THE ADAM BUXTON PODCAST - EP.30 - MICHAELA COEL

Episode Date: September 21, 2016

Adam talks to Michaela Coel, writer and star of BAFTA winning TV sitcom 'Chewing Gum', about bodily functions, finding and misplacing God, and sex clubs, (amongst other things) with frequently coarse and explicit language!!! Thanks to Seamus Murphy-Mitchell for production support Music and jingles by Adam Buxton Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan. Rosie? Rosie! Come here.

No, I'm not going to come here. I'm gambling in the field so you can stick that up your arse. Hey, how you doing, podcats? Adam Buxton here. Thank you so much for joining me for another podcast. It's a beautiful day. Oh, what a beautiful morning. Oh, what a beautiful...

That's one of the beautiful day songs you can sing. You can also sing... The sun has got his hat on, hip hip hip hooray, the sun has got his hat on and it's coming out to play. Then there was just a long period where no Beautiful Day songs were written until U2's Beautiful Day. It's a beautiful day. I mean, of course, there are others, but those are the ones that pop into my mind. Beautiful day. I mean, it's hardly, oh, what a beautiful morning, is it?

That's not to impugn the genius of U2 in general, just to say that there's a gap in the market for another tuneful, beautiful day song. Lovely day, lovely day, lovely day, a lovely day. That's a good one, isn't it? I mean, there are lots of them, but there's always room for more. That's what I'm saying. Listen, how are you doing, listeners? Thank you so much for tuning in, downloading.

It's podcast number 30. That doesn't seem very many, does it? Seeing as the podcast has now been plopping out irregularly for about a year or so. But to me, it seems like a lot. And this episode of the podcast features a rambly conversation with British actor, writer, poet, singer-songwriter, et cetera, et cetera, Michaela Cole, currently aged 28. Michaela grew up in East London and read English at university before attending the Guildhall School of Music and Drama, where she graduated in 2012.

She wrote her first play, Chewing Gum Dreams, that same year, and it ended up being produced at several major theatres, picking up a few awards along the way, before ending up at the National Theatre's Shed venue in 2014. By that time, Michaela had appeared in two other productions at the National and went on to appear in a fourth, Medea, at the Olivier. Her play Chewing Gum Dreams was a 45 45 minute semi-autobiographical monologue based in part on michaela's childhood in tower hamlets her character tracy gordon

talked in a frank and funny way about boys friendship school and sex. So Chewing Gum Dreams was, of course, turned into a very funny sitcom by Channel 4. And the first series of that aired last year, 2015, in October, I think, on E4. And earlier this year, Michaela picked up the Best Female Comedy Performance BAFTA for her performance in Chewing Gum. Previous winners of that award include Jessica Hines,

Katherine Parkinson, Olivia Colman, Joe Brand, Jennifer Saunders, so they don't give it to morons. They have their own awards. They're called the Oscars.'m joking now doing this podcast was the first time that I've met Michaela which I was keen to do having been impressed like so many people by Chewing Gum and we talked in an office of the London production company that makes that show about the business of writing Chewing Gum all on her own, her first TV show, and she wrote it on her own. It seems extraordinary to me.

We also talked about how Michaela found God and then mislaid God. And there's a very detailed description of a trip to a sex club. But I began by asking Michaela what she had been doing that morning. It was the early afternoon by the time we spoke. And that's a brilliant interviewing trick, by the way. You say, so what have you been doing today? And then they start to tell you. And then you suddenly have a conversation on your hands. And that's what happened with us. It's clever stuff, isn't it? I think I invented that.

But it didn't take long before Michaela's responses to that question became not only fruity, but also spicy. Basically, what I'm saying is if you're not in the mood for a large helping of coarse language and a side order of quite detailed descriptions of sex and bodily functions, perhaps now would be a good time to enjoy one of the many other podcasts in the giant podcast bin. But if you're happy with all that, here we go. So I had a podcast with Jonathan Harden in the morning, and then I've got one with you now, and then I'm meeting a production company after this

to talk about a potential next project. Then I'm back in the edit here until around 8 or 9pm. And you're editing...? Chewing Gum series 2. Right. Yeah. And that's six parts again, is it? Yes. Once again, written and starring yourself, written by? Yes, yeah, yeah. Do you write with anyone else on that show?

No. Really? No. Oh, my God. Lonely train. Lonely train. So how do you find that, though? I mean, you've been writing for a long time. When did you start writing?

What, TV? I mean, just in general. Oh, in general, I started writing in 2007. I was a poet, so I was writing, like, page-long poems. Then I wrote my first kind of long thing, which was a one-woman show in 2012. Yeah. And then...

And that was Chewing Gum Dreams. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then I got the commission to do the TV show in 2014. Right. I haven't written that much, actually. But the live version, Chewing Gum Dreams, am I right in thinking that was more of a monologue?

Yeah, complete monologue. Just one person. I played, like, maybe ten different characters. And it's quite, It's not really comedy. It's kind of dark. Uh-huh. Yeah. And how long was that? Was that an hour or something? 15 minutes.

Yeah. I said it really slightly. Yeah. And then how did you make the transition, then, from doing that to actually writing sort of structured narrative episodes with all kinds of different characters? I mean, that's a big leap, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, that was really hard. A woman called Kelly McGovern read my play and she thought, do you want to try and develop it into TV? And we got... I wrote, like, a 20-minute taster, which is not an episode of TV. It's just like a welcome to this world.

And that was what got me the blaps that was also quite easy because it's just two five minute scenes and then phil clark who's the head of comedy said do you want to write a tv show and i by then was like yeah and then said, do you want to write by yourself? And I went, yeah, yeah. And there was 41 drafts of the first episode. Oh, wow. It was really hard. Yeah. I spent a lot of that time just crying on the floor.

Because it's like, you're in the dark, and you're trying to aim where they want you to aim, but I've got no idea how to do it. It was really, really, really hard. So you were going back and forth with the commissioners at Channel 4, and they were giving you notes? Well, yeah, from them, but also from Retort, who produced the show. So they'd go through my execs and through the channel.

And then I did do all six, but they were messy. Well, they weren't messy. There wasn't a clear, familiar comedy structure to the episodes. And I couldn't get it. Didn't understand. Because basically all my plots from episode one finished in episode six. So it was kind of like a movie. Right, like a miniseries.

Yeah, I didn't even write commercial breaks. I didn't understand anything. Yeah. So then they brought on a guy called Andrew Ellard, who's a script editor. Sure, I know Andrew. Yes, and I see him as like a master of structure. He kind of, he's like a puzzle.

And he basically was like, look, so you've got basically all these storylines that start in episode one and finish in episode six. What we're going to do is take that long storyline and we're going to squash that and make it one episode. Then take that one there and make that one episode by itself. And it was like a puzzle, and it was easy because the storylines were already there,

they were just existing all at the same time going through all the episodes. So we just picked them up and made it all about this one storyline. And since then I've learnt. Right. And where are you getting a lot of these ideas from? Are they things that you remember from your own childhood or are they stories that have been told to you since then? And either I think either something has happened to me or I have done something that would probably do quite well in a comedy because I go through a lot of embarrassing things. I don't know why these things happen to me but they do. Yeah.

I go through a lot of embarrassing things. I don't know why these things happen to me, but they do. Yeah. Or I think, oh, what if Tracy's cousin fancies her? I don't know where those thoughts come from. Maybe a travelling place. But it doesn't feel like one. It just feels like I'm just... Yeah.

My mind's a little bit weird. Give me an example, then, of the kind of embarrassment that befalls you on a regular basis. OK, I've got many. So I can... The morning after pill, there's an episode in the first series where she goes to try and get the pill from the pharmacist. That is completely based on a real-life situation. I didn't have sex, but, like, we, like, dry-humped a bit... Yeah.

..with our clothes on. And I was... really thought I could get pregnant how old were you oh how old was I when I did that how old was I I must have been a virgin right so I would have been 15 okay yeah I would have been 15 which I can't believe I would have gone there that young I would have gone to the pharmacist because I was really, you know, I was late to telephone. And I explained to them what happened. Yeah. And I didn't get the pill.

No, of course. Also, very recently, I was flat hunting after I broke up with my boyfriend and had to move out. And I was in Hampstead Heath looking for a flat to go and have an interview and I needed to go to the toilet and long story short I ended up wetting myself outside somebody's front door

this is like 2 o'clock on a sunny afternoon and of course they came home as I was wetting myself in front of their door mate things like that happened to me and there was no room there was no toilet place there was no pub it was like a row of houses i tried two houses saying can i pee they wouldn't let me come in and pee so what else do you do what else can you do but wet yourself what about a receptacle of some kind a receptacle what's that like a or a cup. But what if you don't have a bottle or a cup? And there's no shops?

There's not a bin or anything? There's no bin. It's like a row of... Unless I pee in someone's bin, you know, the little bins that they've got outside there. And how am I going to go and sit in the bin? No, I don't think you don't... No, I'm not suggesting you should sit in the bin.

OK. But if it was me, like, in my stressful pee-pee times, it's always been that I found a plastic bottle or a cup or something. Yeah, but also, though, Adam, listen to me. When you have a vagina, this is really different. I can pee into a bottle with my vagina. But also, at two o'clock in the afternoon, can I discreetly piss into a bottle? I'm not saying it's ideal.

So did you calculate in your mind, I'm going to have to piss myself? Yeah. And you thought, well, it's a sunny day, I can dry quickly. No, I mean, no. And actually, the thing is, right, I didn't, here's the thing, here's the thing, here's the thing. I didn't have any knickers on. Oh.

And I had a dress on. Right. So all I had to do was part my legs. OK. And pee. So when I say that the woman came home, the woman came home and visibly saw me pissing on her doorstep. Oh, right.

Yeah. This actually happened last year. Last year. What did she say? She said, have you just come here to piss yourself? And I said, I'm so sorry, I was desperate. And she gave me a look. Could you not even

go in the bushes there was no bushes honestly there was no bushes it was literally like what the fuck am I going to there was there was nowhere

I was looking for anything discreet yeah I don't want to piss myself in public I want to hide couldn't find anywhere to hide

and I just thought if I just stand at this door and just press these buttons it would look like I'm trying to get in this place and I'm just going to pee. Meanwhile. And she happened to come home. Fucking hell. I'm sorry.

Yeah. Two days ago, I was on my period and got blood all over my ass in Shoreditch House. Because that's the kind of thing I do. A lady just came and told me. I'm so sorry. In Shoreditch House, that's par for the course. Is it really, though? It's probably people staring and going,

oh, wow, Michaela's... So radical. She's got a period there, and she's just bled right onto her clothes. That's cool. She's such a feminist. Yeah. I think maybe I'm going to do that.

Oh, maybe I was free-bleeding. Free-bleeding? Yeah, that's what they call it. Free-bleeding, where you don't wear a pad or a tampon. I've never heard of it. You just fucking deal with it. Yeah, I've got a period. I'm a woman.

What do you want? Free-bleed in your face. You don't wear a pad or a tampon. I've never heard that. You just fucking deal with it. Yeah, I've got period. I'm a woman. What do you want? Free bleed in your face. Yeah, it was a big thing before the tampon tax got scrapped. Right. Yeah, but it has been scrapped now, which is amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I still can't get it right.

Tampon tax is gone. I'm still bleeding through my pants. Still free bleeding and weeing on people's doorsteps. Yeah, fucking hell, man. That's good. Right, let's go again what don't you fucking understand kick your fucking ass let's go again what the fuck is it with you i want you off the fucking set you prick no you're a nice guy the fuck are you doing no don't shut me up no no like this no no don't shut me up like this fuck sake man you're amateur seriously man you and me we're fucking done professionally i suppose the things

that intrigue people on a regular basis about you which it would be interesting to talk about briefly if you don't mind are the fact that you grew up quite religious, or at least you found religion at a certain point in your teens. Yes. I'm curious to know, as someone who's not very religious, how that happened. And your parents are Ghanaian, right? Yeah, yeah.

And so how would you characterise a typical Ghanaian? Is religion important for the average? Oh, well, I don't know about the average average I have a feeling my mum wasn't the average because a she would when we were younger she'd make us go to a catholic church but she never came with us and on new years and christmas she'd pray quite loudly in quite like an evangelical way I have this memory of her like chucking salt over her shoulder, which clearly isn't Catholic. But religion wasn't really a thing.

We had to make our holy communion, but my mum wasn't Catholic. I think she's probably just scared of what London was and sent us to places like that because she saw it as safe. I was 17 and, you know, I went to quite a hilarious but shit school. And you grew up in Tower Hamlets. Tower Hamlets, yeah. I can really say this is true on reflection,

but I think I was at, you know, the crossroads, as they say, and people were either having babies, people were dying, people were really smart, they went on to become doctors, like the two people that I knew, whatever. And I hadn't made any solid choice. I didn't particularly like anything apart from maybe sociology. And what were you into at that point?

Did you listen to music or were you into comedy and stuff or anything like that? No, I wasn't into comedy. I liked music. I like music a lot. But I definitely wasn't singing. I wasn't a poet. I was just... So you didn't have one governing passion? Maybe sociology. OK.

But that was that. And they actually, they showed this... The Christian Union in my college screened this DVD called The Truth Behind Hip-Hop, which was basically about the fact that all of these, like, artists, these, like, urban American artists are agents of Satan, basically. OK. And it was really scary. Yeah.

Really great scare tactics to scare people into going to church. And I watched it and I was scared, but I didn't go to church. And then I met a girl who was in the year above and we just started hanging out. By this point, I had dropped out of college anyway, and she started taking me to dance classes. And then I soon found out it was a Christian dance group, but I wasn't Christian.

But I liked the dance groups, I just pretended to be a Christian. What was Christian about the dancing? You know what, I think it's the music. They're just dancing to Christian music. And it's obviously not, like, overly sexy. It's all about, like, being reborn in Christ, like, all of the dance. And actually, some of these dances are fucking amazing. Yeah.

But it tells a story of coming out of the darkness into the light, basically. Okay. And so I just pretended to be a Christian for a while. Then I met a girl in, like, an Easter Sunday service who came up to me and said, I've got a message from God for you. Yeah. And I said, OK. And she said, God said,

you're doing all of the external things, but you haven't got to know God for yourself. And actually, she was right. I'm not Christian anymore, but she was right. Yeah. And then I went back to that church, to her church, and I ended up, you know, the pastor says, if you don't know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour,

please raise your hand. And I shot my hand up in the know, the pastor says, if you don't know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, please raise your hand. And I shot my hand up in the air, ran to the altar, fell on the floor crying. I think mainly because I was like, there's a God that loves me and wants me to take care of myself. Why am I not doing that? It was that kind of feeling all this

time. I haven't been loving myself when God loves me and he wants me to love myself, something like that. And after that, that's how I found God, really. And that brought me straight into writing poetry about God. Some of those feelings that you had that made you want to go and embrace God, to get to know God, as it were, and to go there and literally cry at the altar, was it? Yeah, I mean, it was something that everybody remembers from that church when Michaela got saved.

I mean, can you analyse those feelings and can you analyse what it was in you that brought you to that place? There's something open to the atmosphere. It's like when you're in a concert, a music concert, and you know when the person is amazing and everybody's feeling the same thing? It's that, but it just happens to be about God and the Holy Spirit.

And it's something quite terrifying about that feeling when you're in the kind of church that i went to it's such a strong presence that everybody makes that it's scary and when you're not when you know it's very simple all you have to do is raise your hand and then this feeling of fear it's not that you're going to hell it's that you're going to be going to heaven god's going to take you under his wing it's kind of like maths it's just like of course i going to hell, it's that you're going to be going to heaven, God's going to take you under his wing. It's kind of like maths, it's just like, of course, I want to be on God's side. So you're no longer alone, you're no longer vulnerable in the same way that you were before?

Yeah, you have a family now, a family in Christ, we all believe the same thing, we've got your back. Now, you know, you're going to talk to God and he's going to talk to you, you're going to have a friend, you're going to talk to God and he's going to talk to you. You're going to have a friend. You're going to have something certain. You don't have to think or question what happens when you die. This is all, it all happens at one time. Right. And you give yourself over to it completely.

And how did your family feel about it? They were really worried. I've got a sister. Yeah. A mum. Your father wasn't around at that point. No. Well, was he around? No, he'd gone to Ghana by now. I've never lived with my dad. And I have a half-brother. Yeah. A mum. Your father wasn't around at that point. No. Well, was he around? No, he'd gone to Ghana by now.

Right. I've never lived with my dad. And I have a half-brother. Yeah. And they were really worried about me. They thought you'd just lost your shit. Yeah. Right.

And, you know, I was seeing a guy at the time. We'd not had sex yet. But he also thought you belong in a straitjacket kind of thing. And now my mum and my sister are very deep in church. The boyfriend that I had is now a pastor. And that's kind of your influence now my mum and my sister are very deep in church the boyfriend that i had is now a pastor and that's kind of your influence right yeah yeah you've more or less converted them there's a good i've got a couple of people i've converted and they're still there and that's um pentecostal christianity yes and so that's a big part of that isn't it is bringing other people

into that world yeah because your blood their blood will be on your hands if you don't. Right. And then I went to drama school and it didn't last. And why didn't it last? Well, first, I think you need to maintain that kind of belief. You have to really spend time with people that also believe the same thing. You've got to read the Bible every day, you've got to pray every day to kind of activate the belief.

But I was rubbing up really close with people who were not Christian. And in drama school, you can't just pretend to be connected with people. It's 23 people for three years. And you're physically rubbing up, you're rolling over them, you're crying with them. Pretending to be paper bags together. You know, exactly. Pretending to be lions and, like, making dens making dens pretending to enter the earth for the first time and touch somebody's skin

and stuff like that yeah and you know i'm with people that are having sex before marriage i'm with people who are buddhists gays people i'm with everyone and none of the stuff was making sense that i learned which is that these people need help. And I was supposed to tell them about Jesus, but instead they were teaching me stuff. I needed those people. I was making friends. Friends where I don't need to help you. I just like you.

So then I'd go to church and I'd listen to the sermon and I didn't believe it anymore. And then I felt go to church and I'd listen to the sermon and I didn't believe it anymore and then I felt like a liar I'm sat there and I could you know it feels like there's a spotlight on you everyone knows you're a liar everyone knows you're a liar and pretty much that day I remember the pastor saying you know as he preaches like stand up like you know rise from your seat or uh you'll be left behind when he jesus comes back and i couldn't actually get up from my seat and everybody else was standing i was sitting there going and i never went back that was it and did the pastor talk to you afterwards or no i did message him to say i want to talk about stuff i've got questions um we're supposed to meet and uh it didn't happen

never heard from him again and i was you know i was at his house for christmas and stuff yeah what a shame and then were you able though to hang on to certain elements of what you had there that were useful for you and comforting for you or did you feel as if you had to just turn your back on that whole world? No, there is definitely something about... There's a joy in church. There's a love, a way of loving, you know, with your church people. And I have kept that with me. And there's things in the Bible I still totally believe about loving other people loving yourself

I still pray sometimes I just have no idea of what who I'm praying to or why that that would be it really though I yeah I didn't become like an evil person now that I don't believe in the Bible anymore I just don't believe that if you're not a Christian, you're going to this place called hell and all this kind of stuff. And so you mentioned at the time you got into poetry, that's when you started writing poetry. Yeah. Do you still write poetry?

No. Do you not? No, simply because... Because you're expressing yourself in a different way with your show and stuff like that, I guess. Yeah, it's a muscle. I was able to write because I kept writing. Yeah, it's a muscle. I was able to write because I kept writing. I think everything is just practice.

Belief in God is practice. And I don't practice it anymore. Okay. I'm sure I could start again, but now there's not a lot of time to be dilly-dallying trying to write poetry. I saw you on YouTube doing a thing. Oh, no, you did not. Please don't.

Come on, there's some good stuff there Oh no don't, no, no It shouldn't be online What are you most embarrassed about on YouTube? Oh, what am I most Well the thing I saw was good Makes me cringe in my heart Yeah actually

All my most embarrassing ones I've asked the people to not Let it be visible. I did a music video on time. Uh-huh. Which, I don't know. Because you made an album. I made two.

Fixing Barbie. Fixing Barbie. And what was the other one? That was your first one. Well, yeah, the first, I did an EP first called May the 22nd. Okay. Which I thought was good at the time. And now that I look back,

my friend played me a couple of seconds of it and I wanted to vomit in my mouth. Fixing Barbie, I am very proud of. I love that album. I love that album, I actually think it's good. And it's sort of funny stuff, deconstructing feminism and attitudes to women. Yeah, I didn't know it was feminism at the time.

Didn't even think about what feminism was. was wasn't a word in my vocabulary yeah it was about self-worth and but the sense of humor is definitely there absolutely yeah yeah and um the thing I saw on YouTube that I really liked was it's called uh Michaela Cole the poet at the Upshop lawn. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Next. I think it's called Next. Next. Yeah. Is that the poem?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what, 2009? That is 2009, yeah. And it's really good because you come out. Can you describe it? I'm talking to, like, casting directors. Yeah. And I'm saying if you need whatever you need, I've got it. Because it sounds, at first you come out and you sort of say,

oh, I'm also an actor. I haven't got. Cause it sounds at first you come out and you sort of say, Oh, I'm, I'm also an actor. I haven't watched work recently. My phone's been cut off. So if there are any casting directors, and so at first it's like a little bit cringy because you're thinking, what is she doing? This is a bit desperate,

but then you go, then it starts rhyming. And then you realize that it's a poem and, and, and you're talking about what you're willing to do yeah uh as an actor to to get a to get a part not only as an actor but as a woman of color yeah and all the kind of roles that you are expected to yeah to do and all the cliched yeah yeah and that was actually that's before i went to drama school yeah that was like ages ago

uh yeah and i did that, actually, I did a play called Blurred Lines at the National. Uh-huh. And I put that poem into that play. It was improvised. Right. So I still, yeah, it was only two years ago. I was still...

That's good. Still banging that out, yeah. I loved it. Blurred Lines, not anything to do with the song. Yeah, it was an improvised play about feminism and the blurred lines of sexual consent. Right. Yeah. It's a tough song. Yeah, it was an improvised play about feminism and the blurred lines of sexual consent. Right. Yeah.

It's a tough play. Yeah. It's all about feminism. I didn't know what feminism was until I did that play. And this was 2014? 14. OK. February 2014.

But, yeah, we spent, like, four or five weeks working with Carrie Cracknell and Nick Payne, who wrote Constellations. And I understood that I was a woman. I didn't know that before i was as i said to them i said i'm a bit busy being black i didn't and i was like oh fuck you look back and you're like shit it is ever so slightly different being a woman it's tiny it is something about being a woman. I didn't realise. Yeah, yeah. What were the big things for you that were like an epiphany? Honestly, honestly, it's tough. It was to do with sexual consent.

Mm-hm. So you felt differently about relationships and encounters you'd had? Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad i did that play because you know there were things to come in my life that i wouldn't have been able to survive had i not done that play as in people you met who you would have treated differently well a that i mean look at this industry i mean as recently as I remember being at the BAFTA after I won a fucking award.

Yeah. And a producer... Congratulations, by the way. Thanks, man. A producer who I wanted to work with, I was very close to working with, but I didn't know. We'd just spoken through ages and stuff.

Decided to say, do you know I want to fuck you right now. No, those actual words? Those exact words. And it's true, because I, through my agents, I spoke to them just to say I'm not working with you ever again because of what he said. There's no argument about it.

Was he just hammered out of his mind or something? Yeah, I think, you know, that's the power of alcohol. Right, and he in his mind thought that that would be a funny thing to say or a cool thing to say or... I've got absolutely no idea. Wow. I've also been at a thing where I've taken a friend of mine

and a person who is not black has, in jest, called him the N-word. And this is a... It's a constant reminder that, you know, being black and being a woman is not seamless. Yeah, yeah. God, that's shocking. Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. Right. Memo to self. Don't use that line at BAFTAs. Yeah, don't use that line at BAFTA. With anyone, I'd say.

Don't use that line at BAFTAs. Yeah, don't use that line at BAFTA with anyone, I'd say. We're halfway through the podcast. I think it's going really great. The conversation's flowing like it would between a geezer and his mate. All right, mate. Hello, geezer. I'm pleased to see you.

Ooh, there's so much chemistry. It's like a science lab of talking. I'm interested in what you said. Thank you. There's fun chat and there's deep chat. It's like Chris Evans is meeting Stephen Hawking. I saw you talking about music the other day, and you mentioned that you were... Tracy in Chewing Gum is a big Beyonce freak.

Yes. But you're more of a Rihanna person. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that right? Don't tell Beyonce, though. I'm still hoping I might meet her one day. I'm going to be Beyonce's friend one day. Sure.

No. Yeah, you know why? Because I find Rihanna a lot less media trained. Mm-hm. Less slick. She's less slick. Beyonce's almost like the first lady. She's so composed.

Yeah, but I would even say the first lady, the current first lady, is a bit more transparent than Beyonce herself. She's very regal. Very, very... I wouldn't even say regal. I love Beyonce. I'm a big i'm a big i'm a beyonce fan yeah i bow to beyonce but she she is regal but it's uh she does not reveal much at all

uh but because i simply want to know her she doesn't allow me but But Rihanna does. I can, you know, as I said, I can imagine Rihanna on the toilet taking a shit. Yeah. I don't see poo coming out of Beyonce's arse. I can't see... I can't see an arsehole. Don't think she has one. No, it's just sort of gas that...

And it smells great. Yeah, exactly. It smells amazing. Yeah, she just emits a smell of roses. It smells of hit. Yeah, it smells of. Yeah, exactly. It smells amazing. Yeah, she just emits a smell of roses. Smells of hit. Yeah, smells of hit. Of success. Pure hit. And how do you feel then about Rihanna's...

when she gets all kind of... Like the video for Needed Me, yeah? I haven't seen it yet. Have you not? No, no. Well, it's directed by Harmony Corrine. Do you know his stuff? No.

He did a film called Spring Breakers and Gummo and Kids back in the day. And he makes a lot of films that are quite edgy and often have controversial subject matter. And sometimes it feels a little bit like he's just pushing buttons for the sake of it sometimes. He's good. I mean, his films are always interesting. buttons for the sake of it sometimes he's good i mean his films are always interesting but um the video for needed me is it's all slow motion and she's wandering around in a cool big apartment

with big windows looking out over the city and it's uh beautiful and she's got like a kind of uh negligee on and you can basically see her boobs underneath quite clearly and she has a big gun and it's all just fetishy in a really lame way with with guns and boobs and she goes into a nightclub and basically ends up shooting this bad looking man who's got lots of tattoos and is smacking the bottom of a lap dancing lady and she's all tattooed up and everyone's chucking money at these women pole dancers and stuff. And it's a scene of total debauchery, you know. And then Rihanna kind of cuts a swathe through all of this. To kill him out.

Takes the guy out and then cruises off on a motorbike with a helmet that looks like a skull. So I was thinking, hmm, I don't know what to think about this. I can see that it's like a cartoonish empowerment fable. Yeah, I mean... How does that sort of thing line up? I don't watch music videos. Right, OK.

I don't watch music videos, man. And also, when I talk about Rihanna and Beyonce, I don't mean their videos, I don't even mean their work. Yeah. I just mean who I see when you're not doing i for yeah i mean i'm not asking you to like sort of no but i think there's that video no but yeah but i stay away from watching videos kind of because of stuff like that right um i find already even with just with advertising i sometimes have to close my eyes because i'm if I keep my eyes open watching that stuff I'm going to feel like I'm

worth nothing and that I am not a good enough version of myself and that actually I need to be another person that's what all that shit does shit does dove commercials just they make me just feel like I've got to be someone else even when there's oh we've got like a size 12 person here I still feel like I've got a different person there's always something about that person so i don't watch videos and uh that video does sound it sounds like it's a woman uh in enjoying a man's kind of power yeah of the hip-hop kind of guy whatever uh but i have zero interest in that lifestyle anyway yeah i fuck that shit i hate it i tried to be a rock star last summer i'm never gonna do that again what was your rock star uh going at a party in parties after the party we're gonna get a hotel and keep the party going and

then like the sun's gonna come up we're gonna all feel really depressed and really shit and really like we don't know who each other is but we're just gonna keep going and go to another party and we don't care about each other oh how long how long was that phase that was from july till february and that's off the back of chewing gum, coming out and doing well. Also, like, breaking up, I had a break-up. Right, OK. And, yeah, basically, I had a break-up where I was like, oh, it's time to celebrate. OK.

And then, like, I finished my show and I was like, oh, it's time to celebrate. Plus you're 27, so that's a big year. Yeah, and I've spent five years of my whole life in church, you know, doing nothing bad, nothing, nothing. So I kind of went headfirst into hedonism. And then it quickly came out and was like, you know what, it's cool. That's impressive.

You just dealt with it all in like a few months. Yes. You know, some shit went down, basically. And it was either that I was going to do that thing that I see many actors do, which is just have a life full of alcohol and drugs and, like, do really good work but live an unhappy life or I was going to live a happy life and just, you know... Cos as fun as that is, it's got lows

and I decided, actually, I think a balanced life is a bit better. God, that's interesting. It's admirable that you were able just to... Nip it in the bud. Yeah. I'm an extreme person. In about ten years' time, you'll see me on crack cocaine. But, you know, I think, ultimately, it never was me. I'd never really drunk, even before I went to church,

when I could have have didn't really do it. I wasn't that person and I was trying to be someone else. It's not me. Yeah. So you don't want to get out of yourself in that way. You don't want to get away from yourself. No. You like yourself, right? I think that is what it is. I like myself. I like being alone a lot. I love my own company. I sometimes say I wish I could go out with myself I'm a narcissist Like myself Yeah do you think you are a narcissist? My therapist told me I am

So yeah I think I'm half narcissist Half deeply insecure I don't deserve to be here I am nothing Have you had a lot of those insecure feelings Since you've kind of broken through? Massively, yeah.

Yeah, massively. I think, you know, I feel like I'm not from a familiar background, you know, even just like a comedy background. I'm not a comedy writer, I just wrote a comedy, but I still feel like I don't, I'm not a comedy writer, I just wrote a comedy, but I still feel like I should have like known a lot more shit before I just turned up and started doing this. I wasn't from an acting background, don't know any other actors in my family and there's a kind of quiet voice just saying you shouldn't really be here, you know, you're a guest, you're a guest,

you know, you don't own this place but I feel like it's part of what fuels me constantly trying to prove the voice wrong. Especially in comedy, a lot of people in comedy are real comedy nerds. You know, I would include myself in that world. People who grew up watching a lot of comedy and then talk about it all the time, and stand-ups especially that's all they ever talk about other comedians and yeah tricks they've picked up and yeah all that sort of thing

their favorite lines so you were never really like that no and i don't even know you just taught me what it is to be a comedy nerd i've got no idea it's not that i saw it and was like i don't want to be like that i just didn't know existed i just didn't know it existed. I just didn't know. Never been to Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Never didn't know. I was literally asked to write a comedy. I did it. Yeah.

I didn't go looking for it. Didn't go looking for it. So you never really watched a lot of comedy when you were growing up and things like that? I did watch things like Keaton and Kel and Moesha. Uh-huh. But it wasn't because it was funny, it's because they were black. Yeah. It's because they've got this, like, you know in America,

they put black people on TV. So we just watch it. Right. And then movies, though, did you go out to the movies a lot? No. Yeah. So you've got more or less a kind of unadulterated world view. Because I was in school, I read books.

I really liked John Keats. He doesn't appear to have any direct reflection in my work, but I know that that is something I would read and enjoy. And I liked music, and I really liked sociology. It's not that I was presented with other things and rejected them. They didn't come under my radar. And what was it about sociology then that was firing your imagination? Yeah, I was really... Sociology was like, whoa!

What did that get you into? I think looking at the world and looking at patterns when you... Why are working-class people more likely to fail their GCSEs? There's a thing called the underclass. What the fuck is that, you know? These things, I think, because it takes you outside of yourself and then you're looking around. And you start to see how the world fits together.

Yeah, and that it... There is patterns. And that kind of blew my mind. It still does blow my mind. It still does, yeah. So did you get into any authors then who were writing about that sort of stuff? I was a big Karl Marx fan.

Uh-huh. Malcolm Gladwell. Yeah. I listened to his podcast, actually. He's got a podcast. Yeah, I've been listening to that. Yeah, yeah. Did you listen to the one about satire that he did? No,'s quite interesting okay i'll have a listen i'll have a listen talking

about harry enfield's character loads of money i don't know if you remember loads of money from back in the day no well it was sort of thatcher's britain and um it was all about people going out and everything getting um privatized and the emphasis being on making a lot of money and Harry Enfield felt that that was kind of a drag and he had this character who was like a sort of painter-decorator who just went out and he had a big wad of cash and he was just like, I've got loads of money! And he would wave it around, look at my wad!

Bosh! Loads of money! And it was a big catchphrase, you know. I'm going to write that down, this podcast. The satire one. Yeah, yeah, it's good. It's interesting. But the podcast, the Gladwell podcast, is about the fact that the character was taken up not only by the lefties who saw that it was a satire

against that whole way of thinking and that growing group of people who were ravenously ambitious and wanted to make a lot of money and rub it in your face, almost, if you didn't have money, but it was also taken up by those people themselves who were like, Yeah, I'm like that. Loads of money.

I love it. So it was weird, you know. Yeah. And ultimately, I think Harry Enfield was saying in the podcast that he felt it did no good whatsoever. Yeah. Maybe even counterproductive. Yeah, almost like when you're trying to make a political statement

for your comedy and it doesn't quite yeah work for the well i mean gladwell's thesis was that satire just doesn't work which i thought was i don't believe that no it's it seemed a bit sweeping i mean he often is like that though gladwell he sort of has a he has a way that he sees the world and then he sells you that vision. Yeah. And it's not always 100%. It doesn't 100% work. Yeah. But he's very persuasive when he breaks everything down. I mean, I think, this is another quote from the Bible,

those who have ears, let them hear. I don't think it's that satire doesn't work. I think some people don't respond to it. If something doesn't work, and, you know, some people are kind of, another quote from the Bible, this spirit of stupor over them. They can't see your point,

and there's nothing you can do about that. Yeah. Loads of people don't see the point of chewing gum. Some people think it's really damaging for black women because they don't see my point. What do they say specifically, then? It's bad to have a black woman that wants to have sex. Oh, OK.

And the more I hear that, the more I just want to write even more sexual desperation into a character because it's the human body, it's biology, we want to have sex. So I know that it's linked with this kind of idea of sexual suppression that's really strong in the black community. It's shameful, shameful. And some people are embarrassed, you know, like, you know, you've put a black woman up there

and all she does is want to have sex. I didn't have sex until I was 24. And it's like, well, Tracy finished the series and she's still a virgin. They don't want to see. And I'm not a teacher. I'm just writing shit.

If people get it, then they get it. If they't i'm not gonna lose sleep because the language is very coarse in the in the show and you're not afraid to talk about anything i mean that's one of the engaging things about it from my point of view is that you are talking in in kind of a um uh shocking way sometimes about everything. Is that how you've always thought about things or was that something that came fairly late? Presumably you weren't thinking about things

and talking about things in that way when you were more religious. You know what? I kind of was. Were you? Yeah, to my mates. But it wasn't about... It was just about what things I wanted to do. I know loads of Christian girls that are like, I can't of Christian girls that are like I can't wait to suck a dick I can't wait to suck a dick

I know many girls that say shit like that are they not worried they're going to go to hell no because they can't wait until they're married and sucking a dick oh I see till they've got a dick sucking past this is what I'm saying because when you're married you do whatever you want

and you look forward to that some girls not all girls are like that but if I was asked to write a show that would air on Saturday night at 7.30 I wouldn't be able to do it I don't know how to do the kind of normal thing

I bet you'd be good and I bet you'd find that it's quite an interesting discipline if you had to write something totally clean. Because fundamentally, you can do all that stuff and you are funny, you've got funny bones. And clearly you're a good writer. So I reckon you'd be good

and you'd probably find some different stuff there. Would I enjoy it, though? I bet you would. Oh, I don't know. It's fun to work with limitations sometimes yeah you're right you're right i'm just used to being inappropriate have a very inappropriate mind i've done very inappropriate things and i started to realize that not everybody does these inappropriate things so i like to write them down now yeah i thought that this is what everyone did

because i was in church for so long and i came out and i was like oh we go to sex clubs that's what we do honestly i thought that was normal sex clubs yeah what's the sex club in your mind um well the one i went to i probably don't know if i can say the name of it probably can sure it's called killing kittens killing kittens yeah kk club wow yeah that's a real club? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. In London? They move around. Oh, I see. So it's like an event. Yeah.

Right. But you have to, like, become a member. And you go there. The guy I was seeing at the time was... I thought that was normal, because he was, like, my first boyfriend. Uh-huh. He was older.

Right. And I thought it's normal. That's what, you know, you go to. And, Michaela, I thought it's normal that's what you go to Michaela I thought we're going to go to a sex club tonight killing kittens and did you think I don't know if I'm ready to start killing

kittens I had resistance I had resistance so what was it like? I'm vegan, didn't want to go no um I um you know sometimes when you're in love sure yeah you think okay I like you and let's see yeah also you know did he explain what it was going to be like before you went yeah but I don't think anything can quite prepare you for a sex club

and also yeah it was part of, like... Cos I had, like, a really low sex drive at that time. I was trying to, like, make me a kinky bitch, you know? Like, we're going to bring that kinky bitch out of you. And so we went, like, three times to this sex club. So tell me about it. What was it like? So you go that everyone's wearing masks. Oh, it's like Eyes Wide Shut type thing.

I don't know what that is. That's Stanley Kubrick's last film with Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman. OK. And they go to a similar sort of thing. Ah, yes. Very fancy. It's like over £100 to get in. And I actually have an episode a little bit about this in my second series. Men can't go alone.

You have to go with a partner. Women can go alone. The have to go with a partner. Women can go alone. The first one I went to was, no that wasn't the pool party, the first one I went to was like the cabaret performance of, you know, women, you know, doing fancy things, you know, with not a lot of clothes on. I love fancy things. Yes, yeah, and the host. And I remember seeing like maybe three people start making out quite early like we were still in the middle of a performance it was literally like people just started having sex in the middle of a play at the National Theatre and that was actually seen as quite inappropriate they started

too early and I remember the hosts going like guys guys guys yeah um and then the party began and i am not that person i do not want a whip in my hand i don't have that oh yeah let's let's have some sex at the sex club so and i you know the guy i was seeing was very much wanting to have some sex at the sex club. And I didn't have sex with anyone apart from him. Yeah. But I did watch him have sex with, like, quite a lot of people. Oh, really? Yeah. And did you know that that was going to be the deal?

I don't remember. I'm not sure whether it came in the moment. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Oh, no, no, go, baby, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Oh, you were having... Go fly, go fly, go fly. You were having some sex over there. Yeah.

Oh, OK. And how did you feel? Were you turned on or shocked? No, not at all. Not turned on, not angry, not upset, not jealous. I remember a song came on and I went, this is a fucking tune. While I watched him having sex.

Yeah. I'm thinking, the music in here... Was it Cake by the Ocean? It's quite good. Was it what? Cake by the Yeah. I'm thinking the music in here. Was it Cake by the Ocean? It's quite good. Was it what? Cake by the Ocean. I don't know. Do you not know that one?

No. Oh, crazy, crazy. Oh, I do know that song. Cake by the Ocean. I think I had no idea that's what they were saying. Right. Is this a Shousey song? Kind of.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, my daughter likes that one. Okay. Anyway, it's not appropriate to juxtapose thoughts of my daughter with this. Oh, yeah, not quite, not quite. Let's go back. So, this is fascinating. I've never met anyone who's been to a sex club before. Yeah, yeah.

And then, what's everyone else... And while your boyfriend... Like, tell me if I'm being inappropriate with any of my questions. While your boyfriend is having sexual relations then with some random person he's never met before, right? Yes. Is he sort of looking at you and kind of going, look at me, I'm a sexy man.

I don't think I got looks, you know. He's just getting on with it. Yeah, he's just getting on with it. And I remember she was, like, having a really great time. You're like, ah, ah, ah yeah and uh i just don't think you're she's really enjoying it yeah um it i had no effect on me whatsoever right so you didn't go you didn't even have a snog or did you uh i did like the second or third time with a girl right which was a first for me yeah because actually i don't have an attraction to women i didn't at the time anyway maybe a little

bit now um but she her like husband was like oh look you, my lady really likes you. Yeah. And I was like, oh, OK, thanks. My wife likes you. Yeah, but she's shy. He was like, but she's shy. And I was like, no. Shy wife at sex club. And then I looked at the guy I was seeing at the time. He was like, go on.

Go on. And so I was like, oh, hi. And she was like, like hi you're so pretty and I was like oh thanks so are you I had no particular real feelings about what she looked like at all and then I I'm so stupid

I was like oh I've not done this before and I I fingered her but the thing is right i don't even like think of myself so i've got no fucking idea how to think of china so i kept going i'm so sorry i i don't do this and was sort of like trying to like do some like clip motion. Oh, God. And she was kind of looking at me like... And then it stopped quite briefly. I remember saying, I don't want to do this. And then her husband wanted to have sex with me,

which I had no attraction to her husband at all. But it kind of just seemed like, oh, this is what people do. They have some sex. And I went up to my boyfriend. I was like, he wants to have sex with me. And he was like, do you want to have sex with me? And I was like, no. And he was like, OK, you have sex with me and he was like, do you want to have sex with me? And I was like, no. And he was like, okay,

you don't have to. I was like, okay. And that was that. Mainly, the music was good. Okay. So where was all this happening? Are you off in a corner somewhere on a bonquette?

No, it's all up. It's like, yeah, we're just going to turn this whole, like, place into this sofa, you know, how do you pronounce chaise lounge yeah

those there this one was a pool party so there was like a jacuzzi there there was a sauna a steam room a swimming pool and then you've got

the bar and people are just walking around naked just walking around some people are sitting down some people are having sex

and like they want you to see them having sex it's really weird. I find it really, really weird. And is everyone pretty good looking or are there some pretty out of shape people there as well? The women are.

You have to get in. Yeah. So they pick you. Okay. In Kenwich Town there's like a sex sauna but it's full of like quite, you know, like, because you just pay like 10 quid

and you go in there and you just but this one is like we're clean and we go to the gym we make a lot of money you know and here is me with the women that I've brought here we're just blowing off some sexy

steam yeah we're just unleashing our sexual appetite you know, because we are kinky, raunchy hedonists. Yeah. This is where we just do hedonism. We're the masters of the universe. Yeah, and it's dark, sexual darkness. And if they got, like, on a practical

level, how do they deal with the hygiene? I know there's condoms, like, everywhere. Right. I mean, but that's what, i think that pool must be fucking disgusting because obviously you don't have to use a condom right and i'm sure there's probably a lot of spunk in the fucking jacuzzi i think it's probably fucking gross the filters must get clogged yeah super clogged on a regular with just everything yeah you're not gonna put your head underwater there no no but i yeah i'm pretty sure i did i'm not really the biggest hygiene person i seem to

just not give a fuck uh yeah wow that is great and um so you wouldn't go back to one of those places or did you think the only way i might go back actually actually, no, I wouldn't go back. There's a version of events where I'd go with a bunch of girls for a laugh. Uh-huh. But I wouldn't do sexual things. I love sexual encounters, but a sex club is just not my thing. So you didn't come away from the whole thing feeling like a little bit, not traumatised, but just sort of a bit melancholy? No.

Literally, it's kind of like I went to the zoo. Oh, well, that's cool. Yeah. It's good to observe. You know, it was like, ooh, that was interesting. Because were you someone who was then able to, in your teenage years, have one-night stands or just have... No, I didn't have any.

So you didn't do any of that? Not in my teenage years. Right. In my later years, yeah. And you found relationships sort of manageable, or would you get upset very easily? Well, with one-night stands? Yeah, or any kind of relationship.

Well, the thing is with, basically, I always, if I want to have sex, I am going to go and get you to have sex with me. It's not, I'm never convinced into having sex it's not that a guy sees me and i wasn't expecting i have to i have to orchestrate the thing myself so i have great feelings i've got no kind of like because it's what i wanted it's what i went and got and it's done right nothing wrong with that i don't have any issues. I am not down for, like, being like, oh, no, I don't really want to.

Like, I've been like, oh, come on, let's go. Oh, but I'm not sure. Choose me. Yeah. And then after, you're going to feel shit after that. Yeah, yeah. Fuck that. But if I want to have sex, you know, I've not, you know,

I don't have any problem with going, yeah, you. Let's go. Let's go and kill some kittens. Yeah, it doesn't work so much anymore now because of the whole tv thing hey i'm on tv do you want to have some sex it doesn't work like that and now i live a much more quiet uh life devoid of sex surely it works even better no never want to do that i've got no desire that's not a good basis is it that's so gross. Yeah. I could never. If you have seen my TV show or you know me, it's over. Can't happen.

Well, listen, let's wrap things up. Yeah? Are you sure? I don't want to because I'm enjoying myself. Yeah, well, it is really nice to talk to you. You know, it's been really good meeting you. Yes, you too. Yeah, it was really fun and I i love your stuff i think it's

great and uh i can't wait to see where you go and what you do next thank you i was very nervous about this one oh really yeah what did you think was gonna happen well it's just like you know you're quite a big deal so i was a bit like oh fuck yeah i am a big you are a little bit come on how just a little bit everyone knows this is. I'm milking this because I like being told I'm a big deal. Basically, my mum likes you. That's it. I'm joking. Yeah, no, you know. Yeah. You know, you get scared. I always get scared when it's like a big...

But now I realise you're just a worthless piece of shit. Yeah. Yeah. This is an advert for Squarespace. Every time I visit your website, I see success. Yes, success. The way that you look at the world makes the world want to say yes. It looks very professional.

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Yay! Michaela Cole. She's the real deal. Very much enjoyed meeting her. And do check out Chewing Gum, obviously, if you haven't already seen it. It's a blast of fresh air, which I love. And I'm out here in the fresh air, walking still with Rosie, although I don't know where Rosie's gone. Rosie! Rosie! Nah, she's in the undergrowth.

Having a great, great undergrowth time. Anyway, so thanks so much to Michaela for her time. Really good to meet her. The last edition of the podcast featured my conversation with Louis Theroux, in which we talked about boozing and infantilism, in which we talked about boozing and infantilism and then ended up with Louis singing in falsetto to Baccarat. Thanks for your messages on the subject. But there were a couple of bits of feedback that I wanted to share with you.

Actually, three bits. Well, several. I mean, I get these all the time. People getting in touch and saying, what's the my wife thing? Where does that come from? And someone the other day said, oh, yes. What's that a reference to? Hope it's not an in joke. If so, yawn. Is it an in joke? Not really. It's an in joke with me and Joe and the podcast,

because it was from the Christmas special that me and Joe Cornish did last year. Episode number 12, I believe it is. And it's right at the end of that episode. So about 10 or 15 minutes before the end, that's where you'll find my wife being born. And so you'll be able to hear where that came from and make your own assessment as to the value or lack thereof. Coffee versus tea. Oh yeah, we were talking about the fact Louis was saying that coffee has more caffeine than tea.

Peter Canning was one of the many people that got in touch to say, Guys, coffee has more caffeine than tea. Caffeine higher in tea leaves than coffee beans, but less in final drink. So in other words, there's more, people tend to put more actual coffee in a coffee than tea leaves in a tea. This is interesting stuff, isn't it? And the final thing was, well, on the serious subject of drinking and drinking guidelines and abusing or not abusing alcohol, Paul Newell left a message on my blog, which was broadly positive, but he did say about Louis, for someone who's made a documentary on alcoholism, I was rather surprised that Louis didn't know that the UK alcohol guidelines are given in units, not points, or what these guidelines are, or how many units

are in a pint of beer. I mean, I will say in Louis' defence that, first of all, the documentary was not about alcoholism per se. It was about a group of people struggling with the effects of excessive drinking. And he also made it clear in our convo that it was not meant to be a information film. In that way, it was about these people's lives. He has not set himself up as an authority on sensible drinking, and nor has he ever pretended to I don't think so we were having an informal conversation where we started talking about the whole concept of points and just carried on of course units is the correct terminology when you're talking about alcohol but this message from Paul Newell continues I was also quite concerned that Louis felt 21 units was not enough to get, quote, lashed in an evening. That's about eight to ten pints of beer.

And that 14 units was unrealistic. And that even 21 units was too low. I mean, we were, we did, you know, it wasn't, it was like a jokey conversation. I think I took him up on the whole getting lashed thing anyway, on ten pints. I think we agreed that no-one drinks ten pints. On this last point, continues Paul, the government came up with the guidelines

based on the best available evidence at the time as to what is the safe limit. So in this sense, we need to consider them as fact something that can't be adjusted because people will find it difficult it would be like trying to decide what sign to put over a 12 foot bridge and reasoning well it's unrealistic for all vehicles to be under 12 feet tall so we'll say it's 14 feet. People's heads will come off, says Paul. Now, I take issue with quite a few things in that last paragraph, Paul. The idea that the government's guidelines, based on the best available evidence at the time, are to be taken as gospel. I appreciate

that it would be wise to pay close attention to those guidelines. They are, as you point out, based on the opinions of people who know more about these things than I certainly do. On the other hand, we also know that science in that area is inexact. And whereas I agree if a bridge has clearance of 12 feet, then vehicles taller than that will almost certainly suffer some degree of damage, I don't think the same thing can be said of alcohol guidelines. I think some people will suffer adverse effects, and some people may go through their whole lives drinking slightly over that suggested limit, with no obvious ill effects.

That's just a fact. Can everybody expect to do that? No, clearly they can't. So the sensible thing, of course, would be to stick to the guidelines. With alcohol, as with so many things, moderation tends to be a useful way forward. But also, it was not a chat designed to get people to overturn the government's guidelines on drinking um at all but thanks for your message paul and on that the sober note it's time for me to say goodbye thank you very much indeed for downloading the podcast. Hope you enjoyed it. Thanks very much indeed to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for production support. And until next time, we share the same aural space. Please do be very careful out there. Take care of yourselves and others, even if superficially some of them appear to be dicks.