Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Daniel Kaluuya

Episode Date: December 27, 2023

Actor, writer, producer, and director Daniel Kaluuya is known for his groundbreaking role in "Get Out" and his Oscar-winning portrayal of Chairman Fred Hampton in "Judas and the Black Messiah," which also earned him BAFTA, Golden Globe, and SAG Awards. Born in London, Kaluuya honed his storytelling skills from a young age, beginning his career as a writer and then actor for the popular British series "Skins." His early journey encompassed sketch comedy and short films to notable performances in Oliver Award-winning play "Sucker Punch" and "Black Mirror."   With his subsequent run of performances and projects, including "Black Panther," "Widows," "Queen & Slim, "Nope,” “Honk For Jesus. Save Your Soul,” and “Spider-Man: Across The Spider-Verse,” Kaluuya has solidified his status as a multifaceted creative force.   Kaluuya’s directorial and feature film writing debut, “The Kitchen.” releases on Netflix on January 19. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra ------ House of Macadamias https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra

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Tetragramaton Tetragramaton Tetragramaton Paisy London and London and early, although back and forth, but I just followed the work with that period of, but I think that period of my life I'm going to stop in just going with the work. This is actually my work being my wife. Yeah.

Jettin San and whatever she wants. Yeah. I do. Yeah. But I don't know if I like that relationship anymore. If only in the way that it's been. The working relationship. Putting her before me.

I see. When it's coming from me. Is it two way? No, it's not. It's not, it's not. It's just the way I've set up the relationship is wherever she wants, wherever it's, all right, cool, it's what we're going to do, let's go.

And I've done it for the basic 18 years. Correct. And I can see it's taking this toll on me, because it's not reciprocal. How do you talk to her about it? Yeah, that's why I went away. The work, I mean, I saw it went away to kind of go, this isn't all right, this isn't sustainable, do you know what I mean? And they say it got me to where I wanted to get to

very quickly, which I think I wanted. And I think, but I'm looking at it and go, what do I want? You know what I mean? And I'm now realizing, especially after this kitchen process I'm realizing, oh, this is all reflection of me, working is all reflection of who I am. And my character, not in this all reflection of who I am and my character, not what I can do is who I am.

And if I'm not pouring into who I am, what am I doing? Do you feel like you're always in the characters you play? Yeah, of course. I always feel like, I have always seen at Tennis, like, I'm using who I am to show you who I'm not. Same more about that. This guy's here, this character, this guy's here. I go, I go to him, yeah?

And I find similarities, I find things that, oh, he's like me like this, he's like me, oh, that's how I can, so because I wanna root it in something real. And present it and put on a patina and a mistake. It can hold aura, that isn't me. But because it's rooted in something that I connect with, you know what I'm saying?

It's rooted. It's like, it's like difference between, what I aim for, I don't give you a pot of plot and go here, I go, come, look what I've grown. It's only, how long does it take before you become the version that we get to see? I'd be like, probably up a month, I'd probably look my way up, look myself off a month and I just, I just immersed myself. I think about it, I kind of, they, thoughts around it, kind of, but I think I'm just getting intel and stuff and

information. I'm interested in that. I'm interested in that. And cool. And it just starts arriving real things. And this wouldn't be what you're discussing isn't rehearsal. This is like you understanding who the person is in the context of this project. Is that right? Yeah, it's like kind of like, so when I'm on set, I'm not actually working and presenting. You're just being. I'm being. I'm like, it came from process. I learned this way because I did this play when I was 21, called Sucker Punch, it was real cool. And then I was like, I was overweight.

And then like, I got cars, and then we're like, is this going to do it? It had to be a lightweight boxer. And I was just like, I'm gonna do it. And I'd never been slimming my life. And I was like, all right, cool, I'm on it. Yeah, then I got down to 11 stone. I can't remember what that's in pounds.

Well, I lost 42 pounds in three months. Wow. How did you do that? Boxing, skipping. I sat down with nutritionist, with a British tennis team. And I just was non-stop. I was non-stop.

And I had a, how I did that is I had a target, I had a purpose, had a reason. Because if I did that now without a purpose, I wouldn't get there. Yeah. It mean it's like, if I'm being real, I had a reason that I committed with emotionally and I got there. And then, but when I did that, when I then performed it, I was like, I am different.

Like, I didn't have to act. Yeah. It's coming from like, you know, I box, like skipper. Every night, like, I was getting shin splints and then in the block that I grew up with, you know, when there's a swings and then there's like the kind of soft bit of swing, I had to skip on that to kind of do 30 minutes skipping every night, because I did this two minute monologue

where I had to skip and act in the round and go and do tricks. So I went through 30 minutes every night and the people I grew up with, I remember wanting to, I had to have my headphones and listen to music, skip, skip, skip, and then, I didn't realize my boys I grew up with were behind me watching, because my back was still in them.

And they looked at me, and I turned around, and they'd, remember, this is 10 o'clock at night, and they looked at me and I was like, it's acting thing serious for you, didn't it? I was like, yeah. I was like, oh. Because it's just dedication. And then then and then when I was playing the character I didn't feel I was acting I was being yeah, so then I I found point

I found like a North Star and then I reach for that that was a long process three months I was gifted in that you don't usually get that just and but Now I always reach for that lived in nature of the character, where I'm not really acting, I'm just there. What happens offset? Like, can you turn off the character or use a character for that whole window of time

on an offset? Nah, but I'm in the vibe. So I'm in the vibe because I'm doing his rituals. Offset. You know what I'm saying? It's like, so like, say as if Chairman Fred, I'd heard that he listened to Mark of Mexico and might leave the king.

I'll just listen to that every morning. Every morning. Every morning. On top. And the exact speech. So you're living the character's life. So I don't have to be the character when I'm in my ward. Like I used to keep the accent going throughout and then I realized I just, I need to rest.

Yeah. And so like it actually makes it richer with my rest. So I would just be myself, but doing what he does, listen what he does and kind of getting in that vibe and understanding and having goals. So I wanted to tell to me he is like, you sniff around the character. You sniff around him, you understand these rituals, these habits, these things, and then. But this is someone playing a real laugh person where it was a different thing for me because usually if you have a character you're creating the target.

You know what I'm saying? Wow, we've been playing a real life character, there is a target. How important is that your representation of a known character is like that known character, or can you find either a metaphorical or some other variation on that character that's more interesting to play that character. I think it's in, at the end of the day, you've got a narrative that isn't a documentary.

Yeah. So you're serving a story, so it has to be an interpretation. If you do it, sometimes I've seen people do real life people and they've got it right, but it feels wrong. Because you're serving a piece, you're serving an intention. So then like, what I do is I'll watch that person. And I go, how does he make me feel? I want others to feel like that. Then I go for the energy that makes people feel like that. And then that allows me to make other decisions. How much is body language a part of it?

Yeah, look, everything, everything. It's the aura, the essence, how you walk, how you, you know how you drop your head, how you like, how you look someone in the eye, how you tilt your head, how you like, just the whole, how I smoke, like, says even Judas, I'll just smoke it, I mean, I don't smoke, so I would smoke every night,

like, herbles. And like just because I get really frustrated when I see actors that don't smoke smoke and it feels inaccurate. And it's just like two seconds on screen, but that stuff gets you out of it. So I would smoke every night and film myself and go, do I buy it?

Yes or not? Do I buy it? Yes or not? So you'd film yourself, like testing yourself almost, to see if it's real. Amazing. So because it's how you, if you're saying a line and then just go in for a,

and even having the instinct of wanting a smoke and when you have the instinct is a... You know, even the way you hold a cigarette. Yeah, every aspect. Exactly. You have to, it has to be lived in. Yeah. It's the detail that actually gets it to the next level.

Yeah, my lines of delivery is whatever. It's just those little things. It's those, it's like, I think something's you're like, oh, I've got big aura and then I'm like, too big. And then I go cardio because it's just like, yeah, he was big, but he has to feel nimble. You know what I'm saying? It's just that it's just everything is that go into a feeling.

And then everything is just an, it's not an imitation, it's an interpretation. You know what I mean? And so then it's vulnerable, but you have to go, this is what I think. And people go, well, I don't think that. I'm like, yeah, but this is what I think. And yes, it's just stand on it.

But for me, I have to just be so committed and confident to stand on what I feel and what I think, just so that no one can, you know what I mean, it's like, I think it's not because you're being it, you're not trying to do it, you're being it. I'm being it, and I like this. Yeah. I like this what I like. Yeah.

Oh, this what I like this. Yeah. No, if you can, if you can, that is what I like. If you are very aware and very in tune with what you like, not I feel like no one can shape me. And I just stand on that. How similar would you be from take to take or might it be really different

because you're just the person and the person would do it same way every time? I'm not even aware. I know I've got the same structural skill who I do things intentional, like say if there's a rise in pitch, that's intentional. I remember when sometimes I do ADR, which is additional dialogue recording when you go back and then they were like, oh yeah, it's really quiet here. Could you take it louder? No, I meant that. But in terms of how I do that, let go of being good a long time ago and being great a long

time ago. I want to be honest. And it liberates me when I watch my work a year later. And you kind of go flip, I want to do like that now. And it's what's frustrating about my, the process of acting is that you're the best person for the job at the end of the job. You understand? And so you're like, oh snap, like, oh fuck,

but you have to just commit to where you're at and be like, this is how I feel. This is where it is. And so sometimes it's like that. I'll just, that's how I feel. And I just let it go. And then boom, let it go. And then boom, if I know what it's about, I know what I want.

And if someone does something different, how could I not respond to that? It's listening and responding. It's as simple as that. Like, it's not really that. Ricks and I, it's like, but it's sometimes people find it really hard to just listen and respond to that. It takes a long time to get to that place, to find that simplicity of going, you're there and I respond to that, and then it's that.

And when you're listening, you're listening to the actual words. You're listening to what the person is saying to you and reacting to those words. Yeah, and the tone, everything, the elicit, the air, the body language, the energy, what those thoughts trigger in you, and you're open. So whatever you, anything you,

but I got that from improvisation, I did improvisation for three years from 13 to 16, that was how I got into act, and I didn't look at the script. So you have to be present, and I had this, used to have this same when I was doing improv, like Anna Shares,

she passed away recently, RIP, man, but like I had this rule, like once you're in your head, you're dead, you know what I mean? Yeah. I'm dead. Yeah. And whatever you do, I'm taking that in. Because you're not having lines.

Anything is a clue for the next line. So we can build. So we can find out who your character is, who my character is, what is the story line? And now we're in the line on something like, oh, it's God. And so then when I then was given lines and characters and stories like, wow, this is a lot, this is an abundance.

So then I, but I still keep my thing was like, how do I, when something is so premeditated, how do I keep that essence of real life? How do I keep that essence of spontaneity? How do I keep that essence of running? How do I keep that essence of, do you mean in line? How do you do it? You're asking me out, yeah. Do you wanna try it, how do I keep the essence of running, how do I keep the essence of, you're mean and like, how do you do it? You're asking me out, yeah.

You wanna try it, didn't you? Okay. So like, say as if bum, like, you know, they're not in provenant. So like, say as if, like, cool, I go like, where's your socks? I don't wear your socks. I don't wear socks.

Why are you moving your hand like that? I don't even know why you're moving your hand like that. I told you where your socks, I'm not even being like, I'm not even being this way, why are you moving your hand like that? I don't even know why you're moving your hand like that. I told you where you're stuck. So I'm not even being like, I'm not even being this way like, why are you moving your hand like that? How was I using my hand? You was using your hand, correct? You're using your head.

So, yes, I'm using my hand to express how you're using your hand. It's a little point. You're using your hand before I use my hand. I'm probably not using my hand. It's smiling, what's funny? It's funny. It's funny. It's funny.

It's funny that we're having a conversation about having fun. I even fucked a shit like that. No, I even, if you want to do all this stuff like, you've got me out here doing that, doing all hand movements, smiling, showing me your teeth, and I'm sitting there trying to be serious.

Janssen is like fucking like, I know what the fuck you're on. Janssen is like, is it like, I was like, bro, you're still laughing. I'm still laughing, it's funny. You're, yeah, all right, you're all comedian then. I think you do comedies.

You're a comedian comedy, you want to bring a comedy, you're a comedian, yeah. I'm not a comedian. Well, I've done a couple comedies in my yeah, of course I've done a couple of comedies in my life, bro, I've done a couple of comedies. I'm not proud of the comedies I've fucking done, but I'm fucking it, and it's that. Yeah.

And so now it's about us, probably your better comedian to me. Jensen, I bet I'm pissed that your bet, that's really the undercurrent is that your bet is comedied to me, we're two comedians, and you'll find it funny, I'm insecure about, you run. Like it's not like, it's not pre-minute. You just go, you just go. You just listen, you listen to what's there and you respond.

And then you go, and then if you're with someone you've got to act cool with the comedians. Act cool, I think you're really funny. And I think I'm being skilled about being funny. It's anything you do, I'm gonna fucking gaslight you about it, like, yeah. But then you just hand a sign in it, and then you build and build a book.

That's what I learned. That's what Anna Shafet was about. That's what I kind of, you know, makes you kind of go. And you wanna, for me, it's also as well, it's like, you have this other fourth wall of which was a bunch of kids that don't give a fuck that you're trying to make golf,

or you're trying to make listen, or you're trying to like lean in. And it's just grabbing that and giving real reactions because you're just in it. So then obviously when you're doing a scene, you give a little, what you're in it, you give a little bit of leeway so in the edit, like a couple improvised lines that they can play with

in the edit and stuff like that. But then it actually gets you to double down and understand where your character's coming from and play with ideas and go, oh yeah, that didn't work. But think of it as it does work, it's just, it's a hard thing to describe, but because I was, it was the way that I learned how to do it, it's something I intimately know.

And like, and reading people and, knowing every single inch, we are so limited to words mentally, like thinking that we just say things with words, we say things with everything, words are a technology. It means like, yeah, I'm not a great one, honestly. No, it doesn't really, it doesn't really describe how you feel that more time job.

I mean, it's what you do, you know what I mean? And so when you understand that, that caught in me, then you're able to kind of like swim around and play around and then build a point and then it's like that thing where it except and saying yes. So say as if I said you was a comedian, the thing, you can't say no, I'm not a comedian. Because then that stops the flow. You mean? And is that a rule of improv? Yeah. Yeah. Well, why I studied it? Yeah, it's good to accept to say yes. Anything, any idea that's thrown, you say built yes and yes and. Yes and.

Yes and. Do anything's come up in improv that become things you have in your pocket that you could use again someday? Is every improv starting from zero or might you say something one night that you think is funny and that you remember and then that might come back. Do you know what I'm saying?

It could do, but I think where the class that I learned all this from, it was about thrown it away. And sometimes like there would be device pieces that the kid that had the play was like, oh, I want this to happen, what this to happen, this to happen in the scene. And it was all job, how we got there. And then if you're doing it again, it says if you wanted, you was like voted best play,

best advice play, and you did it for the performance, then you would have to remember what really worked about it, but still keep it loose enough to find some new stuff. But then not to be too indulgent where you're actually just like kind of wanking off and just going, oh look how quick and great we are actually going and serving the goal and the intention of the piece. Now we are clear about who we are, you know what I mean? It's freedom but also once you land this restraint and find the freedom within that restraint and within those boundaries, it's my, I've never really even fooled by this, but this is how I kind of feel.

I learned through it. When you're doing improv, you mentioned being in it with the person that you're doing it with, the people you're doing it with, but you also have an audience, and are you aware of them? Do you take them into consideration?

Are they part of the improv or not? and are you aware of them? Do you take them into consideration? Are they part of the improv or not? Yeah, because it'd be fake for them not to be. Because they're there. So, you're a performance. It's not a conversation. So, this is just my philosophy, my belief, I'm there to serve the audience and grab their attention. I think the class that I grew up in is a bunch of kids, when you're crap, they laugh.

You know what I mean? And I saw, it was the toughest, it was so real. It wasn't entitled to their attention. If you're born and they start playing on their phone and playing, was it back in there with snakes and Nokia, they were playing games, they were like, we spent this guy, shit, and you would hear playing on their phone and playing, was it back in there with snakes and Nokia, they were playing games, they would like, we spent this guy, shoot.

And you would hear it. Yeah. It's not like they're dead, like where that chair is, they're dead, and you hear what they're saying. So, and that, it falls to be good. Yeah, it falls to be good.

It just brings up, it's an instant feedback that makes you go, this isn't the right decision and falls to you to go into another place if you wish to. You could just stop, but then why? You can't stop because you're under stage. It's a big stage. So then, for me, it's just like, I go, I want them to lean in. I want them to listen. I want them to be with you. You can feel them there with you. And when you're with them, you go up and you roll. It's like a very, like, it's a relationship that they're there, but it's again, you have them having to feel like

it is private, you understand, and they're not there. So it's a thin line of like making it feel real, but also understanding that you're doing it for them, and that's the kind of line that you're treading. So you can't break that wall and start talking directly to them, or can you? You can if it's required. Like I remember one time, I did a pilot. I was in the notes in the pilot and I just did this random voice and I looked directly to them because I don't know.

I just felt I just felt I need to do it directly to them because it was just a real moment in the improv. And then you could do what you want as long as it feels real. Like just don't reject it. Like it's like, I wanna do that. I'm gonna do that. Like, because more time is about to do, to do, to do.

Anyone that's like that and doing that is like, well, who's that in the scene? You mean, in certain scenarios? When it's happening, are you always in the moment or are you ever thinking ahead? In the moment. The moment gets me ahead. If I take a step, I'm telling you, I want to go there.

If I trust that I'm going to go there, I'm not going to focus on, I'm just going to one step, one step, one step. What's that thing? Drop by a drop of river is formed. Focus on that. If you really mean it, you want to go there. If you focus on this, you'll get there. It makes you surrender and not be too controlling. Yeah, it sounds like free, like you're free.

I miss a great feeling. Present, present. It probably is also tiring because you have to really be paying attention. It's very like you're on. Yeah. It's like heightened. And because that was my way of creating now in every state

of creating, I'm in that height. And that's why it's quite draining. Because I'm just so on. I'm so ch-t-t-t. It's like, say, if I do certain interviews or like, it's just the way I show up in a focus way and I'm like, I'm on, all right, cool, just taking it and then you have to

go to places that top you up and water you and stuff out. go to places that top you up and water you and stuff that out. So much of today's life happens on the web. Squarespace is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world. Designing a website is easy using one of Squarespace's best in-class templates. With the built-in style kit, you can change fonts, imagery, margins, and menus, so your design will be perfectly tailored to your needs. Discover unbreakable creativity with fluid engine, a highly intuitive drag-and-drop editor. No coding or technical experience is required. Understand your site's performance with in-depth website analytics tools.

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it easy to create and customize a beautiful website. Visit squarespace.com slash tetra and get started today. You said that there was probably a time that you wanted to be good or great, but then you got to the point of where you realized you just want to be honest. When do you think that shift happened? I was tired of killing myself. I was tired of like ruining myself when I watched my performances. I was like, I hate, why'd I do that? I wouldn't do it.

You're crap. You're this. So much self hate. I was like, bro, if I keep doing this, I don't would not want to do this. This isn't fun. This isn't what's the point. Go, what am I doing? Like, I'm ruining them. I'm like so tough on myself because I wanted to, my stands were so high, but I would feel that, say if I'm doing this, remember, this is off the school club, these improvs. It's £5 of class. It's for underprivileged kids. So I'm doing it. I'm there and I do it

improv and then I, and then I'm on the bus home and a line with a customer, God, I should have said that. Fuck I should have said that. Beeping yourself up. For the whole week, Rick. Wow. The whole week I'm at school thinking,

I should have said that. And then you're building upon that line, you're building the building, next time, I was just got in that habit of like, I think getting in a habit is probably what my, what my in the dialogue, it was, I just got in that habit of like, I think getting a habit is probably what my, what my in the dialogue, it was at that time. I was just beating myself up, like nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah,

and then when I get the bank, so then when I was in more in a professional context and I watched my work, I just did the more professional version of that and I'll be like, nah, but yeah, it's really tougher because now it's like millions of people watching it. And it's not like a week ago, it's like four months ago, or six months ago, or a year ago, and you're like, and you've grown so much, and you're looking at your goal,

they are shit. Just saying them, you're like, whack, whack, whack, whack, and then I just realized that like, me wanting to be so good and so great was hurting me. And then like, no, it was hurting me. It was in hindsight. I see, I didn't realize that at the time. I'm in hindsight.

I see that it was limiting my growth and how much I could be, you know what I'm saying? Because I was prioritizing how I was perceived or my ego or just, I wasn't in service of the peace. I was in service of myself and wanting the next job or looking good in front of people or looking like the best or all that shit. I was more focused on that as opposed to just telling the truth.

I'm going on, you know what I'm saying? And so then I realized that like, when I telling the truth. I'm going on. You understand? And so then I realized that like when I tell the truth and go home, when I'm honest, then I'm free. If I pour and give all that I can, and I'm honest, I'm genuinely free, no one can say anything to me, especially me. Yeah, because you're being true in the moment, and that's all there is. It's all there is. I did all I could and I'm feeling like, yeah, could you have played a wild villain movie instead of Fred Hampton?

Yeah. And what would that have been like? How would it have been different? You can't have the light without the dark. Yeah. If light is consistently light, you ain't gonna register it, it's light. It's just consistent. It is. Yeah, there's nothing this consistently like you ain't gonna register it is light. It's just

Consistent it is yeah, there's nothing is nothing. Yeah, when you have the dark Then you are able to identify and define the life So I believe that whatever the story wants from me I am prepared to give it And wherever it wants from my soul and what I wear I'm at or wear the direct fulfills I'm at or then I can go at cool. I do it do, is it wherever I want to get in that space or not, but I do think that like, I could play, I could have played him, yeah. And it's just that Shakar, the director at the time, saw that his vision is the key synergy,

you're saying, but I think it would be a different film though. Yeah, for sure. And that's my thing, it's like, for sure. Every different, it's just a different thing. Yeah, I mean, so. Tell me. And that's my thing. For sure. Every different, it's just a different thing. Yeah, I mean, so. Tell me about the different directors we've worked with. How different are they?

So like, some of that Steve McQueen, right? He's more, I see him as like a composer. Like, he see, what he describes it to me or what, it feels like jazz, that we are all jazz players. And he's looking for the surprising moments. He's looking for that kind of like when a thought arrives to you in the moment, he's creating boundaries and the thing and he puts people that he trusts and that way in climb that are open enough to say the thing and then let the let reality show up through us.

He is that and he's got an innate understanding of human beings and one time I did a scene and he was doing another scene in a different location and I went to do like a stunt rehearsal and I came back to, said the other location he was at and he said to me, what did the room tell you? And he's like, oh, you get it. Oh, yeah, I get it. Yeah, that's what it does.

You go in there, you don't know what you're gonna do. Like, when you're like, got the site as a kind of kind of learning lens and then you're like, I'm like 60% there. Then the room's gonna tell you what to do. The earth's gonna tell you what to do. Then you start making decisions. Because that's what life is.

Like, I came in there and I thought I was gonna be in a situation with you. You used to, yeah, no socks. I saw this clumpy saw, I was like, I gotta take off my shoes. And then I'm here. It's the environment, then you're in it. So I think he very much encourages

that. Just saying and actually prioritizes that. So even in terms of dialogue, like he's more flexible with the dialogue to where improvisation is more a part could do. But I think I tell you what is is about improv, I was always improv, but then I started being quite enamored with how you get that improv quality within the restraint of, but I think that's what Dune Theatre gave me. Yeah, it's that you've got time. It's like when you say the line, how loud you say the line, how the pitch, how long you wait before you say all those things. I just got really like, I've got the feeling it really rewarding to kind of go, how I do it. I can say a line that makes that happen,

but then that just means I don't trust the right. And if I trust the right and I go, I'm like, cool. And actually, it was actually an experience on Sicario and learning from Benicio, and watching Benicio Del Toro. And he was like, kind of like, how'd you say less? So he was taking outlines.

I'd never seen that in my life. Oh, this guy is a dog. And then he's like, it's, and it is that, he's just like, I could say it in my face. I could say that in my face. And I started to be more going, how do I say more with less? Yeah, I started being way more on it with that.

And I think, I just, it's just my kind of thing. I'm not saying it's like better than anything else. I just got, it feels like, because I don't think people expose much in real life. Do you know what I mean? In terms of their manner, only in extreme situations they do when they really push.

And in terms of a challenge, getting all of the content across without saying anything, that's a noble challenge to take on. You know, how do you do that? Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, it's cool. I just find it cool. So that's how I would do that. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, it's cool. I just find it cool. So that's how I would do that.

But then it was like, how do I express that in-pro-quality with a look, with a gesture, with an energy shift. As you do that, that's what the camera really reads because then you're not saying four, you're saying two plus two. And then the audience leans in. If I give you the line and tell you fool, fool, fool, then you're like, you know what I mean, Jay-Z album.

You know what I mean, so it's like, because you're like having to kind of... It's like you're finding the words as you're saying them. So the camera sees you finding the words not just saying the line. The thought is what? I, especially during this process on the kitchen and being in a post-production detailed in the edit,

like I'm always on the engine when the thought arrives. That's what I realized. It made me articulate what I care about when I, it's like, like that's what's fascinating and then what are you gonna do with that? Yeah, and you may say the line you might not even say the line because you feel the thought. Yeah, you know You see something happen. Yeah, and it's like that shift is what is

Is rewarding and seeing an evolution? That's what you want that's what you you the enamoring quality of storytelling is evolution So if you see someone changed by someone that's what you, the enamoring quality of storytelling is evolution. So if you see someone change by someone that's happening, if you are ready, then you're ready. But if you like going and you move, and then you move on that, then the thought brings the light. So I give you an example, say, I see people like, I've seen my friends like,

oh, I've done your brother, I ain't seen your film, did it, did it, like, I know, I've done it, but I said, bro, it's cool. I said, no, I know, no, it's not cool, I've done your brother, I ain't seen your film. I'm like, I know, I'm not a nice brother. I said, bro, it's cool. I said, no, I said, no, no, it's not cool. I want to see it. I said, bro, the fact you want to is the thing. When you do it, it's up to your life. Like, you may have kids, you may do whatever it is.

The one is the thought, and that's the valuable thing. The act is the product of the one. So that's how I see the acting thing is like the line is the product of the thought. And seeing that thought arrive is the valuable bit of the story turning for me. And so then I go, and then the line is the actualization of that shift. So I looked to someone else's line, I'm listening, going, what is triggering this fool that makes me say this line? That's what I'm looking at for.

So I'm there with you, because, and one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my life in acting, it's mad, simple. I saw Josh Brody and this, and I'm amazing, yeah. I said, a lion, and then, like, I'm not trained, so sometimes I have diction issues. And then so I'm working on it continuously.

And then like, I went out in a secario. I said the, I was in the scene and he was going for it. And I said the line. And Josh had a line next and then he just went, what? What is that? And then I said the line again and then he just went what? What? What is that? And then I said the line again and then he replied, because he's there. Yeah.

He's not got the performance ready. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got a, he's listening. He's listening. He's listening and say like, what? Yeah. And then he, and then I had to say it again and go, oh yeah, but it's not like, that was just that revolutionized

my whole brain, I was 25, I'm going, what the fuck, that is the coldest shit, I've seen in my fucking life, it's so simple, it's like an insignificant scene, it's like that is one of the most, like he was there. And it weren't fake, and it made me go, that's the North Star. I mean, I'm not gonna say it until I hear it.

Why am I saying it? It's as simple as that. And it's the audacity to stand on that and commit to that. Because that's what real life is. If some of the, you just got what you say? Like, there's someone I know like, she's from the South, and I've got a deep line in that scene. We don't really understand each other. I have missed the term for her, she's been me,

but we all got built intentions, but that's what life is. And that's what you want. You just want to be listening and then that dictates every other decision. But yeah, that's Steve McQueen kind of breaks that space and then someone else, and it's extreme and another sense would be, I think that Ryan Cougs, like Couglaw,

very much, very bespoke. I would seem very bespoke that he speaks to everybody differently. He speaks to everyone he understands, and he's in it with you. Like, say as if there was like a screen test, and it was really cold, and the girl if I do a screen test test he would take his jacket off

and be in his t-shirt because you're on minute with you. You know what I mean? He's in it with you and like so you feel like you don't feel like an object. You're not saying you feel like you have a collaborator, you have a partner, you have someone that's in the battle with you. And then he knows you and he'll speak in your, what would bring what he wants out of you, but he was speak in the way that you would understand. And I see you speak differently to different people. And like, and that was really interesting. That was really interesting to see that. And and it's something that I've kind of like adopted when I have directed and stuff and like, and knowing that it, you've got to speak in a way

that it's not about just communicating. Communication is, people think communication is expression. Communication is commune. So you have to receive it in order for it to be communicated. And so people just prioritize what I wanna say. And they don't acknowledge in what how you receive it and if you be a man-man, it's about landing.

It's about landing on it. And I think he understands that and he understands I want it to really land so I'm speaking to you. And so you feel quite, you know, you feel quite spoken to and seen in that. How different is it depending on the skill level of the actor you're working with? It's different in a sense that like I think being doing a lot of low budget stuff like starting my career, like it was all low budget in short films and you're not really, you

have only two takes, you don't have a lot of time, you have a lot of your time and be not everyone's there. So I think I've learned how to, if the camera's not on me, I've learned how to lean heavy on something to get out. I'm gonna give it to you, the most you need. So that it really comes out and jumps out. If I had some director saying something,

I would then support what he's saying and support what he wants. Because it's about it coming out. You're not saying because it's we're in and in. But some people, you don't need to do that. You're not saying and in that day able to get their own way, then if surprised you and that will evolve what you're doing.

And so it's more like a dance that it can, it's like a dance and sometimes you have to lead more than needed, but someone is able to understand the steps then you've got into new spaces and do some new moves, but it's a reflection of what, both of you intended and what you want from the... Do you ever have it the other way where there's you're working with someone who's just so great

that you feel like it makes you better? Yeah, I've had a couple of moments where I was Yeah, I've had a couple moments where I was like, I've had a couple moments when I was like, well, someone said saying, and I went, I actually thought something, I was more, I was young, I was like, that's not necessarily great. But he said the line, so fresh. Yeah. And so present and so in it that it felt improv.

So I felt like it felt improv. So I felt like he felt like he made it up. Yeah. So I was like, huh? Yeah. And to then like, I stopped. Yeah. Then I was like, whoa. Like, actually, I'll say it was Chris O'Dowd.

Yeah. I did this TV show with Chris O'Dowd. And he just said, I was like, what the fuck? And he just went, whoop. And then I was like, oh, like, A, I wasn't in it. B, I was like too premeditated. Yeah. In terms of what you, I was told controlling. Yeah. Because I've been worked, I hadn't worked with people

that were at a high level. Yeah. Probably at that point, I was 19 and like, I was like, oh, like, you're gonna say in a way, I wouldn't even imagine, you're gonna say it in a way I would have even imagined. You're gonna put intonations in places I was like, oh shit. And then it made me just let go of preconceived notions and preconceived thoughts. And then you go just be more cool. It could say anything it could come anyway and a bit more.

And I think that makes you, it's not like, well, I'm learning now, it's not like, growth is not about adding, it's about subtracting. In time, oh, I can let that go. And then you'll reach a four,

what you let go. You know what I mean? It's what I have learned about when you're dealing with someone great. So I say, if that Josh Brolin story, that's dealing with someone great. So I say, is if that Josh Brolin story, that's dealing with someone great. And he showed me like, I've got a diction, there's something that there's a thing that's in my way,

there's a, I have an anxiety about something that I need to let go of. But also that like, I assumed he's just gonna say the line because I said it. You know what I mean? As opposed to, because that's the job. As opposed to a completely different idea, which is actually being present, truly, and listening.

Really, it's taught me a lesson in listening. Yeah. That was like, come with less, come to the scene with less, and then you will feel more. L-M-N-T Element electrolytes. Have you ever felt dehydrated after an intense workout or a long day in the sun? You want to maximize your endurance and feel your best? Add element electrolytes to your daily routine.

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And stay salty with Element Electrolight. L-M-N-T. How do you say developing these skills in your craft impact your daily life? Are you always listening? Are you always in that regardless of whether you're on or not? How is life different than how it used to be for you? I think, yeah, I'm probably listening too much. That's probably what I lean on certain vices to distract. Like, it says if I'm taking too much in, I'll be food, taste. Like, my phone, like, things that I, like, substance substances, you know what I'm saying? Like I'll be just like, all right, cool. Let me get out of this, this vein, like like, you should be drinking,

or just saying, it's like, we just get out of this vein because I'm taking into much and I have too many feelings about what I'm taking in. It creates me, it makes me highly sensitive. And like, so then it's, so then I like silence. I like being by myself. I like, I'm very comfortable in my own company because there's less to respond to. I can hear people's chaos

and I can hear what they say, I can hear it. You can hear more and you have to kind of like, I've had to learn tools to kind of deal with that and actually be okay with it. It's actually being okay with what it triggers in me. Like, oh, I've read some way like, I never used to be able to sit for a film because he used to trigger me too much.

I know the fall asleep. It was a pandemic. The pandemic showed me that when I was like, because it was like, I had loads of sleep, yeah? And then like, I would watch a film. You could still fall asleep. I would fall asleep. So I wasn't about sleep.

I was like, my mom was sleeping. But it was just a moan. It was like an escape. You could still fall asleep. I would fall asleep. So I wasn't about sleep. I was like, my mom was sleeping. But it was like an escape. You wanted to escape. I had two, I would watch a film every day, at like 11 a.m. in a pandemic. So I've had my good mother sleep. I've read today, I've eaten my breakfast. I like breakfast, not heavy breakfast.

That would slow me down. And then I would still sleep. So then it was basically, even without the vices, I was running away from it from whatever it opened. You understand? So I realized I had to deal with that. You understand I have to deal with like,

why do I want to run? Why do I want to not take in what or accept to all? Maybe because it's not usually not what, it's usually that I like something about it. That's what it's helped me. What do I like about this? Do you get lost in the story? Or if I feel the direct is confident, I get lost. If I feel the direct, you can see that in the first frame, it's just basically, do they know where they're going?

Are they going to take you and do you feel safe? Yeah, I do. The first thing about the first frame, I feel like when a piece of music comes on in the downbeat, like in the first sound you hear, what do you say? You really kind of have a feeling of what's about to happen.

Like you need lowering so much before the song even plays. Just like the intention of the first note. Yeah, I'm an obsessive music. I love music because I think I love music because it's an art form that I'm not a part of. Yeah, I'm saying so it's like, I could just be a fan, like, that means I'm a stess.

And I was just, there was a time I was just, I was just so stess. And I knew first five seconds, I knew if this producer knows what they do or where they're going, it's, but for me it was like the notes they don't play. It's the notes they leave out, and they go, oh, they're confident, they know it.

It's just that that's the same thing is like same with the first frame. It's like they know where they're going. Or if it moves you, does it make you the haunts? If there's no intellectual, there's no intellectual justification. There's nothing to think about. You feel it or you don't.

Feel it or you don't. Does it move you? And that's whether that person intended that, or they just have that innate intention. Yeah. Zane, you just know what's going on. I mean, that's how I feel. Well, I can film. That allows me to surrender and I can walk on with you.

But when I'm like, it's hard because sometimes it's like you're thinking different versions of it and then sometimes you're just inspired and it's open and new way, I was like, oh shit, I could do that. Yeah, yeah. Do you make notes while you watch? Yes, sometimes I do. No, I do. No, I do. I watch that just write things down. I have this thing now and what I'm doing now, I just started, but like, just have a list of my films that I love and I just watch that every morning. That's the first thing I do. It's watch to film my love before I read a script that I need to films that I love and I just watched it every morning. That's the first thing I do. It's watch to film my love before I read a script that I need to read before I do things that I need to do.

But they differ on every day. Yeah, they differ. Like, just like a joyous one. It's all your network. How many, yeah, how many are there on your list of ones you love? 30 for me. You mean, I thought you said it's done five or six of them now

because I'll have to come back from all the day. Because I remember I read somewhere, yeah. And they said, you should always revisit the things that you love as a teenager because you are waiting there. You know what I mean? Yeah. It was like stuff that you went to, just because you went to it.

There was no like, I wanna do it to use it. This is just like, I love it and so I'm glad. And then you'll meet yourself again. That's what it says, you'll meet yourself again. Do you ever go back and watch something that you loved when you were younger and it doesn't hold up? Sometimes, yeah.

Sometimes way, I find out with books. Well, I've moved. It disment a lot to me at that time. And now it was the time that was me receiving it, not necessarily. It's like the right teacher showing up when you're ready. If like at that point in your development, that spoke right to me that allowed it. But then I've moved on and evolved from that.

So now I revisit it. It was about it. It was about what it to me that allowed it, but then I've moved on and evolved from that. So now I revisit it. It was about it. It was about what it triggered me and what it developed and moved to me. So then like, I think that's what the best work does. It's, for me, the best work is the thing that triggers something in me, more than me getting involved in it.

100%. And that's what I feel like. This is what I'm think I'm starting to realize in this process, the kitchen is like, like I think we're so media obsessed. Media has just like taken over all narrative, right? And just that style of narrative, because it tells you what to think.

And it's the equivalent, what I think art, what media does is go, here's a fish, and art goes, here's a fish, and art goes, here's a fishing route. Here's how to think. About whatever the fuck you want to think about. Or the art might even just say, look at this, without saying here's a fish. And then you get to say, oh, it's a fish.

But you get to say that. Yes, two plus two. Yeah, I don't like being told what to think. Yeah, I don't like it. I don't enjoy it. I don't enjoy it It's a lot of things like what it's more interesting what I discover. Yeah, and I but I I think That way of thinking of not liking what to think is not Comment yeah, like it. I think people want to know what to think is what I wonder I'm starting to accept

That I don't believe that I have to say I don't believe that I don't think I certainly don't want to believe it But I but I also I hold people highly enough to believe they don't want to be told what to do. I don't think Well, I the maybe this is me is I'm thinking I was like I think I have a four-year issues and so and I don't get a lot of people don't So they say so So they trust. Yeah. They have whatever great relationship with whoever person that they had

their great relationship with. And so they didn't create this autonomy. Yeah. And then they go, oh, I caught this person, so let's go. They wanna be lit. And I think that's a different kind of person. I think the culture that we have at the moment encourages that side of people and punishes

people that aren't like that. Thus people, you have to really believe in it to hold on to It's like, you have to really believe in it to hold on to one in your own thoughts and wanting to think independently. And a lot of people is just not that deep for them to hold on to that. And then it's like, they're not like resisted, not emotionally resistant to that way of being led. That's a heartbreaking idea to me. I think it's okay. Tell me why.

I think it's okay because it's like, what am I called? What we're going to give them? You know what I mean? If you deny it, then you consistently try to get someone to do something that they don't want to do. I see. You know what I mean? As opposed to giving them what it serves them

in the way that they want, it's that communication thing. It's accepting and believing what you see. Understood. And going, yeah, I've got, that's how this person wants it. All right, maybe for me is a lot of my frustration with my creativity in my life is me being resistant to that,

to that, to me going, you should, you should, but look at me and say I'm should, should, should, should, should, should there's a cancer of a word? Yeah. Jansana is like, it's not even like, I'm telling you what to think about how to think. Like I'm telling, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like I'm like, I'm being like them. Yeah. As opposed to accepting and going,

all right, you're like that, going, do you think that? Yeah, I think it's cool that people do what they want. I just find it hard to believe that people just want to be told what to do and follow. I find it, I just find it hard to believe. I think it's because you don't. Yeah, I know.

That's my only point to you. But you'll, but you'll read. Do you think you'll come in? No, but I also think, I mean, historically, the things that I've liked seems like other people seem to like. Like I've made things that I like. A lot of other people like them.

So I think there must be as odd as I feel, as different as I feel. There's some commonality there because I'm not making anything for anyone else. I'm only making it for me. But the difference is is that you made it. They didn't make it. So the fact that you can make makes you separate to them.

Yeah. It means that you have a different idea. Yeah. And they are like going, oh cool, that person, that's what they're into. Cool, I'm just onto what, yeah, that's cool. And oh yeah, that is good. I like that, it moves me. They are looking to you to tell them, like, what's good?

Oh, this is what you've heard? Because I don't think ideas are ours. I don't think, I think it's like, I agree. You're going into the pond, the efficient, and then they, whoa. 100%. 100%. So it's like, you're going into the pond, the efficient and then, whoa, 100%. So it's like, you're starting to laugh to you, you've worked your ass off in China, actually, that's like, it does, it's like, you're born, this is how I interpret life,

right? So then I go, this is what I've learned in my career, like, I've from a cancerous state, I don't know if it's like the projects in London, like, people don't act from it, so I get to a secret. at cancer with state, I don't know if it's like the projects in London, like, people don't act from our form. So I get to see a crew. And so everything I would do, like, I would go, I can see something's possible, and I go to Rik, you see that? And then that usually that person goes, I'm sorry, I'm like, they wouldn't even see it.

And then I go, alright, cool. I'll work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work, work I work, work, work, work, work. I'm fucking awesome. I'm fucking awesome. And then the wind is putting it there, and that person say, I don't know if you've seen this. He's like, it's mad, isn't it? Yeah. I don't tell him. Yeah. But now it's there.

He's showing. I show him. So, but that makes me drastically different to them. Yeah. And like, what I used to be is in denial that I come just different, like you're just doing the different things. I'm like, wait, I was in Brooklyn long time.

I sat next to the opposite of this guy. I said, would you, would you, I just spend your time, he's like, yo, I make tables. I'm like, what the fuck? I'm just gonna make tables. What tables? It's like, I make the that we're on right now. It had like a fucking sewing machine at the bottom of it

and I'm looking at it and I'm like, how did you get there? Yeah. I'm just gonna buy whatever, I'm gonna go to a key and buy a table. Yeah. I don't need to like, understand,

do you mean it's like there's different departments in life where I delegate and it's whether I am aware of what I like or who I trust to receive what I like or who I trust, to receive what I like and what I trust. And some people go, oh, I relat that. And they able to wear and identify that. But they're not in a business of like control. You mean, that's how I see it.

But we're talking about now thinking for someone else, which is different than making something for someone else that people want to be thought for. That's a scary idea to me. Yeah, he's awesome. He's awesome. But, you know what I'm saying? It's a different idea. Yeah, he's, yeah.

I want you to tell me how to live my life. That's crazy. No one can do that. There's no version of that that's okay. But they do do that. I know. It doesn't, but it's like, it's you think like, no one man can have all that power.

It's like, I don't think it's like, it's like, control and power. It's control and power. And freedom. And I think it's either freedom or not freedom. Most of the choice, one is, it's if you're free to decide what you want, how you want to do it, that's freedom. Those are the, those are the choices. One is it's if you're free to decide what you want, how you want to do it, that's freedom. And if someone's telling you what you're allowed to do and

not allowed to do it, this is how you think about it. If you think about it differently than this, you're wrong, you're in trouble. But, but I don't think everyone's prepared for the cost and responsibility of freedom. That's not a human thing. I don't think we've been prepared for it. A lot of people have been prepared for it. They haven't been given the tools to prepare themselves for all of that cost. It's like going in there and going,

or like, who I'm lifting 300 pounds. You've got to build up to lift in 300 pounds. Yeah. And it's a heavy weight. Yeah. Just saying and like, that's what I know, I really like a lot of people want to putts a leadership, but they don't want to cost.

And I find that in terms of being autonomous and within your mind and within your thoughts and within your direction of your life, go, I want to go here, I want to go there. It's a big, you have to go through a lot of my experiences to be truly free in terms of freedom is just like, oh, I can just do that.

Just saying, oh, I wanna do this. It's where I'm at right now. Like, me, I'm open to like learn and figuring it out, but that's where for me, for me, I just feel like a lot of people are not prepared for that class and they're cool with it. And I think the environment that has been built within the West doesn't actually encourage it

because it's too complicated and there's too much choice. And then it's like the overwhelming of like I feel like the internet is just going like alright cool knowledge is power give them all the knowledge so then you go and know what to get because you got too much information yeah you mean and now you're like alright quiet just come on come on curate Welcome to the House of Macadamias. Macadamias are a delicious superfood. Sustainably sourced directly from farmers. Macadamias, a rare source of Omega-7, linked to collagen regeneration, enhanced weight management, and better fat metabolism.

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Visit houseofmacademius.com slash tetra. I can actually argue the other side of what I was saying based on what you just said that's interesting. I remember when the streaming revolution first started and I remember feeling like, wow, I don't have to go to the store and buy a CD or vinyl that I could hear any piece of music I want at any time. If I just think of something that I heard 25 years ago, I could listen to that right now. And I thought, I'm just gonna want a DJ all day. And I came to realize very quickly.

I don't want a DJ all day. And I want to be programmed too. And it's fun when a song comes on that I wasn't expecting. It's a great experience. And I love that. I get to have discovery versus choice. That's fun too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's people wanna be thrilled in that way. Like I would be like that back in day and radio shows. I'd be like, all right, this is the DJ. I follow DJs. Yeah. And I go, all right, I could, this guy speaks to me. He's gonna drop a song that I've never heard.

What's this? I just won't find it. You know what I'm saying? It won't arrive to me. That person is, that's their job. That's what they do. You know what I'm saying? And you wanna be kind of,

that's what I'm trying to say. It's like, it's a thrill when that relationship is trusting and like enriching and open stores for you. You know what I'm saying? But I think the way that it sometimes is used now is used to control and is used to diminish and is used to suppress. What you're describing though is a trusted source who you pick. Yeah.

Imagine if you got assigned a source of what you were allowed to listen to musically and you didn't respect their taste. That wouldn't be good. No, it wouldn't. But then if there was no other options, wouldn't you just have to like find the good in it? Yeah. Well, that's how it used to be when we didn't, when everything was an underman. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And like, and all you would create what you want. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, it that's the, that's what, I think that's something we've both done. Yeah, exactly that.

It's like, create the thing that isn't there that you want. Rob, I just make films, I wanna watch and I want my friends to watch. That's it. Simple as that. Simple. It's worthy of my simple. And you can't, if you think past that,

it'll screw the whole thing up. Yeah. And sometimes someone's got there and done it before me. And I'm like, oh, thank God. Yeah, I don't have to do it. I was like, yes, see. That's really cool. Let me see what they did.

Oh, they were closer to it. I did it, they did it. Yeah, cool, cool. Do you mean it's just that that's it? Like, it's not like, I mean, it's just if not Austin, who? Yeah. It's us. Yeah.

Do you mean it's like, you just go and then just do it? And then that's a certain kind of person that has a certain kind of, nah, I want it like this. You know what I mean? Not everyone has that. It's what I'm accepting. And it's quite, I feel like I've been quite baby like when a baby feels like everything is them.

You know what I mean? They have this reality where like, oh, this fool is them. You mean they had this reality where like, oh that this fool is me and this thing is me. They were like, that's what I kind of been internally in my creative life and feel like, well, I can do it. And that's been a kind of been dismissive of what I've been given. Yes. And what radio station I can hear. Yes. Saying it's like I can hear things

because the experiences that I've had and my exposure, the fact that my family didn't speak English when I was a kid. Thus I read, so obviously that tends to lean itself for improv because I'm losing body language. If I ask you, what is the kitchen? You tell me what comes up for you? If I ask you, what is the kitchen? You tell me what comes up for you.

A representation of an energy and an idea that for me is the essence of what the Londoner I grew up in and the Londoner I saw. And I do feel that there is a kitchen and a corner of the kitchen in every city There is a kitchen, an corner of the kitchen in every city that has a like, fuck you. We do what we want and we don't give a fuck. You want us to leave? No. But the narrative manifestation of that is a self-sufficient community within this film of kitchen that are, they just did a last-land standing. It's like it's a community of people that are still connected, that still believe in oneness,

that still believe in community, and they are being asked to leave. And they said no, and they are dealing with the repercussions of that answer. Is how it feels to me. So, is it a realistic drama or is it the science fiction? What genre is this story being told as? Is it an image genre?

I don't think so. I think it has elements of a lot of things. And it has a science fiction conceit. However, it's heart, it's an intimate drama about this man and this boy and how they reconnect. I think what when I boil it down is basically when your relationship has changed with your child, how do you redefine a friendship?

After a level of absence. And that can be applied to a mother and daughter when a daughter is gone to uni or college for a couple of years and they haven't been seen each other every day and they come back and that daughter is a different person. And now they have to redefine their relationship and actually find a friendship.

I've got it. You mean? And I feel like the strongest bond to get to with a parent, child, is what I'm... I mean, this is me, my thoughts right now, that's not me. This is one of it, it's because I'm just living my life and figuring it out.

But that for me is what the, yeah, the intimate drama of it is like knowing that in order to fight with out there, you have to be together within yourself and with the people that you care and love about. And if you're at war with yourself, then you are no use to the war out there. Are you in it as well as writing it? No, I'm just directing it right and producing it. I'm not in it. Cool. And how's that experience of directing and not acting?

I love it. I started, I used to rap. I wrote my fifth play when I was nine. I used to rap plays. I wrote on the show, I was 18, 19. And then I was 19, wrote two episodes of skins, and I just had nothing to say. 19. I was like, I got a live. And then I've gone back to here and directing, and right, producing.

It's just that kind of thing. Well, it's got me to fall in love with the art again. Because I think there's something about acting the more successful you get, the more isolated you become. And I think I fell in love with the collaborative nature of it. And what directing and writing and producing does, I think directing does it, it allows you to collaborate and it allows you to kind of talk in and allow you to have funny jokes

and grips, it allows you to, you mean you're back in it and the thick of it? It's not weird that I'm there. Like when I go on set and I'm like hanging out, is that people move like, why are you here? And jump in and so it makes you feel like you don't wanna be there because you're not supposed to be there

and then you find out why you're not supposed to be there. Well, you're just not required to be there. I think people usually go where they're required to be. Yeah, yeah, and you have to hold your position, you're playing a position. And I think with this, it's like I fell in love with like, I fell in love with having an idea, getting a team of people, having a fucking laugh, yeah, and having a great time being really happy, and then producing something that is a reflection

of that time that we had. That's great. That's what I fell in love with and that's what I felt like I've found with this. Is that like, oh man, like just make things with people that I fuck with, I care about, that challenge me, that I grow with, I challenge them,

and then we have a lot, we do have fun, we joke, we have like, we spend time, then there's this thing that we've made that is essentially like a photo album. Of the time that we shared for us. What triggered the initial idea to make it? How did it start? I was in the barbershop.

And I grew up and this guy was talking about these smashing grabs. I wish he was like doing million pound of highest in a minute. He was chatting, I'm sitting there, I'm like, this guy was talking about these smashing grabs. I wish he was like doing million pound of ice in a minute. He was shouting, I'm sitting there, I'm like, this guy is chatting about his business. He's very trusting of everyone in this barbershop. You know what I'm trying to listen to. He's like, yeah, no, I'm doing this, man. I was listening, I was like, I really want to watch that film.

I was just chilling in the barbershop. I was like, waiting for my appointment. This is like 10 years ago. I was like, I don't even want to watch that film. That'd be sick film. I couldn't stop thinking about it. And then I, the couple months when buying that guy, I didn't see him again.

I said, what happened to that guy? And it kind of was vague, but it was kind of like, basically, he went away. Like, I'm presuming he went prison or whatever. I don't know what kind of happened and I was like, huh? And I did more digging around it and I was like, wow, they're doing these million pound higher to the minute and they were getting paid 200 pounds. So they're rubbing diamonds and they were getting paid 200 pound with.

And I was like, there is conflict in that. That says so much about London, that says so much about where we're at, that says so much about the worth, how valuable they believe their life is. There's so much happening in that, and then I was like, I don't go there. It was like, the aesthetic intrigued me, and then the dichotomy made me dig. Where did the man and the child piece come from? I'm not so conscious. And you don't have children?

No. And I think it was, what's the thing you're scared to say? Because what it was, we understood it was like, it was like about the eye and we. I mean, that like, I was just obsessed about how people vote against their interests. You mean? Because they vote aspirationally. Because I wanna be there, therefore, I'm going to support that

and undermine myself and not accept where I'm at and that rarity. And what was the intimate manifestation of that? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Which was basically a man that is so about himself he's not being able to be present for a child that he's co-created. And so yeah, so that's where it was in exploring that.

It's about starting, I really believe starting a character in a really cr... Like, negative place, so they can really go on the journey and really put in the ugliness up front, you know what I mean? And what I've found in this process, when you put the ugliness up front, it then triggers people, because some people go, I wish I could do that. You know what I mean?

I wish I could be like that. You know what I'm saying? It was like, but there is a respect there because that person is being honest and they're telling you who they are. And that's that who they are, it's not serving them. And the journey, and they understand it's not serving them, it's who they've been taught to be. And it's them getting closer to who they are,

and what they care about. That's the journey of Izzy and this. And then Benji as a boy accelerates that journey within him and then he learns, Benji learns and grows for himself as well. At what point did the father and son appear in the creation of the story?

Because the first story that you told me inspired by the conversation at the the barber shop, it's not that. No. So at what point did it the father and son show up? We sure tasted tape. So we shot in the barber shop. I was, we shot a taste tape and I wanted it to be like reservoir dogs in the barber shop.

And that's what we shot. Yeah. And then it was just style. It was just cool. It didn't mean anything. Jatin Sam. And then it was just these iterations about like, what's he doing in four? He's doing it for his kid.

And then the kid was like a baby. He's like a baby. I was like this. And it was like, it's no warping. It was like, but the reality is it grew as we grew, is essentially, I directed with Kid Boy Tavarez and as we grew, it grew. And as we were more frank,

I can speak for myself, I was more frank with myself, I was more frank with my blind spots, it then go well, let's do it. Okay, we have to go, we have to go. Any kit, Tom, go in, all right, cool. But I don't think that decision of that boy, that man having a kid was out of nowhere, but I just don't think he was aware that we went there.

Jetson. And I don't think it's like, it's just things that are coming out that feels right. Yeah, that feels right. But it's not like, you boom, because I just, I don't think I was,

that aware in my creativity to know that. I mean, one time when I first wrote on skins, it was about this girl who has become pregnant and she's got to decide whether she's going to go drama school or have this baby. Not drama school, look, for agent. We go to music school or have this baby. And then when I watched it back when I was 18,

I was sitting there and I was like, oh, this is about my wrestling with the fact that I'm going to go drama school, if I'm going to just go fuck it, I'm going to go for this career. And it was coming out. And that's why I just felt like I could just do it. But I'm not aware. Yeah, it's like a dream. You don't know what it means when it's happening.

But if you look years later, if you wrote it down, it's like, oh yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, so I think that's where the father's son came in because there are questions that you want to explore in the same way that I want to explore the aesthetic, the world, those questions. And then we set in the future, not to distance future because we wanted to feel big and we wanted to be felt free from the rigidity of reality right now and actually be able to use our imagination. You know what I'm saying? And actually go and imagine and then actually tell more of the truth when you use more

of your imagination. Did you have a full script before starting the film or was it something that evolved as you're making it? Evolved continuously. Definitely. Continuously evolved. And it was like, and that was the process because of the what I realized is it's a reflection of the people that are involved. Did you start with an outline or anything?

I was just right at the beginning of the process. Yeah. An outline. An outline. An outline. I wrote an outline. An outline. An outline, I wrote an outline. And we're sitting outline of to the end, or was it an outline of, this is how the story starts.

The taste of was just the outline of the taste of, and what, like, this is the specific scenes that had a loose arc, and then had to lose beginning and end, but that version of film would have been like 20 minutes. Then when we did that, we expanded on it, and then I did that whole outline to an end. And then you have that outline, then you go back and forth with the production company, and then you're going back forward to producers and building it up.

And then you get to line to a more realised outline, and then you'll go to script, and then you write that script. The script that I wrote is not the film, first of the film that's there. So it kept on evolving and kept on like the process allowed it to come to. Would you say that it's better than the script or different than the script? It's more realised than the script. It's more realised than the first ever draft. It's more succinct. It's more pointed. It's more realising the first ever draft. It's more succinct. It's more pointed. It's more honest.

It's more in service. I think that felt, I'll be real. I think that first draft was trying to show how good I can write. And I thought it was well written script, but you can't. So I think that, I think a lot of ego had to die in me and in all the people in all the for us to get to, to where we got to. I mean, I started to script like at 23, 24, so I was trying to, I had a negative experience when I was 19, when I wrote, I wrote a script and I wanted to prove, I wanted to prove how

good I was. I was in that good stage, good great stage. And then I think the story suffered because of, there was too much meat. And any point did you consider it being a series as opposed to a film? No. I've written so many versions, but I could have a series worth of it.

But no, I love the completeness of film. I love the fact that like in a pandemic, I'm just watching something from the 70s, randomly, 150s. I'm just there. I don't think you do that with TV shows, even though I love Twilight Zone. Yeah.

I was gonna bring up Twilight Zone earlier. I really was when you described it being the way you described it, rooted in reality, but being able to go beyond reality I was thinking, oh, like a father and son story taking place in the Twilight Zone. Yes, exactly that. Exactly that way, that basically is the works at a funeral home that turns bodies into trees. You mean, because they've got this whole technology home that turns bodies into trees. You mean, because they've got this whole technology

and turns bodies into trees and because they run out of space, I mean, and they need to help the environment to run out of cemetery space. And if you have money, you have the option to choose where your tree is. And if you don't, you don't. You mean, it's like, and that's where it's just like, it's exploring what the principles and the conflicts

of now through a surreal version of it. Let's imagine, you know what I mean? Let's just go there and like to the kitchen is this community that feels like an estate, it feels like a block, but it's a whole town, it's a whole community, it's supposed to feel like London, it's supposed to feel like, this is like, you're a week like, like, I was fighting my book and researcher, I love, I'm just about like, I don't think London's so interesting,

as a city, because it was bombed. If people don't actually forget that, That it was, Paris wasn't, because it was occupied and London was. And so a lot of it's temporary. And then what I realized wasn't doing a research, a lot of like in the blitz, it was fear and then not just bomb London and then people were panic, panic, panic.

And then when they would survive, what then happened was like, oh, shaman, invincible. There was an attitude like, what the fuck? And there was less fear the more they bombed. So it was having the opposite, it was making them more resilient. And I was like, oh, that is still in,

we are in a lineage of that. That's still here. That's really interesting. That's still here. That result, the positive outlook of that trauma still exists within the essence of London. I saw that when I was on a bus, when I was like 11, I went to big boy's school, went to a boy's school,

I'm on a bus now, the brother's the older boy's like, all right, we try and get off the bus. The job's like, you know what I get off the bus, and he's like, oh, open the thing, press the emergency button in the middle of the road and walk down. What the fuck? That, I could see that. Do you know what I mean?

It's like, what the fuck is you're talking about? I'm not really, you know what I mean? It's like, that's what I wanted to show. And it's like what I've been around and what I've seen and what I've feeling me, you know what I mean, it's like and I think a lot of like my career and what I've done is because like bro like you can hit me and I'll get stronger. My thing I need to stop because I have in the past gone to be hit

in order to grow, which is the different thing that I'm learning to leave. But I just saw that, I thought that was interesting. And I just saw that like, I wanted that essence. I mean, but it's about how do you imagine that essence? How do you, cinematically, articulate it? Tell me about the landing you grew up in. Growing up in a, I was born in Camdentown? Very punk. Very counter-culture, very... Who's this after punk rock? Or during punk rock? Nice, like, yeah, obviously. So I was born in 89.

Yeah. And so then my first memories as a scene, like people with spikes. And it was, I think it was just a point where it was People were still believing in it, but it was at the tail end of true punk But it still had that kind of like there was just no place in fucking England that it's like Camden and it's still where that it just like like and massive drug culture in Camden And massive drug culture in Camden. And you're exposed to a lot.

I remember one time this guy came on the bus and he had spikes on his boots, spikes on his trousers, spikes on his jeans, and he had a purple, spaggy hair. And I'm looking, I'm like, what the fuck is happening? I'm like six, I'm looking, and my mum doesn't, it's not worried, no one else is batting eyelid. And then it made me go, oh, then I't know why I won't look at him weird then.

So it taught me that people are supposed to be different. You mean it just a bit, that's the punk actually living with that punk energy is like, okay, you're a different uncle, but it's accepting. The person that does not affect my life, why would I go, it's not like, even though it's like, everyone can't ever get... Oh, okay, cool. And I behaved nuts the long I grew up with, but also it's like, I grew up in a block in a state

and it's just that kind of danger, that kind of excitement, that kind of like, everyone's funny, everyone is up to a scheme, everyone is, there's all these like, it's like probably 95 doors and everyone, there's something happening, there's arguments, there's this, there's that, there's that, there's like, there's like people losing, people losing their kids

to the system, people like winning the lottery because they won like 500 pounds or there's everyone, there's like, there's so much life. And also for me, it was like, you weren't defined by what you didn't have. And I feel like minute I moved, I got better grades and I went to a better school because I got a better grade, like I got,

yeah, I got grades. And then what I have says, I don't think the school was better. I think the school was like, seen as better, or they allowed kids with good grades in and they didn't allow kids with not good grades in. I then became aware that I was working class and that idea and that, my identity was in conjunction

to another class's identity and the whole class. And I was like, but once I was in, I knew when that happened. 16, 17. But before that, so long time. So there's something I'm like, but once I was in it, I will be when that happened. 16, 17. But before that. It's a long time. So there's something I'm saying, before that, I was just like, everyone's in it.

You might want to raise your own. Would you say it was happy childhood? I would say, yes and no. I would say that like, it was happy, it was joyous, it was fun, and it was up to scheming. It makes you like, I think you get you early, like, all right, cool was fun, and it was up to scheming, it makes you like, you get your early, or at cool, how'd you play with this trolley? You know what I mean?

You learn how to just play with things around you, or at cool, friend water bombs, like people running the streets, and you know what I mean? It's like, but it's real life. Yeah. Like the blocks are filled with people that like, what, in hostels,

majority with single mothers, and they've got a property, do you mean, and you kind of like, getting yourself up, and build yourself up? This is the reality of my block, and then you leave. I was really resentful of gentrification,

and then in this process I realized that the junction nature of London is London. The kind of people coming in and out, it's like, oh, it's Irish people. That's what makes London London. It's the Jamaican. Yeah, it's the Somalis. It's the, it's the Kosovoans. It's the, There's a new wave come out. You come in, leave. If that whole thing about things are always supposed to stay the same, holding on to that,

is hurting yourself. And it's just, it's supposed to move. It's actually, I've worked hard to stay in and I realize everyone's moved. So then what my fightingin' to stay for, the place isn't the thing, it's the people. So that's why it was exploring that nature when people say, nah, I'm staying,

but then what's the reality of like, people go, oh, you should stay, but it's like, say if your kid doesn't feel safe, what a fuck are you staying? You mean, it's like, of course. And people don't actually realize, oh, this is real life. And I, and I wanted to kind of show the side. Also, you didn't choose it originally. You know, do you just happen to be there?

It's comfort. It's familiar. And it's whether, if you had, what's that I love now? And I put that in all decisions I make in my life. It's like, if I started this now, would I decide, would we decide to do it this way? It's not friendly. In the end of it, it's that, like, I didn't choose to grow up where I grew up. And then you got to a point where like, would I choose to stay in the block? Would I choose here? Probably not, but it's just what I know. Yeah. In and it's that.

Tell me about your family. Grat on my mum, my older sister. How much older? Eight years. Too long time. Yeah. And yeah, like from Uganda, you don't both born here.

So I was the only one that was born in England. Earlier you said, people in your family didn't speak English? Obviously my mom, early years, just saying it's like she came to England to give birth to me. Wow. So she learned English and my life was a reflection of that. Do you speak you guy in the middle?

No, I don't speak look-and-and-no. Like, she spoke to me in English. That was our thing. But so there's a lot of things that I'm not, I don't have access to, but I do have access to, in the sense that I can understand certain things, but I like, I read body language, and understand that that is a true language. And I take that in and I'll read tone.

I'll listen to tone to really understand. So there's like, I probably go, you're gandered, I have an art, either doesn't speak English, I don't speak lookand, and we have a great time. Jamine, it's not like, it's not like that, but yeah, so when I'm kind of starting from nothing, I kind of grew everything, you know. Never make your dad.

They does a kid, Danny, he left my life, and then he passed away when I was really young. And then I didn't really have a relationship, no. An extended family or just your mom moved? I had aunties and cousins in London. In London. I had family in London and basically it was like, it was cool within, I think, you know, family stuff happened

and then I didn't really, you know, beef and like in the family and then suddenly we didn't really work hard anymore. So then it was just that kind of the nuclear element of our family by like post like nine ten. But I've got cousins in London, I've got a family I love them. Was there music played in your house? Yeah. Lots like Boney M, Abba.

I'm love, Abba. I'm loving Abba. I'm loving Elton John, I'm loving Queen, Michael Jackson. There's this, you got to know, I was good to fill it. Oh, no, in a bit tree, he's got this song called Born in Africa and a song called in Tebe. And then whenever I listen to it, it just triggers me and just such sweet music. Like, and what's interesting about that time is like,

no matter how much money you had, you had a great sound system. Everyone had a great sound system. And yeah, music was just everything. It was just like, it was always played, always played in my house. A lot of those guys, I love it, I was called. Yeah.

Trying to picture it, how collar the buildings. So including ground? Yeah. Because you guys include this four. So it's three, we would say three, but it's four. And only the top floor had up stairs. And it wasn't like a high rise, but it was big. And if you go on top floor, you can see down, and you can see a great view of London,

and see all the buildings, if you're at the top floor. That's where I wrote, when I wrote, it's script, wrote this woman, Simpholio, you know, we passed our IP, she used to travel to Africa for half the year, and then like, allowed me to house it, and I would write there, and she was at the top flat,

and I could see the whole of London whilst I was writing. So it was a bit like, you could see the view, not too high, but you could see it. It's a good thing. Were there buildings that you were in the highest buildings in the area? Or as high as the highest buildings in the area? It's as high as the highest buildings. So there were no skyscrapers around you? No.

No, it was just like kind of like medium sized kind of like buildings around. Yeah, it wasn't really a skyscraper environment. It was kind of the borderline of Camden in Iceland. It's kind of like I would say like a no man's land. It kind of doesn't have the name the area like people like kind of loads or some punk gruesome people. You can say it's Kennish town. You can say it's Camden.

It's like, you can say it's like near Market Road, it's like a kind of like near Cali Road, it was just this area, but it was not a lot of high-rise. And it was like, it's amazing, Afro-Turfs pitches at Market Road that everyone would play games in. And so the best footballers around the area would go there and all these teams would go there,

would go there to play games, and it was a block across the road. It was a petrol station there and it was like, if I was parked down the road, yeah. No, they weren't no higher rises there, like that, no. Have you ever done any kind of therapy? Yeah. It's helpful.

Yeah, man. To kind of, a lot has happened in my head. I've experienced a lot of scene a lot. So it's good to let out, to kind of like, work on, not judging myself, and really, strengthen that muscle in me, and like acceptance, and having, and then, and basically someone to

partner up to accept things, you know what I'm saying, and going, right, call this accept that, and seeing, seeing it is that something that I did as opposed to who I am. And knowing that I did that, that's not me. You know what I mean? I think it gave me the point of view. I fought with a point of view.

And it allowed me to kind of like grow and see things how they are and accept and believe. It's like we see believers, ugly words, it's someone's like it's that way in Clangol, I believe you, that is that. And then you have to call in the, the conflict comes from not believing, resisting in that acceptance. So I think it's helped me with that.

Have you done for it? I have How have you done for a few? I have. How have you done all different kinds? Mm-hmm. That's interesting. I remember the first time I did therapy, I didn't know how I felt about anything and I didn't know how to talk about it at all.

Like it was really difficult at first. Did you see that you're all as therapeutic, or catholic or what? How did you see it at a time and how did you see it now in that area? Yeah, your creation, your creation. I think it's always therapeutic. It always feels good, but it feels good

because there's nothing there, and then there's something there, and it's something you like that's cool. It's a great feeling, and when it goes from not good to good, it's a great feeling and when it goes from not good to good, it's a great feeling. Like that, the moment when it shifts from this kind of amorphous mediocre thing into something you really care about, that's a great feeling.

It's an addictive feeling. How is performing comedy different than performing drama? Or is it different? I'm really happy that I started out doing comedy because I think it's made me stronger dramatic at all because you know the importance of rhythm. is what I feel makes something funny and pockets and placement. And for me, I feel drama is less rigid. I see laughing is dancing. There's a tune that you can say that people won't even understand me. Like I've done it before when people don't understand the words and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That can trigger a laugh in someone.

Just treat the rhythm of the music. Through the rhythm. Because that's what I found. It's like you're signalling, this is funny. It doesn't even matter what the words are. That, and then it allows you to place what's being said in a different place within someone. Yeah. And I think when drama is having a bit less control, and I've never really fought

about this, I probably will have a much different answer when I leave and I come back, but I do think that I do, do rhythmic things in drama because there is certain pockets that you think, but I'm just less beholden to the result. It's also different. The feedback mechanism in comedy is immediate. People laugh where they don't. Where is in drama? Can you always know when it's landing?

You can feel if people were listening. If people were leaning in. It's like, Lief and Van just quote, they said to Chris Rocky, it was like, anyone can make an audience screen, but can you help make them quiet? I feel like in drama,

there's a thing that like, there's a, there's a, there's a kind of like, that you're kind of searching for. There's like an emptiness in the space that you are searching for when you are saying things. And it comes with like a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, that creates a vibe or something like that. There's a sound that I'm searching for that just happens. And it's not necessary to do with what people say.

Because when I'm saying everyone's at work that's watching what you do. They're focused on something else. So it's a sound that's away from that. It's an emptiness that there's a silence that's away from that. There's an emptiness, there's a silence that you're looking for that allows to know that you're in an interesting place that you can keep going. It sounds great. That sounds like a great place to be. Nice, very, so say as if when I did the cry and see it and get out, there was some place that we went to, me and Catherine

that meant that it was like, we're in here and people are too scared to move or... It's the equivalent of, like, someone's on the floor, they've dislocated their shoulder. Fuck. You want to help, but anything you do... Hazardate that, like, hesitation, help, but anything you do, hesitate that like, hesitation, not like, cautiousness is what's created, I think.

It's the only way I could describe it right now in this current room. It's a very palpable, alive space you're describing. There's a void in it, it's what it sounds like. There's space in it. That sounds great. It's like people move out the way. And I let the person just give them space. It's interesting because we will make the audience lean in, but anyone around there will lean out. You understand? And then they just create it more space for you than it allows it to grow out more. I think that's the voice,

like a voice that's collectively people just allowing it to grow. That I can sometimes feel when you're in those spaces in their moments. It sounds mystical. Yeah, it's mysterious. You're like, you can't... It's like, you can't be articulated. It's to be felt. It's like, you can't describe how you dance. You can't describe why you dance. There's things that are just out of the remit of vocabulary.

And I think we're so rigid in the sense that if you can't describe it, then it doesn't exist. It's crazy. Yeah. Essentially crazy, like, I mean, it's like, actually, there's this stuff that you're not supposed to. And I think my family is just being more like less, less, less Western than thinking. That's what I grew up in and stuff.

That's where it is. That's the, you actually accept that you know it's accept that, you know it's that. And you know it's real. You don't question it, you don't even interrogate it. It's just there. It doesn't not there to be able to keep you accept that. That's what, and that's what it was when I was doing improv, when I was doing dramatic,

I wanted people to be scared to talk. People watching this scare to cough. They're scared to disrupt that moment. Yeah. You mean? Yeah. There's a nervousness that dramatically. And I think comedy allows is a release.

Yeah, that while almost opposites what from what you're saying, because the comedy is comedy is an energy out and the drama is more of an energy in. Yeah, it's like, contain, contain. Yeah. Psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst, psst Ooh, ooh. I realize that I kind of create, I sometimes I'll create that space before the take to make it easier to come through, especially if you're in pressurized situations

where I have to hit it. On this one take, I'll create, I'll create that. I mean, before, let's say they were rolling and NNAC action, and I just won't do anything. If I'm leading the act's first thing, I won't do anything until I feel it. Then I'll go as opposed to using the scene to create it. I think that's what my experience has taught me.

It's just like, it's still going, I go when I say we go, and it goes when it hits, and it fills and then You're just in the space Because when everyone's silent and waiting that uncompabilit It creates it creates it itself creates itself and so then you're even yeah, it was just it's able to come to just way easier Yeah, that's when I might I've got one take left and you got to do it. You have to control the space. It's also patient sounds like such a key piece of the process of being comfortable waiting. It's audacity. That's another thing about it. So audacity is being silently audacious.

Yeah, it shows confidence. Yeah, it's God's will. Do you think of yourself as a spiritual person? Yeah, I do. One of them brought me up in the church, maybe read a Bible every night. I'd read Psalm and Proverbs. And I think ingesting that every night meant I knew things. Like I remember I would say certain things like school.

I'm like, where the fuck is that come from? I'm not supposed to be about that. And you're like, I think I believe ingesting to believe something and then, but I don't know what is, I thought it was you know what the word spiritual means. I can't lie, I kinda like, people say it, yeah. But I think I'm in a place where like, what does that even mean?

Like, I think I know what religious means. I don't believe I'm a religious, because I don't go church every Sunday or the, but spirit is kind of, what does it mean to you? I feel like it's, you feel connected to something larger than yourself. Yeah, I would say you? I feel like it's you feel connected to something larger than yourself. Yeah, I would say that. I would say that then if that's the, if that's the what's being said, I would say that there's, I would say that if I thought about my life

and my career, I wouldn't get here. And I feel like I'm being used. And things are coming through me. That is straight up spirituality right there. That's spiritual. I think, yeah, 100%. I think a lot of the things that have done have come to me and have come through me. I've not been premeditated. I think I come from a lot of faith.

What they say, the illusion is faith without God. And I feel that, yeah, I think I do think there's more than what people say make sense, does even make sense to me. That's what it is, is like what logically make sense. That doesn't really make sense in the stuff that I've seen and the stuff that's happened in my life and the stuff that has happened in other people's lives. And I do think that it's like, do you ever believe it like you are anyone in a senior think that it's like, do I'm a firm believer like you are anyone in a senior life is a reflection of you in some way, shape of form, whether you want to see it or not, because why does it stick?

And so yeah, in that regard, yeah, I do believe. What is spirituality means to you? A sense of connection, a sense of there's more that we're not doing this ourselves. There's a bigger thing going on, and where participants or vehicles for something larger. Yeah. I think most creative people can't help but feel it. It's like it comes, it's in the territory of what we do that we experience these things that rationally don't always make sense. Yet we watched these things

unfold in the same way that you told the story about when you were pointing and your friends couldn't see the thing that you were seeing and then you showed it to them by doing it. It's that same idea, the fact that you couldn't recognize something that other people can't see. I think that's a form of a spiritual practice. Yeah. I've not been gifted a level of sight in things. Yeah. Is it the nature of the story or is it the embodiment that gets into you beyond work? I don't think it's an embodied, it's the intention, so it's the nature of the story. The beyond work is what I interpret in my interpretation

that that would be like, right beyond like in your life. If we were looking at the story like, get out, right? I see when get out, it happened. What happened was it was I was an avatar of a lot of people's feelings that they never knew that they had. And so I would walk on the street

and black women would come and hug me and leave. Just leave, nothing to say. Hug me, someone will cry. I'm like, what the fuck is happening? And I think the strength of that narrative that Jordan built and the fact that I embodied it the fact that I embodied it meant that people were receiving me as that parable, as that ideal, as that concept. And then you are basically in the center of an idea, that nature that's been built around you, and because you embodied the nature that was around you, therefore everything is now projected upon you. You know what I mean? And that sort of energy. And being in different positions, because I do think the story and narratives is like

formation in the sports, being in different positions in the narratives, so you feel villainy like in a different sort of things, If you're like a supporting character in a different position, people then receive you different as a product of that embodiment, essentially. And the nature of the narrative and the art that you were as expressing, Jensana, and it's just something up with you. That litters in your life is one thing I've interpreted. How do you say success is different than you would have imagined it?

People see you less. People see you less. See you less, yeah. There's a different to success and recognition. Yeah. There are two different concepts. That's one thing I've realized. Success is like your part of a team, it's that, you're up, this is that, yeah, but people

want to be really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, have a people, you want to be really, I'm a success. If you are recognized, then a lot is projected upon you. A lot of people's insecurities and fears are there. You are then now, like someone to be projected upon, as opposed to a person.

Yeah. But what it does, it gives me more insight into them. And what I would say, you see how people saw you, because it's something shifted. You mean, and you see what they care about, you see, but you know that you're not being seen in that sense. One time, I was asking here, and then I went to a party after you for a party for Judas and Slough people every okay and it was the only time I've walked around with your school. That shit is powerful. That is a powerful object.

People are moved by it. I was like I'm holding something crazy. It's not even, it's hard to even describe, I was just like, I'm holding something, that people just, what the fuck? So much is like, in your youth disappear. Yeah. But you are now, you know what I mean?

And I think I lived out, because I've won it, and so people have their attitudes of it, but then I think that was the only time I really saw it clearly, because I had it in my hand. And it was like, whoa, like, and so success, for me, has made me have to confront things in myself, and like, come to stay safe, to be clear, and to keep creating, and have to let go of things to grow and still do what I do, because it's just an exasperator.

And it just turns a volume up to 11 in every department. And I had to learn the skill in facing things and being direct to my communications. I can't be as internal as I've been. That's no longer beneficial, you know what I'm saying? And yeah, so success is, it's a wild, and I don't even think I've kind of really gone into it and like really engaged with the spoils of it because it happened layer in my 20s. My 2728 and done that level but like it was, it's a lot to,

I've seen a lot. Yeah. And it's strange. It's odd. Yeah. It's odd, man. Yeah. Like it's something. It's odd. Yeah. It's odd, man. Yeah. Like it's a...

It doesn't feel natural. No. I know I wanted to be successful because I was like, what's the point of doing something? I was always like that since I was very beginning, but I just didn't. I didn't really think of all the sides of it, but I think that's what makes you go there. Because if you really thought about all the sides of it. But I think that's what makes you go there. Because if you really thought about all the sides of it, you probably wouldn't go there, getting sayin' and it just becomes a thing.

It's not necessary, anything better. It's just now this thing that you have to deal with all the sides of. But it means that there's a certain group of people that means that you're not as human as you once was. Because you now have that success therefore, that means that you're not as human as you once was because you now have that success there for your life is your problems aren't really real problems they're not gonna receive it like that

because of, you know what I mean? You have a different set of problems. Like when you're making something when you're young, sticks are low. Now when you make something, a lot of people can see it and now it's much more vulnerable position to be in because there's an expectation that wasn't there before. I've had to really strengthen my fearless muscle.

The most successful, of course. I've had to really be like an energy is way more exposed, way more vulnerable, way more and I've had to learn how to manage that. How did you meet Jordan? The zoo. Or Skype, or Skype, fucking the day. He'd watch Black Mirror, it's Black Mirror episode I did. It's nearly 12 years ago I did that.

And he saw that, and he was like, oh, this script. I'm sending it to oh, this script. I was saying it to you, you know. So he already had the script. Now he had a script, he sent it to the script and then I said it and I said, and I was at that time, I was reading the script today. I was just reading my favorite films because I was writing the kitchen.

I was learning how to write, I'm like self-taught like that. So I was just reading the script today and what I realized in that process, I learned what I liked and that was invaluable. So when this script came in, I wasn't acting, I stopped that until like a year and a half.

And then I, this script came in, I was like, that, what the fuck is that? A lot of people my team didn't understand, but it was, they were like, well, and I went to do it with that, brother, you know, you understand, you don't have work. I know you know. And he's like, yeah.

And he knew me, he knew me. Like, and NL's act. This is this is thing is a yep and then like and then That was first time I spoke to him and then Sicario came out so we could Sicario I was in LA came out and then I was just in LA. I was like it's wise for me to be here to see see what it comes and then the was just in a lane, I was like, it's wise for me to be here to see what it comes. And then the Gale audition was around that time, and I auditioned for it.

And the first time I met him in person. And he was just really supportive of me, and my ideas, like me, they believed in what I could do. Then I did the crying scene in the audition, another other scene, I think the scene by the lake. I think he was like, yep, good role in the room. But then I was kind of like, I've had that before, so I was like, I'm not gonna believe it,

because it's just like, it's just too heartbreaking. Like, to actually believe in it, and then it doesn't work out. It's not cool. Yeah. Then he met up with me again, and he spoke to me about his philosophy, and his ideas and how he saw cinema and film and, and then I kind of was like, I knew it was my first lead

role in a film. So I was like, asking questions about what you want, this is Daniel. But yeah, that's how we first met. What was it that spoke to you when you read the script? I felt that shit, man. I felt like it. I felt that shit, man. I felt like it. I felt like it, man. I was so angry, bro. I was so angry, you know, every stage of my life. And I think I stopped acting for you in a half. And I remember I knew I was like, anything I do next, I'm gonna go crazy. I got so much shit in me. Wow, and then like I was so full. And then it came

and I was like, wow, this is what I realized is not a lot of things allow you to give everything. And I was like, wow, this is the space for me to give everything. And it was so angry. and it was so angry and so concise and so articulate about its angle. And it was so, it was anger that is like I think that 85% of the film is repressed angle, which I think is so honest. In the straight-less nature of just having to like, you know, be polite to accommodate for others feelings when people are not accommodating for yours. And how that pressure cooker goes over the top. But usually is the real anchors that affect you later happen.

I felt that in the script. Allowing yourself to be betrayed. And but leaving in things that hurt you. I felt that and I felt the kind of like this shit is entertaining with it because for me if it's not entertaining with the point I don't think I'm here for that to just make things as a piece of visceral art. I enjoy things like that but I don't think I'm here for that. To just make things as a piece of visceral art. I enjoy things like that, but I don't think I'm here to make things like that.

I think there's loads of people that can do that. For me, it has to be digestible to people that don't understand cinema in a deep way. Because I'm not in communion, I'm not communicating with them. That's my friends. Okay, I use it back and they watch French films with my friends and then asked them what they think some of the fun and I would understand what they

like and what they don't. So that's how the script made me feel. How is acting in a movie different than acting in front of an audience? Acting in the film is quiet. You're like seducing the camera. You're like, what I choose to like come in, come to me. You can do that on stage, and there's elements you do that on stage, but the fundamental things, if you're at a certain level of fear, you have to be heard by the someone at the back,

so there's a level of projection that means you're going to. But also the contract's different. People are leaving their house, baying a ticket and they understand to see you in person and they are believing that you're not you. And like, not all the time, the sets always, there's a level of imagination that a theatre audience needs that they come with you on. While there's a level of, in film, there's a level of everything is real. This is the world and this is what's happening

and everything's actually happening. And when it's not there, like, otherwise I know that. But if someone then, if someone is like 24 and they're playing a baby, you know, why is it 24 you're playing a baby? You just accept it, right? That's the form and that's the style.

There's just a different contract. I think on stage you're the editor. There's a different contract. I think on stage you're the editor and so you're carrying the arc and you're managing the arc. That's a big point. I think that's a big point. Yeah, with the decisions that you've made with the director in the rehearsal period. Yeah. And whilst in film, I feel like what I do, I see acting is helping someone say something. And I'm giving you all these different ingredients and spires, and styles into the stew.

So when you go and make your stew, you're like, I like that one. And then you can pick what you want. That's your choice. Do you mean I'm not part of that process? Do you typically ask directors a lot of questions or no? When I don't understand something, if I feel something doesn't make the Nate sense,

I think a lot of times, a lot of the scenes have been written for the scene. And I'm firm believer like, what is the scene interrupting? This person's gonna do something. So this scene happens and it's gotta interrupt. So he's not coming into the scene to do the scene. So when I feel like that, I feel like I will ask 10 million questions scene happens and it's got interrupts. He's not coming into the scene to do the scene. You know what I mean? So when I feel like that, I feel like I

will ask 10 million questions because fundamentally, I'm like, this doesn't really make sense. It doesn't make sense. But if I believe in it, I'm not gonna ask questions. I just believe I trust. It's written well, cool, let's go. How important is it for you to believe the characters you're playing?

What believe what they say and believe it? It's important for me to To believe that they believe it. Yeah If I don't feel they believe it then I can't believe it And if they believe it you believe it because that's your yeah, it's like it's true to them and then you can find why it's true You know, it's like they believe even if it doesn't serve them. It's made me move away from good and bad Yeah, and go towards what serves you what doesn't yeah, and people believe in things that don't serve them Creating negative realities for them, but they all the time. Yeah, exactly all the time But they believe in it. Yeah, and then there's a conviction to it and I

I got to know if they believe it. Yeah, it's a the time. But they believe in it. And then there's a conviction to it. And I got to know if they believe in it. Yeah. It's a good self-limiting belief. Yeah. How often does your understanding of a character change over time? Like from the time you start a movie to the time you finish a movie, are you 100% that person before the first day shooting or does it evolve over the world? It does evolve. I go into different scenes. You 100% that person before the first day shooting or does it evolve over the day? It does evolve, like you go into different scenes

and you're there. Like remember there's one time I play someone and then you're walking in the scene and you're talking and you're like, oh this guy fucks a lot of girls. Just because the way he's, you can encourage me. The way I engaged with this woman and this,

I was like, oh, like, if you're like this and you're gonna indulge. Jansana, that wasn't something I thought about before, but it was in the scene, I was like, oh, and then it changed how then I engaged with everything else after that. It's really interesting. I mean, you could just find things,

go, oh shit, this is really, but you need the experience to reveal the character. You can't, it's not just something you've made by yourself. It's in me like, you find out, or I find out about myself with someone. Sometimes you need someone there to kind of reflect and go, oh shit, you're all you're that, oh, I do think that. I don't know what I felt like that about dramatic acting. Yeah. I think there's this, you know, before sunset, this film, Ethan Hawke, is in it. And the woman in the film is basically saying, they were asking like,

what's good? And then basically she was like, between us, it's what exists between connection essentially. I think that when I'm acting, it's like, if you're true and present, you find things more things. That's why I don't come in there with too much preconceived notions and thoughts, because it's going to reveal more to you if you have less in the door. It also makes sense that the character probably knows less about themselves. People don't study themselves. They just do what they do. And also, I have an awareness on him. He doesn't have the awareness.

So it'll be incorrect for me to play that when I've discovered. I'm just gonna action it. And I'm gonna use it in a slight look. And someone that has been exposed to a mind like that goes, uh oh, I know what that is. Just saying that sort of something like, widows, right?

Widows, I played them, I said to your murderer. And it's not that he's scary. That's not, I just didn't play it scary. I played it with a lot of love, but it's the fact that he's bored. And that's what makes it scary. Because then how many murders has he done? The fact that he's bored. And that's what makes it scary. Because then how many murders has he done? The fact that he's creative, he's made new ways.

How did you get there? It's the kind of the office nature of it. Makes it go, what the fuck? And then the man goes, but he's not aware that he's, he thinks that's really normal and that's what makes it even scary. Yeah. He thinks that's very normal.

Like this is what, what else would I do? You mean it's like, that mentality is what is like, whoa, you are down a street that not a lot of people touch. Yeah. You know what I mean? and that, not necessarily, ah! What they say is a hitch-cuffing.

It's not the, the terror is not in the bangers and the anticipation of it. Yeah, it's the bomb that's hidden under the table that the audience knows about and the characters don't. Yeah. And you mean, and it's just about knowing that something could happen, but not knowing what, and it's about that, just knowing.

The, what I played with, he wasn't aware that he doesn't think, he doesn't think it's bad, that's more scary. Yeah. He thinks he's doing the right thing, and it's like, how do you get to that belief? I got him. Whatever, cool. And then just carry on reading a book off.

That is the fact that it doesn't affect you, means that what have you seen as a kid? That was a fictitious character, yes. Do you look for real world references not even necessarily like that? Like do you see someone who has a certain mannerism and think, oh, I could use that mannerism in this character? Yeah, yeah, I think, in Windows, I'm not saying what he's done,

like a lot of it was like, in one scene, was Benny Siegel. And I saw this video, Benny Siegel, when I was young, I was 16 and he popped the mind of him. Pety Crack was rapping. And then Benny Siegel was just listening to him. But how close he was listening to him, and he goes, that's odd. He didn't understand personal space in that moment.

And then me go, what's that? And I think I'll see certain things, I go, what's that? Majority of time, that's like a rare occasion. Majority of time is the people I've seen and people have been exposed to. And it's an energy that, like, just in real life, that I the people I've seen and the people I've been exposed to. And it's an energy that like, just in real life that I go, I've seen that energy and I know that energy.

And I want real life in the film. So, people that I've actually met or people that I've been around and people that I've seen and people that I've like spoken to because I think like the truth is way weirdo. Yeah. And it's the only way you can really get those. Like you say, people are so strange

that if you make it up, it won't be a strange is what they're really like. You be too limiting. Yeah. You really go, I do like, it's like this, and it's more of an attitude. Remember one time there was, I was in research for kitchen,

and then like this guy, he's been in the game, he's done a lot and then I asked him one time, I was like, yeah, sometimes when I see certain guys and you just know they're on stuff, you know they've done something and you know something crazy about that. But I said, what is that?

And how he articulated it was like, it's when they've done something they can never figure themselves for. He's like, it's like if they rub their ground. He means it's not like a, it's a done something that they like, that they had to do, they just can't face themselves.

So they just like, fuck it. Betzeroth, they've gone over the threshold. Yeah. I mean, it could be as minor or as big, they've violated something that they didn't want to violate. They've under like, it's that, what that builds and what that grows into someone, what that explores, what that matures.

Yeah. I find that interesting. Like certain decisions and what you've realized about your character. I want that essence in all characters I play and make. You said you were doing research. What does research look like for you? Conversations. Listen to conversations. Reading, like dissertations, reading around. Actually, I go places and I'll sit in a place and I will research in the place. So I'll like rent a spot and I'll be in the environment

and I would read and I'm in it and I could just go out in the day, come back in like four, five, six, have my food and then just in it. And it's not, it's always about like being in the space. And you just pick up like subtle cues of what it's like. You get nuances and little, it's the new one. It's the details that make people believe for me.

It's just like you see the people that you wanna know, you want to articulate the things that people don't even know about themselves, that they can't, they're not able to say, they don't even know they have it. That's what you're looking for. And that's what's real. And having something, and not knowing you have something

makes the character full of. You mean? And that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for like those little nuance stories, how they behave around certain kind of people, how they, or the light, where do they play? What do they love? Who do they love? No matter what they've done, and what the light, where do they play, what do they love, who do they love?

No matter what they've done and what the count, who do they love and where's the lovin'ness and whatever they do, where's the lovin'ness? And I think once I find that, then it becomes intimate. It's like certain scenes you're like, oh well, this comes voyeuristic. I was gonna say, are we just all hungry for intimacy? So that's why it feels so good, would you see a great intimate performance?

I think intimacy is very satisfying. And an evolution in intimacy as well. I think it's very satisfying. From what I know right now, like I'm open. But like, I think, yeah, I would agree with that. I think that is honesty is intimate. I wanna say it's like truth is what happened. Honesty is how you feel about what happened.

That's what I've learned how to be more honest. Yeah. Just saying this is so feelable. So honesty doesn't have right or wrong associated with it because it's how you feel. All it is is how you feel. Yeah, but you're saying both sides of it. Yeah.

You're talking about the bit when you was the victim and the bit that you weren't the victim. Yeah. You're being honest. Yeah. Like, you're saying this, like, you're being foot, like you're going, oh, and that person is, oh man, this person is, is vulnerable.

And it allows intimacy to grow. And I feel like sometimes when, I find that in audience, when audience is laugh, it's not funny, these people recognize the honesty. It's a recognition of like, oh, I feel like that too. I never say that. Can you be more honest or vulnerable in a performance

than you can in real life? Is that possible? Yeah. Yeah? Of course. Yes. I just, that's fascinating. Yeah.

I can say the contract is pretent, so you can expose more of yourself because there's almost no in repercussions. But what happens is is that then there has to be a point where you actually do that for yourself though and not just do that for money. I'll do that for career trajectory or do that for like validation. You do it just because you want to do it and because it's the true thing to do in it. And now you know how to do it. Like now you're a professional at doing that. Do you know what I'm saying?

It's like that's an incredible skill set to be good at. And the fact that it's not required for you to have done it in your life to be able to do it. It's a great gift to yourself to be able to now do it based on the skills that you've built outwardly. Yeah, but I think I didn't feel safe to you. Yeah. The forehand probably, in myself. Like I haven't acted since 2021 because I realized that I'm giving too much to these characters

and I'm like and actually it's actually now going to do the opposite effect. I'm going to be more withdrawn, more withdrawn if I don't actually just be real as myself. You not like for money, not for like career, not for like anything else. It's just like, yo, in private, in the dark. Yeah. Am I real? Are you real? In the dark? Yeah. To me, because then that always will come out. And it becomes easier as opposed to engineering it. Right out. And having like this is a safe space, because what happens is when you become more successful, you do it less.

Yeah. It should do acting every week. It's three times a week. I do it once or a few years now. Wow, that's interesting. You mean it's not like, so you don't have the, and do you miss it when you're not doing it?

I miss the old version of it. Because you're just doing it to play. You're just doing it to explore, you're just wondering, you're just... And there's no result to it, there's no point to it. Is there any version of it that you could do now that has no stakes just for fun that you could do just to get to do it? I could do, I could create a space, but I do feel like the space that was created then

was just, it was reflective of the time as well. And I feel like it was the time when I never was honest, and it was just a complete kind of like, I'm able to exercise all these emotions in this space. You know what I mean? And I was like a teenager. And I feel like I've grown as an artist that I think it'll be quite indulgent, that I wouldn't enjoy it. I think now I've got to a different place

and more transcendent places, when like I'm doing it for something bigger than me. Yeah. Doing it to serve something. Yes. I do the serve a piece to serve, and I did the serve. And I think that getting to that place is just more enriching and rewarding, genuinely, than just exploring and playing and doing it.

It's just a different, you just moved. I understand. It's like going back to your old school, it's just small now. Yeah. It's just that there's a feeling that I'd ask some, if I created that environment, I would have to create the time, because the time was as important as me. And the space. Thank you.

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