearms even off duty just in case some shit pops off So maybe I remember that from Beverly Hills cop. Oh, yeah Cops actually in Detroit cops are required required to carry firearms at all times

So this is it's a nice area. It's a tourist. It's where people go out to dinner and go to the movies. That's cut. They do not want this is low night central local government. This is the last place they want murders. They want people to go out and spend money and have it be thriving and do all that. It's the, you know, the worst way you could do it. So rewards are posted and a trust fund set up for the children by the coworkers at the police force of Walter. And it's horrible. At the wake, Walter collapses and sobs and he's grieving my poor wife and everybody's – it's horrible. I mean, Jesus Christ.

How do you – Yeah. How do you – 22 years and they've been married since he was 20. Right. Right. That's all he knows. They're both 42, 43 years old.

I mean, this is – they've been together. But he gets cheered up pretty 42, 43 years old. I mean, this is they've been together But he gets cheered up pretty quick Actually, yeah, he had someone said cheer up bitch and he said well, I know how to do that He is seen very shortly after the funeral like within a week Hanging out in Hoboken at the train station with a 21 year old named Mary Claire Williams. That was quick. Yeah, I mean that's a lot.

21. 21 he found. And he's like, I need to get really cheery really fast. This is, I'm super depressed. And relive my 20s. Yeah, that's, yeah, I'm gonna try to go back. I didn't want, I fucked up. I didn't mean to get married and have those kids.

I'm gonna go back and relive my whole life here. So one of the policemen that works with him said we were all just a little surprised I mean, he just buried his wife. Yeah, like it's really just that dude that dirt still loose Yeah, that's just odd. But I mean people have weird reactions to stuff. Maybe he's very lonely And I mean who knows I you don't know what how people feel if they've been together for that long and they die and the kids Are there I get that it sounds bad, but maybe it's not bad and from her perspective though I you don't know what how people feel if they've been together for that long and they die and the kids are there I get that it sounds bad, but maybe it's not bad and from her perspective though. It's even weirder. I think not Yeah, I think it's more this hot older widow. This guy just mmm. He's got loose dirt and yeah still want him

Yeah, this is hot. How do you hot stuff right here? You're on a date with your wife a week ago hot Hot now the thing is this is not new. They've actually been together for like two years Hot stuff right here. You were on a date with your wife a week ago, hot. Hot. Now, the thing is, this is not new. They've actually been together for like two years. He's been banging this 21 year old since she was 19. Yeah. Oh. Yeah.

Oh. Since he was like 41 and she was 19, they've been together. That's so weird. That is, stuff's getting weirder and weirder here. Oh, good grief. Yeah, now a little bit and weirder here. Oh, good grief. Yeah. Now, a little bit about Mary Claire Williams here. She moved to this area with her family from Illinois when her father got a job as an executive

director for the Family and Children's Services in Long Branch in 1974. So that was when she was a kid. And then he left there to go into business for himself. Now, her sophomore year of high school is 1977 and she went to Shore Regional High School and the following year she lived with an aunt who was a nun in Illinois. She spent her senior year with a nun in Illinois. Oh, Lord. Going to a Catholic school probably, right? Yes, she went to Red Bank Catholic school during her senior year.

There you go. Oh, repression. No, she's not repressed. She's out on the surface. No, it's not repressed. She's just rebelling against us, yeah, kind of thing. She has a friend of hers who's a child here. Yeah, in the 80s, this kid's in like eighth grade or something. That's her friend? That's her friend because I guess Mary was a Catholic,

was one of St. Dorothy's CYO, the basketball, CYO basketball, Catholic youth organization. I guess I should say, if you're not from the Northeast, you won't know what CYO basketball is. And she was a star basketball player, Mary was. And then she began coaching sixth, seventh, and eighth graders in another CYO league. And that's how she met this young girl.

Mentoring her, I guess. So she is described as a coach. They described her as not as a coach, but as a woman. They know who she is, because she's young. So she talks to the kids. And they said she was someone who sought out love, but rejected it at the same time. What? Yeah, she was a fierce competitor, they said, with a run and gun style on the court, but then easily persuaded and easily hurt off the court. So not the same. Doesn't

have the same attitude. Her teammates said she was a troubled teenager who had an outgoing personality but still wasn't, didn't make friends easy. Which is really weird. It's a, everybody keeps calling her a paradox. That's what they always call her. She's outgoing, outgoing but doesn't make friends easy, which is the opposite of what's usual. Yeah. And on the court she's really aggressive and everything and then off the court she can hurt her very easily. So it's interesting. They said that when she had a friend, she'd give that person everything she had.

She'd just dump everything into this friend, which can be overwhelming for people. And that might be why she doesn't have, you know, as many friends as she'd liked here. So yeah, they, so they're all, she's a basketball player, basketball coach. And she said, this is her young friend, said she'd do anything for anybody.

She came on a little too strong in an effort to be light. I loved her. Every time I had a problem, she talked to me. So then Mary goes to the Grace Institute, which is a secretarial school in New York City run by nuns. I'm gonna be a nun secretary. Okay.

Why do you wanna be taught secretarial things by nuns? Answering calls for nuns? I don't know. The nuns run a school, a secretarial school. Yeah, it's run by nuns. The principal, Sister Marie Morin, said she was a very outgoing girl and always full of life. You always knew when she was around, which is half, that's a backhanded compliment. You know what I mean? That's one of those. And you always knew she's allowed. Yeah, she ends up working for a law firm

for a couple months, and then she does general reception work from her secretarial background. And then she ended up getting a job at Bear Stearns, which is the brokerage firm in the financial district in New York. It's a big one. Yeah, so she ends up meeting there, and she would commute. She met Walter financial district in New York. It's a big one. Yeah. So she ends up meeting there and she would commute.

She met Walter commuting to New York City by train from Oceanport. They were on the same commuter train together. That's how they met. She's on her way to Bear Stearns and he's on his way to the police department. That's it. It's up north of here, the police department he works in. So she was really looking for somebody to devote her life to, her friend said. And when she met Walter

she's like there it is. Girl you are a child. The love of my life and also he's married with he's been married longer than you've been alive. You're 19. And yeah he's got two kids and she's like nope not gonna worry about any of that stuff. They said no once she hooked up with Walter her friends all said she had no time for anything else.

Really? Her one friend said it was the whole security bit. She wanted someone there all the time. She pushed everybody off after she met him. She was one of the only people I trusted in the world and I don't know where to turn when I don't have her to talk to. This is wild. It's very weird. She would tell her friends that, listen, don't be offended but I have no time for you anymore.

I only have time for him. She would tell them that. I fell in love and you know. Is she hot? Yeah, I mean she's fine. She's pretty. What the fuck? Yeah.

They said until she met Walter, she was a great friend. And then all of a sudden she was like, I have no interest in you. Fascinating. Yeah. They said that she was very good sympathetic ear. Not anymore. Not after Walter. She didn't want to talk to anybody. This is like the girl of your dreams when you're 21. Yeah, not anymore. Not after Alex or not after Walter

She didn't want to talk to anybody like the girl of your dreams when you're 21 when you're 21 Get a girl that's that fucking devoted to like yeah, you'd feel good Yeah, look at that, but it loves me at 43 and you're married You think you've you've bitten off more than you can chew here. Yeah, I mean kids So yeah, they would this is while he's running for the third time for the Oceanport Borough Council Yeah, and so he's got like a true politician. He's got things going on Get some things on the side here fuck his whole thing up. So they would hook up in New Jersey motel rooms all class Jesus all class

He said their first date quote Mary got in the car and said we didn't have to go to a movie a hotel room It would be fine Don't we don't need to go out we're fucking that's it food. Who's Let's just go fuck. Give me your cock. That's it. I eat cock for dinner Incredible he said it was once a week after that What no? Yeah, then they suggested, well, why don't we just commute together by car so we could save money? So they did.

He said, so we ended up with more time together and there was more chances for motel stops. So they could hook up more often here. In May of 1980 near Anaheim, California, Dorothy Jane Scott noticed her friend had an inflamed red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the

exit but would never be seen alive again, leaving us to wonder, decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane Scott? From Wondery, Generation Y is a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more. Every week, hosts Erin and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle in theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. With over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener.

Follow the Generation Y podcast on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. It's all a lighthearted nightmare on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly. And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well researched.

He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called malevolent deity, that is pretty great. A dash of sarcasm and just garnished a bit with a little bit of cursing. This mother f***er lied. Like a liar. Like a liar.

And if you're a weirdo like us and love to cozy up to a creepy tale of the paranormal, or you love to hop in the way back machine and dissect the details of some of history's most notorious crimes, you should tune in to our podcast, Morbid. Follow Morbid on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. During the time they're together, which is from like fall of 81 through 82 here, she gets pregnant twice and has two abortions during that time. Yeah, so two and less than a year. He gets knocked her up twice. He's doing nothing to?

He doesn't seem like he's doing a lot to try to. That's reckless. That's what I mean, especially if you're a married man and all this type of shit and you're having an affair. Don't be knocking people up. She's gotta know about this, right? She also got a boob job as well. Okay.

She said, I figured if mine were bigger, maybe he wouldn't look at other women. That's her quote. So it's not for the right, yeah, this is all a mess. Wow. She said, I figured if mine were bigger, maybe he wouldn't look at other women. That's her quote. So it's not for the right cause. It's, yeah, this is all a mess. Three days after her first abortion or her second abortion, she spoke to Anne on the telephone.

Why? Yeah. Well, Walter had left his wife and went to move in with her from in December of 81. And then a month later he moves back out again. But anyway, Ann calls here after Walter ended up coming home, so this is January of 82, and said that quote, if I didn't leave her husband alone, she was going to wipe the streets of Oceanport with me.

Yikes. This is like Carmela Soprano telling you that. She's not playing. Because that's how I picture her. She said the wife also called her a tramp and a whore and then hung up on her. Yep, that's all about, right? That sounds about like somebody that is afraid of a divorce. Yeah, I think Carmela Soprano said that to the Russian girlfriend, like almost exactly. You're a tramp and a whore and then hung up on her. And that was that. Now, Mary said, I didn't mean, I said, I didn't mean

any harm. I just needed to be loved. And he told me he loved me. She doesn't care about that. She's been married for 20 something years. So he doesn't love you. He loves his kids. Yeah, that's what he, yeah. So five days after Anne is murdered She Mary calls the police in Hoboken to report a threatening phone call Oh, and they said that she said an unknown man called her and said ha ha you're next and hung up on her so Shortly after and is in the ground she moves into the house With the kids and everything. Yeah.

You can't do that. Walter's sister, Patricia, said she was too pushy, too possessive, too domineering. And she said that the kids didn't want her there. She's barely older than them. I mean, it's tough. So then shortly before Christmas, she moves out out and the relationship kind of ends at that point That is because Walter found another chick and this one wasn't good enough anymore

I was told her take a hike this guy pulls fucking trim. Good for him. This is why I don't know I use an asshole apparently but so I'm not good at it. No, I could never do that Wow, I didn't never mind 21 year old that many apparently. I'm not good at it. I could never do that. Wow. Never mind, 21 year old. That many women? I found another one. Mary was working as a secretary at Bear Stearns at the time and she moved to a 30th floor apartment on East 95th Street, so Upper East Side Manhattan. She found a woman roommate.

It was a two bedroom apartment for $1,000 a month on the Upper East Side. Good luck. That is wild. Yeah. That is hilarious. A grand? A grand. That is hilarious.

Unbelievable. So, this is Walter's sister, Patricia, here. She says that it was hard on the kids their first holiday season without the mother and then he's bringing this girl in and then she's leaving and it's really, really strange. She's this Patricia, so she's very angry. I love how you have to stutter through that because you don't want to say sister Patricia.

Sister Patricia. Hey, sister Patricia over here. How New York are you? Yeah, her name's Patricia Geetzee too. Oh, Jesus Christ. G-I-Z-Z-I, so I'm like, this is hard. Because she's married to another ginn over here. So, yeah, she said she's very upset. She says she wrote a poem to put her rage into words.

Oh. She says, I was emotional while I was writing it. I felt a lot of anger too, even though I was writing about Anne. He, whoever did it, is still free. Because months have gone by. And so she writes up a poem here. You got it?

She lit up our family with her happy smile. Now we have darkness and grief across the miles. We visit her grave from day to day and all we can do is hope and pray. It's not that good. No, it's a shoebox Hallmark greeting level of poem. But I mean, she's got emotion in it there. Fred Durst level rapping. Oh yeah, that's kind of a, yeah. It's just Day and Ray and he's got a whole

very, very complicated rhyme scheme. So she wanted to publicize the poem so people would see it and feel compelled to come forward with information. Think about it. She said, they're not saying anything about the murder in the would see it and feel compelled to come forward with information. Yeah, think about it. Yeah. She said, they're not saying anything about the murder in the newspapers. It's discouraging.

And the little bit that builds up, it builds up your hopes. So then she said, sometimes I feel I am grieving the most for I was the one that would like to boast. Boast about a sister-in-law as wonderful as Anne. She was kind and generous and always had a helping hand. Well, she... This sounds like a fourth grader, right? I don't mean to be dick, but it's... It's very Adam Sandler in Mr. D.

Yeah. It's a bad grading card. Roses are red, violets are blue, it's what it is. The words keep flowing, the questions in mind. Why this to her? It wasn't her time. It's very night before Christmas. I feel so bad because of how she's processing your grief.

Yeah. It's terrible. But she didn't need to put this out publicly, I guess. I wouldn't put any poetry out, especially grief poetry. I hope you'll be caught. I know you're insane. You're rotten and cruel. Whatever your name.

I think someone wrote that about Jack the Ripper. So May 28th, 1983, it's 3 AM. And Mary Williams, Mary Claire Williams, is sitting in her apartment on the 30th floor of the Upper East Side. And she calls the police. Yes. She said, I can't take the pressure anymore.

It's about the murder of Ann Carrison Long Branch 345 she had finished her conversation with police and they said we're coming to the city to talk to you right now at 345 in the morning So then she called a lawyer that she used to work for while attending the secretarial classes at 4 a.m Oh god, and yeah, so she had kept in touch with him a little bit here and there and so she needed his help so she called him and said, you know, I'm in some shit, you gotta need help here. So 6.30 a.m. police call the lawyer from her apartment

and they told him they were returning to Monmouth County with her. There were questions to answer and they said she hasn't been charged with anything at this point but they wanna talk to her and she has information about a murder. So then the cops are with her, she tells them a whole bunch of stuff and they say, will you make a phone call that we can record? She says sure.

So she calls Walter. Oh. Yeah. She calls Walter. This is from the telephone call on May 29th and I'll give you the script here. He says hello, she says hi. Hi, how the script here. He says, hello, she says, hi. Hi, how you doing? You're not working today, she says.

Walter says, no, no, remember I took a three day weekend. And she said, ooh, oh boy. And he said, what? And she said, Billy, meaning this county investigator, called me back at my girlfriend's house. And he says, uh-huh, he was a little upset. Walter says, yeah. She says, because I called him so late, you know,

because I told him I'd like call him about nine o'clock. And he says, yeah. I called him about 10.30. Yeah. She says, and he said that, and he said, well, where are you? And I said, I'm in Spring Lake. And he said, well, it's a little, I'm a little tied,

I'm a little tied up right now, it's a little late. And she says, and oh my God, I'm so upset and oh fuck. So she talked to an investigator is what she's saying. He says, it's a game. He's playing a game just like he did with me. Remember? He said they wanted to see me and they never saw me. I thought about that after I left last night. Remember what they did with me? Remember that I said Billy and Long Branch Police Lieutenant Peter Johns both called and they said they wanted to see me? And she said, uh-huh. And he said, and how I would react. And she says, well, I remember that. My God, Walter. He said on the telephone, he said that he was making, he was talking with a man named Riley, who's a police detective, and that he told

him some interesting things and said, you know, Mary, you should really know this Riley. And Walter said, yeah, he's playing a game. You don't know Riley. And she said, Walter, that's one of the people I told. And then she stops. One of the people I told, he says, quote, you fucking idiot, you fucking idiot. That's his response. You fucking idiot. So

she says, what if he talks with father Bradley? And she says, no. And Walter said, no, he can't. She said, Walt, he can talk with him. And he said, uh-huh. Who's Riley? She said, I don't know. He's some guy, a friend of mine brought along to where? When I met him for drinks one day. And she said, he said, and you just blurted it out to him. She said, yeah, I kind of had a few drinks in me. What? You can get drunk and then just start talking about murders. He said, you fucking idiot. Which is like his pet name for her at this point. He said, he said, all right, just tell him, just tell him, all right, here's the game. You've been in state because you were cheating with me and then she got killed and you're putting yourself through a guilt

trip you didn't go any into any detail with this guy did you and she said no I didn't say a word I just kind of said yeah I know what I know a man named Riley so he says no I mean to Riley what did you say she said I told him the whole story Walter says you fucking idiot she. She doesn't get it so far. She does not get it at all. So he then says, you know, or she says, you know, what if they start talking to, to some more friends of mine and some people they know? And Walter said, what do they know? Yeah, that's a great question. What have you told what? Who, what the fuck is happening? She said about four people know

You fucking idiot. Nope you dumb bitch at that point Went from you fucking idiot to you dumb bitch He said you have to keep your mouth shut from now on and if anybody says anything you just you know He starts that that he starts that bullshit you say look I'm on heavy a fucking guilt trip and in my mind. I already believed you know that I had something to do with it Dumb fucking idiot bitch So he said she says uh-huh and she he says okay But in fact I didn't and bill I didn't Billy and I know I don't know what that means sure I may have said something to these fucking people,

but I may have been drunk out of my fucking mind. I was, I was drunk out of my mind when I said that. And from what Walter had told me, I pieced it all together and I made myself the villain because I was on such a guilt trip. Here's your story, I'm giving it to you. I'm on a guilt trip. That's what you tell him.

I felt guilty, that's why I said I had an involvement in the murder. So she says, Walt, then what if, why would he say to me, listen, Mary, he said I better start thinking, thinking hard and do what's right to make things easier for myself. Listen, Walter, if he's getting too close to settling it, all right, my God, I think we ought to just, I think we ought to turn ourselves in because he'll make it easier on us. And he says, sure, then what?

What? What does that do to my kids? And she said, I can't worry about your kids. in because he'll make it easier on us and he says sure then what what what does that do to my kids and she said I can't worry about your kids I got to worry about myself if they're gonna solve the case and get us all right that's then then we're just gonna sit that's just gonna sit us in jail and he says you are going to spend the rest of your natural life and so am I in fucking prison if we open our mouths if we shut up the drunken boast in a fucking bar doesn't mean shit you fucking idiot you dumb bitch dumb bitch he said if he had that much conclusive evidence he'd be down to Spring Lake to pick you up understand that she says he's let me tell you

something and Walt says he's pushing us to the limit she said you know what I think he's doing Walter said he's and she said, you know what I think he's doing? Walter said he's and she cuts him off and says, I think he knows everything and he wants to help me out. And so he's not. And she said, he says, sure. And they said, coming to get me. And Walter says, sure. She says, he's not gonna, he's gonna let me sweat it out and he's gonna maybe give me until Tuesday and come get me. I can't be embarrassed like that at my job and have to have him pick me up there. It's murder, your job doesn't matter anymore.

I think I'd be a lot easier if I went to him now. She said, he says, don't do it, Mary, please, hon. Don't do it. You'd be a fool if you did it. We both know it, just be fucking idiotic, as you are a fucking idiot. So she says, my God, Walter, they gotta know. This is the cops are listening

to all of this. He says, no, they don't have to know anything. They've just been fucking fishing. Somebody could have just went in and said, look, I don't know how true this is. She was a drunk son of a bitch and she kept admitting this. If you pull yourself together right now and say, no, fuck it. How I, Billy, how I was drunk as a fucking skunk. I don't know what the I don't know what the fuck I said you're home free they can't do anything and she said well he mentioned he said they were checking things out on visa to his Visa card he said so so I have a knife here don't worry about it keep your mouth shut she said I can't what and

he said keep your mouth shut and we're okay. She said, yeah, but the knife that and he says, Mary, shut the shut the fuck up. Basically, she says, when you took me to Woodbridge, that knife wasn't the same. That's on the visa bill. He said, it doesn't matter. She said, they can go to Herman's and check out the knives and there's, and he said, so, so what I'll say, hey, the fucking girl must have made a mistake. I don't know anything. Mary, please, please, I beg you, please. I'll say she must have rung up the wrong fucking product.

Yeah, that's all. She said, Walter, I don't know what to do. I think it would just be a hell of a lot easier if we just, and he said, Mary, don't do this. He said, went and told him. And Walter says, Mary, please please what more can I say? But please we have made a fucking mistake and we're both paying for it now Let's not pay any more and make other people pay your parents your work your boss every fucking body think about those people I think about my kids. We've done one fucking injustice

But if we shut our fucking mouths and just say yeah, I may have boasted Billy But you know come on. I was fucking drunk out of my mind. Didn't know what I was saying. She says, all right, look, my girlfriend's cup and got common. Listen, I got to call Billy to meet him. He says, uh huh. She says, I'll have, I'll call you back.

I'll have, I'll have to call you back after I have a meeting with him. He says, Mary, please, I'm begging you with all my heart and all of my fucking soul. Please don't be fucking stupid Keep your mouth shut, please She says alright, listen, you're gonna be home. Listen, stay home. He says I'll be home all fucking day I'm not going and I ain't going no ways and she says alright He says I've got the runs like you have now, but we got to keep strong Okay, what like she he wants to run, not be shitting himself. Oh, okay.

What? When did they talk about that? Look, I got this shits real bad. Just like you. Just like you, you dumb shit. He said, we gotta be strong this time. This is the time. This is the one last fucking push.

She said, all right, well Walter, let's say it's the one last push. Okay, but we don't know what they have, okay? And let's say he spills it out in front of me. Remember when you told me and you went over it with me and if they come to me and they tell me they've got this case solved and solved and then here's how it was done and here's how you, here's what you did and here's remember you planned all that? He said, yeah. Idiot.

Who's the dummy now? Who's the dummy now? That's what I mean. And she said. You dumb bitch, Walter. Walter, you. Idiot. Who's the dummy now? Who's the dummy now? That's what I mean. And she said- You dumb bitch, Walter. Walter, you dumb fucking idiot. She said, and you said we'd both deny everything.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. She said, if you talk, I'll deny. If I talk, you'll deny. Uh-huh. She says, Walter, if he knows everything, and he says, look, you better just tell us because we'll go easier on you. If they do that, she said, quote said quote and then Walter said they're not going

to go easier honey you're not going to get a deal you're talking about life life life the rest of your fucking life murder stays murder stay murder as they say on the wire no deal no nothing and you can't claim insanity or any other bullshit you went with me to get the knife I mean you went with me to get the knife. I mean, you went with me to get the jacket, the hood. We planned it. It was perfect. We did it and it's over. Oh, you idiot.

You fucking idiot. You said what? Oh, okay. He said, you can't say now that you didn't know what the fuck was happening. If he spills the whole thing, he tells you, don't say Billy, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Honestly, you have to be cool. You can be. I know you can. You're tough. Now, Billy, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, honestly. You have to be cool. You can be.

I know you can. You're tough. Now, baby, pull through it. She's just pointing at the phone. See guys, I told you. This is good. Tape, tape fucking rolling. Just rolling.

Why? You can see it going. She says, what? Yeah. Let's repeat that. She said what? What? I don't know, pull through what?

I don't know what. And he said, pull through it. You can do it. I think he's pushing you to the edge. They haven't got enough to get an indictment or you'd be fucking indicted already. On this guy's statement, you could be indicted. Okay. They can go get you to a grand jury and convince them that you've got enough involvement to

indict you, okay? She says, uh-huh. He says, and they haven't, which means they don't know for sure and they need you to collaborate what you fucking said to this guy. You could say, man, I don't know what the fuck I said. I was so fucking drunk and I did some drugs and some shit. You know, I just took some drugs. She said, yeah, but you know I don't do drugs.

He said, you can say it. You can say anything and they can't prove it. Otherwise, just say drugs. I don't fucking care. She says, all right, listen, I'll call you back. And he says, be cool, honey, please. You can do it. I know you can. Okay. She said, all right. And he says, okay, keep it tight. Be good. Bye bye. Keep it tight. Your story, not your ass. And she says bye. So that's idiot. The cops are like, well your ass, sweetheart. And she says bye. So that's... Idiot.

The cops are like, well, okay, we know everything that happened now. That was easy. Yeah. So what ended up, what happened is Mary stabbed Ann 22 times. By the way, how long were they married? 22 years. 22 years. That's pretty amazing, isn't it?

Did she do it on purpose? No. No. No. Just a coincidence. No, she says later she just fucking. Just lost her mind. Remembered him saying, make sure she's dead, make sure she's dead so she can't identify you. So she was fucking hacking at her

till she was pretty sure about it. So May 29th is the next day after the phone call, Walter is lured to the L&M diner in Ocean Township by a phone call from Mary. Meet me at the diner. When he got there, he's arrested, of course. Yeah, so they arrest him and they charge him with murder, obviously.

They also charge her with murder too. I mean, she did it. So the police say she's the one who did it. You know, so you can't just let her go. They're each held on a million dollars bond or bail. The prosecutor said they are not seeking the death penalty because the crime was committed before the death penalty law was signed

in New Jersey at that time. His attorney is pleading for reduced bail. Yeah, he said that his client needs to be home with his children. I don't know, he said he's got the runs. He's got the runs, there's a lot going on. And a man who owns two pieces of property in the state is unlikely to flee.

I don't know. Murder, it's a big one. You'll leave your New Jersey property. He's losing both, no matter what the outcome. It doesn't matter. Yeah, he's gonna have to pay his fucking lawyer here. Now the lawyer she called, who she was friends with and worked for, can't represent her

because he's only licensed in New York. So she has to get another lawyer, and they said that her new lawyer said, I don't think she's resigned to anything yet. I don't think she fully realizes what she's up against. Yeah, there's no way she knows. And they made her seem like you're working with us. This is, you're part of this.

You're doing great. And she even, wait till you hear what she says about that. I'll leave it to them. So now the kids end up being separated from each other, the Carris kids. The 12 year old boy is sent to stay with an aunt and the 14-year-old daughter to the family of a school friend in Oceanport.

School friend? So she can stay in the same school. So I don't think it's good for them to be split up, though. No, and I don't like going to a friend rather than family. Their mom's murdered. Yeah, they're 12 and 14. Oh yeah, mine are that age. That's crazy.

So now a friend of Mary's here said that, this is the young lady, she was like a junior in high school while this is happening. She said that she saw Mary a few weeks before and she said, you never would have suspected anything was wrong at all. She said she doesn't believe that her friend

could have committed this brutal murder. Really? Even though she admitted to it. She said so. Still doesn't think she did it. She said, if I believe she did it, it would be like my own mother did it. She was like my older sister, and I

know she wouldn't be capable of such a thing. Couldn't even? Nope. She said, I'm going to visit her in jail as soon as I can. She said, I feel like she was there whenever I needed her, so I'm going to be there for her. If she did do it, she must have been in some state of mind. She was a very easy person, an animal type on the court,

but sweet off the court. So yeah, they said she's angered by reports that her friend had a fascination with men in uniform. She said, I couldn't believe when I read that about her. No way was she a cop lover or followed uniform guys, no way. So she just happened to wanna fuck this guy. So anyway, they figure out that Walter bought a knife and a sporting goods store and charged it

to his fucking credit card like an idiot. Oh my God. Not even cash, that's, how dumb are you? He bought the murder weapon on credit? On his own credit card. Oh my God. Dip shit, and on that night, he had Mary Waite hiding behind a dumpster

in a parking lot by the movie theater. For the mother of his children. For the mother, he said, yeah, she'll be walking by, I'll leave, and then she jumped out and started stabbing the shit out of Ann. She fled the scene and went to Atlantic City to establish an alibi. She threw the murder weapon into the Atlantic Ocean. Really?

Yeah, which I mean, that's the first smart thing they've done. Her purse, which was taken, that was, they took it, she said, make sure you take the purse, because then it'll look like a robbery. But 22 stab wounds and it'll look like a robbery. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondry+,

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She threw that into the river and we'll find out what she did with the stuff that she had in the purse here. So she pleads guilty. She's gonna plead guilty. She pleads guilty to the stabbing and she has to the purse there. So she pleads guilty. She's gonna plead guilty. She pleads guilty to the stabbing and she has to testify against him. So she's described in the newspaper as quote,

the pale 21 year old Millie Williams admitted to Superior Court Judge John A. Riccardi that she and Walter Carras conspired to kill his wife on the evening of March 20th, 1982. Williams stabbed the 43 yearyear-old volunteer worker 22 times with a hunting knife, according to police. And she said, he planned the whole thing, she said. She said that she will testify truthfully

and all that kind of thing. They said, this is in sharp contrast to the jovial attitude she displayed at her arraignment, where she was laughing and giggling and shit. They were like, tone that shit down This is insane. What are you doing ma'am? So in in return for her guilty plea and testifying They told her that the felony murder and armed robbery would be dismissed at the time of her sentencing and she'd be sentenced only for The like a regular murder here. She's charged with armed robbery because she took all the shit obviously here

like a regular murder here. She's charged with armed robbery because she took all the shit, obviously, here. So they're gonna recommend a prison sentence of 30 years with up to 15 years of no parole eligibility on the murder and conspiracy charge. That's what the prosecution's gonna recommend. The judge tells her, even though you're pleading to this and that's your deal, it's up to the court.

So you might get life. So that's on the table. You cool with that? And she said, yeah. I can't go home. Yeah, what else am I gonna fucking do at this point? I'm kind of in deep at this point They said if you realize that if the court sentences you to 30 years, you'd not be released from prison for a minimum of 15 Do you understand that and she said yes, and they said are you doing this because you want to plead guilty?

Is anyone making you do it and she said no, it's just my conscience Yeah, so there she is in court spills it all. Here five hours of testimony. Oh boy. And during his trial, they said it ranged from tearful confessions, girlish laughter, coy blushes and downcast guilty glances. The whole gamut. Wow. She met him on the path train in fall of 81. She tells the whole story. She said when she left him in Christmas of 82 she said I just I didn't love him anymore But I just couldn't handle the guilt

So yeah, she said that um Helping police implicate him was quote fun. She said She's not right in the head. No, she said it's like playing cop and I always wanted to be a cop. No It's not it's like they were making it. No, it's like you murdered somebody Yeah teamed up with the cops to get your accomplice like when bubbles thought he was a cop and they're like, you're not a fucking We pay you $20 to get info like some hats on people's heads. Yeah Wow, that's wild. So they said that his attorney said that she planned the murder herself and always with the intention of implicating him, he said she considered it a game.

So we know from the phone call that's not it. We planned it. He said those three words together. The prosecution, by the way, this is fucking hilarious. When they close their case, they play the tape and then say prosecution rest That's the end of their presentation like oh by the way the hammer is down now. Yeah Peace out bitches We're gonna cross anybody

Don't care let me know when you're ready don't care You know what, I'm gonna get a fucking sandwich. You guys gotta do it. Don't care. Let me know when you're ready. Don't care. So she said between February 16th and March 20th, 1982, they began to figure out different methods of killing Ann. The ones they chose didn't take were shooting her.

You know, it's kind of cliche. Staging a bathtub accident. That's tough. Killing her with an overdose of drugs and devising a mechanical failure in her car's brakes. So she'd like pass out and careen off the road into the ocean. These are all just a cold case files for a season.

That's all. And he said, then they said, like armed robbery and a stabbing ought to do it. You know? Wow. Nobody'll see that. He coached her how to use the knife, even taped the handle with electrical tape

so it wouldn't slip and she wouldn't cut herself. He told her what's gonna happen. Oh, he told her exactly what to do. There's gonna be blood everywhere. You gotta hang on to this thing. As she was to wait by the movies and he was gonna leave her momentarily, she said he said he was gonna look like the perfect husband

in front of everyone's eyes, so he would take her out frequently to establish that, to go out all the time. So, oh, this is normal that we do. Yeah, that's the thing. And that's just the one time they go out. Look at them working on their relationship. Isn't that sweet?

What a good guy. So during the stabbing, she said all that ran through her mind was Walter's words to her. He just kept saying, make sure she's dead. Make sure she's dead. Don't talk to her, because then if she doesn't die, she'll be able to identify you. Make sure she's dead.

Wow. And they said, did you hear her make any sound and she said she gurgled she said I didn't want her to be killed I just wanted him to get a divorce that's what she said she's headed for Atlantic City after that through her bloody clothes in the ocean yeah which seems like a weird place to do it I just throw it in an Atlantic City casino dumpster there's worse shit in there. No one would notice. Just drop it on the corner in Atlantic City. There's fucking people in those.

There's blood down there. Yeah, there's like prostitutes in there and shit. People just threw them away when they were done with them. It's awful. There's blood close there. She said she took out $60 in cash out of Ann's pocketbook, along with a gold crucifix and a bic lighter. She said, because it worked and I smoke.

So it was useful to me so I kept it. She said she threw the bag in the ocean checked into the ritz in Atlantic City and went out to the Playboy club to gamble. She said she won in gambling and paid for her Hertz rent a car and cash the next day. She tried to get the blood stains off the rug and steering wheel of the car, but she said then she gave up She said either it's my blood or it's not I don't care. I just want to be caught she recalled thinking So wow, she said that he kept his distance from her for several weeks for decorum sake She said she said oh he drilled this into my head good. He said that if his in-laws especially his brother-in-law Tony Gaeta

Tony's a bad man if he thought we had anything to do with it he'd kill us both both? yeah no Tony Gaeta is gonna fucking kill you if you kill his sister and your friend he doesn't care yeah this is he's dealing with a huge crazy Italian family it's not good you don't kill one of the sisters this guy was seated in the front row too like you bet your ass I would've killed you. I was gonna get you.

I still might, I'm gonna be honest with you. You're still here, ain't ya? He's still here, I don't know. So she said on April 10th, which was less than three weeks after the murder, and when quote, we were in the clear, that's when she started spending time with him. In the clear?

In the clear, it's been 20 days since the murder. 20 days, it's not solved. They first saw each other by arranging an accidental meeting while he took his children to the Museum of Natural History in New York City. Just be there, we'll be there at this time. Hey, how are you doing? And then she then accompanied him

to a Lions Club convention in Atlantic City the last weekend in May, but said, she said, but she could not attend the social events because he said, I don't want she could not attend the social events because he said, I don't want you to be seen with me because it's too soon. Like you're my wife. It was very obvious in June. She began to live most of the week at their home and they even took a vacation in the Poconos, which we've done. We know what that's about from your stupid opinions. Yeah, you should definitely listen to your stupid opinions.

There's a thing on the Poconos and everything else you can think of. The summer after the murder while the children were away at camp. Wow. Had a nice time. She did tell a bunch of people about the murder during her stay at the house. And she said she told two different priests during confession. Really? You can't have a chick who's this Catholic help you kill somebody because she will tell

a priest. She's going to tell a priest. That's just it. Yeah. She said, that's fucking funny. So when he learned of her confessions, he said, quote, you fucking idiot. You know priests can quit, don't you? Like he might not be a priest next week.

Right. Fucking jackass. So by Christmas of 82, she said she was ready to leave, partly because of discipline problems she was encountering with the children. Oh, she couldn't do it. It's almost like you killed their mother and they're upset about it. It's almost like they now have mental problems. Weird.

They don't have a mom. Strange. And a stranger is telling them what to do. A stranger who's barely more than a child is telling them what to do. Strange, taking their mom's place. Telling us what to do. She said, I said to him, I'll always love you. And he said, I'll always love you and he said I'll always love you

You know the normal things you say when you're breaking up. She said She she said and I and I said we'll always have this thing meaning the murder to keep us together Holy shit, and they asked her of course again. How do you feel about him now? And she said I'm just angry at him so his defense is Just angry at him. So his defense is that she's a vindictive young woman who wove a web of deceit around her former lover after he broke up with her. I mean, yay, that's the only path you've got.

She said the admissions on tape, how do you explain that? Were only platitudes uttered to a confused young girl who was constantly harassing him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he went through, this is what we did to kill my wife. What are you talking about? That's a platitude?

Yeah, yeah. Holy shit, they called the 15-year-old daughter to the stand. Oh, fuck. Which is crazy. She said she received a 4 a.m. telephone call shortly after her father broke up with Mary, from Mary, and she answered the phone, and she said, quote,

your father killed your mother. Yeah, she's just ratting about. That's wild. And then she called back and apologized later and said no, I was just upset, that's why I said that. She wrote to Christine a quote, I didn't mean what I said, I was just angry and upset for the way you and little Walter treated me

while I was dating your father. She describes that she loves, I love your father more than most people and the love we share is more than most people have in a lifetime. And she said to put your mother's murder in proper perspective and let the memories of your mom live on inside you. And then Christina said, don't, that the last line, don't feel cheated for the time you didn't have with your mom. Oh my. That is fucking weird gross super weird. So yeah, the defense attorney said listen

Yeah, she's fucking nuts. He said they took her to a psychiatrist over here, right? Okay, so they said she's not she can't be trusted Cuz she's crazy. She said that presented psychiatric testimony Dr. John P motley said after two clinical interviews with her, with the murderous as the paper called her, he diagnosed her as suffering from borderline personality disorder, which that sounds about right. She said, he explained it this way, which is a really weird way of explaining.

There's a definite way to explain this. She said, he said, quote, it means she's on the borderline of being pretty sick, which is not what it means. She projected the responsibility of the murder of Mrs. Carras entirely on Mr. Carras. At no time does she indicate she was acting other than doing it for him. He said such denial and projection is consistent with her disorder and he believes that Mary should not be punished for the murder or she believes that she shouldn't be punished for the murder and that she shows

no remorse or concern for the deceased. I agree with that. Yeah, she certainly doesn't. She was more upset that the kids were mean to her than she killed a person. So they said that demonstrates the skewed perception symptomatic of borderline disorder. Other manifestations of the illness are on display like narcissism, hostility, resentment, feelings of dependency, paranoid fantasies, and the tendency toward intense and unstable interpersonal relationships.

She's super fucked up in that she like... They're the ones that push you to fight. And when she gets upset, she goes the fucking furthest extreme that she can go. To stick with the sopranos, she's the girlfriend who hit Tony with the steak the Mercedes she wanted him to come back and punch her That's what she wants. Yeah, it's a person else. She wants the drama could be anybody but yeah, that's how it goes Yeah, I love when he walks in and junior says, what do you eat in steak as he walks by smells him? That's the funniest fucking life. So He did the doctor went on to say,

she stated that she had no choice, that Walter planned it, but she had to carry it out. And the doctor said it is impossible to determine if, as Mary is accurately perceived and related the events, so we don't know. Walter testifies. Unbelievable. He's gotta, he has to.

Awesome. The only thing he can do. Oh, I wish I could have been. That would have been watching him. If only I wasn't just one year old. Yeah, that would have been, if only we weren't fucking infants at the time. So the, he details his affair. He said that she came up to him in 1981, she quote, she walked up to me and whispered in

my ear, are you a cop? And that's how they got started. I don't know. Cops won't pull out their dick. He said quote, quite honestly I was 42 and she was a very young girl and I was quite flattered by her advances toward me. Yeah, that is nice.

Yeah, that sounds pretty good. He described her as a flighty young girl who contrived to meet up with him as often as possible during their daily commute. He said, she was making a pass for me. So yeah, he said that he can shred this, this affair contributed to his straining marriage. Well, no shit. Yeah. If you're fucking someone, he said, I had taken an attitude. I was disinterested. I wasn't much of a father around the house. And then his wife told quote, told me to get out of the house. So he checked into a YMCA in North Jersey.

Oh, God, you can stay there? Back then, yeah. It's fun to stay at the YMCA. Yeah, that's a little strong. For sure, but I didn't know you could live there. People used to stay at the Y. There was like a cot? Yeah, you could stay in the Y.

It was like a cheap hotel. Jesus Christ, no. Yeah, back in the day, they don't do that shit anymore, but back in the day, like the 50s and 60s, that was like where people would go because that's the cheap place to go. That's gross. I got a planner's wart from the YMCA. Yeah, the Y is not where you want to sleep.

But he said she spent, he said he never slept there though. Instead he spent several nights sleeping in railroad cabooses, like a hobo. He went to sleep in rail cars. He said that when Mary learned that he was homeless, quote, it was like Christmas. She got very excited and told me to bring my clothes. She said she couldn't have me sleeping on the railroad. Oh my. Yeah.

He said, I told her, she introduced him to a friend as her boyfriend. And he said, quote, I told her that that was not so. I was not her boyfriend. We were friends and we were having a relationship We're fucking we're fucking we're friends who fuck. Okay, you know, I'm not your boyfriend Yeah He said that He lived with Williams from November 81 to January 82 when he moved back in with his wife and that's when she called her and called her a tramp and a whore and

He said that he disputed everything she said. He said he never gave her a pre-engagement ring, which she said he did. He also said that he had little to do with Williams finding an apartment that made their meetings more convenient. He said that he never promised to divorce his wife or anything like that. He does admit that he went to a store in Lower Manhattan with her to purchase a ski jacket but said he did it only as a favor for her and he hadn't seen her in more than a month so he went. She asked him to meet her after work with his car because she had to buy a large package that would be too clumsy

to take home on the train. He thought the jacket was a gift for her brother. He said just as we were getting ready to leave the store she decided to buy a ski mask because her brother would get a kick out of it, quote unquote. So he testified that they purchased the jacket and ski mask for her to wear during the murder. That's what she had testified. This is what she was supposed to wear.

No, I was just giving people some gifts. He said she just wanted to go shopping. He said, he brought her to Manhattan for an abortion. He said, quote, she told me she was pregnant. I was a real hero. I asked her what she was going to do about it. She told me she wanted to have an abortion. And she said it was the first of two pregnancies there.

And she said that was a topic of heated telephone conversation between Mary and Ann. She didn't like that. Yeah. Ann found out. Ann found out. Yeah. I guess she called one. Yeah. Ann found out. Ann found out. Oh, jeez.

I guess she called one time Mary and Ann answered. Walter said, quote, my wife asked if it was that bitch on the phone. Then she grabbed the telephone, called her a tramp and a few other words. She went at her in a way I've never really seen Ann do before. She did say she would wipe the streets of Oceanport with her and then Ann went silent. I gotta say, that's fucking great. Like I'd never seen that. He was probably like, Oh, my dick got rock hard when she started saying that. We fucked for hours. Yeah. Then Ann looked at him and said, quote, you had

an abortion with her and yeah, quote, Ann was really religious and it really messed her mind up. His wife then told Ann of the trouble she had experienced in conceiving children and then hung up. Anne was very upset that Mary had an abortion with my child, which is the opposite of what Carmella would have been like, I'll kick the fucking, I'll kick that baby out your ass. You don't need an abortion. I'll do it myself because that was her old things. She was so scared Tony was going to do that. So Anne was upset that the, his baby was aborted. That's crazy. Yep. So anyway, he said that basically that he never, he had no part of this. It's all her and I don't know what the hell she's talking about.

I knocked her up twice. I'm sorry. I made her crazy. Yeah, that's it. So I don't know. She was just making up stories and plugging holes, he said, which is a weird way to put it. You can't say that. No. A, you've had abortions from having so much sex with this man and the wife had so many holes in her. Yeah. You can't say anything about holes. No holes. That's what I mean. It's terrible. The prosecutor said to him you wanted to play this game and keep playing this game so somewhere along the line you could get the brass ring and go to bed with her. She is terrorizing you and your family and you still want to spend your weekends with

her. Is that right, you fucking idiot? Verdict comes in, seven man, five woman jury and six and a half hours of deliberation. They asked for the tape again to listen to. Yeah, they're like, let's listen to that again. Can you get us a sick beat too that we can scratch over it? Yeah, it's like a mixtape would be good because I want to hear different shit.

He is found guilty of complicity to commit murder and armed robbery, felony murder, and conspiring to commit murder, felony murder, and armed robbery. So all those multiple counts. He's a bad guy. Bad counts, found guilty on everything. Now the sentencing for him, you, sir, may fuck off 70 years. Jesus. No parole

for 35. He's 44. He's going to be. That's 79. Yeah, that's not good. Good luck chief. You're not fucking any 21 year old zen. I'll tell you that much. So the prosecutor said, obviously I'm happy with the verdict. I think the evidence indicated unquestionably that he was guilty of the crime. Therefore I think the system worked. Yeah, he's never getting pussy ever again. Never again. It's over. It's all over for especially not young pussy. Yeah. I don't think he's gonna even get his own age pussy. No more pussy. No. He'll be like, what, you just got out of jail for murder? You murdered your wife? I'm never fucking you. Then again, if he's still alive,

there's not a lot of men alive at that age. They can fuck it all. There's not a lot of men alive at that age. They can take any dick they can get. They can fuck it all. Yeah. His defense attorney maintains his client was caught in a web of deceit woven around him by a spurned and vengeful young woman who decided to implicate him in the murder

after he began seeing another woman. So she gets sentenced as well, and she gets, you ma'am, they fuck off, 30 years in prison, no parole for 15. So the judge went with the prosecuting guideline and she went to the Women's Correctional Institution in Clinton. Oh my God.

Not good. The time, oh boy. Yeah, not great and she's eligible in 15 years. She's out. Oh, she's out, yeah. Oh yeah. Way out. And out there.

And out, oh yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. She's wacko and out of the place. To tux from something from your stupid opinion, she's out out. Yeah. Oh, yeah way out like and out there. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's what I mean She's wacko and out of the place to tucks from something from your stupid opinion. She's out out. Yeah She's out out so there you go, oh my god, there is Long Branch, New Jersey What a story keep an eye out for? She's a bet. She's in her 60s now, but It's pretty common Mary Williams. Yeah, that's a million Mary Williams So dangerous broad. It's oh, she's dangerous boy And he's like wow I found a someone who's dumb enough to commit my murder murder for me basically

And he's a fucking awful scumbag and I can call her a dumb bitch to her and she's like you fucking idiot She's like I know I know no Fucking crazy, so if you're 21 you hold the fucking you have the power you have the power Especially if you have a vagina in your 21, you have the power. You have the power. Don't listen to him. Especially if you have a vagina and you're 21, you have even more power. You're the winner. Yeah, he's once. Don't care how much money he has.

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