THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.184 - LOUIS THEROUX

Episode Date: July 17, 2022

Adam talks with journalist and documentary presenter Louis Theroux about the challenges of writing honestly about family relationships with reference to his account of domestic life during lockdown and his mother Anne's book about the disintegration of her marriage to Paul Theroux.We also talk ice baths with Joe Wicks, confrontations with far right 'irony bros', and I do my best to make things uncomfortable when it comes to our podcast rivalry.This episode was recorded face to face in London on 16th March 2022Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support.Podcast artwork by Helen Green See Adam and Rosie welcome you to Adam's YouTube channelADAM'S WEBSITERELATED LINKSSUPPORT CHILDREN'S HOSPICES - (CHAT UK)LOUIS THEROUX'S FORBIDDEN AMERICA - EXTREME AND ONLINE - 2022 (BBC)LOUIS TAKES AN ICE BATH AT JOE WICKS' HOUSE - 2022 (METRO)ICE BATH BENEFITS by Sarah Lindberg - 2019 (HEALTHLINE)HOW LOUIS BECAME A TIK TOK SENSATION - 2022 (NEW YORK TIMES)THEROUX THE KEYHOLE by Louis Theroux (AUDIOBOOK) - 2021 (AUDIBLE)THE YEAR OF THE END: A MEMOIR OF MARRIAGE, TRUTH AND FICTION by Anne Theroux (AUDIOBOOK) - 2021 (AUDIBLE)90 MINUTE FILM FEST PODCASTADAM'S DAUGHTER ON 8 OUT OF 10 CATS DOES COUNTDOWN (YOUTUBE)ADAM'S DAUGHTER (AGED 5) DISCUSS PRINCESS LEIA'S SLAVE OUTFIT - 2014 (YOUTUBE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how are you doing, podcats? Adam Buxton here.

I'm reporting to you from a farm track in the east of England, Norfolk County. It is, what are we looking at, it's sort of mid July 2020 and it's a very nice evening. Breezy, sunny, although in the news today there is a warning about forthcoming extremely hot, dangerous weather this week, so we all have to deal with that, but right now I'm enjoying it. It's just right. My dog friend Rosie is bouncing on the track up ahead, and walking with me on my left is my daughter, Hope. Hello. I asked if she wanted to be part of the intro for this podcast and I thought it might be good because the podcast features a conversation with my old friend Louis Theroux and it's all quite what the Americans would call

inside baseball. We talk a great deal about families and writing about families in particular and some of the dangers of doing that. I'll explain a little more. I've got a written intro here, I hope, that I'm going to read, which I normally would. But actually, it occurs to me that in this episode, I talk about you. And I talk about the email that I sent you about these my my sport comments remember yes it was very hot about you now it was anyway I uh reveal in the podcast what your response was to it I can't remember what my response was but if you want to chip in at any point you're you're welcome if you want to comment on my intro pick me up ask me ask me questions, anything like that. Of course.

So here we go for a family podcast intro. Let me tell you about podcast number 184, which features a rambling conversation with my old friend, the British-American journalist, documentary presenter, and podcastercaster let's not forget louis theroux currently aged 52 so you know who louis is obviously i do know who louis is do your friends know who he is uh some of them i can't say they're all big into their british comedians i wouldn't call him a comedian he can be funny in fact he's funny, but that's not his main job. He thinks of himself as a journalist. I can't say my friends into British journalism.

Okay. This conversation with Louis was recorded face-to-face back in mid-March of this year, 2022. I always like to tell people what the year is in the podcast and i'm aware that it's a little bit pedantic perhaps but i always think that in future you know when people are coming to the archive of the podcasts fresh it might be useful for them to know that kind of thing what do you think i think it's always useful to have a date on the things. It's nice to look back and think about where things were at

when that date was happening. I agree. You're very clever. Thanks. Now, I'm just going to pause for a second until we get to the slightly less crunchy part of the track. That's all right. I mean, people like to hear crunching on a track. Sure, everyone does.

But this is, I would say, out of control. Okay, let's pick up this intro. So this conversation was recorded back in mid-March of this year in a cluttered office room in the North West London house where Louis lives with his wife Nancy and their three sons. We talked about the ice bath that Louis took earlier this year when he visited British fitness coach Joe Wicks, who rose to fame with his online workouts during the 2020 lockdown. I have included a link in the description of the podcast to a video of Louis in the ice bath, as well as another link with a bit more information about the benefits and possible dangers of immersing your body in

extremely cold water if you are considering giving it a go yourself. Louis and I also talked about his account of family life during the lockdown through the keyhole. And we talked about whether he was nervous about being so candid with the details of his relationships with his wife, his children, and with alcohol. That led us on to talking in general about the potential problems that come with writing about your own family, either in fictionalised form, as with his father Paul Theroux's novels, or in published diaries, as with Louis's mother, Anne.

Her book, The Year of the End, a memoir of marriage, truth and fiction, was published a few months before Louis' lockdown book in 2021. And it's a moving and absorbing account of the highs and lows of her relationship with Paul and the challenges of being married to a successful and celebrated writer. Mum will probably write a book like that at some point, won't she? Maybe. Dad joke for you there could tell so you don't listen to my podcast do you uh no not really that's good i think because i think it would probably be a bit weird don't you think because i talk talk about you guys. How do you feel about me talking about you?

I think it is okay. I mean, it's not like you're detailing everything that goes on in my daily life. Well, no, of course I'm not. You are 13 years old currently. Correct. I mean, this is a difficult question to answer, but do you think maybe you might regret one day being someone that pops up in my work whether it's uh recordings of you talking about Jabba the Hutt or you know just me talking about you in conversations with people on the podcast um I don't think so I mean maybe if it was things that I'd done wrong or maybe slightly embarrassing stories about me, but I have at the current moment, and I imagine so in the future,

no issues with being online at all. I think it's quite cool. Yeah. It's like a little account of me that I can go back and check out. Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm glad you feel that way, and I hope that continues to be the case. Do you ever get people talking about the Jabba the Hutt video? Not the Jabba the Hutt video.

It's that book video that you did for... Oh, yes. That was on 8 Out of 10 Capstas Countdown, isn't it? Right. That was a good one. A couple of my friends found the photo of me from that, and they loitered it over me for like a day. But then they moved on, so...

Okay. Not too traumatic. Not too traumatic, no. All right, this is turning into a long introduction, and it might be frustrating with some people tuning in just to get some Louis action, but I do think it's in keeping with the spirit of the conversation about, you know, folding real-life experiences of having a family into your work.

That's what I'm telling myself, anyway. Yes, wrapping up. And towards the end of our conversation, tried out a new edgier interviewing style with louis i was trying to wind him up and it got us into talking about some of the more uncomfortable encounters he had in his recent bbc series louis theroux's forbidden america in which during one program the first one i think, Louis spent some time with internet-savvy members of the far right. I read some reviews for the program at the time and some of them questioned the wisdom of further raising the profiles of people like that,

especially in such politically febrile times. And I asked Louis what he thought of the criticism. And he answered. And you have to listen to the conversation to find out what he said. We also returned briefly to our podcast rivalry. Do you ever listen to Louis' podcast? No.

No, good. That's fine. But the conversation got underway in a far more cosy style, with Louis finally admitting that, at least when it comes to writing autobiographical books, he would be nowhere if it wasn't for me and Ramble Book. OK, back at the end for a bit more waffle, but right now with Louis Theroux.

Here we go. Ramble chat, let's have a ramble chat. We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that. Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. Yes! La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la,

la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la this to you before, but your book, Double Plug, Action, Mutual Handjob, your book was sort of an inspiration for my book. In as much as when I read yours, I was like, wow, that's really went further in terms of stripping away his own layers and also opening up the window on his home life talking about just battles with the kids or things that you grapple with on the family front and I thought that's very um I want to say

brave but also funny and interesting I think brave is probably the best word brave always people say brave and you're like I always hear like foolish so I don't want to say brave but also funny and interesting i think brave is probably the best word brave always i'm because people say brave and you're like i always hear like foolish so i don't want to say brave that was brave i think it's very brave what i did uh but you know i thought it was it was great it was successful but it was creative and it was funny and that was you know what was so good about the book was how warm and revealing it was so thanks man my my inspiration for one of my jumping off points for this book was an attempt to to do that to actually own up to what a dick i am around my family you know i thought when i tell you my first reaction after i read it was like wow he went a

lot further than i did yeah did you see the published version? I mean, you should have seen it, you know, some of the early drawings. I saw the published version, yeah. I was surprised by how far you were. I thought, I don't think you needed to include some of this stuff. Yeah. I tried to not spare myself,

but slightly spare the family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kids and wife. I mean, there's a lot of me drinking in it. None of it which is made up there's moments where i'm more or less blackout drunk um and while you were writing were you worried about talking about that were you worried a that you might have a real problem with alcohol and b that if you didn't then that would be the narrative from then on um i look i think anyone

who drinks more than you're supposed to has moments of thinking oh i wonder if i've got a problem do you know what i mean like i didn't did i consistently think i've got a problem no but there were definitely times when i thought i wonder if this is getting in danger of getting away from me and Nancy would tell me yeah well Nancy was saying things to you like I don't know who you are who are you what's happened to you never used to do this you're pissed out of your head it's a Monday or what happened last night like uh and I'd be hung over and I'm like well I had a few drinks and she's like do you think you have a problem I'm like well I'm not really sure so I sort of saw it as a way of coping through lockdown and also most of the time I was quite enjoying it but then you describe a few days those days when you still

have young children where you have to spend the day together and it's a lot of work and they need a lot of attention you're having to get up early especially if you've been drinking till one in the morning yeah yeah and then you're on duty until you have to get up at 6 30 or 7 so your two boys were how old the two older ones were at the beginning 14 and 12 okay so they're sort of looking after the little guy was only five yeah yeah he's down there saying i want to watch watch something. Let's play a game. If you could get away drinking quite a bit, staying up late, to being a father. And it really took me a while to get used to that. So there were a few years when I would still more or less carry on. And my wife would take up the slack and be very kind and nice, probably nicer than she ought to have been about it.

And I'd appear for duty pretty much the worst for wear and just not being able to enjoy it and then feeling guilty like, what kind of dad am I? This is rubbish. Am I going to carry on being like this forever or am I going to adjust to this and be a bit more responsible? How much soul searching do you do in those moments? Well, Nancy, one of the great things about Nancy is she knows her own mind and she doesn't take a lot of shit, right? In other words, I mean, we're still very much sharing the burden. So I wasn't soul searching in terms of, oh, I wonder if I'm, you know, being a hands-on dad, oh I wonder if I'm you know being a hands on dad

like I wonder if I'm doing the job I did sometimes think I mean if you could do the job drunk which I think you can a lot of the time I don't know maybe that's controversial is it I'm going to say yes

you know like Friday Saturday night like I'm making the meal I'm putting the kids down like You know, like a Friday, Saturday night, like I'm making the meal, I'm putting the kids down, like the little guy reading him his story. You know, you think like, well, what would you have done if there was a medical emergency? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, would have called an Uber and taken them to the hospital.

So maybe this is me self-justifying, but it's clearly, what is it clearly? It clearly isn't ideal on health grounds. It's not so much that you feel like, it's a sort of feeling of loss of control. You know, the days become indistinguishable, sort of, you know, because it's nice to be able to remind yourself that you've got the power to say, you know what? Let's have an alcohol-free night, go to bed bed have a cup of tea and see how that feels i started at a certain point remembering how much better i would feel if i hadn't drunk anything the night before yeah and if you're able to sort of just have that tiny moment of thinking, well, shall I have another one?

Actually, I'll feel a bit better tomorrow morning if I don't or if I don't have anything at all. And actually, I found that quite powerful, certainly during the week. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. That's true for a lot of things. And I think that's almost like a self-help technique. You have to project yourself forward and say, how will i feel after lunch if i've not eaten everything in the buffet right you know what i mean and it's all sort of projections of regret isn't it yeah i think that's that's that's a positive way of moderating your behavior i should

say as well i think i made myself okay as well because i was exercising so much right you and joe wicks right so every day or at least six days a week i would be doing pretty vigorous 15 to 20 minute workouts drunk asizing kind of with a hangover asizing i don't think i ever drunk asized yeah it's got catchy written all over drunk size trick yourself in uh but i would hang over a size quite a lot. You know? Yeah, yeah. And then, so I felt pretty good. We'll come back to parenting, because there's more to be said, because I want to ask about your mum's book.

But let's just have a little detour, Joe Wick's detour. Yeah. You're working with him at the moment, right? Yeah. Did you see, by the way, you're off social media, aren't you? Yeah, no, someone, a friend was saying,

oh, did you see Louis and Joe Wick's having an icee wicks having a ice bath yes not at the same time so we're trying to promote this documentary that we've got coming up that's made through my company mindhouse but i'm not in it it's his family story he grew up in epsom and his dad had a serious heroin problem and his mum had her own mental health issues to do with OCD and, I think, an eating disorder. And so it's from squeaky clean, cuddly, lovely Joe Wicks. You know, you see him, he's got luxuriant hair, he looks beautiful, he's got muscles, he's got a wonderful family, he's got his beautiful house. You think, wow, I wonder what would happen

if a grey cloud darkened that idyllic existence. But in fact, he came from a family upbringing that was very challenging. And so he talked about it on Desert Island Discs. And as a result of doing his workouts myself, I got I'd got in touch with him. I was on his podcast. We struck up a little bit of a bromance. Only the DM on Twitter version. I go, oh, I did a really hard workout today joe it was this one and he'd be like oh well done you know he was sort of giving me encouragement and then that led to us

collaborating on this documentary so i went around to his place to promote to do some um viral content but while i was there he said do you want to do a nice bath i was okay and i have to get in trouble when i do an impression because it's not really like him in fact one of the things he did when I was around there he goes like when we were recording he goes like Louis does a really funny

impression of me go on Louis I was like no it's not really like you Joe's like oh yeah look at my barnet so having and he's like

yeah look at my barnet yeah it's really funny Louis and I'm like this is so weird like he's doing an impression of my bad impression of him

you know I'm talking like this. I don't know where it's come from. I don't know who is that person. It's sort of Frank Spencer on a helium balloon. Hello, Donna. Anyway, afterwards, he said, we went and did an ice bath, which I thought would be just like, oh, getting in a cold bath.

Which on one level it is, but it's freezing cold. It was actually clocked at one degree celsius is this an actual bath or has he got a cryo chamber it's a tin bath at the bottom of his garden which has water in it and he dumped loads of ice cubes in it and he got in it first and he said he said the key is you just got to get in and breathe make sure you breathe and when you come up exhale and you have this whole breathing technique well russell brand was down around here he did five minutes in there anyway i'm thinking i don't really want to get in there but i also want to be a mensch and he's doing me the favor of being in the dock and promoting the dock so i'll do it anyway i get in and it's almost like, I mean, not that I've had a cardiac arrest, but somewhat like you'd imagine that would be.

Where you come up and I'm like, I've been told I need to inhale, but I couldn't get my breath. I started hyperventilating and it's almost beyond just the temperature. You know, it's not just it's cold. It's like your body going into some kind of shock. Yeah, it's beginning to shut down. Yeah. And it was really odd. And I was quite alarmed.

And I couldn't really speak. And he's like, oh yeah, remember to keep breathing. How are you feeling? And I'm like. And then after like 10 or 15 seconds, I started to get my breath back. And then after a minute, I got out. I can never figure out what the deal is with that stuff. Because if people fall through the ice, right,

they're not going to last very long at all before they just pass out or everything shuts down. Well, if you fall through the ice, the problem is you're under the ice and you suffocate. But if you're in ice water, I don't know what i mean it's like the titanic yeah it could probably last an hour no i would have thought god i gotta google that how long could you it's wim hof apparently is the is the guru of it he was because joe was talking about wim hof in water that is around freezing point, a person is likely to survive only 15 to 45 minutes with flotation and possibly up to an hour or so with flotation and protective gear before the brain and heart stop.

So really half an hour. Yeah. Yeah, hypothermia, man. Ooh, that's scary. Forget about it. But I totally get the appeal of water shock. I think I got into that in lockdown. I went through about six months of having very cold showers,

only cold showers instead of actual baths and stuff. It's supposed to be good for you. It was pretty fun. I don't know why I got out of it. I just don't like it. No, it's not nice. Is that the point? Again, the, yeah, there was some sort of masochistic enjoyment of thinking.

I think maybe because so much of how I spend my time is to service my superficial needs and pleasures that I thought, well, this is pretty good. I'm grown up. Look at me. I'm having a very cold shower. Make monkey noises and do all that quite fun and then definitely would feel invigorated it's weird how you feel the urge one feels the urge to do the noises yeah it's very monkey it's really odd isn't it it's brutal and sometimes my thing was i would say say, this is nice, this is nice, this is nice, this is nice.

Do a sort of mantra chant. How long would you stay in there? Not longer than about a minute, I think. I didn't even get up to two minutes. On max cold or with a little warm in there? No, no, freezing, freezing. As cold as it was possible to get. And this was in the winter, so it was very cold.

Norfolk cold, Louis. Freezing cold. So that'se wicks so you're turning in in fact joe wicks i'm i as you know from reading the book yeah i have two epitaphs in the book and the first one is friedrich nietzsche and it is in times of peace the warlike man attacks himself which i felt described my experience of lockdown in some ways and the second one was never easy burpees never easy joe wicks is he saying don't do easy burpees or burpees are never easy he's saying they're never easy no they're not easy they're the worst actually i don't think they are the worst they are the worst i think mountain climbers you haven't done enough burpees, I don't think they are the worst. They are the worst. I think mountain climbers. You haven't done enough burpees if you don't think they're the worst.

Yeah, maybe I haven't done enough. What's the most burpees you've done? Well, I do high intensity interval training. So it's 40 seconds on, 20 seconds off. And in 40 seconds, I can only do 12. This is sexy. Men of a certain age talking about burpees. How many can you do?

I did 20 this morning. I did. In total, I did 60. Holy cow. But I did 20 this morning. Good on you, mate. In total, I did 60. Holy cow. But I had to do... No wonder you look so trim. First lot, I stopped after 20, and then I had to do them. And then by the end of it, we were doing, like, blocks of five. With your little man?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, with a trainer. You'd become that guy. Or are you talking about my penis? Is he on Zoom or is he there? He's on Zoom. He was my Joe Wicks. Hey, Ross, shout out to Ross. I used to go to his gym.

You changed your life. I don't know if he changed my life. I'm always expecting him to say like, Sorry, Ross. You know you could get a lot more results if you ate less and drank less. Who said that? I'm just always imagining that he will say it to me but he's too professional drink that much yeah you have like i have it in my head that

your other half once said well you know adam like he has a beer a night and i'm like a beer a night thinking how could it possibly be so little but i didn't say that and she said yeah sometimes i worry about it like oh my god if you worry about one beer a night is that can that really be the case weekends are a little bit more excessive but during the week it's have a non-alcoholic beer a moretti because i had um lee mac on the podcast and we had a whole conversation about trying to trick yourself into drinking less and he was saying that actually he'd found non-alcoholic beer was quite good because it if you get the right flavor of non-alcoholic beer you get that little hit it's just about the routine it's just about it's almost pavlovian i've done the same thing i find it quite effective

there's some pretty good non-alcoholic ipas where right the flavor is hoppy and your body's like it gets the sort of pavlovian yeah it's cold it's fizzy i took the cap off it's got a label that looks like a beer it's job done so yeah what was i saying oh yeah so your book is a great encapsulation of the madness of that period well i tried to be i mean i'm curious to know whether what the bits that you thought were most uh closest to the line of sort of revelation. Well, some of the stuff that you, the stuff about Nancy, I was like, how does this work? Because it's a bit weird for you, I suppose, now,

because she is your business partner and creative partner. Yeah. So she is invested in your success. And if honesty is going to add to the appeal of the book which i think it does then she is invested in you being as honest as you dare be right yeah and she's invested in me like the idea of me pursuing my creative uh inclinations and um she understands that part of what i do in all my work is to try and show a bit more expand the frame a bit more have a little more in the way of self-revelation and authenticity

and that if i'm going to do that when i'm making a film uh or tv program then i need to do it in a book as well but there were parts of it i mean i, I ran everything by her. Yeah, yeah. And when I was writing it, I wrote it more or less as a real diary without thinking. I wasn't sort of writing with a view to publication, especially not initially. And I wanted to just tell the truth about everything. And a lot of what I found interesting was the difficulty of managing relationships when you're all cooped up together

and the carnage of family life, you know, things going wrong, just shouting at one another. And then it was only later on with my editor, also just on my own, I kind of pulled it back. I wanted to keep some of that, but clearly she has mixed feelings about the idea of the world knowing that we have arguments but the way i see it is all relationships that i'm aware of there are arguments i tend to think that nancy and i have a really happy healthy relationship by most standards which is i suppose one of the

reasons i felt safe exposing the more difficult parts yeah you got a good bedrock. Yeah. I suppose the weird thing is that you might write something in the book, and maybe this was even the case with your previous book, that you write something and then it gets discussed in public and then it's embarrassing for her. I guess that's a possibility. That hasn't happened yet. Not that I'm aware of okay

and and i hope it doesn't but you know you you just you accept that i would think anyone would read it and think louis is a bit of a dick but nancy seems really solid because that's more or less the case like she's put up with so much shit in terms of me going away and being an absentee dad like i used to go away three months of the year not consecutively but when you're making three or four documentaries a year that require trips to wherever america south africa you think about that's a quarter of the year and the kids are small when you know the two older guys were small and she's she was having to take up the slack and i know in some cultures or some relationships families that's normal

you think of soldiers i might even use this line on her once or twice like soldiers go away for like two or three years right or look and something my dad used to say to my mum because i suppose part of it is thinking about what my parents did my dad would be away for months at a time and in fact when he wrote his first travel book the great railway bazaar he was away for i don't know what maybe six months consecutively took a train to japan and back from london or a series of trains and did he have children at that point yeah we were four and five we were probably probably three and five years old oh shit and he came back and um i don't, I think this is all in print.

My mum had struck up a relationship with someone at work. She talks about it in her book. I think that's in the book, right? Yeah, yeah. But meanwhile, he was probably, almost certainly getting his, you know, jollies. He came back. So now I'm thinking of your mum's book, which I read after reading yours. Hers came out last year, end of last year.

It's called The Year of the End, a memoir of marriage, truth and fiction by Anne Theroux. And there's a five year old Louis Theroux on the cover. Yeah, that's right. With the whole family's on there. I listened to the audio book of that as I did yours. Right. Well, the whole family's on there. I listened to the audio book of that as I did yours.

And it was quite an odd experience to listen to her talking about those days because essentially it's drawn from a diary that she kept the year that her relationship with your dad ended. Broke down, which was 1990? I think so. Which, as I hardly need to tell you, we were friends at that time. So you probably, and I figure in the book a little bit, I'm off at university, but making sporadic visits. You figure quite a bit, you and Marcel. Right. I read an earlier draft.

I haven't read the published version. Because she first wrote it in the early 90s, not long after it all happened. And I read that draft and then I think she's rewritten and i've read little bits so i'm figuring it's sort of as her drug dealer among other things getting in the ganj which i think is okay afterwards like when my brother read he's like he seemed to think there might be headlines based on drug dealer louis theroux i just picked up a little you know i would basically buy a bit of hash for myself and then give her some.

From? Armory Way. Armory Way. Yeah. So this was a year or two after we'd left school. I think we left 87, summer 87. 87, yeah. And then went off to university in 88, so I'd done two years at university.

Okay, you were at university, yeah, yeah, yeah. I went off to university in 88, so I'd done two years at university. Okay, you were at university. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then there are moments when she refers to you being home for the weekend and saying, oh, I'm going to go out and meet Adam and Joe. Well, you mentioned it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, jeez.

And it's funny, I can remember the nights. I can remember what we did, or at least the sort of things that we used to get up to. remember what we did or at least the sort of things that we used to get up to and i think thinking back on it i do remember you talking about your parents not getting on but it wasn't a massive thing well as far as i was aware like there'd always been arguments and you never have much to compare your family you know your parents relationship to like as a child you grew up you know this is normal like this because this is what I experienced you know you sort of think your family's quite boring yeah interesting things happen in other families and so my parents would argue quite a bit and it seemed to be every Saturday morning when they had to do the shopping

together they'd have an argument and then they'd go to the Safeway in Wimbledon and for some reason I think my dad was very work focused and so whenever he was taken away from his work for too long he would work at the weekends writing he's a travel writer and a novelist he would get tense you know he'd feel like I'm I should be working and that would come out as sort of resentment and then I think there were infidelities what was coming on to say so he would say to her but vis-a-vis his travel like think of me as a sailor i'm like a sailor and you know soldiers and sailors are away for years but it's i don't know how military families do it i imagine it's really difficult because it wasn't really good for their relationship and led to infidelities on both sides

which they were honest with each other about on the whole. I don't know if that's quite true. I think there was a kind of don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue policy. They sort of accepted that that kind of thing would happen. Or at least that's what my mum would say. And she certainly seems hurt by those times. But then she rationalises it a little bit and and and talks about them being you know children of the 60s and that it wasn't uh a total um disaster in that way or at least they felt they could carry on and that was it wasn't like a total open relationship but what

they would how they'd characterize it anyway it was basically my mom saying when my dad's traveling he's allowed to like you know i understand that he may need to get his needs met like get his jollies or whatever but i think the idea was like when he comes back like it's fleeting encounters are okay but you're not supposed to have a kind of long-term other relationship which is what ended up happening. Yeah. Or semi-long-term. You know, some more serious commitment that you've got running alongside your marriage.

That kind of seemed to be what derailed the relationship in the end. In addition to that, though, is the way that your ma felt that your dad felt about her. And in particular, my secret history. Yeah. That book, which is a novel, but based on clearly based on my dad and his,

his family and his, you know what he was doing. And the character called Jennifer parent, who was clearly based on your mom. Yeah. And she didn't appreciate the characterization and felt wounded by it. She says, in fact, she says the book was a betrayal.

Oh, no. Yeah, well, my dad's been smart in as much as he's put a lot of his life into his books, but he's always positioned them as novels. And so he's made up lots of stuff, but there's a core of truth in it. And there's often a kid, usually it's only one. And then I don't know what this says about anything he seems to have one boy in love called jack is that the same in my seat and then jack always seems to be based more on my brother someone who's focused on work and slightly

bearing the weight of the world on his shoulders and sort of trudging around stooped worrying about his exams which it could well be that I'm in there as well I don't know it's so odd the whole thing isn't it like basically the most oversharing family in the world well yeah I mean it's again your mum is quite candid and again I felt having read her book like wow she said more than I expected about some things maybe that's just because I know you guys a little bit I don't know her and and your dad very well at all but did it make you feel differently about your dad though particularly no no no no it didn't you know I I always knew that that their relationship was complicated would you think that it might I mean in other words i don't think

there was much in there that i probably i think i perhaps learned a bit more about my mum's infidelities if i can that term even seems a bit unfair given that it was kind of a yeah most of the time in response to things happening on both sides but there was there's an affair with a guy or she has a fling with a guy on a weekend in budapest and they shag and she's i mean you just don't really i mean it's a bit like when i first read a sex scene that my dad had written in a book called the black house that was fairly graphic the idea of your parents writing about sex yeah it's just not something you really need in your head so but she's totally i completely

support her decision to publish it i don't know if anything that so so the stuff i learned wasn't so much about my dad it was about my mum's interior life and i suppose how committed she was to my dad and how much even when it seemed clear that the end was nigh she continued to want to make it work and then there is the process of these books getting reviewed and other people weighing in and sharing their opinions and making judgments about you about your parents and do you get involved with that at all are you across those i've tuned out a lot of it and i think um i have you know enough to be thinking about with my own projects and i sort of think there's a part of it that you know it's a bit like i don't know i don't know why this analogy sprang to mind but you know you're looking at your

own poo and it's kind of interesting but at the end of the day it's not gonna really it's not gonna get you anywhere that was a terrible and a weird... I mean, you could diagnose the bowel. Yeah, you might have worms. It's a bit like there's plenty of things you can get distracted by. And at some level, I intend to read the finished version of my mum's book. And there's a part of me that's curious about reviews and stuff. But mainly, I've got so little time to think about anything other other than stuff you know I feel like I'm in a

state of triage at the best of times you know I've got a young family starting a business doing my programs executing other things I don't have a lot of time to think about or to unpick the family dynamics yeah does that make sense yeah yeah absolutely and i think i probably do have a degree of unacknowledged or even acknowledged stuff to do with like oh you know everyone oh my upbringing wasn't perfect maybe maybe louis that's um why you leaned on alcohol during the lockdown when there was that much more time to reflect on these things well but i didn't i had less time oh did you oh yeah because you immediately plunged yourself into repackaging shows and yeah i was repackaging shows i was doing my podcast thank you for the microphone jesus i was doing my diary i was trying to keep the kids you know

stay on top of what was happening with the kids and homeschooling so i won't talk too much more about uh your mars book but I really enjoyed it, actually. And she writes well. Oh, good. I'm glad to hear. I shall be pleased to hear that. I applaud her for publishing it. And I feel as though, yeah, I wish every success. I just liked her very much after reading it. And did it make you think differently of my dad? Because I didn't I knew all of that, really. because I didn't I knew all of that really it's so difficult though isn't it with your parents because you love them and you know you know you've seen them in a way that nobody else has

and if you still do love them and they were decent to you and didn't do horrible things to you then it's easy to forgive them all their failings, even if their failings are quite massive. And even if they did a lot of things that you really don't agree with at all, and they were aspects of their personality that you really don't like. I mean, I certainly had that with my dad. There was, there was just, you know, and I grew up thinking that it was, that they were just quirks but now maybe it's easing off a little bit now but after he died i certainly looked back at them and thought fuck you about quite a bit of stuff really yeah of course and and by the way i you know i'm mainly grateful for

everything that they did i feel very lucky to have had the parents that i did and also i acknowledge parts of it that um at times i might have been angry about but i mentioned some of it in the previous book gotta get through this and i think they were you know they both read the book before it went to press and they were very kind about it but i could tell they were a little hurt by aspects of it which i think is very understandable and very human. Of course. Where I sort of say, you know, my dad, you know, on both sides there were infidelities

and clearly like they were trying to be groovy and do it in a kind of 70s, it was a 70s marriage, but it was quite confusing for me as a child growing up at times. And there's a bit where I say, especially once I left home and then the relationship dissolved and i looked back and thought was any of that real like what kind of a relationship did they have and what kind of a family did we have was it like a potemkin village you know this sort of fiction that we all paid lip service to but maybe i was the only one or me

and my brother believed it but now it's revealed to have been an illusion so put that some form of that but then i was like but actually i realize i've got so much to be happy about so much to be grateful for but i think just putting those top two or three sentences in was perhaps quite hurtful you know we've got kids as well so we also thinking what are our kids you know every time i do something like that i regret like raising my voice or just being erratic or being a dick i'm like okay that one's going in the book you know like their future yeah yeah misery memoir yeah yeah my crazy dad it's tricky isn't it Because you feel so close to them, hopefully, and, you know, love them and like them. And so I always feel that if I'm close to someone, if I like someone, if I'm friends with someone, or if I love someone, then they'll understand everything I say and do. And they'll get how I mean it and how it's meant. But of course, that isn't true.

I mean it and how it's meant. But of course, that isn't true. And I'm always so shocked when, and this still happens on a depressingly regular basis, people make it clear to me that they're upset by something I've said or done. And that's true of your children as well. They are still able to misunderstand you. And I do have to remind myself, some of the things that I remember my dad saying, or some of the things that he, some of his attitudes or whatever that I sort of feel wounded by. And then I think, oh, well, he probably thought that I could handle it. Or he probably thought that I would excuse it because it was meant with love. That's what was at the core of it. So if he said something superficially dismissive or a bit cruel. To you?

Yeah. Then it's like, don't take it personally, though. I'm sure he would have hated the idea of me being hurt by it. Absolutely. And especially as they get older, where they've become more vulnerable. Yeah. And their emotions are closer to the surface i'm liable to see them still as being in sort of in their prime and and sometimes i'm guilty of maybe imagining that

they're more robust than they actually yeah yeah and they're not they need um they need more consideration and everything goes in oh my god and gets lodged there i wrote a lengthy email to my daughter the other day because i was sort of being silly about her playing a lot of sport like she is super sporty this person it's crazy great yeah and she's very good at it how old is she now she's 13 yeah in a way that I just never was at all. I never cared about sport. Anyway, I was being sort of dismissive about sport. And then I sort of felt like, oh, that was a bit shit, wasn't it?

Because what she's going to take away from that is that I don't really care about her achievements. You put this in an email? Yeah. What were you thinking exactly what was the idea to not let the moment pass and to express myself properly rather than making a clumsy attempt oh you were apologizing yeah yeah yeah oh i thought in the email you're like so what's all this about your oh yeah no no sorry i didn't explain that well well here's a good example of me not explaining something well.

Yes, I made some silly offhand comments at supper one night and then woke up the next morning and kind of was thinking about it and thought, actually, that was kind of stupid because maybe what she'll take away from that is that I don't really care. Good-natured ribbing? Yeah, but there was a little bit of genuine irritation i think because um we were trying to make plans and it was like oh no we can't do this day we can't do that day because she's got another tournament then and she's doing it then it's

like blimey sports really important isn't it i guess wow So you're like the opposite of a tennis dad. Yes, yeah. I'm like... You're like a comedy caricature, like undermining. Yeah, that's right. You're not going to win. Why don't you give up? You'd be like a character in a sketch. It's the reverse Billy Elliot.

It's the reverse Little League Dad. Yeah. You're trying too hard. I want to... It is absolutely... Slow down. It's just a ball wall you're embarrassing yourself it's the reverse billy elliott because i think that i would like you know i my secret fantasy is that they're all sensitive and arty none of it means anything and then they turn out to be

winning no one cares you're just trying to distract yourself from the screaming void so yeah i wrote her an email did that go down well well in the evening when she got back from school i said did you read my email she's like yeah i realize now where i get my overthinking from she's like of course I didn't get offended but I'm still glad that I did it yeah yeah that was a good thing just in case did the I mean is it is it uncomfortable me asking you about your Mars book did it chuck a bit of a grenade into the family uh no it's it's not uncomfortable if I'm totally honest can i be totally honest i am genuinely curious whether people care not in the like of course they should care about my mum's book but um sure in the scheme of things in the big scheme of things of course yeah but but i'm

happy to talk about it we did it chuck a grenade so probably my dad was thinking, well, we're both 80, 81. Do we need to revisit this? Right. In that sense, I think perhaps it has. But they're in different relationships now. They've both remarried. And I think for my mum, it was important that she publish a book. I think, you know, she's highly intelligent, well-read, studied English at university,

worked as a radio producer. But I think perhaps some part of her always felt like, I would love to make some contribution. One of the themes in the book is being in a relationship with someone who is very celebrated in their field and having to slightly be second fiddle and feel like you're in their shadow sometimes. And it being accepted, certainly in those days, it was like, oh, well, that's what men do. You know, they service their legacy and they...

And the wife is like a handmaiden. Yeah, in order to... She enables them to create this wonderful work that will be timeless and of course women feel that just as much and so she talks about that a lot and the whole idea of legacies and art and she quotes milan kundra saying the novelist destroys the house of his life and uses its stones to build the house of his novel. Well, yeah, I would say there's certainly truth in that. I mean, what strikes me is because one of the parallels with my book, Through the Keyhole, I suppose, is this sense of how we're constantly negotiating and renegotiating gender roles. And that having brought a certain expectation about how things would be into my relationship with Nancy based on what my parents did.

My mum worked, my dad worked, and we had live-in help. Sometimes it would be an au pair or a nanny, but somebody who lived on site who was, when I got home from school, or a nanny but somebody who lived on site who was when I got home from school the um the au pair would like make us something to eat and my mum would get home from work um 5 30 or 6 o'clock and so that's and my dad as I said would go away for months at a time so I when I um started go you know relationship with Nancy and we started a family together it didn't occur to me for a second that i would stop going away like and stop making programs and she started chafing at that and so like basically you haven't adapted no i've adapted i've stopped working and and look at you you're just still doing the same thing and it was a source of a lot of conflict between us and we're

still figuring it out in some ways as i think we are as a culture right yeah yeah i mean that's i'm sure that a lot of people can relate to that and i've talked about it before with people on the podcast about any long-term relationship being a ongoing process of negotiation and recalibration as far as how things work and who gets to do what they want and all that stuff it never stops and especially and during lockdown where the stresses are running high and you're both trying to work at home and then the kids are i found that incredibly stressful and at the same time i suppose i also felt that getting older and having made so many programs maybe I could kick back a bit more I mean I didn't manage to but I kind of started to envision a world where

I didn't travel so much for work and feel good about that yeah hello lovely to see so many friends to see so many friends on which one can lean one's elbow. It is perhaps important to fight, fight, fight right now!

Do it! Fight, fight, fight! Right now, do it! Drink, drink, drink! Time! Time and space. Somewhere, I heard you talk about the fact that, maybe it's in your book, you say you don't like interviews that are too cozy and prefer them to be a little more confrontational so why don't you stick your so-called edgy podcast interviews up

your ass you smug prick that's the kind of thing that now we're getting real how upset were you about the whole mic thing you know i realized was that so for people in radio land at the beginning of um lockdown you were very kind and sent me like a a beautiful microphone like a very high spec professional grade the yeti blue yeti blue microphone not sponsored by them but you've probably got free and i didn't actually pay for that one probably didn't cost that much and over a hundred pounds and I was grateful for it and then

as it turned out by happenstance the pandemic hit and I was invited to do a podcast by BBC Sounds Radio 4

Grounded with Louis Theroux available on BBC Sounds non-stop adverts award winning podcast every single BBC TV show the potties anyway I'd be number one available on BBC Sounds non-stop adverts award winning podcast have you seen my award downstairs

BBC TV show the potties anyway I'd be number one if I had non-stop adverts and so the award winning

podcast I did using your microphone and one of the things that was written for me by our brilliant editor at the time Paul Kobrak

was like it was a bit of boilerplate I think it was even a promo where he's like alright what is it Paul I've sent you over kobrak was like it was a bit of boilerplate i think it was even a promo where he's like all right what is it paul i've sent you over the copy and here it was like using dodgy it's like i'm stuck like everybody else i'm stuck the rest of the world i'm stuck indoors with nothing to do dodgy microphone dodgy microphone and intermittent internet so it was like a it was it was wrapped around like piece of fun

sort of self-deprecating i'm relatable i've got a shit microphone it didn't occur to me that the microphone i was deprecating is that even a word the microphone i was criticizing was actually yours the one that you gave me was gift and i took that fucking mic and i jammed it up your ass yeah no we dealt with this last time you were fine it was fine i liked your podcast i was going to ask you if you ever got tired of me mining the rivalry relentlessly i don't know i don't know if you would have heard me doing it but certainly i seldom miss an opportunity to complain about the success of your podcast i don't know that i've heard enough like to know that that's become a relentless but

i did there was one that you had someone on who did an impression of me okay when i haven't heard i've got a funny thing about hearing myself talked about yeah you know when you stroke a cat and then there's a spot sometimes where it starts kind of making weird movements like it's got a funny spot i'm not talking about its penis. And I don't know, it starts kind of doing involuntary twitching. Kayvan's impression of you is very good. Is it? Yes.

I can never hear one and hear, well, people say you make me smell like... No, no, he doesn't do that. Really? Because Alistair McGowan used to do an impression of you that I didn't think was... Very nasal. Yeah, yeah.

Is this something you do? Is this something... Are you doing that that right now could you do that right now it's like joe wicks doing me doing joe wicks this is me doing mcgowan doing me is that something you do can you do that right now i was on dead ringers with allison mcgowan he's a lovely guy by the way he's great and um he was doing that and i was like has he started doing me like i can't recognize it but then sometimes you hear your own voice and it sounds weird anyway. That's how I rationalise it. Yes, exactly.

And also people latch onto different aspects of how you talk and some of your vocal mannerisms. Kayvan latched onto the softness when you get soft. Are you OK? Was his catchphrase that he would do okay when have i said that they must be okay i don't know it just rang true it's like moments when you are you realize that this is i should be being empathetic now i should be appearing empathetic yeah i guess i have done that there's probably some program where i did that and he's run with that yeah it was good good on him um do you think my podcast conversations are too cozy does that

put you off because you am i right you being needy now are you okay are you okay no i'm not i'm i'm trying to be edgy i was being edgy back are you being needy are you being a little bitch can you say bitch like it's a normal word now i'm always tempted and then i always catch myself and say no i don't think that's cool i don't think it is i mean jesse in breaking bad that was his favorite expression wasn't it but he but if if you're saying it about a man is that better or worse you certainly wouldn't say it about a woman no let's just not say bitch. No. Yeah, are they too cosy?

Do you get put off by the sort of cosiness and the almost certain knowledge that it's not going to get uncomfortable? Do you like things that do get uncomfortable? No, I think you do a good job of pushing back. I don't find, you know, there are podcast interviews where the person is just laughing and just everything's brilliant.

Right. I think you, well, clearly you do your research and then you challenge your guests. Sometimes. No, I mean gently. I'm sure the podcast has made people uncomfortable for other reasons. They might find it too cosy or too self-congratulatory have you ever had one that really jumped the tracks i've had a few that people responded to surprisingly

strongly and negatively when your guest did oh no because i think those bits would get cut out i'm trying to think of you know this is a problem I'm still trying to address. But ones where I really don't connect generally don't see the light of day. And you don't like to talk about them? Well, I'm upfront about it because I feel ashamed. And I want to make it clear in case the people hear it, that it's not necessarily their fault. That it was just a disconnect sometimes what's the encounter that haunts you oh well it's like you the ones that you that misfire generally don't don't get

on tv but because because obviously if they misfire big style then that's good yeah there's a certain kind of misfire is quite good yeah but you don't i mean you know i have a you know i had a run of three programs that went out recently on bbc2 and they're on iplayer called forbidden america and yeah i was very much you know that one of them's about the far right so awkwardness is part of it but it's me basically attempting to challenge them and sparks fly which is you, you know, as far as I'm concerned, makes for a strong program in the world of rap. Like there's guys who I'm more or less sympathetic with,

like I like their music and I'm trying to connect with them. One that went on that was in the program was with a guy called hot boy where we had a good connection, but then he got very high during the interview and then for reasons that were never completely clear to me he got annoyed he just i think possibly the interview just lasted longer than he expected and he just got in a huff and stalked off there was another one where which didn't get on where i interviewed a rapper called poo shysty who's who had a hit called back in blood last year it's a really good track he's from memphis tennessee anyway after a

very long day and a lot of protracted negotiations we were at this very hot outdoor festival in florida trying to get to poo shysty's van so after about 10 hours of being in hot sunshine with loud music and finally being allowed into his van I was just frazzled like I just lost focus I'd lost he didn't know where I was coming from he's probably like 20 years old I was just feeling kind of bruised and a bit lost it just it felt insubstantial and you could see me, well, I could see me sort of sweaty and just tired and not on top of my game. And it's painful when you watch those. And then as a team, you know, I remember one of the producers saying about something else, well, I can get you an interview

and I guarantee it'll be better than the Pooh Shiesty interview. Like it became kind of acknowledged. Touchstone. This is clearly not a good interview yeah yeah and at my age you know with the kind of number of interviews i've done maybe that's helpful a chastening reminder that it can still i can still really get it not like horrifically wrong it's just very hard like you get your 20 minutes i just knew i don't have very long here no one really wants us here that much.

That might've been in my head. And I didn't turn it into, I didn't manage to turn it into anything. There probably was a world where if I had my wits about me, it would have been a usable scene. Yeah. And then you've got the other problem,

which is that you're so well known in certain quarters. Now you've got the kind of Sacha Baron Cohen Borat problem of your reputation preceding you and in the one about the far right of the forbidden america series you got that guy beardson beardly yeah who he's wearing a t-shirt with my face on it when i turned up wearing a t-shirt so he's he's classic kind of meme guy he's sort of an irony bro is one of the terms yeah which is where all this stuff gamer he basically makes money from donations doing streaming of himself playing video games yeah and a podcast and a podcast and so much of that I mean you say at one point in the doc

that none of this stuff and movements like America First wouldn't exist without the internet. Yeah. Beards and Beardly, if you've seen it, you'll know, looks a bit like he should be riding a chopper bike around Hoxton. Like he's got kind of a hipster beard and he's a bit dweeby, but I think he describes himself as an artist and he i don't know if he's got tattoos but he says i'm you know i'm a punk rock kid anything that's radical or goes against

the mainstream that's what i'm interested in and you know that's what i want to get into and he was taken out but he said he's like i'm like stephen colbert i'm a comedian but you know of the right and we took it out only because we thought British audiences might not know who Stephen Colbert was. And then on the way there, I'd found footage of him online where he seemed to be doing two Nazi salutes. And then another, later I found another image of him doing what looked like a Nazi salute.

And then I found podcasts where he seemed to be talking about, oh, we need to disguise our far right opinions and stop using obviously racist imagery and hide under that. You know, it's all about optics. We need to be more optical. So by the time I got there, I was kind of hacked off. I was annoyed. You know, it's upsetting when you see someone who you've spoken to, because I'd already met him at this other event. You know, like I'm saying, it happens a lot doing a nazi salute it's so annoying when you see someone

you one of your friends doing a nazi salute and you're like i didn't know you were nazi but no but i genuinely felt like this little shit i shouldn't say that but i did i thought this little shit he's out there doing nazi salutes and then he has the chutzpah to say like i'll come and do an interview with you and And you can ask me about whatever. I'm like, I'm not going to let him get away with that. Like, which can be a kind of bad place to operate from. But maybe it was necessary that you feel irked. You feel like this guy's, he's hiding.

And he thinks he can slip it past me. So when I arrived, more or less within 15 minutes, I'm like, let's get this out of the way. What were these salutes all about? And he's he's like oh those weren't Nazi salutes they were just me doing like military salutes I'm like and then by then my dander was up and I was like come on do me a favor they quite evidently looked like Nazi salutes and then I said you had one job like you're at this event it's all about normalizing the far right and we've got to do away with anything that seems too outlandish and racist you had one job not to do any nazi salutes and you didn't do it you failed you could argue i went into badgering mode i don't know like i've got a bad habit of overpicking and trying to think like

was that too much so he got annoyed and he's like you know what he's like he goes fuck you you've got no integrity you guys you're a shitty journalist you're a hack and so he got go get the fuck out of my house and it blew up but actually in the long run that was really positive because we sort of needed an explosive moment yeah it was it felt very modern as well him immediately blogging about it online. He jumped on his, not just blog, but video blog. He jumped on his video streaming show within five minutes. And then you were watching it in the car on your phone.

So we were driving along. My director's like, he's on, he's doing his show. And I'm like, okay, we have to call him to the show. Exhausting. It was exhausting. It was really odd. Because on one level, I i'm thinking we took a plane and drove two hours to get here oh within 15 or 20 minutes he's like get the fuck out of my house

but on another level like 15 minutes of really great material that's all you need that's a good day and then a question that perhaps you've been asked do these people need another platform uh well you could say they don't really need one um but is it in in the modern in the net age when so many things are captured and repurposed and intersect with so many things that you wouldn't necessarily want to promote is it better better just to ignore or leave well enough alone and try to, you know, hope that they will just sort of burn themselves out? I think that's valid. Like, I think for me, I sort of think that I understand that term platform. For me, what we're doing is journalism. And if you're curious about what the world looks like if you're curious about how people are getting they're coming by their racist views like and how people are sort of

falling out with one another based on information or misinformation i should say that they're finding on social media or on esoteric streaming sites, then I think to do journalism about that's totally valid. Like I was thinking about, you know, platform is just in the literal sense, you're giving someone a platform, here's a platform, jump on it and say what you want. But if you're challenging and confronting, that's just journalism, right? And actually, not only do I think it's valid like i think it's important you know especially for those of us who aren't familiar with 4chan and the internet space and the way in which racist views and you know deeply destructive opinions are disguised as

bants which is more or less what it is right in a nutshell they say like this is just comedy this is bants this is us just being this is tasteless we're in the tradition of george carlin and bill hicks i'm sure beards and beardly would be au fait with many sort of hipster ironists and provocateurs and so they say like we're just that's what we're doing but then that's not what they're doing they're actually promoting hate under the guise of being provocateurs and i think to report that and bring the news about that is important and i don't think anyone's success listen to me tooting my horn it's been around like this is it's been around at least you'll know this like seven or eight years maybe 10 years in a sense it embodies the internet culture of the beginning of 4chan which was probably about

10 years ago it was john ronson who first started telling me about things like 4chan and 8chan it was around 2012 or 13 does that sound about right to you yes maybe a bit earlier than he's saying like there's these bulletin boards and people just say horrendous things they make jokes about 4chan was around in the early 2000s. Yeah. And there's boards where you just say anything you want. Like, and I had kind of mixed feelings about it.

I thought, well, it, you know, there's a sense in which if it's in a private space, tasteless jokes, in some sense, it's not that surprising that that's taking place.

But then that then set the tone for a whole culture that became very powerful partly through movements like anonymous but then also through the vanguard of of the pro-trump internet army self-described trolls who would present the case for for trump mainly because they saw him as a disruptor or they saw him as his tastelessness as reflective of how they saw the world you know and then it just grew and grew and then it still exists so i think i don't think anyone's covered that in the way that we covered it because it's a hard thing to put a finger on because they film you when you arrive have you seen the fun of you have they made a have they finished a doc about i'm aware of no did you see the No. Did you see the Tommy Robinson thing on John Sweeney?

No. John Sweeney at Panorama, as he then was, tried to do a thing about Tommy Robinson. And long story short, thought he was doing a sting on Tommy Robinson and had someone on side. Meanwhile, their inside person turned out to be two-timing them turned out to actually be reporting everything back secretly filming Sweeney and reporting it and giving it back to Tommy Robinson and so in the big showdown when Sweeney thought he was turning the tables on Tommy Robinson it went the other way and the panorama never aired and Tommy Robinson put out a tv show or or an internet video called

panodrama that just completely wrong-footed Sweeney and I only mentioned in the context of that's always like a worst case scenario where the new media just made the old media look kind of hopelessly flat-footed and where was Tommy Robinson coming from as far as what was he accusing he was saying you are attempting to make me look far right i'm not far right and in fact you got drunk with this contributor that you had on board who you thought was on side with you you abused your expense account got totally shit-faced now sweeney denies that he used his expense account said he's paid for all the booze and then used offensive terms like poofs and various ill-judged terms that Sweeney used and said, you're the real bigot.

Look at all this stuff you said. And really, it felt the real takeaway, though, was that Sweeney just was outmaneuvered. It was that was really it wasn't substantive as such. It was more the case that Sweeney, the kind of wily journalist, was outmanoeuvred by Robinson. What would you do in that situation if a dot came out? You have to imagine when you're with a contributor, A, especially the far right, that they may be on side with the people you're reporting on.

You clearly have to expect that you're reporting on you clearly um have to expect that you're being recorded at all times i don't like this is a whole rabbit warren but you know did you ever watch i mean it's kind of the journalist's worst nightmare in a way did you ever watch when michael jackson's people released a video of martin bashir no and then there's bits of bashir going michael when i see you around children it just makes me want to weep it's so beautiful something like that oh yeah okay and and just embarrassing things of bashir just pouring it's a cynical flattery all over jacko and it just looked yucky and unscrupulous anyway the point being so i think uh these

subjects are hard to handle and i think there is a world where you could do it badly and end up just promoting or giving uncritical airtime to an ugly internet phenomenon but obviously i don't think that's what we did well that was a long answer back to Diffo and you might pick that up the Dame Vera Lynn of the simple casting Dame Vera Lynn as if he's like a national treasure

someone who genuinely gave it's called irony it's called irony it's ironical not really though is it? Well, I did help a lot of people. I'm the Neville Chamberlain of lockdown podcasting. Wait, this is an advert for Squarespace.

Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace. Just visit squarespace.com slash buxton for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch,

use the offer code BUXTON to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Continue. Have you not ejaculated in six days? That must be strange for you. Are you okay? You know, I don't like it when people do impressions of my impression back to me when I'm trying to do an impression.

Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was a clip from the Kayvan Novak episode of the podcast. Kayvan doing an impression of this week's guest, Louis Theroux. Thanks very much to Lou for giving up his time. Much appreciated. I've put links in the description to a few bits and pieces as well as that Joe Wick's

ice bath video and some information about cold water immersion. I've also got... what have I got there? That Forbidden America programme, Extreme and Online, that we were talking about. There is also an article about

how Louis became a TikTok sensation a few weeks back. You were aware of that, weren't you? I was aware of that. It's the rap song. Yeah. My money don't jiggle jiggle. It bubbles.

So were your friends aware of that? Yeah. It was quite weird, actually, because everyone was doing it. And I was just in my little corner being like, I know him. Yeah. It was quite crazy.

Well, it's crazy for me too as well because you just think this guy doesn't need any more exposure he's already got the bbc publicizing the hell out of his podcast in a very unfair way and now tiktok as well it's like oh you're joking anyway now i'm giving him more publicity and I've put links in the description to the audiobook versions of Theroux the Keyhole and Louis Mum's book, The Year of the End, a memoir of marriage, truth and fiction. it's not especially long, just over six hours, and all shorter things, in my opinion, should be celebrated, including short men, of whom I am one. The shorter the better. I read an article the other day that said, for many people people their main criterion when it comes to selecting a movie on a streaming platform is the running time and a lot of people just look for a short running time and make their decision that way and I just thought yes that absolutely confirms something confirm something I've been wanging on about for a long, a long time, which is keep it short.

If you're going to go over 90 minutes, you should have to pay a fine. And if you're one of these ludicrous three-hour superhero films, then you have to pay a lot of tax batman sorry the batman that should have been enough tax to set up a few schools and run a few hospitals i reckon what do you think i thought it was good okay definitely too long because i don't like a long movie either but i thought entertaining and fun maybe not fun entertaining yeah okay what else in the links today oh yes a worthy cause uh this is someone related to comedian robin intz francesca her name is, and she is a paediatric nurse who is currently raising funds under the name of Chat UK, or at least a website called Chat UK, and she is cycling around the UK

to raise awareness, funds and hope for seriously ill children and their families. So this is to raise funds for 54 children's hospices. The goal is to raise half a million pounds. I've already donated and I've put a link in the description of the podcast if you would also like to donate. She's cycling 3,200 miles. That's a lot of miles. It's loads of miles in order to try and raise funds. I'm quoting from the website now, Chat UK. Not many people really understand the work our children's hospices do. That is, unless you have a seriously ill child, then you understand children's hospices in a whole new light.

Caring for a child with serious health needs round the clock can be emotionally and physically exhausting. Many seriously ill children need specialist care 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Every day, children's hospices across the UK are helping children and families make the most of the time that they have together. So I'd say that's pretty high up on the good cause totem pole. If you are able to donate or support in some way, then you'll find a link in the description of the podcast. Thanks. Okay, I think that's more or less it for this week. This week's family episode.

Thank you very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production and support. Thanks to Helen Green. She does the artwork for this podcast. Thanks to ACAST for their continued support. Thanks to Helen Green. She does the artwork for this podcast. Thanks to ACAST for their continued support. Thanks to you, Hope, for joining me on my ramble. And I hope you don't get too badly bullied off the back of it. I think I'll become even more popular off the back of it. I think I'll become even more popular off the back of it. Sure.

But, Podcats, thank you very much indeed for listening. I really appreciate it. And this might be the last episode for a little while. I've got a few bits and pieces to do over the next few weeks. And I'm going to take a bit of a summer break with the family. Thanks very much if you came along to the bug shows recently in Brighton. That was a hot one. If you were in Brighton baking in the sunshine there

for the Brighton Comedy Garden Festival show. Thanks. I had a good time. I hope you did too. I look forward to seeing some of you next weekend at Jodrell Bank for the Blue Dot Festival.

And I think we're all going along to that, me and my family. So I'm looking forward to doing a Best of Bug show there in the afternoon on Saturday. And then I'm hoping to to doing a best of bug show there and in the afternoon on Saturday and then I'm hoping to see metronomy play and mogwai I think they're both on that night I think square pusher is around somewhere on Saturday and the orc of course be exciting so uh maybe i'll see some of you there but until next time and i'm not exactly sure when that'll be but certainly if there's a gap now we'll start putting out new episodes me and the

team the giant team that does the podcast in uh i would say, end of September, early October, or thereabouts. Until then, take great care. Keep that sunscreen handy. Insert comment about Tory party leadership elections here. Quick hot hug. Come on. Hope you're able to stay cool in all the different ways there are to stay cool. Hope you get to have some fun over the summer. And, oh, for what it's worth, I love you. Bye! Bye. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe.

Please like and subscribe. Give me a little smile and a thumbs up. Nice, take a bite, put me a thumbs up. Give me a little smile and a thumbs up. Nice, take a bite, put me a thumbs up. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe.

Like and subscribe. Give me a little smile and a thumbs up. Bye. Thank you.