Some More News - Why The Depp-Heard Verdict Makes No Sense, George Carlin, and EVEN MORE Simpsons Memes

Episode Date: June 3, 2022

Hi. New York Times culture reporter Dave Itzkoff (@ditzkoff) joins Katy and Cody to talk about the TV streaming wars, George Carlin's lasting influence on politics, and why the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard verdict is a huge setback for victims of abuse, women, logic, and everyone else not already mentioned. Please fill out our SURVEY: HTTP://kastmedia.com/survey/ We now have a MERCH STORE! Check it out here: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/somemorenews Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/some-more-news/id1364825229 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6ebqegozpFt9hY2WJ7TDiA?si=5keGjCe5SxejFN1XkQlZ3w&dl_branch=1 Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/even-more-news Athletic Greens will give you an immune-supporting FREE 1 year supply of Vitamin D AND 5 free travel packs with your first purchase if you visit http://athleticgreens.com/morenews today. Ready to give your brain some TLC? Download Best Fiends FREE today on the App Store or Google Play. That's friends, without the r—Best Fiends.Support the show!: http://patreon.com.com/somemorenewsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello and welcome back to even more news the first and only news podcast I said it before I said it now and I'll say it one more time we are the first and only news podcast my name is Katie Stoll that's right you'll say it yeah it's not true which is never hi I'm Cody Johnston what's up with you Katie Stoll Johnson what's up with you katie stole johnson what's up with me yeah so many things oh but the first thing that's up with me is introducing our guest this week we're very excited to welcome dave itzkoff culture reporter for the new york times hi this is where everyone's like going yeah yeah you just dub that in later the riotous applause awesome yeah yeah thank you for having me calm down be cool we know this is a big get no no it's cool it's cool

the the roses at my feet were really unnecessary we've got great fans we'll throw them away then compost them though don't throw them in the trash it's'm sure that's bad. Put it in the green bin. Dave, we've got lots of great things to talk about. But the first great thing we have to talk about is the holidays. Yeah, great things. Every day is a holiday. Today, the day that we are recording, June 2nd, it's National Bubba Day. National Bubba Day on June 2nd each year recognizes all those who lovingly call Bubba in our lives.

Do you guys call anybody bubba at all i've had some boobies no no this isn't for that this isn't that no no yeah no no bubba's i regret to say yeah i call my dog babbo sometimes just because it's like a nonsense word that's cute to me but i think this is just be national pet name day i call benny i don't think i've ever called him bubba i might have he's more like bb benny bean things like that yeah okay this one's a dud but june 3rd however is national repeat day so that's better which means i guess i'm just gonna repeat june 2nd well Well, June 2nd is National Bubba Day. This one's for everybody with a Bubba in your life.

This feels like. Does anybody here call anybody Bubba? I had a Bubby. Okay. Yeah, not a Bubba. That's cool. I call my dog Bobbo sometimes. I probably called Benny Bubba, but usually it's something more like BB or like a Benny Bean.

Oh, gosh, guys. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We just organically did the Monty Python Deja Vu sketch. Flawlessly improvised it. I'm very impressed with us. Or you. I didn't do anything.

This is why we talk about the holidays. It's all been leading to this. You know, you never know what kind of gold you're going to get today on National Repeat Day. Okay. That's been fun. But now let's talk about you for a little bit, Dave. For your job. You watch a lot of TV.

I think that goes without saying. All the TV, in fact. It was great to be able to find a way to finally monetize. I was already kind of doing that, you know, from I want to say age six or seven on, like when I was old enough to have my own key to my family apartment and I would get home at, you know, three o'clock and throw a Celeste pizza in the microwave and watch five to 10 hours of television until bedtime. And yeah, now I get to write about it for a living. And I can still make the Celeste pizzas

if my mommy says it's okay. If I have permission to use the microwave. It's pretty incredible when that happens. And we're very lucky. I think that Cody and I are in a similar boat of like being in a world where like, yeah, these things that we grew up caring about have ended up being our career. And I mean, although sometimes I don't know if you have this experience, does it become work again? Like watching TV is a hobby that you enjoy. But when you have to do it for work, is it like a little bit of a buzzkill? Not necessarily. Only only to the extent that because I write these recaps of Saturday Night Live, I always have to be on Saturday nights and not make like plans to go out on the weekends, which sometimes to my wife's dismay. out on the weekends which sometimes to my wife's dismay uh but but other than that no it you know it's it's it's been really interesting to watch i think it kind of like i think maybe we'll talk

about this more today but i feel like it kind of crested in a way like there was there just seemed to be so much content just everywhere and so many different shows to keep up with that were pleasurable for for a while we we we all kind of lived through the the era of like peak tv the sort of golden age of of streaming and there were a lot of great choices and then but it did kind of it has kind of felt like in the last year or so maybe that like we we hit a wall that there was just there's a lot of it and not of like consistently high quality they're just volume so that was actually a really good setup for the next part of my questions here was and this is a really hard one but what should i be watching right now i feel stymied oftentimes as to what I should. There's so much.

There's so much of it. And it's for a long time. I was able to use the zeitgeist as my barometer. And really, I'm like, OK, well, this is what everybody's watching. But there's so much. And so it's harder for something to take hold. For example, here's where I bring up my favorite show. Listeners of this podcast will be thrilled.

It's time once again, once again. Patriot on Amazon. Have you had the pleasure of watching that? I cannot go with you there. I'm not I'm not here. I'm not here to shame you. You don't like it. No, it's just, you know, everybody's choices are very particular that like.

Yeah, that's one that I've already invoked. But I yeah, I never I just never got into it. But it's fine. I'm not going to judge you for that. We're a safe space here for for people from and and and we know you've got good taste. You are a culture writer. provider but but i but my point kind of being with that was i didn't i wasn't aware of amazon i wasn't aware of amazon if only i wasn't aware of patreon patriot uh until well after it had finished airing because you know again the zeitgeist didn't catch hold but to me and to other patriot fans it's an incredible show that just took a while to find its audience. Yeah, and that certainly is one of the pleasures of streaming in general. At least we have the perception

that these things, when they're in a library, presumably they're going to stay there. We can go back to them three months, six months, a year, and even if we don't catch something during like, you know, the white hot period when like most people seem to be watching it, we can go back to it later or wait for a season to be complete and watch it, you know, in, you know, one big session or, you know, a couple of medium sized binges and like

that, like that, that aspect of the habit, you know, is pleasurable. But yeah, I feel like, like the number of shows that really sort of, at least that are currently being made and available to people that like deserve that kind of place in in like our like you said the zeitgeist in our kind of like cultural headspace it doesn't seem like it's at like there are still standouts every once in a while even like one or two shows a season i think is is satisfying but it doesn't it doesn't feel like they're happening with the same kind of like consistency yeah and do you think it's like kind of i mean it always sort of comes back to this for me is like companies like disney sort of like just

yeah throwing as much out there as possible and like like katie you're talking about like you you can't really trust the zeitgeist anymore and like i find that too because it's not like oh check out this show it's like oh the new x show is coming out the new the new this that's getting promoted show and it doesn't seem like there's a lot of room for just a unique new kind of thing like patriot again sounds great i'll give it a shot eventually but that's like not it's not a brand right it's not like a franchise it's not gonna get the the most people talking about it and that's sort of how uh these things spread is like are enough people talking about it and if they are then that's what gets the attention but i just find it like yeah

i think a few things happen i think i think that is part of it, that basically you had these big players, essentially, you know, Netflix, Disney, Amazon, you know, getting HBO and now HBO, Discovery, Max, whatever, you know, they've become all like, you know, all getting into this space more or less at once, Netflix, you know, more first, but everybody and just throwing tons of money at it. And so, you know, almost everything. I mean, yes, there are experiences people had of not getting shows picked up, but so much stuff got greenlit. And so there was this kind of gold rush mentality. And, you know, Disney obviously is focused on their specific franchise brands, Marvel, Star Wars, you know, those existing IPs.

And, you know, Netflix, even though they didn't have something like that for a while, they were still kind of, you know, minting at least cultural coin that they always seem to find whatever the next thing was. And even even as recently as like, you know, Squid Game, which, you know, I don't care what I mean, which I adored. I don't think I don't know if they necessarily knew what they had when they first got into that. I mean, it's fantastic. And I'm grateful that, you know, they got it into my eyeballs. But, you know, after that moment, it's not clear.

You know, they've had like Inventing Anna, you had their grifter show at one point or another. Oh, yeah. It's not clear that we're in this moment right now where I'm not sure that any one streamer right now has the show that everybody has to be watching this summer. what happened to broadcast television that like things got so kind of like you know thin sliced and and just niched that you know things are sustainable but there's certainly you know there isn't a sustainable for broadcast tv there's nothing that's sort of happening big like that in streaming space right now and the question is did these guys overspend did they did they just throw so much money at these things in the expectation that that would lead to more and more subscription growth

and that that gravy train would just go on in perpetuity and it may be kind of running out of steam. Yeah, it seems like it's gonna have to sort of, maybe even just some sort of middle ground, but go back to some sort of version of, because like you're saying, like, yeah, you have all of these. Now I don't, like, I know people who were like, I subscribe to this when there's this show out when it's over.

I unsubscribe. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, OK, what show am I watching? I guess I'll do that streaming service. You can't have five. You can't have it's like so expensive. Because then you're spending more than you would spend if you had cable.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, oftentimes people have cable too because they want to want at least the basic channels yeah one of our writers uh our head writer dave was saying yesterday just like yeah i was going to cancel netflix after finishing stranger things but then they fucking said that they got two more for the season so i gotta wait until that right yes yeah and and they're and right obviously the streamers

are like kind of becoming you know savvy to this because of the way that they're dividing up these seasons where right now they could have put out you know all the episodes of the new stranger things season if they wanted to but yeah i mean for one thing they can split this between like two you know emmys consideration periods wait really yeah yeah and that's and that's you know that's what amc's done with like better call saul you know like you can you could they could just run the full season but if they you know they take a little pause and in the middle and then it you know it counts for like two different years there's there's that sort of nefarious aspect to it. But then, you know, as Cody was just saying that, like, you know, they know also that if you just binge all these episodes in like a week, then you're going to cancel.

Whereas like if we give you half the season now and we'll give you the rest in July, then they can maybe get you to hang on to your subscription for one more month. That doesn't seem sustainable. Yeah, or even Disney Plus seems to be doing smarter just because they do the weekly thing. It feels a little more familiar to have to wait a week to watch a new episode of a show. Binging was very fun and exciting,

and who doesn't want to watch? If it existed during Lost, we'd all be watching an entire season of Lost in a week. of a show yeah binging was very fun and exciting and like who doesn't want to watch like you know if it existed during lost we'd all be watching like an entire season of lost in like a week and that's great but like it's not a great way to absorb shows necessarily yeah exactly in a weird way like i mean disney kind of went back to that with like the star wars shows with mandalorian and boba fett of just like one a week you You know, we drop it first thing on a Wednesday morning and you catch it, you know, when you can. And then Twitter is, you know, full of obscure, you know, Star Wars spoilers for the next

five hours. And if you don't like it, that's your problem. You know, it's it's like that got people back, I think, to the pleasure of a like, yeah, we're all gathering at the same time more or less to to watch this thing and there is something i love to sit down and binge a show i do especially like just there's nothing ahead of me especially patriot but there's an argument about that's not necessarily healthy for us like of just socially like well like what you're you're mentioning right now. There is a communal aspect to everybody who cares is watching it together at the same time. And we're talking about it. And, you know, I don't know what I would really like is go back to the model kind of paying a fee for access to everything or most everything and if i want to be the person that's involved in the

weekly release of it maybe i pay for the subscription to because i happen to really love disney plus or what have you then i pay for early access or something like that but i yeah i don't know i don't know what it's gonna happen it feels like hbo max feel like HBO kind of is the only one that kind of owns appointment viewing like Game of Thrones several years back and now Succession I think was the last time where like you had to be there watching as it aired or else it was

all going to get spoiled for you online and like other shows have their fandoms but like I'm a huge Better Call Saul fan but I don't feel that same experience that if I have to wait until tomorrow to watch Better Call Saul, that like my life will be ruined. Yeah. I do wonder if there's been some like audience creep for, for a show like Better Call Saul.

Like I just remember how sort of like, you know, like hepped up everybody was like when that first premiered, you know, four or five years ago. And it just as an extension of Breaking Bad, which people loved, it had, you know, four or five years ago. And it just has an extension of Breaking Bad, which people loved. It had, you know, because of Bob Odenkirk and his fan base and all that stuff is still there. And I think they're still writing and producing a show as good as it was at the outset. But I agree.

I don't I don't find like, you know, that sense of like the moment that the episode ends and people just kind of like, you know, rushing onto Twitter, like a la the, you know, the reporters in airplane when they all run into the phone booth at the same time, knock it over. Like we're all going to the same place to immediately have that conversation. It kind of just dribbles out in, in like little spurts and like, Oh, you see somebody tweet five days later. Hey, that was a good episode of better call Saul. And I click a little heart on it, but I don't get the same and like okay and sometimes i'm like oh i missed i didn't know there was another episode of this or like things

like i just don't even realize things are on anymore because it's all spread out everywhere yeah i think people are unaware that this is the last season or people that were thought that like the episode that aired last weekend was the series finale what and not like neither of those things but when that when stuff like that is happening like that's bad messaging on the part of the networks like if they can't get like if people just don't have that general awareness anymore like that does not bode well for the the business model it's also tough because i mean i remember if there was some big event on tv or a big finale or what have you they're marketing it on tv non-stop so you would see commercials at every commercial break yeah describing what's to come and that does not exist all will be revealed

all will be revealed yeah look i remember i was literally at the tony awards with my wife on the night of the sopranos finale and like biting my fingernails being like are we gonna get out of this award ceremony to catch the sopranos before anybody can spoil it for me like that that i mean that was some years ago now but that seems such that's so like it seems so distant like it just we just don't experience uh culture it's certainly not like tv culture like that anymore on holiday there's nothing like doing nothing as an expedia member you can save up to 30 when you add a hotel to your flight, so you can go out there with great ambition to do absolutely nothing for less. Expedia, made to travel.

Hey gang, it's Katie. You know, with gas prices as high as they are, sometimes all I want to do is lay down on a board that I've tied to the bottom of someone else's car. Then I let them drive me to wherever they're going and figure things out for there. It saves money, but wow, really, really eats up my time. Luckily though, I have Best Fiends. It's a mobile puzzle game. You know the kind. One of those casual match three deals that's free to download and aimed at adults like me who have some time to kill, which I clearly do. Plus, the fumes make me tired, but this keeps me awake as I glide mere inches from the rushing pavement. I'm currently on level 49.

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That's the code of the undercar. So, geez, go on, why don't ya? Check out Best Fiends right now. Go to the App Store or Google Play to download Best Fiends for free, plus earn even more with $5 worth of in-game rewards when you reach level 5. That's friends without the R. Best Fiends. Friends without the R. Best fiends. We're going to talk about some news soon, but I am enjoying just talking to you about stuff. TV's good. I like TV.

TV's good. I like TV. We've established that you write the recap for SNL every week and that you have to plan your weekends around it. What's it like? Do you feel a sense of relief when the season's over and you get your time back? I'm also curious about your thoughts on the show in general, because of course, it has its peaks and valleys. I haven't personally been watching it at all in the last few years. And there's a lot of people, there's always a conversation that comes and goes about how it's losing its bite or whether or not it's even still relevant.

And if you're free to comment on that, I would love to hear your thoughts. Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, look, I think it's a fascinating institution. There's truly nothing like it, whether it's good or bad in a given season or on a given night. It's still kind of amazing that there is just like a network show that is devoted like you know pretty much every weekend 20 to 22 weekends out of the year to like putting on this kind of like crazy live variety show that's supposed to be responding or you know in some way assimilating all the stuff that just happened that past week and doing it like you know with some serious like bucks behind it like they spend a lot of money on that show and like really in it like again whether you like agree if they're achieving it or not like really trying to make an effort to find like

the best up-and-coming talent that they can find to like fill out its ranks every year. And the fact that it's endured now for 47 years doing that, like that's all pretty fascinating. It's basically like, you know, I'm not the first person to have made this comparison, but they're just like the New York Yankees of TV variety. Like they just, the mere fact that they exist and still do what they do like that at minimum makes it like worthwhile to like pay attention to and see what they're doing. It's obviously the last couple of years have been, you know, a big transition for them because, of course, they got, you know, so much we can kind of agree uh you know like didn't there was really like nothing like especially lasting that came you know out of like the sort of trump specific satire very diplomatic uh way yeah and it is hard in an era of trump where everything is absurd and it's hard to even end dark and it's really hard to find,

but that's what they're there to do. You know, like, yeah, exactly. Exactly. That is their, like, that's their mandate. Like, you know, sink or swim. Like that's, you're right. That that's what they're supposed to be doing. And yeah, I think, I think that was a really kind of tough period for them. Like whether they would acknowledge it or not, like not not just like finding ways to make it funny, but also to kind of like walk a line of like, you know, whether Trump was like watching it himself in real time or like stuff was getting back to him. If he was you know, if if if he was like satirized in a sketch, he was aware of it and like sometimes even tweeting about it. He was aware of it and like sometimes even tweeting about it. And that's it's like such a weird feedback system, regardless of like who the players are, that like the president of the United States is on some level like paying attention to what a comedy show is doing and like responding at times to it.

Like, I don't know, you know, it is a very like that is not a system for like under which comedy can can thrive like like regardless right yeah well i mean there's there's conversations of course everywhere right now and it's tied up with streaming about wokeness in comedy and what that means and it's ruining comedy or it's not but what we're actually seeing a lot of times are like the institutions of snl for example knowing that everybody's watching and not taking it far enough or like to me that's an example of comedy not getting more woke i guess is because the the bite is out of it they're not dancing into the dangerous territory if that makes sense yeah no i think that that i think that that's fair.

And, you know, I like, you know, I can't necessarily speak on behalf of the show, but my guess is that like, you know, their philosophy is like, you know, we get whatever, you know, 20 or 22 chances a year to do this. And like, not everything's going to be a home run. Not everything, not every sketch is going to be, you know, Phil Hartman playing, you know, smart Reagan or,

you know, Tom Hanks doing, you know, Black Jeopardy, like, you know, those little moments of like, just everything came together in the right way. They had something to say. They said it in a funny way. They got, you know, great performances in a live moment. Like if you can get like, you know, two or three sketches like that in the season, like you've got it made. And yet, like I found, I think it was really hard for them to, you know, achieve even on that level. You know, in again, in the 2016 to 2020, you know, period, I felt like, you know, I know not everybody will agree with this, but I felt like they got a little bit more energy just in the last year of being at least being freed of that weight of like not having they still found ways to go back to Trump and get a new performer to play Trump. But they weren't like so reliant on

Trump or even on the Biden administration to like fuel or provide material. They did try to kind of, you know, just stretch out a little bit. They did some really weird and bizarre stuff, like especially in the past year. But I would much rather have like a weird, inexplicable SNL than like a predictable SNL. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

You want the Kyle Mooney stuff more than the Alec Baldwin stuff. Kyle's still there, right? He just left. He just left. We know good neighbor boys from back in the day. Oh, cool. Yeah, he had a great series on Netflix. He had a five-episode series

Saturday Morning All-Star Hits that I thought was wonderful and a little bit underrated. Like people were really into I think you should leave, which was excellent. And like, I think this was like, yeah, right on on par with that. Yeah, definitely shows like, you know, the individually there are a lot of people on that show with just tremendous talent and like great comedy instincts. I was going to pivot to talking about

george carlin actually please please do he was the first host of saturday night live there's your pivot there's our pivot i don't even have to edit it out um i i i have not finished watching this documentary but i know that you you had a recent piece about it and i think that there's a lot to be said. I mean, George Carlin's clips are always shared on social media saying like, this is so this is because oftentimes it's like, man, he cut to the fat in a way that's still funny and relevant to this day. But it also ends up being used by both sides. You know, it's an interesting phenomenon that we see online. And we have this tendency to keep our cultural heroes and put them on a pedestal and be like, if he was alive today, what would he say? Well, he might not say something that you want him to say.

You know, like there's also that. But anyway, you're more of an expert. You saw the whole documentary. Yes. By virtue of having watched the whole documentary. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know. I mean, the first of all, I thought it was a terrific film and just like, you know, in terms of like tell, you know, it's a, you know, Judd Apatow and Michael Bonfiglio who made it together. And like, you just in terms of telling a life story and Carlin's story and not really

kind of like holding back or sugarcoating things and like getting into like the problems that he had with drug addiction in his life getting into I mean you know people know for example like the big kind of switch that Carlin made early in his career from going from the kind of like you know suit and tie clean cut stand-up to being the long-haired hippie guy like that's very well known but this documentary really like charts a lot of the ups and downs that he had many periods of like trying to reinvent himself trying to like dig or drill deeper to like what he thought was the truth having many phases of his career where people weren't into him and thought that he had kind of like lost it or like

you know just didn't have it anymore like you see like sctv sketches where like rick moranis is making fun of him or like cheech and chong are mocking him it's like wow like carlin really had some low periods if these guys were scoring points off of him and part of what's interesting is i think like the the clips most of the clips that you see you know that get circulated on the Internet from these routines come from like the late 90s on when I think people had kind of soured on on his specials a little bit when he was really kind of like fully in his like angry old man phase and like would open every special with like literally he would just preface it by saying, I'm going to just say what I'm mad about. I'm just going to complain about things for 10 minutes now. And like, that's what it would sound like in a routine

was just like 10 minutes of a guy complaining. And like, sometimes he would say something funny or insightful. And sometimes it just sounded like he was complaining. Like you would hear a seven-year-old man complain about things and he got to do it on a stage. And like I said, I think people audiences in that period, like in real time, were not like super into him. But it is fascinating how a lot of that material, at least in these more sort of bite sized pieces, have been perpetuated. And even like like, you know, quotes from his like his books and his

audio books that were like way down on the food chain, like nobody like people didn't really care about that stuff at the time it was published. Like that's part of what gets circulated online now, too. And as you were saying, it's not strictly like a liberal phenomenon of, yeah, like George Carlin's our patron saint and everything he said was true, or conservatives, you know, co-opting him or finding things that he said that appealed to that philosophy. You know, it's really like across the spectrum that people look at him in a way that they don't look at other comedians where it's like, it's important to me that somehow my like morality and my judgment align with George Carlin.

Like, I have to be sure I have to feel like he would agree with what I'm about to say or do. We don't care if other comedians agree with us. Like if Johnny Carson would agree with what I'm about to do, it gives a shit. But like we care about Carlin in a way, or at least a lot of people do. Like it's something about not just his material least a lot of people do like it's something about not just his material and his sensibility but like there's something just people feel like he had he had this like inherent like kind of like truth-telling quality about him uh and you can see other comedians even trying to like co-opt or imitate that and And it's not as successful. No, no. I want to ask about the point you were just making, because you quote his daughter Kelly

in your article saying who says he was 99% progressive. And that really comes out in a lot of what he says about corporations and what he says about Republican politicians trying to control people. But, you know, he's very famous for that seven dirty words bit, there was a Supreme Court case about free speech about it. And since we're in a time right now, where like, even the definition of free speech, and what it should mean is being dragged in like 20 different positions. And you have it, you know, people standing on the pedestal of free speech to defend some of the transphobic things that Dave Chappelle and Ricky Gervais are saying.

That's one of those areas where I'm like, if he was around today, he'd be 85 now, I think. I don't know if we would like what position he takes on it or if he would say the same thing that he said about Andrew Dice Clay on the Larry King show where you say, I defend their right to say it, but obviously they're, they're not punching up here. Yeah. No, I mean, those are all like great points. And I mean, I try to like, you know, go, go through it, like, you know, segment by segment, but I mean, thank you for, you know,

mentioning that like Kelly Carlin was a big part of that story. It was great to speak to her. Obviously she's kind of like one of the last living links to her dad because, you know, his first wife has passed away. He didn't really have, he had a brother who was older than he was. He's since passed away. There's really not like a lot of other people in, in like in Carlin's world who really like knew his heart and knew his mind. And just to sort of clarify a little bit of what I think Kelly meant there is not, not that like everything in his routine was progressive,

but that his personal politics and what he educated her, the way that he taught her, that's, that's what she meant by sort of 99% progressive. But I mean, it's true. You can look at his routine from like early 2000s, where he's literally talking about like, you know, America, you know, basically, you know, like a country that is like literally on the grounds that we stole from Native Americans and, you know, the founding fathers being slave owners and why should we care what they think about today? Like all these kinds of things that like, you know, if you wouldn't be able to teach it in a school in Florida right now is what I'm saying. Like, that's that it's very clear what his personal politics were. But that doesn't mean that they

were all like his that his routines only manifested that sensibility. And, you know, that I think he was capable in his comedy, certainly of like, you know, reaching out to both sides and also that he did have, you know, personal opinions and leanings that, of like, you know, reaching out to both sides and also that he did have, you know, personal opinions and leanings that, of course, particularly on the issue of free speech, are very appealing to conservatives, that Carlin really did consider himself a free speech absolutist in that sense. And yeah, that the comments that he made about Andrew Dice Clay when he was asked about him on Larry King, his point was that, yes, it was like that. Yeah. That, that a comedian should be, you know,

allowed the space and the freedom to say what they want in, in their routine, but also that there doesn't, that does not, you know, free them from being judged for their routine or what they, or an audience. Yeah. You can say it, but we have a right to not like it yeah he basically like he's basically saying like he's allowed to say it i don't like it i think it's bad i wouldn't do that yeah yeah and and like that's you know that's where we start to get into like at least at least if you're looking for a moment of like you know uh wwgcd like what would

george carlin you don't know Carlin do? We don't know. We literally don't know what he would say like right now about like a Dave Chappelle or Ricky Gervais. I mean, the Dice Clay thing, like that's probably as close as we can get, you know, in the sense that like most likely would he have rendered the same kind of judgment of like, yeah, I'm not down with the content or the specifics, but like you still got to give the guy the right to say those things or the space to say it on a stage.

Like most likely. But yeah, we can't we can't know for certain. And that's I mean, that's that's part of what, you know, makes it, I think, you know, challenging or at least like it's very easy for people to to want to invoke him because who can prove you wrong if you say, well, like he's not here to say, yes, I would or no, I wouldn't. Right. Unless, yeah, unless he literally said it. He would have agreed that Netflix is going downhill because of the woke mind. I think he definitely be on Elon's side there. Easily, easily. Yeah. I kind of think he would be irritated by people

trying to say what he would say. Probably. That I think is I think is very true. Yeah. But, you know, if I can just go back to the, you know, just the free speech issue. I mean, this is something that, you know, Mark Maron, you know, talked about in my piece, and I thought he was really on point was that the free speech fight that Carlin was fighting had to do with, like, literally, the government trying to prevent or intimidate him from saying what he wanted to say, like him literally getting arrested for performing, you know, one of his routines in 1972. That is, you know, maybe there's like an individual headline that I have missed recently, but that's not what's happening today. And I'm certainly not aware of like American, you know, comedians getting, you know, arrested or

intimidated by, you know, government powers because of the things that they either say or want to say. And in a sense that that that fight is already kind of as far as I'm aware, over. But there are like other iterations. There's like, you know, there's like if you want to. I'm not sure I am down with this or agree with this. But if you want to say that, like online or, you know, Twitter or Google or whatever is the new public square. And like some people think that's a form of censorship. Like if they're not if you're not given a place there, like that's that's where the fight is happening and what it's about. But that's not what Carlin was arguing about or fighting for.

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I'm going to take us on a little bit of a hard pivot because I think that we should talk about a bit of news. Not that this hasn't been news adjacent, but there is some news this week in case you missed it johnny depp has won his libel lawsuit against ex-wife amber heard on wednesday uh with the jury awarding him both compensatory and punitive punitive damages totaling 10.35 million the jury also ruled in favor of heard uh in one aspect of her countersuit against depp's lawyer who called her allegations a hoax and awarded her $2 million. Jonathan, that changed though, right? The judge adjusted it. So they tried to give Johnny Depp $15 million. They tried to give him $10 million in compensatory and $5 million in punitive damages

and based on Virginia state law lowered that to $350,000. So she has to give him $10.35 million and he has to give her 2 million because they were both right and they were both wrong so this makes sense quick little reminder for everyone listening that the whole trial

is based off of an op-ed she published in 2018 that described her experiences with abuse but did not name him also both Heard and Johnny Depp live in that described her experiences with abuse, but did not name him. Also, both Heard and Johnny Depp live in California. So why is this taking place there? Because they can film it and air it.

Yeah, well. And we can get all of our great YouTube clips. I mean, yes, that is. But technically speaking, Depp claims it's because that's where the Washington Post is published, you know, where the op-ed was. Also in Virginia, the anti-SLAPP laws are very specific and allow for a jury trial without a judge needing to weigh in, in on if a defendant is allowed to be served with

such a suit. So there are specific laws in that state that made this favorable for Johnny Depp. Also, he could live stream. Just a point of note is anti-SLAPP laws are intended to protect people from lawsuits from rich and powerful people trying to silence them. So that's just fun. One thing that I think is important to point out is that Johnny Depp sued a British tabloid a few years ago for calling him a wife beater. And he lost that suit because that was in front of a judge. Because he did. Because he did. As was proved in this trial that we all watched, unfortunately, unfold.

Boy, this is a little upsetting to get into. The reaction was expected and pretty gross. And also, like, I've tried to, I haven't paid much attention to the trial, at least the first few weeks of it. I started to get a lot of those videos in my algorithm that I chose to not watch, but they keep showing them to me of like, look at Johnny Depp embarrass everybody. Look how charming the guy is. And it was a very clear, like narrative being formed. And then just looking into it recently and like lit like details and quotes from the trial and then seeing people's reaction to it it's just full of liars it's very frustrating and weird to see um just like

blatant misrepresentations of what was actually said and revealed it was disgusting just this idea that like he didn't do anything um it seems to be out there and like this like is uh vindicates um seems to be out there and like this like is uh vindicates everything because she seems like a problem quota and i'm putting big quotes around this a problematic witness a problematic accuser so the whole thing became about dragging her through the mud and delegitimizing her and not about whether or not Johnny Depp did the things that she's she's claiming, which he did. There was lots of evidence. That's what the jury said. That's in the award, too. Yeah. If she's awarded damages because his lawyer called her accusations a hoax, that means that it wasn't a hoax, which means it's accurate. Because the question here was whether or not she was defaming him by not naming him.

The lawyers that I've seen talk about this since the verdict was read yesterday seem to suggest that her appeal is likely to be successful because of that contradiction. contradiction that like the jury may not have like it's clear that they didn't understand because if one person's telling the truth about all this stuff then the other person couldn't have it's like the two the the trolls in labyrinth that are not following their own rules you know like so if so it's going to be very easy to present this like if she was defamed by it being called a hoax then she was telling the truth about the stuff and if she was telling the truth that he obviously you don't need me to go through and it'll it's pretzel logic yeah i do think it's interesting because if we start talking about the jury it's very clear that it was a huge problem that they weren't sequestered and even though they were instructed especially

since the internet was allowed to participate and be essentially in the courtroom. Right. Even if we didn't want to be in the courtroom, we were forced into it over the last six weeks. Yeah, they forced us there. We were forced. I specifically did not want to consume any of this trial. And I know a lot of people that, you know, I'm not saying that I've experienced domestic violence, but it's very triggering for a lot of people. And it was forced upon everybody.

There was no choice to avoid it. And that was on purpose. Well, I mean, it makes money for the platforms for sure. But Johnny Depp and his team strategically showed up in this place so that it could play out in the court of public opinion so that he could make himself seem different, paint a different picture for himself, whatever. Did you know that actors can be charming? I didn't. I wasn't aware. Have you heard?

I wasn't aware of that. Yeah, like on the fly. They just respond. They're like, well, that's a charming person. And then it's all over. And we can keep talking about the media response and how, Yeah, like on the fly. They just respond. They're like, well, that's a charming person. And then it's all over. And we can keep talking about the media response and how, I mean, it was just horrifying the way people attacked her character. And, you know, interestingly enough, there is a large percentage of women who themselves have been victims of abuse who are very quick to jump on

the anti-Amber Heard train because, like I said, quote unquote, not the ideal kind of victim. There's no ideal victim. I know I'm just, but just in case anybody is unclear about what I am saying here, but uses a chance to push other people down to make themselves feel better and safer in what they experience in their own experiences. They also don't want to be painted to look like XYZ. So they're quick to join. It's a phenomenon. It's very real. And you're seeing that online. But what this whole thing has done, and nothing I'm going to say is going to surprise our listeners, but it's just, I mean, it completely takes the air out of me too. It sets us back so far because what this does is sets a precedent for people to not come forward if they can just

be accused of defamation they don't stand a shot it it's completely disgusting and i don't want to i'm not i'm not even interested that much in the facts of this case you know the whole story because like what you're talking about isn't necessarily like legally i don't think it will necessarily have that effect but like culturally culturally there is a chilling effect exactly i mean what we've already seen is that um this is from rolling stone um from dr jessica taylor a psychologist a forensic psychology phd um and an author of books about misogyny and abuse. She told Rolling Stone that she has already been contacted by hundreds of survivors wishing to retract public statements they have made in the press

or pulling out of court cases against their abusers. She says the verdict opens the floodgates for future defamation cases. Survivors watching this will rethink everything they say out loud about what happened to them and the potential of being sued and dragged through a court process for saying something they know is true but they could be found guilty of defamation it's a scary place to be it's very it's terrifying yeah i mean there's um i mean look at like you said like it's you know there's a symbolic sort

of like it sort of uh the effect on like the me too thing like you can look at from ann coulter to some other fucking monster uh literally saying that like literally being like this is the end of me too like we did it like this is we did it folks and it's it's easy to get distracted by culture war stuff it's also easy to dismiss culture war stuff that also like has a negative effect on people and like culture in ways that like do matter and you know uh what like the daily wire spent tons of money on these like pro-dep anti ember heard ads and stuff like why are they doing that yeah what that's like this was there was a this push beyond just the trial to make this represent and be sort of a referendum on

the past several years and it seems to have worked and that sucks. Yeah. Worked for some people. For people who wanted it to work. The House Judiciary GOP tweeting out that gif of Jack Sparrow I was like why are you even weighing in

on this? I didn't even realize three weeks ago while this trial was already halfway over I was like, why are you even weighing in on this? What, like, it... Because everything is... Yeah, you didn't... I didn't even realize three weeks ago while this trial was already halfway over that, oh, this is a referendum on, like, the last 10 years of discussions about, like, abuse and sexual politics and stuff. But all of a sudden, they're like, nope, it is. And we're declaring victory.

And also, we're... We love this guy who, like... Right. And it's like, yeah, we did it. And, like, it worked. And, like, this guy who like right and it's like yeah we did it and like it worked and like this is like for everybody and like but they're still just both millionaires like trading some millions of dollars to each other like i don't know i don't know how much money amber heard has probably millions not as much as he does certainly not as much as he does it's just feels awful even if you believe that she's this evil manipulative whatever and that she made everything up and then even if you

believe that that vague op ed that doesn't mention him goes so far as to be considered defamation i still wouldn't think it's worth 15 like no she is not that is not responsible for the wayne in uh johnny depp's film career which had been kind of going downhill before that like he he was also the fact of the matter is is that all of this well-documented abuse happened while he was spiraling on drugs and alcohol, something he had been sober prior to them getting married or meeting or whatever. And this is a fact. That affects your career. People don't want to work with people who are loose cannons. It's very frustrating. Of course, it's hard to think about like the precedent and you know not just people that currently have

similar situations that they're rethinking but just for for women growing up in this country and uh feeling empowered and safe and that their country in the legal system would protect them that's a bummer but i don't think me too is completely dead well no i mean that's the thing like of course not because it's just people needed this like symbolic thing to share their little gifts yeah and make sure that that we know it's like vice signaling is what they're doing and it's uh i'm great to know like that they think that and that that's what house judiciary wants to spend their fucking time on but i don't think ultimately it'll you know obviously it's not the end of it and like like jonathan you mentioned like it's probably not gonna hold because of how very clearly contradictory the ruling was yeah i've not enjoyed seeing like

because it's not it's the framing for a lot of the people who are like we did it we won is that like we won she was lying she lied about everything right he didn't do anything that's just like literally you can't objectively that's not true you can't listen to audio or read like the text like anything you're following it really closely and seem to have missed a lot of evidence here yeah like there there are incidents that clearly happened there's not like mountains and mountains of evidence because there usually isn't in cases like this. But there's him audibly admitting to certain things, saying them out loud. And so just like the idea that like this defamation trial,

which again has contradictory outcomes, means that he didn't do any of the abuse is like just false on its face and that's really fucked up that people are sort of using this to say that um i don't know this was this was one of the stories that final whenever people are like oh i know twitter's manipulating stuff and i always am like no it's just this is how you use it this was finally the story that made me think I've I've x'd out anytime it's like suggested topic Amber Heard or Johnny Depp and it's always in the sidebar and I'm like nope nope nope I'm just gonna see if I can rid this from my algorithm and I couldn't do it and I wonder if that was your experiences as well I that happened to me as well like you know with uh like with like

youtube for example like if you know if i just came to it like totally cold like i was you know certainly getting like suggested a lot of like you know johnny depp amber heard reaction videos it's not anything i'm fairly certain like my son was not looking at them like in the middle of the night he's seven he's into blue you know not not like his world and yeah i like i don't i think these things were not it didn't it didn't feel like organic suggestions based on like history it just felt like that it was like the machine had decided okay now this is what this is what you're getting yeah it's like you determined like this story the algorithm was like this story has these six qualities that always do well so no

matter what we're just gonna filter this to the top it'll get them it'll get the clicks it'll get the views and it did it totally worked yeah yeah it worked i think also that it was it was such a hard story for i mean this is like like a very low level problem but it was kind of a hard story or event for like pop culture to kind of like comment or weigh in on because there were just so many aspects of it that were like distasteful and ugly and in the absence of that i think that like what i mean there there was like an essay wasn't like well received there were like a couple monologue jokes and some of the late night hosts but otherwise like you know people not really wanting to go there left a lot of room for like

other individuals and other brands to kind of like fill that space and comment on it in like you know in in a way that like you know like we can all kind of recognize is like you know, in a way that like, you know, like we can all kind of recognize is like, you know, ugly and gross. Yeah, it was really unpleasant in a lot of ways. Yeah. And very destructive. Ugly, gross, destructive. If the verdict is ultimately overturned, since that would just be a private matter with like a three judge panel, will not be witnessing it for for weeks at a time and we might we might hear it but it'll probably get buried and for the most part people will

assume that this is how it stood right oh as soon as that happens the phrase activist judges will be very very popular oh yeah that is what's gonna happen the activist judges made their decision because they're too woke. Yeah. Instead of like looking at the past. That's one thing I hate about judges, how woke they are. The House Judiciary GOP won't be putting an Amber Heard from Aquaman gif up when that happens. No, no, they won't.

What even would that be? Are there, do those exist? Has anyone made a single gif? I'm sure they exist. I haven't seen the movie, but I'm sure there are gifts. But yeah, I don't think they'll switch from frivolous lawsuits to activist judges. I think that'll be a pretty smooth transition. You know, I don't believe in cancel culture, really. I mean, sure, we understand. But we've

talked about this a lot on the show. Like, yeah, someone gets in trouble with the liberal left. Well, there's a whole other side of people that are ready to welcome them. It just it does occur to me as we're talking about this, that this does it for Amber on all sides. Like, like, this was truly, it's ironic that people say like, this is the end of cancel culture when what you did was, was really ruin a woman. And there's not going to be recourse for her, even if this thing gets overturned. Does that make sense? I mean, we'll see it because she's supposed to be in Aquaman 2, which comes out next year. I think she's been significantly cut down on that, though. I think if it happens, it's going to be because the studios are preemptively making that decision.

it happens it's going to be because the studios are preemptively making that decision I really do think there are more of us in terms of people who are I think the Johnny Depp fandom seems gargantuan and uncontrollable online but I don't think there will be massive protests

outside of Aquaman 2 if she's in it I don't know if people are going to be lining up to cast her after this yeah it's going to be maybe my point. Yeah, like maybe not like, oh, you she can't go walk around in Los Angeles or whatever. No, the studios are not going to be brave enough to cast her. They're just like they're going to be like, we don't want to deal with this. Right.

Yeah, we don't. Yeah, exactly. Play it. Anyway, that's a fun place to leave things. But we're out of time. Then it is. Dave, it was really, really, really great having you here. This was a fun conversation for us.

Wait, wait. First, I have to. Sorry. We didn't. We skipped. We skipped this part. You love The Simpsons. I think it's clear and okay to say that. I do.

I don't think I'm breaking any sort of, you know, journalistic taboos of objectivity. Yeah, I think legally you're allowed to say that. You seem to have instantly a quote for any story, like any story that drops that's appropriate. And this is something like, I don't know, I remember watching the first episode when it aired and like we taped it from that point on and it was like the the regular thing you get together on sunday and you watch the show uh like tv used to be and so this is something that i think a lot of listeners have like do naturally like in their everyday lives and just like oh this this quote reminds me of this because they're just they were just so good at encapsulating certain things about our culture and yeah lines um so you're like really good at that and you how you take a lot of pride in that is that like your your your way to

like legally comment on stories like without like saying anything like no i'm just sharing a fun little simpsons quote yeah i mean it's it's something that i i probably did a little bit more uh reflexively and like the more if i if I like start to kind of like examine it, like it feels weird even to me. Like, why am I doing this? Is it like you never want anything? It's kind of too late. We're all like this to some degree, but you don't ever want like any part of your sort of like expression to feel like a shtick or an obligation or just like it's unavoidable we all do things especially like you know on twitter on social media for like that that social reaction and and you know how many how many retweets how many likes but i i you know i try not to like do it like too like obviously and and and there are certain like simpson uh gifts that just became like you know homer receding into the bushes or yeah they're so ubiquitous and like they're just like in you know nobody did it on purpose but like just by the sort of proliferation

of those kinds of memes like anything you do in a simpson now, like it has to really be like, to my mind, like worthwhile or it just has to show people. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like a deep cut that actually like speaks to the moment as opposed to like,

yeah, just a general reaction. Yeah. What's more fun to me now is like, because, you know, I obviously have, you know,

online followers who know that I'm into it and whose own like, you know, knowledge of the show is is is also like very deep and they all have their own like every follower will have like their own references and lines that they remember like just the other day like i i posted like a clip or like a like a screen grab from paper moon because i was making a joke about the new obi-wan series and then somebody replied to me with like a gif of ned flanders calling out bart and homer for copying one of the scams from paper moon and like i like i didn't remember that moment or that line but it was so nice to have a follower remember that and then i can you know retweet that into my feed yeah i much prefer

like you know like when stuff like that happens organically and and it like instead of like looking at a headline and oh i'm going to take the next five minutes and try to yeah oh yeah well that never works you want to you want to you want to read an article and go like oh my god i can't like this line is in my head already you have to force it it's not for you let someone else take the joke. Yeah, yeah. If it comes up, it's good. There certainly was like an era where it just seemed like so many of the headlines. And we still live in a time like this, but just like so much of what was happening news-wise was so, like it was just so on the nose, like in an impossible way. But it speaks more to the sensibility of the show where they were so like as colorful and as

just kind of like funny and zany as the humor was like there was a real like cynicism and skepticism underneath all of it that they were like very i think in a healthy way distrustful of like all institutions nobody there's no really i mean with like maybe a couple of exceptions there's no example of like a an adult character on that show who's like totally you know uh good and not like not doing things for like kind of like selfish uh reasons in in some way or or you know an underhanded way and so like that like you know they there's that aspect to the show and then just the fact of like you also have a lot of plot lines of people like basically getting caught red handed in some kind of scam and having like no explanation for it. And like trying to like back out of it in like the most like blatant and unconvincing way. And so much of like public life is about that now.

now and so you just for as many times as that occurs in our reality there are like that many different iterations of simpson characters doing the same thing and it like it has yet to like like the well even even if you just restrict yourself like the first 10 or 12 seasons of the show i feel like the it still feels like a bottomless well of like resources to me it's like for yeah for any sister no it reminded me of that like that south park bit where it was like oh you can't do that the simpsons already did it and it happens so often because there's so many episodes so many seasons of the show just earlier today i didn't post this it's not my bit but they like i saw that joe biden's giving a speech about mass shootings and he's gonna once again push Congress to do something about it. And I immediately thought of Apu telling Homer, I've asked you nicely not to ruin my merchandise. You've left me no chance but to ask you nicely again. And I'm like, oh, that's exactly what Joe Biden's doing tonight.

It's like, if you watch enough of that show, they just pop into your head like that's just like this. That's just like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, like it's it's not there are other shows that I probably watched like more rabidly in a way, like we go back and rewatch episodes. I mean, I certainly loved it through its heyday. I continue to watch it now, but it's not like i i unless like unless i i mean i will say like my son for whatever reason he's seven he has like a real affection for that x files parody episode and he can watch that endlessly so i know that that one episode really well now strangely enough and like all the jokes about like steve urkel that my son doesn't even understand what they're

referencing like that's delightful and no use on online really but like beyond that episode I don't I wouldn't say that like I immerse myself in it like to like refresh it in my mind it just for whatever reason it's stuck you know it certainly like spoke to me in its day and now it's just lodged in that part of my brain that that survived college and I'm sure yeah i'm sure there are even moments uh in real life that will make you think of oh it's bringing you love don't let it get away every every like every single thing is just extremely appropriate even yesterday we were talking about the gun situation and the door situation and how we got to get one door or we got to give teachers guns and just like this idea of like

the gop impulse to like well we're not going to talk about like their actual problem we're going to say we got to do this so we're going to give teachers guns so giving teachers guns you're going to ultimately create more situations where people are going to get shot you're going to accidentally shoot a kid um a teacher like a student's going to steal the gun like there are all these situations that arise from that and so your your solution to school shootings is to create a new subcategory of school shooting that then you're gonna have to have a solution for there and instantly i was just like oh yeah it's like when they the town is overrun by lizards and you need to get uh uh the snakes to eat the lizards and then well the you know then we'll get gorillas to eat the snakes

well we have a plan for that yeah exactly it's like this constant thing we could do this all day no no it's time to wrap up but I'm glad that you brought it up surely it's time to wrap up I just had to you're here why not ask now that I've examined

it this closely like now I'll like second guess myself in perpetuity yeah we've examined it this closely, like now I'll like second guess myself in perpetuity. Yeah, we've made it. We love it. It's free therapy. I appreciate it. No, just feel emboldened that we love and support your work.

Thank you. Thank you again for joining us. This has been really fun. It was my pleasure. Thank you for asking me to do it. Tell our listeners where they can find you online or plug anything you want to plug. Yeah. I write regularly for the New York Times at nytimes.com.

And I tweet my headlines and Simpson Gifts at Ditzkoff on Twitter. All right, guys. That's it. End of the show. It's going to stop playing really soon. We're going to be back next week, so don't worry about it. You can keep listening to this over and over again if you miss us.

Put on repeat. It's repeat day. That's an option for a repeat day. But most importantly, please remember that we love you very much. Ma-sha.