THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.191 - LORNA TUCKER

Episode Date: October 23, 2022

Adam talks with British film maker Lorna Tucker about her documentary profile of fashion designer Vivienne Westwood and how she felt when Westwood publicly disowned it. Lorna also explains how she found herself homeless as a teenager and the struggle with addiction that ensued; experiences that informed her new documentary Someone's Daughter, Someone's Son, which considers what can be done to better tackle homelessness.This episode was recorded face to face on 17th October, 2022Thanks to Rachel, Tom and the staff at the Universal building who made us welcome for our recording Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support.Podcast artwork by Helen GreenRELATED LINKSTHE BIG ISSUEThe Big Issue Group is a social enterprise whose mission is to create innovative solutions that unlock social and economic opportunities for people trapped in poverty. Find your local Big Issue vendor or buy a subscription HEREST MUNGO'S - ENDING HOMELESSNESS, REBUILDING LIVESRough sleeping can become a relentless cycle that’s incredibly difficult to escape from. St Mungo’s is one of the only organisations whose frontline workers are out, every night, to bring people in from the streets.THE CONNECTIONThe Connection at St Martin’s works with people sleeping rough to move away from, and stay off, the streets of London. We with them as they recover from life on the streets and move towards a meaningful, fulfilling future away from homelessness and into shelter.SHELTERFor someone at risk of homelessness, our support and advice can be the difference between finding emergency accommodation or spending a night in their car.Shelter's campaigning work can mean the difference between being powerless or seeing legislative changes to fight unfair evictions, rogue landlords and dangerous housing. LORNA LINKSWESTWOOD: PUNK, ICON, ACTIVIST Directed by Lorna Tucker - 2018 (MUBI)VIVIENNE WESTWOOD TO WORK WITH QUEENS OF THE STONE AGE - 2008 (YOUTUBE)AMÁ TRAILER - 2018 (VIMEO)OVID (STREAMING PLATFORM WHERE YOU CAN WATCH AMÁ)OTHER LINKSADAM ON YOUTUBEUNION CHAPEL CHARITY SHOW - NOVEMBER 24th 2022CAN I HAVE MY BALL BACK? By Richard Herring - 2022 (GO FASTER STRIPE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how are you doing, podcats? This is Adam Buxton here.

I'm reporting to you from a soggy farm track where I'm out walking with my best dog friend, Rosie. How are you, dog? Yeah, fine, OK, yeah. I got a nice message from a listener, Podcat. Will, a veterinarian, who said, maybe take Rosie to the vet just to check she hasn't got corns. That might be the reason she's sometimes reluctant to come for walks these days.

Good thought, Will. The team at Castle Buckles is going to action that. And we'll let you know. But Rosie seems fine at the moment, I'm glad to say. And I'm not too bad. I hope you're doing well. It is a grey day out here. What a grey day. In East Anglia, Britain, the current political laughingstock of the world.

I like to listen to the New York Times podcast, current affairs podcast. It's called The Daily. And they covered the resignation of liz truss the other day which gave host michael barbaro he of the unusual noises doesn't do them quite as much as he used to anyway normally he's quite serious. But when he was covering the Liz Truss resignation situation, he and New York Times reporter Mark Landler had a rare opportunity to sound relaxed and jovial. Let's see if I can pull it up here on my phone.

Hey, Mark. Hey, Michael. How you doing? I mean, good Lord, what a hot mess that country is. It's really amazing. A hot mess. It's usually your department, Rosie. I'm a dog.

Hey, maybe you could run for Prime Minister, Rosie. You'd probably do a better job. Prime Minister Rosie. You'd probably do a better job. OK, let me tell you a little bit about podcast number 191, which features a conversation with British filmmaker Lorna Tucker. I watched Lorna's film Westwood, punk icon activist about the fashion designer Vivienne Westwood, when it was shown on BBC Two back in 2019.

And afterwards, I looked up who directed it and read about Lorna. I read that she had made another film called Ama, A-M-A, about the sterilisation programme that targeted Native American women in the 1960s and 70s. I also read that Lorna was working on a film about the time that she spent living on the streets of London as a teenager for roughly 18 months, all told, an experience that left her struggling with addiction

and understandably traumatised. Eventually her mother tracked her down and Lorna began the process of getting her life back together. Along the way, Lorna found herself working as a fashion model, as well as working in a few trendy kind of pubs and bars in London. Experiences that brought her into contact with media, fashion and music people, some of whom gave her opportunities that helped her cut her teeth as a filmmaker. Ian Asprey, lead singer of The Cult, was one of the people that took Lorna under their wing and

allowed her to jump on a tour bus and film behind-the-scenes footage with the band. For the next few years, Lorna worked on tour videos and promos for bands while writing her own scripts, taking runner jobs in production houses and continuing to hone her filmmaking skills. It was while she was filming with the band Queens of the Stone Age that Lorna first encountered fashion designer Vivienne Westwood, who was providing vocals for a track by the band Queens of the Stone Age that Lorna first encountered fashion designer Vivian Westwood who was providing vocals for a track by the band. Lorna told Westwood about her AMA project which Westwood found interesting. The pair struck up a friendship which led to Vivian Westwood allowing Lorna to start filming her for another documentary project.

Vivienne wanted the doc to focus solely on her environmental activism, but Lorna was adamant that it should take a wider view of Westwood's life and work, which Lorna had only recently discovered herself and wanted to express her enthusiasm for. This point of tension between director and subject comes through in the finished film, which was a deliberate choice on Lorna's part. It makes for a highly entertaining documentary with many insightful moments about Westwood's work and the making of biographical docs in general, and overall it was very well received. But some some particularly in the fashion world were frustrated by Lorna's approach. Whatever the responses Lorna's film about Vivienne Westwood enabled her to continue making films and building on achievements which would be impressive if her life had always run

smoothly but are even more extraordinary I think given where she'd been just a few years earlier. My conversation with Lorna was recorded earlier this month in London's King's Cross area, where I think I've recorded the last few podcasts in this current run, and we spoke about a new film that Lorna recently completed, although it's not out until next year, I think. But it's about the problem of homelessness and it's called Someone's Daughter, Someone's Son. And in the course of talking about that,

I asked Lorna about the reasons that she herself came to be living on the streets in the early 2000s at the age of just 15. I'll be back after my conversation with Lorna for a couple of recommendations for you, but right now, with Lorna Tucker, here we go. Ramble Chat, let's have a ramble chat We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that

Come on, let's chew the fat. And have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, and she was okay with the idea initially was she or was she did she immediately express reservations about the idea absolutely yeah first of all she was like no way and then i was like well no i think there's so much to be inspired with everything you're doing. And we can set the film today and we go back in time. But, you know, and we'll make sure we talk about your activism. I was like, but the film will change as we're filming it. And she was just like, absolutely no.

And then it was like, actually, why don't you come in and we'll talk about it. And it was just a very slow process. And then one day it was like, OK, well, where's your camera then? You know, are you going to film it? So as we started filming, it became apparent very quickly that, you know, I turn up and everyone had their act on. You know, it was like everyone was behaving in a very controlled way. So I realized pretty quickly I had to become everyone's friends. I had to embed myself there and I have to to come pretty much you know daily to film until

people could get used to me and I still believe to this very day the film I made of her is the most honest portrait that it was made with absolutely nothing but admiration for her and wanting to use her story to inspire a whole generation of of kids that won't be able to afford to go to college, won't be able to afford to go to art school or go the usual route in that might feel there's not a place for them. And hers is the ultimate story of overcoming to find their place in the world. I mean, all that comes across. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was great.

And I was surprised to hear that it was your debut documentary because it was very sort of assured and I assumed that she would have liked it because it had an edge to it it wasn't just a hagiography there were bits in there which made her look like hard work and a bit of an arsehole sometimes you know what I mean but? But it was balanced, more than balanced, by all the amazing stuff that she's done and continues to do. So, you know, and I liked all that stuff of her sitting there squirming when you would ask her about the old days. And she'd say, oh, it's so boring to say all this. I'm totally barred about talking about it. I don't want to talk about it.

It was fun, you know, and crackly. And they're quite harsh with you on camera you keep some of those bits as well there are moments where they're clearly irritated by you being around and what's the name of vivian's partner andreas andreas crontala is that right is that how you say his name and uh he is he's the artistic director right and collaborator of vivian and of the brand the westwood brand and he i liked him a lot because he's got a funny he's got a good accent he's got a great sense of humor yeah my favorite scene was him getting upset about some socks that was my favorite scene to edit because there were so many points me and paul the editor were like we're gonna they're gonna make us take it out

you know we go we're gonna you know even the producers or maybe even you know amazon like they're not gonna let us it's a bit indulgent you know but it i thought it paid off and it just summarized those moments in fashion. Leading up to a collection, it's high octane, high pressure. This to them is everything. And then the show's over and then they start again. And it's this cycle of insanity. And so you want to show that pressure and you want to show it.

I had so much fun making that scene. But I have so much admiration for Andreas and Vivian yeah I think that was the hardest thing when Vivian said she didn't like it is that I felt that she had inspired me so much to embrace being different and she'd really taught me to just be myself and embrace that and this was the first film where I'd really embraced that and then she was so like a mama bear really slapped me around the face you know by pushing me away and and slagging it off and it got a little bit hairy you know like people were saying in a family to give the footage back it was like but I shot all that footage like I made the film but then also she was never gonna like like it. And she, that's her, isn't it? I did get told by quite a few people close to her that she'd worked with many moons ago,

that whatever I did, she would never like it. Yeah. And I had two choices. I either had to stand firm and make a film that I was proud of or make the film she wanted me to make. And it was down to me what choice I made. The socks stay in. the socks stay in the socks stay in and they did everything I ask you is not done they had no socks on I don't know why people don't go downstairs and get some socks from the shop they're downstairs one flat of stairs down

there's some socks it was my favorite thing to quote for a long time. My favourite is the... It's just thick. It's just thick, he says at one point. It's useless. I love that the... What was going on in the background, the hand motion. It was just...

You just couldn't make it up. Pepe, his assistant, he's catching it as well. Pepe's gold. Like, I love Pepe. Like, he, for me, was just the most magical person to be around. Yeah. Like I said, everyone just had the best sense of humor. Well, it was good. I mean, you really did not stitch them up. They were funny and there were ludicrous moments. But you had invested a lot in the Westwood film in all sorts of ways.

I mean, when your, was it your daughter that was born during the production? Oh, yes, it was. So I had a son just before I started filming and then had a daughter in between. I know, I need to stop popping out babies every time I do a film. It's getting embarrassing now. People are making me sign sort of way, like, oh, well, you will not have a child in the middle of making this film.

It was, and it was hard. And you named her, you gave her the name vivian that's one of her names right well yeah vivian like i said for me she was so inspiring and i learned so much through her because i really didn't have much confidence when i started doing the film i had really bad teeth and so i'd put my hand over my mouth when i was talking or laughing and she would always call me up on it and I learned to just you know really you know put your shoulders up speak straight look me in the eyes and she really and after it was like this dorm mom you know like after a couple of years of filming I

found that I really did hold myself differently and I spoke differently and I and I would speak up um and also you know yeah she inspired me and and I had Lola and I called Lola Vivian because of making the film and being so inspired by her. So there was some sort of something slightly maternal going on there and an authority figure. It's funny, isn't it, how sometimes those what you might characterize as fairly traditional, even conservative values, certainly the ones that my parents had when I was growing up. But they sometimes intersect unexpectedly with those punk ethics and values, don't they? It's weird. So it must have been crushing when she was so dismissive and public when the film came out. It was at the time. It was at the time. And actually,

I've had several experiences like that with just documentaries anyway, you know, when they finish and people are always going to not like them. But that was my first, you know, and you're going to have things are going to get personal at some point. And and but that was my first experience of it. And I did take it very personally and I remember you know I found out about the tweet her PR had put out the minute I came off stage after the premiere at Sundance and I and it did really upset me and I was like well what do I do you know and but I also got texts from people that we both knew that were really supportive and do you mind if I quote the tweet of course you can um it says and this is from the company account yes the vivian westwood documentary set for release this year westwood punk icon activist has been made and produced by a third party and as it stands isn't endorsed by vivian westwood lorna tucker asked to film vivian's activism and followed her around for a couple of years but there's not even five minutes of activism in the film instead not true by the way I know her whole life is one

there's more also straightforwardly there's there's a whole great section in there um anyway instead there's lots of old-fashioned footage which is free and available to view online it's a shame because the film is mediocre and Vivian and Andreas are not so that's fairly unequivocal slam down yeah but what do you what are you gonna do you know like I said I filmed it very passionately for many years which is makes up the majority of the film I wouldn't even read it out to you if you a didn't seem okay with it and b if it wasn't it's not true it's a really good film and I imagine that there's some part of her that likes some aspect of it but as we've said it's not true it's a really good film and I imagine that there's some part of her that likes some aspect of it but as we've said it's not in her nature to embrace something like that

even hearing you read it out it's really funny because it does take you back because it's the first time yeah I'd ever dealt with someone going no I don't like you know like it was my first experience of having a feature documentary come out. And for years I dreamed of having a film that would come out of Sundance. And sometimes I felt like I was deluded because I was chasing this dream and wanting to be a filmmaker. But it always just was out of reach. And it was only through, you know, Westwood and Amma both got picked up around the same time. And so I was filming both and editing both.

And it felt like I was finally arriving. Like I was finally, you know, I was sitting editing Westwood at Molineux, smoking a roll up on the bench I used to smoke a roll up on when I was a runner there, dreaming that one day I'd be editing a film there that might possibly come out at a festival like Sundance. So for me me it was like I was finally there and I just felt like I was I was so proud of you know I hadn't taken a day off

after having the kids I'd lived in hostels I'd fucking worked hard for it and then all of a sudden the only thing people wanted to talk about was what Vivian had said and how did I feel and what did and I was just so it I took it really personally but then I also you know I mean it was kind of great publicity it was great that's the other thing it seems like it seems like a leaf out of the Malcolm McLaren playbook this is perfect for the film everyone's going to be talking about this this is just exactly what we need it was well there were people that asked me that is this something you guys have been working on yeah I was like I wish I wouldn't be so upset but you like I said it did pretty quickly I did kind of go right I've just got to brush this off right so it didn't take the wind out

of yourselves for too long no and it through working on Westwood and Amma and all this stuff I'd finally grown confident enough to write as well so it kind of like my career started snowballing in a really positive way afterwards but even now there's still like a part of me that would just love to go for a cup of tea with her and have her tell me to stop mumbling again but wow this time so briefly your modeling career was something that happened once you had got yourself off the streets. Yeah. So I got off the streets and I had my daughter and she you know was complete wonderful little being so being pregnant was the spur to get you clean was it yeah yeah absolutely and from there you know I was doing lots of mad jobs and just trying to survive really and I got

scouted uh to model with my push chair with my little baby and I was entered into a couple of modeling competitions through select models and didn't win came third but that got me signed to a modeling agency and that was where everything changed for me because prior to that the life I'd led and where I grew up there was there was no I had no idea what you could be I didn't know you could be an artist as a woman I didn't know there was a whole world out there that I could be a photographer or a filmmaker or I could paint pictures and have them in galleries like it was very kind of like footballer's wife hairdresser you know um Where did you grow up?

Watford. I'm a Watford girl. I need to embrace that. But there was no aspirations and I didn't fit in. I had trouble at school focusing, attention problems. I couldn't, I found it very hard learning to read and write. And then I, you know, was was groomed got in with a gang so I'd had this real kind of like traumatic naughty childhood and I just and so when I had my daughter and I wanted to get out I wanted to get out Watford I wanted to escape I didn't really

have any friends and I wanted I wanted to find that thing that I would fall in love with. And the great thing about being scouted to model was it just got me out. You know, I got to go to Paris, you know, with my daughter on tow. And I got to see beautiful French women in elegant clothing. And I got to shoot and wear bonkers clothing. I was sent to Detroit to be the model for Levi's campaigns. And from being on the dole and having nothing, I had some money in my bank. And during this process, I'd started to write. And I'd started to write diaries.

And I had this book that someone who I was on the streets with had given me. And he always wanted to be a poet. And he was always writing poetry. And he'd give me this book. And I took it with me when I was modeling. And I was like, I know, I'm going to be a poet. That's always writing poetry and he'd give me this book and I took it with me when I was modeling and I was like I know I'm going to be a poet that's what I'm going to do and it really gave me this sense of like seeing another world that I didn't know existed but the problem with that is I hadn't had any proper therapy or support you know I'd literally

been a cheeky tyke who was running from something just running running from the streets trying to hope nobody would find out I'd been homeless I was scared that the modeling agency might find out I'd been a heroin addict you know I was trying to just be like everyone else but it felt like everyone else could sense there was something I was hiding and you're plunged into this world which holds many dangers for people who go into it and uh lots of people end up being casualties of the modeling world and the fashion world massively because it's just not very good for your mental health you know up until getting scouted i had always been made to feel i was ugly you know i didn't look like the other girls i didn't have big boobs like the other

girls like i said where i grew up people wanted to be a footballer's wife or a glamour model and I was tall gangly no boobs you know dodgy prison tattoos and it was you know I didn't quite fit in and then all of a sudden I'm modeling and people are saying actually I need to be thinner so although I was doing quite well and I was kind of building my way up I really started to kind of and the more I was trying to hide who I was and scared that people would find out the more I drink and the more I found the temptations in those you know arenas of being expected to go to events and parties and there were bands around that were smoking heroin in the loos which normal people probably wouldn't even notice like I would say it's like being a vampire once you've had that kind of addiction it's like you walk around and the first thing I noticed is people have good veins in their arms

you know I remember when I was coming off it and I was in in a queue in a supermarket and I could see like the blood pumping in a vein at the back of someone's neck and going like oh that's a good vein and it's ridiculous it's so ridiculous I know and even now looking back I'm like god I was just this kid plucked out no one knew anything that I've been through and thrown in this industry and I just didn't last I lasted nearly two years and then I relapsed um and you started taking heroin again yeah yeah and it was through like I said I was at a party and met a band and they were heroin addicts. And a lot of the people... Was it Coldplay?

No. Oh, I wish. Coldplay. They'd have tucked me up into bed and, you know... Don't take heroin. I'd just like to point that out. They don't say, haven't you? Disclaimer.

No. So, yeah. And it just was very hard. But it wasn't the modelling. It wasn't any of that. Because I'd already started to find that pressure too much it was just the fact that I hadn't had the right help and understanding I'd literally thought to myself right if I pretend none of that happened then I'd be fine and or if I had a baby that would give me fill that big hole in my soul

that I've been searching to fill and everything would be okay and obviously none of that is so how did you get yourself out of that particular fix then as it were just support from loved ones I was I had a really lovely partner at the time um so they could see something was wrong and that you were going off the rails I met this current partner as a heroin addict and I think they just saw something in me I didn't see and helped me get off it and I went to rehab and you know and I lost everything and at that point I was like 26 and that was like the lowest because obviously I'd never used drugs around my daughter my mum would always help me because I've got a sister very close to my daughter's age so I used to feel like I had the secret and nobody knew

about it and I would do it when no one was around but obviously to the outside world I think it's very very obvious when someone's living with a deep addiction but I lost you know I did I I lost a lot and I was for the first time I think in my life I had nothing to do or look forward to and so I went to stay with this boyfriend and started to watch films and started to write and he was very he wanted to help me get clean and at that point I'd lost everything and I really was ready to um just you know you can't make someone get sober or get clean like they have to be at the point where they just don't want that life anymore and I think it took for me to lose everything I mean everything even when I came out of rehab you know it's like karma came and bit me in the ass I had one bag and it had

all of my possessions in and that was nicked you, the minute I came out of rehab and I was on the phone, someone swiped my bag. And so I was, for the first time in my life, I didn't have anywhere to live. I didn't have any possessions and I was, I had no idea what I was going to do. But the following year, staying with my partner and seeing my daughter and my family really supporting me um so your daughter was living with your her dad at this okay right yeah so it was just a very slow process to just build up confidence um and i started i met a producer randomly through a friend and he sent me a script to read maybe because he thought I had a look and maybe I could act in it and um I didn't I knew I didn't want to act but I wanted

to see what this script looked like and I was sort of like studying it and then I would go like I said I was like I want to write I want to make films like this I want to do this and that was when I guess the AT music started you know and I'd jump on my bike and I'd cycle down to foils and I would sit in the bookstores and read books about script writing and books about filmmaking and guerrilla documentary filmmaking and that's when I was like right you know this is what I want to do and like I said I'd meet people in a I started working at the pub near where I was living with this boyfriend, the marksman. And that's when I started going, oh, you're a director for commercials.

Can I assist you? Can I film behind the scenes? Can I do this? And just started helping people out, working in Molineux, getting a bit of experience about actually when you make a film, then what do you do? All right, the footage needs to go into the system and then you need to edit it. And it was just like watching and learning and then shooting my own mad things and then trying to cut them together and they were terrible and I was like why are they terrible what do I need to do and I mean I shot a lot of really bad short films but it's so inspiring how you just were so proactive and

you just kept doing it and you just got in there. It's like what I'm telling my children all the time. You just have to have that level of enthusiasm and engagement. Well, you've got to find the thing that gives you that. Yes, that's exactly right. Because for me, I'd never found that thing. But I realize now, looking back, I'd always searched for it. I wanted something that made me feel excited and nothing did.

And I realized i had to get good at it and like it's like that's the one thing i i want to pass on to my children is that resilience of you know what people are gonna not like what you do or but you've got to just try so many different things and you've got to ask and ask and be cheeky like god if i i was so shy to ask this band if i could film them or i could if i could go on tour or bring a photographer or do things and it really was a sliding doors moment if i hadn't have gone drink a shot of tequila go up and go can i come in you know if i hadn't have done that then i would never have the career i have now so you really have to just you have to drink tequila you've got to drink tequila and you've got kids you don't have to don't drink tequila

sponsored by don't ever drink tequila so you're you're in your mid-20s at that point so 20 yep and then 26 27 28 filming bands um sort of going on tour with them learning to edit meeting little producers i i wanted to do a documentary about the music industry through the connections i had and how it had changed through the internet i'd got myself tangled up with um some male producers who i don't think at that time were very um positive role models for a young woman being a filmmaker, especially trying to make something in the music industry. You're choosing your words carefully here. Yeah. And I was heartbroken because this is why I'm always trying to talk about resilience, because I was unceremoniously kicked off this film I'd spent a year or two making. And the content of that film I'd been making year or two making and the content of that film

I'd been making was through the trust of the people that I'd got to know and it was really heartbreaking and again there was that moment where I was homeless again and then I was sleeping on sofas and I'd been kicked off this project and I was like what the and it just it was that point again where I was like I just don't think I can do this but what can I do now I've spent these last few years trying to learn something and get good at it and I can't afford to do a this job or that job because it won't pay for my child care I don't want to work in bars for the rest of my life I love bar work I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it but it wasn't fulfilling me and then it was just it was again, reaching out to people going, can I film something? Do you know anything that's going on?

And then, and be willing to just do the work for not much money, but just be passionate. And then, like I said, if you're in the right, people talk about luck. And I really do believe so much of what we get in life is luck. But I also believe so much of it is if you're constantly putting yourself out there and you're constantly getting better at what you do and you're not an idiot and you don't treat people badly and you're nice and people like to work with you. The luck will cross your path at some point. Yeah. Because you're out there doing it. You're exposing yourself to more luck. Everything that I've done, projects that never quite happened, still informed. I learned so much making that film that I got moved off on that by the time I got to film with Vivian, I knew that I wanted a voice and I knew I wanted to tell a story.

And I knew and I'd only learned that because I tried to do that with another film that didn't happen. Sure, yeah. And then, you know, through doing the Vivian and meeting all these other things and And then the next thing happens and it just becomes like, even the bad experiences inform you. I mean, especially the bad experiences. A lot of the time they tend to be the most instructive, don't they? Are you okay talking about the new film and what it means to you and your experience of ending up on the streets yeah yeah absolutely

it's a bit of an elephant in the room isn't it yeah I guess so but still I don't want to be kind of ghoulish about it so the film I'm talking about is somebody's daughter somebody's son and it's about homelessness and it's a good length. I like films that are all done and dusted in under 90 minutes, which this one is. So that's good. But you've collected a cast of characters, some of whom are people who have been on the streets, are on the streets, help with getting people off the streets in one way or another. And you pop up in it yourself, mainly in voiceover to begin with talking a little bit about how you ended up on the streets. But then we see you towards the end very movingly,

interacting with what's his name, the founder of the big issue? Lord John Byrd. Right. And he's an inspiring presence in the film and an interesting character who I didn't know much about. And the film starts off with home movie footage shot by your dad, presumably. Birthday party stuff, walking around in the park with your siblings. And you're a sweet little girl and obviously part of a

quotes normal family right was that an accurate assessment of of what your life was like yeah you know for me someone's daughter someone's son is a is the most literal documentary i'll ever make you know for me my interest is to make stories about much, you know, like I said, entertaining stories, fun stories that that pack serious social messages within, but in a very subtle way. But this film came about as a direct response to what was happening around me. So we were in lockdown and I, Samantha Roddick, who's a very dear friend of mine, reached out to me and said that, you know, there was a film being discussed about homelessness. And she had told the producers that they can't make a film about homelessness without talking to me, to which I replied, I don't want to become known as the homeless director. You know, there's I've done so many more other things. And no, I don't want to make a documentary about homelessness. And so she was like, absolutely, just speak to them.

I think we should just meet you. And I met up with John Bird, the founder of The Big Issue, on Zoom, and we were discussing what was going on. And it was, it blew my mind that, you know, I've hidden from this part of my past for so long, and I'd just covered it and covered it, and it was only at that point in lockdown that I started to get the right therapy finally. And was really kind of working towards like leaving that part of my past behind and working on my addictions.

And I was talking to someone that was talking about as if it was my story today and how the figures were going up and what the government was doing, putting people into hotels. And I remember the first thing I said was, you can't put homeless people in hotels without wraparound care. Like I knew so many people when I was on the streets that had been given flats and they ended up as brothels. You know, they ended up then getting thrown out.

Oh, well, we tried to give them the flat and that didn't work these are highly traumatized people that generally have still haven't recovered from trauma of their childhoods let alone the trauma of living of life on the streets it's brutal survival you are in survival mode and um and i just was like what's going on and he was the first person i ever met in my life who had had a similar background to me and was talking my language but I'd never had been able to talk to anyone about it I just had this grumble in my head every time I passed a poster saying we are going to eradicate homelessness let's get people in houses let's do this and I think I'd walk past and just be like for fuck's sakes when isn't you know when people sakes, when is it, you know,

when are people going to wake up and realise, you know, you're not going to stop homelessness until you prevent it. You're not going to do it like, ah. But I'd always had this grumble and we just talked and it just went on and on. And I don't know how long we talked. It must've been hours.

But I decided to make this film and I decided to use my voice because I knew what it felt. And I knew if anyone could work with vulnerable people or anyone could tackle a story who knew what the solutions were, because I'd been there, that only I could do it. And I made a pact with John Byrd that I would only tell a story that I felt would be able to humanise what it takes.

But I never, ever expected that i was going to be in the film i was very much like no i still need to control this you know i'm going to treat it like a fiction i'm going to meet as many people as i can and i'm going to find incredible people whose stories fill the gaps of what leads people to the streets and ultimately what can get people off streets what saved them what was that key thing it was like right i've got to do this i've got to do it as a character driven story and then therefore then that's the harder question isn't it it's like how do you do that you meet hundreds of people and you how do you then say they're not right your story's not right you can't so everyone that didn't make it into the film are going to be part of a much bigger outreach but then

when i met earl that's when things changed for me so this is a guy called earl john charlton and he is i guess the yeah he's the kind of the heart of the film, really. He's a lovable guy, born in South Shields in Tyneside, and as he says, made on the streets, now works to help people in that position. And he talks in a really kind of stoical way about it, but occasionally is overwhelmed with emotion and apologises profusely for it which makes it even more emotional to watch yeah and he really changed this is when i really committed to

the film and i remember him saying to me you've got to make this film and i remember him turning around to me when i was he could still see i was on the fence about making the film and he was like right this very minute there's a 14 year old girl waking up on the streets gagging for a hit about to do anything she can to get that and your story might inspire her that there's life beyond that you have to do this and that's when i really kind of was like right we're just going to make the best film we possibly can and we're going to make sure we shout about it and we've got to start a movement of empathy of understanding um and we started that and even then i was like but i'm not being in the film you know we're going to do this and i guess it was only we had edited the rough cut of the film and i needed to do

john bird's interview and really structure around that. And it was a little bit of a setup, I think, on the producer's part, but they'd found the big issue that I was in. And I think... And there was an advert in there, which was a missing persons ad asking, and that was placed by who?

By your parents? My mum, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And there was a photo of you aged 14 15 looking very young and i think that's what made me cry because i am a heartless cow and i don't cry very often no i mean it was i don't know how you could not cry really the idea of of that of your daughter but also yeah now as a mom looking at a photo of me and I look like a child. And when you're a child and you're running from trauma and you're running from something,

you don't realize how little you are. You think you look 18 and you think you're bigger than you are and you think you're tougher than you are. And seeing that picture, but also reading what my mom had put in there. but also reading what my mum had put in there and just realising how scared she must have been when she found out not only had I fallen into this criminal gang and been groomed, but then... When you say groomed, what do you mean by that? Well, I'd met a group of guys who used to drive around in a transit van

who were much older than me. This is when you were like... 14. 14. And they were like mid to late 20s. used to drive around in a transit van who were much older than me this is when you're like 14 and they were like mid to late 20s and i'd fallen in with this group and they used to do burglaries um and they used to do hit and runs uh you know i learned how to hotwire a car if i if ever you get locked out you need help okay i'll give you a call um but can i just ask at this point like why did you not run in the opposite direction from people like that because i you know and this is the big like a big misunderstanding

with kids of like well they've got somewhere to go to they've got this you're not born knowing how to have healthy relationships and i think i would have had difficulties even if i hadn't you know been in a household where my mum had been in an abusive relationship, or I don't think if certain things that had, you know, for so much of my life, I was like, well, it's, you know, this man abused my trust. And then this family friend abused my, you know, like I had all these things kept happening to me. And I just had, that was the reason why I'd gone off the rails. And these guys, they treated me like a grownup. They said I could join their group. They said I could join their group.

They said I was fun to be around. They wanted to come and hang out with me. I dated someone in their mid to late 20s who bought me trainers. My mum couldn't afford to buy trainers. And it just felt so overwhelming. And it's only just as I've become older and got more help and there's a lot more understanding about people that sit on the outskirts of what is normal in society that I've managed to understand myself a lot more understanding about people that sit on the outskirts of what is normal in society that I've managed to understand myself a lot more and have really sort of more wholesome relationships.

And like I've only just started having proper friends in the last 10 years. It's like it's this thing that, you know, comes to you eventually. But that's kind of what falling you know that was the descent then because then once you kind of get into that world and you're running from something anyone that feels like they accept you you've become drawn to and they're not necessarily people that have the best interests in mind yeah was there a specific incident that made you run away yeah i got so i was always getting arrested and i was so cocky and I'd always give a fake name and a fake address. And I'd always say I was over 16 because that's what the guys had told me to say.

Because if you're over 16, they can't tell your parents. And then I had this fake ID that one of them had got me. Fake ID, real name, fake date of birth, but also real home address on. And they knew something wasn't right. So I sent to the magistrate's court that put me on bail to my mum's. And I was just full of fear that I was, I was told I was going to be put in a youth offenders Institute. One of the guys was doing a runner cause he was on bail and he said he was going to run away and did I want to come and I was like yes I don't want to go to prison and and ran and

you know and I was really I just constantly felt guilty of what I was putting my mum through because she was in a marriage with someone who was a schizophrenic and they were in hospital at this stage so she was struggling with five children and three were really young and I was a child thinking trying to think like an adult and back then I just wanted to be an adult because I felt like if I was an adult people would accept me and I would be looked after so you know we ran away and that's busted up and I was dropped off at a hostel anyway and we I ended up falling onto the streets and again falling onto the streets is not what you would expect like it's the kids I met on the streets were kids you know there was a group of kids it was like the lost boys and we they accepted

me they were all running from something they all had things they didn't want to tell each other and it was just this group of of of teenagers where were you geographically soho right okay yeah yeah and soho and it was only as the summer moved on that people went back home you know it got really tough things happened and by the time the autumn came it was just a very small group of people that like myself through things that had happened at nights when our friends went around had become addicted to drugs and i think that's when things really turned for me turned even worse yeah because you know it the thing is yeah it's the drug addiction it's the the danger out there it's the kind of people that are attracted to that

yeah of course i mean it's an it's just a nightmare what whereabouts where were you sleeping for a start um or shansbury avenue it's it's what's really interesting is it's a doorway that's now a private members club but they should actually give me free membership i think um called the century bar oh yeah and that used to be a fire exit to bella pasta next door and they've turned it into two doorways now with a post down the middle and i actually get asked so many times to go there for work meetings and it just never stops um feeling strange stepping across that doorway but anyway i the the period that i was there you can use your own imaginations but it was just that period became a bit of a blur because you know when you're on the drugs that you know you generally take to survive in those kind of situations um you just lose track of days and months and years

and how are you getting hold of the drugs just through like pimp pimps and people on the streets that you know there's always people uh willing to give drugs and also we beg for money well this is a big question at this point isn't it is it a good thing to give money to homeless people i mean you don't want to be the spokesperson for that right because that's a bigger question this is a big question because at the end of the day like um i don't give homeless i stop and say hi sometimes if i see someone's really young i will grasp them up to the police and i'll buy them a sandwich and kind of tell them but you know when I was on the streets and I was vulnerable I would tell anyone anything they wanted to hear because I just needed money because I was in survival and I would have told you my

parents were dead everyone else on the streets did the same it wasn't just me the thing is I don't have like a hard and fast policy right and I've read arguments both ways about why you shouldn't and why you should give money to people who ask for it on the streets. But so sometimes I will, sometimes I won't. It's totally arbitrary. And the thing is that when I do give the money, it's not just because I think, oh, well, they're telling me the truth. They just want to buy food. Sometimes I give it to them when it's absolutely clear that they're not just going to buy food. They just want to get a hit or they just want to have a drink. And I just sort of think,

well, you know, if I was in that position and I felt totally hopeless and I just wanted to escape for a little bit, then I'd be pleased if someone gave me a hand I I wouldn't like anyone to think that I don't give a toss if someone's going to go out and feed their addiction you think about that of course you don't want to encourage someone who's in a bad place but at the same time you don't want to ignore them and it's so impossible to do the right thing quotes in that situation but But it's about empowering people, I think. And again, to go back to the doc, the only reason I made it is because I really desperately wanted to go, how can I, such as the conversation we're having,

get across to people that you can be empowered? I wanted the film to have an ending that made people feel like it is possible, know that it's possible to make change happen, that we shouldn't be walking past homeless people in the first place there really is no need in our country in our society to have homelessness it's insane i think part of the reason people walk by homeless people and don't make contact sometimes is for that reason i.e that it is just so it's such an upsetting complicated impossible to fathom problem and you don't know you feel guilty you feel frustrated you feel like you know someone was saying to me the other day oh you know there was a homeless guy outside the tesco

and i i said hey man you know do you want me to get you anything in there and uh and he said yeah get me get me some tenant super or whatever and they said well i'm not going to get you some tenant super but i will get you some wraps and they they went in and bought him some i hope he threw it yeah well he did he just said this is not fucking tenant super and they said you know you can't you can't do anything right can you there's no easy fast answer and like i said for me i wanted to go okay well look here it is here's my answer i want people to feel empowered that it's absolutely possible i want to give them as much understanding as you could possibly have because it's a complex matter you know this is

it's like a 10 part series, not a one film, but I wanted to put something and my energy into something so I can go, right, here's my voice in the matter. Now I need to get back to making silly, irreverent films. So what was the thing other than empowering people to not feel guilty when they pass a homeless person and not use that as an excuse to ignore them. Are there practical things that you would like people

to take away from the film and to do? That every person they pass on the street was a child once. You know, they weren't born for that world. So it's about having a little bit more empathy about, you know, why people are there. But I want people to see this film to really see world so it's about having a little bit more empathy about you know why people are there but I want people to see this film to really see that it has nearly been eradicated before and it has around the world and that the empowering feeling I hope they get from it is that it's possible it

is 100% possible to end homelessness yeah I don't want people to feel guilty for walking past homeless people I want them to feel like it's possible to be live in a world where there is no homelessness yes are there are there specific organizations that you would encourage people to support they're all good and i would always say give money to organizations actually instead of people on the streets which sounds awful because you know it was the public that funded my drug habit for so long i mean the organizations i'm aware of offhand saint mungo's yes are amazing some mungos really are amazing london connection gave me free medical and help they're there you can google any amount i i personally always try and tell people when they ask where they should put their money is try and find a local grassroots organization

because that if we all start in our own community and if every single person goes right okay if i look at my community what can i be doing who can i be helping why don't i ring them up and not just send money maybe there's something else i can give maybe they need lawyer advice and i'm a lawyer or maybe i can donate one day as a doctor to to help you know honestly it's so overwhelming with how many incredible organisations that are doing the right thing. And I guess my ask when this film comes out is all those incredible organisations now come together and go, right, we all have the same agenda. We all want to eradicate homelessness. We all want to open empathy. We all want to, you know, make the world listen and want to stop homelessness and i truly believe if all

these organizations and charities came together and sat around a table instead of working against each other how powerful would that be like we could go to parliament with every single organization and charity and go right we know your budgets we've done a little bit of reshuffling for you that's what i tried to do a little bit at the end of my film and go that we've got the money so don't worry we're not asking for any more money what we want to do is we want to be your advisory board to help you figure this out and uh reshuffle that money and we can end homelessness and that for me is the dream yeah it's a bit it sounds a bit idealistic doesn't it but it could be done you've got to be idealistic otherwise you can't get anything done wait this is an advert for squarespace every time i visit your website i see success

yes success the way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional. I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't want to stop. your members area and spend in your shop these are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with squarespace just visit squarespace.com slash buxton for a free trial and when you're ready to launch because you will want to launch use the the offer code BUXTON to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Continue. Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was Lorna Tucker talking to me there, and I'm very grateful to Lorna for meeting me, telling me about her experiences.

I said at the end of the conversation there, you've got to be idealistic or you can't get anything done and listening back it struck me as one of those times when I didn't really express myself very well I suppose what I meant to say was that you have to have an idealistic impulse to make positive changes but then you have to be more realistic and make compromises and annoying things like that in order to make change and no one knows that better than the people and the organizations who work to tackle the problem of homelessness i've put links to a few of those organizations in the description of today's podcast a few of those organizations in the description of today's podcast so if you found what we were talking about interesting or disagreed with what we were talking about or felt that we were on the wrong track or i don't know what but it would be great if you checked out some of those organizations

and gave them your support if you are able to do so. As far as Lorna's film Someone's Daughter Someone's Son goes it's not out for a little bit actually it's due for release in spring of next year 2023. I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to be doing around that time so I wanted to record this conversation with Lorna when I had the opportunity and put it out. She is also working on a documentary about Hollywood legend Catherine Hepburn. It's called Call Me Kate. That's the working title, at least. That will also make its debut next year.

Meanwhile, Lorna's film about Vivian westwood is available on various platforms online okay thanks very much indeed lorna a couple of things to mention before i say goodbye this week i'm doing a spot at a charity show at the union chapel in Islington. Wonderful venue. And it is on Thursday, November the 24th of this year, 2022. I will be doing a short spot, I guess around 20 minutes or something. But I am on with some proper comedians that night. Lou Sanders, Sarah Kendall, Brett Goldstein, Luke McQueen, Annie McGrath, and it's all emceed by friend of the podcast, John Robbins. The money raised will go to support those affected by nerve tumours. Don't know exactly what I'm going to be doing that night yet. Probably not video stuff,

possibly a little bit of singing over a backing track. Possibly reading some of the bits and pieces I've been writing and have written. I hope you can make it. Link in the description to buy tickets for that Union Chapel show on November the 24th. Also, yet more abuckles in the form of a podcast interview on Richard Herring's podcast, but it's me interviewing him rather than the other way around. And Richard occasionally has episodes not recorded at the Leicester Square Theatre in front of a live audience, and he calls those book club episodes. And I think the episode with me asking Richard about his new book

has just gone up. And Richard's book is about his experience of being diagnosed with testicular cancer at the beginning of last year, 2021, and the rollercoaster of emotions and anxieties that ensued. But it being Richard Herring, who's taking you on the roller coaster, it's very funny, as well as occasionally moving. Well, it's a roller coaster, so wouldn't be much good if it didn't move. If you're a listener to Richard's podcast, you will know that he's fine. Although he did have to have one of his testicles removed.

But it's given him the opportunity to call his book, Can I Have My Ball Back? So I think you'll agree it's all worked out for the best. Anyway, we had a good mainly quite stupid talk about it all on Richard's podcast that is out now but buy the book

it's Christmas soon nothing says Merry Christmas like a ball cancer book if you are going to buy Richard's book please may I recommend that you buy it from the Go Faster Stripe website. Excellent comedy website run by Chris Evans. Not that one.

So Chris would be extremely grateful of your support if you were to buy Richard's book from him. Link in the description. Okay. Rosie, I think we should head back now. The light is going.

Thank you very much once again to Lorna Tucker for her time. And to Seamus Murphy Mitchell, most especially, as ever, couldn't really do this podcast without Seamus. And I'm very grateful to him for his insight and hard work and his conversation editing today. Thank you, Seamus. Thanks very much to Helen Green. She does the artwork for this podcast. I don't know if I've mentioned that. Thanks to ACAST and everyone who works there. But thanks most especially to you. I just think you're great. I mean, maybe you knew about Lorna Tucker already but maybe you didn't and you just thought

I don't care I'm just going to explore along with Buckles and then I'm going to listen right to the end and stick with him through thick and thin that's nice thank you I appreciate it so much so

in fact that I feel moved to give you a hug. Is that cool? Oh, hey, come here. Come on. Take good care out there. Join me again next week for another entertaining waffle. We've got a movie star next week let me tell you and i believe i'm right in saying that i make an admission in there i don't know if we're going to keep the admission in or not but it's going to divide audiences a little bit like when I admitted on Six Music that myself and my wife shared a toothbrush.

We don't share a toothbrush anymore, actually. We've now got removable heads for the electric toothbrush, you know. I've got yellow, she's got blue. So it's all fine. But this was pre-removable head electric toothbrush, and we both used the same one and I talked about it on the radio show on Six Music and so it might be like that again I don't know wait and see okay I love you bye Bye! Bye. ស្រូវានប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប� Thank you.