THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.173 - MARIAN KEYES

Episode Date: April 17, 2022

Adam talks with best selling Irish author and podcaster Marian Keyes about being profiled by Alan Yentob, depression, the fun of working in restaurants in 1980s London, sex and the challenges of having a good relationship with an ex partner.This conversation was recorded face to face in London on March 11th, 2022.Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for his work on this episode.Podcast artwork by Helen GreenRELATED LINKSNOW YOU'RE ASKING PODCAST (WITH TARA FLYNN)  - 2022 (BBC SOUNDS)IMAGINE - MARIAN KEYES: MY (NOT SO) PERFECT LIFE - 2022 (BBC IPLAYER)MARIAN KEYES ON DESERT ISLAND DISCS - 2017 (BBC WEBSITE)BEST STOP PODCASTING YOURSELF EPISODES (PODYSSEY.FM)PEEL ACRES (BBC SOUNDS)JOHN PEEL AND JFK (JOHN PEEL WIKI) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how are you doing, podcats? Adam Buxton here.

Good to be back with you again after the winter break. And I am reporting to you from a farm track in Norfolk, UK, on a beautiful afternoon. Easter weekend, 2022. The sun is shining, the fields are looking lush, the fields are looking lush green my best dog friend Rosie is up ahead bouncing she's just been chasing after a deer but maybe I can get her to come and say hi Rosie come here come on oh she's loping come on Jennifer Lopez hey how you doing? Hello. Oh man, you're out of breath. Been having a good old chase of those deer, right? Yeah, chased a it get away yes i saw that very nice of you now rosie earlier on my brother uncle dave who is staying with us this weekend

said that he tried to go for a walk with you and you've been walking for about five minutes you seemed happy and then you suddenly just stopped and refused to go any further and he had to return to the house what's that all about he's talking about computers and operating systems and i just found it a bit annoying so i went back right okay well he's back at the house now probably talking about operating systems with my wife i can't believe you're still doing that my wife thing doesn't she find that a bit offensive why can't you just use her name like a normal person? Well, because it's a sort of a podcast catchphrase, I suppose.

Anyway, I think she prefers a bit of anonymity. You know what I mean? Yeah, but you have said her name before on other episodes. So what's the big deal? Just say her name. Uncle Dave is chatting with Sam. Keep my wife, my wife's name, out your furry mouth. Ah, yes, Will Smith at the Oscars. Finger on the pulse.

Have you got something funny about Ukraine? Keep my wife, my wife's name, out your furry mouth. Didn't think so. Right, I'm off to do some gambling. Bye. Yes, you do that. When I've calmed down, I will tell the podcats a bit about episode 173, which features a rambling conversation with the writer Marion Keys. Keys facts!

Marion was born in Limerick in Southern Ireland and grew up in Cork. She earned a law degree at University College Dublin before moving to London in the mid-1980s. This is a very brief overview of Marion's life. By the mid-90s, Marion was facing up to her alcohol addiction and a bout of clinical depression that had led to a suicide attempt. She received treatment back in Ireland in 1995, and thereafter embarked not only on her journey of recovery, but also on her journey as a phenomenally successful and well-loved author. Double journeys.

Marion had submitted a short story to a publisher before entering rehab, and after getting a positive response, she wrote her first novel, Watermelon, which was published that same year, 1995. Like many of the novels that followed, Watermelon focused on one of the members of the fictional Walsh family and combined a frequently funny storytelling style and great characters with unflinching takes on painful subjects. Over the years, Marion's characters have experienced challenges that include addiction, mental illness and domestic violence. In her 2012 novel, The Mystery of Mercy Close, Marion wrote about the character of Helen Walsh, struggling with depression. The book was written at a time when Marion herself, though still clean and sober, was going through another period of suicidal depression that descended out of nowhere in 2010 and lifted just as mysteriously four years later. Despite these kinds of personal challenges and some of the painful themes in Marion's books,

she is, in person, like many of her characters, great company, immediately warm, friendly and generous. And it was great to get to spend a couple of hours with her in the offices of her publisher in London back in March of this year, 2022. We talked about what it was like to be profiled by legendary arts presenter Alan Yentob. We talked about the good times that we both had working in restaurants in the West

End of London towards the end of the 1980s. And, inspired by the Agony Aunt podcast Now You're Asking that Marion hosts with Irish actor and writer Tara Flynn, we talked about sex, or at least writing about sex, and love, and the meaning of life, kind of, trying not to get too Instagrammy in the process. In the weeks before I met Marion, I'd been listening to the audio version of her latest book, Again Rachel, the sequel to her 1998 bestseller Rachel's Holiday. And just before I arrived at her publisher's offices on my pink Brompton, I had got to a particularly emotional section about halfway through the book. So the conversation started kind of heavy, or at least heavier, and then lightened up. And I should say as well, a quick warning before we start.

I don't think that what we talked about at the beginning will spoil your experience of reading again, Rachel. But if you are worried about that kind of thing, spoilers I mean, you can skip forward about six minutes from this point. And there will be, as far as I'm aware, no further possible spoilers. Back at the end for a bit more waffle. But right now with Marion Keys, here we go. Yes, I'm sort of jangly, and maybe this is a bit unprofessional to admit, but I was listening to the passage in, again, Rachel, where you're talking about Rachel losing her baby. So I'm kind of raw.

I'm so sorry. No, no, no. It's not something that's happened to me. Thank God. Oh, thank God, yeah. I was going to ask if it was something that had happened to you. It isn't. You know, I mean, obviously a lot of my work is, you know, channeled through me. And, you know, like Rachel's an addict and I'm an addict.

You know, like we have that in common. But I didn't lose a baby. And the storyline came to me out of nowhere. And I always feel uncomfortable with telling somebody else's trauma. Yeah, yeah. So I did a lot of research on it. And I spoke to somebody who had lived through it. And even so, I was worried about what the response would be.

And especially because the world has become more and more aware of appropriation of other people's stories yes but mercifully I mean a lot of people have got in touch with me women mostly since the book came out and that had had that sort of loss and they said that I didn't over dramatizeramatize it, which I'm immensely grateful for. I think people, you know, just these women felt that somebody using the worst loss of their life as a plot point or as melodrama or fake emotion, that that would have really offended them. emotion that that would have really offended them. And I mean, I suppose so much trauma is low key, like really horrible, but it's not high drama. So that's a very long answer. But no, I suppose the closest loss that I have to Rachel's is that I wanted children and didn't have them. to Rachel's is that I wanted children and didn't have them.

And, I mean, that's a different sort of loss, I suppose, but it leaves that same, I don't know, that same... Sort of yearning. Yeah, and kind of your life is sort of stalked by ghost children. And I imagine possibly affected very deeply by other people's stories about their own children and maybe those those losses yes yeah i mean i'm at the stage now where like there's very little pain left you know there's an awful lot of acceptance and just the odd time you know when somebody has a new baby the feeling comes yes of kind like, it's a visceral thing. I can feel it now in my hands.

You know, I just want to take it, not steal it, but squeeze it and have it. Sure, not steal someone's baby. Yeah, exactly. Like, no, thank God I never got that bad. Yeah, I wasn't kind of lurking outside post offices and watching people leaving their prams. I'm joking because people don't do that anymore. offices and watching people leaving their prams. I'm joking because people don't do that anymore. And I have lots of nieces and nephews that I insert myself very aggressively in their lives and insist that we have a great relationship and that we spend time together.

Yeah. I apologize. I sort of immediately asked you a very heavy question about one of the heaviest aspects of your book. But it's sort of what you do so brilliantly is, you know, I tend to avoid things if I know they're going to be dealing with those kinds of subjects, because I'm a bit of a coward. And I tend to feel that real life is painful enough without exploring, you know, fictional pain or whatever. But one of your talents is that you are able to write about these things in a way that's quite gentle while not shying away from the reality of it. But it doesn't make me reach for the off button kind of thing. Thank you. I mean, I agree with you. I find real life, especially at the moment, I mean, just far too sharp and pointy. And there's, you know, so much human misery available in all media. And yeah, there's an awful lot of books I won't read if there are certain

subjects coming. But I suppose I also feel that to tell a good story, you've got to have the darkness as well as the light. And I insist on being hopeful. And I mean, maybe that comes from my own experience that like, you can go through things that you always thought happened to other people. And that they are survivable, better than survivable, you know, that you can kind of reemerge into pockets of hope or happiness. My favorite saying is, what doesn't kill you makes you weaker. Because it does. It kind of, it shows us, oh my God, the worst can happen. And look how sensitized I am to pain now.

An awful thing is an awful thing, is what I'm trying to say. That's all it has to be. If you've survived'm trying to say. That's all it has to be. If you've survived it, hooray. That's all you have to do. Survive it. Yeah. You survived,

this is a good segue, you survived an encounter with Alan Yentob. I did. In the BBC Imagine documentary. How was that? Well, I mean, the whole thing is, I am so honoured.

Still kind of baffled. You know, I think I'm probably the first popular fiction author that they've done. And he was very kind about my work. It was a good programme. It was, you know what, it was a lovely program. And I didn't understand the vision of the director initially, because it felt to me like it was very focused on one part of my life, which is my addiction. But I can see now that everything, she brought everything together in a way that had a very kind of distinct narrative arc and was very truthful and beautiful.

It was. It was lovely. It was lyrical. I'm going to say lyrical. Lyrical. Lyrical, Adam. Okay. Yeah. And then like having my mother and my sister in it was just really nice. Your mum's nice. She's fantastic, isn't she? The way she was laughing, there was a bit where your sister was talking about how when you were young, you used to share a bed and you would collapse through the mattress and your pa would have to kind of extract you. Come and hoist it up.

Yeah. And the way your ma was laughing was very entertaining. I'd never seen anyone laughing like that. She is just an amazing woman. She's very cheeky. She is just an amazing woman. She's very cheeky. You know, there's a word bold in Ireland, which doesn't really have a translation here in the UK, but it means very naughty, very naughty and cheek's a kind of a sly sense of humor. And because she's this tiny little Catholic Irish mammy, people think that she thinks nothing but kind of pure thoughts. And she's not.

She loves the crack. She loves a laugh. She loves people being subversive. And I feel so lucky that she's my mother. You know, there's a rebel in her that there was nowhere, there was no outlet for her at the time. You know, she had to stop work when she got married. Right. And she's a very creative woman. She's very witty, good with words, very interested in stories.

moment she's very witty good with words very interested in stories she's just she's charismatic i suppose which is not the kind of word you'd use about because on the other hand she is very in public she's pretty careful you know irish mammies are not allowed to express opinions that that aren't in line with the dogma you know that aren't in line with the dogma, you know, that aren't in line with the orthodoxy. But if she had been born in a different time, she would have soared. But she must take tremendous pleasure in seeing your career blossom. Oh, it's complicated, though. I'm sure it's complicated.

But in a way, you could easily characterize it as a sort of a collaboration. Yeah. I mean, obviously. That's a beautiful thing to say, yeah. Obviously, no, you, if it wasn't for her, and just hearing you talk about her and the way she sees the world, that's very much in your writing. Yeah. I mean, I learned to be a storyteller by being her daughter and the home she created. Story was really important. It was how we entertained each other. And it was what drew people to her and to the house. And you had to be good at it. You know, you had to,

And you had to be good at it. You know, you had to, you know, I have four siblings. We're all big characters. You know, you had to carve your space at that kitchen table by being the funniest or the most interesting or having the most outlandish event. Yeah, it was like, you know, one of those writer's rooms, you know, where like you have to be really, really, really good to have your line inserted in the piece. It was kind of like that. But when you grow up with that, like you have no idea that's what you're doing. But definitely she taught me narrative and she's a natural comedian.

She understands how to set up a punchline. Wow, that's great. And it's funny, you're the first person that I've articulated it with like this. I mean, thank you. Oh, wow. Seriously. I heard you talking about her on Desert Island Discs a little bit as well, though.

But this is different. I mean, calling it a collaboration is correct. It struck me, though, watching her, I just thought, she's funny, because when your sister was telling the story on this documentary, her face was all kind of inscrutable, but it was like she was trying to stop herself. Her mouth was twitching away and she was chuckling internally.

It was very entertaining. Yeah. Are you all right for water and everything? Great. I have tons here. I have an entire gallon. Now, I'm going to take a sip of water. So will I. People pleaser. What I mirror people's actions.

You talk about your people pleasing tendencies. I heard you. I think, I think, I mean, I relate to a lot of the things you talk about. Do you? Oh yeah. But I mean, you know, I was going to ask you if people often just get very emotional when they meet you. I would imagine that they've experienced so many strong feelings reading your books and had such a kind of personal experience that when they meet you, they maybe come apart and want to give you a hug and do all that sort of stuff? That must be heavy. It's very rarely heavy. I mean, there is hugs.

Yeah, definitely. There are very few people who sort of arrive in crisis or in bits you know um a lot of people say that they've got sober as a result of reading rachel's holiday or listening to me it's mostly happy stuff well i mean what breaks my heart is people who contact me and say i can't stop drinking you know right they're in they're still in yeah what what can i do and i mean I can only tell them what I've done, which is, I mean, I went to rehab, but, you know, 12-step work is how it is for me. And if they say I've tried that, what else can I do?

I can't offer anything else because I'm not an expert. All I can ever offer is my own experience. But mostly it's very, it's a fun thing when I meet readers. You know, because I know this probably sounds incredibly trite and maybe even insincere, but I feel like my readers are my friends and I'm their friend. And I may not have met them all in person yet, but that kind of, that we share it which is kind of because I felt so alone and so kind of uniquely fucked up am I allowed to swear of course thank

you um and by writing about those feelings I've actually discovered great connection I mean that's been the greatest gift that being published has given me, that feeling that I am not weirdly, uniquely defective, that there's an awful lot of us out there. You talked about, in the Yentub documentary, you said something about depression, which struck a chord. And you felt that your experience of depression, which was about four years worth, 20... 2010, for about four years, yeah.

And when it had subsided, you felt that you kind of got a peak in that period when you were depressed at how utterly alone every human being is. Yeah. And that insight that suddenly dawned on you for no discernible reason kind of shredded you for that period. Yes. And then went away again. I mean, it's still a thing that you're sort of intellectually aware of, I guess, but you're not in it. I'm not in the feelings.

You're not gripped by it. Yeah, I'm not feeling it, that kind of feeling of utter desolation. Yeah. Complete disconnection. And I felt I didn't love anyone. That's a horrible feeling. And nobody loved me. I felt, you know, I didn't feel numb because I felt very afraid. But I realized one of the things that's really important to me is that I love a lot of people. And I get very excited when I meet new people and think, oh, I really like them. You know, that kind of sense of connection is, I had no idea because I used to regard myself as a very kind of cynical, you know, lip curly up kind of, oh God, I can't bear that person or that person. I mean, that's what I was like when I was drinking.

And then I got sober and then I've sort of fallen in love with the world and people left, right and center. And then I got sober and then I've sort of fallen in love with the world and people left, right and center. And for that to suddenly stop left me feeling floating in endless space. And now I'm back to where I love everyone again. Well, not everyone, you know, but I can know a lot of people, you know, and I am funny. One of the happiest times of my life was kind of the summer of 2014 after I sort of emerged to the surface with the pop. And I remember I met loads of lovely women around then. And I made loads of new friends, which was, you know, also you get to a certain point in your life. You think, I'm sorry, my friend list is full.

I'm sorry, there is no waiting list for the waiting list even. You know, I'm sorry, please go away and, you know, find other friends. But suddenly I was like, friends, come on, more of them, lots of them, come over to my house. And it was just, it was lovely to feel alive and loving again. Yeah. But then there's the practical. Are you good, though, at maintaining those friendships? I'm not great, to be quite honest, because, yeah, I mean, I love them in my heart. But I am. I mean, I have often said this, you know, the happiest times of my life are late on a Saturday afternoon when I get a text saying tonight's off. a text saying, tonight's off. Because, you know,

because it was, oh great, great, great, great, right, I don't have to, I don't have to go and be dazzling and charming and all of that. I can just lie on the couch and watch endless telly and eat like a wild animal with my hands. But I do, I suppose, I mean, people kind of

complain about social media and everything, but it's a great way of maintaining those sort of, I don't know, those threads of love. And funny enough, now that we're out of, are we out of it? Are we allowed to say we're out of it, the pandemic? I'm saying we're out of it. Okay. Yeah, let's ignore the reports of the variant from the variant. Oh, God.

They're still saying it's not as bad as the previous variant. Okay, grand. So let's carry on. Yeah, but I've started making plans. You know, I have people coming over to my house next Friday and that sort of a thing. You know, so in my head, I have lots of friends now. In practice, I don't see them that often

but I still feel I could I was going to say ring them no one can ring anyone these days you can't no that's very offensive yeah it really is you have to submit a formal application

yes yes yes and arrange a time which has to go to like yeah but that has to go to a committee that gets kicked up upstairs. They will either approve it or not approve it. Isn't it hilarious? Unscheduled phone call is only for emergency purposes.

Yes, truly it is like. Just for bad news. Nowadays, if you do make the unscheduled call, you've got to say very quickly, hey, I'm just calling for a chat. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't like, otherwise, if it's just small talk. Because the person is waiting for the disaster. Exactly. It's like, and? Who's dead? So what's up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't like, otherwise, if it's just small talk. Because the person is waiting for the disaster. Exactly.

It's like, and? Who's dead? So, what's up? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because you sort of assume, hmm, okay, so there's no immediate emergency,

otherwise you would have said already. Yes, but there must be something coming. You're looking for money, aren't you? It's probably a favour. That's it, isn't it?

It's like, could you help me with this incredibly annoying thing? Yes. Or I've set up a charity and I'd like you to... Donate or such and such. I need you to do your juggling. Yeah.

That kind of thing. Thank you. So, after you left Ireland, having done a certain number of points allocated for each of your marks in your final exam, the leaving cert. And I got enough points to do law. Okay. So I did law. Did you imagine yourself as a kind of crusading? No, no, no. I mean, honestly, I couldn't imagine myself as anything. I can't insist enough how much I didn't think there was a future for me.

I thought I'd never get a job doing anything. And years later, somebody asked in one of those email things, what did I want to be when I grew up? And I said, happy. And they're like, no, no, no, what job did you want? And I couldn't answer. There wasn't one so I did law because because I got the points sure I relate to that 100 percent yeah what did you do uh what

did I do well I did what you did which was get into catering catering yeah well no when I say catering I worked in restaurants okay I was a bartender. But you fed people. Yeah, you see, that's a very important job. Sure it is. Very important job. And you were what I guess I would now call a server in an effort to be politically correct. Oh, my God, do we not say waiters anymore? I don't know.

I mean, because server is gender neutral. Grand. Gotcha. Right. A server. So rather than saying waitress, but then you sort of think like, well, the human league sang about a waitress in a cocktail bar and they were nice, weren't they? Anyway, you were a server.

In a cocktail bar. In the video cafe. Yes. Do you know about it? I remember. You're too young. I'm 52. Okay.

I'm 58. Okay. So, but I was only a little bit behind you. So in 1986, when you were working in the video cafe, I was in my last year, I was in the sick form. And I was in London. And me and my pals were carousing and going to bars. Carousing. Gorgeous.

Love that word. And then only a year later, after I left school and had absolutely no clue what I was going to do and didn't have the grades to even go to university. So I had to sort of reset and try and make good on my parents investment in my education. I got a job as a bartender to, you know, get some money. And then spent the next five years working in bars around the West End of London, including a place called the Rock Island Diner. Did you ever remember that? Yes, yes, I do. To be honest, London in the 80s was just fantastic. It was pretty fun.

Wasn't it great? Like, genuinely, hand on heart, you talking about being a bartender for five years in the West End, the fun of it, like, sincerely. You know, the parties afterwards, the people you worked with i mean that was how it was for me and in no way would i consider like bartending to be a lesser job you know it's a tough job but it's a it's a lovely way to live for a long time i really loved it and as you say the amount of people that you came into

contact with that you would never otherwise have met. Because my education and my upbringing had been very straight in all sorts of ways, you know what I mean? And pretty much everyone I went to school with was like me, looked like me, had a similar background. And then suddenly I was in this environment with all these people from all over the world and straight and gay and different colors. And it was like, oh, this is fun. I agree. That's exactly how it was for me. And, you know, a lot of them were like actors or dancers.

A lot of them were dancers who, you know, were waiting for a job. And they were just these amazing looking people. They were all like beautiful and really stylish and fantastic. Yes, I'm so happy to hear you say that. And Richard E. Grant was around at the same sort of time. While you were at the Video Cafe, a few streets away, you were in Argyle Street. Yes, I was. And over in Covent Garden, Richard E. Grant was waiting tables.

Mother of God. Pre- Withna God. Pre- Withnail. Pre-Withnail. Well, maybe Withnail came out in 86. But just a few years before then, he was one of those people. Yeah. There were so many people like that.

And really interesting, these passionate people. And you'd go out drinking and you'd talk about the meaning of life. Definitely. It felt like, this is it. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt. And like you, you know, I came from a very kind of middle class, careful sort of a family, careful sort of a place. And my poor dad was so worried and just so desperate to get me on some sort of kind of respectable career path. And this was the total opposite.

And like, I lived in a squat on the 21st floor of a tower block on Hackney. And you were taking your life in your hands every time you got in the lift. How did you find the squat? My friend Connor worked or lived there. I don't know how he found it, but I came to London and stayed with him. And like we lived together for years. Eventually we had to start paying rent and made a veil. But it felt dazzling and colourful. God, it was wonderful. Yeah. What did you do at the video cafe?

What was the set up there? Were you on roller skates and stuff like that? No, no. It was pre-roller skates. Thanks be to Christ. Was that the place where they filmed people and then it would come up on the video screens? No. No.

USP was just that it had giant video screens. Playing music videos. Playing music. All the popular beat musicians. Yeah. Who do I remember? Yeah. It's Peter Gabriel, I remember.

Oh, yeah. Sledgehammer. Sledgehammer. And DeDe. Do you remember them? Yeah. You know, it was good stuff. You know, it was proper stuff. Yeah, for fears yeah i mean that was so up our alley me and my friend

joe cornish you know we ended up working together and doing tv yes yes yes but we were so into that i don't know why we didn't spend more time in the video cafe because that was exactly what we loved, you know. Yeah, that music. We were going to see movies a lot, I guess. Oh, did you? Yeah. We were just seeing everything that came out. But beginning to hang out in a lot more bars.

But I guess we were hanging out in people's houses more. Yeah. We'd just go back and, you know, we went to see Betty Blue. Right, yes. And that was in the smoke age, right? So half the cinema was smoking away. And it starts off with that full-on sex scene. Lord save us.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember everyone in the cinema just lit up a cigarette after the scene was finished. Yes, they were so kind of invested in it all. Yes. And then do you remember there was a scene where they did tequila slammers yeah yeah and we'd never seen that before so we went immediately to the offy and got some tequila and made some of your own spent the rest of the evening doing tequila slammers i'd forgotten about tequila slammers god be with the days yeah it was great

it was like it was proper, proper enjoying yourself stuff. But then looking back on it, obviously for you, that was a part of your life that ended with you facing up to your alcoholism. Yeah. Like it wasn't the tequila slammers that did it though. No. I mean, I was always, always on course. Okay. Like if it hadn't been alcohol it would have been something

else um at the time i didn't realize though because i just thought i was drinking for fun you know and like being reckless and young and and i didn't realize that i was self-medicating for a long time i didn't know what that phrase meant, but I was just so uncomfortable being me and never entirely sure how to be with other people. And when I drank, all of that went away. So I suppose because I lived like that, I was able to kind of I suppose because I lived like that, I was able to kind of disguise my problem drinking as party drinking or, you know, wild times drinking. And it was only when my life changed and I got a job in an office and I started paying rent. Right. You're no longer in that kind of hedonistic environment where… Where it's justifiable.

Yeah. It was sort of powered by booze and yes and for some people pills i remember some of the waitresses with micro dots of acid during shifts yeah and i was like oh my god the odd time i used to take speed which again i thought it was so thrilling but actually looking back it's a horrible drug i didn't really come by drugs that much right i suppose or maybe just alcohol was always my drug of choice, whatever. But yeah, drugs weren't really a part of my story. But that's not because of any virtuous reasons, just like nobody ever offered me them anyway. You know, I suppose we find what we find when we're an addict

and alcohol was mine. Drinking culture is so sort of elaborate and respectable. I was just going to say that, respectable, yes. You know, you sort of think, well, it can't be bad, can it? I mean, look at all the work that's gone into it. Yes. All the different flavours, the techniques for making it, all the cocktails, the beautiful bars, the polished surfaces.

Yes. It's all good, isn't it? It's like a bank in here. Yes, yeah, like the mirrors and the beautiful like a bank in here. Yes, yeah. Like the mirrors and the beautiful bottles all lined up. The mahogany.

A place with mahogany can only be respectable. Of course. A bastion, a bastion. And look at these handsome people serving me this booze and all the bow ties.

And so obliging. And yes, pleasant and yes sir, of course sir. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And then Tom Cruise to seal the deal. Did you ever go and see that movie? I did indeed. Yeah, we got taken to see that by our bar manager.

Oh my God, saying aspire to this lads. Saying we need a bit more flair behind the bar. Because TGI Fridays down the road was packed out the entire time. He was like, we need some more of that. We need to start spinning some bottles. That's so funny. Please. Did you really?

Yeah, yeah. This is like a motivational, like a work outing. Yeah. Yes, lads. And we tried. We came back and we started

throwing bottles around and I immediately, one slipped out of my hand and smashed into the mirror behind, smashed the mirror behind the bar. And then I would do things like, I didn't realize that when you spin the bottles,

you only are supposed to have a small amount of liquid in there. You can't spin a bottle that's full. Because? Because then you'll get an arc of liquid coming out from the pourer. And so I'd spray all the customers in happy hour with an arc of kind of strawberry liqueur trying to do my Tom Cruise thing it was disastrous gorgeous I love this oh my god they were the days yeah we had no idea and I you know my niece is very into the 80s and I was for a long while I was wondering why but now that we're talking about it, why wouldn't you be?

Because it was a time of, we had no idea how lucky we were. Yes. And I've said this so many times before on the podcast, talking about so many of the big issues that we're trying to deal with now in the world, social issues and kind of uh identity politics type conversations and things like that but those seemed so irrelevant in the 80s it really genuinely felt like those problems had been solved it was like you go to the movies and you saw a sort of utopian post-racial yeah world reflected back at you and obviously they weren't none of those things

solved they were all shoved down and not being dealt with. But I think we felt like, oh yeah, we're nice people. And we're enlightened. Yes, we're aware. We know our privilege. We didn't have that

word then, but yeah, you're right. And that we thought things were fixed. to the extent that people who were more overtly political were seen as kind of that's right milli tants yeah yeah kind of you know buzz records yeah like calm down son you know we're all trying to have a good time here do you mind yeah i completely agree and another thing, I mean, I didn't have any money, but it felt like there was an awful lot of money around in London. Yeah. Because, I don't know if this means anything.

I don't really understand myself what it meant, but the big bang had happened in the city. Yes. So, like, suddenly there was, like… Yuppies. Yes. Like, lots of people had lots of money. And even working as a server in the video cafe, like I got tipped an awful lot. Yeah.

You know, like people were flinging money around like snuff it awake, to use my mother's expression. You know, and it just felt great. I mean, I do remember the yuppies being... Oh yeah, we'd laugh at them like... Yeah, they were a figure... We'd contempt for them. Yes, yes, yes.'d laugh at them, like. Yeah, they were a figure. We'd contempt for them. Yes, yes, yes. They were ludicrous figures.

Yeah, they were ridiculous. And for younger listeners, yuppies, it was an acronym, Young Urban Professionals. And that got turned into yuppies. Yeah. They were the main ones in the 80s with the big shoulder pads. Yes. And they'd come from the office and...

Double-breasted jackets and... And they were in Wall Street. Yes, and had Filofaxes. Yeah, Filofaxes and then Blackberries later on. Blackberries, Crackberries. And they ate sushi. And the idea of like, oh, you eat raw fish.

What's wrong with you? Like you're over the top. Disgusting. And then, of course, finally you try sushi. It's like, oh my God, this is fabulous. Yes, I know. Yeah, I know. It's kind of an awful moment in everyone's life, isn't it? top and then of course finally try sushi salad oh my god this is fabulous yes i know yeah i know it's kind of an awful moment in everyone's life isn't it christ i see i see right i'm one of them now um but what changed then once you were in recovery what were i mean this is a big question but how were you able to get beyond that feeling of disconnect and of not

really belonging and needing a prop to make you feel less raw or diffident god let me see i mean i went to rehab for six weeks and it changed an awful lot in me and how I saw myself and how I saw the world. Yeah, I mean, it was that. It was what I learned from other recovering alcoholics, really. And combined with the fact that I had almost immediate good fortune with writing. And... What do you think it was that the publishers saw in the short stories you sent in initially? Because you have said that you find them embarrassing. Yeah, even though there's a

story that you described in the Yentob doc about an angel falling to earth and having the same sort of life that you had. Yeah. But it felt like, yeah, that's a good premise, you know, that most people wouldn't necessarily come up with. Why was it embarrassing? Oh, I mean, I think the premise is embarrassing. Although I suppose looking back, what I was trying to do was describe the life of a so-called post-feminist woman, because that's what we were described as back then. You know, the feminism, there was no need for it anymore.

The war was over, you know. This is early 90s. Yeah, it is, yeah. And like I was living this life where like that very much wasn't the case. I didn't get paid very much. The glass ceiling was real. Women were judged for having sex in a way that men weren't. Date rape didn't even have a name.

But it was certainly something that happened. Gender-based violence was just, it was just something, it was so prevalent, it was invisible almost. So I think what I was doing was, at the time, popular fiction for women was all about aspirational stuff, wish fulfillment stuff. It was about women called Samantha who would have sex on their boardroom table. Do you know, like, that they were fabulous and they had really expensive shoes and that they had enormous amounts of power and...

Had that film Working Girl come out at that point? It had, it had, it had, yeah. And I didn't even know I was doing it, but by writing about a woman like me, I was giving a voice harder for women. And then there was also this very weird thing about your attitude, one's attitude to men and relationships and long term relationships and marriage. And that we were told, oh, sex is great. Have sex with whoever you want. I mean, that's that's what you must do. You want a boyfriend? Oh, God, I wouldn't admit to that. That makes you a bit tragic.

You know what? You want to get married? Oh, God, I wouldn't admit to that. That makes you a bit tragic. What? You want to get married? Oh God, no. You know, you were told it was very shameful to want that sort of patriarchal thing. That sort of stability. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you want that sort of stability, it means that you're actually, you're just a chattel. You just want your dad to hand you over to another man.

Is that what you want? And I could think, well, no, but I'd kind of like someone to watch telly with in the evening, someone to be my best friend. So it was a time of enormous confusion. And we had no language to articulate it. You know, I see young women now, and they're all over it. They know everything. They have all the words to describe the lies of the patriarchy. And, you know, they're so great talking about, I didn't know any words, but I was trying to kind of describe that confusion and also to kind of put my hand up and say, these are the things I would like. And that voice, which was, or that story, which was so different from the wish fulfillment, boardroom table, Samantha, high heels thing. It resonated. It was timing. I was very lucky. There was luck and there was

timing. And there was also, which I didn't realize, was the way I write, which is conversational. It's, it's, it's accessible. And, you know, I really caveat this by saying what I do is not for everyone. I fully accept that. If it's not for anyone who's listening, it's grand. You don't have to tell me, I know. But for plenty of people, they're like,

oh my God, here's this woman and she's talking to us the way I would talk to my flatmates and the way they talk to me. And I get it. Because even at the time, women's magazines were very aspirational they were all about you know dress for the job you want to have not the one you have and

you can have it all you can have it all yeah and it was not the case and I detailed lives where you had maybe not fuck all but you had. You know, you were lowly in life. So it was timing. It was timing. And because I had no other way to write than the way I spoke, which is what I had learned from Mammy Keys, it was an incredible nexus of look and timing. And is that voice in your head in the way that you normally converse, was that what immediately came out? Or did you try sort of being more literary or like you thought

writers should be or something like that before? You see, what it is, is I'm a storyteller. Yes. I'm not a writer. I'm a storyteller. It's taken me a long time to understand that. I'm telling stories. And I mean, I've got better at the craft of writing in that, like, I probably couldn't have been much worse than when I started. But I told the story as if I was telling it to Suzanne, my flatmate, or Katrina, my sister, or, you know, so the first four chapters of what became my first book, Watermelon, were basically, it could have been transcribed from a conversation with me. And that's kind of how I got through the first several books,

by just first person, chatty, addressing the reader directly. Although you do have a facility with words, and you do have an ear for funny language, interesting language, memorable language. Thank you. And I'm interested to know what were the books that you read where you were particularly struck by use of language when you were growing up or at any point in your life? There's an Irish writer called Flann O'Brien, but a lot of people have read him. Do you know?

No, I don't. Oh my God, he's amazing. What would you start with? I mean, the third policeman is the masterpiece. At Swim Two Birds, he is just gorgeous, very witty, inventive. There are no rules. I mean, how witty, inventive. There are no rules. I mean, how he writes, it's kind of hard to describe because he's very Irish. And I mean, I think Irish people speak and probably write

according to the rhythms of an older language, because like English isn't our first language. And I mean, we all speak it. But most of us, I mean, we all had to learn Irish at school so like there's a there the sentence structures are very different to the way English is structured and I think it would seem illogical to English speakers but I mean hiberno English is what I would call it a lot of the metaphors are different more colorful and sort of playful it is more playful it's funny I was reading somebody in the last few days talking about you know the the relationship between Ukrainian and Russian and that you know Ukrainian is very similar to Russian,

but it is so different in that it is much more lyrical. It's much more inventive. It's more colourful. It's more joyful. And that's how I feel Irish people are with words, with English, with speaking English, writing English.

And Flann O'Brien really does that. I mean, another person I really loved is the most English person you could get, which is P.G. Woodhouse. Oh, yeah. You see, I love adjectives. I love adverbs. I really have that Irish thing of I use one word when 4,000 will do. You know, the more, the merrier.

I just think words are beautiful. And why not throw in three or four more if they're entertaining and lovely? I always notice it like when I fly back to Ireland after being somewhere else. Immediately, the men at the passport place, how they talk to me is so much more elaborate. You know, like recently I went back and it was so funny. There was nobody at the passport place and the man came here and out and says, oh God, you're here, are you? You know, and

like, it's something like you'd make up because we didn't know the plane had landed and they were all jumping in the boxes. He goes, right, so where are you back from? And, you know, and I told him and he goes, what were you doing over there? I said, working. He looks at my thing. He goes, oh, it's you, is it? Right. And then I said, do you want to see me COVID?

He goes, ah, no, go on, you have an honest face. You know, I'm like, you just wouldn't get that anywhere else. It's, there's a warmth and Irish people may not know, but they pride themselves.

We pride ourselves on exchanges being meaningful and entertaining. Even with like just a couple of sentences. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah You've got lots of pop culture references in your writing, and I've heard you talk about Toast of Tinseltown and things like that. What do you watch of an evening? What do you gravitate towards?

Are you a box set person? Well, I'm not a binger, funnily enough, even though I'm addicted to almost everything. I watch an awful lot of Scandinavian crime. Oh, do you? Yeah. I mean, still, you know, like Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Finnish. So, yeah, I watch Toast of Tinseltown.

I love him. I watch The Apprentice. Forgive me. I mean, because it feels incredibly cruel at this stage, just like laughing at the poor delusional children. I, what was I watching? Starstruck with Rose Mattafeo. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We don't get it in Ireland, so I've been watching it over here. But I tell you, at the moment, I'm in a Godfather. Oh, what, the movies? Yes. I saw both one and two this week, and everyone says... Is that the first time? Yeah, no, I'd seen one a long time ago, and I didn't remember much about it.

Who's that rare thing, the sequel that's an improvement on the original? That's what everyone said. And then everyone said don't watch number three. I'm going to watch it. I don't care. It's been reassessed actually. Yes, they've recut it or something. They call it Godfather Coda. So if we don't regard it as another

sequel but as an epilogue apparently or a coda, then I suppose maybe it'll kind of dampen our um expectations i suppose i go to see a fair few films i read an awful lot yeah one of the great things about being on twitter is that people recommend things to you yes um yeah that's one of the few things i yeah miss i'm not on social media anymore i mean it's like it's a sewer like it's the most awful awful thing But if you're careful and never express anything even remotely controversial, you might get away without a death threat on a daily basis. But yeah, TV, books, podcasts, fun things.

Well, you are part of the podcasting universe now. Good, I am. Yeah, it's so funny. For a long time, I made fun and said, I'm the only person in the world who doesn't have their own podcast. And I can't even say that anymore. I'm talking about the show you do with Tara Flynn. Yeah. Which is called Now You're Asking.

And you are kind of agony aunt. We are. Is that a phrase that it's still okay to use? I don't know. I believe it is. I haven't been scolded yet for using it. But you know the way sometimes something lovely just happens with almost no input from yourself.

The BBC came up with this proposal, the Tara and I, Be Agony Ants, and it's just lovely. I was very daunted beforehand because it's a difficult position to try to be entertaining while also taking another person's problem seriously. You know, because the last thing we wanted to do was use the problem as, you know, for cheap laughs. And because both Tara and I, well, I'm old, she's not as old as me, but we've lived a lot, you know, and we've made so, well, I have made so many mistakes that there's almost nothing that people can say to me that I can't go, Christ, I identify.

You know, which has been helpful. So, yeah, it's been lovely. You remind me of less filthy Joan and Jerrica. Have you ever heard Joan and Jerrica? No, no, no. Oh, my God. Okay. Joan and Jerika have you ever heard Joan and Jerika no no no oh my god okay Joan and Jerika yeah so this is

a comedy podcast Vicky Pepperdine or Pepperdine I'm never sure exactly how to pronounce her name I apologize and Julia Davis

and they play these agony aunts called Joan and Jerika oh my god I'm going to listen to it this very afternoon it's absolutely filthy are you okay with filthy

oh I'm grand with filth yeah I'm at my most comfortable I'm going to listen to it this very afternoon. It's absolutely filthy. Are you okay with filthy? I'm grand with filth. Yeah, I'm at my most comfortable, I'd say, with filth. I think it's the most filthy thing I've ever heard in my life. Okay, now I'm really intrigued. Okay. And is it language that's the filthy bit or what they're talking about? No, it's... Is it a sex show?

It's mainly about sex. The joke is, I don't want to ruin it by deconstructing it too much, but I think the deal is that they're sort of women of a certain age who embrace the patriarchy to the extent that they blame all the women who write in to them for their own problems. Oh, fantastic. Okay, grand. I have it.

Okay, lovely. And what they need to do to fix it. Oh, fantastic. Okay, grand. I have it. Okay, lovely. And what they need to do to fix it. Yes, yes. Hey, speaking of which, another great transition. I'm amazingly good at this. Sex. Yes.

Sex, sex, sex. How do you approach writing about sex? Because, I mean, it's not like you have long, detailed passages in your books, but it's there. And obviously, it's such a fundamental part of people's in your books but it's there and obviously it's such a fundamental part of people's lives especially in relationships you know that you that it's sort of weird when you don't acknowledge that but what's your take on it and how do you approach

it without feeling that you're revealing too much about yourself or that, I don't know, it's not normal or whatever? You know what I mean? Yeah. I think those probably are the anxieties that most people would have. Yeah. Talking about it or writing about it. Yeah. I mean, definitely there is that feeling that everybody will think it's me.

Mm-hmm. But I also like writing them, sex everybody will think it's me. But I also like writing them sex scenes if it's appropriate. I mean, and I write about bad sex as well. But I like writing about nice sex because I feel lots of things about it. I mean, I feel sex is very important. And people often feel that they're doing it wrong or that they're not doing it enough and that it stops after a certain point you know after a certain age and I don't think it stops not for everyone that it might stop for a long time and then it could start again I don't

think it's something that's easy when you're under an awful lot of pressure with a huge amount of demands on your time and energy, you know, for either men or women. Yeah, I suppose at the moment I'm at that stage where I like writing about a sexual renaissance for people in long-term relationships because I believe in them. You know, I think definitely there are times when it just doesn't happen, you know, or it's quick and unsatisfying. You know, if you have demands on your time and you're exhausted and you've got young kids and you're sleep deprived and, you know, and then you have other times where, like, it's gone on for too long, the dry patch. And both people are too mortified to kind of approach each other because that means acknowledging that this distance has grown between them. I mean, I just think it's a joyful, lovely thing. And... Well, it can make you feel so close to a person.

Yeah. And yet, if it's not right for whatever reason, it can make you feel so alone. Devastated. Yeah, yeah. It's so alone. So alone. Devastated. It's so alone. So alone. Utterly.

And I suppose I'm of the feeling that you need to work at things sometimes. Apart from, again, Rachel, my last two books have been about, you know, women in their 40s. The Break was about a woman whose husband needs six months off from the marriage. And her response is, before he goes, like she wants to have sex with him all the time. When for years previously she didn't. And, you know, she regrets that time when she could have had it any time with him. And I like writing about it because it's important. And I didn't even realize that that's what I was doing.

But looking back at my last three books when, you know, these are not women in their 20s and 30s any longer. And they're people who've been in long-term relationships. I mean, that interests me because I think it's people's reality. I mean, you haven't got to it yet, but there's a sex scene in this book that for actually me reading it, I did it here with Roy, the sound engineer.

And like, I was fucking mortified and dreading it that day, coming in on the tube, dreading it. And actually, he was such a nice man. He made it really okay. This is when you were doing the audio book yeah yeah um what was it because it was explicit it's explicit it's explicit but it's also very romantic yeah but is it the is it the actual words yeah because that's sometimes the thing isn't it when you're trying to talk to your partner about stuff like that it is the words that make

you cringe because you that doesn't seem to be the right way of saying anything sometimes if you use slang sometimes you can use a bit of slang that is repellent to the other person yeah and and that kind of freezes everything yeah or then if you get too kind of medical. Yeah. That can also kind of make people think. It's like being at the doctor's, yeah. Yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult. And I think the first thing we need to do is acknowledge it's difficult.

And anyone who even tries to talk about it deserves a round of applause because they're being courageous. And the older you get, of course, then it becomes entangled with anxiety about your body yeah your body exactly yes yeah yeah um again rachel a big part of it is about the idea of whether it's ever possible to have a good relationship with someone that was once very important to you is it possible to have a good relationship with someone that was once very important to you. Is it possible

to have a good relationship with your ex? I mean, it's so complicated for so many reasons, not least because it impinges on your partner, your current partner. Yeah. And how are they going to feel about it? And you write brilliantly about these very awkward, entertainingly awkward encounters between Rachel and Quinn, her current boyfriend and her ex-husband Luke and his new girlfriend who tries way too hard to be cool with Rachel. And I mean, I'm sure that there's other stuff

that's going to unfold in that relationship that I haven't got to yet. But is that something you have experience of as well? And have you come to any profound conclusions about whether you should have an ex in your life? Or is it just easier to say goodbye to them and that was just a part of your life that's over. I mean, I think it's entirely down to both people. Well, I mean, both people, their current partners. It depends on the kind of relationship. It depends on how you end it, you know?

Like if it's one of those gentle ones where you just ran out of road and thought, ah, sure, look it, we might as well just go our separate ways. I think it's probably a lot easier to stay in touch then. But if it's one where like one person suddenly changed their mind and left the other person reeling, that's probably going to be an awful lot harder. But I got a message from a woman in the last day or so who said that after 10 years she got back with her ex-husband you know that she had read again Rachel and you know that they had been with other people then

in the previous 10 yeah I mean anything is possible and then also nothing is possible yeah you know it's entirely up to and it's I think it's how hard you are but that's probably what you just said about the person getting back. That's probably terrifying for a lot of partners. Yeah. The possibility that that could happen. You know, it's like, well, you were with this person for such a long time and you invested so much emotional energy and real love in that relationship that it's probably still there somewhere. That's not necessarily true, though. No, you don't reckon?

No, I don't. I don't. I mean, like I've seen so many people where they've just, they just outgrew each other, you know, and sometimes they outgrew each other in a gentle way. And other times, like they, one of them made their position clear in a very cruel way. But yeah, there are lots of people and you're just, oh my God, yeah.

He used to be my boyfriend once. Well, grand. And you feel nothing. Like not even a residual, kind of maybe a tiny bit of, I hope he's okay. And when you find out what happens with Rachel and Luke, it kind of makes more sense.

It wasn't just an outgrowing. I leave it, you know, but no, I think there's no need to worry if you feel like, and also, I mean, Christ alive, we all only have today. And we only have the now. And anything could happen. You know, instead of kind of worrying about mythological people from the past. You know, anything could happen. Let's just be grateful for the love we have today, the people we have today, if that's of any use to anyone.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, that feels like probably a good place to wrap up, but that feels like one of the happy endings that you seem embarrassed by, one of the happy endings that you seem embarrassed by, like you feel as if to be a more sort of authentic writer, then you've got to make things grim. You've got to reflect back the grimness in life because that's truth.

And you can't have truth without bumming everybody out, which I really am conflicted by that idea. You know, it's like, OK, I get that. You don't want a sort of level of optimism that is false or in total denial of the truth of life and the unsatisfactory nature of getting old and dying with hopes unfulfilled and, you know, all these things that sometimes we see our parents going through at the end of their lives. You know, my dad was like that, sort of lying there fretting and feeling that things the possibility, the hope that things can be better, I think that's fair enough. And I feel like, actually, isn't that kind of what art should be doing? Especially as life is grim in so many obvious ways and the older you get, the more obvious it is.

You know what I mean? Yeah. in so many obvious ways. And the older you get, the more obvious it is. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I suppose I think in every life we have moments where it all comes together. At times where like the pain stops and something nice happens.

And that's your happy ending there. But like nothing is finite. You know, that's going to change. Life will always keep changing until the very last moment. And you know, there is no destination. Oh God, I'm writing this very Instagrammy. But yeah, whenever you land on those moments in life, jump on them and think, oh God, this is great. This is great. This is great. I know that things will change, but right now I am happy. I'm grateful. And, and I will take that

and it will sustain me because things are going to go to shit again because they always do. And then things will keep changing. Wait it out is kind of the piece of advice that I would ever give anybody. Wait it out. Things will get better again for a while, you know. So like appreciate those bits because it won't be like that forever. Wait it out is great advice, isn't it? And the way that Tony, your partner,

sat you down when you said to him, I don't think this is during your depression. Yes. Well, I felt suicidal every day for 18 months. And I had a plan because it comforted me because I knew if things got too unbearable, I could check out. I could just stop it. And there was one things got too unbearable, I could check out. I could just stop it.

And there was one day and it was just too, I couldn't. It was unendurable. So I went and I told him, you know, so long and thanks for all the fish. And do you know that reference? Douglas Adams. Yes, yeah, yeah. And, you know, because I love him and I wanted to thank him. and I didn't want him, I didn't want it to be a shock. And he said, OK, but could we go and watch, we'll watch an episode of Come Dine With Me first. Which would, for some people. tip you over the edge altogether. Yeah. And in that 25 minutes,

it was still painful, but I wasn't, it wasn't unendurable any longer. Yeah. He got me to wait it out in a very casual, calm, gentle way. I waited it out and I'm still here,

you know. So, wait it out. That's a good place to end. Thank you. I thought this was fantastic. Wait, this is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. I visit your website I see success yes success the way that you look at the

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Yes. Continue. Yes Continue Hey, welcome back, podcats That was Marion Keys I hope you enjoyed spending time in her company as much as i did which was a lot and i'm very grateful indeed to her and her team publishers her partner tony who i met that day um for helping the meeting happen it was really enjoyable it lifted my spirits meeting her and talking to her you can find links to various marion related bits and pieces in the description of this podcast including links to the alan yentob imagine documentary uh there's an appearance on desert

island discs what else in the links oh yes link to her podcast that she does with Tara Flynn. And other odds and sods. As well as links to a couple of podcasts. Other people's podcasts that I appeared on recently. And I will tell you about those in just a second. But how are you doing, podcats? I hope you're all right, despite the stresses and strains of the world.

I've been doing okay, recording a few conversations that will be appearing in the next few weeks, including a few musical performances that I'm excited to share with you and forthcoming eps. I've been gearing up to do a few more live shows, including the first new bug shows for a couple of years. First one is later this month at the BFI South Bank.

I've been recording some songs, actual songs. Well, they're sort of like songs that may one day actually see the light of day, although I don't know when. And I appeared on one or two podcasts. And though I can't vouch for the quality of my appearances, I can vouch for the quality of the podcasts in general. Long-time listeners will have heard me talk before about Stop Podcasting Yourself, in which Canadian

comedians Dave Schumacher and Graham Clark chat with other comedians and share amusing things that they've overheard or spotted out in the world. Overheards. Some of their guests appear regularly and are always great value. Particular favourites of mine that I've discovered through Stop Podcasting Yourself include Alicia Tobin, Dino Archie, he's got the best laugh, Bita Judaki, Charlie Demers, Sophie Buddle and Brent Butt. All these people who have cheered me up on many occasions over the last few years. I already knew about American comedian Paul F. Tompkins. He appears on a lot of podcasts. He's always good value whenever he pops up. One episode that might not make any best episode lists

is the one with British comedian Adam Buxton, who appeared on episode 724 in early 2022. I think Buxton was just a bit overwhelmed to be a guest on one of his favourite shows, recording remotely with Graham and Dave, who he had never met before in real life. So it was hard to be suddenly plunged in and difficult to relax. However, it was a great episode. My son vetted it. Said, yeah, you were fine, Dad.

You didn't disgrace yourself. He's a fan of the podcast too. So he said it was fine. So yeah, check it out. Maybe not my episode first. I would go with some other people's. Work your way towards my appearance. The other show that I was very excited to be invited to appear on

was Peel Acres, in which John Peel's son, the broadcaster Tom Ravenscroft, takes guests around his father's legendary record collection in the family house down in Suffolk. And gets them to pick out a few discoveries and play them and talk about them. and talk about them and that is a show that goes out on Radio 4 first and then appears as a podcast exclusive to BBC Sounds thereafter which means they're still able to have nice long clips of the music much longer than you would ordinarily hear on most podcasts unless the podcasters are just, you know, trying it on and hoping not to get busted by the algorithms. The thing is that it's so, I love podcasts about music. Song Exploder, I've mentioned before, and Soda Jerker on songwriting.

And I really like it when they get to play clips good long clips and I've always felt that fans playing bits of music that they love on a podcast especially if they're talking about it intelligently can only be a good thing for the artist and though I appreciate I've written this down and I'm saying it and though I appreciate that publishers and labels are trying to prevent artists being exploited by clamping down on the unpaid use of their music, I do think a lot of the time they just prevent people from discovering new stuff and appreciating it, which makes shows like Peel Acres all the more valuable,

in my opinion. If you haven't heard Peel Acres before, I very much enjoyed the episodes. Well, they're all good. I mean, they really are all fantastic. You just get to discover so much interesting stuff that you would never otherwise come across. Some quite well-known stuff.

Some extremely rare stuff. It's just a good random journey, you know. I liked the episode very much with London musician and polymath Nabiha Iqbal. And the episode with Fortet, a.k.a. Kieran Hebden. aka kieran hebden he's got like a next level off the scale encyclopedic appreciation of rare music and vinyl rarities so he was really in his element going through that collection i had a great day recording my episode with tom and his producers Becca and Kevin back in March of this year. It was a very lovely day, not unlike this one actually, a bit colder maybe. collection housed in a variety of rooms and barn spaces in and around the country cottage where tom ravenscroft's mother sheila still lives in fact one of the best bits of the day as far as i was concerned was sitting down to have lunch with sheila and tom and the crew amongst other things we talked about John Peel and parenthood, compared notes

and Sheila was telling me about how emotional John used to get when the children would go away when they went off to university and left home and how difficult he found it. That certainly struck a chord. I also mentioned to Tom that I'd read a story about when John Peel was living in Dallas in the early 60s and he saw John F. Kennedy passing in a motorcade during his presidential campaign in an open-top car. This was two, three years before he was assassinated in Dallas. Anyway, John Peel ran up to Kennedy, shook his hand, had a short chat, like made a sort of meaningful connection.

Kennedy said, oh, you're British. And John had a camera with him, took his picture. And for a long while, I think that Peel thought the pictures had been lost or thrown out by an ex-wife in a fit of pique. But Tom, when I mentioned this story, said, ah, no, they've been found. And he went and retrieved the tin full of transparencies that John Peel had taken when he lived in America, including these pictures of Kennedy. Excellent pictures.

Like, when I first heard the story, I imagined that he'd snapped a picture on a brownie camera or something like that, you know, and and they'd be all blurry and he wouldn't really be able to tell if it was Kennedy or not. But no, they're they're kind of photojournalist quality pictures, really beautiful pictures of Kennedy in his motorcade. It's quite strange and even stranger that you know they were taken by a young John Peel. And then the other weird part of the story is that a few years later, on the 22nd of November 1963, when Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, John Peel made his way into town and blagged his way into the arraignment of Lee Harvey Oswald, who'd been accused of shooting Kennedy, saying that he was a reporter from the Liverpool Echo.

Then, years later, watching a documentary about the assassination, Peel even spotted himself amongst the reporters in the TV footage from that day. And I've seen the frame grabs. I must say, I wouldn't have spotted him. But anyway, he swears that it was him and he spotted himself quite easily. Anyway, I put a link to the whole Peel and Kennedy anecdote told in Peel's words in the description of the podcast. But yes, Peel Acres.

It was good fun, even though, as I say on the podcast, I did feel quite badly underqualified, especially compared to the other guests that Tom has had on the show. I just didn't know where to start. You know, you don't get, you just turn up and start recording. So it's not as if I spent an hour or two looking through and making considered decisions about what we should listen to. It was literally like, oh, let's look at this and pulling stuff out at random and saying, yeah, I'll just give that a go. So the music choices that you hear on the show are pretty much the first things that I pulled out, some better than others. And afterwards, I was also a little worried that I'd probably got quite a few things wrong when I was talking about some of the music that we

were listening to and other bits and pieces. But overall, it was a good day and good to hang out with tom share our love of pixies stand up for ween the band and generally take a break from the outside world in that crazy overwhelming cathedral of music there okay that's enough that's enough. That's enough. Thanks very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support. Podcast artwork is by Helen Green. Thanks to ACAST and all who work there and help me keep the podcast running. And thanks most especially to you for coming back and listening. Until next time, we share the same outer space. Take great care.

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Give me a big smile and a thumbs up. Nice take a pat when my bum's up. Give me a big smile and a thumbs up. Bye. Thank you. you