THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.196 - MICHELLE DE SWARTE

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

Adam talks with English actor, comedian and writer Michelle de Swarte about accents, class, modelling, the privilege of being beautiful (something I know too much about), why Michelle watches a lot of videos about narcissism and I give her my last bottle of cognac.Conversation recorded face to face in London on November 14th, 2022CONTAINS STRONG LANGUAGE!Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for production supportPodcast artwork by Helen GreenRELATED LINKSCONTRIBUTE TO THE ADAM AND JOE CHRISTMAS PODCAST MICHELLE DE SWARTE UK STAND UP TOUR 2023 (CHORTLE)MICHELLE DE SWARTE ON INSTAGRAM DR RAMANI - 'NARCISSISTIC HEALING PROGRAM'THE COGNAC I GAVE MICHELLE (In case you're interested, I'm not sponsored by them)MICHELLE DE SWARTE TALKS TO BLACKFILM.COM ABOUT THE BABY - 2022 (YOUTUBE) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human folk Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Hey, how you doing, podcats? This is Adam Buxton.

I'm reporting to you from a muddy farm track in the east of the United Kingdom. Norfolk County, to be precise and it's the end of november 2022 as i record this the last of the light is rapidly disappearing from the sky even though it's only 4 30 in the afternoon's a joke. I disrespect you this time of year. And by the time I finish recording my intro and outro, we will be plunged into darkness. When I say we, of course I mean myself and my best dog friend, Rosie. She's not up ahead bouncing because she is at the end of my retractable lead

can you hear my retractable lead do you like the retractable lead rosie i am doing a poo yes you are sorry to bother you rosie's doing well she was pleased to come on the walk today. Positively excited. I don't know what she gets out of this kind of evening, though. It is well gloomy. Oh, I can see a bit of the moon through the cloud over there. Otherwise, it's like a scene out of The Road by Cormac McCarthy. I always think of that book when the weather's like this, you know, not much light. Dark grey clouds, oppressive.

How are you doing, podcats? Hope you're well, hope you're not too stressed out by this time of year. I'm just behind on everything. Work things, family things. Anyway, look, I'm not going to moan at you. Instead, I'm going to keep things relatively snappy and tell you a little bit about my guest for podcast number 196. Okay, I'm going to tuck the handle of the retractable lead into my coat pocket. Oh, you bugger. Rip the lining of my coat. And get out my phone. Yes, my notes about today's guest,

English actor, comedian, writer and sometime TV presenter, Michel Desuart. Desuart facts. Michel was born in 1980 in Lewisham, South London, to a Jewish mother and a Jamaican father, and grew up in Brixton. At the age of 19, while working at a bar in Clapham, Michel was scouted by a modelling agency and soon found herself with a modelling career based in New York, where she spent the next decade modelling. Rosie, what are you zooming ahead for?

Rosie's straining at the lead and kind of coughing and spluttering in the process. Doglog, are you on the trail of some critter that needs teaching a lesson or something? Where was I? Oh yes, Michelle was modelling in New York for the first decade of the 2000s. The 2010s saw Michelle making forays into TV presenting, but she realised she was better off focusing on her talent for stand-up comedy. She honed her skills while still living in New York before moving back to the UK properly in 2015.

And by the end of the decade, she landed a part in TV comedy-drama The Duchess, starring Canadian comedian Catherine Ryan. Michelle played the best friend of Catherine's character, a friendship that also grew in real life. And Michelle went on to support Catherine Ryan on tour, as well as appearing on her TV stand-up show Backstage with Catherine Ryan earlier this year. year also saw Michelle starring in the HBO horror comedy drama The Baby, in which she played a woman whose happily child-free existence gets complicated when a mysterious infant literally lands in her arms. Michelle is currently still based in London and is now writing scripts for her own TV comedy

drama. Actually, I'm not sure if it's a comedy drama. I'm just guessing there. I know she's working on a TV show. I also know that in February of next year, 2023, she begins a tour of UK venues with her stand-up show, which is called Moved, in which, and I quote from the online blurb, Michelle breaks down the highs and lows of burning your life to the ground and starting again when 40 is around the corner. My conversation with Michelle was recorded face-to-face earlier this month,

November 2022, in a room, once again in the Universal building in London's King's Cross area. In case you're wondering, I'm not sponsored by Universal. I just always feel like I should set the scene. But I will say that the connection is that next year I will be delivering some timeless music to Decca Records, and they are part of the Universal family. That's how come I get to go in that building. So there you go, I've declared it. Next year. Pet Sounds, part two.

However, Michelle and I didn't talk about music. Instead, we waffled about accents, class, modelling, the privilege of being beautiful, why Michelle watches a lot of videos about narcissism, and you will hear the moment that I give Michelle my last bottle of cognac. But my conversation with Michelle began with the realisation that she had once worked with my friend Seamus Murphy Mitchell, who, of course you will know, provides invaluable production support on this podcast.

I'll be back at the end for a little bit more waffle, but right now with Michelle Deswart. Here we go. Ramble chat, let's have a ramble chat. We'll focus first on this Then concentrate on that Come on, let's chew the fat And have a ramble chat Put on your conversation coat And find your talking hat

Yes, yes, yes La, la, la, la, la, la La, la, la, la, la, la La, la, la, la, la, la Do you know Seamus then? Yeah, I do. I had to think about it, actually. I've got to text him back. Yeah.

Because he was like, oh, yeah, shame is from the Dirty Digest, which is like the legend lives on from this show, man, because it got cancelled after like three episodes. And I had to think, you know, like you've got to go through, especially if you've got like a shame file. Yeah. You know what I mean? Thank you so much, Mark.

You're welcome. Beautiful water being poured by Mark. Shout out for Mark, who is so generous and hospitable to us here at the Universal Building. Thank you. Thanks, Mark. It's an absolute pleasure. Enjoy. See you. Take care, guys.

Cheers. Cheers. Nice to meet you, Michelle. Nice to meet you, too. The Shame Files. we're right in on the shame files why is it a shame file can you tell me about the show is it a painful memory is it a politically problematic memory you know what so i was i was living in new york i'd saw and i'd been out there for since 2000 right and i was out there as a model and then I sort of understood that, like, gravity exists. I've got to start thinking about what I'm going to do next.

And then, by chance, I got this presenting job with Abbey Clancy and George Lamb called The Fashion Show. It was a very high-end Adam. Yes, George Lamb was going to be, he was going to own the whole of the airwaves, wasn't he, at one point? He was on fire. So it was George, me, Abby, and we would just go around and talk about clothes.

And I remember sort of doing that and thinking, what am I going to do after this then? Do you know what I mean? I was like, I left school in year nine, bartended, started modelling at like 19, 20. And I was like, this is coming to an end. I can feel it. What am I going to do next?

And then I guess I just started trying to think of other things that I could do. And Chelsea Handler had just done this show called Chelsea Lately. And it was basically a bit of a rip-off of that, really. I thought, why don't we do that in England? So we called it the Dirty Digest actually it was quite a good panel it was um Joe Lycett yeah Catherine Ryan was on it Tom Davis was on it love it AJ Adudu was on it um I'm sure I'm Dan Schreiber it was quite it was quite decent yeah what was the Dirty Digest's studio format then? Were you behind desks?

Yeah, we were sat behind desks. It was kind of like any other panel show, but it was really blatantly about celebrity gossip. And also at that time, it was like before there was Instagram, really. Yeah. So we were just coming out of that era of looking at trash mags like Heat magazine. Yes. You know, all of those kind of things. And we hadn't yet transitioned to anyone can be a star. We hadn't quite. So we were sort of in this weird little bubble of like righteous bitterness.

Do you know what I mean? Look at them. Oh, look at her coming out of yoga class with her sweaty fanny. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. You know what I mean? It was a bit like that. But listen, I feel like I'm digging too deep to try and make sense of the fact that there is no denying I was shit. Do you know what I mean?

I'm like, you know, because this is what was going on in society at the time. Yeah, yeah. But also... Why, because you were inexperienced or you were nervous or why? No, I think there was a bit of that. I also think that I was just very, although I sound like a Londoner, because I am, I'm culturally very New York. Right.

You've been in New York for the last 10 years or whatever. Well, longer, yeah, 16. Although I sound like I'm from here, and I am because I grew up here, my adult life has been spent out there. So I think there's a bit of an ironic cockiness that doesn't wash here. They just think, shut up, you really sound like you love yourself. How come you didn't pick up an accent while you were out there?

Because it seems that most Brits do pick up something, if they're in LA especially, just a bit of an intonation maybe, if not the pull. Yeah, I don't know. I think, one, I'm sort of proud of where I'm from. I wasn't going there to try and find a new identity. Yeah, so you were maybe somewhat resistant to... Yeah, and also to this day I can't do accents.

I actually can't... Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can't imitate accents. Even now I've started acting, my agent's like, there's a part, she's from New Orleans I was like well I guess I'm not gonna be doing that you know what I mean like I joke and say like I think I've got like the range of Danny Dyer you know as far as accents are concerned but I didn't know I've just never picked one up I think I got a bit more sort of weirdly like a bit of a caricature of myself.

I think that happens. You lean into your way of speaking more heavily. Yeah, because if you don't do that, you get like a trans, you know, especially then because it was sort of just before there was vocal fry, you know, like now everyone kind of talks like that. And back then it was like everything was like a question, like even if it wasn't. And you could still do that in your accent and you hear it now. I think it's called like, was it called upspeak?

Upspeak. Upspeak, right. So would you say that you're not a heavy code switcher? No. So you won't moderate your accent depending on your company? No. Okay. Quite the opposite. I think why? Who's that for anyway? Do you do that? I don't think so. I mean, I used to. I used to do it when I was out and about in London as a young man for the first time. Why? Because it just felt like I wanted to blend in.

Thought it was fun, actually. I wasn't in the position that some people are where they feel they will be... I don't know, it's difficult to describe exactly. So, you know, I didn't have anything to worry about exactly. You know what I mean? Like, no one was going to fire me. But if I got into a black cab at the end of the evening I just felt like I wanted to sound like the cabbie I

wanted to be a geezer so so this is what I was asking is like what's interesting is where what end the code switch is coming from right so if you're let's say you're middle class or upper middle class and well at work there's no reason for you to do that but if you're, let's say, you're middle class or upper middle class and at work there's no reason for you to do that, but if you're doing it in social times, well, why would you do that? I think, and I guess the same if you're working class and you've got an accent that says that and you go into a workplace where you feel like you don't belong, then you might code switch. Personally, I've always thought that what is admirable in anyone

is authenticity. Exactly. Well, you find that out. Yeah. But it took me a while. I just assumed, yeah, I was embarrassed by speaking with what I thought was quite a plummy voice in certain. So you was embarrassed of your privilege?

I suppose so, although I didn't think of it in those terms. But that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, that's what it is. And there's, you know, a long tradition of that. The kind of mockney thing is all about that, isn't it? Yeah. It's all about people wanting to be a bit, wanting to be perceived as a bit more authentic

or less privileged than they might otherwise, I suppose. Yeah, because they're embarrassed about it yeah they don't want to lead especially in bands that happens a lot right because it's not i don't know now it's become so blurred because so many big bands come from quite privileged backgrounds yeah in a way that maybe they might not have done originally like rock and roll was originally a way for working class people to express themselves a way that they could achieve all kinds of things and have access to an incredible life and it was an art form that was that came out of the working class experience in a lot of ways

and was looked down upon by more upper class people but do you think that the heart of that is authenticity, right? It's like, you've got a story to tell. And it's one of those sort of even playing fields where people are either going to want to hear your story or not. Yes. Right. Yeah. And who wants to hear a story about someone who's had a great, nice life and who's won the lottery about, you know, as far as where they were born and the privileges they had. Yeah. But that was a good detour from Dirty Digest. Yeah.

And did that experience leave you feeling bruised and scarred? So a few episodes actually aired. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Three episodes in, it didn't actually. It was a massive relief because about, like, episode one, I was like, oh, this is shit. And I knew it. Episode two, they were on some like, how can we fix this? And in my head, I was thinking, make it end. And then episode, I was like, this is a relief because I don't want to have to do a bunch of more episodes of this when I know it's shit. And actually, what was good for me is that I think at that point in my life, I'd just started stand up, but I wasn't taking it seriously. And I sort of thought of it as a gimmick. You know, like I modelled, I had quite a successful career and I had this Cinderella moment

and also I can string a sentence together and I can be funny, but obviously it takes ages to get good at stand-up. And so it made me take that craft seriously, that art form seriously, because had that show worked out, I would have coasted on that and I would have ended up being a funny presenter, which also I'm dyslexic.

So it's not like I'm good at reading autocue. You know what I mean? Like, so what it made me do is through the like kind of humiliation of that in a way is that I was like, I can still go back to New York. And I needed that, like, you know, that juicy shit sandwich to eat for me to think about my options and then go back to New York and do stand up properly. Why was it better to go back to New York rather than plug away just because it was a more familiar environment? Well, because it was better for me to go back to New York because I could make money doing modelling. So it allowed me to be able to do stand-up. Reconnect to that world, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, coming back, it was tricky. I was like, well, if this job hasn't worked out, what am I going to do? I remember at one point I was, like, sat on a washing machine on another, like, ITV something channel with Joe Swash. And we were trying to keep a straight face through the vibrations of the washing machine. And I was just like, what the fuck am I doing? What show was that?

I can't even remember. I think it was... I can't even remember what it was called. Sounds like compelling viewing. Yes, it was. It was very highbrow. Sorry, I don't really think you would have got it, Adam. It's probably gone right

over your head. Joe Swash was one of my preferred contestants on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here. He's lovely, isn't he? Back in the day. He's a really nice guy, you know. He's bloody funny. Yeah. Yeah, he's really lovely. Would you ever go on I'm a Celebrity? No.

Why not? because there's no way i could eat that stuff i don't like bugs and you don't have to eat bugs anymore chris packham successfully campaigned wasn't just chris packham a lot of people objected to the insect and animal cruelty and they don't eat live creatures anymore no just no it's not i just can't do you know what i mean i'm like no what do you not have that you think you need to have to be on that show i don't care enough about money or fame yeah and i think that's why you'd go on that show right yeah is for money which is not but i've had money and i've wanged money and i've had money and i've like pissed it up a wall and then i've had it lost

it had it lost it enough times to not be too scared about being broke if it was to happen again and uh and fame i think is under under any circumstance it's like probably not a great way to go. Right. So you're not chasing it on that basis. I used to tell myself... But if I had kids and a mortgage and I was watching my bank balance go down, I'd be like, yeah, well, I need the money. So whatever.

Yeah. So like this, me being able to have that, you know, that sort of, I guess, be able to sit here and be like, I don't care enough about money. It's like, well, because right now there's no one relying on me in any big way. Do you know what I mean? So it's a privilege to be able to say that. I don't want to sound like an absolute bellend, but I can go on that show. I think the problem with those shows is that it is out of your hands.

You can see people going in and thinking, oh, well, I'll just be myself. I'm nice. I'm all right. You know, I won't be horrible and grumpy like I can sometimes be. I should be able to control myself enough. But what they don't realise is that it's not really under their control. It's all going to be, there's a narrative that they have no contact with that's going to be created in the edit suite. Yeah.

I'm not even sure, actually, what I'm like anymore. Because it was just like... I think I know what you mean. I don't know. What am I like? I've got tolerant friends I don't hang out with that much. They're on rotation. Yeah.

I do stand up, which is its own persona, and I spend a lot of time on my own i don't know what i'm like like i i've tried to sort of reassure myself by giving homeless people money and helping people down the stairs with you know strollers and stuff like that just to remind myself yeah but i'm that person I think I know exactly what you mean and I've had those thoughts too who am I but I think you are you're a nice person I think you can overthink those things and I think there's a you know we're living in an age where everyone is obliged to think so hard about their own motivations right and for better or worse all the little microaggressions

and all the little things that we're not aware of and we're trying to think hard about like, well, get aware of them and get over them and get beyond them, you know, that's a good thing. I think the bad thing about it is that it can sometimes make you question yourself until you are just thinking, I don't know if I trust any of my impulses. No. I think maybe I'm basically a shit bag

and everything nice I do is just so that I can get a pass. Yeah. And that if I was on my own and left to my own devices, I'd just be terrible. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I don't think that's true, though. Well, luckily, that is sort of like, it's like the first rule of Fight Club, isn't it?

It's like, you know, with narcissism, if you're asking, you're not. And thank God, because I'm asking a lot at the moment. I'm like, am I? Am I? That's good, though, isn't it? I mean, it's good to, yeah, it's good to keep a check on these things. I do feel like lockdown... I was like, who am I if I'm not a part of society?

Who am I if it's not reflected back to me? I think a lot of people had that crisis in lockdown. Yeah, I always thought, because I lived in New York for years and then I went to LA and I realised that LA, you take really good care of yourself, but you're not that considerate. New Yorkers have to be spatially aware at all times, right? Pretend it's a city. Yeah, exactly. Pretend it's a city. Isn't she amazing, right?

So I think that there's something about everyone getting on the subway everyone having to walk down the road everyone understanding that we're in this compact city and this cog needs to turn that makes you spatially aware and considerate of other people just to keep the cog going so there's a selflessness in your selfishness, right? It's like, I need to get there. You're doing this. Like, we all need to move. Whereas LA, I'd go through loads of time

where I wouldn't talk to anyone that I didn't know. And I'd start to wonder who I was. Do you know what I mean? Someone would invite me to a gong bath and I'd be lying down on a yoga mat somewhere just thinking... Did you say gong bath? Yeah.

What is a gong bath? Exactly, mate. Not as fun as it sounds. It's just a bunch of people that have just come back from Burning Man drinking raw cacao and then you all lie on some mats and someone hits a massive gong over your head

and you hope that it will like reignite that last bit of ecstasy that you took in the 90s and sort of course through your veins so you can finally feel something. Adam, it's all right, actually. It is actually all right. Gong bath. Yeah. Oh, you've got to come to the gong bath, babes.

Well, actually actually no one is saying it in an accent like that Yeah It's a lot of deep breathing and like There's a lot of vocal fry on the gong bath

Yeah You've got to come to the gong man Yeah Have some raw cacao Thank you. so the the modeling world yeah i mean i'm are, do you get bored talking about it? No, I don't talk about it that often now. Do you know what I mean? It comes up now and again because people find it sort of fascinating.

It is fascinating because it's such a strange artificial environment that seems like a throwback in so many ways. And it seems like it's out of step as an industry with a lot of what's going on now as far as trying to be more progressive in a lot of ways. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I know exactly what you mean.

And I think I was probably like the last generation of girls where, I say girls, women, but also a lot of girls that it was before models had really started altering the way they look like now I think a certain kind of beauty that the western world deems as beautiful is accessible to everybody now right if you have enough money, which is why we love Kylie Jenner and why she's a billionaire is because we have watched her transformation. And even though we know we don't have Kardashian money, we understand that you can still, especially in a country like America that doesn't have, you know, the class system that we do. Or at least a different class system, because they always say that. But there are so many hierarchies in America that operate in a similar way.

Yes, there is. But it's not as old as ours. And it's used for different things. Do you know what I mean? Like, as our pyramid system is so old that you don't have to have money to belong in it, which I think is ridiculous, right? And that's the crafty pyramid. Whereas out there, if you don't have money, you're going back to the bottom of the pile and that's that. So like new money is new money is money. Whereas here, you know, my money is not worth as much as your title. Yeah. Right? Now it's changed where beauty is, or a certain kind of beauty is accessible, right? But back then, I think it was kind of like you was a bit of a genetic freak.

Plus there was an Instagram. And so you weren't, you didn't have to get any of your own followers and you didn't have to have a personality. You know, it was like that moment when you didn't know what Kate Moss of your own followers and you didn't have to have a personality. You know, it was like that moment when you didn't know what Kate Moss sounded like. So when you say back then, we're talking pre-internet, 80s, 90s.

Oh, no. I mean, look, I would say, yeah, before then my experience, I started modelling in the very late 90s up until I'd say I did my last modelling job in like 2015. Okay. Yeah.

And you were scouted while you were a bartender or working in a bar in Clapham? Yeah, yeah. I got scouted a few different times. Which bar was that? The Prince of Wales in Clapham. Great pub. I used to live in Clapham. Did you?

Yeah. Oh, did you used to go to the Prince of Wales? I didn't go to the Prince of Wales. Did you go to the Sun? No, I didn't go to pubs. I used to live in Clapham. Did you? Yeah. Oh, did you used to go to the Prince of Wales? I didn't go to the Prince of Wales. Did you go to the Sun? No, I didn't go to pubs. I was too... Cool. Maybe. Yes, cool. Yes, that's what it was. I went to a wine bar called...

Oh, what was it called? It was right next to Clapham Common Tube. I know exactly where you mean. It's on that little passage. Yeah, the retreat or something? Yeah, yeah, the little French place. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, in front of what is now a cinema. Yeah, is it still there? Yeah, it's still there.

Ah, I had some good times there. Yeah, it's lovely. In the wine bar. Even though I had nothing against pubs, but there was a point when I thought, oh, yeah, wine bar's a bit more upmarket, isn't it? It's a bit more grown up. And I was going out with someone who was a bit older than I was.

So I thought that would impress her. So it was like, I'm proper classy. I'm a wine guy. And then you get in a taxi and you're like, all right, geezer! Yeah, I would do my David Bowie accent. Yes, I'd like to go to Clapham South, please. How's your day been anyway?

What was it like being scouted? What was the scout like? Well, I got scouted a few times. I had this moment, I think when I was about 17, I modelled for a little bit, didn't make any money, shaved my hair off and I was just like, this is stupid. Like, I thought that was it. I thought that was my moment. Like I tried it, it didn't work. So I went back to work and then got scouted again by the same people from Select, which was the agency I was with the first time round. And this had happened, like, years later.

I was 19, I'd grown my hair into a big afro, and I guess something had just changed in the air as well. My face probably changed a bit because I was younger then. And yeah, they were like, do you want to try again? I really weren't that fussed because I already realised that I wasn't going to make that much money. And then they sent me to New York. I was only meant to be out there for two weeks.

And I made money in New York and I was like, I'm not leaving. Wow. What happened in those two weeks then? I think I booked Harper's Bazaar and then I booked some campaign and then I booked catalogue and the catalogue was like 12 grand a day. And I was like, are you, is everyone, is everyone all right? 12 grand a day. Like, you mean I can start getting like sandwiches with chicken and stuff like that in them let's go so yeah I didn't realize at the time that you know the modeling industry completely rips you off and it takes you 90 days to get paid you pay 30% tax off the back you 20% agency commission plus you pay their commission that they're taking off the client.

It's a scam. It's a weird pyramid scheme or, you know, scam, but it has all the sort of cachet that your young, fragile ego needs at that time. Yes. Meanwhile, you're in an incredibly glamorous environment. Yeah, yeah. But what did your friends and family think?

What did your ma and pa think? I mean, my mum was kind of like, yeah, make the most of it. Do you know what I mean? She wasn't worried that you were going to get corrupted? No, she'd given me a fair amount. Like, I was pretty streetwise by that point, to be honest. Like I'd left school early and my mum was like, you know, if you're not going to go to school, you've got to work, which I did. Yeah.

You could look after yourself. Well, probably better than most. No, I was still a kid. When I look back on it now, I'm like, man, I was really young to be living in a country like that on my own. I'm like, man, I was really young to be living in a country like that on my own. But how do you sort of who does all the business of helping you get a place and pay bills and all that stuff? You don't. All of this is it's funny because you're young and you look at your agents as adults.

So like they're the adults, but they're not. They're selling you. Right. And you and most of these girls are range especially at that time now there's a model alliance so in new york i think they just managed to make it so girls can't do fashion shows until they're 16 but that this has only happened the last couple of years you know you could model from 12 13 you'd be doing topless shoots and this that and whatever and you'd see girls in new york that were on their own it was wild so it's kind of it gets to be quite corrupt but you don't see it at the time and also you can't really talk to anyone about it because

everyone's like oh look at you you're a model now and you're like yeah but I don't know I don't know how my finances work I'm living in a country where you know a lot of people a lot of these girls didn't speak the language if someone says to you you you're getting a job and it's 10 grand for that day and you're 18 let's say and three months down the line, you get paid for it, but it's only three grand. It doesn't really matter because you're 18. Like, what are you going to do? You know what I mean? If I'd just gone from doing a job where I've made 20 pounds a shift and now I've got access to like more than a grand, you're rich, isn't it? Yeah. But it was enjoyable enough that you carried on doing it

for quite a while what were the fun parts of it um the fun parts of it was like you know the privilege of getting a lot of attention and um i would say beauty when it's framed in that way as it was then, like, it was like having a trust fund. Do you know what I mean? Especially for me, coming from a country that's very classist, it's like all of a sudden I was like, it's like being really posh or something. Yes.

The currency of beauty and youth, even if you don't understand it or you don't care about it, you're benefiting from it. And you know exactly how pretty you are because that's your day rate, right? So let's say my day rate's 10 grand. I'm 10 grand pretty. She is 50. 50 grand pretty. So she's 40 grand more than me of pretty yes she is i can see it like

there's something fucked up about it but there's something kind of magical about how like fashion is so shallow but it's wide in who it lets in right so like it looks like a lake, but it's the widest puddle ever, you know, in that people in different parts of the industry, because you're not talking about just the models themselves. passes gender race class this is why like even though we're in the western world from the 80s the 90s Naomi Campbell's our biggest model yes the fashion industry should be more diverse but it also goes to show the power of beauty the currency of it yes but within quite fixed parameters. Yes. A lot of which are outdated. Of course, of course. And not so much now. And this is what I mean about like that kind of like, I think we held it to a higher regard then

because it seems like only certain people could look certain ways. Whereas now we care more about following activism what that person's got to say body positivity inclusion and also there's surgery right so like the biggest models of the moment have altered their faces yes there's not the stigma that there was with altering your appearance in that way. And things like having tattoos means something different now than it did 10 years ago. Right, having nice teeth. Yeah. Yeah, like that used to be something that only the most rich could have,

to be able to afford braces and actually now in 2022 having veneers is almost quite like an Essex thing in it you know I mean having perfect teeth almost seems like it's like quite a working class thing the accessibility of these kind of you know fashions that come in and I don't think one thing or another about it, but it's just interesting because I've been inside an industry that seems like it was only a few could have a window in. And I've watched this change happen. And I've watched this, you know, the crossover where you've got Instagram models now

and girls that have got OnlyFans pages. And, you know, which I think's amazing because like why not agencies rip you off that's great that you don't have any barriers between you and making money from that person who wants your picture you know so it's been it's like fascinating yeah it is it's weird I mean there's a lot of So it's been, it's like fascinating. Yeah, it is. It's weird. I mean, there's a lot of hypocrisy, obviously, in it still. Massive amount of an industry that is trading on the way people look in that way.

And also just from a kind of practical point of view, the CO2 footprint of the fashion industry is a disaster. It's fucking disgusting. disgusting like it's disgusting but the human us as human beings we're obsessed we're obsessed you know what i mean like whether i've been in it or on the other side it's like we're obsessed with it so i yeah it is disgusting like what's kind of interesting now is that it just seems it's that kind of lifestyle, I guess, seems a bit more accessible. So maybe more people can see through it and not have to aspire to something so, like, vapid and empty. But whatever, if it brings you joy, innit? But yeah, no, it's mental.

It's crazy. And I definitely had some fun while I was doing it. I also felt empty. I also did a shit ton of coke. Do you know what I mean? Like all those things to try to like make it make sense. But you survived it. You didn't get dragged down by it.

I imagine it would be just incredibly easy to get completely fucked by it. Yeah, but you're not at war, Adam. Do you know what I mean? You're walking runways. Sure. fucked by it yeah but you know you're not at war adam do you know what i mean you walk in runways sure but if you have a little mental crisis and you see solace in the wrong people and the wrong drugs it only takes a few months for you to get yourself to a fairly bleak place yeah i think it's it's a really hard job to age out of what you hope right like the sweet spot of modeling would be that as your looks start to deplete your intellectual sort of property or your you know what you can put out should go up at some point they should meet in the middle and then what you have to offer intellectually

should surpass the evil job that gravity is trying to do on you right so like and it should be fine but I think if you like I got this joke on stage where I ingest I'm saying I used to be proper fit and like ah this is you know you think me and my 20s would be out here dancing like a fucking monkey trying to make you lot laugh. Never! And then I talk about that sort of privilege. And then I say, you know, there was a moment when I hit 35 and I remember thinking, I'm going to have to start working on my personality. Like, quick.

And it's in jazz, but I see it happen with a lot of, you know, people that I modelled with. It's what, air quotes, normal people, i.e. people who aren't models or who don't make a living out of the way they look. It's what they always imagine it must be like being amazing looking. You just sort of think, wow, it would be so great. But you fairly quickly, if you think it through you think actually it would be weird wouldn't it because you could never tell why people are being that way with you well the thing is is it's only weird if you haven't realized right right so that's why it can be really tricky because you

age out something and you're like oh my god it's like no one's even bothered about what I'm trying to say anymore. You know? Like, you know, that first time you go to a bar and you're like, oh, my God, I'm spending my own money buying my own drink for me to drink. What? You know, like, yeah. Why have I been moving so slow? It's taking ages for pages to load. It was like this when the engineer came He said it was fixed but now it's the same I'm taking a photo of my tea To put on my Instagram

Some people like to see the tea of another man People be dripping out tea, pick it Yorkshire brew and a nice picket But I can't upload Cause my Wi-Fi's too slow Come on Come on Are you on

You're on social media I'm on Instagram You're on Instagram right So you're not regularly getting into it on Twitter and stuff like that. I can't be on Twitter. Did you used to be? No, I had a Twitter account, but it's actually really hard to cancel your Twitter account.

It really is, isn't it? Yeah, it took a lot of work. And it's very easy to reactivate it by accident. Yeah, and I don't... I use Instagram. I'm on it. I'm a creeper. I'm one of those. I talk. I'm on it. I'm a creeper. I'm one of those.

I talk to my friends on it. I have a scroll, but I'm very reluctant to post and engage with people in that way. It actually gives me anxiety. Why? Because of the usual things, being misunderstood or? No, no, I just care instantly. And I'm like, this isn't good for my brain. Like, I'm in the isn't good for my brain like I'm

in the middle of writing a tv show like cannot be also now getting distracted with who likes me I can't like it's it crushes my brain and stops me being able to do any kind of like long form thinking and it kills my imagination because I've got this little... It's like a little bump of coke that I can keep on like... Oh, yeah, I feel good, I feel good. Who likes me? Oh, yeah, I'm chatting, I'm so funny. Oh, this is who I am. I'm this person.

I'm like, oh, do you know what you're not doing? Writing your fucking show, you absolute weirdo. Do you know what I mean? What do you use? None of them. No, I don't use any. I mean, I've got a YouTube channel. Yeah.

But as far as going on and reading about myself or reading comments, I don't do that anymore. And it's nice. But you've got, even on YouTube, though, you've got to be mindful of your sidebar. Do you watch a lot of stuff on YouTube? Yeah, and do you know, but they're all narcissism videos. Right, okay.

Yeah, I'm obsessed. What, videos about narcissism or videos about you? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, they're all videos about narcissism. What else? And then there's a few. What kind of videos about narcissism. What else? And then there's a few. What kind of videos about narcissism do you watch? Oh, man.

There's this doctor called Dr. Romany. And she does really long blinks like this. She's really like, she sort of uses it like how a politician points. You know? Yes. And she talks about all different kinds of narcissism she talks about borderline personality disorder she talks about um she goes really in depth with stuff and i i think i started to gravitate towards i've been in therapy for years my dad

is schizophrenic and my mom has borderline personality disorder and I've always just tried to and then it really started to as I got older I started to realize that I would go in for relationships that were felt familiar to me right because I found that comfort in and I was like why do I keep on ending up in sort of people that are very similar to personality traits in the people that I've grown up around? And I guess I tried to make sense of it, probably to stop me beating myself up so much about my choice. about my choice, do you know what I mean? To sort of not be completely accountable to like, oh, this is an equation and let me try and make it make sense.

And so any time I start to sort of, I guess, doubt myself, I try to look at these videos as a way of not having to probably take on accountability for my choices. Why? Because you're seeing descriptions of people that are worse than you? No, but trying to make sense of, I guess, things that when I was growing up I would take personally and actually going, no, these are just textbook traits with these kind of mental ailments. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? Why narcissism though? Was that something that a therapist once said that you suffered from or? Well, no, no. It's because I think I just sort of really had a, I really liked chaotic people. Yeah, sure, they're fun. Around me.

Yeah, they're really interesting, isn't it? They're fucking fun. And I started realising that. I was like, if someone was... Let's say if a friend turned round to me and said, do you want to go to the Tate on Sunday at one o'clock? If you said that to me, I'd look at you and think, oh, fuck off.

I'll say yeah, but I'm blatantly going to cancel it. But if you was to call me up Saturday night 2am go oh my god my wife's just kicked me out I need help moving my stuff now now now I haven't got any money can you come and meet me I'll be like I'm coming stay where you are this is what I'm talking about i feel alive i feel useful yeah you know what i mean so i i really and i have some of those traits myself of course you know i mean but um yeah i just found myself really like attracted to certain types of people and And I myself, I'm sure, have been that person to other people as well. You know, but just like, yeah, stimuli, a lot of it. And when did you start entering that world of thinking about all these things?

Did you ever talk to your parents about it when you were growing up? Were they ever straightforward with you about things that they were dealing with? Yeah, I think with my dad we always knew because we just watched him get progressively worse. And it's quite sad, actually, because it is part of the migrant experience, especially where I grew up. So I grew up in Brixton and grew up in Streatham, South London. So Lambeth has the highest concentration

of black schizophrenic men in the whole of Europe, when we were part of Europe. So, you know, a lot of these things are really... I guess if he'd been born in a different time or we were working with a different system, maybe he would have been diagnosed with something else and would have been assisted more by the state, you know. But back then, it was like, I guess,

something that just made him more pushed to the fringes of society, right? And how did it affect him day to day? I mean, I don't know. I'm not him. But I can imagine that it was quite isolating. But as far as you, from your perspective? From my perspective, I mean, I think when someone's in psychosis, they're in psychosis as a protection, right? So how did he cope with it day to day?

He believed what was happening around him. And in many, many ways still does now. So I don't, I'm not sure. I can only kind of, how I've tried to make sense of it is I'm like, I think sometimes psychosis is just like your brain flatlining and trying to keep you safe because everything is quite chaotic. Is my, you know, just from what I've taken from seeing things. Or maybe I'm coming to that conclusion because it suits me. I don't know, you know, just from what I've taken from seeing things. Or maybe I'm coming to that conclusion because it suits me.

I don't know, you know. And what encouraged you to get therapy yourself then? Oh, because I was, you know, what I was starting to do is, like, I think in my teens I started to, like, my, I went to a school that was all right, actually, and I remember they got me, like, I went to a school that was all right, actually. And I remember they got me, like, a psychiatrist because I grew up living in a women's refuge. And so I was quite far from the school that I was in.

And, you know, my school was aware of it and, you know, all of these kind of things. And I truanted a lot. And they tried to do things to actually help me and I started to realise it's almost like I couldn't take on board the help that I was being offered or maybe I wasn't emotionally developed enough to understand what was going on and so I kind of decided to view it as a bit of a joke. And I started to understand that I could manipulate these situations. Right. So rather than using that therapy session that they were giving me, I was like, I have got an hour of learning. This is great. You suckers.

Yeah. yeah and then I think when I when I started modeling um I started to use my upbringing and certain family situations as an excuse to behave badly you know what I mean and then and then I don't think I really sort of addressed it. I think I still sort of kept on doing that. If someone brought some stuff up to me, I would, like, load on, you know, a shot pot of trauma and be like, yeah, well, that! And it's sort of like, if you've got enough sense to be able to package this up and serve it back,

well, how traumatising is it then? So at this point, you're using it as an excuse. You have all the, you know, I had all the tools to go and kind of start working through it. But there was like a childish tantrum I could feel where I was like, you know, it's not fair that I've got to sort this out. And, you know, I don't want to have to be accountable. I still want to blame other people for stuff.

And so I started, you know, just doing a lot of escapism, smoking loads of weed. I always smoke weed. And then, you know, did pills. And then recreationally did coke. And, you know what I mean? It was just like, and then a lot of, like, prescription pills and stuff like that.

I think I got to a point where I was like, I've got to go to therapy. Yeah. Because there's no one to blame anymore. I can't be bringing this up to my parents. Their job is done. Yeah, yeah. I always think of that thing that Robin Williams used to say as well,

which is, if your kids can afford their own therapy, you've done all right. Yeah. They're proud. Yeah. It proud. Yeah. It's an achievement, right? I bought you a present. Did you?

Yeah. Do you drink? I mean, yeah. I don't want to give you anything that's going to get you off the wagon or in bad habits or that you just... Bless. No, I will take your drink. Thank you.

You don't have to have any now. Exactly. That's what I'm thinking. I'm not drinking at the moment, but I'm like, give me, give me, give me. Plus, you can re-gift if you want. I would never. And this is good booze. But I'm going to be completely honest with you and say that...

You're gifting me something. You're re-gifting, aren't you? No, I'm not re-gifting. I bought... Did you? Thank you. But I did buy it for myself. Have you just decided to give it to me right now?

No, I decided a while back. I decided a while back when I knew that we were going to meet. I thought, oh, you know what that we were going to meet. I thought, oh, you know what? I'm going to get that. That's my last bottle of a quite expensive brand of cognac that I've been drinking that I discovered in the lockdown. Regular listeners to this podcast will know that I had a little bit before I interviewed Sarah Silverman and regretted it because I don't think it agrees with me. It is incredibly delicious stuff. Do you like cognac? I'm not a big cognac drinker,

but that's kind of why it's perfect then. Yeah, so you don't need to be. You're just sipping this stuff, right? A little nip. It's a tiny little nip situation, and it's incredibly delicious. So sometimes that sort of booze, whiskey or whatever, I always found it too much, too fiery and harsh.

I'd rather a beer or something like that. Thank you so much. But this is delicious. My dad used to like it, so I'd always get him an expensive bottle at Christmas, and that was the last brand that I got him, the last Christmas that he was around. And then during the lockdown it was

still sat there gathering dust not that bottle but the bottle that I bought him and it was only half drunk and I had some I thought maybe cognac's my nature look at me I'm a cognac man now and I had some great great times with the cognac lots of ice and yeah because you get a very different buzz off it also there's nothing like getting lashed and telling yourself you're being sophisticated yes you know like when you can paint a whole new persona onto just getting on the piss i wasn't thinking i wasn't thinking of it in those terms well no no oh i'm sorry i wasn't thinking of it in those terms. No, no. Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't on the lash with the cognac.

I was savouring the cognac. I was appreciating it. I was communing with the cognac. I was seeing you in a nice woolly jumper. Yes. Fire crackling. My loyal dog Rosie at my side. Dog by your feet.

My wife brushing my hair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know the bins are getting taken. It's tomorrow they're coming and you're like, don't you worry, I've got this sorted. Will you let me finish my cognac? Get up, chuck it into the fireplace. Your infernal nagging woman has ruined another delicious cognac.

So that's what you've got to look forward to. Wait, this is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes it looks very professional I love browsing your videos and pics and I don't want to stop and I'd like to access your members area and spend in your shop these are the kinds of comments people will say about your website if you build it with squarespace just visit squarespace.com buxton

for a free trial and when you're ready to launch because you will want to launch. Use the offer code BUXTON to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So put the smile of success on your face with Squarespace. Yes. Continue. Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was Michelle Desuarte talking to me there. I really enjoyed meeting Michelle. Hope I get to see her and talk to her again sometime.

I look forward to seeing whatever she's working on. So thanks to her for giving up her time to talk to me. Thanks as well to Rachel and to Mark for sorting out the room where we recorded. Much appreciated. Yeah, I'm going to actually have to deliver some music soon aren't I I'm also supposed to be doing more writing trying to write another book

so my plan is to put the podcast on pause for a few months next year and get some of those done now there might be some of you out there thinking no don't waste your time with that other stuff And get some of those done. Now there might be some of you out there thinking. No don't waste your time with that other stuff. It's not going to turn out well.

Just carry on doing the podcast. Even if you're not thinking it. I am. But still. You've got to give these things a good old go. Don't you? Plus. Everyone's been nice to me at DECA i have to i have to uh deliver something hey speaking of which quite a few of you over the

last few months have got in touch to offer your services and your help with my musical efforts i've tried to respond to as many of those messages as I can, but I'm sure some of them have slipped through the cracks. But I really appreciate it. It's so kind of you. Thank you. I hope I'll be able to take up some of those offers at some point. For the moment, I'm ploughing on more or less solo, making my own mistakes.

But I do have a couple of people who've been helping me out recently. Musical collaborators who I hope to reconnect with in the new year. And I hope they'll help me finish off what I've been working on. And for better or worse, it'll finally see the light of day in 2023. But first, there's the rest of 2022 to go. I've got another quite a few episodes of the podcast to put out. Five, I think, and that's including the Christmas Day episode with Joe Cornball's Cornish.

I think at the beginning of this episode, you will have heard a message about contributing to the Christmas episode. And that message included an address for submissions which is also on the front page of my blog, adam-buxton.co.uk. Probably I don't need to say this, but the Christmas podcast I do with Joe every year is in the style of our old six music shows. Somewhat. In that we include a few messages like made up jokes and traveling tales and little submissions that we used to have on the six music show. Things like that. But you can send in other stuff including bits of audio however the main thing is to keep it all short we're recording next week me and joe this time next week i think so you've got a week to send stuff in if you want

and as i said on the message please don't send in any any stuff that you wouldn't feel comfortable having read out don't send in any kind of work emails or personal confessions or critiques or anything like that just keep it focused on the Christmas, if you don't mind. Full disclosure, I still haven't actually bought any presents for Joe. He's always better at getting Christmas gifts than I am. I haven't seen him for ages, actually, so I'm looking forward to catching up with Cornballs next week. Thanks in advance if you do send stuff in.

Remember as well, though, that, you know, we only read out quite a small handful of bits and pieces. So, you know, please don't be disappointed if you send something in that isn't read out. OK, it's properly dark now, although there's some very nice light pollution over Norwich Way and there's a big fair quite nearby. And that's lighting up the sky quite effectively.

It's like Las Vegas over there on the horizon. Thank you very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his excellent production support. Thanks to Helen Green. She does the artwork for the podcast, don't you know? for his excellent production support. Thanks to Helen Green. She does the artwork for the podcast, don't you know? Thanks to ACAST for their continued support with everything. But a very special thank you goes out to you,

without whom there just wouldn't be any point. Let's have a dark hug. Hey. Hope you're doing all right. And until next time, we share the same out of space. Take the best of care and do bear in mind, I love you. Bye! Bye. ស្រូវាប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប់ប� Thank you.