THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.188 - GRAHAM NORTON

Episode Date: October 2, 2022

Adam talks with Irish author, comedian and chat show host Graham Norton about interviewing, book writing, the value of hippies and what makes an embarrassing chat show guest.This episode was recorded face to face in London on 25th March 2022Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support.Podcast artwork by Helen Green RELATED LINKSLOVE AND LET DIE: BOND, THE BEATLES AND THE BRITISH PSYCHE by John Higgs - 2022 (WATERSTONES)SAMRIA AHMED INTERVIEWS GRAHAM NORTON ON 'HOW I FOUND MY VOICE' PODCAST - 2020 (APPLE PODCASTS)GRAHAM NORTON BOOKS (WATERSTONES)TOM HIDDLESTON'S ROBERT DE NIRO IMPRESSION - 2015 (YOUTUBE)GRAHAM NORTON'S WINE AND GIN (INVIVO & CO) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how you doing, podcats? Adam Buxton here.

It's the 1st of October, 2022. And I am walking along a country path on a nice day, a bit windy, out here in the East Anglian countryside. And things are getting autumnal. That's interesting, Buckles. Shut up. How's Rosie? Rosie's fine. She's not with me today. She wasn't with me last time either, was she? fine she's not with me today she wasn't with me last time either was she last time she was too sad to come out because of the queen this time she's a bit limpy we're gonna get that looked at make sure everything's totally okay otherwise she's doing fine. She was very excited the other morning because we got invaded by cows. We woke up, went outside, and there was just cows all over the place in the garden, around the side of the house. They got out of one of the fields, pushed their way through our gate,

fields push their way through our gate, which doesn't happen very often. And when it does happen, it's usually just one or two cows, road cows, and it's sort of fun. It's like, yeah, look, our house looks like a Pink Floyd cover. And it's a bit surreal and then they go away and it's all fine. This time I'd say there was about 30 of them, 40 maybe. Including a big bull. Big bully bull with a ring through its nose and horns. It was laughing at me. It asked me what team I support. And this cow gang started off by munching all the apples and branches of a series of apple bushes, trees, that my wife has lovingly tended since we moved into the house. Anyway, when they got bored of the apples, they lumbered round the side of the house

and into type garden. But it's not designed for cows, really. Or at least not large groups. And there's some young trees down the end of the garden that we planted when we moved in. trees down the end of the garden that we planted when we moved in and the cows made a beeline for the young trees and started giving them quite a bit of hassle. I went down there to try and reason with the cows very cautiously. I've said on this podcast before you've got to be careful with cows. You know they've got a lot of legitimate grievances, the cow community, and they are sitting on a lot of rage, more than you might imagine. So you don't want to end up as a cow trampling statistic.

Eventually, a couple of farm blokes turned up and persuaded the cow gang to leave. But now the garden and the area around the house is a bit of a no man's land of battle damage. And a lot of poo cakes. Poo pads. Cow cakes. And trying to get those cow cakes off the gravel. Isn't nearly as much fun as I thought it was going to be. Anyway, that's the situation here at Castle Buckles, but I hope you're doing well. Now, let me tell you about today's podcast, though, and my guest, the Irish actor, author, comedian, commentator, TV and radio presenter,

author, comedian, commentator, TV and radio presenter, Graham William Walker, a.k.a. Graham Norton. Here's some naughty facts for you. Graham, currently aged 59, was born and grew up in County Cork, in the south-west of Ireland. His comedy career began in the late 1980s, after he moved to London, where he attended drama school and worked as a waiter, a job that, as you will hear, he didn't enjoy. At least, he ended up not enjoying it.

More rewarding in every way was the drag act Graham had started doing at comedy clubs, was the drag act Graham had started doing at comedy clubs, which involved using a tea towel to impersonate Mother Teresa of Calcutta. A run at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival brought the act to a wider audience, and soon the gates to showbiz began to open. This is great. open. This is great. Yeah, I spent all morning planning my walk so that I would be at that gate when I got to that part. Presenting and acting jobs soon followed, but by the end of the 90s, Graham had established himself as one of the freshest and funniest TV interviewers around with his Channel 4 shows So Graham Norton and The Graham Norton.

They aired between 1998 and 2003. In 2005, Graham made the move to the big British castle where he would present various shows including annual coverage of the Eurovision Song Contest, a gig he's just announced that he is stepping down from. In the meantime, Graham has interviewed just about every major celebrity in the world, since he began hosting his multi-Bafta Award-winning BBC chat show, The Graham Norton Show, in 2007. As if all that wasn't enough, he presented a well-loved

radio show on BBC Two for a decade from 2010, moving to Virgin Radio in 2021. And he's a judge on the UK version of RuPaul's Drag Race. And he was the voice of Moonwind in the 2020 Pixar film Soul. And he's written two autobiographical books and three novels, four if you count his novella The Swimmer, published earlier this year. The fourth novel proper from, quotes, best-selling king of the small-town Irish mystery, as he is referred to on Amazon, is called Forever Home. And it is due to be published in April of 2023. My conversation with Graham was recorded face-to-face in London town, back in March of

this year, and we talked about writing and interviewing, both of which I asked Graham for handy tips on, and he gave me some of them. We also talked about what Graham learned from his time living in a San Francisco hippie commune in his early 20s and I explained why I never ever want to be a guest on his chat show. Even though at some point I'm sure, I think we're all sure, that they will beg me to go on there but we began by discussing the fluffy covers that I use on the microphones I'll be back at the end for a bit more waffle but right now with Graham Naughty Norton here we go Ramble Chat Let's have a Ramble Chat We'll focus first on this Then concentrate on that Come on, let's chew the fat

And have a Ramble Chat Put on your conversation coat And find your talking hat La, la, la, la, la, la La, la, la, la, la, la I've got very fluffy plosive mitigators on the mic. It looks like there must have been something on them at some point saying do not wash and you wash them they look it's like a very very fluffy black cat tail or the thing from um what's that star trek episode where they're oh the tribbles yeah Oh, the Tribbles. Yeah. Are you a Trekker? No, not at all. Not at all.

But I know that. Very definite response to that. No way. Jose. That was one of the shows that maybe you didn't watch as a youngster. I know you watched a lot of TV and you said you would watch anything that was on. Oh, yes. That's why I know the Tribbles.

I would watch Star Trek because it was on, but I wouldn't enjoy it. It wasn't one of my faves. No. You know. Yeah. Nice to see you. It's nice to see you. I think, you know, I mean, you know, we've never hung out or anything, but we used to

see each other in the old Channel 4 days. Yes. We were contemporaries, more or less, and we knew you to sort of wave to at award ceremonies and things like that yeah it was kind of it was fun back in those channel four days yeah um because channel four is in horse ferry road have they gone now they end up building it all now oh i don't know i haven't been there for years yeah i occasionally cycle past but i think they i think they are still there but they're moving is it Leeds they've gone to? Is it?

Yeah. I'm totally out of the loop. Basically, I don't know. Well, you were born in this country. I came to this country and I thought, where would I go? London seems the best place. Yeah. And then I have never been anywhere else. You know, on the radio, I'm reading out like texts from people.

I have no idea where they are. I'm reading out like texts from people in places. I have no idea where they are. I'm like one of those really thick American beauty contestants who could not point at any of these places on a map. I know nothing about British geography. Yeah. Same here. Totally useless.

What about world geography? Are you any better at that? I mean, I could probably find Warsaw before I could find Wadlington or, you know. Right. Is that a place? It should be. It sounds like one. It sounds like a sweet place.

But you're well-travelled though, right? So that helps with geography. When you've actually been to places, everything starts to make sense a little bit. Now, that is odd that you get the impression I'm well-travelled. Are you not? Well, I wish I was more. I feel like I'm about to be 59, and I feel like I've gone nowhere, and now the world's so dangerous you can't go anywhere.

I feel like I've missed the boat. I just assumed that at some point you would have done Graham does Michael Palin travel-type show. Back in Channel 4 days, we did do a few. We went to... You went to Japan? We went to Japan. We went to china i think shanghai we went to shanghai um and we went to mexico city and i'd had enough i i mean it's so painful just could you pick up the cup again and just need some covering shots and all that.

I love being in a television studio where the cameras are all pointing at the thing they need to. And everything's lit at the same time. And when the show's over, you walk away. And that suits me. You don't love the actual process of traveling and. As a person, I do. Yeah. As a person i do yeah as a person i do i mean i i like going places like i said i wish i went to more places but i seem to go to the same places all the time i just go to ireland and new york oh that's it folks yeah um and i must break that

habit you know it's a big world well i mean I mean, three places is quite, it's probably enough. I mean, that's enough to, if you like them, that's probably enough. Like when you get bored with one, you can go to the other one and they're never going to feel so over familiar. You've always got one to go to and you can maybe not go to New York for a few months. And when you go back to New York, wow, look at New York. Isn't New York great? And I guess the danger of traveling is you'll find somewhere you prefer. Right.

And then what do you do? Because it could be further away. There might be fewer flights. It might be more expensive to get there. Yeah. So, yeah, your life is ruined. Now, when I knew that I was going to be talking to you, and thank you so much for agreeing to do this, by the way. Well, I love this podcast.

Oh, thanks, man. I immersed myself in all things norton even though i was already you know i was already a fan so i was already immersed in a kind of superficial way i feel you knew enough yeah but then i went deeper i got the books i got the autobiographies. I listened to the interviews. Samira Ahmed just blazed through all the questions I was going to ask you on her podcast on how I found my voice. She's so clever. That podcast is great. I've been on that. Produced by Farah Jassat. I only mention that because when a podcast is so well produced, I always just think, good on you.

I'm going to mention that producer's name because it's so nicely put together. It's got archive. It's tight. She's a brilliant interviewer, Samira. And it's sort of like she's not, she's formal, but not too formal. It's all good. Why are British podcasts so much shorter than American podcasts? Oh, that's a good question.

Well, I think concision is important, right? I think all podcasts should be edited. And who's got three and a half hours to listen to Joe Rogan wanging on? Who's got three and a half hours to sit there wanging on with him? You know, thanks, Joe. But, you know.

I mean, the thing is that he is a, obviously, world-class wanger. He can wang for America. He can wang for America. He does wang for America. And he's very, very good at it. I mean, God, it's incredible that he doesn't flag. He does so many shows. He does them at such length.

And he keeps the content coming. And there's no suggestion that he's ever lost. Or, you know, he never sort of goes, what should we do now? Do you want to have any jokes or anything? There's none of that. Flip through a magazine together. Exactly. Which is generally the technique that I would employ and many other Brits would, too.

I suppose that model of super slick presenting is more that that's in the genes in america isn't it don't you think well also i think it's talk radios in their genes they have you know those shock jocks who just talked for hours whereas you know we had radio too there was a song in a minute uh so you know it was never we were not used to people doing those monologues i mean even on i can't remember is it lbc? Or maybe it's BBC London, where they don't have songs. Oh, yes. They've just got people with opinions. Yeah. But the person who hosts it, they have to have an opinion for such a long time before another person rocks up. You know, I like to talk. I couldn't do that. I couldn't do it. I would maybe

get a minute in and then kind of go, well, that's what I think. Well, they take calls, though, don't they? They still talk for a hell of a long time before the calls come. Yeah. Do you ever take calls on your show? No. Oh, actually, I like. We do.

We play a game sometimes just because we do. And there are callers on that. And it's nice to talk to the people but you know i don't want to know what they think you know i always think you know 24 hour news news doesn't need to be 24 hours and i think vox pops are the lowest form of news and they now they're in the 10 o'clock news they're talking to people outside of Clinton Cards about what do you think about the new whatever. I say, no, talk to a fucking expert. If you've got time to stand around Clinton Cards,

chances are your opinion isn't very valuable. It drives me mad. It drives me mad. Norton slams Clinton Cards customers. Your opinion isn't valuable, says the talk show host. Well, it is when it comes to cards. And they're obviously thoughtful people because they're buying cards. Yeah. What about the things they do on American chat shows? I'm thinking of Jimmy Fallon's show where he plays games and he resurrects old panel show formats and plays those in little segments do you like

that kind of thing and is that something you ever considered for your shows when we started back in channel four days we used to play loads of games um because you know oftentimes we didn't have guests there was a lot to say to and so it was a way of keeping the yucks coming was play some silly game with the audience and involve a celebrity. And, you know, most of them involved waving a dildo around. But they were kind of silly games. And I kind of enjoyed doing them. And I think one of the reasons for doing them is because if you're on five nights a week they're quite a quick easy thing to produce and it there's a familiarity you know it's time to play blah blah blah and it's like oh i like

this or you know silly game it's a guessing game i can play along so it's a it's i think it's a clever thing for production to do if you're doing something five nights a week because the chances of having guests who will be able to keep you interested with anecdotes and opinions and chat for five nights a week, that's slim. Five nights a week, that is a nightmare. You talk about how excited you were when you got your first opportunity

to be on that frequently on TV. And I just think, my God, what a maniac. What were you thinking? I suppose because I... I guess you were confident. Well, it was I looked to America and I thought that was the nut to crack. Okay.

Somehow I thought that Britain should have that as well. That was the way that, you know, that was the sort of talk show I wanted to do, you know, stack them high. Wogan was doing it five nights at that point, three, three,

three. And, and Jonathan, he did a three night a week one as well. So Jack Doherty actually was the first one to do five nights. Right. On channel five. And that's where I cut my teeth.

And that's what I loved that. I loved the kind of the sausage factory of it. Yeah. That you went in every day and it was a new thing. And you did a show. Sometimes it was a good show. Sometimes it was a bad show. But it didn't matter because tomorrow there's another show. © BF-WATCH TV 2021 Throughout our conversation, I want you to step in if you ever feel that you can give me a conversational or interviewing tip.

Okay. Right? Or if you want to say, you see, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't really ask that question. I'm genuinely keen to hear any criticism, constructive or otherwise. Because, I mean, Jesus, you are now, whether you like it or not, one of the masters. And you're very good at it.

I love watching you. And you may cringe at the… I've got to say, listener, I am cringing. It was something where my silence made it. I could even just smile benignly and nod. He was smiling and rubbing his tummy. Thank you. Thank you for noticing, Adam.

Yes. Yes. No, I was cringing. Licking his paws. No, he was, Adam. Yes. Yes. No, I was licking his paws. No, he was cringy and quite right. It's embarrassing. It's cringy to do compliments like that. But it's true. And so I'm curious to know there must be things that, you know, at this point in your career, things that you've picked up over the years that maybe you're not even that aware of. that maybe you're not even that aware of, but are you aware of certain things when you're interviewing people now that are good to do at the start of an interview perhaps,

things that you've picked up, things that you would never do now that perhaps you used to? Somewhere on YouTube, and I started watching and I had to stop, a guy, some sort of body language expert, was picking apart what I do when I introduce the guests and how I greet them and the parts of their body

I touch and, you know, it was weird and, you know, because I don't think about it, I had to stop watching it because it was like that way madness lies.

The only things what I try to do now is I try to make questions shorter so there's less of me. I rarely put jokes in the questions because you want them to be funny. You want

them to get the laughs. If they don't, then you can seek a little laugh in at the end of their bit. You can say something funny there and earn your money. But when I was starting out, I was delighted if I thought of a funny question. And, of course, that's not my job. My job is to make them funny, not the other way around. And it takes a while for me anyway.

It took a while to learn that because it's quite a confusing job because i think there's a very big difference between being an interviewer and being a chat show host and i'm a chat show host so i think you ask different sorts of questions and you engage with your guests in a different way and i think the confusion with hosting a chat show is because your name the name of the person is normally in the title of the show and you walk out the beginning and there's all the clapping and so it's quite high status but the minute the guests appear it's low status because you are shit on their shoe and And you've got to be that. You've got to, no matter who they are, you've got to try and make them funnier than you, more famous than you, more interesting than you.

That's the gig. And I think that's where sometimes people go wrong because they think my name's over the door. More of this show should be about me. And I probably am still really bad at that and probably still, there probably is still too much of me in the show. But that's the aim. I don't think there is too much of you.

I mean, I think I know exactly what you mean, but I certainly, if I was ever in that position, would be, well, I like the podcast format because it's more of a conversation you listen to it a different way yeah it's like two friends talking i think but i do watch your show for you i wouldn't necessarily watch it you know i could tolerate it if someone was filling in for you fine but it's better when you're on and i'm interested to hear what you have to say i laugh at your asides and your comments and and your comments,

and, you know, there are times when I think, oh, I could handle a bit more, Graham, but I know what you're saying, and it's good, I suppose, to have that level of restraint always in your vision. How about being interviewed yourself now? I mean, I don't suppose it's something you necessarily relish. I've heard you saying that you find interviews a bit of a drag before. No, not even that.

I just think I'm a poor booking. You know, I kind of think, oh, has it come to this? So I kick off this run with you, I think. Uh-oh. Well, that's good. In terms of a graph, it's a very, very good first episode to have. That graph is shooting for the stars. But, yes i it's a

bit like having a photograph taken i always feel like i i wish there was more i wish i could you know slip my top off or something you always i just always feel like photographer is you know not they they wish they were taking pictures of something or someone else so i feel like that in interviews have you ever had an interview that you wanted to walk out of or came close to walking out of? And if so, why? That's a good question. I don't think I have.

I remember years ago, I was doing some press for some Channel 4 thing and I was on a mobile phone and they were talking to me and they were asking me things I didn't want to answer. What, like personal things? Yeah, I guess it must have been. I don't even remember what the questions were. But all I remember was having this kind of blinding realization that I didn't have to tell the truth. I'm not under oath here. So now in interviews, I often lie. Oh, yeah. Because who cares?

I don't care. You don't care. The listener doesn't care. You know, unless I committed a crime and, you know, you're doing j'accuse, then, you know, it's just it's like a comedian. comedian if they tell a funny anecdote if it's not strictly accurate if actually a man didn't come up at the end and say that you don't care because it's it's funny and i'm glad you made the effort to do that and i felt like i it was a really it was a very freeing moment yeah to realize that you don't have to tell the truth. Right. You're not a historical figure in that way. I mean, you are in showbiz terms.

I wouldn't write history based on my reports. What about when you're writing, though? I mean, you have two incarnations of yourself as a writer, one as a novelist, and one as an autobiographer. Two autobiographical books at this point, So Me and Life and Loves of a He-Devil, both of which I enjoyed, both of which surprised me with their frankness at various points. Are you keeping it truthful in there, or how are you playing it?

In there, I am keeping it truthful. As far as, well, you know, it's my truth. truth sure you're embellishing somewhere and you're editing elsewhere but and it's also it's how i remember things and i think that's i'm kind of fascinated by that idea of you know when you talk to someone and they'll say oh yeah I used to see you in that bar all the time. And I go, now, if I've been in that bar, I've been in once. But that person must have been there that night and now in their memory, I've been there lots. And I think I must do that as well. And sometimes if you haven't told a story for a long time

or just someone asks you a question in a different way, you're telling the story and as you're telling it you remember, oh yeah, this is the version I tell but of course this isn't what happened. It's just the version I've been telling for 30 years. And so that's bound to happen in those books. But there was close

there was kind of, you know, the omissions. I left things out but I didn't lie about anything that happened and was there any pushback from people involved from family members friends television executives former lovers uh former lover former lover sounds awful doesn't it ex-boyfriend an ex-boyfriend um because i mean you must have this when you wrote your book navigating what stays personal and what stays private and what well i just thought dad's dead i'll throw him under the bus

when it suits me you know i'm being silly but uh obviously i agonized over what i should and shouldn't say but i i guess i was much freer with him because he wasn't around. Yeah, I mean, that certainly does give you a freedom. But interestingly, there is an ex-boyfriend who's so irate about that book. what a rosy tinted version of events i put in that book thinking well he can't be annoyed with this because this is so not what happened this is so uh such a lovely version of of what happened and i paints him in a very nice way and me in a terrible way no no still annoyed wow yeah still and you didn't check before no i didn't i didn't because it because it was so saccharine what i you know not the truth at all and lots of kind of mea culpa it was all my fault it ended and yeah did you worry about that though

did that make you feel bad or did you just think oh well i can't do worry about that, though? Did that make you feel bad? Or did you just think, oh, well, I can't do anything about that? No, it made me think I'm very glad I'm not in a relationship with this person anymore. Because they're clearly a dick. Speaking of dicks, would it be dickish to quote back to you certain parts of the book? Only because they made me laugh. I'm not trying to, like, go, you said this. How dare you? How could you possibly say that?

Even though it's, you know, nearly 20 years later after you wrote the book. Just things that made me laugh. This is on sleeping with younger men. Some guys prefer older men, but that raises a whole series of other problems. Going to bed with them when you're pissed and horny is fine. But in the morning when they spring from beneath the duvet and prance about like an ad for some new product called Pert, I would lie there feeling like Michael Winner. And nobody, not even Michael Winner, wants to feel like that. He's dead. We're good. We're good. We're allowed. We're allowed. That's good. I like the fact that you put stuff in like that. Yet again,

my cock and heart had conspired to make a fool of me there's another line uh yeah i mean i feel like there's more sex in my books than there is in my life but do you i mean i've read one of your novels i read home stretch last year loved it oh thank you i'm i'm that's my favorite one since then i've read marion key's books and uh talked to her on this podcast as well isn't she lovely yeah very nice so it reminded me a little bit of the way that she writes i.e these very enjoyably plotted, a lot of characters, but all beautifully drawn. Also dealing with quite heavy themes throughout. Were you a fan of hers before you started writing your novels?

Yes, I had read a couple of Marion Keys. But I guess the comparison is because I set my books in Ireland, which I didn't think I would. Because I felt quite distant from Ireland and quite, you know, I live here. But because I didn't want to put myself in my books or remind people that bloke off the telly had written this book, I was trying to think of things you don't associate with me that I knew something about. And the last thing I knew anything about that might have some relevance to anybody else was Ireland in the 70s. So all my books are kind of variations on Ireland in the 70s. And how do you go about, and this is a very prosaic question, but I'm always fascinated by the actual process of creating a character, creating scenarios, lots of details. For example, towards the beginning of Homestretch, there's a scene in which a housewife is with her young children.

Lots of really nice specific observations about her routines, the actual products and all these things like so well observed. How do you go about creating scenes like that um i think that's the pleasure of writing that that weird thing that there is a this blank page and none of these people none of these places exist and then no matter how bad the book no matter how kind of off kilter it goes, it may not go where you want it to go. It may not turn out the way you wanted it to. But you have made that world, you know, just by typing on a page, by giving someone a name, by saying what age they are, the car they're driving. It just grows out.

You're saying you use your imagination what you mean you don't because because the thing is that if that was me and i was writing that type of thing i'd spend all the time googling stuff googling what products were around then and probably i do do some of that right okay yeah i. Yeah, I have done that, yeah. And also to kind of think what was a big film then or what was a, you know, who was the biggest star in the world at that point, that kind of thing. And then how do you go about, are you just sort of freestyling the structure of the thing as well and just telling a story the way that it comes to you? the thing as well and just telling a story the way that it comes to you or do you plot it out the way you might the arc of a tv series or something with all like post-its on the walls and i i haven't gone the post-it no but the first book um it was i was doing a book event for the must be for the life and loves uh of a heat of and i was at a book event and I met David Nichols one day and

and I said I was trying to write a novel and he said look structure it have a scaffolding it sounds really dull non-creative but trust me you'll be happy you have this structure and then you can get creative

within the scaffolding and so for the first book i did that uh and what does that look like is that like a page or no what happened what it meant was that i i mostly held it in my head um that it was i was writing a crime novel a kind of cozy crime novel but it just meant that you know a body. But it just meant that a body is discovered, then later on a second body is discovered, then the detective's life is endangered, and then it is all solved. Boom, boom, the end. And having that structure made me feel secure, particularly for a first novel. It made me feel kind of safe. And then in the other ones,

since then, I've never been that prescriptive again. But I've always kind of had beats. I've had, I've known, I've seen in the distance. There's some high land. Let's get to that. And that's the work when you're writing, is when you're walking across a featureless plane thinking I really need to get to those woods but you have to fill the time somehow you have to get the whole story over there and that's the tough bit Was there ever a point where you just ground to a halt

or did you keep marching on? I mean you are now quite prolific. Do you have two books coming out this year? Oh, no. Well, one is for a charity. One is for the reading agency. So it's for adult literacy. Right.

Which was really interesting. That, again, a really interesting challenge that you've got to write the story that isn't childish it's a story of an older woman actually but the writing has to be very simple you're only allowed to use a word with three syllables i think every two lines or something oh that's a good challenge you know it's really and at the beginning you feel like your hands are tied behind your back. And by the end of it, you think everything should be written like this. It's so clear. It's so direct. I loved it. Is that Forever Home? No, that's The Swimmer.

The Swimmer. Forever Home is the one I'm just finishing now. Okay. And yeah, it's a... We'll see. Yeah, it's a, it's a, we'll see. Do you like the process though? Because I meet very few writers who claim to actually enjoy the business of writing day to day.

They like it when it's all done. I guess I'm not a writer. That's why I like it. It's my hobby. You know, I was talking to Zadie Smith and I was finishing some book and she went, oh, God, you're so good. I can't write in the summer. I'm thinking, wow, that's amazing. Look at me.

I'm writing in the summer. Zadie Smith can write in the summer. Oh, that's right, because she's a writer. So she takes the summer off. I'm like picking grapes. It's my summer job. It's this thing that I do as a hobby. So, yes, go back to your question about, you know,

righteous block or grinding to a halt. I don't really have that luxury because if I've got some time to write this book, I better be writing this book because, you know, you know the name of it already. You know, I haven't typed the end yet. Okay. And you know what it's called and when it's coming out. It's available for pre-order. Yeah, that's quite scary. Yeah. Okay. And you know what it's called and when it's coming out. It's available for pre-order. Yeah, that's quite scary. Yeah.

So. Wow. So that gives a certain impetus to your writing. Yeah, definitely. We're halfway through the podcast. I think it's going really great. The conversation's flowing

like it would between a geezer and his mate. All right, mate. Hello, geezer. I'm pleased to see you. There's so much chemistry. It's like a science lab of talking. I'm interested in what you said. Thank you.

There's fun chat and there's deep chat. It's like Chris Evans is meeting Stephen Hawking. You talk about one of your characters, Finbar, moving to New York and getting a job as a bar back there. Is that something that you did as well? No, I didn't do that. Oh, OK. But I'm glad you thought I did. No, a friend of mine did do that and he worked in that bar, but it was very similar to bar, so it was based on it no i went to america first i went to san francisco oh that's right and i worked in a kind

of weird kind of pretentious cafe yeah it was called v de france and it was kind of bakery and deli uh in the financial district in in san francisco but yeah, you wouldn't put it in a book. That's early 80s. Early 80s, yeah. What made you head for San Francisco? I was heading for Los Angeles. But I'm such a dick. I mean, this is so pretentious 20-year-old.

So I didn't have a map of America. a 20 year old so i didn't have a map of america um so but i had a seven day bus pass on trailways which was the alternative there was greyhound and trailways i think greyhound still exists but trailways is gone anyway i was on trailways and uh i would just get these leaflets you know of the routes when i was in a bus station and so i knew that i was looking for routes going horizontally rather than vertically. If they were going vertically, that wasn't going to help me. So I was looking for horizontal routes. So basically, my bus pass ran out in San Francisco.

So I never got to LA. Okay. Yeah, that's why. But it was a happy accident because I don't know what I'd have done in LA. Yeah. Because I didn't know how to drive. L.A.'s a shithole. Come on.

And that was you chasing your acting dream? No, that was me getting out of Cork. Oh, okay. I wasn't chasing anything. I was running away. It was proper, yeah, it was running away. And also, were you, I think you're younger than I am, but maybe you had this in school. Did you do the pen pal thing when you were in school?

No. Well, I don't think so. I didn't do anything. We didn't even have exchange students or anything like that. Did you never do a foreign exchange? No. Did you? Yeah.

Where did you go? Oh, I went to Lille-de-Jardin. Oui. And could you speak French? Not when I got there. But the good thing is, because I am quite chatty, and they were really strict, they did not budge on the old Anglais. Yeah.

So I did learn how to speak French. And this skill has probably lasted better than speaking French. Learned how to eat cheese. Oh, okay. Because Gilles, for it was he, had come to stay with us. And my mother was terrified that this French boy was going to come and stay with us because she'd heard all these horror stories about they wouldn't eat anything. Anyway, Gilles arrived.

He ate everything put in front of him. So at the airport, I remember my mother, like really, she held my shoulders and she said, you eat everything. And so when I got to France, I was eating for Ireland. It was my,

I was representing the country in the Olympics of food. And fuck, they really pushed me. Like Tete de Vaux. Have you ever heard that? What's that? That is...

Head of... Chopped up bits of a calf's head in aspic. Like a bit of old nostril hanging out in jelly. It's like... I mean... Every day is like a bush tucker trial. No, seriously, it was like that. And like those cheeses that just smell of men's toilet. Were you just gagging, though? Oh, yeah. I'm a celebrity. No, it was like that. And like those cheeses that just smell of men's toilet.

Were you just gagging though, like, I'm a celebrity? No, it was. I would squirrel away bread during the meal. So when the cheese came out, I'd be able to kind of put the cheese in the bread and sort of smuggle it into my stomach past my taste buds. Yeah. But I can now eat cheese cheese and you can probably still speak a bit of french oh really no more than i can mate okay and so out to san francisco you go and i got you a kind of unimaginative present um did you really get me a present a themed present

do you like candles i love love candles. Oh, good. I struggled to think. What shall I get Graham? I was going to get you some champagne butter. Have you ever had that? No. Well, candle looks shit now. Well, but then I thought eating... It will just taste of butter, won't it?

No. Oh, you had it? It's unbelievable. Oh, Adam, don't tell me that. Well, because you don't tell me that. Well, because you don't know. Like, maybe you can't eat butter or maybe, I don't know, you know. So I thought candle.

You can't go wrong with a candle. Everybody loves candles. Yeah. And it's patchouli. From my hippie past. It's a nice one. Diptyque. Nice. And, yeah, from your hippie past. I was thinking, well, Graham's an old hippie past. It's a nice one. Diptyque. Nice. And yeah, from your hippie past.

I was thinking, well, Graham's an old hippie. Or at least he hung out with some old hippies. Yeah. They're really old hippies. Thank you so much. That's really kind of you. Thank you very much. Oh, man, thank you.

But now you're in a trap. This whole series, you're going to have to buy gifts for everyone. No, I think it's understood. It's like you've got to have a massive tv show and then i'll get you a gift well thank you i'm not looking at your horse in the mouth thank you very much all right but yes you ended up with the hippies and obviously having survived the french exchange experience you're kind of a robust character so you can take up with whoever you were not yourself a hippie right no i mean i led this kind of double life where once you're in the hippie commune you were

a hippie so i was that in the house and then i would go to work in the financial district and go to clubs and hang out with you know those sorts of people yeah how long were you with the hippies then a year a bit over a year okay yeah and i loved them yeah and they were so great for me because you know when you're young you're conservative with a small c you know everything a bit different is just stupid well that's ridiculous and so nearly everything i encountered in this hippie commune to me was ridiculous and stupid. But by the end, I loved them so much. And I thought, when I get back, I am not going to mock these people. Because it, I mean, it's not like shooting fish in a barrel. So you just, whatever. I mean, I wasn't going to live my life like that. life like that. But there was a lot of good in it. And it really opened up my tiny little closed Irish teenager mind. And it kind of gave me the rest of my life. Because I'd grown up in a system, and I don't mean to criticize my parents, but, you know, we were bred for failure.

You know, it was a lower your expectations. You know, I wouldn't bother dreaming. No, don't follow your dreams. And there must be a happy medium, I always think. Particularly for a parent, it must be so weird to try and manage your children's expectations because you don't want to limit them. You don't want to say, actually, your painting level is very poor. Your singing voice is not very pleasant. So you want to encourage them. But at the same time, I feel like, you know,

don't put every drawing on the fridge. You know, some of them aren't good enough. And I feel like there's a generation of people emerging who genuinely think they can do whatever they want and that can't end well also i guess i'm presuming that these early 80s san francisco hippies were a different breed to the more sinister mid-70s manson family type hippie i mean i guess they weren't really hippies, were they? Well, they were.

And there were some sinister hippies. Yeah. There was a place called the Carista Village nearby. And we would occasionally go there for a potluck picnic. We were in one called Stardance. It's changed its name now. I don't know what's happened to Carista Village, but it had a proper guru.

This guy ran it. had a proper guru this guy ran it and um and they had such strange rules you couldn't masturbate you weren't allowed to masturbate um i think you had to kind of save it all for the guru and uh then someone went on a trip once and sent back a postcard confessing that they had masturbated while on the trip. But while they'd been doing it, they thought of nature. They'd been thinking of trees and- They found a loophole. Yeah, lakes and things. So that became the new rule. You could masturbate. You could masturbate if you were thinking about nature. You could masturbate if you were thinking about nature.

Yeah. Early 80s. You move to London. I'm doing this like an actual interviewer now. It's good. Your fifth record, please. You move to London. You're attending the Central School of Speech and Drama.

And I don't care about that. I want to know about where you worked as a waiter because i was working as a bartender at the end of the 80s and i talked to marion keys about this because she was working in argyle street at the video cafe at the end of the 80s was she yeah or 86 thereabouts i never knew that yeah but i remember the video cafe in our girls i knew you would work there right yeah because everyone sort of knew everyone in the west end a little bit because everyone would go around drinking and you go i worked for the my kind of town chain so we went to we used to hang out at break for the border and i was at chicago pizza pie factory and i was a bartender at henry j beans for a while and all these places oh And everyone would just hang around and meet after hours

and get hammered and have a great, great time. You talk about the fact that towards the end of your experience in catering, you went to a dark place. Yes. The stockroom? That's my joke in the question there. I wouldn't do that. No.

I mean, how long did you do it for? Off and on, about five or six years. Yeah, that's long enough. Yeah, yeah. I ended up doing it for eight. Okay. And when it started, I was so good. I was so bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and I was good at it. You know, I was good at the service industry and I was nice to people and I was able to suck it up if they weren't nice to me.

And then just – it's not just that the job is hard. It's the fact that it's not what you want to be doing. You're doing it because you want to do something else. And the longer you're not doing that other thing, you're doing this job, the more bitter and resentful you become. And also, you know, dealing with customers is terrible, just awful. Can be. And so, yes, I got out just in time before I killed somebody. Were you at several places or did you spend a long time at one place?

I only worked in three, I think. I worked in Smith's, which is now Belgo Central, just in Covent Garden there on Earlham Street. And then I worked in a place called Melange, which is now gone. It was on Endell Street. And then I worked in The Eagle, which is still there on Farringdon Road, which I cycled past today. Oh, that's a cool place.

Yeah, well, I was there. My friends Mike Belbin and David Eyre opened that. And so I would do some work there. And that's where I started my comedy, was in the gallery. There's a gallery space above the pub. And I would do Mother Ther Teresa of Calcutta up there. And then that got taken to Edinburgh.

Right. And so that wrenched you out of your dark place. It really did. And also what wrenched me out of a dark place was I can't remember whether I got fired or whether it shut down. Or certainly they got to a very low ebb in terms of business, Melange. So I know I wasn't working there anymore. So basically it forced me to make the comedy work and to, you know, because my acting career wasn't going anywhere. And of course, it's terrible advice.

And I'm so glad I'm not a parent. But, you know, to make this this work it's kind of important not to have a plan b because you'd never stick with your crappy plan a of this life if you had a plan b you know after about a year and a half you'd go time to crack open plan B. Whereas if you don't have that, you muddle through and you deal with all the disappointment and the rejection and the hopelessness and all your friends kind of going, really? You still think that might happen? And if you do stick with it, it can happen. Or a version of it will happen. Blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah Ooh Conversations I really love talking to you so much now did you hear my stomach going then no okay No. Okay. Late lunch, no lunch.

No lunch. No lunch. Because. Rookie error. That is a rookie error, isn't it? Yeah. So when did you figure that out? Have you ever had stomach grumbles on a taping or anything?

Oh, yeah. My stomach, I vomited in the middle of a taping. When did you vomit? Well, I nearly vomited quite recently, but I didn't. I held it down. But I was doing my chat show quite a few years ago and it was i remember it was gabriel burn was on and leticia dean oh yes from eastenders yeah and it was she and i was in the audience doing a sort of audience item and i was standing on the steps doing a bit to autocue and i was thinking oh i don't feel very well i and i'm reading the thing and i'm thinking

can i get to the end of this i think i can just get to the end of this and then i really need to stop and then i just said to it oh excuse me everyone And went around the back. And, I mean, some sound person has the sound somewhere of me just exploding. Whoa. Like vomit at the back. But then, you know, you come back on and finish the show, don't you? Trooper. Yeah. Come back when you're vomiting.

Stomach growl. Yeah, that's hardcore. What about, I was interested to know about your other routines and how they have changed. Are there other things that you do now before a show, for example, that you've learned to do over the years that make the show go better? When I started doing stand-up, I had some shoes I always wore, kind of lucky shoes. And then one day I didn't wear them. And it's all right. And again, it's a bit like knowing you can tell lies.

It was quite liberating thinking, fuck the lucky shoes. And so there was a particular cologne I would always wear before doing the chat show. And then one day wasn't there. I forgot it or something. And that spell was broken. So the only proper routine I do now is my glass of wine. I always have a glass of wine. Is that Graham Norton brand?

It might be. Oh, actually, yes. The stuff I drink drink is i think the guests probably drink something that's new zealand wine new zealand with your name on it yeah and you're going and over and over and over again you are blending blending i like wine yeah so you know it doesn't feel like a a stretch no and you got pink gin the gin's from. No. And you've got pink gin. The gin's from Skibbereen. We've got pink gin, regular gin, and now we've just launched, thanks for asking, see, I should have brought your present. Yeah. We've just launched marmalade gin.

Whoa, I'm having marmalade gin. I know. You enjoyed it on toast. Now enjoy it as a toast. Nice. Thank you. Have you ever had a little too much to drink before a show? No.

I remember going on a date once with this guy. And he seemed very nervous. I mean, like sweaty and nervous. And we'd met at some sort of charity function. And we went on this date. And I was saying, you know, who were you at the charity thing with? Oh, my friend. And his friend

was a journalist. And then as the date went on, she'd obviously given him a list of questions. Ask Graham Norton these questions when you're on this date. But he was very,

very bad at it. So he'd be going, you know, do you have any brothers and sisters? I have a sister she's older than me have you ever been drunk for your horror show I think that's one of the questions from your friend

but anyway the question is no as I said to him because you'd have to start drinking like really very early to be drunk before because the show starts taping at seven o'clock. Yeah. So and I'm, you know, I'm there for the afternoon. So I suppose the reason you would drink too much is if you were nervous, though. But you but do you not get I mean, you know that you can do it now.

So I guess you don't get nervous. Well, the point of the wine is about nerves. Yeah. Because when I was doing shows or things, I would get very nervous. And even when I was doing stand-up, you know, I would have a drink on stage with me, and it works for me. And that glass of wine you see on the show is the glass of wine I carry on to set. I don't finish it and I carry it off. You know, so it is it's literally a prop, but it's also a nice little comfort thing.

And if I'm ill or an antibiotics or something, I will have apple juice just so the guests think I am drinking. Right. And the audience think I am drinking. Right. And the audience think I'm drinking. Is it a policy then to encourage the guests to drink, to loosen them up? We don't encourage it. We offer them a drink. Right. Because that seems polite. You know, would you like a drink on set?

Because look at the old lush. He's having one. And sometimes people come on, you know, they go, no, no, it's water. And then they come on and they see everyone else has a drink. And they go, oh, sorry, is it too late to get a drink? Yeah, yeah. Of course you can have a drink. The only time it goes wrong, the drinking, is that thing that, you know, I'm not able to do, is if somebody's been drinking prior to the show.

Right. Then the drink we give them could be the one that pushes them over the edge uh but that rarely happens occasionally at the end of the show you're thinking i'm glad our my show is over and i'm glad i'm not with you for the rest of your night because it's it's not going in a great direction. Where do you tape it? Now we're over in the old BBC, you know, the donut building. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to ask a favor

that I think you may be able to help me out with about the chat show, which is, can I please never be a guest? Even if I become like accidentally super famous in the mainstream, if I'm like in a Marvel film and they want me to do the junket. No. Why? Because I would be one of the people. I've heard you talking about the guests that come on and they're like, oh, I watch the show.

This will be fun. And they turn up and then they go, why is it? This show is not as good as it normally is. And it's because they're on it. That's what you said. It is funny, those people, that you would see them kind of going, it's just it's not so good tonight. Yeah, that's right. That would be me.

I would just freeze and I get this kind of rictus grin. And all I can do, I'm just listening to everything everyone is saying and i'm i'm really laughing and my brain just totally empties it's like i hear a flushing sound as soon as the red light goes on and that's it i've got nothing but you do do shows no not really i do i used to do um dictionary corner on eight out of 10 Cats Does Countdown. And that was fine as soon as Jimmy Carr would look over every now and again and sort of hopefully say, you know,

what do you think of that, Adam? Kind of thing. It's like, you know, if you want to do a joke here, off you go. And I would literally say, I've got nothing. Thinking, the first time I said I've got nothing because I did say it more than once i thought maybe the audience would laugh but they didn't laugh they just felt they could smell my fear okay and that's the thing like people they it's a stink isn't it but also that environment

like proper working stand-ups yeah yeah got jokes and i mean that's brutal yes but what do you do though when you have a guest and you can smell the reek of fear um what's funny is i forget you know because i do it all the time and i forget that it could be an intimidating environment. Because, you know, I don't think I'm intimidating. And, you know, the audience are lovely and nothing bad is going to happen. I'm not going to ask you any hard questions. You know, you're not going to lose money. There isn't a cash prize at the end that you might get.

It's lovely. I tell you you're brilliant in the thing that you're in, no matter what the evidence to the contrary is. And, you know, somebody's put some makeup on you. How nice. And then some nights I'm there and I look across and I go, oh, no, they're so scared. Yeah, faces twitching. Yeah. And you can tell they're just they're thinking, I'm not speaking, I'm not speaking. Of course, now it's too late for my pep talk because if I'd noticed beforehand, you can give someone a pep talk and kind of go, one, don't be afraid of speaking because if you say something terrible, we'll cut it out. Right. But also, don't be afraid of silence either because that won't be in, if you know what I mean.

We're not going to cut to you not speaking. We'll cut to you when you talk. So you will be fine. And also, you will get your moment. you are or how on dazzling your personality might be there will be the moment when we turn to you and kind of go now new book blah blah blah and you've done a pre-interview right somebody has okay i like it when you tee them up for the anecdote and they can't remember what it was they're like what was what no why i like when i tee them up for the anecdote and then they tell a different one.

I love that because then it's an anecdote I don't know. I don't know what this story is. I don't know where we're going with it. And I like the way they seem so surprised that I want them to tell it. It's like, well, I would be surprised because we didn't want you to tell this. But we're, you know, fine that you are. And how about when you have seen a film that they're promoting or a book or an album or whatever it is, and you really didn't like it? Do you just tough it out and totally pretend you did? Or do you just think, oh, no, I can't lie.

I can't betray my principles of taste. I must just be vague. No, you tell everyone it's brilliant. Tell everyone it's brilliant. You know, my opinion is meaningless, you know, because I like everything. And then I guess you have to be careful not to say things like, and I really liked it. Like, I genuinely like it. And I do sometimes do that.

Okay, right. I do sometimes do that, yeah. So that's when we know that's the clue. But also what's so stupid is that the publicists or the studios or whatever insist that I see all the films. It is so much easier to talk to someone about a film you haven't seen because then there's potential. There's potential in the air that maybe it's not a big pile of shit. Maybe, although it sounds very odd, so you pay a man with four feet. You play feet for hands.

Interesting. So we can look each other in the eye yeah whereas if they know i've seen it it's like we've had sex and one of us owes the other money or something it's a weird awkwardness and i have to look at them and i think it was was it jessica chastain once she was it was the show was over and i just said that Tom Hiddleston was on the next week in some film that she was also in. She was on promoting a different film, but next week Tom Hiddleston was on. And so she was leaving the set and I said something,

oh, and I saw the blah, blah, blah that you were in. And she went, oh, I'm so bad in that. And I went, oh, you know, it's all right. She went, no, I play a bad person. And I was like, busted. That's what I meant. Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Sometimes there are moments on the show that make the edit that, well, I guess everyone's going to respond differently to certain things.

But there are moments where I'm just like, no, it's through the finger moments. You know what I mean? So you mentioned Tom Hiddleston. I mean, Hiddleston doing De Niro to De Niro was very much a through the fingers moment in Castle Buckles. He is like, I should preface this, obviously, by saying what an actor the guy is. He's a magnificent actor. What an admirable degree of confidence that takes. De Niro seemed to find it funny.

He wasn't. Was he? Was he okay with it? Well, I mean, it's one of those things. It must be like having a catchphrase being Robert De Niro, walking through life as Robert De Niro. People must do you to you all the time. I mean, waiters in restaurants, cab drivers. I imagine... Not to De Niro, though. You would be scared, wouldn't you? Would you? I don't know.

I just think you do, like... I mean, generally, you shouldn't really do impressions to people's faces. Yes, I think as a general showbiz rule, it's not a great idea. Showbiz or anywhere else in the world i think it's an odd thing but de niro it's like wow you picked the guy from taxi driver to do an impression to who's like known as a fairly you know he's not a giggly guy no he's not i mean he's very benign right i think because he plays kind of doer threatening people uh you kind of think he's not. I mean, he's very benign. Right. I think because he plays kind of doer, threatening people, you kind of think he's more frightening than he is. And so there is something intimidating about having him sat there.

He has an energy. But then you realize it's a benign energy. Okay. Actually, he's just enjoying himself. He's looking around, you know. Once on our show, he was having such a nice time, he did try to tell an anecdote. And we had to cut it out because he did that thing of just losing his way in his own story. And was it August? I can't remember.

But I was in the place where, no, were they? No, I think no. And it was one of those stories. Were they? No, I think no. And it was one of those stories. And it started quite strong because something about this story he thought was going to work, was going to fit into the conversation. And then it just dribbled away to nothing. And that's why Robert De Niro doesn't tell anecdotes. He's just not very good at it.

Especially if he's got Tom Hiddleston doing an impression of him. He'd just get Tom Hiddleston to tell the anecdote instead. You could have given him the bullet points. No, but you're right. There is a level of confidence about that that's sort of breathtaking. Yes, it is breathtaking. I mean, there are there are worse things than that on a cutting room floor

are there yes that's all I'll tell you there's I can't name any names but there's like when I finally retire I will have to go into the you know the big bin of edits and there's one particular thing I want

to keep with me forever. And oddly, it is someone doing an impression. Oh, really? Yeah. And it's so bad. It's amazing. Is it a Brit? No.

Do they have, I mean, how come it doesn't get out? Do the audience have to sign NDAs then? No. No. No. I mean, because describing it to someone would never be what it was. Okay. And how long it went on for.

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Yes. Continue. What if you do got me boxed in? I'm not gonna put you down. Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was Graham Norton, of course. Very grateful to Graham for his time. And no, I didn't find out what the name of the actor who did those excruciating impressions was. I didn't actually ask Graham. Didn't seem appropriate. I thought, well, he would have told me if he felt comfortable.

Who do you think it was? I'm guessing Chris Pine. I don't think it was Chris Pine. But I've just been immersed in the world of Chris Pine this week because I was doing a bug show last week in London. Thank you if you came along. And in the course of putting that show together, there's a lot of Googling and a lot of searching through the

internet and youtube for various bits and pieces so i was exposed to spit gate the yeah whole spit gate um hoo-ha you know about spit gate right or do you i don't know you see this is the thing i have got no idea to what extent people know about things like spit gate because i'm not on social media anymore so my compass is way off certainly the audience at the bfi seemed underwhelmed when I started riffing on Spitgate. I had a small section in the presentation that was a short overview of the Spitgate phenomenon and the response on YouTube, particularly comments from YouTubers beneath videos that claimed to show, uh, who's the guy, Jacob Singlebrush,

Johan Troubadour, what the fuck is his name, Harry Styles. And he was at a premiere for this film, Don't Worry Darling, directed by Olivia Wilde, that Stiles and Chris Pine and other stars from the movie have been on the promotional trail for. I'm giving you an overview of Spitgate here. You're probably groaning like the audience at Bug. So there's a lot of backstory which I'm not going to go into

about possible tensions between director and cast and blah blah blah. But this bit of footage of Harry Styles at a premiere of the film, I think in Venice, arriving to take his seat, shot by a member of the audience on their phone, sitting nearby. Stiles comes, takes his seat. Chris Pine has already sat down. And there's a split second when Stiles moves his body in a certain way, kind of leans over Chris Pine before sitting down, adjusting his jacket and sitting down, where it looks as if he might have just gone and spat into Chris Pine's lap. But the thing that sells the idea that he spat

is Chris Pine's look, which is perfectly timed. It looks as if he's following this gob of spit down into his lap and then just going, oh my God, did that just happen? Looking up with a kind of bemused grin as if he is just amazed that something so appalling could have happened in public. Harry Styles sitting down looking totally innocent. Harry Styles sitting down looking totally innocent. Anyway, the thing about the video is that it's absolutely obvious he didn't spit at Chris Pine. But this is a point of controversy on the internet.

And people are getting genuinely furious about it. I'm sure some of them are pretending to be genuinely furious. But others are absolutely in a 100 genuine lava so i did a couple of silly videos and a song written from harry style's point of view about why he did spit in chris pine's lap and things like that audience at the bfi did not lose their minds over it. I would say the response was muted. And there could be several reasons for that. Reason one, they may just not have found my take on the whole thing very funny. Reason two, they could have felt that it was all a bit late or even very late. Spitgate blew up, as far as I'm aware, as a viral phenomenon about three or even four weeks ago now.

Reason three, the majority of the audience may actually not have known anything about Spitgate because they move in more elevated media circles. They might not have made it onto their news radar. You know what I mean? Reason four, they did know about Spitgate, but thinking about it or commenting on it was so far beneath them,

especially with so many other serious things happening in the world, that they assumed it would be beneath me too. Wrong. I mean, obviously it is very trivial compared to everything else in the world, whether Johnny Sagebrush gobbed in Blondie Lionhair's lap. in Blondie Lion Hair's lap. But it didn't stop a lot of very passionate speculation on YouTube,

and that was what I was trying to share with the audience. Anyway, it made me laugh. Spitgate detour. Graham Norton, very grateful to him. I really do recommend his books he's a great storyteller and if you like Marion Key's work I think you'll also get a kick out of Graham's books hey speaking of books

I wanted to give you a recommendation for a book I've been enjoying recently also related to the podcast, because it is by past podcast guest John Higgs. Earlier this year, you may have heard the episode I did with writer John Higgs, and at the end of our conversation, he said that he was working on a book about James Bond and the Beatles. And my interview with him was recorded almost exactly a year ago. So he was working on that. Anyway, the book is now out. It's called Love and Let Die.

Bond, the Beatles and the British Psyche. And John's thesis in this book is that you can see the conflict between British working class liberation versus establishment control and sort of old school establishment values illustrated in many elements that make up the Beatles and their music and Ian Fleming's James Bond franchise and John's approach to the whole thing his thesis as it were turns out to be a brilliant way of shedding new light on a couple of British cultural phenomena that have been written about a lot. And whether you agree with John's thesis or not,

it's a really entertaining and thought-provoking book that weaves together elements of psychology and social history, as well as some good deep-level trivia. Right, that's sort of it for this week, I think. I'm going to get back and check on Rosie. I'm aware that in the last episode of the podcast with Anil Seth, I said that I was going to post a Dozy Rosie video of her on the sofa in 4K, I think I promised.

Well, obviously I haven't done that yet, but I will. I promise. I mean, it's just a sort of fluffy blob on a sofa that doesn't move for quite a long time. But it's relaxing. And you can hear the sound of my son playing the piano in the background.

You know, might take your mind off things for a little bit. OK, thanks very much indeed to Rachel Holmberg and the staff at the Universal Building in London who made us very welcome for our recording. Thanks very much indeed, as ever, to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his invaluable production support. Thanks to Helen Green. She does the artwork for this podcast.

Thanks finally, and most of all, to you for coming back and listening right the way through to the end i do appreciate it until we're next together take excellent care autumnal hug how about it hey good seeing you oh um i nearly forgot i love you. Bye! Bye. I say goodbye, whatever. Thank you.