THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.194 - RICHARD DAWSON

Episode Date: November 15, 2022

Adam talks with British musician Richard Dawson who performs two songs: The Almsgiver and Judas Iscariot.Conversation recorded face to face in Newcastle on 14th October, 2021Thanks to Ben Tulloh for conversation editing and Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production supportArtwork by Helen GreenRELATED LINKSSPOTIFY PLAYLISTRICHARD DAWSON - THE RUBY CORD (LIMITED EDITION LP) - 2022 (DOMINO)BULBILS (RICHARD AND SALLY PILKINGTON) (BANDCAMP)Richard: "A few particular bulbils highlights if you are on limited time (nb - we all are)"70 - 6060 - Golem In The Spring ('Where Jackdaws Sleep')50 - Conspiracy faeries ('Will o wisp tug o war')47 - Ambient Music of Northumberland ('Safe Haven')30 - Journey of the Canada Goose23 - Courage ('You')RICHARD DAWSON AND SALLY PILKINGTON ON LOCKDOWN PROJECT BULBILS by Patrick Clarke - 2020 (THE QUIETUS)9 SONGS THAT HAVE INFLUENCED RICHARD DAWSON - 2017 (THE LINE OF BEST FIT WEBSITE)RICHARD DAWSON - KING OF UNEASY LISTENING by Jude Rogers - 2019 (GUARDIAN)RICHARD DAWSON - JUDAS ISCARIOT (MINUS BEGINNING) Recorded for the podcast - 2021 (YOUTUBE)RICHARD DAWSON - THE HERMIT (VIDEO TRAILER) - 2022 (YOUTUBE)RICHARD DAWSON - JOGGING - 2019 (YOUTUBE)RICHARD DAWSON LIVE AT THE BARBICAN - 2020 (YOUTUBE)THE SMUDGING RITUAL: RICHARD DAWSON TOUR PORTRAIT Directed by Harry Wheeler - 2015 (YOUTUBE)HEN OLGEDD - TROUBLE (OFFICIAL VIDEO) - 2020 (YOUTUBE)BEST QAWWALI OF NUSRAT FATEH ALI KHAN - 2017 (YOUTUBE)HENRY MAKOBI - SOMENI VIJANA (YOUTUBE)LADY GAGA PUKING DURING PERFORMANCE - 2012 (YOUTUBE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how you doing, podcats? It's Adam Buxton here, reporting to you from a drizzly, windy, cold farm track

out here in the Norfolk countryside in the middle of November 2022. Myself and my dog friend Rosie. Rosie, would you like to say hello to the podcats? No, thank you. I'll just get on with this extremely unpleasant, cold, rainy walk, if that's okay with you. Fair enough. I'm going to cut to the chase with today's intro because it's not that nice out here, I have to be honest with you. And I will tell you a little bit about podcast number 194, which features a rambling conversation and some beautiful music from British musician Richard Dawson. Dawson facts. Richard was born in 1981 in the north-east English city of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, where he grew up with his two siblings and his mum, an A&E paediatric nurse and later child protection officer,

and his dad, a sometime packaging worker and running coach. Richard did well at school, but then rock and heavy metal came into his life, sometimes via one of his favourite 90s TV shows, Raw Power, also known as Noisy Mothers. Then, said Richard, in a 2019 Guardian interview with writer Jude Rogers, Once I got my guitar, I was just obsessed with songs. Everything else disappeared. After screwing up his A-levels, Richard's musical explorations continued and diversified

thanks to several years spent working in a Newcastle record shop and the knowledgeable colleagues that he met there. In 2011, after personal and musical crises and false starts in the noughties, Richard's first album proper, The Magic Bridge, was released. I'm a relative newcomer to Richard's music, which, if you haven't heard it, takes many forms and is spread across a variety of alter egos, bands, collaborations, etc. Oh, it's quite windy and rainy now. But the records that Richard has released under his own name have been described, to quote Wikipedia, as a deconstruction of folk music done in an English style, similar to what Captain Beefheart did with blues music. I've made you a brief

musical montage to put you in the Richard Dawson zone featuring moments from a few of my favorite songs from Richard's solo albums I'll tell you the names of the tracks afterwards and you'll also find them on a Spotify playlist there's a link in the description here we go Throughout his life my grandad had a recurring dream Of fighting as a young man in the muddy fields on the way to Rome He whacked the poor thing on the nose He sprained his wrist and bloodied his clothes Poor

old horse Poor old horse Hear what they did to the poor old horse Snow raved like a pan of cloth

I arouse the eye of my fellow patients Waving their ladles in the dark I was offered and took voluntary redundancy From my role as counsellor At St Cecilia's secondary school So I went back freelance As a graphic designer Oh, I want to Over a sea Churning seas we go

Never ending Passage through the cold Never ending Houses true Playing right now is a clip of the track Horse and Rider from Richard's new album The Ruby Chord which is released on the 18th of November of this year. That's 2022, in case you're listening in the future. And the opening track of the Ruby Chord is a 41-minute epic musical journey in itself called The Hermit. And a beautiful video has been made for the whole of that track by Bristolian director James Hankins.

There is a link to the trailer in the description. trailer in the description also in that clip compilation i just played you heard granddad's deathbed hallucinations from the magic bridge 2012 poor old horse from the glass trunk 2013 a bit of the vile stuff from nothing important 2014 and there was also a bit of the track Jogging from the album 2020, released in 2019. My conversation with Richard was recorded last year, in October 2021, and it came about because I'd seen Richard play at the Norwich Arts Centre a week before. Anyway, someone had told Richard that I had been there at the gig, and the next day he got in touch to say hello and told me that he was a fan of the Adam and Joe show back in the 90s. So I thought that seemed a

good opportunity to invite him on the podcast. The following week I happened to be doing a book show in Newcastle, not too far from where Richard lives. He came to see the show and the next morning I cycled along the banks of the Tyne and I met Richard at the house he shares with his partner and frequent musical collaborator Sally Pilkington and their cat Trouble. Now there's quite a lot of rain on my phone screen where I have my notes. I'm just going to give that a wipe. During the lockdown sally and richard started posting improvised instrumental tracks on a band camp page under the name bull bills sally and richard are also members of the band hen ogled along with dawn bothwell and another frequent dawson collaborator harpist rodri davis

there's links in the description to the bullbills Bandcamp page along with a note from Richard indicating a few of his favourite Bulbills tracks, because there's a lot of them and there's a video for the Hen Ogled track about and featuring Trouble the Cat my conversation with Richard according to my notes

here on my rainy phone screen is the sound of a couple of middle-aged men getting to know each other, and it included a fair amount of bodily function chat, though I hope that we were careful not to get too explicit. We also talked about the musical discoveries that Richard made while working at that Newcastle record shop in his twenties, and the artists that one might assume have been an

influence on his music. Other topics included ambition and the value in not giving an audience what they want and at around the 50 minute mark Richard gave me a wonderful rendition of his acapella song The Arms Giver. Then, to finish, you will hear Richard play a magnificent version of his guitar instrumental Judas Iscariot from the 2014 LP Nothing Important. And I filmed a bit of Richard playing Judas Iscariot on my phone, and you can see it on my YouTube channel. And if you watch that, you will see in the foreground

a fairly elaborate-looking set up, which sadly I was not using properly. So that's why the recording is a little more roomy than usual, but not off-puttingly so. I hope you'll agree. So let's get to the conversation at last, which began with me comparing notes with Richard about his Norwich show the week before. Back at the end with a bit more waffle, but right now with Richard Dawson. Here we go. on that. Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and find your talking hat. Yes!

La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, Centre, which I loved, by the way, it was the first live show I'd seen since the beginning of the pandemic.

And it's a relatively small space, Norwich Arts Centre so I went in there and I was immediately reminded of, oh yeah gigs, I have to stand now for an hour and a half, I haven't done that for a while and also I'm small so I have to find a vantage point

where I can actually see what's going on and I want to be close because it's a night I love those small gigs, I want to see the performer That's funny because it was the night before in Leicester and I might have said it in Norwich is everyone alright? If there's anyone small, please

feel free to come to the front and I just thought you know what, maybe that could be like people wouldn't want to come to the front because it's like they're singled out now for being small. I mean, I'm small as well, so. I wouldn't have minded. I think I would have been fine with that.

My friend Chris, who I went with, is quite tall. Yeah. So he went in and we kind of marched towards the centre of the room. And then I just thought, this is not sustainable for the Hobbit here. And I shuffled round to the side where I had a good view of you. But then I was closer to the speakers. And so at that point, I thought, oh, wow, this is quite loud. And I had some earplugs with me, but they're not proper gig earplugs.

So it was a bit unsatisfactory. I kind of put them half in. So they got rid of the most harsh frequencies which now at age 52 cause me actual pain yeah but i was looking at you and i was thinking he's not wearing in-ear monitors and he's got this pretty loud and a lot of harsh frequencies that come out of your guitar and stuff and i was thinking how does that work for you? It's funny because I think it's probably, well, it wasn't that loud for me on stage, actually.

But it is a problem. I've had a few instances where, I did a gig once where I just filled in on guitar. I played guitar with a friend's band and with some big festival and it was so loud. It got to about 10 minutes from the end of the set and I ended up just lying down flat on the floor to try and get away from the noise. It didn't seem like an option. I could walk off stage. That kind of has its own meaning, you know. And, yeah, like you say, just, like, physically painful.

And I do get that, you know, I've been playing with Andrew Cheetham, the amazing drummer. He plays loud sometimes and we're right next to each other. So it's sort of after a two-year break and my tinnitus getting a little bit better, suddenly it's right back to where it was after three shows with the drummer so it's scary

but I have the earplugs I just forgot to wear them it's amazing how blase you get let's pivot do you like saying let's pivot I've never tried it but I'll give it a whirl in a few weeks.

Have you played in America much? No. Well, once you get to America, you're going to have to get used to saying, let's pivot. No, thank you. I have been to America with Sally. We went a few years ago, over New Year's. We went for a road trip. Oh, nice. Where did you go?

We started in New York and had a few days there. I got terrible food poisoning. Oh, mate. You had a bad stomach when I saw you in Norwich. You know, it was bad. But were you exaggerating? I was using the tools, which situation it was bad i wasn't i didn't think i was going to be sick okay there was a small chance i was going to be sick richard

came on and at the beginning of the show said i ate something that didn't agree with me today so you might see me later on throwing up into a bucket which added quite a charge to the experience of watching you. No, it was fine. I had a dish. I won't name the restaurant. But I knew even as I was eating it that this was a bit dicey. And it was tasty, but it was almost too tasty. In the same way that rotting meat is tasty.

Yeah. Have you seen that video of Lady Gaga throwing up? No. There's one on YouTube and yeah she's just going off to the side and you can see her spewing and then heading straight back on. She's a trooper. Well that's

really amazing to keep singing as well because it really knocks your throat. Right. Gosh. yeah it was really flowing out of her in a tremendous fashion fantastic so you're in new york on your road trip you got a bit of food poisoning oh yeah and uh sally went and had a brilliant day in a sort of hallucinatory days in the place we're staying we get very upset watching the documentary about philip seymour hoffman which seemed to be on loop, that kind of thing. I shouted for help at one point because it wasn't stopping.

Oh, my God. Yeah. Did you really? Yeah. I tried to call Sally at first because I was just in a daze. Please, you have to come and help me. And then I was sort of, like, I think I banged on the door and sort of like, I need medical help here.

Oh, man. And then it sort of passed that isn't funny though we're laughing but that must have been terrifying quite wild I hope this isn't too much for you no there's nothing too much there was a sound but it was like a high pitched

it was sort of like like a like a beam coming out of you coming out of my body for about two minutes straight not coming out of your mouth

no it was it was almost it felt like a voice of some other being it was like it felt like a voice of some other being it was like my spirit's scream but I felt really good afterwards

purged, exorcised I could see clearly and I didn't have any thoughts yeah oh man that is hardcore because my pivot question for you was going to be i went and i looked at a ama ask me anything session that you did on reddit oh god it's a large community so

there's dark corners of reddit and then there's very enthusiastic positive parts of reddit and you seem to get all the nice, enthusiastic ones. So you got some good interaction on there. One of the questions was from Cogs156. This was 2019, you did this AMA. What's your go-to junk food snack? And your answers chimed very much with my own. I'm trying to think what my go-to junk food snack

would have been in 2018? Yeah, 19. Pre-pandemic. I cannot think what that would be, no. Spicy knickknacks. They've been overtaken in my book now. I'll go for a simpler crisp. Space Raider.

Space Raider? That's like something out of the 70s. What happens with a Space Raider? Space Raider's gorgeous. Underrated crisp. Or, hang on. I've never heard of a Space Raider. Is that a Geordie fest?

Space Raider's like the best crisp. No, it's like you used to get them for 5p when I was growing up. They're not the best crisp. No, it's like you used to get them for 5p when I was growing up. They're not a potato crisp. They're like a maize snack. Okay. For me, it's Wheat Crunchies. No. Oh, dear.

What's your problem with Wheat Crunchies? They're strange and dull. Oh, that hurts. Hey, no disrespect to the makers of Wheat Crunchy. Oh, me? You're loving the Wheat Crunchies. I don't like them. No?

No. The worst thing about Wheat Crunchies, or best, depending on your point of view, is the repeating Wheat Crunchy burps. I guess they're not that digestible. That's a good thing, I think. It's like bonus content. Anything that gets something out is a plus. Yeah.

You've also got on your list Dime Bar. Really? Yeah. Do you not like Dime Bar? No, I do like a Dime Bar, but not... I mean, that's... It's not your go-to snack. Maybe I was like...

This was towards the end of the questions and I was just... Just saying, right? Yeah, that's a fit chocolate bar. No, it wouldn't be a Dime Bar. maybe I was like this was towards the end of the questions and I was just just saying right yeah that's the first chocolate bar no it wouldn't be a dime bar that's a no dime bar is like a special occasion bar

yeah because it's very hard and it's not a relaxing eat no it's high maintenance you've got to deal with the stuff stuck in your teeth yeah not good Snickers Snickers you don't seem impressed you've got to deal with the stuff stuck in your teeth. Yeah. Not good.

Snickers. Snickers? You don't seem impressed. No, it's fine. There's nothing wrong with the Snickers. But, I mean, for someone who's turned his nose up at Wheat Crunchies. That was the moment.

I felt like, you know, we're meeting here to do this interview, but, well, I felt like we're getting along quite well. Maybe I might even send you a text in a few weeks like just a random text but I felt it slip away just then with the wheat crunchies

followed by the Snickers we've been getting Sally's sort of dragged me into the world of upmarket chocolate now so we get this is your partner? that's right yeah she's you know she's amazing and but she's got a lot more class than i have so she's green and blacks now okay it's got to be like a

certain percentage of something in something i don't really understand it annoys me that whole dark chocolate thing the way that they've now decided it's a matter of fact that actually dark chocolate is good for you and it's good for your heart and if you want to live longer have some dark chocolate and my wife loves dark chocolate yeah so it's like good for you off you go and enjoy your dark... I don't like dark chocolate. I do remember seeing a story on the BBC and it was the oldest woman I think in the world at the time,

she was a French woman. I remember this story. She maybe got to something like 112 or 118, but they asked her what her secret was and she said it was a small glass of port every evening and one square of dark chocolate.

Sad shit, doesn't it? I mean, it's... Mixed in together? What about a big party bag of dark chocolate? See, that's more like... Three bottles of wine. One...

And then one ciggy. Just one ciggy. That's fine. Harry Dean Stanton lived a long time, didn't he? He was like 92. And he was smoking whenever you see him. I think maybe he had figured out if he stopped

he would be in trouble. Am I allowed to swear on this podcast? Of course you say what you want. Good, thank you. Do you like swearing? Yes. Did you grow up in a swearing house? No, very much not, no.

My parents were, my mum grew up in Burden, which is a former mining town, and my dad was in the West End, in like, Elzik. So they, we grew up in Gosforth, which was in the West End in like, Elzik so they we grew up in Gosforth which was like the promised land

and it's almost like, you know this first generation middle class is this idea I have where it's like, it looks like kind of middle class, but they like it was that thing of trying to knock the accent out of you as well like

don't speak properly you know no no why i and so who is that your mum and dad yeah you know and like no swearing and not like super strict or anything but just like don't talk like that you know is it say like i'm just getting out you know go it's going you know! I think this idea of to get ahead in life, you would have to lose a bit of your Geordie accent. But there's a real commodity to having your own accent, especially the Geordie one is very beloved. And you sing, obviously, with your own accent. There's never any question that...

You don't try on different voices, do you? I think that there's certain songs you sort of edge i'm not going to veer too far away but there's certain ones where i might pronounce my words a bit better little things you might just edge you know pronouncing an ing rather than an in but i mean i can feel my voice shifting all the time in conversation anyway from more Geordie to more more like a

not Queen's English but something like that and I can realise I can often mirror people. I've got a bit of an issue in Newcastle because I have a good pal Ben I've got several good pals Ben but

this particular Ben I worked with in Windows a quite sort of amazing old record shop that was my first job upstairs downstairs very old-fashioned hilarious place how old were you when you got there I was like 20 and I was really all over the shop. Like, it was amazing. I got this job. It was kind of through a recommendation of a pal to the manager. I was very lucky. And it was a wild place. Like, you wouldn't believe it, the people who were working there.

Like, one bloke who was a massive Elvis fan from Blaydon, which is just close to where we are now, but he spoke with an American accent. But like an idea, you know, hey there, how you doing? Answer the phone like you're through to

the easy listening section, what can I do for you madam? All that kind of stuff. And this was like 24 hours a day. And he was just one of many characters. Anyway, I went with him. He's from Sunderland and we spent quite a lot of time together

and I picked up his accent. And it stuck. So now I've got a bit of Sunderland. What's the Sunderland? It's hard to describe. It's close to Geordie, but it's a bit sort of softer you're starting to get. Lauren Laverne is Sunderland, isn't she? That's rightordie but it's a bit sort of softer you're starting to get Lauren Laverne is Sunderland isn't she

that's right yeah it's a bit rounder I guess so all the time now in Newcastle people when you get chatting

to someone new they're always like are you from Sunderland no I am not from Sunderland you know about

the sort of rivalry and all that stuff. I kind of pick up on bits of it from listening to Athletico Mince, Bob Mortimer's podcast, where he teases his mate, Andy Dawson, who's, I think, from Sunderland. Yeah. So, tell me about the record shop, Richard.

You're 21 and 21? Yeah, I had messed up my... No, GCSEs were starting to go a bit badly. Messed up my A-levels. Because you were listening to too much music? Well, yeah. Drinking too much booze? I didn't really get into drinking until I was about 18.

All I wanted to do was make songs, and that's when school went down when I was about 13, 14, because I was pretty, like, a bit of a swat, you know. But then, you know, I'm just in lessons, just writing lyrics and stuff. That's what I wanted to do. So were your parents sitting you down and saying, enough with the music? I guess so, maybe I don't I don't know I don't speak for them but

probably didn't really know how much I was sort of veering off course you know so yeah I had a teacher Mr Connolly who was the head of Sixth Form. He put in a phone call and managed to get us on this degree course at Newcastle College. Jazz, Popular and Commercial Music was the name of the degree. Good one. Commercial Music. And I did that for a month and a half and then that was not working

obviously but I stayed long enough to keep my £1000 loan from the student loan company which I'm still paying off to this day and then I had a year where I just we had a local video shop called Showstopper Video on the high street.

There was Blockbuster, Global and Showstopper was the one because it was just the mad one. You know, it had a massive world cinema section. So I just watched everything they had. And that was kind of an amazing year. It was obviously awful as well. I wasn't in a good place, but maybe watched like three or four films a day and was just a general layabout. Still living at home at this point.

Yeah, so I think my parents were probably pretty, well, who knows, but they can't have been unconcerned. And yeah, then I got this job through recommendation by pal to the manager of Windows. And then it was just like, that was kind of the beginning of drinking. Because I had a wage then suddenly, so you go to the pub after work and just going out most nights and then trying to do your job the next day. And I kind of maintained that throughout my 20s.

Yeah. Pretty wild. And were you someone who was delighted by how free alcohol made you feel? Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, those first, you don't think of it like this at the time. Yeah. Those first couple of drinks, you're just flying.

I think John Duran calls it the hour of power and I totally know it because I'm feeling about one and a half pints of Guinness in where it's just like I am being really funny right now and I don't think that's just a perception thing

I think you do just get freer don't you it flows a bit more. But obviously that deteriorates from about two pints onwards. But, you know, when you're younger, you don't really realise that. Yeah. You just wonder, why do I feel... I wake up and I think I'm a real dickhead. Ah, could it be? Oh, hmm. And, you know, it's a bit of a spiral,'m a real dickhead ah could it be

oh hmm and you know it's a bit of a spiral that one isn't it yeah because you're

always chasing that the hour of power yeah that feeling of when it goes right and then you and then your hit rate just

nose dives and whereas it used to be it used to feel like oh every night I used to go out I had a good time, and it just happens less and less now.

Why is that? Yeah. I think as well, there was much less kind of education about mental health back then, and it was... Mental health and physical health. It didn't even occur to me that it was bad for my physical health. I mean, really, I didn't think about it. Yeah.

So it's kind of, yeah, it's wild looking back. I mean, it was kind of university for me, working in that shop. And I was there for four years because I worked with an amazing guy called Robert who was a huge, huge knowledge of music, very into a lot of jazz and experimental musics. And so that was where I sort of discovered Sun Ra.

And here, you know, it was the only place in Newcastle where there was like a whole rack of 20, 30 Sun Ra albums which is life-changing stuff. But, you know, you've also got all the great jazz people there and John Coltrane. It's got to blow your mind at 20, just, you know, hearing Sun Ship, the dearly beloved of Sunship just just trying not really understanding it all but like it's just such a leap from

just the metal that I listen to which I still love but there was also like a whole kind of international section. So amazing Indian music and African music. And then this avant-garde section, which was like frowned on by all of the rest of the shop. So those kind of things were all just sitting on the shelves in this incredible mad shop. It really was a mad shop, Like, very old-fashioned. Had to wear shirts and ties. And, you know,

I worked with a beautiful old man, David Routledge. Very, very nice man. But he was deaf as a post. He was probably about 80, 79, 80, when I worked with him. And the customers would come up and ask him

for help. And he customers would come up and ask him for help. And he would take them out to whatever they'd ask for, but he was always farting. But he had no idea. It's like a dog that sort of gets up. So he's leading them away to the jazz section.

So there's... And the customers looking at us were like what what do we do with mr fart what's this just oh no give him give him a thumbs up just go with it that wasn't all the time but he had a real period of like okay it's only five pence just really uh permanent flatulence i think i'm getting into that period in my life now as well. You get relaxed, don't you? Because I have a bit of an indigestion. So I burp quite a lot under my breath, like a sort of thing.

And I just forget that I'm out in public. Yeah. Because I'm so used to now we live out here, it's very quiet out here relatively. You just sort of maybe get a look from somebody on the train sitting across from you the train is dangerous as well because i have my headphones on oh yeah so a couple of times i've just farted and i thought yeah i'm just gonna have a fart and also after i got covid my smell went so i, I just thought,

yeah, fine, I'll just fart now all the time. Because I'm no longer terrified of the odour. I initially thought, like, your ability to produce smell went. But I think that's because, I don't know, I think my brain has been tainted by living with trouble. Because she produces a smell. Trouble is your cat. Yeahainted by living with trouble. Because she produces a smell. Trouble is your cat?

Yeah, Trouble's a cat, but she produces a smell when she's a bit miffed. Aha. From her face. Really? Yeah, it's like a weird, musky, strange, annoyance perfume. I didn't know cats did that. I've never had a cat that's done that before. Wow. Is it her breath? No that's done that before. Wow.

Is it her breath? No, her breath is a different smell. It's more of a fishy smell. Really? Or it's sort of turkey or chicken smell. Has she not been just snuffling turkey and chicken? And then you come and you see her after a big turkey session. You're producing a curious odour from your face

the frustration odour is separate from the breath she does it specifically if you like shift her when she's comfortable she'll do a little face part I wish I had that ability sure

we're halfway through the podcast I think it's going really great. The conversation's flowing like it would between a geezer and his mate. All right, mate. Hello, geezer. I'm pleased to see you. There's so much chemistry. It's like a science lab of talking.

I'm interested in what you said. Thank you. There's fun chat you there's fun chat and there's deep chat it's like chris evans is meeting stephen hawking you've got kids right no oh you know okay you did the song at the show i saw in norwich about dropping your daughter off at uni yeah and it was just at that time in September where a lot of people had been doing exactly that. I'd just done that, dropped my son off at Sussex University.

Oh, wow, for the first time? Yeah. Wow, how was that? It was good, actually. I'd been really frightened of it because I'm a bit of a weed bag when it comes to emotional matters. And thinking about all that stuff which i didn't want

to think about especially after a year and a half of covid shite sure but actually it was fine and we all went together so my two younger children were happy to get a day off school and we all drove down and dropped him off and it was really good that we were all there because we all kind of um balanced each other out if it had just been maybe me and my wife it might have been a bit more heavy emotionally and tearful but because the other two kids were there we were keeping it light a little bit yeah you know so when was that you dropped him off just a few weeks ago yeah mid-september how's he been doing since he's good yeah how have you uh you found it since fine good really good fine good it's been different

for me because i've been out doing shows yeah so I was able to switch to a different routine and I was distracted in a nice way by thinking about all that I think my wife's been okay she works from home she's still busy, she's got lots to do so she's not sitting around pining too badly we speak to him a lot

and he sounds fine so it's all been quite positive so far it does you feel like very easy company adam and i wonder if that's whether we might be on a similar level of general anxiety i did think that when i heard a couple of interviews you gave and a couple of, there were just little clues that I picked up on and I thought, yes, okay. Because listening to your music, I had a totally different image of you, a totally different expectation of what you were like as a person, which was immediately dispelled when I saw you live and you started talking to the audience. immediately dispelled when I saw you live and you started talking to the audience

and it was much softer and more direct and more friendly that's good yeah I sort of want to go against like I don't know what the idea of a musician is but I have a certain idea about

like certain tropes of particularly singer songwriters it would be good to avoid them like a certain preciousness it's good to try and dispel even if it's actually true if I can provide a facade

which is welcoming then that's no it's good you form a connection with the audience very quickly and your banter if we can call it that between songs bounce bounce pata pata is better isn't it in the musical context but it's it's not cringy which sometimes a chatty musician doing a lot of into song patter can be i've certainly been to gigs where you are thinking, we get it, you love talking,

but play another one of those songs. And you had it right, though. There was no point at which I was thinking, all right, and how about a song now? That's good to hear, because I really had a good gig the night before, and I was quite focused, and I drifted in the Norwich show,

the one you saw. So when I heard that you were there, I was sort of like, oh, gold. Where were you drifting? Because you said at one point you started playing a song that seemed to be an instrumental. Oh, yeah. Very lovely finger picking. Yeah, what happened there was I was going to play one called Queen's Head, which is probably the trickiest one, one of the trickiest ones to do

and I'd just reached a point of feeling like I'm a bit tired and I struggled with it the night before and I just thought I'll just play one I took a bit of an easier route and I knew as soon as I started it was the wrong direction and the wrong reason

so I think that's why I think about that show and I think about that little period and i think i've followed up with a song i was just trying to get the vehicle under control and not really in it like how i've been for the first 40 minutes i think it finished well but it was just that little 10 or 15 minute period was loose and I could feel that my banter was, I don't know I was wittering and the pace was all off. It didn't feel like it. That's good. It was good, it was all

compelling and the piece that you abandoned was great. I just hit the wrong notes and it was fine usually I would continue but it felt actually like it was quite good to stop like I like to see that kind of thing in a show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It reminds you that you're watching something that isn't too slick.

Well, I'm not sure that would be my... But, you know, on that same thought, you talk about playing wrong notes, but you seem to incorporate a lot of dissonance and strange atonalities into a lot of what you do to the extent that you could probably bury a few bum notes in there and make it look deliberate. I think what happened there was I wasn't really very focused in the moment

because I was thinking about the other song I probably should have played and my reasons for not doing it were kind of cowardice. Okay. And so I wasn't focused enough to roll with the punches. When you say cowardice, you're giving in to the impulse to please the audience? No, not in that instance, although that's a terrible feeling. It does, yeah, try to avoid that for sure,

but, you know, sometimes when maybe you don't feel it's going your way, you might, like, pull out the big guns't feel it's going your way, you might pull out the big guns and it's just horrible. It's so nice when you have a good situation and the audience are there with you and you can just focus really and do what you

should do. Yeah, I don't know, some people ask for certain songs and I always think it's quite nice to any requests? People always say the same one or two. Jogging? Oh, not jogging, no, usually you go the vile stuff. Okay. And poor old horses and all that. Right. It's really nice just to go like, nope. Yeah. Nope. Just refuse. A couple of boring music questions for you. Oh, yeah. What are the ingredients in your musical stew?

As well as some of the names that you've already mentioned, I speculated or was interested to know the extent to which you cared about people like Robert Wyatt. Oh, yeah. So I didn't really know anything about Robert Wyatt until people... Is that a name that gets chucked at you fairly often? Yeah. Right. And I think it's probably just because he's

got a higher register of voice and he sings in an accent, but I can understand it, but it wasn't a big influence. I have since listened to him and now really love it. It was a while. I didn't quite get there with it until I heard Mark Reilly

playing him covering At last I am free Wow And then I obviously went from there to like Sleep Which is a beautiful album That's the one he did with Eno isn't it? Is it?

I don't know anything about him It's just people told me Oh yeah you must like robert wyatt must i you know i better check them out they'll find out what i need to avoid it's that slightly reductive impulse that a lot of people like me i suppose have when you listen to a lot of music you sort of can't help trying to organize it and fit it into, oh okay that comes from there and that's probably, I'm going to put that in that section Yeah I don't, I never

Especially with your stuff which is very hard to figure out for a music nerd it's a sort of detective challenge What's going on here, where's he coming from? I can hear various bits and bobs.

Everything gets sort of regurgitated in some form. Certain elements are maybe drawn from more English folk, which, again, I didn't know anything about really until people started telling me, oh, you must like folk music. Pentangle or whatever it was. Yeah, you know, I better find out about that then. I came from more like, well, metal

first and then into like jazz and experimental sort of like lots of noise music and then onto like a lot of Indian music and Cavalli as well. Nusrat Fahd Ali Khan and all those guys. Yes, I'll put links to some of this stuff

in the description of this podcast because I was looking at some of it and I hadn't heard it before and it's great Henry Maccoby so that was the CD I got in Windows the record shop where I first worked and it was like

£2.99 in the sale because it's got a really crappy looking cover it's an amazing because it's got a really crappy looking cover. It's an amazing cover. It's just like being done on, I guess, whatever it was, paint. Mm-hmm. And this album's just so beautiful. It's guitar playing is like amazing,

really forceful. I remember reading the liner notes. He's a Kenyan postman who entertains the locals at this bar in the town where he lives like most nights you could go there now and find him wow okay that's what the note said anyway and it was just recorded all in one day in a hotel room that was like a key cd for me but I don't think it's like a widely known thing. I don't think he's a celebrated, particularly celebrated musician. I've never heard of him.

No, he's on Spotify. Oh, is he? Yeah. Great. And it's beautiful. Yeah. Instantly likeable and tuneful. Yeah.

Take me home and kiss me there. Oh. Have you heard that one? What do you mean, Henry? Are you talking about home or someone else? Yeah, a bit naughty. Nev Clay you talk about? Oh, Nev Clay is a beautiful, beautiful man

who lives in Newcastle. He's like a real, really loved by loads of people here. I played a gig with Nevff when I was 15, and I must have been really shit, but he was so generous and encouraging and nice, and he's always been like that, just very supportive, super intelligent guy, massive reader, very gentle,

and then on top of it, he's the best songwriter I've ever heard. Absolutely amazing melodies and words and yeah and you know he's just sort of not ambitious in the way of, he's very ambitious with his music but I don't think he's so ambitious to like you know

break through so yeah he's a really special person How's your ambition? Not really, yeah. I'm very ambitious with the records, but yeah, I feel a bit at odds sometimes with certain aspects of it, because I don't really, particularly now, like I feel a bit embarrassed, you know, I don't need to get up in front of people these days like I used to I think for validation but I don't have the kind of

ambition I see some other musicians have or maybe I've got no desire to be famous or anything like that that seems like a really mad thing to wish for I don't get recognised a lot I'm not very well known

but now and again it's a nice amount it's like once a month once every two months maybe even but I wanted to keep pushing the music and try and get to new places with that so yeah both big yes and big no

to the ambition how about you? I wondered whether you were because I sent my email to you, zero cool, that I was a big fan of Adam and Joe's show. Like, it was a really important show because it coincided with

when I got my telly in my room for the first time. Right. Which is... That's a big time, yeah. It's a big deal. So it was all of those Channel 4 programmes suddenly,

which we never had channel 4 on downstairs yeah so you've got your show and then like Euro Trash yes

Banzai you mentioned Banzai that's right God what else what else was there Spaced Spaced yeah

all of that Iannucci and Chris Morris' stuff earlier on well I watched that so that was before the day to day was before I got the telly Yeah, all of that. The Iannucci and Chris Morris' stuff earlier on. Well, I watched that. So that was before, the day-to-day was before I got the telly.

I remember watching that with my mum. And it was pretty, like, I was mind-blowing stuff for those first few episodes of the day-to-day. Bomb dogs. Bomb dogs, yeah. But even my mum was like, this is really impressive. I don't think she liked it, but she was mum was like this is really impressive I don't think she liked it but she was

really like impressed but anything Channel 4 would have been a bit too much of a leap I think for the

living room yeah how do we get into that oh yeah so ambition because that the aesthetic

of Adam and Joe is so homemade and then you went to like radio after that i guess yes we did we failed to commit to a transition to something more mainstream not for want of trying i should point out yeah because i suppose there's a temptation to go back and rewrite history

somewhat as us going no screw you we're not going to do your boring mainstream shit we're going to keep it real and and stick to our principles but no we desperately tried to do the boring mainstream shit and uh didn't it just didn't work out i mean i say desperately we we certainly tried and there was certainly part of us that aspired to some kind of mainstream success. Because, you know, we were enthralled by all this kind of culture that we consumed, but then the other half of us wanted to take the piss out of it. So it was a bit of a tussle, internal tussle. And it was quite painful trying to figure out which way we were going to go. And I only feel in the last few years, actually,

that I've finally shed that, maybe since I've been doing the podcast, perhaps. It's weird. I'm very conflicted about the idea of ambition because I can see the value in taking what you do seriously and wanting it to connect with as many people as possible. On the other hand, it comes along with so

much unhelpful, unwanted crap. I think as well, maybe more so in the music world, is that if you give an inch, you never get it back. Even if it's

some little project you do or something that you're not quite into you say yes to something like to me it's like a i don't want to be up my own arse about it or anything but it feels like a sacred or spiritual or something like this it's like it's all i am so the thought that i might do something for professional reasons when it might harm the music would be... I mean, I respect it in other people, but for me personally, it would be a disaster, I think.

I'm never going to be that popular because of the way it sounds and I can't sing in tune that well. You know, I can sing in tune reasonably, but it's not a voice that many people are going to want to listen to. You say that, but culture always finds a way to incorporate this stuff. So your music could, in the right hands,

easily soundtrack a car commercial. Do you know what i mean like everything that you think could never be incorporated into mainstream culture has been at some point or could be yeah i mean i don't want to suggest either that it's like something that's so edgy it's and it's because i don't think it is i think it it's quite accessible. Yeah. But it's accessible maybe musically. It might be a bit off-putting at times, but I think if you approach it more from a poetry point of view, then it's like...

Because most poetry is mad. People just accept that. Like, I've just bought a book of mad poetry, like a whole book of it. Like, it's a normal thing. Whereas anything like that in a song is oh my god there's no chorus what's happening it's got a strange

rhythm oh my god it's a strange thing that we have these expectations of music that it's meant to do a certain thing whereas we don't have that with I guess we probably do have it with more and more things but certainly not poetry or novels

and people are I think always intrigued by the it's not blankness exactly but there's your lyrics are direct and they often feel as if they're not doing the job that most people expect

song lyrics to do, i.e. to be somewhat poetic. Not to say that your lyrics are not ever poetic. I'm really treading carefully here. But you know what I'm talking about. You're saying sentences that kind of fit with the actual notes that you're playing on the guitar. But if another songwriter was trying to express something similar,

they would trim out a few words or they would express it in a different way that wasn't quite so conversational or something like that. Sometimes it's as if you're reading someone's bio on Facebook or something. Yeah. You know. That's basically, that's the secret. Well, it's funny with the, like, shoving too many syllables in yeah because what it has a nice

effect of is it just provides like a natural variation on melodies sometimes i can hear some songs or something and they just repeat the same melodies which is cool like repetition is the basis of a lot of music and it's good but with little variation here and there we're just it won't kill the repetition but it'll just it's just a little a little motif here and so when you maybe do have the right word but it it's going to mean that instead of landing on the note you're going to instead of singing you know like bird it's going to be like whooping swan it's like a and if you have those all over and you're always following what the word wants to do and you don't get too like attached to the melody because when you've

been working on these melodies you you love them and it's really hard sometimes to to go with those words which are going to bend it out of shape but sometimes that's why it's important that they don't you know the first time you might hear something, probably you would tend to not have so many jarring or words stuffed in it. Hopefully it would just be a bit straighter. But once you've heard it once, you're going to hear that melody every time, so you can afford to keep stretching it out,

and it provides a bit of interest and also it's kind of reflective of like what happens with our days you know our days are pretty much the same shape but they get all bent out of shape and you know I'm going to have to put a coat on Adam I'm getting quite cold

okay yeah Richard how do you feel about playing something oh yeah fine maybe I might sing a one acapella I could always try and play that song yeah maybe I'll try this acapella

this song there I'm mainly for a film about Hexham Jail which is sort of five songs each from the point of view of somebody who would have spent time in the Hexham Old Jail, which was like the first purpose-built jail in England.

So this one is from the point of view of a mother whose lad went off to war maybe a few years before and she thinks she sees him around the town because prisoners then from the jail would have been let out to beg or to work to try and earn money to pay off their debt right because you got a debt whether you were found innocent or not so loads of innocent people would just languish in jail because they had no way to earn money. So this song is from the point of view of this lady who goes looking for a son. Is it strange if I just stand here and sing it?

No. Okay. I might not look at you, but it's fine. It's good. There's a fat lad, he goes Through the market begging sugar With a pair of grey log wings Etched into a saucer He reminds me of my own boy i'r sorser mae'n fy nghymryd i fy hun, wedi'i golli yn ffloddwng.

O'r bwynt bwyd i'r moll sy'n eistedd ar ôl ei nos. Daybreak finds me in my pots, coaxing out the hidden flavour of the perch I lifted an empty woolen coat. In the pocket place a mitten from a piebald ferret sewn. Half a bar of tallow soap gains me entry to the courtyard where accused men ply their gwaith, mae'n gwneud i mi ddod i'r ysgol lle mae'r ddynion wedi'u cymryd yn eu traid neu'i ddysgu'r dydd. to be found by the tired eyes of an old man stricken on the ground. Have you seen a fair nose I if I am not mistook the very same went free this morning how my heart goes leaping

like a herald cloudburst upon the revelation to rock, he is returning. Hold my hand and sit you up, drink a good long draught from my cup, a chynllunio'r draff o fy nôl, cwmp o pander, a chynllunio'r coed hwn o'ch llaw. Cynhyrchu'r gar o'r hering, byddant yn clywed eich llaw'n ffynnu. they'll hear your belly groan and like this faggot when you arise to thaw your icy bones

Oh, the fear of purgatory, which behests me to maintain a generous refrain. I know that if my boy were in trouble and I were far away hard I wish that I could sing it better now we've nearly reached the end we can start

to listen again hey that was great man again hey wobbles that was great man I'm going to clap what do you think maybe just one big clap that sounds sarcastic

sounds like a really slow hand clap I enjoyed that me and Sally were in Finland. We spent a bit of time in Finland before lockdown. We went to see a band that were former members of Circle. I can't remember what the band's called. So it was in a really cool club. And the band were great.

And at the end of the set set this is the first night in Finland so we're really like wow just everything is new but when the audience clapped it's like a normal clap but everybody fell into this together and it went on for

very gentle for 2, three minutes just like this all together and it always sucked that makes sense though, I think that's better than the alternative because the alternative is kind of an endurance

test somehow you know like, everyone's like oh god, how long do I have to clap for? everyone's like, there you go, that's fine I have to clap for? You know, everyone's like, there you go. That's fine, isn't it? And then there's always a couple of people who go, no, I'm going to clap longer. I'm going to be the one that's clapping right at the end.

The last clapper. Yeah. Whereas if you're doing something together, more rhythmical, you can keep that going for quite some time. I used to love the, when I was more of a regular gig goer in my teens and twenties, I loved the encore stomp. You know? That's a lot. Yeah, and then it would all break up and become random and then it would i couldn't wait till it started again

because i think maybe you know i don't like football and things like that but i envy in football fans that communal very intense communal experience and togetherness. I can totally get that. Yeah. But I don't really have that in my life in other areas. I am a football fan, but I don't feel often that I'm a fan of the same things that lots of the other football fans are a fan of. And I can't get to that point of leaping around and shouting and stuff like that. Do you do the chanting?

No. No. I don't think I'm a very good football fan. I like things like the slow motion photography. And I remember a taxi driver being enraged with me when he asked me who was the best ever Newcastle United player. The standard answers are Peter Beardsley, Alan Shearer, maybe. That's what I would have gone for.

Yeah. But I said, well, he's probably not the best ever, but he's my favourite, and it's Jonas Gutierrez. So to me, he's the best because he was just all heart. And there was a moment where... Is this OK? We're talking about football. No, it's good. I'm excited. Football on your end.

I'm thinking, this is going to finally make me look a bit more tough. Jonas Gutierrez was a beautiful guy who used to play for the club a few years ago. He wasn't super... He's obviously talented to get that level, but he's not a top-level skill player. He had some skill. No, you don't want to put Gutierrez down. He's got an amazing skill set.

Yeah, precisely. He's got an amazing skill set. Yeah, precisely. He's got a good skill set. He beat a man, I think it was against West Brom, managed by Roy Hodgson. Hodgie, Hodjo. So he beat the man on the wing because the guy pulled up with a hamstring injury and Gutierrez was through on goal

but he saw he'd beaten him through and getting an injury so he stopped and he just gently knocked the ball out of play Roy Hodgson steps on the pitch shakes his hand yes it was

to me that was the highlight of that season to other football fans it wasn't a memorable moment I really thought Jonas Gutierrez sort of embodied to me like something that's disappeared in sport, that's the kind of stuff I get excited

about and I just can't get behind all these like preening rolling around, injured and we don't need to talk about football anymore that's fine Can I induce you to do some guitar magic yeah my fingers are tired uh cold rather not tired this is another thing you were saying in your norwich gig was that your hands hurt oh it was just after that song i did because that one's

bar chords all the way and it's quite mad shapes right and it's just hard work that one sure but you know it's a good bit isn't it just sort of again like under cutting

the rock show yeah yeah to be like I haven't got anything to say I'm just going to rest my hand for a minute no you don't hear too many people on stage

saying oh my fingers are really cramping up I mean you've got Lennon saying I've got blisters on my fingers, but he screams it out in a fairly rock and roll way. So I'll try this instead. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. Thank you. Ooh. It's one. Two.

Three. That's hard work. I've got the house. It's just so cold. I'm sure that's hard work. What's the name house. It's just so cold. I'm sure that's hard work. What's the name of that? Judas Iscariot. The most misunderstood of the twelve.

Wait, this is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. for Squarespace. and pics and I don't want to stop. And I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop. These are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with Squarespace. Just visit squarespace.com slash buxton for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, because you will want to launch, use the offer code BUXTON to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Continue. With Squarespace Yes Continue I got blisters on my fingers And rainy jeans Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was Richard Dawson playing and chatting to me in his home outside Newcastle last year in October 2021. And I loved it. Hope you enjoyed listening to it.

And I've been in touch with Richard off and on via email since then and I got to see him last weekend in London up at the Rio Cinema in Dalston where there was a screening of the film video whatever you want to call it that has been made for The Hermit the first first track on Richard's new LP, The Ruby Chord. The only problem with that night, which I didn't realise until the next morning, was that I had conducted the on-stage Q&A after the screening with Richard and with James, the director, and used the wrong last name for James throughout the Q&A. His name is James Hankins. And for some reason, nerves, middle age, maybe I was thinking about South Park or something. Anyway, I introduced him to the audience at the Rio as James Hankey.

Instead of James Hankins. James Hankey. Oh. And I didn't realise until the next morning. When I was looking up some of the other videos that James had made. Including one for a track called Property by Tim Heidecker. And then I realised, and I was googling James Hankey. I didn't get any hits, obviously.

And then I realised it was James Hankins, and I was like, oh no. And it's one of those things where no one had said anything the previous night, either because they were too polite, or because they thought I was trying to be funny, or take the piss, or I don't know what. I know there's worse things in the world, and I hope James Hankins is not angry with me. I did email him.

Haven't heard back yet. If you're listening, James, I'm very sorry. But it still makes me sad, that kind of thing. Getting people's names wrong in front of an audience. I think they were filming it too. But still, it was a good event. So yes, in the description of today's podcast, you've got all sorts of links which really are just the tip of the iceberg for the world of Richard Dawson there's many many projects to explore and if you've never seen Richard play live I encourage you to do so he's an amazing performer and quite unique in many ways I don't know if you can hear. But it's.

Raining properly now. It's really not very nice out here. Rosie. Are you okay? She was looking a bit. Annoyed and sodden. We're going to be back soon sweet girl. Ten minutes.

And you'll be back in front of the fire with your mum. Thank you very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his always invaluable production support. Thanks to Ben Tullow. He did a lot of the conversation editing on this episode. Much appreciated, Ben. Thanks to Helen Green. She's responsible for the beautiful drawing of my amazing face for this podcast thanks to everybody at acast

and thanks most especially to you for listening right to the end once again much appreciated do you want a rainy hug come on yeah let's go and get dry until next time we share the same our old space go carefully out there i hope you're doing okay and if it makes any difference whatsoever i love you rosie i hope you don't mind, but I wasn't happy with last week's alternative. Bye! Bye. ស្រូវាន់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រ Thank you.