The Bechdel Cast - BAPS with Bridget Todd

Episode Date: February 29, 2024

On this episode, Jamie, Caitlin, and special guest Bridget Todd gather at the local hair salon restaurant and discuss B*A*P*S! Follow Bridget at @bridgetmarieindc on Instagram and @BridgetMarie on Twitter, and learn more about the Bernie Mac Sarcoidosis Translational Advanced Research (STAR) Center at https://hospital.uillinois.edu/primary-and-specialty-care/rheumatology/sarcoidosis See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that?

That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller

from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Curious about queer sexuality,

cruising, and expanding your horizons? Hit play on the sex-positive and deeply entertaining podcast or wherever you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. On the Bechdel cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effing vast. Start changing it with the Bechdel cast. Hey, Jamie. Hey, Caitlin. Do you want to open up a

salon slash restaurant with me? Yes, I do. Okay, cool. I can't do either of the things. Oh, well, wait till you see me dance. Okay, okay. Well, I'm also really good at dancing. So let's do that. Incredible. Incredible. I think that that was a really, that was strong. I was like, should we start to deceive each other? Just in general, just in life.

Anyways, welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. And this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the bechdel test as a jumping off point absolutely true but what is that though well there's a lot of different versions of the bechdel test it is originally created as a joke as a bit as a goof yes boof a goof. Yes, boof-a-goof by Alison Bechdel in the 80s for her incredible comic series Dykes to Watch Out For,

often called the Bechdel-Wallace Test because she co-created it with her friend Liz Wallace. Our version of the test that we use requires that two people of a marginalized gender with names talk to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue. And it should be plot impactful dialogue. And that's the test.

Most movies don't pass. This one, spoiler alert, does. It does. Because the movie we're talking about today is BAPS. Yeah. 1997. Same year Titanic came out. Sorry to mention it. That was my first note it's like

greatest year in film we have a returning guest today is it third third i think time that's a jacket yeah i'm like steve martin at saturday night live yeah basically yes she's the host of i hearts there are no girls on the Internet. It's Bridget Todd. Welcome back. Thank you for having me. I was telling Caitlin off mic that y'all could not have picked a better movie for me to talk about that I feel more strongly about. So I am so excited to be here. Oh, we're so excited to have you.

Tell us your relationship with BAPS. Well, I remember very distinctly watching this for the first time at a slumber party in the 90s. It was one of those, do you ever have memories of going to Blockbuster and picking out a movie and being so excited and then getting that tub of popcorn that they had, you put it in the microwave? I have a clear memory of my mind of going during a sleepover to rent this movie and watching it and sitting on my stomach and like just loving it. I love memories like that, too, where it's like I feel like the thing that sticks with

me the strongest is like the politics among usually a group of girls in the blockbuster where you're trying to reach a consensus and there's like people calling each other over from one wall to the other being like, look at this one. And then you have to debate. It's exciting. And this is such a sleepover movie. It is. And so one of the reasons why I'm so excited to talk about it is that it is a movie that

when it came out was like controversial. People liked it, didn't like it. People had a lot to say about it. And I loved it from the beginning. I loved it then. I love it now. If folks ever watch Real Housewives of Atlanta, there's a scene where one woman is trying to humiliate another woman when she's throwing a costume party. And so she's giving everybody glamorous Hollywood

celebrities to come dressed as. It's like, oh, you come dressed as Diana Ross. You come dressed as Billie Holiday. And she's like, I want you to come dressed as hallie berry from baps and it's meant to be like a deep insult so it's definitely a movie that holds a lot of wow what a controversy yeah she doesn't spoiler alert she doesn't do it she comes dressed as hallie berry and dorothy dandridge to sort of get around it but yeah it was like an insult ridiculous because hallie berry's looks in this movie iconic yeah the costuming is unbelievable. It helped me get around a lot of plot dissonance. I know. And I do feel like the joke of the movie is supposed to be like,

look how tacky these women look. But there are multiple outfits that Halle Berry wears where I'm like, I would wear that today. No problem. If that was in my closet, I would be very happy. Her character, Natalie DeSalle, Reed's character, like they're looking terrific. It's true. It's true.

And I was speaking to your point, Bridget. I was really I wasn't aware of the discourse around this movie when it came out. It's always interesting covering a movie that like the way it was received was so wrong. And then having to come back around. Gosh, this movie is my brother's age. 27 years later. Scary. And sort of revisit it, which I'm glad that some writers have, but not as many as I would have expected.

Yeah. To prep for this, I read Roger Ebert's original review of this movie. Eviscerated it. Like skewered it. It was in his worst of list. And even if I don't agree with Roger Ebert, I usually love reading his reviews. And like, he could not stand this movie.

Yeah, I'm excited to dig into that. I don't know, Roger Ebert, like when he hits, he hits. When he misses, it's so embarrassing. And I feel like we have had a feud with his ghost on this show for many years. Right. Well, it's the thing that we have talked about quite a lot where, I mean, this movie, first of all, it was a box office flop, unfortunately. And most critics hated it but as we've talked about a lot on the show most of the critics reviewing

movies in like at least major publications in 97 were white men this is a movie about two black women made by black filmmakers and so a lot of critics at that time were like well this movie isn't about someone who looks like me and so therefore it's not for me and therefore I don't understand it and I don't like it yeah there's and they're also we can save it for later but I feel like there was a lot of like respectability politics encoded into the reviews that I was reading where like it was white reviewers deciding what was appropriate in terms of like how black women could be represented it was an interesting thing to get into because you also read interviews with the writer Troy Byer and she's like I hated

Robert Townsend's directorial choices and I don't like the movie and so you're like well a lot of things are going on yeah that's a good point and like I love Robert Townsend absolutely another movie that he had made was Hollywood Shuffle. So like, he definitely is somebody who was interested in playing with satire and stereotypes around culture and blackness to make a larger point. Whether or not that point like lands or falls flat or whatever, I think he was clearly doing something with this movie. And I think a lot of the film reviewers maybe missed what he was doing. But yeah, I read the same thing as you, Jamie, that one of the screenwriters on this movie was

like, I hated it. I had a lot of issues with the script and this and that. And so I want to take that into account too. But I do think that some of the reviews that make this sound like it was just a vapid, cruel movie bashing working class black women. I don't see that. Jamie, what is your relationship with this movie? I had not seen this movie before. And that's sort of the beginning, middle and end of it. I, I knew of it. And I didn't know that Troy Byer had written it. She's just like, a really interesting person. The more I was reading about her, the more I was reading about her the more I was like she's just like she started as a Sesame Street kid and she's like Caitlin Durante mode has a million degrees and

a million things wow thank you I would never mention it but thank you for bringing it up yeah she has lived many lives and I thought it was interesting again because I feel like so many times when we cover a movie we're like I wonder how the writer felt about how the adaptation of their work translated to the screen and Troy Byer was very outspoken about it so yeah I hadn't seen it before I think there's so much to love about this movie it's such a sleepover movie it's so clear who the movie's for and everyone who was vocally outspoken about this movie were nowhere near who the movie is for so i'm excited to talk about it yeah caitlin what's your history i had also never seen it though i know that it's been a request on the show from like a few select listeners it's a

cult classic right so it's not something that like tons and tons and tons of people are being like you gotta cover this movie but like the people who are requesting it are like, you have to do this movie. They're very fervent about it. Baps and Muriel's Wedding. Like the listeners who want it, want it badly. If any of those folks are listening who like really have been requesting it, I hope I do it justice. I guess I'll just say that. We brought in a three timer. We brought in a hitter.

Yes. No, you'll do great. This will be great. Everything will be great. We're going to live forever. Yeah. Should I do the recap and we'll go from there? Let's do it. Okay. So we are in Decatur, Georgia. We meet two friends, Niecy, that's Halle Berry, and Mickey, that's Natalie DeSalle-Reed. Rest hope this doesn't derail things, but I just want to say Bernie Mac, rest in peace. Before he died, he has a chronic illness or had a chronic illness called sarcoidosis, which my father also has. And so it's near and dear to me. But folks might not know that the University of Illinois Hospital Center has the Bernie

Mac Center for Sarcoidosis Research. And I donate every year. Folks should donate. Oh, my God. It's an undertreated, understudied chronic illness that disproportionately impacts Black folks. And so it's a cause that's near to me. So please donate if you've got extra change. And thank you, University of Illinois, for studying this undertreated illness. Well, we will link to that. I had no idea.

Yeah. Thank you for letting me give that plug. Oh, of course. Yeah. We'll support. So yes, Bernie Mac is there. He's running the restaurant. Niecy and Mickey, they're best friends. They have similar aesthetics in that they have really long fingernails. They're always wearing elaborate hairdos that Niecy does because she's an aspiring salon owner. She's technically making sausage at the beginning, but I consider that the hot dog representation of the movie. I was like, if a hot dog doesn't show up later,

this movie still passes the Jamie Loftus hot dog test. Is there a hot dog? Is there a hot dog represented on screen? And close enough, I would say for this movie. Pretty close. So yeah, they wear flashy clothes. They've got the hairdos. They've got the nails, all that. On the radio, Niecy hears an announcement that auditions are being held in LA to cast a dancer for Heavy D's Dance Girl of the World. And whoever is cast in this will get ten thousand dollars and nisi wants to go to this

audition because she hopes to you know get cast and use that money to open a hair salon slash restaurant that presumably she would do the hair for and that mickey would be the chef at i think is the idea do you all think that's a good idea like i've been wrestling back and forth with whether or not this is a great idea or a terrible idea i think it feels like it's at high risk for like a fire lots of hair and also high heat yeah right like if someone with like a lot of hairspray and a lot of like grease grill like i guess it depends on what kind of food they're serving seems like a high accident well also just seems like unsanitary and unhygienic with like people's dander flying through the air and their hair all over the floor and stuff that's true i mean spoiler alert they

end up doing it yes so i wish we could fast forward a year and be like, so what does OSHA think? Yeah. Right. Where's BAPS 2, which is all about the salon slash restaurant? It was the twist of the movie for me to find out that the old man came up with the term BAPS. Yes. Yeah. I was like, what?

He was just like coining on his deathbed like yeah he uses his will to coin the phrase i just didn't see it coming right because they're like what's baps and then he's like black american princesses yeah i was like wait it was his idea yeah didn't see that coming and this is like true of so many rom-coms but i just thought there was a very fun kind of bizarre liberal use of like a vague movie score where sometimes like something's happening that is like plot impactful but not like the most serious thing in the world and it's like including the entire end of the movie, the whole last minute, there's no dialogue. They're just playing the score.

And I'm like, I would just like to know what they're saying. Because they're saying things. Maybe the sound, something happened. I don't know. And they're like, if we just put music over this and show people's reactions, it'll be clear. Show, don't tell. You know? Yeah.

True number one in screenwriting. Okay. So we also meet Niecy and Mickey's two boyfriends. Ollie, played by Pierre Edwards, that's Niecy's boyfriend. And James, played by Anthony Johnson, that's Mickey's boyfriend. They're trying to start up like a car service company, but right now they're unemployed. They have questionable haircuts.

They're kind of losers. More importantly, they're not very nice to their girlfriends. Right. Like be a loser all you want if you're a good partner. They are my least favorite part of this movie. I'll be sure I'll get to it partner. They are my least favorite part of this movie. I'm sure I'll get to it, but they are my least favorite part of this movie. Write them out. Yeah, truly.

I mean, I appreciate that Troy Byer has been outspoken about how she feels about the final product. But I wish she was a little more specific. I'm like, did she want the movie to end like that? Because it feels like the boyfriends did not deserve that. Yeah. Anyway, so then Niecy sees another ad for the Dance Girl of the World contest and takes it as a sign that she and Mickey should definitely go to the audition in L.A. Before they leave, though, they go out to a club because it's ladies night and they get in free. And a bunch of guys want to talk to them, but none of them want to or can

spend the money to buy them drinks, including their boyfriends. So Nisi is all the more eager to get away and travel to LA and hopefully meet like a rich guy in LA. On the flight, they're trying to learn etiquette from a book. Their hair is too big and it's blocking everyone's view of the in-flight movie. Very funny stuff there. So many like vignettes. There's so many comedy montages. It's like, it's 1997, baby. We're doing comedy montages. True. Fun fact that flight attendant who was like, can you lower your hair? It's Deborah Wilson from Mad TV.

Oh, my God. Yeah. A lot of good cameos in this movie, including one we're about to see, which is LL Cool J because they arrive in L.A. They're at the airport. They accost LL Cool J. 1997. They do this every time they see a famous person because there's a bunch of cameos sprinkled throughout the movie. And they're always accosting whoever it is and being like, oh, my God, I'm your biggest fan.

Marry me. Sing for me. Blah, blah, blah. They're always making a scene. Sing for me is like there's a fandom of the opera. I can really relate to that scene with LL Cool J. Y'all, I'm like embarrassed to say, I used to write him letters. Like I had his like pictures on my wall and I was so obsessed with him.

People forget like in 1997, he was a real sex symbol and he made like music that was like very sensual. What was in the letters? Oh, I would be like, I thought there was a world where we might get together. Mind you, I was like a child. So it was a lot of like, when we meet, like blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I was obsessed with him. Was it the sort of thing where like LL Cool J Industries

would like send you something back, like fan mail stuff? God, I wish. They probably were like, let's never indulge this child's fantasy about. We're putting Bridget's name on a list. If anyone knows him, I would still accept a form letter back to this day. I would still happily take that. In any case, they arrive in L.A. They head to the audition. there's a very long line and Nisi

kind of has like a dance-off with another woman waiting in the line which a man nearby notices I love the dance scene it's so weird it's just truly yeah then we don't see the audition but we see her coming out of it and she hasn't done well. The judges were like, pass. And she's feeling defeated and ready to head back to Georgia. But then that man who noticed her earlier, his name is Antonio. He approaches Niecy and Mickey and tells them that his boss is looking for a dancer for a music video it pays ten thousand dollars and provides room and board in a mansion in beverly hills and you're like you're being abducted you're being abducted like this is what a scary proposal yeah and they're like sounds great so antonio takes So Antonio takes them to the mansion where they meet this rich guy named Isaac Blakemore, also his snooty butler named Manly.

Nisi and Mickey get settled in at the mansion. There's a bidet scene where they don't know how a bidet works. 1997 comedy montage. Yes. My first time ever seeing a bidet was this scene. And I didn't know what a bidet was. And so the scene, I was still sort of like, so what is the little toilet? Like, I still didn't understand the humor of the scene because I didn't know what a bidet was.

I still, to this day, I mean, I guess I've seen them now. But I've never engaged. I've never used one. I don't trust them. I believe that now there's consumer bidets. You don't need to be in the 1% to have a bidet. I know people are evangelical about them. I just don't know how you dry your ass afterward.

That's my question too, because from what I've read, it's more environmentally friendly and more hygienic because you're not like using paper on your butt but your butt gets wet so wouldn't you have to use paper what are you using to dry your butt I know someone who had like one of those consumer bidets that you just like install in your toilet and then yeah they had a designated butt towel but then it's like so now your butt towel is just hanging in your bathroom with all your butt germs all over it and i don't care how effective the bidet is it's not killing the bacteria from your ass it's just water and what if i'm your friend and i come over and you're accidentally touched the like what if you think it's a hand towel and you dry your hands with it

it's like pea mints you know how like oh yeah in the urinals you mean no like how anytime there's like those like they're delicious unfortunately the mints like outside of bathrooms or like at restaurants and they there was like a test for how much urine because americans are gross and don't wash their hands and it was like these are 100 p they're just calcified p and you're like oh no so you can never have them at a restaurant if they're just out raw yeah not wrapped you can't have them there's p in them yeah so people are out here putting their unwashed urine soaked hands raw dog into a bowl of communal mints like what is wrong with people there's science to back up peepee hands and poo poo towels it's a sick sad world we live in and food in your salons

and hair and your restaurants just a mess don't do it it's a mess okay so then after the bidet scene they sit down with isaac who reveals that he isn't actually making a music video. What he is looking for is a woman to play a particular part, which is that Isaac's rich elderly in love with this woman named Lily, but he never got to be with her or marry her because he's white and she was black and his family forbid their relationship. But now that this uncle is on his deathbed, Isaac wants to find a woman to pretend to be Lily's granddaughter. And so that's who he wants Niecy to play. And Niecy and Mickey are very touched by this story. So Niecy agrees to do it. You could already tell, I mean, just from like the,

I don't know the actor who plays Isaac, but you can just tell that like he's up to no good based on how he's like looking at people. But already from the beginning, the plan is too weird to not be secretly evil. Yeah. If they were remaking this movie, he would be cast, well, pre-Allegations,

he would be cast by Armie Hammer. Like a person in a movie that you're like, don't trust him. He's bad. It's not been revealed yet you can just tell by his face yes i feel like adam brody is playing a lot of those parts these days yeah but maybe it's just because we're about to cover ready or not where it's like he's a nice guy unless he also did that in promising young woman yeah he did it in um american fiction right yeah

he plays like an agent or something yes right like he plays just kind of like slime balls similar character in uh jennifer's body too yeah oh my god wow yeah this is like a a thing with him yeah it happens a lot in horror movies where if you need like a slimy white guy in a thriller or a horror movie and you will and you will need that you cast either adam brody or justin long wow that's true i wonder how often they're like duking it out to play devious short kings we don't know we don't know anyways anyway so the friends meet the dying uncle, Don Blakemore, played by Martin Landau. Fun. Very fun. At first, he's like shocked and angry that they're there.

But then he quickly warms up to Niecy and Mickey. They have dinner together. But Mickey's like, what the fuck is this boring chicken? So she goes to the kitchen and whips up some soul food. And Don loves it. She keeps making it for him for the next few days. And it seems like his health is improving. Although Manly the butler disapproves. He still doesn't like the ladies. This is such a great scene. I love a montage of like a black woman is coming in and taking charge and shaking things up. Like this movie does not spare on the montages.

Right. No. Oh my gosh. It was kind of like, I mean, from a note taking perspective, it was very helpful because sometimes you're like, oh,

nothing's going to happen for a minute. Cool. I can catch up on my notes. Great. Great. On my first watch. So yeah, Don is feeling better and he even feels up to taking

Niecy and Mickey on a shopping spree so then we get a clothes trying on montage but nephew Isaac is lurking nearby taking pictures and it's clear that he's up to something and then he's talking on the phone with someone he's doing like a vaguely evil phone call yeah and then the actor i again i don't know anything about this actor but he's kind of cracking me up with the over-the-top evilness where his scene like talking to someone on the phone being like don't worry we'll be very rich soon click and then it like just pans down to him and then he goes good all right you're bad amazing acting yeah it seems like he intends to like set someone up or blackmail someone we're not really sure what the plan is meanwhile mickey and that guy antonio who works

at the estate they're having a secret affair and antonio claims to be from a wealthy family in italy and he wants to spend all of his money on Mickey, but he doesn't seem trustworthy either. He's also up to something. Then Don takes Niecy and Mickey out to a fancy dinner, and they're trying to act sophisticated and classy, but they keep seeing celebrities, and they're making a scene. Then Don wants to know more about his beloved Lily. So Niecy like crams her mouth full of food to avoid talking about her. She kind of like makes some stuff up. You can't even understand her. It's very funny.

Then back at the estate, Mickey and Antonio are canoodling again. And Antonio is like, I have a ring for you, but it's in this safe, but I can't get it open. And she tries to open the safe and it's clear that he's just trying to like get her to put her fingerprints on the safe to incriminate her later. I know, I was like, Mickey, he's wearing a leather glove. Come on.

At one point they're canoodling, they're like laying in bed and she's like in a nightie and she's like, why are you wearing these leather gloves? And yeah, I feel like Mickey would be smarter than that. You would think. in bed and she's like in a nightie and she's like why are you wearing these leather gloves and yeah I feel like Mickey would be smarter than that you would think there's a number of times where I was like these women are smart like let's yeah why don't they notice that they're being deceived women be being deceived in movies I mean not not to victim blame these women although you know there's some equal opportunity deception in this movie the women are also deceiving martin landau that's true it makes

you think i'm not mad about it and also martin landau's not mad about it weirdly enough no he's like very down to be deceived he's like i've got 45 minutes to live, you know, whatever. He loves it. He seems to. It's his kink. Anyway, so later that night, a burglar comes in and knocks out Manly the butler and it wakes up Niecy and Mickey. So they come down and kick the burglar's ass. And he turns out to be Antonio. And he's in cahoots with nephew Isaac, who is trying to defraud his uncle and take his money by claiming that he is mentally unfit because he had brought in two women from the quote unquote ghetto who were robbing him every night. This is all explained by Don's lawyer, Tracy Shaw, played by Troy Byer, aka the screenwriter of the movie. And once this is all figured out, Don offers Nisi and

Mickey each $50,000 for their trouble. But they refuse, saying that they're there because they want to be there, which makes Don trust them even more. He takes them out dancing. But the guilt of lying to Don about being the granddaughter of his beloved lily is really weighing on nisi so she writes a letter to dawn and plans to give it to him and then like leave the estate shortly thereafter but before they can do that the butler manly who has warmed up to nisi and mickey also I thought that was a fun subversion, the butler being nice. You always expect him to be dastardly. Yeah. And he is at first, but then he's like, wow, we like the same soap opera. Let's be best friends. It didn't take much.

Kind of love that. He has arranged for Nisi and Mickey's boyfriends, Ali and James, to come to the estate. And these guys are trying to get their act together so that they can, like, deserve these women. But meanwhile, Don suddenly collapses and he's rushed to the hospital. He dances himself to death the issue of his health i think is is a little all over the place in the movie because we're introduced to him as if he does not have a lot of time to live but then he's very sprightly for a while he's briefly brought back to like full health by mickey's cooking ostensibly yeah and then has a very steep decline it's very like movie health right exactly yeah so then nisi goes to the hospital and she's trying to tell don that she's not really lily's granddaughter but he dies before

she can get the words out and then the attorney tracy informs them that don already knew that she wasn't lily's granddaughter because he was aware that Lily never had any children. He just cared about Niecy and Mickey out of the kindness of his heart. He just enjoyed their company. Then Tracy is like, by the way, here's Don's last will and testament in which he leaves everything to his baps, a.k.a. A thing he made up yes three minutes before passing away which i just feel like we cannot overlook yes yeah i think that there's an argument that like there's sort of a fin dom element to mr blake more because and i i love it i've never seen anything like

it in a movie where he's just like knowingly being deceived. But he's like, let's party. Let's have fun. And he tries to give them $100,000 collectively at one point. Like he's just kind of down to clown that Mr. Blakemore. I kind of get it. Like he's got money. His nephew is like trying to take advantage of him. I think he's got money. His nephew is like trying to take advantage of him.

I think he's got money and he knows he's about to die. So it's like I may as well spend it having a good time like eating soul food and dancing at the club with these women. That's how I would go out. Yeah. I respect it. I mean, and it's like I'm sure if we knew more about him because he runs a fabric business, a textile business. I'm like for sure, you know, if he's that rich, he's exploiting someone yeah but this is a cinderella story and he is the benevolent rich guy who's kind of getting fin domed i don't hate it right speaking of cinderella

natalie de sel read is in brandy cinderella also from this year, from 1997? Or was that a different year? I believe so. Yeah, this is 1997. She plays one of the stepsisters, Minerva. She's so great. I feel like she never got her due. But I feel like if you were watching black sitcoms in the 90s, you've seen her in everything.

She was such a gem. And I just, yeah, it makes me sad that she's no longer with us because her career would probably be really popping today. Yeah. I remember her from Eve. Did anyone ever watch Eve? Yes. Yes. Eve and Cinderella.

Also, before we cut to break, yeah, because Natalie DeSalle-Reed is no longer with us. Halle Berry, I didn't see this at the time she passed away, but Halle Berry posted like a really sweet tribute to her when she passed. And I want to share it really quick. Yeah. She said, quote, Natalie represented actual black women, not what black women are perceived to be. For that, she was often underrated, passed over, deprived of the platform she truly deserved. But her light continues to shine through the people who grew up watching her, the people who knew her best and those of us who loved her. I love you forever, my sweet friend.

That's so nice. Beautiful. And you can just feel in this movie, even when the movie is weird and kind of off the rails, that like they're having fun. They're definitely having a hell of a time. Oh, yeah. Anyways, Natalie DeSalle, we love her. So the movie ends with Niecy and Mickey inheriting Dawn's fortune. Nephew Isaac is there being like, what the heck? No.

And then this new fortune they have enables Niecy and Mickey to open up their salon slash restaurant in Beverly Hills called Lily's with a Z. Also, Ali and James have opened up their car service. Also, Dennis Rodman is there as a cameo. 1997. They all live happily ever after. That's the movie. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered there are crooks everywhere you look now The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she and she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session.

24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out?

I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing they're just dreams Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller

from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts when you think of Mexican culture you think of avocado, mariachi delicious cuisine and of course, lucha libre. It doesn't get more Mexican than this. Lucha libre is known globally because it is much more than just a sport and much more than just entertainment.

Lucha libre is a type of storytelling. It's a dance. It's tradition. It's culture. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12-episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of Lucha Libre. And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, the emperor of Lucha Libre and a WWE superstar. Join me as we learn more about the history behind this spectacular sport, from its inception in the United States to how it became a global symbol of Mexican culture. We'll learn more about some of the most iconic heroes in the ring. This is Lucha Libre Behind

the Mask. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask as part of My Cultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you stream podcasts. and we're back we're back baby where shall we start i mean bridget if you have a strong instinct i feel like we've already also sort of started to talk about how this movie was received i think that's a good place to start so i felt this way when i watched it and it was even more clear to me watch re-watching it today which is that this movie at times I can understand how people think like oh it's making fun of these working class black women however to me this is a movie about black women who have goals and dreams and who like can really visualize and do the work to get them to those dreams and the thing that gets them to their

goals and their dreams is like their creativity, their ingenuity, right? Like there's a scene when they first get into the car, the limo, and they're going to the mansion and they take off their wigs and they're going to do a whole different hairdo.

And it's like, that's creativity, right? Like, I don't think the movie is trying to make fun of that. I think the movie is trying to be like the reason why these women are the kind of women who would take a flight to LA to be like, the reason why these women are the kind of women who would take a flight to LA

to try to get on Heavy D's music video and say yes to these authors that seem kind of outlandish is because they are creative, is because they like possess these qualities that are the reason why they dress the way they do

and also are the reason why they go for their goals. So that's really, I see this as a movie about dreamers and the creativity and foresight that it takes to really architect a life for yourself based on that dream. Hell yeah. Yeah.

There is so much that is like lost in the way that the movie was received because they're super motivated. There's a piece I found that was in Refinery29 back in 2018. Remember then? No. By Anne Cohen that sort of examines the critical response versus how she felt, which is very similar to how you feel, Bridget.

And also, I mean, it reads very clearly and it feels really condescending the way that this criticism comes off because in like the Ebert reviews, the motivation and how active they are in the story is not mentioned the fact that they are motivated and have dreams aren't mentioned i think that the way it's dealt in the movie can be a little like uneven and the way that the movie prescribes their ending is weird although i am glad they got their salon restaurant that probably wasn't a good business idea but that whole sort of saga

is fascinating and what Ann Cohen sort of digs into here is this movie is clearly a part of the very 90s rags to riches women's story but it's one of the few rags to riches story about black women and it's received as I mean and I bravely still have not seen pretty woman in my life wow so I have to take everyone else's word for how much this movie especially in the montages kind of reflects things that happen in pretty woman what Ann Cohen is arguing is that the reception of this movie is when Halle Berry and Natalie Deseller doing it it's portrayed as trashy when Julia Roberts is doing the same thing on Rodeo Drive it's presented as unbelievably charming and how that is masked off racist yeah in the same era of sleepover movies yeah and like in Pretty, I hadn't clocked that comparison, but I

think it's a good one. It's funny. I was just listening to Tina Fey on Las Culturistas and she was like, when I was watching Pretty Woman, me and my cousin would be like, are we the only people who have realized that like as a sex worker, it's probably going great this time because it's Richard Gere, but there's probably other stories that you're not hearing from her work that are like maybe not so great and not so charming but um yeah I think that pretty woman example is an interesting one because it's like whose come-up story do we celebrate and whose come-up story is like just like fodder for laughs I guess and yeah I just I almost think that what some of these reviewers who didn't like the movie,

not all of them, but what some of them are actually saying is like, if you are a working class woman who dresses flashy and has really long nails and you're in Decatur, Georgia, it is absurd that you would think you could go to LA and like dance in a heavy D video or like make it or have some sort of dream. It almost seems like what they're actually saying in their mask off moments in these

reviews is like that premise is what is unbelievable. Not that the movie is like making fun of them or whatever. It almost kind of reveals the way that they're kind of like putting a negativity on that. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. It's so weird reading them where it's clear that like roger

ebert feels that he is doing a righteous thing while still clearly putting in a lot of his own biases and it's also like it's also fine to not love a sleepover movie i think that there's also a gendered aspect to this but it's far more likely for again the pretty woman comparison because i i was just looking at the original marketing for this movie and it's very clear in how they're marketing baps who they want to go see it because the tagline is these pretty women are clueless and you're like okay well they even say it in the tagline yeah they drop two similar movies in the tagline you're like okay so this is like all the same thing but movies like pretty woman and clueless are far more likely to be you know escalated to like well this is actually like a pretty good movie quote unquote and yeah

that's just racist and unfair and i don't even think this is like an amazing movie but it's not what it's like holding it to that standard is silly right yeah I completely agree and the fact of the matter is that like it has endured culturally and so again I love this movie I'm not going to pretend like it's the most groundbreaking the best movie ever I have my issues with it but the fact that it has maintained this cultural legacy shows that there was something going on. Like I even read that they were thinking about turning it into a stage adaptation, which if they did that, it would be a hit. No doubt in my mind. It would kill.

It's a Cinderella story. It literally is a Cinderella story. There's so many really good, like campy, fun, 90s rags to riches stories. And this should be more discussed. I hope that this movie experiences a resurgence. And that would be the perfect way to do it is like this movie is screaming to be adapted into a musical. Yeah. And I do think like there are topics that are dealt with in the movie with humor that are like very real pieces of cultural

discourse in the black community like the montage when mickey is making the food and they're like oh the nutritionist said that this food clogs the arteries and she's like no not the way that i make it and i know it's it's played for a laugh but like there are today like conversations about soul food and whether or not it's healthy and this idea that, oh, well, collard greens are very similar to kale, but one of those foods enjoys a connotation of being health food and one doesn't, even though they're practically the same thing. That is a very real cultural conversation that is endured today. And the movie plays with that and has a discourse about that in a humorous way, albeit. But I think there are more serious things going on in this film than some of these critics may be clocked.

Which is like part of what makes Robert Townsend such an amazing filmmaker, because we covered Hollywood Shuffle of gosh, a couple of years ago now. Yeah. Oh, nice. But that's like what he's great at is like finding a way to talk about hyper specific, like have these conversations in a comedy montage versus like a very didactic, serious thing. Like it just feels very Robert Townsend-y. But I wanted to just share Troy Byer's feelings on the adaptation, partially just because I love drama. Because you're messy.

Because I do love reading about drama and I think it is really interesting where like this is the sort of quote that you always want the confirmation of but you very rarely actually get and it just feels like a kind of a good lesson for writers in general because it seems like what the issue ultimately was with Troy Byer and Robert Townsend is that Robert Townsend is generally a writer director and seemed to be on set very comfortable adjusting stuff as he went because he was adjusting his own writing but in this case this is the first movie he directed that was not written by him and it seems like he used that same approach of like well I don't quite like how that

works we're gonna adjust it. That ended up in Troy Byer's opinion, kind of meaningfully affecting what she had written, which is an interesting, hyper-specific kind of problem that I don't think indicates any ill will on Robert Townsend's part, but it's just interesting. So Troy Byer gave an interview the year after this came out as she was promoting a movie that she had written and directed after being unhappy with how BAPS had gone called Let's Talk About Sex. So here's her quote. When I saw the final cut, I was so devastated because I really believed that my words had not honestly made it onto the screen. The director was a writer director himself, and it was the first time he directed someone else's writing. He took the liberty of changing

stuff as he shot the film. At the end of the day, when I saw the film, I hated it. I was really embarrassed and it was too late for me to take my name off the picture. Then I got killed by critics. Me, the writer. I thought, I'm just going to take the money from this awful experience and put it into my own film. I'm going to direct it and make sure my words make it to the screen. If the critics try to kill me now, there's nothing they can say that's going to hurt me because I know I did my very best. Those are my words on screen and I stand by them. I took the money from BAPS to make my movie. Wow.

Which is also, I mean, I don't know. I'm on, I think, team everybody here. This is also like Troy Byer's first screenwriting credit. She started as an actor she has since gotten a master's degree in eco liberation and community psychology and a doctorate in clinical psychology she's written like she's truly very very interesting she's written self help books she was married to the guy that produced all of the saw movies for 15 years you're just like iconic I know I was pretty thrilled to find out that there is a direct

Babs to saw connection but I don't know I mean I don't think that that takes away from the movie because it did just seem like a creative chafing and kind of like a lesson that a lot of writers learn and why a lot of writers become directors is because that shit will happen but i just wanted to share yeah that and also she's in the movie which is wild she's in the movie so i wonder if she like observed scenes where she's like, this isn't how I wrote this. Oh, God. What are you doing, Robert? Make my skin crawl. I'd be so stressed.

There's, like, things that I'm, like, credited as having written, and I've seen the episode and been like, huh, well, I guess I wrote that. Does it happen a lot in the biz? Yeah. It's definitely been my experience. And I don't mean, like, there's nothing. But, like, there's, you know, especially in like sitcom writing where there's like jokes that were there that you're like, I didn't write that or I don't know. So anytime someone's like, well, the writing of this, the writer should have been thinking, I'm like, just putting it out there. Very likely they did not write that. And there's also jokes I've really enjoyed that I've been credited with that absolutely were not me.

So it goes both ways. Yeah, it does go both ways. But you do end up getting credit that you don't deserve as well. Let's take another quick break and we'll come back for more discussion. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia.

I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you.

I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110.

120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare.

This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm.

Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you think of Mexican culture, you think of avocado, mariachi, delicious cuisine, and of course, lucha libre. It doesn't get more Mexican than this. Lucha libre is known globally because it is much more than just a sport and much more than just entertainment. Lucha Libre is a type of storytelling. It's a dance. It's tradition. It's culture.

This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12-episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of Lucha Libre. And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, the emperor of Lucha Libre and a WWE superstar. Join me as we learn more about the history behind this spectacular sport from its inception in the United States to how it became a global symbol of Mexican culture. We'll learn more about some of the most iconic heroes in the ring. This is Lucha Lib behind the mask listen to lucha libre behind the mask as part of my cultura podcast network on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you stream podcasts and we're back something i really appreciate about this movie is that it centers to black female friends. There are so few movies about, I mean, female friendship in general, and then specifically black female friendship. And it feels like a really

real authentic friendship because you see them supporting each other. They're lifting each other up, but it's not as though they're like always agreeing on everything. Like we see them disagree about how to handle things. We see them trying to hold each other accountable for something, usually how they're conducting themselves around a celebrity. Yes. It's like, you know, they're challenging each other. They're disagreeing, but they're also ultimately just like very loving and supportive of each other. And they're so funny together. Like,

I love to see women be funny in movies because it seldom is allowed to happen because until like pretty recently, it felt like women were not ever written to be the funny characters in comedy movies. They were like the Killjoys, the Shrews, because they were often movies written by men who were bringing in all of their biases it's usually the men who get to be the funny ones in comedy movies but like Halle Berry and Natalie DeSalle Reed are clowning in almost every scene like the physical humor the jokes like everything is just so funny it's so goofy I love it and the fact i feel like a lot of that is likely attributable to the fact that a black woman wrote this yeah for sure yeah and uh their

friendship is so supportive i like i feel like it's very often in a friendship movie where you get like one friend turns on the other and it is like I'm gonna have this come up by myself and fuck you it's like Raven during the Cheetah Girls yeah she's like I'm the star but even when the other one is not making great choices they are always supportive of each other there's never a question that like one person's success is not going to be the other person's success i think that that's a really beautiful thing that yeah you just like rarely get in a movie about women because we're so conditioned to think that women will turn on each other yeah they'll be petty they'll backstab each other yeah all that kind of stuff because those are the stories that are

written by men and that's what we're used to seeing but yeah there's never any moment like that they're just there for each other every step of the way i also want to note that there's more body diversity in this movie than you normally see because mickey is fat there's no attention drawn to that it's just completely, a very normal part of her character. I wonder if there is an argument to be made that like, she's the one who is like the cook, she cooks soul food, and you know, the thin one does hair and is like more focused on like a kind of beauty oriented thing. And if there's some kind of like veiled thing there, but I think you'd almost kind of beauty oriented thing. And if there's some kind of like veiled thing there, but I think you'd almost kind of have to read into that to like, reach that conclusion. Because at least on

like, the surface or the way it's presented, it just like all feels very normalized, at least to me. Yeah, I would agree. And I would also even go further and say that like, in the 90s and today, it's so easy to be like oh well Halle Berry is the thin one and so she has the fleshed out inner world she has the romantic partner but they're both kind of given like they both have partners I don't like either of their partners but they both have like a romantic arc and I did notice there were a couple of places where it would be very easy to have Mickey be the one who was doing physical things like the scene with the bidet it splashes up in Halle Berry's face and I think in

a lot of movies it was like oh ha ha have the funny fat friend do something really physical and this movie takes I think takes intention to lean away from that a little bit at times for sure it's like equal opportunity slapstick physical comedy also i think in a lot of movies it would have been the case where the you know thin traditionally beautiful by western beauty standards character would be the protagonist and then her friend would be like the quote-unquote sidekick who doesn't have any kind of subplot of her own or any scenes where it's just focusing on her. But she also has that like separate love story kind of thing with Antonio, who, of course, ends up being like awful and deceitful. But we see a number of scenes where the focus of the scene is on Mickey and Niecy is nowhere to be seen.

Right. And there's like never any I don't know I feel like often when a fat character especially during this era is given a love interest it's like in this condescending way but like you also just have Natalie to sell and she's fucking rocks and is gorgeous yeah she's the cutest but it does feel like rare and again the movie is written by a woman like there's nothing for me at least that happens in mickey's story that feels like a reflection of her body i do feel like even though we have dual protagonists here that nisi is ultimately more so the protagonist than Mickey. Yeah. Because we get like, I don't know, it felt a little uneven to me, which doesn't necessarily feel pointed. Also,

Halle Berry is famous. And I think she was quite famous by this point. Right. So it's funny that you would ask like she was getting famous. But at this time, we had not sort of accepted that Halle Berry was a star star. And so she had done. Interesting. The Spike Lee movie Jungle Fever, where she plays Samuel L. Jackson's girlfriend. And she's like heavily drug addicted. And it's very sad. She's in that movie Losing Isaiah, where she's another person who has kind of a sad trajectory in the movie.

She's in the Flintstones. That's right. She's the the Flintstones. That's right. She's the like sexy secretary alongside Billy Zane. She turns out to be like the bad guy in that movie. Not to spoil it. Oh my God, Kel Hockley. Yes. And her character's name is Sharon Stone in the Flintstones.

Very 1994. Amazing. She's also in Boomerang in 92. So she's like famous, but maybe not leading lady famous yet. Is that where we're at? That's what I would put it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's sort of getting there. But like, I think that if there was like a star attached to this movie, it was Halle Berry. Right. Because I was like, where is Halle Berry in her career at this point? Okay, so she's not like, it's not peak Halle Berry quite yet.

Correct. I feel like that's maybe early 2000s, either way. Yeah, I feel like Niecy does kind of get the edge in terms of the attention that the movie pays. And I think it like clicked for me meaningfully, even though it's like, it's not like Mickey is in it less, but Niecy's story kind of takes precedence more. Her relationship with Mr. Blake more is closer and the movie puts more emphasis on it and her relationship with her boyfriend from home is given way more precedence because when Mickey's boyfriend comes back James you're sort of like who is this guy again but we've been hearing about Niecy's boyfriend the whole time true in that scene in the car I was like they're

gonna do it they're gonna do it where she's like I've been in love with someone from day one. I was like, I've only ever seen this man yell at you. Yeah. No, no. Is this the time to talk about how much I hate the boyfriends? Yes. Lay into them. So I like a lot about this movie, but the thing I cannot stand is the boyfriends and the scene at the end I feel like this comes up in movies that y'all talk about a lot where Mickey and Niecy have this like trajectory where they learn a lot about themselves and they have a lot of developments all of that meanwhile all Niecy's boyfriend does is I guess get his driver's license and cut his hair and that like that's meant to be like oh he is good enough for me now poor mickey her

boyfriend doesn't do anything but cry and be like i want to take you out to dinner and then falls into a pool as far as we know he has no character arc no development he has just come back and is just crying at her and he also like insults her multiple points i think he's the only example i don't well actually which boyfriend was it it's either her boyfriend or. I think he's the only example. Well, actually, which boyfriend was it? It's either her boyfriend or Niecy's boyfriend in the club when they're still in Georgia that calls her a heifer.

That's the only example I could find in the movie that her size is commented on in any way. And it's by someone that loves her? Hate it. fuck you i think what's going on here is a trope that was like very popular in the 90s it's still a thing now but like i think we're getting away from it which is like it is much better to be just with somebody than

single right i think that either of these two women especially at the end when they get the money would be much better off without either of these two scrubs but i think in the universe of this movie they're like oh well better to have somebody who calls you a heifer than nobody and yeah i just i hate that so much they would be much better off without either of those guys yes for sure i don't know why they're there at all or if they need to be there at the beginning to signify like these women don't have a full understanding of their worth yet but then they learn that and they learn that they're better off without these guys and they dump them and then they're written out of the movie for the rest of the movie but why do they come back and why do they have like

a redemption arc and I think it's implied that like the cars in their car service business that they start up are the same cars from the estate so they just like get those cars for free and then they're like here's our business now and it's like no you guys don't deserve any of this you treat your girlfriends poorly and you need to get the fuck out of here yes like the girls had an arc that led to them getting the money. So presumably the guys are just taking some of their money to start their and the cars to start their business, which was lofty to begin with. And we're meant to swoon.

Like, I don't I don't like it. Y'all can keep that. It stinks. Yeah. No, I that was really really frustrating and even with the way that they're loser coded feels also very like kind of entrenched in class and presentation too because really all that's changed when nisi's boyfriend whose name escapes me and will continue to that's okay when he's no uh no that's mickey's boyfriend ollie yes when ollie comes back all that's really

changed is how he's presenting himself he's presenting himself in a more upper class quote unquote respectable way but it's like yeah that doesn't change how you have treated her this entire time and it it feels like this sort of other side of a cinderella come up narrative where it's like if a guy learns how to dress differently uh like they're richer then all is forgiven and it implies that like that makes him a better person and he does treat her better once he's wearing nicer clothes it's just like meh I don't know very 90s mentality yeah there is like a thing that happens within the universe of the film with Mickey and Niecy too, where as the film goes on, their clothes and their hair and their nails and their teeth get like less and less and less outlandish. You might be like, oh, well, they're in Beverly Hills and they go shopping.

So they're, you know, learning how to fit in with where they're at. But within the universe of the film, I do have a question of, well, is the film trying to be like, oh, the way they were dressed at the beginning is bad. And now that they're dressed more conservative, it's good. And her boyfriend cut his perm, and so that's good. And now they are a match. Because, again, I recognize that the way that they dress in the beginning is like over the top but like I don't think it's bad and I don't think it's like says something about who they are and I wonder if the movie is maybe saying something different yeah I'm with you on this journey with you because I mean up until that point where the ending also all of the stuff about their dreams

coming true happens during the credits and you're like why why why but yeah like that aesthetic change felt pointed when that was like something i up to that point had really liked about the movie was even though they are deceiving mr blake more i mean rich white men should be tricked it's truly a victimless crime he likes it and he yeah it turns him on so whatever like it seems like everyone is okay with the deception that they're involved with even though there's like brief you know just speaking to like the kind of random unevenness of the movie where Halle Berry is like wracked with guilt in some scenes and then other scenes she's like whatever like I'm on the side of my whatever but either, like outside of that sort of plot contrivance, they're themselves for the whole movie.

They're not like adjusting who they are. They're not, I think outside of like a few kind of jokes that I, again, I thought was interesting. And I didn't miss that. They didn't get into it more, but like Halle Berry has like an etiquette book and etiquette books are so entrenched in how to act like a respectable white woman and that's just what that whole cottage industry is especially the further back in time you go but that dropped immediately and they're themselves the whole movie and they are appreciated for being themselves and so to see that little aesthetic change at the end felt like well they were like loved and accepted for who they were yeah it feels like the movie

doesn't kind of misses an opportunity to comment on the fact that like yes they feel the pressure to adhere to this like standard of propriety that is very much put forth by like wealthy white society and that they're like trying to adhere to it either from an etiquette point of view which there's like scenes where someone says like oh how are you and then like mickey responds and like the way that she traditionally would and then nisi cuts in to be like no we're doing very well thank you like in a very like proper kind of way but yeah they usually abandon that sort of like etiquette propriety stuff that they were trying to learn and then they just behave like themselves but as far as like their aesthetic choices which is like one of the most memorable

things about their characters and like the poster is like very much like look at them and their flashy outfits and their wacky hairdos and stuff like that that gets more and more toned down throughout the movie and I feel like the movie doesn't fully comment on like well why are they like leaning into adhering to these like standards of propriety when that's not who they are? Like, that's not how they want to present themselves. And it just sort of like, yeah, well, they're just doing it. The end. So I wish there had been more like thoughtful examination of that. Yeah. And I think that their aesthetic choices are such a big part of this

movie and something that I was really, and I would also want for the movie to sort of take stock of that a little bit differently, the same as you. And I also like a quote that was looming large in my mind when I was rewatching this was from this fashion designer, Norisha Willis, who used to do these shirts that say ghetto until proven fashionable because you're meant to think that these outfits are outlandish and over the top. But if they were wearing them today, like on TikTok or on Instagram, they would absolutely kill. Oh my God, yeah. Wouldn't they?

They would absolutely kill. And so I do think it goes back to what I was saying about when I saw this movie as a youth, to me, it felt like sometimes over the top celebration of the ways that sometimes these fashion choices can be so creative. So like on another level, so future forward, just so doing their own creative, distinct, different thing that certainly took creative know how to get there. And today in 2024, that is like even more salient. But within the universe of the film, again, I agree with you, Caitlin. I don't know that they are aware of the ways in which people like me are watching it and being like, oh my God, they're trendsetters, you know?

Yeah. Right. It feels like a very like having it both ways where it's like the movie obviously knows that they look incredible but it's also undercut by like but this is like can't be quote-unquote like low class incredible you're like no this is like really influential fashion and the outfits at the end you know they look great because they're gorgeous but what is that that's a pantsuit. It's not them. Yeah. That's like a Hillary Clinton outfit. You know, like it's, I don't, I don't love it. It's especially frustrating considering that like so much of American pop culture, which permeates like global pop culture as far as just clothes and media and all that kind of stuff is invented by black people and black women

so it's like well then why are they toning it down like oh i mean also that's invented the fact that the term baps like that existed prior to this movie and it is so just i don't know like weird maybe tongue-in-cheek to just attribute it to Martin Landau when this is very much a term that came out of the black community but they're like no it's basically Martin Landau's idea he was dying one day and was like guess what I just thought of anyways yeah I don't know there's other tropes that this movie subscribes to that I am more tempted to attribute to like the Cinderella genre we're in, where there is like devious nephew, right? But ultimately the two old white men in this movie

are great guys that deserve the best, which is very like part, I think of Mr. Bald from Annie or whatever. Who's Mr. Bald? What's his name? Mr. No Hair. I can't think of his name daddy warbucks yes right like just someone that you're like the way that they got this money has to be evil you can't get this much money doing something good for the world but in the world of this rags to

riches story they are this benevolent force that has to be on the side of our protagonist, which is often a young woman or girl. Rich, white, old man gives young woman a lot of money. You know, I'd accept it. But this is very much a formula that exists. And I feel like the Martin Landau character being at the end of the day, a nice old man, it falls cleanly into that. What do we think he did for a living? Or like, how do you think he made his millions? They said fabrics. Oh, fabrics.

That's right. Which I'm like, that. So I'm not optimistic about his like labor. Right. The labor practices, I'm sure, very exploitative. But we're not supposed to think about that. No. No, no, no, no.

Or any movie like it. Right. I would like to draw some parallels between this movie and Eddie Murphy Haunted Mansion. Because both movies. Yeah. Brave of me to do. Thank you so much. involve a rich white guy who was in love with a black woman and the family disapproved and she ends up gone in a way and we're not really sure what happens to her. We don't even know if she's

alive or not. I guess we're like are they going to say if she's alive? Is he going to ask if she's alive? I thought maybely would show up me at some point but no we're not really sure right it seems like pointed that they weren't saying that she had died yeah it was like oh she's gonna come back at the end to be like hallie berry you imposter but she doesn't we will die with that mystery we don't know we will in haunted mansion at least we know that that woman does very dead die but anyway also there's like a butler in both stories who's like they play out very differently in the two movies but there is a butler who's like very loyal to his rich white guy boss and you know so i think that's where the parallels end but that's still

i mean but yeah the butler in haunted mansion ends up being quite evil yeah yeah yeah he gets dragged to hell playing butler stereotypes justice for butlers sorry i'm on daddy warbucks's wikipedia page i thought you were to say DaddyWarbucks.com. I was Googling, what did Daddy Warbucks do? Bad. He was an industrialist, but his Wikipedia page is very funny, and he is not real. He eventually became a foreman in the rolling mill, married Mrs. Warbucks, and worked and planned for a family and house of their own. When Daddy began...

They call him Daddy throughout the movie. When daddy began to make big money during World War I, his marital happiness was lost. You're like, oh no, daddy. Daddy, no. Daddy. Also a foreman in a mill, who is this Billy Zane from Titanic?

Yeah, it is villain coded. Daddy. That's basically who Martin Lantau is in this. They keep calling him uncle. He's uncle daddy. He's daddy. And that's fine. Yeah.

Does anyone have anything else they'd like to talk about? I just had one other note, which is that some of the references in this movie were so, first of all, very of an era, but also so tight. When the girls are fighting Antonio, they think he's a burglar and they're like, I'm going to do him like Tyson. And she's like, oh, you didn't see the last fight because you were in the kitchen getting popcorn.

Do you remember how in the 90s, Tyson was known for like these big hyped boxing matches would only last for like 30 seconds because he would knock people out? And so I remember distinctly my parents had a fight party and my dad went to get burgers off the grill. And when he came back, the fight was over and they had paid like, I don't know, however much money back then, $100 or something to get the fight on pay-per-view. And it was like, well, I guess you missed it. Wow. Okay. I guess you missed it. Oh, wow. Okay, I did not know that. Some of these references are so tight and so just like...

It's good. It's good. Unfortunately, one of my favorite jokes is from one of the loser boyfriends. What can you do? But it's when Mickey's boyfriend, James, is saying how, oh, when we go out to dinner, you know, we have to watch other people eat. And he's crying and he's like, I want to eat too. Okay, that was a pretty good line.

I'll give him that. That's a good joke. He had one moment. He had one moment. And then he Leonardo DiCaprio'd and fell into a body of water. And fell into the fully clothed. Wait, is that a Leonardo DiCaprio'd and fell into a body of water. And fell into the fully clothed. Wait, is that a Leonardo DiCaprio-ism? Yes, in every movie he's in, basically.

He will end up in a body of water with all of his clothes on. I made a super cut to this effect. It's stunning. And if you want to watch it, you should come to our Shrek-tanic tour in the UK because we will be showing it at the show. Really great plug opportunity. Yeah. That was masterful. Thank you so much. Thank you. article that opens with just a couple of statistics that illustrates how like we've been talking about

this whole episode how this is a rare movie that centers black women and also allows them to have fun and be goofy and how rare that is and then that countered with the other thing we've been talking about which is how hyper critical and overly critical critics tend to be of movies that don't really exist very often yeah how Ann Cohen opens the article is with these stats that I thought were interesting Hollywood released approximately 143 movies in 1997 of those just 17 starred a black performer in the top billing most of those roles as with men and black double team money talks most wanted and switchback were given to black men opposite white male co-leads others like amistad focused on a historic slavery narrative so that there's only

really a couple of movies each year especially at this time that centers strictly black characters at all much less black women the only other ensemble movies that came out we've actually covered one uh is love jones and soul food so yeah i just like speaks to like this movie does it have its faults yes yeah it's also a goofy comedy from 1997. It's an extremely goofy movie, I would say. I would say that as well. Representation. As a goofy black girl, we need representation for our goofy, corny asses to engage in some screwball hijinks on screen.

Yeah. We need more hijinks. More hijinks. Yeah, I think that was all I had. Does anyone else have anything? Nope. This movie passes the Bechdel test. Yes, it does.

The women are talking now and then about their boyfriends or about Don or Antonio, but they also talk about hair. They talk about food. They talk about opening up their business. They talk about dancing. They talk about opening up their business, they talk about dancing, they talk about being in LA, all that kind of stuff. So handily passing. What about our nipple scale though, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I'm tempted to go like a three and a half or four on this one.

I love that this is a movie made by Black filmmakers that features and centers a friendship between two Black women that is fun and light. And there's a distinct lack of tragedy which again like as we were just kind of hinting at so many stories especially from this era that centered black characters were like rife with the tragedy of the black experience and this movie is just like all about like it's a cinderella story as we've been saying like it's a fairy tale and it's just like so fun to watch these characters and I don't know why the boyfriends are there write them out of the story there's some like kind of class implications that I don't love but other than that it's just like such a fun movie about two black women who are best friends and they're grifting a rich white guy.

And that's what should happen all the time. And I just can't emphasize enough how much he's loving the grift. Yeah. He loves it. He's obsessed. So I'm going to give it four nipples. I am sad on Troy Byer's behalf that she didn't like the final product and felt that her story and her words in the screenplay were not properly translated to film. But despite that, it's still a fun, enjoyable movie for me. So I'm going to go four nipples and I will split them between Troy Byer, Halle Berry and Natalie DeSalle Reid.

I think I'm going to go three and a half because I really feel Troy Byer's pain here and being like, it's my big break. I've been acting for years. This is my big screenwriting break black women so infrequently get to write anything on a scale like this and then to watch it and be like oh my heart is with her and also i think that there's so much to love about this movie it's so fun it centers black women and their friendship in ways that we almost never see in movies even now the ways that i find it frustrating are very of its time mostly the boyfriends, honestly. I think that it didn't become permissible until sometime in the 2000s for a protagonist who is a straight woman to end up not with a man. Even if that man is not good for her, she's got to end up with somebody.

And that is the case here. But I feel like if you can cut through that noise, it's just like the performances are so funny. I love like we don't get to see Halle Berry do comedy ever, which is I feel like the dancing audition line scene alone. You're like, well, we more of uh Halle Berry comedy movies and Natalie DeSalle is a master comic actor she's amazing and I wish she had more to do here I wish that there was like more of an even protagonist situation here but I love to see her I love her it's so wild that she was in two really fun, amazing, very different Cinderella stories that centered black women in the same year. Good for you, 1997. And yeah,

hate the boyfriends, love the baps. Three and a half nipples. Put that on a shirt. I would buy it. Hell yeah. Is it out of five nips? Out of five nips. Yes. I'm going to go for, obviously I have a soft spot for this movie. I feel like any movie that you watched with your head cradled on your hands, on your tummy, while kicking your feet at a slumber party, you can only go so low. I agree.

I do feel for the screenwriter and I'm really happy that she spoke up. I would love to see her original version of this movie. Like, what was her vision? I'm also a sucker for a movie that has a lot of random cameos. People of an era playing themselves, you know. I don't think... Heavy D is in the movie, yeah. So, like, there's that one scene where they go to dinner and it's like every celebrity ever is having dinner.

It has the same reservation time. So I love all the fun 90s cameos. Yeah. Yeah. I just I love a screwball comedy. And I just get the sense that the two leads were like off screen and on screen like friends. You just can just sense a warmth from them that is really delightful. So I'll go for it.

Oh, yeah. Beautiful. Bridget, thank you so much for joining us again. It's always such a treat to have you come back anytime. Oh, my God. Thank you for having this. You know, this was such a great way to spend my getting to watch Babs and then talk about it thoughtfully for an hour. Like, thank you.

This is a gift. We're so happy to do it. Like, it's really put me in a great mood. Right. I finished watching. I was like, I got it's This movie put me in a great mood. Right? I finished watching it and I was like, I, oh God, it's so hard to be in a great mood. And this movie put me in a great mood. Truly.

Where can people check out your work, follow you on social media, et cetera? Yeah, you can check out my podcast on iHeartRadio called There Are No Girls on the Internet. You can, later this month, depending on when this comes out, you can listen to another podcast that I have with Next Chapter Podcasts called Beef, where we are digging into the juiciest historical rivalries

that you've never heard of. Ooh. Hell yeah. You can find me on Instagram at Bridget Marie in D.C., on Twitter at Bridget Marie, on Blue Sky at Bridget Todd, or on TikTok at Bridget Makes Pods. Very nice. I just learned what blue sky was.

How did I miss it? I have an account and I posted once and then I was like, all right, good for you. You did it. My New Year's resolution was to use Twitter less. So that's I'm trying to like play with blue sky more. So maybe I'll see y'all there. Hell yeah. Yeah.

See you there anyway you can follow us on patreon aka our matreon at patreon.com slash spectralcast we release two episodes every month plus you'll get access to our back catalog of over 150 episodes at this point all for five dollars a month if you live in the uk you can come see us on tour we're gonna be touring throughout the uk in a number of cities more days to come in late may so check that out and you can also get our merch at tpublic.com slash the bechtel cast that's right links to all of that stuff including the ticket links for our tour are at linktree slash spectral cast so scoot over there grab those tickets grab that merch wear it to the show etc and yeah we'll see you later wow amazing dismount i have a reservation along with

every famous person in beverly hills at the restaurant hair salon. So if you'd like to join me and scream at various celebrities, that's where I'll be. Yeah. And I'm going to go there and be like, Oh my God, Jamie Loftus. I love you. I love your book.

Raw dog. I'll be like, easy, easy. I'm just trying to eat hair. Say hey to Dennis Rodman for me while you're there. Yes, yes,

yes. Will do. Will do. All right. Yes, yes. Will do. Will do. All right, bye. Bye. The Bechdelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde.

Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrosensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus. And a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.com. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated.

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