Small Town Murder - #487 - Handsome, Charming & Deadly - Radford, Virginia

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

This week, in Radford, Virginia, when a young lady goes out to dance, she meets a good looking guy, with a very dark past, that she knows nothing about. By morning, she's missing, and the whole area searches for her with no luck. Once blood is found, the investigation heats up with more detectives, psychics & tracker dogs, but she is nowhere to be found. Will this charming young man be charged, even though there's no body? And how many more bodies are out there??Along the way, we find out that you don't fight a guy who wears a kilt, that just because there's no body, doesn't mean there isn't a crime, and that you can't tell a serial killer by their cover!!Hosted by James Pietragallo and Jimmie WhismanNew episodes every Thursday!Donate at: patreon.com/crimeinsports or go to paypal.com and use our email: [e-mail] to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things Small Town Murder & Crime In Sports!Follow us on...twitter.com/@murdersmallfacebook.com/smalltownpodinstagram.com/smalltownmurderAlso, check out James & Jimmie's other show, Crime In Sports! On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, Wondery, Wondery+, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and originals featuring authentic Canadian voices and celebrity talent, like Brendan Fraser and Luke Kirby's latest sci-fi adventure, The Downloaded. A first listen is waiting for you when you start your free trial at audible.ca. We've all turned to the internet to self-diagnose when some random ailment pops up in our lives. Even though our minds often go to a worst-case scenario when we experience these things,

most times it's nothing to worry about. However, for an unlucky few, their weird symptoms are just the start of a terrifying medical mystery. Listen to Mr. Bolland's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts. This week in Radford, Virginia, a celebratory night of dancing ends with a massive search for a missing young woman. But will all the evidence, dogs, psychics, and common sense in the world be enough to solve it, welcome to Small Town Murder.

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my cohost. I'm Jimmy Wissman.

Thank you folks so much for joining us today on another crazy wild, really crazy edition of Small Town Murder, as usual. As, I mean, we're still catching our breaths from a couple weeks ago. Our collective breath from Wisconsin, but there's a lot. This is, oof, this is twisted stuff here. But before we get to all of that,

certainly want to say head over to shutupandgivememurder.com right now. Get your tickets to live shows. First of all, if you're listening to this, I think the virtual live show is still available. You can grab that. Also, get your tickets to regular live shows because we are coming to Durham, North Carolina, May 31st. Still some tickets available for that. Next night Nashville sold out. So Durham, get your tickets right now.

We will see you there. Rest of the year, they're going fast. So get in there. Minnesota, Minneapolis, you can be our biggest show ever. Get those tickets right now so we can tell everybody when we're asked, what was your biggest show ever? Minneapolis. Let me tell you about it. The Minnesotans came through everybody when we're asked. What was your biggest show ever? Minneapolis the Minnesotans came through so we're very excited for that can't wait shut up and give me murder calm Also tons of merch up there and all sorts of neat stuff. Yeah, check that out. You definitely want some bonus material

Patreon is what you need here patreon.com Slash crime in sports which is the name of our other podcast, right? You should be listening to that and also your stupid opinions. But that's besides the point. Patreon, you definitely want anybody five dollars a month or above. You get it all. Everything, all the bonus stuff. Couple hundreds of there's hundreds of back episodes of bonus stuff.

I'm going to check in on and then new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. And you're going to get it all this week, every other week one crime and sports one small town murder and you're going to get it all This week which you get for crime and sports. We're going to talk about the whole Otani gambling debacle Yeah, where they within like a week. They just decided no no he's fine. Everything's good Quickest investigation in baseball history we decided he's wonderful is what we decided never mind and some other gambling Incidents that were swept right on under the rug the ones that weren't Pete Rose Basically all of those and then for small-town murder We're gonna go down a big old conspiracy rabbit hole here the whole group

We're gonna dive on in and the subject is was Charles Manson Actually a CIA asset that was doing everything he did at the bidding of the CIA For political means or whatever. Yeah, governmental means. It's wild. The guy ruined his life and spent 20 years writing a book about this whole thing. So he's got some wild theories and we'll talk all about them and some other CIA related weirdness that goes on. So we'll talk all about that.

That's patreon.com slash crime in sports and you get a shout out at the end of the show as well. So I can't beat that. Jimmy's going to mispronounce your name. How's that for fun? That said let's get to the disclaimer. It's disclaimer time. This is a comedy show, right? We're comedians people there is terrible death. We can't help that the show's called small-town murder So that's gonna happen and we're gonna make jokes. But the thing is we try not to like Ghostbusters. You don't cross the streams Yeah, there's nothing funny about an actual the actual act of the murder you know no one's really laughing at that part it's the other parts it's when

a murderer has a terrible excuse or a police department doesn't notice that someone's obviously a murderer and lets them murder more people there's something funny about incompetence and just insane insanity and hubris so that's what we make jokes about. Everything like that. Small towns, because we're all from a small town, who cares? It's roast time, it's fun stuff. So that's how we do things.

What we don't do though, we go out of our way not to do, is we do not make fun of the victim or the victim's families. Oh, why is that, James? Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags. There you go. That's how that goes. So if that sounds good to you, man are you in for a wild story today.

If you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together, you might be in the wrong place. It's possible. I would say. But you know what? Give it a chance. Let's see what you do. You don't know.

And either way, no bitching later. Not a single complaint. No complaining. That said, I think it's time everybody. Let's all clear the lungs. What do you say? And let's all shout, shut up and give me murder. Let's do this everybody.

What do you say? Let's go on a trip, shall we? Let's do it. We are going all the way to Virginia this week. And if we both sound a little off, it's because we are. We are both extremely ill. We caught something together. It's a fucking disaster.

We're just sharing it and giving it back and forth. And we're very, very sick. So we're trying our best. We in spirit, we're fine. But our heads and the mucus content of them is not cooperating. Well, we'll We'll be alright though. But we're going to Radford, Virginia, which right away I have to say the college that's here, Radford University, when studying murder cases, every once in a while, one out of 50, 60 of them, there'll be a murderer that Radford University studied. And when they study them they put together this whole like profile on them starting with birthplace, where parents together, what were their occupations, how many brothers and sisters. It's just basically an entire biography

and it's the greatest thing in the world for someone trying to put together a true crime podcast. So they're wonderful the people of Radford University for doing that for us. So I have to say that. This is in southwestern Virginia. It's about 50 minutes to Roanoke and about four hours to McLean, Virginia, which is our last Virginia episode, episode 444, a tale of two sisters. That one wasn't that was a wild episode. So this is the gals that were switching. Yeah, yeah, that was crazy, man. Those sisters were out there. So this is on the gals that were switchin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was crazy man. Those sisters were out there So this is on the line of two different counties It's so weird when they don't when they put a big place in the middle of two counties. It makes no sense whatsoever

Be very complicated for you know garbage the county goes down through the town. Yeah. Yeah cuts right there We've had it a few times. It's weird the area code 540 and the motto of this place the new river city Yeah, the new river is here. So there you go a little bit of history. It was named for dr John B Radford. So there you go. It was originally a small place here by the river and Basically, it was a draw because there was fresh water and food in the river if you're traveling. Sure, sure. There you go. And then in the 1850s they built the railroad through here and then the population spikes as we see in these towns all the time.

Or it gets less fresh. Yep. Then in 1913 the Radford State Normal School came through. What is that? That is a women's college. They used to be all the time normal school No, it's a normal school Jesus. What do you think? Okay, I don't know. I don't know why you want any specific shit. Yeah, just a Basic curriculum. I don't know. It was a woman's normal It was a woman's college and then it became Radford College and then in 79 it became Radford University.

So the college helped too that brings more people in always when there's a college. And then in the 40s, World War II times, the military decided to build a manufacturing plant for gunpowder and ammunition here as well. So yeah, called the Arsenal and that's people worked there for decades after that really Yeah, like this happened in the 80s and during the trial a lot of the jurors like four or five of the jurors worked at the Arsenal so Pressing bullets all day. Oh, yeah, I mean, I guess the military always needs bullets. I mean they got a house Yeah, those are key. Yeah, even just to practice with you need something. That's like a basketball team needs basketballs, you know Yeah, you got you got a shoe to something in the game you

probably need more for practice I would think you know just like yeah yeah you're right I'll bet they fire more in practice than they do at people you go to a basketball practice there's like 14 balls dribble dribble it around the game there's one ball you know just constantly coming off the rim constantly constantly yeah so reviews of this town let's find out what people think because we don't know anything about it. All we know is there's a college here So this is like whoever wrote this I don't know if they're selling real estate in this town or what but they love it five stars They literally say I love Radford. That's the first line. I'm a student here in my third year

I wasn't always going to come to Radford as I am the first generation college graduate from my family. We come from a small town where everyone seems to just stay. It's a barefoot and pregnant kind of town, really. Jesus. That's where she comes from. Bleak. Bleak. I was engaged at 19 and ended up having an abusive relation by 21. This is a town review. This has nothing to do with this town.

She's fascinating, though. I want to know more, but I mean, This is a town review. This has nothing to do with this town. She's fascinating though. I want to know more, but I mean this is a strange... Now I read everything about her. Mitch.com is a weird place to put this information is what I'm getting at as opposed to a therapist. She is fun to sit on a bar stool next to. Wow, I guess so. At 22 I decided I was going to move away, overcome the eating disorder I had developed and apply to Radford University. She is.

Holy shit, let's hear about her drug problem in a little while. I can't wait. Fuck yeah. She's going to be like, I used to do meth and blow strangers. It was terrible. That's going to be coming up here. She gets up from the barstool several times to go puke. Poor thing.

I came here for the sole purpose of getting my degree and leaving but Radford captured my heart. It does a bit more every day to be honest. Whether it's the kind spirit around Christmas, the golden canopy of leaves in the fall or the sweet smell of flowers on my run by Bissett Park, I fall for it each day. This is the kind of small town I would never want to leave. I have never met someone who didn't feel even a little like I do about Radford, Virginia. Wow. Well, I want it. Well, let's talk about people who don't feel that way at all because she could have just she could have just scrolled more where she was putting this review. She was in plenty of

people. She graduated college and then moved here. And stayed, well she moved there for college and just didn't leave. She moved here at 22 to go to grad school at the college. That's amazing. Yeah, a lot of people stay where they are in college though. That's very cool. Yeah, they live in Poughkeepsie and there's tons of people who went to Vassar and then liked it and stayed there because it's pretty. So two stars here.

The campus gets an email almost every two weeks describing some kind of attack on another person. Yeah, it's a college. And there was wasn't there a really bad attack there? Jesus. What every college it's colleges are just notorious. I carry mace with me in my backpack in case of a predator. It sounds like that could be like a like an opossum or like a raccoon comes up. It's a predator. Anything. People. Sharks.

Sharks. And always have to have someone pick me up or walk me back to my apartment as soon as it gets dark. I don't even like walking alone in daylight with no one around. Wow. There are blue emergency phones, but if I have to dial the number first to get the police, I wouldn't have time and I would be taken slash dead. Jesus Christ. How fast are they snatching folks?

This person is just, she's already, I'm on the floor, I'm bleeding out. That's all there is to it. I give up. She wrote herself off. Yeah, this is really a fatalist attitude about the whole thing. I mean, it's good to have your head on a swivel and be careful, but she's dead already. If this ends before it... If one posted, there's an unfinished word, I'm dead.

I'm dead. That's it. One star. I've lived in this town for several years and in all honesty, I hate it with a passion. With a passion? With a passion. So the first person loved it and this person hates it with a passion. I mean the school staff suck at their jobs.

Suck, suck, man. And the kids in the school are even worse. Yeah, this is a child. I would not recommend you let your kids go to school here. I'm currently on my second year of high school here and I've been harassed on a daily basis, as have my friends. Really? Don't say for what, just maybe they're,

well maybe you're a dork. Have you considered that? I don't know. Just kidding. Have you considered changing clothes? Yeah, I don't know. Maybe reinvent yourself. You know what I'm saying? Get a crazy hairdo.

Put on some fucking cow play boots, man. Do you consider dressing all black and just kind of scaring people? That works too sometimes. Walk around with hand wraps. Yeah, people will just- Like you're ready to fight. People won't want to ask. They'll just avoid you. No. Walk around with hand wraps. Yeah, people will just... Like you're ready to fight. People won't want to ask. They'll just avoid you.

So I don't know. Wear some Muay Thai shorts to school. Check that out. Then you just look like a douchebag. Yeah, but they might not want to fight. No. Rub on your ear till it cauliflowers up. There you go.

Yeah, fake a cauliflower ear. They'll leave you alone. Yeah, fake a cauliflower ear. If you're willing to start, that's all it takes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you still might be terrible, but no one knows that yet. Yeah, they don't know until they start the fight. They can't tell.

How are they going to fucking know? So most of the places are disgusting and probably most likely about to collapse on themselves. What? What does that mean? The whole town needs to be condemned apparently from a structural standpoint. All the buildings are weak. Yeah, they got weak buildings over there. They're very weak structures people 16,205 Okay, and a vast majority of them I imagine are in the college a lot of yeah the median age here is 23.6

So it seems like everybody's in the car. Yes. It's only 25% married, which it's usually 50% married. 22 and 1 half percent have children but are single, though. So they're still having some kids. Some accidents happen. The race of this town, 83.3% white, 9.3% black, 1.6% Asian, 2.9% Hispanic. And religion here, it's lower because it's younger people. 38.6% religious.

And it's spread around pretty good because these 38.6% religious and it's spread around pretty good because these people are they're from all sorts of different places Pentecostal actually is the number one religion here what Pentecostal yeah so I don't know median household income here is 44,360 which is way less than the national average to be expected because it's college so cost of living out of a hundred it's 83 so not too bad Median home cost here two hundred twenty three thousand eight hundred dollars, which isn't but they're weak bad They're weak. That's I mean well. That's why they're it's not that expensive. They're gonna fall down bad trusses. No no inspections This is a no inspection town

So if we've convinced you damn it it, you can't be anywhere else but Radford, Virginia. We have for you the Radford, Virginia real estate report. The average two bedroom rental here goes for about $880. So that's pretty good. You got probably a lot of rentals with the college kids, I would think. If here's a house, three-bedroom, one bath, 939 square foot. Jesus. It looks like it possibly could collapse at any time, actually.

It's so small. It's a small place and it shows no pictures of the inside. The outside looks old and dirty and possibly if you could just push it over. So come have a look. Yeah, we got a three little pig situation going on with this fucking thing. Not great. 139,900 bucks. Wow, that's steep.

That's a little steep for that. I don't trust anything where the inside isn't even... They don't even take pictures of it. Not even going to mention it. We'll leave that out. There's an inside. Whoa. Here's a three bedroom three bath so t-bowl for each and every beehole here. Yeah. 2160 square feet. It's on nine acres. Okay. Oh my that's very nice. Yeah nine acres. That's a lot. Real nice. It's

a nice house. It's got a nice like garden around there. Inside it could use some updating. It's a nice house. It's got a nice like garden around there inside. It could use some updating. It's got like, you know, two different kinds of older looking tiles that run into each other. Oh shit like that. Older house stuff. Carpet that you could just want to rank and yank right out of there. But decent still. Four hundred ninety five thousand bucks for that. Nine acres, nine acres, I think, is the selling point there. And then here's a five-bedroom four bath

4010 square feet Okay, it's one of those like brick. That's you know, I'm sure the not real brick just a brick facade Fucking McMansions. It's that's all it is. It's the inside is exactly what you'd see and like if you watch house hunters It's every house. They look at it's nothing special kind of boring Yeah, meh, yeah those same shaped windows, you know, they all have $879,900 for that thing. How many acres? None? None.

It's like a half acre. This is bullshit. It's a no acre. Yeah, if that's on nine acres, then we're talking, but no, otherwise. Things to do, here we go, the Radford Highlanders Festival. Yeah. It's got a shit, is what that is. Oh, is it? Things to do, here we go, the Radford Highlanders Festival. Yeah. Scott of shit is what that is.

Oh, is it? Yeah, drinking and fighting type shit here, yeah. Fuck. Yeah, the Highlanders are the Scots, and so the pictures of the festival on the website, it's all... A lot of face paint. It's a lot of like burly guys in kilts is what you're going to see. Okay, yeah.

Dudes that will kick your ass. See, that's who I look out for fuck a guy in movie tie shorts just because you went to Kohl's and bought a pair of shorts I'm not afraid of you but if you're walking around and you're like beefy and you're like frozen balls yeah you're like I and you got booze in your beard and a skin a kilt on I'm not fighting you at that point you're chunks of peas you don't even have underwear on yeah you got Shepardds pie chunks in your yeah He bends over to throw up and you see his asshole, that's a tough guy, you know fuck with that guy

He's got carrots and peas and it's they've been chewed up, but they're still in there. That's crazy the peas are whole Yeah, the peas are just like they're still in there. That's crazy the peas are whole yeah They're all still they just fell out of the fork They got bite marks at him for sure so they have the famed heavyweight games Okay, the famed heavyweight Game they don't say who knows what they did. That's all they say that's it heavyweight games You're supposed to know what that is. I think they throw like big fucking you know That's it heavyweight games you're supposed to know what that is I think they throw like big fucking you know Hammers and axes and shit. I think it's just like crazy Braveheart shit that they're probably probably yeah weird I think there's a Brit killing competition whoever kills the most

Englishman to kill yeah, whoever kills the most Englishman. I think when something I'm not sure how it works They're shepherding just gonna sheep herding, I'm gonna show you that. Live entertainment which we'll talk about, vendors, festivals, food, the sheep and duck herding as well. You have to herd ducks. Oh and duck. And we can herd ducks. Oh yeah you did. You've been to a fucking park with a bag of fucking bread before. That's the best way to do it. You just throw it on the ground and you go here they are.

Stay right here. That's all of them. They'll stay there for a while. That's all of them. Then my grandmother comes and stuffs one in the trunk. They're free. They're free. Um, one of the bands is called S.Y.R.

Sir, or Seer, or Sire? Sire. I'll bet it's Sire. Sire. We're Sire! We're gonna play for ya! Hold on, I have to throw up. Look at me ball bag. Look at the ball bag. I'll bet it's sire. We're sire! We're gonna play for ya! Hold on, I have to throw up.

Look at me ball bag. Look at the back of me ball bag while I puke! He just sings and spits peas and carrots into the mic. Oh man, it's covered in chunks of fucking shepherd pie visceral. It's a Scottish Gallagher.

It's like a Gallagher show at the end. It's just spread out everywhere. Oh Man, and there's also a band called albanac Yeah, all the knack all the knack Floyd historic dancer will be there Floyd one guy. I don't like me there. He's an old guy who dances One says Diddyville Aaron Marshall and Carl Jones Diddyville it sounds like a lot like Diddy Diddleville the panjammers will be there. That's the what panjammers Pan in the panhandle there. Yeah, and then Marshall page Okay. Yeah, he's like maybe people think we said Marshall Tucker and we'll show off Marshall Chuck Marshall Tucker and Jimmy Page songs

I'll do this. It's all it is Fuck yeah, and kinfolk with two ends Yeah, we'll be there and also the the Claire Paul it will be there for a highland dancing workshop Claire Paul it Paul it P OLL IT palette So there's that and then also if you're done with that and you've had it go to the st. Albans sanatorium For it's like a ghost tour thing go to an old mental hospital where you know, it's creepy you get the shit scared out of you. Yeah. Yeah. Go see historic mental health issues. That's fun. They said broken toys litter the floor while old wheelchairs rust in corners beneath grimy peeling walls. The whole building has a

dark eerie air to it making any visitor aware they're treading on grounds sullied by decades of horror. Yeah, let's go dance around in there. It sounds great. A lot of fun. Historic mental health issues where they were taken advantage of and treated horribly. Come wander around. Yeah. Oh, there's going to be evil shit in here.

Come on. Fuck you. I bet it costs money too. Great. I'm not going there ever. Oh yeah. And they talk about- I didn't do it to you guys.

Whatever happened. They talk about what happened. Vulnerable patients were subjected to cruel and you know inhumane Experimental treatments which often left them permanently disabled or resulted in death from lobotomies or insulin induced comas Others were shocked via electroconvulsive therapy Others were completely wrapped mummy style and towels drenched with cold ice water are left to soak soak in tubs for days at a time Come wander around. Come, come. What, you outta your fucking mind?

There's a snack bar. We got Hebrew national hot dogs, they're good. All beef. Oh my God. Wow, crime rate, what we're interested in here. Property crime just below average, which is odd for a college town, usually it's high in a college town, because you've got the, you know, piss the piss in the streets and stuff like that.

Then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course assault, the Mount Rushmore of crime, is above the average. Really? Yes, which is, watch out kids. It's fucking, man, maybe those blue phones do need an update, just a 911 button. That's a rare occurrence and it's true.

Yeah it's really weird so that said let's talk about some murder here. Oh boy is this wild stuff. So first let's talk about a young lady. Okay Gina Renee Hall is her name. She's born in 1962 and we're gonna catch up with her in her freshman year of college but we'll talk a little bit about where she's from. She's from Coburn, C-O-E-B-U-R-N, Coburn, which is a tiny town in the mountains in the western part of Virginia over there. So it's in Wise County. They say it's the heart of coal country and it's right near the

borders of Kentucky and Tennessee as well over there so that's like the heart of Appalachia is what that is that's you know coal mountain country yeah if you saw like American Hollow this is like near where that is type of shit so around 2,000 people usually in there everybody knows each other very safe, you know. It's 30 years behind the rest of the country basically, back then especially without the internet. Now you can kind of, it's a little easier to catch up now, but back then, you know, it's a little harder. They didn't even know that James Coburn existed. No idea. Hey, look at that, look at us. That guy's named after us. So Gina Her sister her sister's name is

Delana, which is so hard D L a na What both again? Yeah, both me and Alison both thought it was a typo and it had to be Diana. No, it's not It's Delana Delana, but with no there's no apostrophe. No, and the letters there Don't follow each other in the beginning of a word You can go deadlock because those are like two separate things, but the D can't flow to the L that shit doesn't work No, it's if you get a crossword puzzle and there's a D. You're pretty sure the next fucking letter is an L You know what I mean? You know that for a fact. It's like P and H. It's so strange.

So she says about her sister, she's her older sister, Delana. Delana says, Gina was such a respectful, sweet girl growing up. When I say she never got in trouble, I mean she never got in trouble ever. She was every parent's dream child. And there's kind of a reason for that, too. Gina has an accident at two years old where she's wearing pajamas.

And gets too close to a gas stove and is horribly burned when she catch completely lights a flame at two years old. Yeah, remember those footy pajamas? They were so flammable. Well, that's before like everything had to be fire retardant for kids too. So yeah, we were just little fucking cotton balls waiting to go right into flames

I mean, yeah, it's all we were if a house caught on fire The kid would just burn to cinder in two seconds. Yeah, what was in there was fucking terrifying Lee. So she catches on fire She they thought she was gonna die. Yeah those pajamas just weld to your skin. Oh, yeah, it gets really bad It says she's in the hospital for months and months afterwards. Oh my god, the poor thing. They said that 75% of young patients in her exact condition would have died from shock or sepsis, so she's very lucky. And she said that everyone was shocked.

She went to the Charlotte Vills University of Virginia Medical Center burn unit. And they said she was like an inspiration to everybody there, because I just think a horribly burned two year old would be, you know, spectacle. Yeah, that's tough to, A, look at, and B, not root for. What kind of fucking monster are you

to not root for that kid? No shit. There was a show there where everybody kind of, oh, it was the Sopranos, when Tony was fucking nearly dead, there was a little girl where everybody kind of stopped. Oh, it was the Sopranos when Tony was fucking nearly dead. There was a little girl that was burned in the fucking unit and everybody was like, whoa, like everybody stopped. Even the gangsters were like, oh shit, that's fucked up.

You can't see that and just fucking walk away. No, I mean, it's a little girl. So she finally came home from the hospital and the whole town, she was like the star of the town. Everybody, there were signs up, you know, welcome home Gina, and they drove whole town she was like the star of the town everybody there were signs up you know welcome home Gina and they drove home it was a nice thing her sister said everybody in town provided so much love and support for Gina as she recovered from her burns Gina was truly Coburn's girl people seemed to really empathize with with what she had been through and

admired how hard she fought to recover and she had a wonderful little attitude. She never felt sorry for herself. So that's the type of kid who's not going to get in trouble because she's definitely going to feel like she's letting everybody down. Now she feels like she owes people shit. I think I would anyway. So she had tons of skin grafts. Oh, Christ, they hurt so bad.

Tons of them. She had lots of them permanent scars on her right side on her abdomen her upper right arm and her right thigh There's a lot of big scarring Especially her right arm from her shoulder down to her elbow her right leg from her upper thigh down to her knee But her worst scarring was along her torso Which above from above her right breast to below her waistline was just very, very badly scarred and not good. Melted.

Yeah. It's crazy. That scar is like a smear of skin. It's so crazy what it does. It's Freddy Krueger. I mean, that's a burn person. It creates like pockets in there. It's so weird.

I had a friend that was burned so hardly I thought he was gonna die and that was I mean the skin grafts. It was not pretty it was ugly I mean, it's not gonna be alive, but it's fucking gross at the same time So at the same time too, they said surgical Excisions also had left an indentation over an inch deep running along the right side of her chest down to her abdomen So she's got like one of the good skin that they took. Yeah. Big deep scars down there. So it's hard. So she would dress very conservatively even in the summer. She'd wear sleeves and yeah Well in the summer too that that sun hurts on the scars on top

But she did also didn't want anybody to see it. Even if it was you know,, sure. Yeah, even if it was, you know, she would always do that. She wore long sleeves and pants, you know, with tights underneath even in the sun. If you're listening to this podcast, then chances are good you are a fan of the Strange, Dark, and Mysterious. And if that's the case, then I've got some good news. We just launched a brand new Strange, Dark, and Mysterious podcast called Mr. Ballin's Medical Mysteries. And as the name suggests, it's a show about medical mysteries, a genre that many fans

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Strange Dark and Mysterious. And if that's the case, then I've got some good news. We just launched a brand new strange, dark and mysterious podcast called Mr. Bolland's Medical Mysteries. And as the name suggests, it's a show about medical mysteries, a genre that many fans have been asking us to dive into for years. And we finally decided to take the plunge and the show is awesome. In this free weekly show, we explore bizarre, unheard-of diseases, strange medical mishaps, unexplainable deaths, and everything in between. Each story is totally true and totally terrifying. Go follow Mr. Bolland's Medical Mysteries wherever you get your podcasts, and if you're a Prime member, you can listen early and ad-free on Amazon Music. early and ad free on Amazon Music.

So she was very much gym class. She had tights on always that sort of thing because that would cover her up. So, and she's a pretty girl too. That's the other thing. She's like five feet tall, 105 pounds, cute, you know, attractive. If you're looking at her clothing and just looking at her in clothes,

there's no way you can tell that she's got burns all over her, but she knows and she's pretty self-conscious about it too. She said that she would cover herself in towels at the beach until she literally got to the water and then she'd like drop it right by the water and get right in so no one would see her. Yeah. So she's self-concious. I mean, Jesus Christ, it's hard enough being a teenage fucking girl.

Like I mean, you're self-conscious about everything anyway. If your body is half covered in scars that'll literally make people fucking nauseous, that's hard. Most girls are sensitive about the shape of the body, let alone the texture of it. They don't want to go outside if they have pimples. Like, never mind, your whole body is scarred, so it's hard. Her sister said, quote, she could not have handled the emotional stress of having a physical relationship with somebody Meaning a guy when she's a teenager and she never put herself in that situation

Really? Yeah It's it's rough. She said when she was 10 She had to go back to the hospital for more skin grafts on her abdomen Because of the grafted skins inability grow, to stretch as she grew. Because your abdomen grows more than your arms, so it's hard. It's really hard for her. So she was really worried about

whether she'd ever be able to, what if she became pregnant someday? Oh, then how's that stomach gonna grow? That's what I mean, would this skin just explode? Like she was very worried about that. So she didn't wanna be pregnant at any time either She was voted most popular in high school. How about that of the graduating class of 1979? Everybody liked her. Yeah

One person said she had a lot going for for positive energy enthusiastic. She's brighten up your day She did a shitload of activities. This is exhausting. Fucking exhausting. Oh boy. Tons of shit. She played tennis, golf, did gymnastics, like in high school on the team. In tennis, she advanced to the state championship her senior year in high school. So she's like really good at all these sports too. She had tons of friends that are teammates and all that sort of thing. People like working with her as a doubles person in tennis. She did great. So like I said, her self-consciousness kept her from being in any kind of romantic relationships in high school, though. Her sister said she was extremely concerned about how her scars would play with

a guy. He said she could not have handled the emotional stress of a physical relationship there. Yeah, she just kept saying it. So she said she'd only dated on one occasion. She said her high school prom was one of the times. Most of her dates were just friends. Most of the time they were boys she played tennis with. They were just friends and they wouldn't go any further. And she said, she only dated, her sister said she only dated like good looking boys who were like good athletes though. She wouldn't date any bums. Yeah. But she liked an athletic guy. That was what she's into. She's little, like I said, five foot. She's 107 pounds and good with her family, things like that.

She taught gymnastics and tap dancing as well. Really? Yes, she does that during. In addition to all those sports, she has time to teach classes. Her family was real active at church too, where she led a Bible study group and taught Sunday school classes. How many hours are in this chick's day? She doesn't take a day off. This is fucking crazy. More than Jesus. It's so much. She's like Jesus was

a fucking slacker. First of all, let me tell you something. Taking a Sunday off. Sunday my ass. Sunday is I work twice as hard. That's what I do. So I do two things. Yeah. I work a double for Christ's sake. That's how I get down. I pop a double off on Sunday and I'm ready to fucking roll. Teach the kids tap dance and a double off on Sunday and I'm ready to fucking roll teach the kids tap dance and teach Them about the Lord and I'm in here we go. So she throughout school She also by the way, she had jobs besides the teaching too She works at the movie theater in the town to a day job. Yes She worked the ticket booth and the concern and the concession stand

So in addition to that she'd sell you a ticket and then you'd walk in and she'd be standing behind the concession stand with a different hat on Offering you popcorn And then she'd tap dance it to your theater for you, this is fucking crazy And then tear your stuff when you walked in the theater Yeah, yeah Where the fuck did you come from? And then you sit down it starts and says you know this pictures and all that and then she's starring in it too You're like wow fuck what is up with this chick?

and all that, and then she's starring in it too. You're like, wow, fuck, what is up with this chick? A film by her, by fucking, oh my god, that is crazy. So she worked there, the owner of the theater, Jeff Kaiser, said she was impressed, he was very impressed with her work ethic and interpersonal skills and the way she dealt with customers. She was very good, very mature for her age, and they said anytime she was on breaks from college

He said she was welcome to come on back and work some shifts here So he said even Thanksgiving come home for Thanksgiving you want to work Friday night get come on in I'll pay you so he said everyone. I know who knew Gina thoroughly thought she was great. She got along with everybody She was always congenial with customers. She's the type of person that I didn't have to tell to do something. She knew it beforehand. She's just a great person. Yeah. She's so nice. Even she found time in all of the shit she's doing. Found the time she had a little brother and he was nine when she graduated high school. She'd get her paycheck from the movie theater and she'd take him to buy comic books and stuff

She'd buy him comic books and a soda at the downtown drugstore there find time to You have a little a little big sister date with her brother, which is cute as shit You can't be doing all this charity outside the home if you're not doing some inside Hey, take care of the kid dammit and teach him to tap dance when you're done with it. She's aware She knows so her first semester of college was the fall of 79 and she wanted she went to Emory and Henry College Which is a very small school about an hour from Coburn only a thousand kids go there. It's a very small school That's like less than half the size of the high school. I went to so for college. It's very small She wanted to go there because it was close to home, and it was small and she's you know incrementally

Branching out so after the fall semester she decided that it was a little too small Yeah, I'd like to go to Radford University for the spring of 1980 because her sister Delana went there just graduated and now was returning for graduate school to pursue her masters in education She's staying at Radford, so she's, fuck it, I'm gonna go there and stay with her. Yeah, she's like, I have room with my sister. Yeah, she's gonna be there for four years, so I may as well be there for the next three, sure.

What the hell, why not? Yeah, so she did, and you know, Gina, her major was nursing, which Radford had a strong program for, and it was about five times bigger than her other school, more socially, you know, stuff going on, a little more popping off in Radford had a strong program for and it was about five times bigger than her other school. More socially you know stuff going on a little more popping off in Radford than in the small town she was from. So by 1980 she's a freshman continuing her education at Radford. She lives in Radford with Delana and they were also even going to take summer courses this year as well

in 1980. So they got done with the semester and they were going to do summer courses. That's par for Gina's course. Yep. She's known as, someone describes her as very beautiful, well-dressed, pleasant, soft-spoken and popular with her peers as well as with older people. Just basically everybody. Just everyone likes her. Yeah. You could have just said, she's just a good chick. Everyone likes her. Everybody likes her. Yeah, you could have just said she's just good chick. Everyone likes her

That's that's good She didn't use didn't drink very often Didn't use drugs wasn't known to smoke or use drugs or anything like that had no Never had to go, you know to therapy or for anything like that I never had any problems as a kid growing up and which is shocking because you would think with all the body stuff There'd be something there, but she was always had a good spirit about it. Never like, you know, took off for two days with her friends without permission or anything like that.

Everyone said she was never depressed ever, always happy and upbeat. She's so busy, you wouldn't have time to be depressed. Yeah, how do you even get, how do you even think about yourself and how you're feeling? Is this busy? When I'm away from tap dancing lessons to the movie theater, like when are you gonna do that? think about yourself and how you're feeling. Is this busy? When? On the way from tap dancing lessons to the movie theater?

Like, when are you going to do that? So, she's a college student and on Saturday, June 28th, 1980, they just got finished with their finals, both of them, Delana and Gina. And they've been taking summer midterm exams during this week from the 22nd to the 28th of June and This is the day on Saturday Gina finished her last exam and she's done with the year Yahtzee last day of fuck schools out Yes, she's fucking absolutely no books flying in the air. Fuck. Yeah shit Yeah, she was in a great mood and she just wanted to party it up tonight

She wanted to go out dancing at the Marriott in Blacksburg. That's where the hot spot is. At the Marriott? At the Marriott. The Marriott's got a bar. What's happening? At the Marriott. Marriott. Going to party at the Marriott in Blacksburg, by the way.

Jesus, yeah. That's where she's going. So she's jacked about it too. That is the hot spot. They got like a club there. Going to the Marriott. Going to the Marriott, baby. Hell yeah. Jesus. So she wants Delana to go with her,

but Delana said she's too tired of all the tests and she's been studying. I don't have enough energy for the Marriott. Yeah, the Marriott sounds well beyond my energy level here. But the Marriott, man, maybe it was the Hyatt I could consider it, but not the Marriott. I won't go there. That's crazy I know some shit's gonna happen there. It's too much. So Gina takes a shower puts on her makeup She gets dressed she puts on a purple dance skin body suit You know one of those like yeah, you know those are like a one-piece bathing suit

With a V in the back, a white high-waisted straight legged Bobby Brooks pants and a white Wrangler jacket. That's some 80s. That's a 1980s. A white jean jacket is some very 1980s. And a purple bodysuit. Confidently mid-cycle, go to the Marriott.

Fuck yeah. Let's do this. What the hell is she? Fucking Suzanne Summers is what she is. Yeah, give her a thigh master, she can move some units. You know what I mean? So, and then she had a pair of velvety purple shoes as well. Like purple velvety shoes. She covered up all her scars and burns

and everything like that. Fuck, that's an outfit. That's an outfit, yeah. She's going out, this is going out tonight, type shit. She's not kidding. She said, how do I look? Her sister said, you look great. I love the way the shoes match your purple top.

You look hot. And a white jacket poppin' on that purple, hell yeah. So she had almost left, but then she forgot her ankle bracelet and said, I can't go dancing without my ankle bracelet. Okay. Need that. It's a gold bracelet, gold ankle, ankle with two interlocking gold hearts on

it. Okay. So that's, that's her bracelet here. And she said, that's my dancing ankle. I can't leave without that. So she let her sister, Delana, lends her her car to go out. It is a 1975 Brown Chevy Monte Carlo. My Christ, that's a big car.

That is a big old shit boat, is what that is. Oh, man. Eight miles to the gallon. Yeah. Not even fast, just a big shit box. 25 feet of trunk and hood. It's so much trunk and hood. Yeah.

You got to really know how to drive that thing. You know where your clearances are. You got to swing that front end around. Man. Yeah. You want to turn into a parking spot, you start turning real early. About four or five spaces early. You got to really get it going.

It's like a boat. It's not just going to turn into the space. You got to get it started well ahead of time drifting there. So she had to move the seat way, way up. Her sister is about four or five inches taller than her. Delana is. So when she gets in her car, she always has to pull it five feet tall.

If you've ever driven with someone five feet tall, Sara's five foot one. So when I go to drive her car, I have to, it's like 30 seconds of meh on the button with the seat moving back until I can even get in it comfortably. But you're right, and you're doing that while standing on the fucking pavement. Yeah. Oh, I can't, I couldn't get in. Fuck no.

This would be impossible. You can't do it. I have to put it all the way back and then down. It's got to go down some too. Okay, there we go. Seeing the way a tiny person drives, sometimes when you open the door you just go, you have to look around and be like, who gets in this? How? How do you do it? And if you hit something, the airbag would just be wearing it. Oh God!

It would fucking engulf your head. It would explode me head It's so Dangerous no room for that thing to get to explain no fuck So she had to you know do that her sister couldn't even get behind the wheel until she moved the seat back When she would get in it after Gina drove it so she leaves about 10 p.m.. So she's going out for some That's a Marriott type of time to leave right there. Yeah, it's a very nice shit tonight I'm getting you leave the house at 10 p.m. Look fresh. You're you're getting you're you're having a night You're getting fucked up tonight. You're going to dance. So

She does this This her sister said this is the only time she ever remembers Gina ever going out socially by herself She never went out by herself ever. She said it was either with her or with some friends or something like that. She never just said, I don't give a fuck, I don't care if I'm not going with anybody, I'm driving there and I'm going dancing tonight. This is how well she did on those finals.

Good for her. Well, she's feeling confident and she's feeling like she can get out there. You know what I mean? So she didn't even, the sister said she didn't even think that Gina was meeting anyone she knew at the mariage. It's just, she knew that was where the club would be popping and she could fucking get some dancing

and that was it. So when she's there, we'll talk about this, she's gonna meet a young man there. A few years older than her, he's about nine years older than her actually, Steven Madison Epperly. E-P-P-E-R-L-Y, Epperly. So he's born 1953 and everyone said, great first impression guy. I mean, he's a big athletic, very in good shape,

works out all the time, type of guy, real square jawed, short hair, type of guy, real square jawed, you know, short hair, firm look, firm handshake and a, you know, look you right in the eye kind of cat, you know what I mean? And green eyes and you know, just very nice looking kid and everybody likes him. So he's about six foot tall, 200 pounds with muscle, 200 pounds and he works out constantly. So he's one of those guys here. He was from right, he's from Radford, he's a Radford guy. His family's pretty working class, lot of kids in a small house type of thing. His family's been here, he's the third generation

of his family to grow up here in Radford. So his father's a World War II veteran. Is that right? Yeah, and he works at the arsenal there and he worked in the janitorial department of the powder plant as a foreman. So, so he's the boss of the shit cleaners, the boss of the shit cleaners and the, I guess you sweep powder sweepers. I'm going to call it. Toilet refillers. It was some dangerous shit. I guess they said

to do that around there because they had to clean the, they had to clean the work stations too and shit like that. He would take the boys, he's got brothers, he's got an older brother and sister and a younger brother, Stephen does, and his dad would take them hunting and he loved to hunt and fish and be outdoors and all that kind of shit. Backwards kind of guy. Into all that. So his mother was a housewife, stayed at home, and she's very religious, at the very active at the Baptist Church, where all the kids had to go mandatory attendance

every Sunday. Yep. One of the friends said all of the neighborhood kids thought the world of Mrs. Epperly, meaning the mom, she was like a second mom to so many of the boys she grew up with. She was a good mother and just a lovely person. So in elementary school, Stephen is known by the teachers as a high energy boy, quote unquote, and a handful. He's got like ADHD, but in the 60s, they just said handful. Yeah, yeah. A lot of energy.

He won't sit down. That's it. Yep. And he had difficulty focusing and paying attention, easily distracted, and his parents just thought, his mom just said, he's all boy. That's all it is. What? He wants to be out running around and, you know, scaring up game, you know, like a fucking,

like a hunting dog. He's got a lot of energy. He's a lot, but you can't help it, it's the dick. He's like a German short-haired pointer. He just needs to get out there and sniff things you know goes yeah, so all boy his Energy, but the thing that was good is they said let's put him in sports Which is good if the kids problem is is if he's energetic and just a spaz that's not gonna work But no if you could actually be good at sports this will work

And it does wrangle him and point them in a direction shit Yeah, he plays baseball basketball football tennis track. He does everything just just the deal all year round something to keep him busy and get His energy out but footballs his favorite loves football loves the physical contact And he's the kid that hits the hardest of all the other kids really throws his body into shit and just destroys kids. And so he's really good in football at high school there. He graduates from Radford High in 71 and he made the all district team at defensive end. Oh, yeah. On offense, he played split end and was the team's leading receiver his senior year as well. Yeah. And

he also set a school record in the half mile for the track team as well. Wow, half mile. He's a real fucking athletic guy. They said that he could always push through the pain barrier. In class, he was kind of shit. They said he wasn't dumb, but he barely had a C average. They said he was respectful. he'd fuck off sometimes,

he was kinda hyper so he'd misbehave sometimes. Sure, sounds like when the objective is retain information and then recall it, that's tough, but when the objective is tackle that man, oh I got you Cubs. Yeah, and he just doesn't care about it either. He likes football more and this is hard for him, and a lot of times kids don't like doing shit

that's hard for them. Yeah, yeah. And that's, I think too, that doesn't help either and he's actually has a hard time, right? Chemically doing this too when the brain is not you can't just run with the brain, you know It's it's things that has to do he pretty much had to get seized to be able to stay on the football team Yeah, I think and that was all he was trying to get basically James, you're a student athlete, but you're student first! You're student first, he's like, no, no, no, no, no. This is a... Listen, I'll do my best.

Not in football, come on. What are we talking about here? I'll do what I got. Yeah, Jesus Christ. So an old teammate called him, said he had a screw loose, and said that he was always flying off the handle as well. He had a crazy fucking temper. Crazy temper. I don't know what it is, but I think later on there's a possibility that some steroids

are involved here because he starts really going fucking batshit with things. Raging out of nowhere? Yeah, just way more than you should or way more than it was normal. So one of a couple of these instances, when he was 18 he got in an argument at home with his younger sister, his sister, who was 15, named Jane. Oh, wow.

He hit her and then his mother came over and tried to break it up because you know, you don't want your son hitting your daughter like that. And he became violent and started beating up his mom as well. Is that right? Beat up his sister and his mom. So mom called the cops to the house and he was arrested and processed for domestic assault. Yeah you can't do that.

But within an hour because it's like 1969 or some shit 1970 within hour, the mom had talked the cops into just dropping the whole thing and leaving it all on. Just nevermind. Sorry. There I scared him. That should be good. He's 18. He's not nine.

You know what I mean? Yeah. So that kid straight. Yeah. His coach told him his best option would be to go to a two year junior college for football to truck because he's, he's not big enough to you know none of the big colleges are gonna pick up a six foot two hundred pound defensive end so very common not fast enough really to be an offensive player in college so you

got to build yourself up he said there you can bulk up and then transfer to a bigger school later on you can mature you know your body can mature so he does that he goes to Ferrum junior college and A couple of his friends go there with him, and he ends up going there to play football and also fighting a lot Really yeah, he did a lot here. He When he graduates from high school right away He really starts fighting a lot and starts getting very aggressive with women. Really?

Yeah, a friend of his said Steve would get into a fight and turn into an absolute lunatic, a raging animal. It would take three or four guys to pull him off the other guy. What the shit? It was fucking nuts. Other times his friend said, this is a teammate, quote, Steve and I would sometimes double date with girls or group of us guys would go Out with with all of our dates together group dating

Yeah, kids do he said Steve and his date always seemed to get along well nothing out of the ordinary But then the next day he we would hear god-awful stories from the girls about how the at the end of the night Steve had Forced himself physically on his date. You know, raping and such. But in 1971, they call it forced himself on. Called it unwanted attention. Yeah, it was wild. It was like, well, I mean, I did go on a date with him, people would say back then, which was, you know,

crazy shit. So he said, the first time it happened, we kind of gave him the benefit of the doubt. But the second time, word got around pretty quick and he was excluded Excluded from the groups after that really don't bring the rapist with you. We're not gonna It's hard to say oh cool. Yeah, you got a friend for my friend. How about for my rapist friend anybody? He can rape anybody like a red anybody like on the karate team. Maybe she can maybe fend him off possibly

Maybe somebody wearing movie tie shorts with cauliflower ears the karate team maybe she can maybe fend him off possibly maybe somebody wearing Muay Thai shorts with cauliflower ears some maybe possibly that's who shows up for his dates he'll do he'll delete himself from these dates I got a yeah yes no shit so never mind this is gonna be rough so more temper stories here a teammate of his who named mark Burton worked with him Also at a part-time job in the college cafeteria He says quote one morning Epperly and I are working the breakfast shift shift in the cafeteria It's like 7 a.m. People are half asleep and students are quietly eating breakfast

I hear this loud ruckus and look up to see a student running across the cafeteria With Epperly sprinting after him, yelling and chasing him. That's why you're at a Juco, because if you could catch him, you could go to a Division I school. You gotta go to a junior college because you can't even catch a kid in the cafeteria. That's the problem. He said it was obvious Epperly was trying to catch him and beat him up.

They came running past me, Epperly breathing down the guy's neck, and I was in a position where I could grab Epperly and intercept him. I was a big guy, bigger than him, so I grabbed him and managed to get him in a bear hug. I hold him so the other guy has time to get away. Jesus. Epperly is still all worked up. I turn him around and look him in the eye and say what are you thinking? You know that coach will kick you off the team if you get into a fight with a student

Yeah, but I could just tell by the look in his eyes that at that point he didn't care He just wanted to catch the guy and beat him up. I Know impulse control here And he also bulks up too by the end of that Yeah, he gets and he grows a little bit too. He's now actually six feet tall, 200 pounds, and he was only 5'11", 175 when he graduated from college, or high school. So 25 pounds to gain in a year, not even a year, that sounds like you've had some help

to me. Yeah, yeah, it seems like it. Having these rages where you're chasing some fucking biology major across the goddamn Cafeteria is insane. You can't do that. It's fucking nuts so that's how he is so he comes home to Radford for the summer after his freshman year and Hang and you know starts talking to his high school friends again And people said he came back huge and just real self-confident now bigger than ever and Ego to go with it. One of his friends is an old high school teammate said quote,

badass. When he came back from Ferum that first summer, Steve Epperly had turned into a real badass. And it seems like the simplest disagreement with someone would escalate very quickly. Once he flipped the switch, he was not turning it back. Yeah, there's bars and night clubs they'd hang out at and he was a guy that didn't want to blend in his friends said. One

teammate said Epperly always had an ego but by then it had developed into a massive ego. He said he wanted people to pay attention to him when he went out. He was real, yeah, he wants to really strut and fuckin' Peacockin'. Peacock that shit. He said he was still lifting weights regularly and definitely had the look of a college football player. Big guy, a hey look at me attitude.

Okay. And he would also keep fighting and fighting. And they said he loved, he always wanted to pick up girls at bars and parties. He was always just going out to pick up chicks. So they said he had a real reputation not only at college now, but also at home for being sexually aggressive One of his friends said quote he had the belief that if a woman went on a date with him or left a bar with him She was gonna put out for him. It was a foregone conclusion one way or the other either willingly or unwillingly

That's what a friend said of him Jesus that is disturbing So he ends up transferring to Virginia Tech to be trying to make it on the football team as a walk-on That's a pretty big football school. I mean, that's where Michael Vick went to college there. A lot of guys did It's a very big school. Yeah, it's a very big football school So and a couple of his friends too were already playing there his high school teammates were already there a few of them So he wanted to go there guy named Bill King specifically who we'll get into here in a bit but uh

They said he didn't know if he could make the squad because he's kind of small and not very fast but he said he's gonna try to do it try to be a 1975 walk-on and His tenacity in the way he threw himself at shit, the coaches loved him. He's a fucking psycho, so they love him. I mean, if you're undersized, you better be nuts in football.

Yeah, you can certainly make up for undersized with a, attitude, but be overwhelming achievement. Yeah, that's the way to do it. If you're really good at whatever you do, then size doesn't necessarily matter. And you have to have so much, put so much effort in that they, oh Jesus Christ, how do you turn this guy away? How do you tell this guy no?

He's never gonna go, he's gonna sleep outside if we fucking turn him away. He's never gonna go away. I've gotta take a nap at some point and he's gonna fucking murder me in my sleep. Okay, I guess just let him play for a while and just give him a uniform, I suppose. Seems like he likes it.

So he played in the, actually in the Virginia Tech spring game in 1975. They said also a lot of his reputation came from the fact that he would constantly go streaking through the dorms at Virginia Tech. Always nude this guy. Nude, nude guy. Which, nowadays that's, we go, ooh, that's dangerous. Nude, nude guy. Which nowadays that's we go,

oh that's dangerous, that's a red flag, that's a precursor for sexual assaults and shit like that because nowadays it is. But in the 70s streaking was considered funny. A guy running with his dick and balls flop and was considered hilarious. Look how vulnerable he is, it's so funny. You could just grab a hold of that and yank it off It was guy like water with his like arms up with his dick and balls fly. Everyone's laughing Yeah, it's considered fucking hilarious and then at some point in the 80s it wasn't considered hilarious anymore Now that man's armed now that guy has a fucking he's got us like a like a sex offender record He has to like register if he does that. So when the 75 fall season came,

he didn't see any game action. They put him on the practice squad. But still, he was like on the team. He made the team to walk on. His, he's basically, you know, Rudy but an asshole. Rapist Rudy is a good way to, maybe that's the name of this episode, rapey Rudy. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper.

In this new thriller, available exclusively on Wondry+, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro,

who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy nominee Sanaa Lathan and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Shnook is available exclusively and ad free on Wondry+.

Join Wondry+, in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. So by the end of this though, his eligibility for college football had run out. It was all run out. So you could have five years and four playing years and he was done. He'd had four playing years. He used them up in Juco so he couldn't do anything. So he is a dangerous guy. Let's

talk about some incidents he had here. April 22nd 1976. This is right kind of at the end of football here. A woman is awakened at 315 a.m. to the sound of someone outside her bedroom window which is I think every ladies, every single ladies worst nightmare probably, I think. Probably it, yeah. At Terrace of You Apartments in Blacksburg. She looked out the window and saw Steve out there and they had dated three months earlier, so she knew him.

She knows this guy, yeah. What the fuck are you doing out there? He said, let me in, I'm in trouble. I'm hiding. So she doesn't know guys are chasing him the cops are chasing him so she said fuck yeah go to the door she opened the door and he comes in and pretty much as soon as the door gets closed behind him he throws her to the floor and rapes her oh my god she knows

him and obviously knows who he is and calls the fucking police afterwards. Oh yeah. She said that when she started to scream he put his hands around her neck and was pushing pretty hard and saying don't scream or I'll kill you. This is a very dangerous person that is willing to do that. Who the fuck is 3 15 a.m. I'll go knock on this chick's window and then I'll rape her and threaten to kill him who the fuck thinks that That is crazy. He was not in trouble. Nobody was chasing him. No. He was just he was just hunting He was hunting see if you get this chick to let him in She had an infant son in the house

Sleeping in one of the bedrooms who was awakened and began crying and that's when he stopped and let her go check on the baby Basically go shut that fucking kid up so I can continue to fucking assault you this Crazy she picked up her son and just ran out of the apartment. Oh She just boomed he wasn't paying attention I guess I don't know if he was drinking or what but she took off and ran to the closest apartment She could and called the closest apartment she could, called the police and said, holy shit, come help. There's a psychopath there.

He's arrested and taken to the Montgomery County jail and charged with rape. They got him? Look at that, yeah, all done. Yeah, this should be what? Few years till he's out of prison at least, right? This is terrible. He had no money for an attorney,

and his parents though, pool pulled all their money together to get him the best lawyer they could. They got him a lawyer who was so kind of well known in the town he ended up being named a judge the next year so he's the best lawyer in town there and he told the police that the sex was consensual. And three months earlier when they dated, he said that they also had consensual sex one time. So he only had sex with this girl one time in the past. Not like even, he knew her that well. He said that time was consensual as well.

So, you know, it's both consensual, what's she talking about? So his right to a jury trial in the case was ruled on by this judge here and they, in a non-jury trial, they ended up doing this. So he waived his right to a jury trial. They do a bench trial because judges don't get overwhelmed by details. They don't get emotionally involved with shit.

The judge dismisses the rape charge due to insufficient evidence Because you know women normally run out of their apartments screaming with their kids after consensual sex banging on apartment doors saying Please call the police. That's normal He said it was a type of he said she said case that makes it very difficult for the prosecution and I don't know. So dismissed. Wow. Thank God DNA exists today. That's a crazy fuck. But again, he's a mean he's admitting that they had said I don't know. But how do you get to the truth there? Yeah. You know, I mean, how do you get to like a conviction there? Because holy shit, you had to say like five people had to be, had to witness the rape for you to get in trouble

for rape back then, it was fucking crazy. Wow. So he dodges a real bullet there, I would say. No shit. So four months later though, on August 15th, 1976, he is visiting a pool at Draper's Meadow Apartments near the Virginia Tech campus. He starts talking with a 19 year old female student

at the pool, fucking macking on her and shit. According to her, he seemed very friendly and really nice. Well yeah, so did Ted Bundy. That's what they do. He told her that he and his roommates were a few blocks away and they lived at the McDonald Street apartments a few blocks away and they're gonna be throwing a big blocks away. They lived at the McDonald Street apartments a few blocks away, and they're gonna be throwing a big party later, so, you know, he's going around

recruiting people for the party. Yeah, she said, no, no, that's okay, but he said, no, I'm telling you, it's gonna be a great party. You understand. Yeah, there'll be people you know there, I'm sure. It's gonna be awesome. You can't get booze, let us get it.

Yeah, we're gonna party, there's all sorts of good stuff here, and finally she said okay fine. Yeah, what the hell and She said she'd fun so she follows him to his apartment when they leave oh right now. Yeah, let's go We'll go to the party now. Yeah, it's starting out. That's what I was trying to grab people and round them up but he only grounds her up so She followed him home in her car where he invited her into the apartment to see his new bar and fish tank I just got a fish tank who wants to watch my fucking Tetris swim around when's the party started exactly later where's the rest of the party and she said well you know I don't know I thought

there was a party and he said oh come on come on in it's a fish tank what guy with a fish tank how How harmless can I be? Come feed some krill. Yeah, so they enter the apartment, and he slams the door and immediately grabs her by the arm and forces her onto the bed in his bedroom. Oh, god damn it. And rapes her again, and rapes this one now.

So she said, he grabbed me by the neck and strangled me, is what she said later on. I thought I thought he was going To kill me because it didn't seem like he was ever going to let go of my throat Yeah, he was over me pressing on my throat going shut up shut up. I knew he would kill me He had already made that clear She was unconscious. She went unconscious from she choked her out. Yeah, he choked her out she said I just passed out blacked out for a minute and He said that after that he got weird. So that's not even the weird part. That's

Uh-huh. That's the violent part then She said quote. I don't know what came over him, but he just got off me and he said oh my god Do you know that I've raped you? Yeah, pretty aware of it asshole. Yeah, I would imagine she does and I said no no no Because I was scared for my life and I really thought it seemed his eyes were wild-looking and he said do you realize that? Rape is a felony and I can spend the rest of my life in jail So she was trying to act like no no no I was into it. No, it's cool.

She said, and I said, no, no, I won't report you. I swear to God, I wouldn't do that. And he said, look at my wrist. Do you see this? And she said he had a slash mark on each wrist. And he said, I've tried to commit suicide twice, and do you know what it'll do to me if they put me behind bars?

It'll kill me, I'll kill myself. So she said, I figured if I could if I could sympathize with him and try to persuade him that I wouldn't report him that He wouldn't hurt me. Yeah, that's smart She said so that's what I did I told him everything I could think of to make him believe that I wouldn't press charges and I would just forget about it So he said oh my god, I'm in so much trouble. He said his parents had put everything they had into him and he was not turning out right and that everything was going wrong and that he was a senior at tech and he was going to

graduate and not be able to get a job because he has rate charges and he's a fucking asshole. He just had a complete spiral spin out in front of this chick and she's like, I'm the one who just got raped. I don't need to fucking hear your fucking bullshit. Yeah, he had a very, so after, he had the traumatic experience after the rape. That's why. That's how fucking wack this guy is.

It all resonated real hard right then. Just, oh my God, I'm a piece of shit. It's wild. She says, quote, he said, I'll just kill myself. And at that point He got down on his hands and knees beside the bed and I was laying there afraid to move and he said look This is awful what I've done to you. You can have anything I've got you want the keys to my car you can have my car take anything in my apartment, you know, it's yours

I've done this awful thing to you. So he starts trying to like buy her off with shit. You want my car? Yeah, what I want the rate mobile. Give me that that'll be great So he starts trying to like buy her off with shit. You want my car? Yeah, I want the rape mobile. Give me that. That'll be great. I'd love to drive that around. He needs the rape to happen for him to be able to have his moment. But then, now that he's done it, now he's like, now how do I make this go away without

cops? That's what I think it is. I think this is all an act. Yeah, it certainly is. He does what he does and then he's like, well, this girl, I talked to her for a while and this is the type of dude, psychologically, he knows how to work women because he's been doing it for a long time.

He said, okay, this is a chick who's nice. She needs stuff. And I can maybe get her to do this. That's why he picked her out to begin with, I feel like. So he said, yeah, I've done this awful thing to you. Holy shit, man, that's fucking wild. I was going no, no, and I was looking around for my clothes trying to get out of there.

No, no, no, you're great. Yeah, I was like, oh, okay, oh yeah, no, everything's like bang, door closes behind, she runs to the cops. He sat down on the side of the bed, started to put his clothes on and said, I'm going to go down to the police station with you and I'm going to turn myself in.

Okay, what do you say to that? Yeah. And she said at that point, I didn't know what to believe because here was this guy who just tried to kill me and now he was going to go with me to the police station and turn himself in. We're going to walk in together and be like yeah, he hi. I'm the rapist here. Yeah, he's a rapist That's insane. She said at that point. She just didn't know what to do. I said no I'm not going to the police The last thing you want to do spend more time with this man. What a great answer Even if yeah, even if he's gonna gonna go with you

But he she thinks he's full of shit and she's just trying to see if she's gonna go to the cop Right, and if he goes she said, she said okay yeah she would have killed her probably right so he she said no I'm not going to the police I grabbed my clothes and took off out the door and ran down the steps she later did go to the police though and reported the sexual assault he is arrested and charged with rape okay no money for an attorney again again his parents, fucking, you know. What the fuck? Get the, again, hire the same guy,

or the guy, they can't hire that guy because he's a judge. Judge, right. So they hire somebody else who's a very well-known lawyer. They're mortgaging their house for this idiot. Wow. He's not worth it.

By rape charge too, it's now him. You know what I mean? Fool me once, you know what I'm saying? Now you get a job and pay for this cuz this is great now It's you now you're going out raping people on my dime, and I'm not having that shit I'm not gonna pay for you to fucking do this. This is right. Yeah, I bought your freedom for your rapes Yeah already before I'm not doing it again embarrassing enough you have my name now. I gotta yeah, this is gross so His lawyers legal strategy was to put the victim on trial

Yeah, obviously yeah, so he tried to discredit her So his lawyer's legal strategy was to put the victim on trial. Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. So he tried to discredit her, brought up in detail her sexual history and criticized the fact that she had a couple of beers at the pool, didn't you? Oh boy.

You were drinking out there, meeting up, going back to apartments with strange men to have sex with them, just like you did with all these other people Okay, that's what they're doing she cried on the stand and I Guess the the lawyer implied that he was wearing a bathing suit

That her wearing a bathing suit under her clothing into the apartment meant she wanted it Which is the weirdest thing I've ever heard because you can wear a bathing suit in public, but you can't wear underwear in public. Right. So a bathing suit is demonstrably less sexual than underwear. Than underwear, yeah.

So. And a step above being naked, James. Yeah, that's the other thing. Which is generally the time when you want it. Yeah, when your pussy's out. That's what you're really looking for. When everything's just exposed, it's you going, look at these, do these do it? Hey, what about that?

Okay, so the judge even asked, his lawyer asked the judge to sequester the jury during the lunch recess even. He said he was safeguarding against the jury learning of his previous rape charge. You want him going out to the fucking cafe there down at the little town diner and hearing that, oh, that boy's raping again, huh? Heard your own trial with Raperly. I mean, Eberle.

Oh, you know old Raperly. He said, this is the lawyer. He said, I had known Mr. Eberle had been in similar trouble before that and I didn't want them to go out at lunchtime and talk to their friends or call Home or whatever and have them be reminded of it or learn the fact that they had that he had been in similar trouble before So the jury deliberates for three hours Yeah, and they come back not guilty. What in the acquitted walk free young man walk tall so You know what I'm saying? Like that's that's I don't like the word similar in that case either a nectarine and a peach are

Similar, you know a tangerine and an orange similar. These are these are an orange and an orange This is the same thing. This is exactly, this is definitely oranges to oranges here. So he's fresh out of court and he is, there's a, he's in a senior year of Virginia Tech in 77 and 78. He's part of a carpool group that commutes to school. Yeah, yeah, from Radford up to Virginia Tech there. So there's occasionally they get stuck in a lot of traffic on the way there on a few occasions Chat oh no. No as they sat in traffic. He was pissed off He would like get fucking enraged in traffic

Eparley here he was gonna be late to class as one friend said he would quote get out of the car He was riding in run to the vehicle stopped in front of them open the driver's door pull the driver out of the vehicle beat him repeatedly with his fists and then get back in the car he'd been riding in as if nothing ever happened. What is what is that going to do man? Unless you run five miles up and punch the first guy. You're really and then and then keep punching as you go back to your. Yeah it's a lot of punching you can't get there the guy in front of you is it the cause of the traffic that's the thing the car is still there man yeah so logic

isn't his isn't the order of the day it's I need to get this out of my body and on to somebody whether it's with his fists or his dick yeah so finally spring of 78 after seven years of college. He finally graduates. Is that right seven fucking years? That's like a four-year degree in seven years. That's ogre from Revenge of the Nerds. Yeah, right That's yeah, that's who's in college for seven years. You don't get a discount for that. No, it's so much He's 26 years old. Uh-huh and his parents couldn't be more proud of him. Yeah, twice, twice acquitted. Seven years, seven years and two rape charges and he finally graduated.

Our boy. Shit with an associates. Wow, bachelor's fuck yeah, he got a bachelor's degree. Seven years. People get a fucking medical, they get a law degree in seven years. Seven years, yeah. That's like a, especially a graduate degree. So, former classmate of his likened him to Clint Eastwood

in the movie The Outlaw Josie Wales. How so? He said he lived by the feud, that's why. Wow. He could hold a grudge for years. Lived by the feud. By the feud. Like some, like people came in and massacred your family and then you're like, someday

I'll get revenge for that. Like Kaiser Soze or something. That's fucking crazy. I am a Negro. Yeah, that's, that's who he is though. It's exactly it. He could hold a grudge for years. One of the many well-known stories about Steve had to do with a guy who had bullied Steve

Way back when Steve was a freshman in high school My Christ was a little harboring. Well, he said well Eleven years later. Yeah, he said quote. Well, it's like ten years later late 70s Steve's now in his late 20s. So Christ it's probably 13 years later Steve's in a car at a stoplight in town, looks at the car beside him and recognizes the guy. Oh, he better floor it. From high school.

He jumps out of his car, runs up to the other car, the guy's in there with his wife and kids. It's 13 years later, man. Wailin' bangs on his car window and starts threatening him, you remember me? And the guy's probably like no who the fuck are you? You're really big. What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah. What you got to say to me now? And the guy drove fucking sped away because he was terrified. He's got a giant lunatic. You know you don't want to fight with your kids in the car usually. No. No. You want to be beaten to a pulp in front of your children. Yeah if I lose a fight the last people I want to lose it in front of or them

Yeah, especially if they're small. That's that's forever. Yeah, what are you gonna do ground me? Cuz you're not gonna hit me What do you want dad? I'm gonna call that guy from traffic to come over I know I know you drop your right a lot and you got a pretty weak chin So I know some things about you. I know you got that scar on your face. Yeah So Epperly is has a hard time finding jobs. He goes through a series of shit jobs that are beneath his His degree and qualifications and even intelligence, which is a common theme with people like this. Yeah, then they get angry about it Yeah, he's a delivery man for an office supply place He's got a substitute teaches at Kala Pulaski County High School a little what they hire a fucking two-time

Arrested rapists to substitute teach for children Wow in 1979 though he was hired by the Geisen Caldwell agency which was a real estate firm owned by the former mayor of Radford. And they were, you know, it was big shit. So he gets a job with them and he thinks he's hot shit. He gets his real estate license, gets better clothes, and he's trying to sell houses and

doing his thing. They put a big half page ad of his in the Radford News Journal in April 1980 Yeah, but in several months as an agent he fails to sell or even list a single property He does nothing listed nothing Didn't couldn't even get someone to list a house with him or sell an existing sale house nothing Doesn't nothing couldn't even walk into a place and go, my client will take it. None of that.

And he's working on straight commission, by the way. So he makes no money. So by the summer of 80, he said, fuck it. By the time, by June of 80, before this night at the club at the Marriott here, he is and starts working as a grounds maintenance worker on the campus of Radford University. He mows lawns for a living. He mows lawns, yeah, with the seven years of college and everything else.

Which in 1980, nowadays, that's not even that abnormal. But in 1980, if you were some decent-looking, well-spoken kid with a college diploma, you can get a fucking job. You can get a good job somewhere that you can make a living, but it's not like that anymore. he said that uh friends and co-workers said that um he was the best educated landscaper in the entire state probably in the country fucking crazy um the pay sucked um so he would he went into debt and you know he like got credit cards ran

them up and he started kept living with his parents because he had no money Wow, so he's almost 30. He's living with his parents with a maintenance job Well, and a college degree so things are not going well for him No, no one friend said it was starting to wear on him a little that he was pushing 30 and still living at home Now this is these are the conditions that we find him in where Gina walks in and meets him. Okay, she sees an athletic, good looking, you know, smiley, handshakey kind of guy. She has no idea who he is, not whatsoever. And we know how she's pretty fucking innocent. Gina, you know, she doesn't have a lot of street smarts here. So at the club, she runs into Stephen Epperly

and his childhood friend and also Virginia Tech football player, Bill Skipper King. Skipper, like the fuckin', his brother's name is Cricket. That's his nickname, Cricket and Skipper. Or Barbie? Yeah, that was the, Skipper was the tall one, right? Or was that the Barbie knockoff? Noipper was I think Barbie's babysitter the little girl that skipper was yeah like the nun but it was like a Barbie doll size like

a little doll she was tiny but I mean a little doll where cricket was the tall cricket was the one that walked around right like the fucking like the fucking like a two-foot no fucking, like a two foot, no, no, no, but like a two foot high creepy little like fucking baby person. Oh, like it had motors in it and shit? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it talked and shit. It was like a fucking, no, it was like a baby Teddy Ruxpin

strange, molester fucking villain tool. I don't know what it was, but creepy looking. A fuck doll instead? Yeah, that's what it was. That talk to you in a little girl voice, but creepy looking. A fuck doll instead? Yeah. I don't like that at all. That talk to you in a little girl voice, that's creepy. Yikes! So, they're all at the Marriott Hotel, and Bill and Steven have known each other since they were both small children.

They played football all through high school together. They know each other. Bill King here, Skipper, said that he and Epperly planned to go to the Blacksburg Marriott for a night out and Skipper picked him up in His car at about 10 p.m. Because Stephen doesn't doesn't seem to really have a car also. That's the other problem He doesn't have any money James if he had a car gas in it. You can't even fucking list a house never mind sell it so he they drove first to the home of Skipper's mother

and stepfather and they have a home on Claytor Lake. It's a fucking beautiful lakeside house. Absolutely gorgeous. One of these places where you're like, holy shit, like what kind of people live here on the side of a lake? It's beautiful, fucking gorgeous. So they had to stop over there because his mom and stepdad were on vacation

and they had to stop to make sure the house was secure because there'd been some vandalization in the area. It's summer and there's a lot of people out on the lake. So he did this, he would go check on it and he found everything was fine. So after that, Skipper and Steve, they drive to Blacksburg to go to the Marriott. So they get to the Marriott at about 11 p.m. So Gina's been there a little bit, for a little while.

They join up with three of their friends. One of the friends knows Gina. That's how Gina becomes part of this group with them. Now, now they, King, Skipper King, and Steve had never met Gina before though. But right away, Steve and Gina hit it off. And they start dancing. And they dance for a while, about 30 minutes of dancing. Four or five songs, they said. So I mean, that's a whole thing they're doing here.

They're getting into it. He's sweaty. Yep, so then they left the dance floor and Gina walked back to the table where she had been sitting before and They went their separate ways for a while. They danced for a bit She went and sat down he went and talked to some people and you know They mingled around and then after that Steve ends up reapproaching her about twice more Just to talk to her or whatever and then about an hour later they end up talking a

little bit more and they're just like sitting talking to each other. So according to skipper here Steve invites Gina to come back to the lake house because that's a spot they have because the parents are out of town. So yeah King had discussed they'd been talking about it earlier and the plan was basically if we get chicks we're bringing them back to this lake house because that's a good place to party and swim and fuck, you know what I mean? Yeah, because Wi-Fi internet cameras don't exist right now. This is going to be great.

This is going to be amazing. Yeah, we're going to have a debaucherous fucking naked frolic in the backyard and jump in the lake and skinny dip. Your mom can't see me rail her over your fucking jet ski hood or in your mom's bed is probably like what's gonna happen right on the kitchen island. So they discussed it and he's King said I knew he was living at home if he wanted to pick up a date and he needed a place to go.

I had told him that the place was open if you want to go there. So about 1230 a.m. Steve approaches Skipper in the club here and says, hey, let me get the key to the lake house. This chick wants to come back with me. So Skipper said, I have to go get it. I left it in the car. I left that key in the car. So then he headed toward the front door to go out to his car and get the key. Steve walks with him in the same direction with Gina a few steps behind, walking with them. They get to the front door to go out to his car and get the key, Steve walks with him in the same direction with Gina a few steps behind, walking with them. They get to the front door and just before going outside, this is the first time Steve actually introduces Skipper to Gina. By the way, this is Gina.

Gina is my boy. This is my boy Skipper. And Gina said, how are you doing? And he said, I'm fine. And then they all walked out of the club and headed toward Skipper's car in the parking lot. As they walked, Steve asked if he could take the car too. Oh, mind if I just leave you here? And he said, no, it's a stepfather's old Thunderbird. So it's an old-

Oh, like a 50s Thunderbird? Yeah, like literally until your daddy takes the T-bird away and that's what he's got. My's gonna take the T-bird away. I can't do this. These guys are not living in reality No late 20s trying to fuck college students while driving their parents cars and taking them back to their family lake house This is you guys are ten years late for this shit. It's pathetic It's fucking ten years late for this and be 30 years early for this. Like if you want to take, you got to take your wife back to your lake house. That's what you're supposed to do.

Get jobs, assholes. And buy your own cars in lake houses, you fucking losers. Your parents were like fucking saving money for lake houses and shit when they were your age. You're a jerk off. You're doing nothing. So he says, no, you can't take my fucking car that's crazy so he said you can use my house But he can't have the car now by the way he wasn't drinking Steve at all really

Skipper said that he hadn't drank in about four years because Steve gets a quote a little hyper when he gets drunk and gets into Fights twice as much as when he doesn't get drunk. So that's not called hyper. That's called aggressive. Yeah. He said a little hyper. He said he didn't drink it. See him drink anything alcoholic that night.

So then Steve turns to Gina and says, do you mind if we take your car? And Gina says, sure, why not? So Skipper says, quote, she seemed to be confused as to what car, uh, what car was going and exactly who was going. I think when she came out, she thought maybe I was driving them or she didn't know what was going on. So she was confused. Um, so this is, this is the thing that is a little weird here.

Now, her sister, Delana, Gina's sister, is adamant that Gina would never, ever, ever, ever have left the club voluntarily with a guy and gotten a car with him, period. Which, you know what, I'm not trying to, I understand that it's her sister and she thinks she knows her, but if she's younger than her

and of a certain reputation to her maybe she wouldn't tell you that she would do that but she's also a normal healthy 18 year old girl who's been out dancing and grooving with some guy and maybe is attracted to him you know what I mean? Yeah maybe she wouldn't go with a stranger but maybe she didn't consider this person a stranger at this moment. One of her friends knew him too so it wasn't like she just met him and he was a stranger from nowhere

She was introduced to him by a friend So at this point we're all in a big friend group and when you're in college And when you're that age if a friend of yours knows somebody that's your friend too. Like it doesn't matter You know this person and and it Not you don't want to but maybe you give him the credit of he's a good predator and he made her feel comfortable. That's the other thing. Yeah. Ted Bundy used to make perfect strangers feel comfortable.

Yeah. You know what I mean? It's how it works. And they wouldn't go with strangers usually. No. But this guy isn't a stranger. He had a broken arm and he seems so nice and kind. A big smile on his face.

He's got a real estate smile. That's the thing. That's what they do. He can't sell real estate but his fucking ad looked perfect. I mean he looked A-OK. So the sister said she must have been deceived, tricked, or physically forced to leave the club. There you go. She probably was. But I don't think so because from everything from this point out, old Skipper King seems to be very honest about everything. And this is his

story saying we went outside, they were together. I mean, everybody saw them dancing all night, talking all night. I think he just had a good game and you know she wanted that's that's being tricked and that's fine it's yeah yeah it's being tricked but she's saying like you know he said hey I'll just we'll go down for ice cream and I'll bring you right back or something like no but she said no one knew my sister better than me there's no way that she would have left that bar on her own free will with some 28 year old guy She just met no way Gina was not naive

But she kind of was though if she hasn't hung out with a lot of guys And this guy has been doing this for ten fucking years being a bar Scumbag and college football player and all that those guys are and a 30 year old guy with a lake house He probably didn't say it's his dad's lake house. No, I said we got a lake us your lake house Yeah, either way they drove out of the part of the parking lot here. He's driving her car. He's driving the money car I'll drink. Yeah. Well, no, no because he knows how to get to the house Oh, you know, it's where it's at. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think she was drinking either because she's only 18 back then I'm not sure what the law was in Virginia

because a lot of states had 18 as the drinking age, but I don't know what Virginia's was. So I assume she seems too responsible to be drinking if she had her sister's car though. Great point. Yeah. Drinking a lot anyway. So King there, Skipper King just goes back into the club and rejoins his friends there. The lake, by the way, is really nice. It's a 4,000 acre lake with miles of shoreline and woods and beautiful houses, it's sailboats on it, people fishing, it's fucking gorgeous. So very, very nice. This is at 4955 Weaver Road, which is perched on a big hill

with a beautiful view of the whole lake. Wow. Gorgeous. 1 a.m. comes around, which is pretty much right when they get to the beach house. Which is perched on a big hill with a beautiful view of the whole lake gorgeous 1 a.m. Comes around which is pretty much right when they get to the beach house or to the house here Lake house Delana has been asleep for a while when the phone rings and she's awoken And she said that Gina called and said that her voice was very uneasy and kind of out-of-character Nervous is what she said. So this is the conversation.

She said, Delana? And she said, yeah, Gina? Gina said, yeah. Delana said, where are you? And she said, I'm out at the lake. And Delana said, well, what are you doing at the lake? And she said, I'm looking at it. Fuck you think I'm doing it with it.

Draining it, drinking it. Well, fuck do you think? Yeah, I'm looking at it. Fuck you think I'm doing it with it. Draining it, drinking it. What the fuck do you think? Yeah. I'm looking at it. I'm looking at it. What do you think? Then Delana said, who are you? Well, who are you looking at it with?

And she said, Steve. And Delana said, please hurry home. And suddenly, this is what Delana said, suddenly the phone on Gina's end hung up and the line was dead which is just she hung up that's all it was so the weird part here is though that conversation it sounds very much like she's talking to her mom Gina is talking to her mom that's a that's I'm calling home conversation with Steve were you with? Steve. Well, who is Steve? Is it the way that you have to get, you have to ask every question,

like a court case to get the answer out of the kid. They won't just tell you, I went to the lake house with a guy named Steve I just met and we're hanging out looking at the lake. They don't say that. Well, you didn't ask me that as the excuse they can use later. So that tells me that she might be kind of like,

kind of leave me alone here. I'm trying to be an adult. You know I mean that's leaving that's even a few things out because it's none of your business yeah but she said it was she sounded very uneasy and very out of character and nervous it's a two-minute conversation about 1 a.m. so by 4 o'clock in the morning bill 315 he called a chick and she answered to come over to the lake house and swim and fuck him. This is crazy skipper

Skipper that's how the game skippers got he's got a boy He gets done at the club and he's like I will call this chick She woke up woke her up at 3 a.m. And she's like, I'll be right there. Hold on. Let me put my swimsuit on You're not gonna believe it. I struck out at the Marriott Wow And that's what happened. They get there, a woman named Robin Robinson. She's just so sad about her name having Robin in it twice. Old pocket Robin here coming over. Four o'clock in the morning and they see that the brown money Carlos parked in the driveway and that there's no lights on in the house. So King enters the door here,

enters the home through the upper level and closes the doors and turns on the kitchen light because he wasn't trying to bust in the living room. I guess Steve was in the den on a lower level and he called upstairs, Bill, is that you? And King didn't see him, but he calls back, I've got somebody with me and we're going down to the dock to go swimming. In other words, don't come out there because I'm going to be getting blown. King didn't see him, but he calls back. I've got somebody with me and we're going down to the dock to go swimming Yeah, don't come out there cuz I'm gonna be getting blown. There's any tits out there Yeah, and I don't my tits for the night not yours. Just stay in there These are these are my lakeside titties and you can't have any access to them Do not plan on sharing this meal. Nope, not at all. So Steve replied, well, we've got to leave.

And King said that that's okay. You don't have to. You can hang around. We're just going swimming. Like you don't have to get out of the house. It's cool. Steve said, well, she's got to be getting back. Meaning I guess Gina.

So Robin looked down the stairs at that point, the girl that Steve was with, the woman he's with and sees Steve down there. looked down the stairs at that point, the girl that Steve was with, the woman he's with, and sees Steve down there, the one that the girl that King was with looks down and sees Steve down there and says he's in pants but no shirt and he's wiping his shoulders off with a blue towel. That's what she saw. She didn't see Gina at all down because it was just him standing there. So they ended up, King and Robin, they go to the dock and Robin goes swimming for about 15 20 minutes while they're out there Steve comes out to the glass doors facing the lake and flashes the lights momentarily in other words put your titties away Yeah, yeah, I'm coming out. So no fucking right now. I come and then calls out bill. I'll see you later. We're leaving. Okay

Okay, there's no lights on indoors and nobody, they couldn't see anything, they just heard him. He flashed it, they heard him yell. So they didn't hear the car start and they said it was out of their view, so who knows. It's a big property too, so that makes sense. About five minutes later, King and Robin enter the house through the glass doors in the back and just inside, King had no shoes on, he stepped in a wet spot on the carpet. He pulled some cushions onto the floor so he and Robin could lay on them, and again he noticed his foot was in something wet. So he mentioned it to Robin, and he thought it was water.

He said, I assume they went swimming. He had a towel on, and they probably went swimming, came in all wet and got the fucking carpet wet here. So no big deal. Maybe they left a wet fucking towel on the ground or whatever. So he continues, he and Robin, whatever, are doing their thing. The next morning, June 29th, Sunday,

King drives Robin home at 10 a.m. And he picks up his four-year-old son, because King's got a four-year-old kid, and returns to the lake house to take the kid swimming. Okay, now, shortly thereafter, Steve shows up in his own car, so he does have a car, followed by two other friends. King is swimming with his son

while the other guys are throwing horseshoes. That's what they're doing. So he said that Steve's always welcome at the house and he's fully familiar with it. Yet for some reason he came down all the way to the dock, Steve does, to ask King if it's okay for him to go inside and get a drink. Hmm. Which is weird. So King goes, yeah, go fuck what the fuck are you talking about? Of course you can't go in there. Didn't you bring a girl back here to have sex last night? Yeah, like I clearly don't care. There's a line line like that is a line before I can I get a drink? Come on, man. We're adults taking advantage of my parents generosity. There's no limit to this. Go ahead

Fuck there's got come all over their floor. It's gross So he said that Steve remained in the house unusually long to get a drink. And when he popped back up, he asked him, did you fall in a hole or something up there? What the hell happened? And Steve answered, well, I couldn't find an opener. That's what he said.

There's a whole bar set up, so probably an opener there. So sometime before 7 a.m. on this Sunday morning, so this is hours earlier, because you know they left at 10 a.m. he was driving, King drove his girlfriend home there, so sometime before 7 a.m. a Pulaski County Sheriff's Deputy saw a brown 1975 Chevy Monte Carlo parked alongside the road of its hazel hollow road Near a point where a railroad trestle crosses the new river into the city of Radford The trunk is open

Now the cop said not concerned at all because that's where fishermen parked fish off the riverbank So it's probably somebody getting the cooler out bringing it down They're gonna come up and close their trunk and get something else out So the cop just keeps driving doesn't notice doesn't take too much note of it. Around lunchtime, a guy named Jerry Eugene Ross, who is a notorious local car thief and car burglar, he has a dozen larceny convictions, and at this time, two upcoming trial dates for breaking into cars and stealing shit Okay, so he and his girlfriend drive along this road pass under the trestle and

They're always looking for a place to break in and he finds this car sitting there trunk open get out open Yeah, makes a u-turn parks behind it gets into the car. It's unlocked. He rummages through it Delana had left her purse under the front seat when she lent it to Gina, and also Gina's purse was under the front seat, so he scored both fucking purses. Both of those, yeah. Both purses got back into the car within a minute and he told his girlfriend, quote,

"'Easy peasy Japanesey,' and he drove away. I just got a whole bunch of evidence that could make me look like an asshole. Easy peasy Japanesey in jail. On murder charges for murder charges. And so the cop passes by again, the same cop passes by after midnight. This guy's got a long fucking shift from 7 to past midnight. No shit and the car's still there?

It's still there. Oh he might be on night shift so that might be the next night. Yeah that might be the end. It's still there, the trunk is still open and the driver's window's down. So he radios it in now because most fishermen don't leave it parked there for a day. It's rare. Yeah. And it's belonged to a party named Hall, which is their last name. It's Delana's car in Coburn, Virginia. It's not reported stolen. So he goes shrugs his shoulders, drives away, not stolen. Somebody left their car here. That's their fucking problem. Not mine. It's not a no parking zone. Nope. So Gina doesn't show up by Sunday evening. Now, Lana's freaking out.

She's freaking out. So her and she calls up two friends of hers, Robert Lenton, Craig Runyon, and they go in searching for the car and they find it. Oh. It's in the same spot that the cop and the burglar had seen it near the trestle on Hazel Hollow Road. The one friend stayed with the car while the others went into Radford to get the police

Now the guy who stayed with the car noticed there were empty plastic cups Matches and other trash in the car and that the door pull was ripped off the driver's side. Oh my god So when you close the door, yeah back then they all had that like little strap handle thing You know what I mean? Is it the is it the door pull on the outside or outside no the inside the inside yeah yeah yeah you know yeah they had that fucking close on one yeah yeah yeah yeah like a little strap but it's strapped to both that both sides are strapped down so they find that that's odd the driver's window is open and the seat is pushed all the way back Okay, all the way back. So we know Gina's not not driver

Yeah No, but also the burglar might have fucking moved the seat around to search for shit under the seat. There is that Yeah, which makes sense, too. So Yeah, they thought this was strange basically and delana said that the car had been clean vacuumed and freshly waxed when Gina left With it. Oh, it was a talk about a waste of time. Yeah waxing a brown 75 Monte Carlo Talk about polishing a turd. You're literally polishing a turd

Holy shit Talk about polishing a turd. You're literally polishing a turd. You're literally polishing a turd. Holy shit. A 50 foot long turd. A 50 foot long turd. So by Tuesday, people are freaking out. No Gina still. No sign of her. So now lookouts are being broadcast everywhere, being broadcast on the radio. Her sister actually calls a radio station and, hey, put a, you know,

a thing out saying we're looking for this girl. And they went, we know they said, we're, they said, if we did that every time some college chick went and hung out with her friends, we, you know, it's all the radio would be, we can't do that. So she went to the station and said, I'm not fucking leave until you do this. And they, they ended up doing it. So they, they put that out. Um,, King, Skipper King, he hears the description of the car on the radio and goes, oh shit. I know a car. Yeah, so he goes over to Eperley's job here and says,

hey, you should report that you were with that girl. Go to the cops so they won't think you have anything to hide. Like, I know you didn't do anything, but go to the fucking cops because there's something wrong, that girl's missing and you don't want them to think it's you. So Steve's response was, who did you tell about this? Oh my God, Steve.

Which is a terrifying response. Wrong answer. Yeah. So King told him that there had been discussion on the matter in the weightlifting club where they worked out. So Steve said, well, I'll tell you what, man, do me a favor, go back down there and tell them not to say anything and just kind of talk it down and don't broadcast it. I was hanging out with that.

Shut them up, would you? Be like super suspicious. Like really like make it make everybody really wonder what's going on. Do me a solid right now and fuck this whole thing up. They're gonna look bad. So the police, they find out from a bunch of people because King talks to them. He has nothing to hide.

And he went right to the police, didn't do anything shady and said that Epperling was with them and they trace her steps. They can tell quickly that she left with him. So they find that out. Now they interviewed Epper they interviewed Epperly, and he said he'd driven Gina from the Marriott to the house in the car,

and that as soon as they arrived, she called her sister. He said he overheard her tell Delana that she was at the lake with Steve, me, and that she wouldn't be out all night and that she'd be home in the morning. He said that he went to the dock where they were swimming, but Gina refused to join him, as we know why. And they went to the house where they talked

for a few minutes and that he kissed her son. That's what he said. He said at this point that Gina had told him that she once had a bad experience with a man and that she would have to know him very well before she would have sex with him. So it's not going much further than just some fondling. My shirt came off once before and it scared him.

Yeah, exactly. And I'd rather not go through that fucking trauma again. Either that or somebody maybe just, somebody had sex with her and then didn't talk to her again and made her feel bad when he told people she was weird or something, who knows, man? Talked about her scars or anything. That's what I mean, could be any of a million

different things. So he said fine, and he said that they left then the house with her driving the Chevy, with her driving is important because it's back to where a guy who's about six feet tall would drive. He said that he directed her and she drove him to his house in Radford where he got out, gave her directions to return to her apartment from there and then went to bed. Now her sister, Gina's sister said that she drove around Radford long enough to know the

area and wouldn't have needed directions home from there. Not from there, yeah. From that place. So also that day, Steve has another conversation with somebody with a close friend of his, area and wouldn't have needed directions home from there. Not from there. Yeah. From that place. So also that day, Steve has another conversation with somebody with a close friend of his named William Cranwell and he asked if Cranwell's brother, who's an attorney, might be available to represent him. Oh, well, you need an attorney.

Yeah. Cranwell said that he requested, Cranwell said, I don't think so. I don't think he does stuff like that. So Cranwell then he then asked Cranwell, if if and when I talk to my brothers, what Cranwell said to ask him if there was anything that he could do to him, if they didn't find a body, that's what Steve said. If and when you talk to your brother, ask if they can do anything to me, if they don't find a body or is it nobody, no crime?

Is that indeed in fact telling everyone because it was back then though we'll find out yes oh yeah there certainly was a first case that changed it, but it's still so wild. Oh my god. Swimming in the lake. So yeah, that's what they asked. As they walked outside to his car, he repeated the request again. Steve repeated again, like we said, and then he was certain, the friend was certain that Steve referred to quote, a body or the body And then it was not prompted by anything that Cranwell had said and that Steve was the only one who used the word body

So that's not good no, it's that's very bad so July 2nd now this is all going on. They're discussing King again skipper King He's talking to with the police again and accompanied them back to the house on the lake Because now they're not just looking maybe she's at a friend's house whatever now. They're like, okay Where was she and back it up if I'm his parents? I am furious You've brought police to my police to my lake house to write vacation respite you son of a bitch

Well, they're out of town on vacation at Myrtle Beach so different water they're going home yeah quite the life they're living so he's King says I found this broken ankle bracelet on the floor this bracelet at the time he says it's a gold bracelet with interlocking hearts yeah and he gives it to the police. And the police ask the sister, what was she wearing? And the sister describes, boom, and they said, well, is this a similar bracelet? And it is. Now, and they all, everybody in the Davis family, King's family, uh, or King's family there said that they never saw that before in the house. So it's not like it was there. So they say we got talked to Steve again. So they advise him of his rights and then Sergeant Hall interrogating him advises him of his

rights and just flat out accuses him of killing Gina. Because you killed that fucking girl, didn't you? He said, shit, no, I didn't kill that girl. What are you talking about? That's crazy. Well, who would do that? That's nuts. So he said, no, you killed that girl. And then Steve just shut the fuck up and sat there and wouldn't say anything. He's very silent. Doesn't say no, doesn't protest, just silently sits there, which-

You were just accused of murder, man. I did not kill a girl, and you're saying I killed a girl. I am going to argue with you a lot about that. I'm not just going to go, nah. Nah. Yeah. If you said I watched a show I don't like, I'll argue with you to the end of time nevermind kill the girl

You know don't fucking tell me I like fucking What the hell's the thing for impractical jokers or whatever? I don't want to watch that shit And the office So he said that I the cop then advised him to cooperate with him Cooperate with me because the silence is a bad sign like I said yeah you're innocent you protest you don't sign I only I accused you twice you didn't protest I know what you did so let's just talk about it let's get it out he's just acting like it's all on the

table and the cop says quote think about how your cooperation will affect the jury. Think about that and Steve says I'll think about it. Steve, what are you doing man? Bad answer again and then they don't arrest him. What? Yeah I'm going just on what the way you were here I'm arresting you. We'll figure out the rest later but this is crazy. We'll find some proof at some point.

We'll find something. I have a feeling you're not that smart stupid so. So based on this interview, I'm going to say just based on that. So July 3rd, 1980, the Sergeant Duffy with the Virginia State Police finds the contents of Gina's purse concealed under a brush pile along Hazel Hollow Road. It was just tossed out the window by the guy who stole it. Right. The purse. Fucking asshole. Yup. Ten feet off the highway and the purse, everything was bunched together, nothing was scattered.

This included her checkbook with its final entry date at June 28th. So they know she hasn't done shit since then. July 5th comes along, so they all had a nice 4th of July holiday, and then the 5th comes, and King now, Skipper King talks to Steve, and he's like, listen, you know, he said that night he was saying, Steve tells him when we were talking in the house, when you were upstairs and I was downstairs drying off, Steve says, you did hear her, didn't you? You heard her down there. She was with me at the time. And King says, I didn't, I didn't hear her. I don't know what

you're talking about. Then he says, did you kill her bro? Literally says, did you kill her? And he says, this is his response, quote, Bill, I don't know anything about it. We'll just have to wait and see. And then walked away. I don't know anything about it. We'll just have to wait and see and then just walked away like someone didn't just accuse you of murder. Did you kill a young woman in my parents' house? You son of a bitch. It's a real wait and see situation right now, Bill. What is this, a fucking to be continued sitcom? No. Shit. This is acidite.

Did you murder in my mom's house? You can't murder in my parents fucking lake house. Do you understand this is set up as this amazing lakeside fuck pit and you're just ruining it you're destroying the sanctity of my parents fuck pit. This is not cool. They had equity man. It's all gone. It's all gone.

No one wants that house. If you murdered in there nobody wants that house. Nobody wants it. We're gonna have to knock it down like OJ's house. Is that what you want? So that's pretty wild King then said after that they they talked about it He said well what happened between you guys if you didn't kill her and he told Steve said that they just started kissing did A little fondling through the clothes and that's about it And then he went swimming and no, he wouldn't join him. Oh, he then goes and Steve fails a polygraph test. Fails a polygraph.

The tests show that he lied in response to the questions, do you know where Gina Hall's body is and did you kill Gina Hall? Those are two bad questions to fail. Those are the worst ones to fail at. The worst questions you could ever not answer good. Did you kill a girl and conceal her body? No So Wow now the police want to go over the lake house with a fine-tooth comb here Yeah So as they do they find minute blood stains on the concrete driveway they find minute blood stains on the concrete driveway on a walk in front of the glass doors facing the lake on a light switch in the mid level bathroom off the den on the leg of a

chair on a pair of brown shoes on a golf shoe on a dustpan on a Matic, which if you know what a Matic is, it's a fucking pickaxe. Oh, God, a pickaxe, one of those like you would dig a railroad with if you were, you know, in the 1880s. So an ematic that was beside the refrigerator and on the refrigerator door. Okay, that's a lot of blood in a party house. In a lot of varied places too. They said that the fridge had been wiped nearly clean, but a faint blood smear were visible along it with hairs and fibers as well. A hair was caught in a cleat of a golf shoe beside the refrigerator as well.

A hair is caught in it and there's blood on it. There's a blood stain on the inner refrigerator door gasket as well. And this is from a report. The refrigerator door exhibits streaked beige staining which has been has the appearance of being wiped diluted blood staining. Human blood of insufficient quality for determination of blood type was identified on the refrigerator door. Five caucasian head hairs removed from the door are similar to the hair from the curlers that they got. They got samples of her hair to compare to there. Two Caucasian hairs and three Caucasian hair fragments could not be associated with any of the submitted hair samples.

Present with the hairs removed from the refrigerator door are two coarse, brilliant, trilobes synthetic fibers, like from a blanket or a rug. Or a shirt or something. Then a large blood stain about 18 inches in diameter was found on the living room carpet just inside the glass doors. It had been partially cleaned up and was bleached out to a faint pinkish color. How did these how did Skipper not see that? These

parents are the fucking they're so pissed. So pissed. Jesus Christ. The police testify later on that these items would not have been apparent to a casual observer. They weren't easily noticeable. They said that, and they asked the people who owned the beach house, the parents, the lake house, if it had been left very clean, and they said there was no reason for there to be blood stains in the house.

Because they generally don't have blood around. They said very few blood stains when we left. So the Lana is trying to find her sister. And that's when she goes to the radio station. And she said, when I got to the radio station, I told them why I was there and met the station's manager, I explained the situation. And yeah, I said I knew it was the best hope to get the word out and apparently it worked yeah so they did it at the top and bottom of every hour so volunteers join in the search for Gina a group of five friends from

her hometown came over to look and they discover a blue towel in heavy undergrowth ten feet from the railroad tracks near the trestle. Where the car was. Yeah, the towel has blood stains and contained fibers identical to the carpet at the lake house in the living room. That's interesting. It was identified later on by King's parents as an identical towel that was previously unused and is currently missing from the home. I wonder if that's the one that Robin Robinson saw him dabbing his shoulders with. Blue towel, exactly.

Also missing from the house was a blue and white towel, a roll of toilet papers, a toilet paper, or paper towel, paper towels. Who the fuck knows the exact number of paper towels rolls they have in their house I have no idea how many pay if one of my paper towel rolls was missing I would that would be a mystery that would go down for the ages. I I don't live in there. No, we're like, I don't have I don't know. I have them. Yeah Yeah, I don't buy paper towel rolls when I'm down to like Taco Bell napkins I have no I I go I see a few left and I'll buy more. I probably got eight, seven, I don't know.

There's some. We have a closet with paper towels and toilet paper. I have no fucking idea. There's a bunch of it in there because god damn it, I'm not gonna be left without it. I'm never going to ever, ever, ever be caught with my pants down. Oh my god, also a can of Dow bathroom cleaner with a green plastic

cap and a large handmade quilt they said is missing. But they don't release the quilt to the public. The public does not know the quilts missing only the rest of the things. They they later found the green plastic cap here on the bathroom cleaner by a trash can in the furnace room. She thought it was weird that it was there, so she gave it to the police because it wasn't where they left it. Then they find a shoe. A police sergeant finds a shoe on the Radford side of the river near the end of the trestle. At this point, Delana Hall's friend, the sister, contacts her and says that, listen, you should contact

this psychic that was on the Donahue show, the Phil Donahue show. Okay, they said that he was from somewhere in the Midwest and he gets uses of psychic abilities to solve several high profile cases. Maybe he knows where Gene is. So she said, got nothing else to lose, so she said she'd do it. She learned his name was Jerry Stewart He was 37 years old. He's from Des Moines. He's a big showman and He was actually known as a decent psychic actually kind of know some shit

So she gets his phone number tells him about the disappearance. He immediately told her he had positive feelings about his ability to help Weird right you thinking I don't know anything In the initial conversation he gave a description to Delana of the person he thought murdered Gina Okay. Now he also he's a but he weighs about six hundred twenty five pounds this guy Stewart Yeah, big old dude. Wow, is he the big giant guy that was on Nathan for you that was doing that I would do in the house Remember the haunted that haunted real estate agent Oh, yeah, what that guy in and then that he died that guy recently, but I don't know this guy

No 31 in 1973 he'd be much older this guy So he ended up getting gastric bypass surgery a or gastric surgery, whatever they did in 1973, just remove your stomach. Just sample your throat shot. Yeah. You get to taste it and spit it out. That was good. You drink the juice of whatever you have.

So while he was there, he had a near-death experience where he flatlined on the table. And after the surgery, he said that he gained the psychic ability. So he's been working as a psychic entertainer at nightclub lounges throughout the Midwest and even did some shit in Vegas. And he goes from table to table interacting with guests, giving them impressions. He was receiving psychic readings. You know what it looks like. You're going to get laid tonight. Those kind of things. Yeah. That was right there. You took her out. You spent a

lot. He started billing himself as the world's number one psychic and even had his own nationally syndicated radio show. And then he was on TV all the time. And that's how they found him. So he gets to town and he says, take me to the lake house. Oh, here we go. On the way there in a police car the detective, there's a detective and another officer, he has to be blindfolded. Blindfold me. I don't want to know. Okay he's got to get his all of his psychic shit in order here. Psychic ducks in a row. Yeah. So the cop then says this, this is detective Jackie Rupp,oupe quote we pull up to the lake house

He's blindfolded and he gets out of the car and he trips and falls probably We didn't tell him shit, he just fell all over the place He's drained round him so he just walked into the lake we were like not the house is okay So damn to say you got out of the car and then a bus hit him So damn just say you got out of the car and then a bus hit him. So you said he gets out of the car, points in the air blindfolded and says there's a tree right there with a dead limb. Sure enough he was pointing directly at the dead limb of a tree. That got our attention.

I guess it was that he wanted to prove himself. So he then entered the lake house and immediately told the police that something was missing from the house He goes on he said it's a blanket Goes on to describe in detail the colors of the blanket and said Gina Hall is buried in that blanket arrest him Take him in How many people have you killed sir? him in. How many people have you killed, sir? So this was one of the details that investigators had not disclosed to anyone outside the police that there was a missing quilt from the master bedroom and this guy had accurately described

all the colors of the quilt. How the fuck does he know that? That's wild. So later in the day while sitting in a police cruiser he accurately provided the description of an area along Hazel Hollow Road near the railroad trestle where the car had been found already. He said the killer either buried Gina near there or had been in that area with her body. The police were so impressed with this shit they were actually asking him questions. They were like, holy shit. They actually called for cadaver sniffing dogs to search right there because they said he might be buried. She might be buried there. He then, the psychic then leads the authorities to several other sites along the river that were searched and never found. At one point he went into a deep trance-like state and

when he came out he said he's 100% confident in his general impression of where the body was. He said she's not in Clader Lake, she's not in the river. He said she was buried near the water and also says that the body could be partially buried. Okay. Why do you get all that information and then not tell us who fucking did it? That they don't know how do you know all of that, but not a fucking name? It's that that's the ways of the psychic universe.

It's not how they work. Bullshit. We have to figure some things out for ourselves, man. Nightmare, man. How do you know? So know quilt and it's missing? And a tree limb. Who did it? Who the fuck did it?

So they said they're going to sit down with Steve and they said they didn't think it would be a good conversation, but they're going to try. They said they were going to sit down and talk to him and they said please help us tell us where she is. Yeah. The prosecutor was it was prepared to offer him a plea bargain 20 years in jail if you show where us where the fucking body is and plead guilty. We'll give you 20 years. Yeah we find it and you are fucked man. He said no. I don't know what you're talking about. Then they bring in a guy who's John Preston a retired Pennsylvania State Trooper Qualified as an expert in the training handling and reading of tracking dogs now. They're bringing in dogs

So there's all sorts of you know all of his is he's been an expert witness in 17 states and has all sorts of shit It's all resume. He's done it a long time. He works with a male German Shepherd named harass to harass Which is probably not what you should call your German Shepherd's police officers harass Perfect. That's actually the perfect name. We got one called police brutality No call beating me with a club is that one you get me there So this had been used in over 150 criminal cases throughout the United States meet harass has to He had successfully followed trails as old as 21 days. They say oh

so he had in 1978 followed an elderly man who was missing for nine hours through the streets of a town for seven blocks finding him Unconscious despite three feet of snow being on the ground and hardly falling So it's pretty impressive this dog so they get there about midnight on July 10th they did neither of them were familiar with the area meaning him or the dog and They were not told of the existence of a suspect or anything. They just said look around So they take him to hazel hollow road where the Chevy was found. The dog scented on underwear taken from Steve. The dog began casting a search.

So they're looking, is anything smell like this guy around here? Within a hundred yards, the dog indicated that he picked up the scent and he was seeking it. This is, I found Steve over here. He leaves the road, heads up a path, heads up a path up the grade to the trestle and crosses the New River into Radford following a walkway on the right side

of the tracks. He followed a route through Radford going to an area under Memorial Bridge on Route 11, retraces his steps along the tracks to a railroad switching area, goes around a box factory following a gravel path to a main thoroughfare Passing through the new river valley shopping plaza part of a 24-hour car wash that's there through other streets across Intersections through a private lot and finally turned up on the walkway leading up to the front porch of a house The door walked up to the front door of the house and sat down and stopped They said, interesting. You know whose house it was?

Fucking Steve's. It's fucking Steve's house. Holy shit. He just walked from the car all the way to his house. Underwear. Unbelievable. Sniffed him out. So they go, wow, this fucking dog is pretty goddamn impressive.

So yeah, the shoe, they said Gina's shoe, the two towels, the bundle of clothing that we haven't talked about yet that had been recovered at previous times, the trail followed by the dog led the trackers closely past each of the locations of where everything is found of all of her shit. Unbelievable. Yep. They said the dog's behavior indicated three lengthy pauses where the person tracked and had lingered on the trail.

The first of these was on one third of the way across the trestle over the river, the second was under the bridge, the third was the railroad switching area. So, forensic scientists who are hair and fiber experts and biochemical analysis bloodstain people, serologists, were furnished with the exhibits in the case and everything like that. Of all the blood stains taken from the house, the lake house, which were capable of identification, they're all found to be type O blood, which is what Gina is. Gina is type O blood. These included the stains on the carpet lights, which is shoes, dust pan, mat, fridge, all

that shit. So the fridge couldn't be tested, sorry. The last three items were spattered by tiny droplets, blood spatter, not drops, not like dripping. Unlike the large drops, they said. The cleat of the golf shoe contained a Caucasian pubic hair, unlike that of Steve's, though. No such hairs from Gina were available for comparison, so they didn't know. They didn't have her pubes in a fucking brush, unfortunately. However, the embedded blood smeared on the

refrigerator door themselves, that was too worn out, but the five head hairs were identical to Gina's, the one they found in the fridge. The mat from the trunk of the Chevy contained Type O blood stains, head hairs identical to Gina's, and pubic hairs unlike his. Unlike Steve's. The blue towel found in the woods was stained with a Type O human blood, contained six head hairs identical to Gina, two pubic hairs unlike Steve's, and many synthetic fibers identical to those in the living room carpet. Someone's dropping pubes everywhere. Everywhere.

All over the place. The green plastic cap from the can of Dow cleaner contained a hair identical to Gina's. So we got a lot going on here. A lot of blood different places. The next day, they take the dog out again. They spread out six blue towels of similar appearance at the Radford High School Auditorium. Before the dog was admitted to the room, he was scented on Steve's underwear again. He ran in and ran immediately to the towel which had been found in the woods and refused to leave until ordered to do so. He's like, no, but this is the one. I found it. This is it. That's it. So that's a lot. So that means it not only has blood and hair, it also has the same scent as the underwear Steve sent.

It's got Steve's shit on it. July 12th, 1980, they take the dog, which had not been inside the police station here. This is at the Radford police station. They take it into the parking lot, which contained numerous vehicles. After the dog had been scented on the blue towel that had been found in the woods, he made a casting search through the parking lot until he came upon the driver's door handle of Steve's parked car. After pausing there, he tracked into the police station coming directly into the door of the

office, which where Steve was sitting. I know where he is. I found this motherfucker. I know where he lives. Motherfucker, I'm going to hunt you forever. I found his house And he had scrambled eggs for breakfast. I'm just I'm telling you now. I'm just showing off now. I'm just showing off. I know He might be pre-diabetic

So when informed of the dogs performance on these on all of this stuff They said they walked to your house from all the dead girls stuff for all the missing girls stuff They tracked from your car to here. They went right to here blah blah blah He put his head down on his arms. He just collapsed onto the table, which is the most guilty thing So bad irrigation room and repeated three times straight quote. That's a damn good dog room and repeated three times straight quote that's a damn good dog that's a damn good dog that's a damn good dog three times just shaking his head and burying his head in his hands that's a damn good dog that's a damn good dog we've had friendly the leg-finding dog. We've got some good dogs. This is a real good dog.

Nobody's ever told them they're a good dog though. Oh no, no. He's a damn good dog. He told him. Yeah, it's a good boy. That's a fucking good boy, man. Way to go, buddy. So a group of high school students from Christianburg found the blue and white stripe towel that was missing between the New River Valley shopping plaza and the river. A short distance away, they found all the clothes

Gina had worn that night too, tied into a damp bundle and stained with blood. Oh no. The clothes had been exposed to the weather until they were found on July 19th. So it's been a couple, three weeks here. They were found to be stained with blood, but by that time they couldn't determine the origin or type. But we can infer it's been a couple, three weeks here. They were found to be stained with blood, but by that time they couldn't determine the

origin or type. Well, we can infer it's probably hers. The jacket had blood stains on the right, yeah, now you can do it, on the right breast and in the shoulder blade area in the back, spreading across the right side. Shitloads of blood coming from someone's head. There's no holes in the jacket, so it's not like someone was stabbed through the jacket. This is coming down from the head. The trousers, the pants contain blood stains,

two head hairs identical to Gina, and one hair identical to Steve's. Now this is the head, comparison of hairs is such not an exact science, by the way. It really isn't. It's nowhere near. Back then, yeah, the shaft.

Back now it is, obviously. Back then, they would just look at them. If you use the same kind of really isn't. It's nowhere near. Now it is obviously. You use the same kind of shampoo. Yeah, similar. So they said like especially if you had like dark coarse hair, it's really hard to tell. The lighter the hair they said the easier and he's got light hair so that's helpful. Gina has type O, he has type A blood they said here. The synthetic fibers similar to those in the carpet of the Davis house were found in the trunk of the Chevy, on the door, in the blue towel, and on Gina's clothing, including her panties, including her underwear.

So her pants were off. Steve, at this time, is laying low in Ohio. After, that's a damn good dog, they didn't arrest him. Really? Nope, they let him go. He takes off to Ohio here. He had been in Roanoke hanging out at a friend's house here, and his friend requested that he keep a low profile so neighbors wouldn't know that he was there and he was harboring

this guy. So he spent a lot of time watching TV, left the house regularly to go running, usually at night or in the early morning when it was dark. He'd lift weights in a gym and do that. By early August, word got out that he was living there, so he receives a death threat in that week, a hand-delivered note to the mailbox saying, you got a fucking murder in here, we're going to kill him. Yeah, you got to get out of town. Followed up by a strongly worded anonymous phone call as it's put to the home appreciate you leaving

So Epperly decides to move to Columbus, Ohio Sneaking out and under the cover of darkness on the August 5th. He said he did it for safety reasons He goes there his older sister Vicki lives there. I guess Investigators were informed that he had gone there. Oh, that's Vicki, I'm sorry, told them that he went there. Say I had that mixed up in my notes. So Stephen here and family relative, he has relatives there.

One was his cousin, Ray, and his wife, Dolores, Ray's wife. And so he's gonna go there. So he's hanging out. While he's living there, five days after he gets there, a 25 year old woman named Vicky coke goes missing. Oh Yeah, she's an attractive school teacher last seen on August 10th at her apartment in the Apple Ridge apartment complex in Circleville Ohio the windows and door to her apartment were locked and there's no forced entry as if she willingly let the guy into the place Her abandoned car was discovered a few days later a mile away

A month later her body was found hidden in a cornfield next to the township They had no evidence of anything that could do that But where the car is everything is so similar to Vagina Hall. It's fucking really and it's five days after he got there So they're searching for the body. They're thinking it might have been in the water. They pictured an entrapment scenario where her body had potentially been dumped in the river and eventually become trapped underwater below an undercurrent, an undercut boulder, and then held submerged by a steady current.

They won't let it go off. So they get giant fucking lights so they could see, they get helicopters so they can see everything. They search this place up and down and they can't find shit. Not a fucking thing. No, they cannot find her anyway. So police end up calling off the search for her. They looked everywhere they could. They said there's nowhere else to look. There's no new developments. And they said they have to call it all off. There's no tip. We'll dig somewhere or look somewhere, but yeah, we're not going to actively search.

That sucks. So her father puts up a reward. And now like people come out of the woodwork looking for it because they all want the reward. And so he told the cops, I'd appreciate it if you play up the reward. Let's get some volunteers out here. I want to find my daughter. So they said that their water in this area was shallow enough that you could see the bottom except where holes are. So they said, you know, they looked in those holes.

They tried to dive and do all that. They couldn't find anything. So they finally decide to arrest Steve in September. They finally arrest him him which is wild. Three months later? Yeah. Now there's only been one case in Virginia history where someone's been charged without a body. One case? One case but that is a completely different story. That was in 1967. It was the murders of a brother and sister. The bodies were never found but two men were convicted of the slayings because

One of them or there was three suspects and one of them turned states evidence and told on the others So they had somebody saying what happened that's different than just nobody and they're saying I don't know what you're talking about So it's very different. This is the first time they're ever gonna charge someone with murder with no witnesses with no body Oh, this is the first in Virginia history here. So it's a big fucking deal Yeah The prosecutor said as far as proving a death without a body when the facts and circumstances At hand are clearly indicated death occurred and it was by criminal means then you can proceed with the prosecution They said the amount of blood found in her car at the lake house on a very

nasty weapon also that matic, that fucking pickaxe. They said plus her unexplained absence for no reason, no history of emotional problems, no history of running away, didn't use her money. Yeah, it's a little bit crazy. Her clothes from that night with soaked in blood. I mean, that's a problem. That's a problem. And the dog going right to his house. So he writes the judge a letter, Steve. He's not having this.

He says, dear sir, I would strongly request that the case of the Commonwealth of Virginia versus Stephen M. Epperly be terminated immediately? The following reasons will support and will qualify my request. My attorneys, he names them, have not followed my request and desires in this proceeding. They are and have been totally unprepared for a case of this magnitude. The following examples, case in point, and methods used by my attorneys will prove my claim. Since my first meeting on September 10, 1980 until the present time my many many

requests for dog experts blood experts have been ignored and refused by my attorneys. As to the best of my knowledge the first time my attorneys contacted a dog expert was after I gave them a telephone in Kansas and also pleaded with them to contact a bland correction dog handler. After the contact was made, these people were not subpoenaed, even though the information could have been very helpful. The only contact was made by phone and it was after the trial had commenced. My opinion is this is an example of gross neglect regarding my defense.

I need a dog expert. I need a dog expert, yeah. So he also asked that the jury be sequestered to the extensive publicity that the case has received He said all this he's going it's a long thing here I begged them many times to go over to the lake house But they did not think it pertinence pertinent to the case The first time they saw the inside of the house was on December 10th 1980 the same day that it's he's fucking out of his mind so 10th, 1980, the same day that he's fucking out of his mind. So the trial comes up and they're going to trial, like I said, first, no body, no crime.

And they said that the way they made it okay is they're saying that the, they say, quote, worldwide communication and travel today are so facile that a jury may properly take into account the unlikelihood that an absent person in view of his health habits, disposition and general personal relationships would voluntarily flee, go underground and remain out of touch with friends and family. The unlikelihood of such a voluntary disappearance is circumstantial evidence entitled to weigh equal to that of blood stains and concealment of evidence." So they said the fact that a body was never recovered, they said the fact that a murderer

may successfully dispose of the victim, the body of the victim does not entitle him to an acquittal. That is one form of success for which society has no reward. You're very good at hiding bodies. You're not getting any medals for that. I'm sure on Easter you're wonderful, but today you go to jail. You're very good at hiding bodies. You're not getting any medals for that. I'm sure on Easter you're wonderful, but today you go to jail. So a forensics expert here testifies she determined blood found in the trunk of the car in and

around the lake house matched the blood type of Gina. Blood stains matching her blood were found on the mattock, the golf shoe, the den, the carpet, the blue towel, the light switch. She said she could not determine the type of blood that was found on her clothing and or the other areas of the house, including walkways outside, a refrigerator, a chair leg and a giant stain and the fucking thing. That's a problem. Yeah.

We can assume they're all related though, because they weren't there before. Yeah, they're probably all the same. Yeah. She said she also found hairs matching Gina's, Gina in the trunk of the car, refrigerator door, slacks, towel, cap of the bottle, cleaning fluid, of cleaning fluid. So the evidence, they bring in evidence of her character because they have to bring that in to show that she wouldn't run away for no reason. Right.

Because the defense's whole defense is she's not even dead. What are you talking about? Crazy. So they have to say what a, you know know upstanding person she is because she never disappears She wouldn't disappear and now he's gonna object to that saying that it's you know prejudicing the jury talking about what a wonderful person She is the dog Defense lawyers say that the tracking dog was used 11 days after miss Hall disappeared and heavy rain

Periodically through that time should have washed the scent away and they don't buy any of this dog shit for a minute. How the fuck did the dog go to his house then? How to know where he lives? I mean, I'm more convinced by the dog than I am by the man that knew about the blanket. The dog is so, that dog don't speak English, man. Nope, it just knows that this guy lives here and I'll find him anywhere. So they interview the Captain Williams, this guy, it's a cross-examination here by the

defense counsel and they said, you went down there and talked to him, meaning Steve, before you went to the cabin. And he said, yes, sir. And what discussions did you have? And he said in reference to taking a polygraph, because he said, just clear yourself, take a polygraph and we'll clear you and that'll be that and then he said what happened after that did you see him anymore that day and he said I don't recall seeing him anymore until later that night so after he's excused

this lawyer questions two more witnesses and then he moves for a mistrial because two witnesses ago this police captain mentioned the word polygraph. Seems like that would have been much more effective if the second he said polygraph, you said, mis-trial, mis-trial, polygraph. You're not allowed to put that in there, but instead, he waits then. On the fourth day of the trial, he writes the judge a letter requesting that his counsel be relieved and move for a mis-trial and the appointment of new counsel. Call a mis- appointment of new counsel. Call a mistrial new counsel.

The court denied the motion and said that the counsel had been giving him an energetic and effective representation. Now the case goes to the jury at 4.35 p.m. on an afternoon without any defense at all. The defense puts up no witnesses. Really? Which happens sometimes.

They'll say we have no witnesses and they just depend on their closing. You have to prove that I murdered somebody with no body and circumstantial evidence. We aren't gonna say shit. You go ahead. Exactly. Their thing is they didn't prove it. That's what they said. They didn't prove shit.

And later on he said, we're not required to when we just decided not to, is what the defense attorney said. But they do have closing arguments. In closing, the prosecutor told the jury that he believed that Steve persuaded Gina to leave the Marriott Inn about 1230, drove to the house, attempted to have sex with Gina,

but was rebuffed. And then he beat her to death, wrapped her in a bloody quilt, and somehow hit it. He said, that's what brought it all here, sex. This man's raw desire for her and her rebuff and he killed her. He had to have done it. That's your only conclusion, that he beat her to death. Goodness knows how many times he had to hit her before he did her in.

Oh, God. Yep, he had told police that he was with her that night, but she did it. Come on. The defense in their closing argument said the only link between them is one head hair found on her pants that was similar to him. And that's true, actually. They don't have anything else, really,

because he didn't bleed or anything like that, so there's no, they have one head hair connecting the actual scenes that they found and him. Okay, now, no body, one hair. And a whole lot of the most circumstantial evidence of all time, like he's got a mountain on him. It's not good. It's so much.

Yeah, we could just get him DNA and it'd be done today. It'd be easy, but the verdict comes in, guilty of first degree murder. So it's the first time in history in Virginia that they do this. No body, no crime, as old Bob Marley would say. So sentencing comes around, and maybe he should have taken that 20,

because you, sir, may fuck off life in prison with parole, but life. I thought they were gonna fucking hang him. No, no, no. No, they definitely can't go for the death penalty without a body. They knew that was a stretch. They're like, they'll convict him, but kill him?

There are people who go, what if she just pops up one day after we execute him? Dude, if I'm a lawyer. She's like, man, I've been in San Tropez for the last five years. My tan is great. I just needed to get away from all this bullshit. We're really gonna have egg on our face.

I went on a date with that guy. I left his house on my way home, a very rich man. Just took me to San Tropez and said, throw your clothes in the ocean. We're going. Fuck your Monte Carlo. Hopped into my Ferrari, we're going to the airport. And next thing you know, here I am. You can't kill a guy. If I'm a lawyer, I'd stand on that. Let that person walk in here today, I'll do his time for him. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. I'll go into jail for him. Now the jurors, they talked to them after, was it hard to, you know, was it difficult

decision? And they said, not at all. They said there was no doubt once they all the jury was in complete agreement as soon as they started deliberations One jury said jurors said everything fell into place. We didn't have any reasonable doubt I was hoping he was guilty or I wasn't hoping he was guilty But I was hoping we wouldn't get into a situation of guilty or not guilty So he said yeah

They said as the evidence mounted added to it and pieced it together until the end There was no bond to link all the pieces together. He said really it was a combination of the whole thing that did it. I couldn't take one part and say that did it, but certainly the testimony about the dog was a very important factor. He said believe it or not I had formed no opinion when I went into the courtroom this morning.

Tried to not deliberate beforehand. It was only 90 minutes of deliberating which isn't very long He said when we came into the courtroom, we wanted to give him as much as possible So yeah He so there we go. Now he wants after this. He said well, give me another polygraph. I'll pass this one Okay, cuz that's all we have He said I was told that the tests of my polygraph were inconclusive and then later on they're telling everybody that they're that I failed Yeah, yeah

He said he accused the guy of embellishing the results and trying and so he wanted a Hearing to get another lie detector test which does nothing to do with legalities Yeah, he said I took the test in July 80 if I flunked it so badly Why'd they wait till September 9th to arrest me? Good question. They're not admissible in court, that's why. Yeah, but they should, he might have killed a girl while he was like waiting for them. That's the problem here. He said he wanted to take a new lie detector test because he thought the test was tainted by the fact that it was given by state police. He said he believes state police manipulated the test they

gave him and because they wanted so desperately to arrest somebody for such a nice young girl's death. So he said independent lie detector, fucking bring it on. He said I'm innocent. I'm very disappointed. I did not receive a fair trial. So he wants to appeal based on insufficient, insufficient evidence. He said there's no malice, which is a requirement for first degree murder, because he said, how can you prove malice if you don't even know what I did to her? Can't prove that. Testimony about the tracking dog that followed the scent. He said that's unreliable.

Character witness testimony about her should be ruled irrelevant. Comments by police officers on the witness stand about the harshness of a sentence should be judged prejudicial, the mention of a polygraph test, and these shit court-appointed attorneys I had. And I didn't get my change of venue. All those things. I'd like some peas, please. Yep. So they talk about that.

He said, we hold that dog tracking evidence, this is the court, is admissible in a criminal case after a proper foundation has been laid to show the handler was qualified to work with the dog They said in here we were happy with what they brought in. Yeah, that's it He also says that the officers were told and this is true the prosecutor before the trial instructed the Three police officers not to speak with the defense counsel Which is crazy. You can't do that about anything. Don't help them. Don't talk to counsel, which is crazy. You can't do that. About what?

About anything, don't help them, don't talk to them, which is ridiculous because you're a cop, you get paid with tax dollars, so you work just as much for someone accused of murder as you do for the district attorney. You work for the same amount. So you don't have a dog in this race. Your dog should be justice, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, truth, honesty. dog in this race. Your dog should be justice. You know what I'm saying? Truth. Honesty. Truth. Yeah. So apparently the counsel failed to interview the three officers or to renew a witness gag and contention. One of the officers later testified against him and during the subsequent hearing, the prosecutor admitted that even after the Supreme Court modified the order, he may very well have instructed officers not to speak with defense counsel. So that's actually bad. The court says, who cares?

Fuck them. Affirm. We don't give a shit. Yup. It's a unanimous decision. He says that he's pissed off. He says, quote, I'm going to take it as far as I can until I get a fair trial. I'll take it all the way to the Supreme Court.

Quote, I was framed. I can prove this dog did not lead anyone to my house. And then they said, well, what proof do you have? And he said, you'll see it in court, which he never has. Wait and see. Yeah. People, when they have evidence, they cannot wait to show it to you, generally. You know what I mean?

So he said that he didn't get a fair trial. The jurors were allowed to go home each night and were exposed to news accounts He said it was the main event. The spotlight was on that jury 1985 okay still no Gina They bring in more psychics here and they don't find her more psychics more psychics People would say the sister said people would say they had a dream or a vision and then the cops would have to check it out, because who the fuck knows. Never find it though.

One guy, Frank Connor, who's the Pulaski County Sheriff, says it's not a mystery where she is. No? He said quote, I know where she is. Frank. Put the handcuffs on that man right now. Yeah, lock him up. Turn around.

Put him in the same tent as him. Yeah, where's the dog? Her ass? Get over here, sniff his ass, would you? Right the handcuffs on that man right now turn around Yeah, where's the dog? Sniff his ass would you they were together that night then he said I know where she is the dump oh He said that Epperly slipped her body into a trash bin. He said I've seen them empty those things They don't look at what's inside big dumpster boom outside of a store or something so um empty those things. They don't look at what's inside. Big dumpster. Boom. Outside of a store or something. So, yeah, the whole thing's a fucking mess when they're looking for it, too. The reward went up to $12,000. So they said bounty hunters, kids, teenagers, college kids. The one guy said the woods were full of people. It was mass confusion. Everyone was out to claim reward money She's just off shot in the woods. Yeah

Accidentally or on purpose 91 1991 Eperly's attorneys say that the dog handler is a fraud. He's a fraud Yep, they say he lied about his credentials and may have faked his dogs tracking abilities as well. Okay Yeah, the he in a 1986 hearing, the handler, Preston, admitted it was possible his dog was trailing the scent of a police officer instead of Epperly. It was possible. Okay. That's not good. Yeah.

So they said now there's evidence that Preston lied about his training. His attorney says, this is Epperly's attorney, he should have never been allowed to testify, much less as an expert in dog tracking. They said that his testimony destroyed the fundamental fairness of the trial and tainted the whole thing. Because the dog is what the jury said, you know, locked it in. But this isn't really new evidence. In 1983, the Roanoke Times and World News revealed that Preston's credentials were questioned by other dog experts. Many of the cases he testified in were being thrown out because indications that he faked tracking results. That's not good.

They filed an inch thick stack of affidavits, letters and transcripts indicating that Preston lied about credentials, faked his dog's abilities. Much of the new evidence was gathered for a murder appeal in, of course, Arizona. The evidence presented there prompted the Arizona judge to order a new trial and denounce Preston as a this is a judge said this, a superior court judge, a liar, a charlatan and a fraud. Oh shit. This is not good at all. An Arizona judge said that? That's what I'm saying. Wow. That takes in 1990. That takes a lot. You you gotta be a real piece of shit in 1990. You gotta be a real asshole for them to say that to a cop. Fife Symington was around. Oh God, yeah.

They were on like their fourth straight indicted governor at that point, it was a fucking disaster. Wow, so that's how that goes, and they say, nah, fuck off still, his appeal gets thrown out anyway. 2020 here, with the help of a forensic anthropologist out of Tennessee Delana here says she has found some of Gina's DNA and remains really in 2016 a farmer's grandson here Reported to the Radford Police Department that his family had held a secret since 1980.

He said his grandfather witnessed what he believed to be two men dismembering a body in Meadow Creek and that they were driving in a white van. He believed the woman to be Gina Hall and that's what sparked the search. The sister said, and that's when the miracles began. That's when the truth came unveiled. That's when pieces of the puzzle started showing up and started fitting together and now I have the truth it's like if I need something or I need another piece of the puzzle it comes so she they I guess this is a forensic anthropologist Dr. our pod boss who invented an instrument

to detect DNA beneath buried beneath the Since then, Gina's remains have been discovered across eight locations throughout the New River Valley using that device. Get out of here. Yep. What we would like to do is take each one of those locations and start zeroing in by the miles and I would just pull over and let him out and let him just scan until he narrowed it right Until the feet away to the very location They found her DNA on top of Draper Mountain at a lake house on Claydor Lake Yeah lake house on hazel hollow road along Meadow Creek, and they found part of one of Gina's bones At at the exact place where Epperly used to hunt every weekend

They say that some of the locations were there were on their radar back then at the exact place where Epperle used to hunt every weekend. They say that some of the locations were on their radar back then, but not all of them. And she said, when people come to understand what this instrument is, it's a world changer. That's what I like to share. Just imagine we're not looking at cold cases. We're trying to find children that have gone missing. This is huge. So, not only did the instrument hit on Gina's DNA, also hit on another young lady's DNA with Gina. Angela Radar, who went missing from Roanoke in 1977, they thought she was a runaway and they stopped fucking looking for her.

Do you think he got all three of these girls? Yep. They said, do we have proof? No, but we have an instrument that we put in a sample of Angela from her family and we find her on a ridge near the same valley we find her in a different location that we are currently investigating and we find her at the creek. That tells me we've got more victims and we've only checked Gina and Angela. Unbelievable. Yeah, that's at least three probably. Wow.

2021, he's up for geriatric parole what he's 69. He's up for geriatric Geriatric enough. That's yeah. Come on, bro Geriatric in your 60s guys got t-times and jogging appointments. Yeah rides a fucking Harley It's no problem. We're talking about Does yard work and rides are like Dad rides a fucking Harley. He's 67, it's no problem. What are you talking about? Does yard work and rides a Harley. This is crazy.

69 and a Jerry, fuck you. He has been periodically reviewed to see if he's eligible for parole. And he's not. They never give it to him. They never give him a hearing. Virginia outlawed parole, but his thing is before that happened.

Okay, grandfather did. So yeah, one of the guys here. This is a Griffith which one is he the oh the common Commonwealth attorney Justin Griffith He said mr. Epperly should know by now that as long as I'm in office We will meet him at the gates of parole with a visceral objection Yeah That's he was last turned down for parole in 2019 and he has turned down again and he said I'm sure Richmond will give him another chance and I am damn

sure we'll be ready to fight that one as well. Now there's a book about this whole thing called Under the Tressel by Ron Peterson jr. and had some good information in it that we used here so good good job on that, Ron Peterson Jr. So there you go. That is Radford, Virginia, and one fucked up beast of a bitch of a case. Probably a serial killer. Yeah. If they found those three, there's more.

Oh, yeah. Think about over time. He's been to colleges. He's been here, there, close. Who the fuck knows? The thing about murderers like that, when rape is the thing, when you're caught twice now, you got to make sure that you can't get caught you learn what happened caught That's what happens the killers progress in their shit They oh I can't do that that gets me caught right you kill them and they don't tell on nobody says a thing

And then they found that girl's body and oh no Oh if they don't find a body then it's easier because that was before that so oh boy yeah it's it's disturbing so I don't know how many fucking girls this guy might have killed but I think it's a few I got it so many we have no idea in the 70s and early 80s how many of these people are out there without DNA we're never gonna know so there you go everybody if you enjoyed that story you're a sick fuck but you're also our kind of sick fuck because it was a well-told, crazy, interesting story. I understand.

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Then we're gonna go down a huge rabbit hole for small-town murder And this is a crazy conspiracy rabbit hole of was Charles Manson actually a CIA asset that did everything he did at the bequest of the At the CIA to ruin whatever so we'll talk all about that and some other CIA related murder things a guy Spent 20 years trying to flesh this theory out and pretty much ruined his life So we'll talk all about that. Patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of that. You also want to follow us on social media. Yeah.

Do that. We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Small Town Pot on Facebook, at Murder Small on Twitter. Follow us there. Do all of that and get your shout out if you should subscribe on Patreon. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the most wonderful fucking people in the world who would never ever ever dismember us and bury us with other people.

Please hit me with them now. Well this week's executive producers are Teresa Fernandez, Jordan Bennett, Rebecca Mitchell, Jill King, Tyler Russell, Deirdre Robinson, Janice Kraft, Khalifa Goodwin, Olive and Wine Boutique, Christine Lake, Kyle Buell, Michael Wojciciu, Linda Craft, Shannon Proctor, Kristi Kelly, Claude Cavallo, Margaret Lawrence, George Defyze, Kaitlyn Ayers and Erin Himes, Kyle Norwig, Celia O'Brien, Jacob Carabou, Isaiah Archuleta, and Jennifer,

our friend Jennifer's son, Logan passed away and I'm terribly sorry about that. Thank you all so much for hanging out with us. You guys going above and beyond is like, I can't tell you guys how incredible you guys are. You guys are really the best. Truly. Seriously.

The live show was terrific. We had some issues. The way you guys come through to like extra support the show is like... You're fucking awesome. Honestly. We were pretty destroyed and pretty upset with some of the things. For five minutes out of two and a half hours, which is ridiculous. We didn't want to...

We didn't want to do that. We don't want to leave anything on the table that looks shitty to you guys. We want to put together a perfect show for you. We're things happen. And you guys were incredible. Thank you. Thank you. That's all. Thank you. Thank you. Other producers this week, Tiffany Ellison, Sharon Durer, Kathy Murphy, Rachel Bell, Catherine Collado, Shannon De Silva, Dirty Dick, Darrell Dingus, Bill and Mandy, Bompiani, Nikita Escobar Jamie man been shy of mancha Michelle Neff Caitlin young is that Caitlin it is Caitlin. Jamie Jones Anna carapace carapace carapace Carapace carapace. I don't know. I don't know. It's Italian. I pronounce it carapace. It'll be cool

Nathan Foster is all about you're right. Yeah, it's Greek with a K. It's no it's a C. It'll be cool. Nathan Foster is, oh, I bet you're right. Yeah. I think it's Greek. With a K, it's Greek. No, it's a C. That's what I thought it was Italian. It's still probably Greek. So I'll say, and some bunch of fucking vowels. It's possible, maybe shortened too.

Yeah, maybe. Nathan Foster, Lori Nack, Naick maybe, Brian Bustard, Bustard, Marissa, Marissa Silikic, Silichie, Silik, Christie Dietrich, Silic, Christy Dietrich, Anna Lee, Brianna Studabaker, Juniper Moon Farm, Kaitlyn Wilson, Liz Vasquez, Matthew Hankel,

Peyton Meadows, Captain Lou Albano, Esquire the Shockmaster, Little League Coach of the Year. Falling through the fucking drywall, good job. Little League Coach of the Year, Morris Buttercrud, Morgan McPherson, Andrew Wellmers, George Defyce. I said that. Janice Hill. Yeah.

Reid Wilson, Tanner Miracle. Is that right? I may have, that may be a correction. Auto-corrected. Yeah, it's possible. Afton P., Chris Powell, Julie Fobion. Anna Alford, Robin Hintonuous. Hintonuous, Hilton, Hilton, Hilton, Hilton, Hilton, Hilton, Hilton

Nutris. Oh, that's a weird night. I'm hooting and I'm neutering. Madeline Porca, Porca Sword, Porca Zawinski, Porca Sword. Porca Sorus. I like that sounds great. I want to eat the Porca Sorus. I like porkasaurus. I like that sounds great. I want to eat the porkasaurus. Jane Seely, Cynthia James, Tracy Schlake, Christina Smith, Leah Montgomery, Clarissa Jones, Tony Stroop, Jeffrey Warren, Charles Reeves, Kenneth Tackett, Denise Gibbs, Ian Parkes, David Freese,

Ben Fletcher, Lisa Lundow, Stroander Melissa Mooney Davis Butler Misty Webster Billy Duncan Zack would know last name Cynthia Spears Willie Skelly William Skelly Willie Skelly Christina a ton a ton Jenny Megs meegs Melina Denno Niecy would know last name Maria W no it's just Marie W Amy Tucson Tussin she might be yeah. Amy Toussaint, Tussin, she might be, Tussin, it's some Tussin. From the Roba Tussin fortune. Bobby with no last name, Victor Schneider, Jeremy Roberson, Amy Fenton.

Tussin money. Oh, get some of that Tussin. Laura with no last name, Lindsay Gin, Kieran Badoja, Bedola, Willie Wiltonking, Aaron Hodges, Scott Hawkins, Ollie Rex, Kaitlyn King, Debbie O'Donnell, Lisa Ingram, Scott Conyers, Alastair Milne, Natalie with no last name, Ben Patterson, Paterson maybe, James Huck, Karen Gillespie, Brenda Cocotte, Ramiro Perez, Kelly Beck, Joseph Hartigan Jr., Elizabeth Overby, Jodie Mason, Daniel Vickery, John Jerashutech, Autumn Broils, Sarah Williams, Matt Edwards, Phaedra

Carmella, Erica Schmidt, Martin would know last name, Devin Zuck, Sam would know last name. Devin Zook. Sam would know last name. Lee Van Cornette. Heather Wright. Stephanie Sagey. Rachel J. Talia Shaw Booker. Connor Sandifer. Taylor Monroe. Nicole Strickland. Mickey Klingenberger. Klingenberg. Elena would know last name. Kimberly McKnight. Crystal would know last name. Keery would know last name. McKnight Krista would know last name Keery would know last name Mark Selaski Katherine Walker Julie Cargill not your North Carolina pilot I don't know what that means Mark would know last name Bria Bria Celeste Kate Carrick. He'll Karee Co Courtney brashard Gally Gally Langerac gang Langer Langerac Susan would know last last name, Kerry Bean, Collin Cox, Madeline Bryant, Terry, Jerry, Tony with no last name, Callie Ann Giochiaro, Ann Giochiaro, Ann McMahon, Lee Nelson, Laura

Mazuka, Trevor Green, Jonathan Kunce, Jen with no last name, Christopher Booth, Isaiah Archuleta, Sean Jernigan, H. Pittman, Heather Peshek, Dallas Lutmer, that's right, Kristen Blevins, hello, Brooke with no last name, Melissa Pike, Stacey with no last name, is it supposed to, it's Kirsten I think, all right, doesn't matter, Stacey with no last name, Amy Smith, Roxanne Lance, Melanie Bowling, Kathy Nielsen, Vanessa Revelas, Justin Merchant, Michael Crossman, Levi Styles, Brandon Clark, Chris Charlie, Charlie Sims, Bailey Robinson, Caleb Go-Stars, hashtag Go-Stars.

Rebecca, I think that's the North Stars, James. I think probably, yeah. Rebecca Basseguera, Basseguera. Hilary Harris, Zach Raids, Ress, Cynthia Wolf, Tracy P., Heather Daniel, Melissa, with no last name, Deborah Williams, Via Abira, Cooper Williams, Ariel Lee, oh boy, Nazgul, Nazgulay, Diana Davidson, Jimmy Jabs, what? Rebecca Ross, no I do not. Lisa Halooch, Ellen Crane, Roberto, Robert, Diana Davidson, Jimmy Jabs, what? Uh, Rebecca Ross, no, I do not. Uh, Lisa Halooch, Ellen Crane, Ra- Roberto, Robert, Robert, Boozo.

Robert, holy shit. Uh, Gwendolyn Hammerson, James Ford, Matthew White, Jen Frisch, Talia S, Jude Cope, uh, Copay maybe, uh, Cassandra Nolan, Brad, Brad Gilchrist, Leanne Fell, Tiffany with no last name, Amy Mott, Knox Bog, Katie Poblacki, Judy Reynolds Bailey Desjardarnis, Donny Genovese, Kyle Allison, T.M. Dutch, 1965, Kaitlyn Ann Dalton, Joshua Doherty, Alyssa Cullen, Headied for you? What does that mean? Cindy, Cindy Lundy, Melissa Matson, Jesse Nelson, Jacob Nelens, Alton P. Clark, Skyler Smith, Therese with no last name, Kelly with no last name, Lisa with no last name, Nora

with no last name, Susan McFarland, Brian Henrik, Heinrich maybe, Mark, no that's Marina, Mara's Ozza, Mark Turnage, Kyle Frohman, Brittany Zorn, Stephanie Riddle, Jolene with no last name, Kristy with no last name, Ryan Sushemi, Sue Semehmi, Sue Masahee, Jessica Richardson, Mike and Carl Christensen, Michelle, Lauren Stevens, Misty Hughes, Dees with no last name. I imagine it's Nuts, Clayton Kreitz, Juan Apolinar, Matt P, Debra Phipps, TJ Minker, Hey K, Tony Kozlowski, Catherine De Los Santos, Graham with know last name. Jeremy Z Tim would know last name. Spencer Peterson, Jenny, Jenny Gilbert, Taylor van Epps, poop liquor, James Taylor, Richens, May V. Finally.

Dennis Metier, Troy would know last name. Tino would know last name. Angie would know last name. Jennifer Fairweather, Jade Palace guard, Steven Keating, Dana Perkins, and Kerry Washington, but more importantly, all of our patrons. Thank you so much. Thank you, you wonderful, wonderful group of fantastic lunatics. We fucking love you so much.

Thanks for what you do for us. Holy shit. Thanks for always swarming around us and having our backs whenever we need you. We really fucking appreciate that. You wanna follow us on social media. It's all at shutupandgimmemurder.com. There's links to everything. Do that, keep coming back.

Listen to Crime and Sports, listen to your stupid opinions, and we'll be with you all fucking week. Have fun. Can't wait. Do that shit, and until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye! If you like Small Town Murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music.

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