The Bechdel Cast - Preacher's Wife with Natasha Scott-Reichel and Justine Kay

Episode Date: November 30, 2023

On this episode, special guests Natasha Scott-Reichel and Justine Kay of the podcast '2 Black Girls, 1 Rose' join for a chat about The Preacher's Wife. On this episode, Jamie and Caitlin write special guest Jesse David Fox into existence so they can all discuss Ruby Sparks! (This episode contains spoilers) For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast Follow @2blackgirls1rose on Instagram.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel,

available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology, swaps of different meds, but by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane,

what we can do about it, and why we should care. Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked, if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast, start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Hey, Reverend Jamie. Hi. Angel Caitlin? Yeah, it's me.

Or wife Caitlin. No, no, no, I'm guardian angel Caitlin. You're guardian angel. But now that you mentioned your wife, I just want to say that she's awesome and so pretty and I love her. Is that cool? Yeah, me too. I just like, I'm busy running the entire church.

Okay. So you don't really have time for her and I can have her. Well, no. But let's make sure to not really ask her how she feels at any point. Just to be sure. Of course not.

Yeah. Okay, great. That went so well. Good talk. Good talk. Okay, now I banish you back to heaven and make sure to Men in Black style wipe my memory before you go. So it's as if the movie didn't happen.

Exactly. But little Jeremiah, he's gonna remember me. Well, yeah, because he's a childlike wonder. He believes in the magic of Christmas, something, something, the little bell from Polar Express, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's beautiful. Anyway, hello and welcome to the Bechdel cast. Great intro as usual. We're recording earlier in the day than usual. You have to cut us some slack. No, no, I think the people loved it. It's true. It's true. My name is Jamie

Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. And this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point. But Reverend Jamie, what is that? I could get used to this. So the Bechdel test is a media metric originally created or co-created by Alison Bechdel with her friend Liz Wallace, originally as a bit for her comic from the 1980s, Dykes to Watch Out For. Originally a way of talking about how women were rarely talking to each other about anything in a movie, much less not men.

The version of the test we use is we require that two people of a marginalized gender with names talk to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue or more this is going to be a journey today uh yeah true and we have because it's the holiday season we are covering holiday movies and boy do we have a holiday movie for you today long time request the. The Preacher's Wife from 1996, starring Whitney Houston and Denzel Washington and Courtney B. Vance, directed by Penny Marshall. I mean, you can't argue with that lineup. You just certainly cannot. And here with us to chat about the movie are the hosts of

the podcast, Two Black Girls, One Rose. It's a podcast uncovering what we can learn about modern dating love and relationships from popular television it's natasha and justine hi guys welcome welcome thank you thank you thank you for bringing us this beautiful wholesome and a little weird movie it's one of my favorite remakes. I didn't realize it was a remake until I started doing the research for it. So, yeah, it's adapted from an older movie from 1947 called The Bishop's Wife, which was adapted from a novel of the same name from, I think, published in the 20s or something like that. Yeah, the original starred Cary Grant and Loretta Young, I think. Yep.

That's right. I did not watch it, but it seemed to be very popular. Oh, I've never watched it. No. That's right. I don't know where I would watch it. Yeah. It's interesting.

I mean, I feel like in the 30s and 40s, there was a bajillion movies about the spirit of Christmas. And then also in the 90s. And then now it's mostly just like Netflix movies about a woman getting bonked on the head on Christmas Eve. So true. So tell us about your relationship, your history with this movie. Justine, do you want to go first? Sure, I can go first. I know this movie line by line. I could play to go first? Sure, I can go first. I know this movie line by

line. I could play every single character. I could sing every single song. At the very beginning of the movie where she was using ad libs to kind of call and response with the rest of the congregation in the church. I knew every single cue. I knew the lean. I knew the choreography. I know this movie inside and out. So I'm so excited to talk about every element of it. It's also a lot of elements in this movie have happened to me. I've lived with my grandmother, with my family. I have been in the choir at church. My mom is currently in many choirs at church. And church culture was a big part of my growing up. I grew up in a really small church so this is a really fun movie for me nice and natasha how about you yeah damn i didn't know

that justine this is like this is oh yeah it movie damn documentary i'm learning something is a documentary right oh. Starring Justine. I have not watched this in a couple of Christmases. It hasn't been in my usual repertoire. I don't know why. We listen to the album for sure, Christmas morning, cooking breakfast usually. But, yeah, it's been a minute since I watched the movie.

So it was definitely like a walk down memory lane a little bit, remembering the story. But I loved it. I mean, you can't beat Denzel, Whitney. I mean, the ensemble cast, just everybody. Yeah, the cast was crazy. The music is crazy. The story is, you know, magical. And yeah, definitely very nostalgic.

I also grew up in the church. And yeah, just watching those elements, just very familiar. And yeah, it'd been a while, but I'm excited to talk about it with like very fresh eyes. Jamie, how about you? I'd seen this movie a couple of times before. I was really into basic cable holiday movie marathons, Halloween marathons, whatever it was showing on tnt around the holiday i saw it with 5 000 commercial breaks which is also how i watched it on tubi to prepare for this episode oh my god so many commercials on tubi okay as long as we've all had i was like wow okay i'll buy laundry pods my god but uh yeah i'd seen it

growing up several times i would also say like natasha i grew up more with the soundtrack than the movie itself okay um but i'd seen it many times the soundtrack is very christmas eve christmas morning nostalgic and the one thing i remember knowing about this movie the strongest was my mom was really into the fact that whitney houston's mom was in this movie as well and so she was i think just mom solidarity don't really know but she was like that's what they use this time that's her real mom i didn't realize well not playing her mom not playing her mom not her she's in it though she's like a cameo okay yeah the one i think it's the correct me i think it's the exchange where it's the woman who stops her and is like are you sure that you

want to like split the choir parts like that okay he is like yes and then she's like did you like that you know because she's like it was acceptable and i don't know i like i ended up falling down a rabbit hole of learning about whitney houston's mom who was acceptable and i don't know i like i ended up falling down a rabbit hole of learning about whitney houston's mom who was also a very accomplished singer yeah i just didn't know anyways seen it a couple of times was really delighted to revisit it and i think that there's something to really be said for like a wholesome yet somewhat horny christmas movie um and this really delivers caitlin what's your history? Well, I have never seen the movie before, prepping for this episode.

So the whole spectrum is represented between someone who knows this movie inside and out and someone who had never seen it. So listeners may know that I'm the Grinch of the podcast. I am not really into Christmas spirit. I don't have any. I'm the Grinch of the podcast. I am not really into Christmas spirit. I don't have any. I'm the Grinch's dog. So I don't seek out Christmasy movies very much, unless it's Muppet Christmas Carol,

and then I will watch that every year. Oh, wow. But yeah, so I had never seen this movie. And I don't know what I was expecting, but it was not a horny angel lusting after Whitney Houston and her lusting right back. And then Courtney B. Vance being like, hello, can you not? And that's basically the movie. It's a lot to talk about. lot to talk about yeah so i'm excited to discuss uh should we just get into the recap let's do it all right sounds good actually let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist

who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurarts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and

corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free,

subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. I felt too seen um dragged uh I'm NK and this is basket case so I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown I was crying and I was inconsolable it was just very big sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basketcase, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of

conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Mango? What's that, Will? So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius. I know.

That's why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion. It's about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it's called Earthquake House. Mango, I'm going to cut you off right there. Why don't we just tell people about our show instead? Yeah, that's a better idea. So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world's most important questions. Things like, when did America start dialing 911?

Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto? Also, what happened to Esperanto? Plus, we cover questions like, how Chinese is your Chinese food? How do dollar stores stay in business? And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese? There absolutely is. And we are risking our lives by talking about it. But if you love mind-blowing facts, incredible history, and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune in to Part-Time Genius.

Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so we open with voiceover from a little kid named Jeremiah saying that this story he's about to tell is true, even though no one believes him. So many like wholesome family movies are narrated by little boys specifically. Let's spread the love around. I feel like we've covered several movies this year that begins with like, hi, I'm a little guy. You won't believe what happened.

It reminded me of a recent movie we've covered, Soul Food. Soul Food. I was thinking about that. Yeah, also narrated by the little guy yeah i do love a child narrator though they're the most trustworthy the most honest and you you only see them every 20 minutes or so yeah you're like oh yeah pops and gives a reflection yeah yeah says something profound okay so it's a week from Christmas. We are in a church.

We meet Jeremiah's mom and dad. So that is Julia Biggs, played by Whitney Houston. There's probably a more correct term for this, but I wrote down, she's the lead singer of the church choir. The Beyonce of the choir, yes. The Whitney, the Whitney Houston of the choir. The Whitney Houston of the church choir the beyonce of the choir yes the whitney the whitney houston of the choir director probably would be okay got it yeah nice um and then her husband henry biggs played by courtney b vance he's the reverend at this church called saint mat Matthew's, and he's giving a sermon about temptation. And we're like, foreshadowing much?

It's a very different movie, but it weirdly, because I kind of forgot how horny this movie was. But there's also another trope of movies that take place in church. It always starts with an omin ominous foreshadowing pulpit talk the same thing happens in doubt very oh my god it also starts with like so anyways different movies different movie also one of my favorites, though. I love Doubt. I really love Doubt, yeah. Jamie's a big Doubt head, yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so then we also meet Julia's mom, Marguerite, played by Jennifer Lewis. And things are not going great at the church. They're not pulling in many donations. They have to close the youth center. Henry just feels like he's not doing much good for the community. And so he prays to God to send him some help. And then out of the sky falls Dudley. That's Denzel Washington. And Dudley is thrilled about being there. He's jumping around, he's dancing, and we're like, hmm, what's going on here?

He scares the children. He does scare them away. Can I just say one thing about the amount of Black icons that we see in the first 10 minutes of this film? We see Loretta Devine, Jennifer Lewis, Paul Bates, and Sherry Headley,erry headley aka lisa mcdowell the icon so i just wanted to say how many black icons especially at that time i want to say between like 89 and 97 those were like really really standout black actors yeah and then more will show up because Richie has a cameo. I forgot about that. Richie was a jump scare. Yeah, he was. But he was good.

Like, he did well. Yeah. Okay, so Dudley has fallen out of the sky. And he approaches Reverend Henry. And he's like, hey, I'm here on behalf of God. And I'm here to answer your request. But Henry doesn't believe him. He thinks it's some kind

of joke and he drives off. So Dudley's like, okay, I guess I'll try a different approach. Then a young black man named Billy gets arrested because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and he's racially profiled. So he gets put in jail. Henry goes to the police station to try to help, but he can't really do anything about it. And then Henry's car won't start, and Dudley shows up again, and then Henry's car magically starts. And Dudley's like, yeah, I did that, because once again, I'm an angel. And then he explains that he, you know, used to be a human on earth his time was cut short he went to heaven he became an angel and he's just been waiting for a chance to come back to earth and help and do good everyone's reception of an angel in this movie is on a scale like it makes

sense how courtney b vance to him. Cause he's like, I just don't believe you. This is all in a day's work to be, to like, you know, passively accept what someone is saying. But later on, it's like,

seems like other people fully believe he's an angel. And they're like, yeah, there's this angel who's hanging out with us now. It's Christmas. I guess it's the week before Christmas. But everyone thinks that he was just like sent by the church council to help. I don't think anyone else realizes he's an angel.

They're just like, he's a guy. He's a nice guy. He's hot. But Whitney does. And Whitney's like, hmm, okay. I'm used to like any time there's like a supernatural occurrence there there has to be a scream there has to be a freaky friday moment but everyone's just sort of like wow this is wild merry christmas to all i also love dudley's like imagery of like these angels in a waiting room

in heaven just like waiting to get sent down just like how does it work what's the process or even he seems like excited like oh and i made it my number was called i was like oh Evan just like waiting to get sent down. I'm just like, how does it work? What's the process? Or even he seems like excited. Like, Oh, I made it. My number was called. I was like,

Oh, okay. Well, and then based on his clothes, I would guess he died in like the 1950s. I was going to say 19. And because he's wearing like a fedora and like, you know,

the overcoat that like men always wore in that era and so i'm like okay he's been waiting for like 40 or 45 years or so to be sent back down to earth and he doesn't know what like windows is he's like what how do what is computer so i'm like okay he's from a different era and he's been waiting for decades when was pizza popular because he freaks out over the pizza and the hot dog so i don't know when those oh man i have to be better about my food history i gotta research this after the pizza slice yeah jamie write a book about it sorry yeah okay so dudley is with henry and he also outlines the rules of being an angel and helping people on Earth, which are that angels can't do anything that people should be doing. That everything that a person that an angel helps out does has to be of their own free will and finally when an angel has accomplished his mission and leaves

then the person he was helping in this case henry won't have any memory of the angel anymore that sounds like such a bummer job i know he makes being an angel sound like a lot of paper pushing and then uh and like a lot of paper pushing and a lot of waiting around. And then you get to do something amazing. And maybe you'll even fall in love, but you can never have sex. And then no one remembers you and you have to go back to the waiting room. It's a thankless job. You should be able to have sex if you can't remember.

Come on. That just seems unfair. That's true. Right? That's true. Except Jeremiah will remember just seems unfair. That's true. Right? That's true. Except Jeremiah will remember for some reason. Yeah, damn.

He's like, no, mom, I swear to God, you had sex with Denzel Washington. I'm not kidding. Or Jeremiah. The trauma. No one's going to believe that. Like, is this too much?

I know. Yeah, there's a very different tonal sequel to this movie where Jeremiah's in therapy years later being like, I know that this happened, but no one will acknowledge Denzel Washington's presence in my life one week. He's like haunted by the memory of Denzel. Oh, God. Okay, so then as Dudley is saying goodbye to Henry, they shake hands.

And then there's like this surge of warm energy between them. And Henry's like, oh, my God, what was that? And there's music and it's going like. Does it remind you guys of the Broad City whoosh? I didn't connect that on my own, but yeah. When the wind is knocked out of her. Yeah, we love the Broad City whoosh. That's one of my favorite episodes. it's you the wind knocked out of you which is what happens to henry he's like oh my god but

then he's like um actually i don't feel anything and i still don't believe you bye now meanwhile Bye. Now, meanwhile, things are falling apart. The church boiler explodes. Jeremiah's best friend, Hakeem, is taken away to be put in foster care. Billy has to stay in jail because his bail is too high for his friends or family to be able to pay it. And then also things between Henry and his wife, Julia, are not great. He is too busy with a lot of these church matters to have much time for her. And Julia's mother, Marguerite, notices, and she's like, get your house back together. Yeah, Marguerite really is like hey get over it i my husband also neglected me for the same job you're like well can you at least commiserate guys so then dudley shows up again being like actually i'm the reverend's new assistant the church council sent me and henry's secretary beverly played by loretta divine

thinks she's being fired and replaced and dudley's like no no i'm just here i'm an amazing she's so good for that she's so good at that like kind of monologue and playing like an anxious character like yes she does that so well have you guys seen her on watch what happens live no she's one of my all-time favorite guests i watch her have this live she went crazy oh god she got so drunk that show is like chaotic chaos no i know i want to be a bartender so bad so bad and if you're listening please be in the time but yes loretta divine on watch happens live is a very good episode if you want to hear some

gossip i mean incredible yeah i will watch it okay so dudley's like no no i'm just here to help and then julia and marguerite are like sounds good to me especially because you're hot and sexy so we don't mind having you around basically and then dudley hangs out with jeremiah and confronts him because jeremiah is sad that hakeem has just left then henry has a meeting with this guy named joe hamilton played by gregory hines he's a real estate developer who wants to build like basically a mega church and he wants henry to be the reverend there also like another like 80s 90s trope of like a land developer as the main antagonist of the movie

we should bring that back i mean where does that go now more than ever let's villainize landlords so henry reluctantly accepts joe's offer and then when henry tells julia about it she's furious that henry didn't consult her and that he sold out and also her father used to be the reverend at saint matthews so she feels like extra attachment to it and she feels like she doesn't want the church to be abandoned or like her presence or family's presence in the church to go away. That to me was a wild moment. Him selling the church that belonged to his wife's father, like out from underneath her without even consulting. It's like, is this real life?

How are you going to live past this? And she's only allowed to be upset about it for like a scene yeah and then right i was like well get over it you're like shouldn't you be mad too that's like right you have a huge attachment to this church yeah it's like grounds for divorce but it was kind of swept under like it was nothing. This movie was written by men. Yeah, I think that's when the audience starts turning and being like, you know what? Maybe you can't fuck Denzel Washington. Yeah. Right?

Maybe you should. I'm rooting for Julia and Dudley. Yeah, all day. Yeah, that was a scene where I was like, oh, this movie was written by two men. If they're like, well, they'll discuss the fact that this happened. But also, you know, it's ultimately they do accept their decision. Okay, so Dudley, meanwhile, he's concerned about Henry and Julia's marriage. So he's like, Julia, all you need to do is just go dancing together and reignite that spark.

But Henry is too busy to go. So he's like, Dudley, you take her dancing. So Julia, could you imagine handing off your woman to Denzel Washington? I mean, let's go to jazz night. Right. And her littlezel Washington. I mean, let's go to jazz night. Right.

And her little black dress. You know, oh my gosh. And she, when she's walking down the stairs and Dudley's like, hubba hubba. It's so like, I feel like that's the power of Denzel Washington where it's like,

it's not necessarily a horny shot, but he makes it a horny shot. Yeah. The eyes. I know. And it might be a little bit of projection. No. Like you are horny watching Denzel. Right.

Perhaps. Maybe. Yeah. Or horny watching Whitney. Or horny watching Whitney. Even if her wig is shiny. That's true. She's very attractive people yeah that

wig was plastic it was crazy the wig crazy it's fine okay so then julia and dudley go dancing lionel richie's there and he's like julia you should sing the way you used to when you came here because this movie uses any excuse to have Whitney Houston sing. It happens so many times. I think it's actually really important though. I want to talk about it towards the end but I think it is important that Whitney, well it's

important and also I'm sure it was a demand. I will be in this movie if I can sing in 12 scenes. Okay so she sings, Dudley is like woohoo good job and if I can sing in 12 scenes. Okay, so she sings. Dudley is like, woohoo, good job. And they ultimately just have a very nice time at the jazz club.

They come home. Henry is jealous. But there's a vibe. But there's a vibe. There's definitely a vibe. Yes. Heavy. So much so that when they come home,

Henry is very jealous. And he's like, I don't believe this. And Dudley is like, well, that's your problem. You don't believe anything anymore. You're compromising your values. You're ignoring your wife. And you haven't even done anything about your son losing his best friend. And you don't even believe that Billy is innocent. So Henry's like,

maybe he's right. So Henry goes to the courthouse and gives an impassioned speech to the judge. Next thing we know, Billy is free and home. Then there's a scene where Julia and Dudley are ice skating. And. Julia and Dudley are on a date they are on a date and if you're so on a date that she is like jeremiah get out of here yeah even jeremiah was side-eyeing jeremiah on the bench looking like something's not right here

he like knew that he was the third wheel so he's like i need to sit down i need to go over here drink my cocoa and then like julia and dudley if you thought they were vibing before now they are by being and this romantic music is playing and we we're like, is she going to have sex with an angel? What is happening? The thrill through my seven-year-old body if I found out that they were going to have an affair at the local Hilton. Oh, my God. Y'all don't even know. Oh, my God.

Do you all, me and Natasha just had an episode about this reviewing some holiday movies that'll come out the end of November. But we talked about how there's not a whole lot of like on-screen chemistry the way that there used to be in films with couples. Like Whitney and Denzel have such a fair secrecy chemistry. And Whitney and Courtney have such husband- husband wife married 30 years a little witch obama chemistry yeah yeah the chemistry is impeccable this film i think it really is i feel the same way about a lot it feels like there's more of like an algorithmic nature to to casting now and it's like not considered like like okay who are two people with like huge followings that like aren't the same

audience is that yeah just be like they're in love and it's like usually doesn't work yeah i don't think they do chemistry tests anymore yeah before like figuring out who they should cast you're totally they have such discreet affair oh my god specific discretion and you know who else can tell is julia's mom marguerite they come home from ice skating and she all but like screams and she's like you cannot have sex with dudley you're married to hen. And then also Henry sees all the chemistry they have. And he's like, Dudley, stay away from my wife and leave right now. So then there's a scene where Julia and Henry are taking Christmas baskets to people. And Julia calls him out for being jealous and he's like i'm not jealous meanwhile dudley is lurking nearby and he uses his angel powers to blow henry over so he falls in the snow and then julia comes

over and dudley blows her over next to henry because in an earlier scene she had told dudley a story about how when they were kids she and Dudley fell in the snow together and that's how they like knew they were gonna get married someday or something and so now they're in the snow again and they're vibing they're kind of reconnecting as husband and wife and then other things start to get better, too. The church has a new boiler. Henry has arranged to bring Hakeem back to stay with them over the holidays. And then Henry goes to Joe Hamilton, that real estate guy, to be like, never mind. I'm not going to be a sellout in your mega church. And Joe is like, oh, yeah?

Well, I bought the mortgage, and I'm going to tear your church down. And so suddenly the stakes are so high. And then Dudley goes to see Joe Hamilton and he's basically like, I'm an angel and if you tear down this church, I will see to it that you go straight to hell. Oh my God. They have the piano that they have at the Magic Castle. And you're like, wow, really impressive.

Really cool, God. It's so Christmas movie. Yeah. I love the little subtle random ways that they like wield magic and like the power of God. Like playing the piano. Like why that moment? Yeah. Turning on a radio you know really

powerful stuff he's like wait that not even plugged in you're like yeah okay so i think it's christmas day now dudley comes to the church to say goodbye to Julia, saying it's time for him to leave. And then Henry gives this big Christmas sermon in which he was planning to tell everyone that the church is going to be torn down. But then he goes off script and gives a passionate sermon about hope and love and forgiveness and how an angel helped him and they're gonna save the church and everyone's like woo and Dudley's like oh he finally believes in me and then Julia sings some more because Whitney Houston put in her contract that she has to sing a million songs and then uh joe hamilton is like never mind i won't tear down your church and so all is well which means that dudley's angel mission is accomplished which also means that henry and julia forget he has to go back to what sounds like purgatory it sounds like he works in he works at a call center yeah it literally sounds like

no exit like it sounds scary yeah yes but it's heaven right because dudley accomplished his mission henry and julia forget dudley now they don't recognize him it's like they never met him but jeremiah still does and then the movie ends with the family together and happy they adopt hakeem and now dudley is the angel tree topper on their christmas tree the end yay merry christmas let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered.

There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

I felt too seen. Dragged. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying, and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me?

Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Mango? What's that, Will? So iHeart is giving us a whole minute to promote our podcast, Part-Time Genius. I know. That's why I spent my whole week composing a haiku for the occasion. It's about my emotional journey in podcasting over the last seven years, and it's called Earthquake House. Mango, I'm going to cut you off right there. Why don't we just tell people about our show instead?

Yeah, that's a better idea. So every week on Part-Time Genius, we feed our curiosity by answering the world's most important questions. Things like, when did America start dialing 911? Is William Shatner's best acting work in Esperanto? Also, what happened to Esperanto? Plus, we cover questions like how Chinese is your Chinese food? How do dollar stores stay in business? And of course, is there an Illuminati of cheese? There absolutely is. And we are risking our lives by talking about it. But if you love mind blowing facts, incredible history and really bad jokes, make your brains happy and tune in to Part-Time Genius. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

And we're back. But what if all you wanted for Christmas was to have sex with Angel Denzel Washington? How does that work? How does that square? Yeah, Julia does not get her wish, her Christmas wish. But at least she'll never know. Yeah. Shall we start with some context corner?

Yes. Yeah. So this movie is an adaptation. We already said for a movie from the 40s that none of us have ever seen and probably never will because this one is good. Directed by Penny Marshall, obviously a very iconic director. I'm trying to think of, we've covered several of her movies on this show before. We recently covered Big. We've covered A Leak of Their Own.

And now this movie, as it is written by, I think that this movie is an interesting case, an interesting, I mean, questionable case of a lot of high up white creatives with an all black cast, because the screenplay is in getting this movie made. It was produced through his production company, Monday lane entertainment. And at the time he gave an interview about sort of the importance and his commitment to having an all black cast in this movie. Although he did consider having Julia Roberts in the main part at one point. Yes. And then was like,

nevermind. Oh my God. That would have changed the whole movie part at one point. Yes. What? And then was like, never mind, Whitney Houston. Oh, my God. That would have changed the whole movie. That would have changed everything. Oh, my God. No Jennifer Lewis unless Julia was like adopted or something. Also, Jennifer Lewis is only six years older than Whitney Houston.

I was going to say, she does not give Whitney Houston's mom at all. Yeah. Yeah. I kept forgetting that they were sisters. But okay. Yeah. Yeah. I kept forgetting that they were sisters, but okay. So yeah. Yeah. Denzel Washington said this at the time,

uh, just about his company in general. I'm happy to know that on a film like devil in a blue dress, we put 100 or so many black people to work. And it was the same thing with the preacher's wife. And it will be the same thing with other films that I'm involved in, whether I'm, I'm on a producer level or not.

We do it because they're capable and because nobody else is necessarily looking out for them, speaking about Black actors and Black creatives in general. Yeah. Nice. I love knowing that. I didn't realize that Denzel was, I mean, I saw that Penny Marshall had directed it, but it was Denzel's production company behind it, which that feels good. Also, I think the, we can get into it, but like the representation of the church and the black family. And I think it felt very authentic. So it makes sense that there were black creatives behind the scene that helped make it, you know, bring justice to it.

Yeah. And we stan Penny Marshall, but I was like, why her directing it? Although like apparently Denzel Washington like sought her out specifically and was like you need to direct this movie please and she originally turned it down because she didn't think the script was very good but then it got rewritten and then she came on board Denzel also approached Whitney Houston and was like, you have to be in this movie. And she said, okay, but I did a little bit of research on the novel that it was based on. Which, you know, it's not the most relevant thing, except to say that it ends very, very

differently from both the movie adaptation from the 40s and the preacher's wife she does have sex with denzel washington yes please tell me that's it it's closer to that it's not quite that but it is closer to it so the way the book ends is that the angel who in this case is named Michael, he realizes or he learns that he as an angel can't fulfill quote-unquote mortal love because it's not related to divine intervention. So he can't have sex basically because it would be inappropriate

and it's not divine enough or something. Wow. Very philosophical. Okay. Wow. So, he returns to heaven after helping the bishop character and then Julia realizes that she will never have a passionate relationship with her husband she then decides to have another child to share her love with since she knows she won't get that love from her husband oh god weirdo i got dark that is so weird oh and when i was also looking up this but i couldn't find a whole lot of information about it but it's also listed as like satire i think it might be more satirical than both movie adaptations which i think are far more earnest yeah okay that makes more sense still weird still weird weird but also explains hakeem's character

yes oh he was that other child could be yeah yeah yeah that's a good point because when i ended the movie i didn't really feel that hopeful for whitney i mean i know the music is going and everyone's smiling and it's christmas but like okay the church is still gonna be around that's great but he's still busy as hell like that was the real issue with henry like he's never home so is that problem solved like we don't get any resolve on that so yeah i felt the same way like she's pretty much back to one at the end of the movie. Especially because Henry's assistant, Loretta Devine, is like, remember that part at the end where that character Saul is like, I'm going to marry you. And Reverend, you're going to have to find a new secretary, implying that she won't work anymore now that she's married. Yeah, she's married yeah she's married

so he's gonna be even more busy i mean maybe he'll hire another like assistant or secretary but yeah it ended a little bizarrely to me yeah and then another thing i wanted to point out about kind of the development of this movie is that an earlier version of the script had Julia being quite underdeveloped. So according to an interview with Whitney Houston, she says, was a little sterile. And I thought she needs to be more realistic. She needs to get a little mad sometimes, because she's being put off a lot. She needs expression, she needs to be able to express herself. And she needs a job, she needs something to do, as opposed to the bishop's wife, where she was just the bishop's wife. So I think she pushed for a more developed character in julia with rewrites although i would argue that like they could have done a bit more to develop her because at least for me like the julia character mostly exists as like the object of two men's affection more than

like a fully realized fleshed out character who is like allowed to make active choices and do anything that steers the direction of the story and I think like Whitney Houston being that character like maybe tricks people into thinking she's a more dynamic and interesting character than she actually is but like i kept being like yeah this movie is called the preacher's wife so i expected it to be more about her doing things right but she's kind of like just i mean i saw that quote as well and i was like wow it sucks that whitney houston had to push to get what felt like not even this very much right yeah yeah and i mean i think just in general like i this

is like i don't know if this character is a complete example of this but i feel like there's very often when there's like a woman at the center of a story especially if she is a wife and a mother like she's written in this kind of sterile way and like she's only allowed to have an inner life up to a very particular point and then at a point where it actually become a threat or like too much about her it scales back because the script takes great care to say like she is an excellent wife and mother like that point is hit on repeatedly and that she loves her husband even though i'm like but we can feel the vibe in this scene. But okay, I don't know. Or like the scenes between her and her mother

feel like they're mostly there to reinforce her goodness, even though it's usually her mom yelling at her about potentially, I don't know. I kind of struggled with how kind of underdeveloped she felt. I'm like, just let her have like a crisis about her marriage. Like it doesn't make her a bad person yeah her whole focus is on her focus on her mother's focus is on like the keeping the household together meaning their marriage and yeah she's not really allowed to have

like an outer life i guess she gets this little dalliance with dudley but i think it was yeah interesting how henry his focus is so external and it's fine but it seems as if the issues within their household like the success of it being solved relies on julia like his business his first business is the church and getting that together and And Julia needs to work harder to get his attention back. And that's basically, yeah, what her focus can only be. And as soon as she starts something with Dudley, it eventually gets halted pretty quickly. Right. Yeah.

I will say her involvement and position at the church is a pretty common one. Most of the times the preacher's wife is the head of the music at the church is a pretty common one of most of the times the preacher's wife is the head of the music at the church and her being Whitney Houston obviously gives it a leg up but also this is according to Wikipedia the best-selling gospel album of all time is the soundtrack to this film which is not surprising because it is fantastic but what it also does for Julia is it kind of gives her kind of like a sister act kind of storyline of like i have this talented choir just waiting for stardom like it gives her that kind of leadership position but it's still at her husband's church so it's still kind of underneath her husband's

kind of wing or shadow but what it does do is give her a leadership position and a place where she can like really stand out in this film. Which apparently she had to fight for again. She's like. Yeah. She's like, can my character do, can she have a job? Do anything. Do anything.

Yeah. Yeah. Can I just sell these records? Like, you know, I can. Right. Yeah. But I just thought that was a really, it's a part of the film that I never thought about

of how important the soundtrack is to the development of Julia's character. Totally. Yeah, Justine, because this movie is a documentary. Yes. How did you feel about how the church was representative, portrayed within the movie? So perfectly.

So perfectly. That's why it does not surprise me, even though I didn't know it, about how the church was representative portrayed within the movie so perfectly so perfectly that's why it does not surprise me even though i didn't know it that denzel washington's production company was behind this because i went to a church where it was really small there was no air conditioning but it was a stop on the underground railroad so there was like a historic aspect to the church it's been around since like 1856 i think but it's like so small the people who run it are all 70 plus and the choir is like phenomenal and they made most of their donations and money through christmas so this is a very accurate portrayal and then i thought it was cool that the georgia mass choir is like the main like it's like a professional

huge successful choir yeah i was gonna add another i think really authentic aspect of the church in the movie is like the struggling black church yep i feel like every church i've been to there's like a building fund there's like a fundraiser for something something's broken somebody's son needs the down payment for, you know, a new house or needs the deposit for school and the whole community is rallying around. So I thought that was very, very true to form when, I think it's Billy, they have to get the bail money for Billy and like how involved Henry was, how involved everybody was. That is, I mean, that's so authentic to just like the community feel of church. Even the moment where the youth center got closed and how like devastating that was just for the kids.

Because oftentimes the church is, that's the hangout spot. Not even during Sundays, like maybe during the week, Wednesdays, your mom's going to Bible study and then you're just like hanging out with everybody else, you know, downstairs at the youth center. So, yeah, I thought that was very, very authentic. Just those little tiny moments made it very much like, OK, this is we're in a for real black church. It's not just a movie. This feels like real. presents this notion of like just because it's christmas time doesn't mean that all of these like issues that affect a community go away the way that so many christmas movies are like wow it's the most magical time of year it's cookies and gingerbread men and sugar and cocoa and everything's amazing and everything's so beautiful which and that's because so many movies center

upper middle class white characters or families in like predominantly white suburbs or they'll be in like castles or an estate something like that and i just appreciate that this movie centers a Black family and Black community. And, you know, it has, it depicts a lot of things that affect this community. You know, the struggle of a lot of these characters being in a poor class, a character being racially profiled and arrested just days before Christmas. Like these things unfortunately do happen in the movies. Like, yeah, these things don't stop happening just because it's December 20th or something. Yeah, I never thought about that. That's a good point. And it's still like a, like it presents all these very real authentic issues

and also still is a very like joyful movie and has like a very hopeful message which i feel like is a difficult needle to kind of thread and that this movie does really well yeah that's a good point because i feel like sometimes yeah it could be a very thin line with like a movie that's trying to show like social issues or like the plight of you know black poverty or whatever like it could get you know dark and sad and the way that they're able to maintain like humor and magic and romance is actually really impressive it is yeah you need all those characters you need the guy who drives the church van you

need the like nice lady who's a lawyer who goes to church like you need all those people in order to insert all that humor and levity into these situations because they bring it in real life yeah you need loretta divine to be there you have to have loretta divine yes i wish that we had more loretta divine i mean mainly for for like the comic relief through line of like she thinks that denzel washington is trying to displace her when he's working for his job is i think much worse than anyone else's in the movie it sounds like he lives in hell kind of do you see how excited he was when he was eating pizza he's like oh my god i haven't had food in 40 years does god not let eat? They're torturing them up there. What? I thought it was supposed to be paradise.

I thought you could get whatever you want whenever you wanted however you wanted it to be made. What? God's feeding them astronaut food. They're like, add water. Astronaut food, yeah! Basically meatloaf. Add water! Anyways, I wish that we had more Loretta

Divide. We do learn a little bit about her character we know that she's a single mom but i i just felt like like we talk about on the show all the time there were opportunities and characters and obviously like unbelievable actors that like why wouldn't you take advantage of an opportunity to show loretta divine and whitney houston like acting together more because also this came out the year after Waiting to Exhale you're like oh my god that's right their chemistry is off the charts like write a more meaningful friendship for them because it's like if you cast Loretta Devine I mean obviously every second she's on screen is amazing it's again it's

very like two guys read this movie that Denzel Washington's Christmas gift to her is a boyfriend, but it was sweet. I liked it. Like, I just felt like there was so much more potential for that character, especially because we already know that she and Whitney Houston have like unbelievable chemistry

because of a huge movie that came out the year before. Yeah, that's a good point they very much underutilized her yeah i think another thing in the movie there was a lot of little subplots um not all necessary i love loretta love to see her but that was like a random subplot i agree like whitney really only talks with her mother or confides in her mother, I guess a little bit in Dudley. But, yeah, I don't know why they didn't give her, like, an out or have some other aside. A friendship, a female friendship. A friendship.

And how scandalous would it have been if it was her husband's assistant? That would have been fabulous. Right. Add another subplot because loretta divine has like information about him that she like that's yeah that's an important friendship yes exactly he knows his schedule that's how she could sneak around with the dates with dudley she could have gone on more dates like we could have really made this happen they started a google calendar for infidelity that makes me so happy uh yeah and i

think like i liked that i mean yeah i guess that julia and dudley are friends i get i mean they're friends but also they're friends they're more than friends they're winking at each other they're flirting i guess this is like my last thought on julia's character is that i think it's interesting that they give her and i'm pretty sure this detail was added when whitney houston was cast to justify her singing more of like oh she used to really like singing at this club but now she only sings at the church but she still misses singing at the club and really enjoyed it and lionel Richie wishes that she was there more. Just a cool detail.

I really liked that scene. But I feel like it introduces one of those subplots that she is looking for fulfillment outside the church and looking for validation of her singing outside the church. But she doesn't get that. And everyone close to her, especially, I mean, definitely her husband but also dudley and her mom kind of like reinforced to her like you should be happy with what you have like that dudley literally says that to her he's saying like everything you ever wanted you already

have and it's like well i'm pretty sure several scenes ago she told you that's not true like i found it like in the way that again like the the wife and mother box of like you're lucky to be in the place that you are and it would be selfish to want more or different it's important too that in that scene at the club she's singing a secular song she's not singing a song about god yeah that is really important to the film and that's yeah wow i never really even realized how like instrumental that one scene is to giving us a little tease into who she was before but that's true and i always my well my whole family is always like she's not singing about god in this she's singing about her and deadly this is scandalous and crazy but it's such a good song yeah I love that song I think that Henry kind of gets let off the hook a little too easily because like I understand that he is a very

important member of this community a lot of people look to him for guidance and for assistance and all this kind of stuff so he's very you know busy running around but he is like pretty actively neglecting his relationship with his partner and like we said like marguerite is always on julia's case about it she's never on henry's case to be like even though she doesn't like him like which is where I was like, why are you defending him so hard when you seem to actively dislike him? Right. Yeah. And she's like,

well, you know, my husband was the same way and that's just how it is. And it's like, it doesn't, you hate him too. Like you don't have to be nice to him. But yeah,

Marguerite's always being like, Julia, the responsibility is on you to like maintain this household and keep this family together. But like, it seems like she's doing all she can. Meanwhile, Henry, you know, he's doing his responsibilities around the community, but he also doesn't seem to be fully acknowledging that it's taking a toll on his marriage. And there's a scene where like, I think they're eating breakfast together. And he's like being snippy. And he says something like, if you were listening more closely, you would have heard an apology in there.

But now I have to go to a meeting. And it's like, well, you actually didn't apologize, which is why no one heard it. Yeah, what? And then he like gets so, and like, I get it. He's like very threatened by Dudley. Understandable. It's Denzel Washington. He's very handsome and he's also actively seducing his wife,

but he doesn't seem to take much accountability for their relationship. And I think by the end, he still doesn't fully recognize like, oh, I need to be a more present partner in this relationship. And good thing that I don't know who Dudley is anymore or else I would still probably be really jealous. Yeah, I think that's what's really missing from the movie is like a full circle moment for Henry acknowledging like a full accountability moment. That's why I kind of ended being like, I don't really have much hope for them. Like the church isn't sold, yay.

But like your marriage is still in the gutter. And I think also, yeah, Henry, he gets off very easily. He's not only neglectful of his wife, but even his son, his son's best friend got sent to foster care like no conversation between the two of them he keeps missing moments and appointments with his son and um like you don't see marguerite saying anything about that like it's really right very much focused on the marriage and you know poor little jeremiah is like sitting back witnessing all this and

getting the brunt of it in his own way by not having his dad present for sure and then has to remember all of it and no one else does he's the only one with the trauma oh my god yeah i agree i'm not convinced at the end of the movie that he's necessarily going to treat her better right now that everything's done and also that doesn't make the work he's doing in his community any less important any less impactful any less taxing on your energy but it feels like a very low bar to be like okay so he's not gonna sell her family's church to a land developer you're like that's a really low bar yeah that shouldn't have been on

the table yeah yes and that's how the church that was handed to you by your wife's family yeah that's true joe hamilton by the way speaking of this land developer guy i was like, Joe Hamilton, because black people can be blood sucking real estate sharks, too. I'm like, interesting casting. Also another iconic black actor. Oh my god. Yeah, for sure. That is interesting, the choice of making the real estate vulture guy a black guy. And he's from the community too right

he seems very familiar yeah yeah yeah i wonder how that is done in the again like we didn't watch the original or read the original but i wonder if that is like a one-to-one thing from the original don't know yeah the movie and i think the book focuses more on the bishop. Bishop Henry is trying to raise money to build a huge cathedral for his overcrowded parish. So it's actually the bishop's idea to be like, let's build a huge church rather than an outside real estate developer coming in and trying to bring the bishop onto the mega church yeah so that's a story change i don't even know if there is a real estate developer character in the original source material anyway again a very 90s choice like i always yeah like that was a main plot point in casper that was the main plot point in Casper. That was a main plot point in like so many. They're like, save the building.

The Hannah Montana movie. Save the building. Save the building. And it's like, I mean, in the case of this movie, in the case of all those movies, yeah, they had to save the building. Yeah. I mean, the stakes, they're high. I wanted to talk a little bit more about julia and marguerite's relation

actually i don't know i feel like we maybe covered it i i do want to add though like i love i love jennifer lewis she has played so many mothers so many black films i love her character she's terrible but also great yeah Yeah. She's always like, I don't like to get into other people's business. And all she does is get into other people's business. Everybody's business. All up in the business. Smoking her cigarette in the house.

As a child, walking around. Terrible. God bless. It's great. I also, I still am like, brutal that they cast her as Whitney's mom when she is I can't

say it enough a mere six years older ridiculous than Whitney she was born in 57 Whitney was born in 63 that does happen every once in a while I feel like that was a big thing people talk about with golden girls all the time too oh yeah

the mother daughter were unbelievably close in age and you're like oh you're kind of roasting this other actor for no reason but anyways yeah no jennifer lewis it's like i mean it's not like you would want anyone else playing this part yeah and she has just like strong black mom energy she does she has strong black mom energy and she could really be a villainess in a great way and she was a little bit of a villain in this film i think but in a very like realistic authentic very realistic scarily yeah just like all up in their business observing their marriage because she lives there

always wants to put her two cents in there um and then yeah cracking down on her daughter for what's going on your house like get it together i taught you better than this like right i wish she i mean she's very authentic so it is what it is i wish she had a little bit more of like a harder stance against henry right yeah and calling trying to hold him accountable more than just her daughter i wish even just like one or two more lines yeah about that would have been just add a little bit more balance yeah and have you know someone else on julia's team but i think they wanted to keep her character very traditional just like the

focus daughter your focus is on the household remember that that was what my focus was now i pass that on to you right right yeah i mean it's like i get most of the women we've talked about like there's certainly more that could have been done with her again we could have given her a friend in the church this is the community she's like been connected to for longer than anyone else in the movie but they sort of were like no we're just gonna sort of have her scold Whitney Houston in the kitchen every 20 minutes or so I liked her scene with Denzel that was fun oh and she's like walk me over to the neighbor's house stay away from my daughter yeah I'm like should they hook up like i'm open to what this looks like

i mean well okay when we first meet marguerite when jeremiah is like giving voice over and like introducing all the main characters he says something like and that's my grandma everyone says she needs a man whatever that means and it's like okay i mean oh god it was so unnecessary yeah another unnecessary dig like unnecessary dig but also a very true aside that people are in the church are looking at oh she needs a man she's still single uh-huh we haven't hooked up with anybody yet yeah oh she's single again what happened to the last one like that's also so true and then i want to list off a few because horny angel representation is important there's been a lot of horny angel erasure oh cinema. Are there other horny angels? I can't think of another horny angel.

No, I'm saying that it's been nothing but erasure until this movie. Horniness is beautiful and from heaven. Exactly right. It's why people exist. The scene where Dudley tells Julia to buy a negligee because he's like oh my god you would look so hot in this oh my god for your husband but it would be so hot and she's like i don't know i'm looking for a present from my son and he's like oh okay never mind never mind never mind

never mind the moment has passed laying it on thick it's yeah and then the scene toward the end where dudley's looking at julia and henry's wedding photo and then he uses his like angel powers to replace henry with his own image and then god gets pissed off and like thunder happens and he's like sorry maybe they'll reunite in heaven or purgatory or i don't want to go to that version of heaven i hope not yeah i hope he gets another assignment and somehow escapes i also wanted to shout out hans z Zimmer wrote the score for this movie. Yeah. Wild. Really? Yeah.

Oh, wow. Wow. I didn't know that. I mean, the music is amazing. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense.

Wow. And then I also, just to point out, like there are a handful of characters that make like fat phobic comments or jokes. Yeah. That just feels very of the era for like casual fat phobia to be just so normal in a movie of this time. When did fat phobia stop in films? Had it stopped in films? Never.

Never, right? Okay. It's still there. Cool. Okay. Yeah, it's still there. Cool. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Does anyone have anything else they want to talk about? I just thoroughly enjoyed watching this.

I have to just like think about, because this came out when? 1996. I was even just looking at everyone's career at this time. Denzel had just won the oscar for glory best supporting we had got to see him as malcolm x uh philadelphia like we know denzel now that you know 20 whatever 30 years later but he was kind of i don't say up and coming but he was still in the early stages of his career so to see just to have that context and then whitney too she was still in the early stages of his career. So to see, just to have that context. And then Whitney, too, she was just in The Bodyguard.

Courtney B. Vance, I think, had won a Tony already by now for Fences. Jennifer Luce is in a million movies by now. The cast is just really impressive. Like, it's just so super stacked, especially now in 2023, thinking about all these people's careers now um just how special of a movie it was to have this like ensemble black cast yeah i love that and even though i'm lukewarm on the reverend henry character courtney b vance like his speech at the courthouse and then his sermon especially at the very end of the movie i was like

do i believe in god now like he's making a believer out of me he's so good especially at the end where it's like a four minute speech where again the takeaway from that speech is that he's not going to have the church turned into a mall. And you're like, the fact that that's this powerful, in spite of you doing so little, is really impressive. It's a testament to him. Yeah, he's the one who convinces Joe Hamilton to not tear down the church, even though an angel had showed up the night before to be like, I'm going to send you to hell if you do this. But Joe Hamilton the night before to be like i'm gonna send you to hell

if you do this but joe hamilton's still like there to be like well this is the last little sermon before i rip this place down and then he's like wait a minute no that that the reverend giving his sermon it feels like that's what convinces him to change his mind yeah i think definitely as problematic as Henry's character is in being the neglectful husband, father, all this, I think his character is probably fully formed the best, I think, in terms of he really does a great job, or maybe the writing does a great job of showing him

as the black lead of the church and how much they really belong to the community and that that struggle of yeah he has a life he has kids but he also belongs to everybody else yeah and the seeing him kind of drowning in that i empathize with him as terrible as he is as a husband and so many other things you can see his exhaustion of like i just want to sit down and maybe yeah i just want to be a family man but instead i belong to everybody in the community and i think corny b van stills a great job at bringing that and the writing brings a great job of bringing that to life i wish obviously we could have saw more of that out of whitney's

character as the the wife of that person because that is a whole other lived experience being the first lady of a big church so that's what's disappointing particularly since it's called the preacher's wife you would hope that we could see more her story but i will give courtney b vance and his character that credit that felt very um i was able to empathize with him on that yeah well that was a question i had as far as because this movie again feels very authentic i was like oh this must just be like an original unadapted thing but to learn that it was adapted from source materials that were not written and created by black creators. And because this particular movie, Preacher's Wife, was written and directed by white filmmakers.

Is there anything that feels like inauthentic to these black characters, the black community, the black experience? Or does it feel like they pretty much nailed it because that's always a concern i have where it's like you know a black cast yeah but the top creative voices money yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's a great question i i think they nailed it honestly honestly. I was going to say, no, even the landlord's character, him, it's actually really important that he was from the hood and acts like that. That's actually like a really common thing that I think happens across many ethnicities, but definitely in the black community. Or once you get money, you're just willing to step on whoever because you can't go back.

You can't even imagine going back to the place that you came from so yeah i would say nothing's really missing which is remarkable i mean natasha you said it earlier too it's like i'm sure that denzel washington's production company being so like integral to this movie getting made yeah i mean i don't know and denzel washington like made good on that statement he made in 96 of like centering black characters and getting black creatives involved i was looking over just the roster of movies that he's produced or his production company has made over the years and it's like awesome yeah i would not have guessed this was written and directed by white people never yeah i would not have thought i was written and directed by white people. Never. Yeah, I would not.

I was surprised when I read that. I was like, oh, okay. And that was after the fact. So yeah, I think they definitely nailed it for sure. Okay, good to know. Also, annual shout out to how many classic Christmas songs and stories are written by Jewish people. It's like... That's wild.

Irving Berlin, White Christmas, The Christmas Song, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, Silver Bells, Winter Wonderland, I'll Be Home for Christmas, all written by Jewish composers. Yeah. Wow. Shout out. Yeah, that's cool. Wow, that's a really cool fact. Yeah, that's one of my favorite facts to revisit every Christmas. Cool.

But does this movie pass the Bechdel test? I think it does between Julia and Marguerite in a small handful of exchanges. They are usually talking about Henry or Dudley or Jeremiah. But I think there's an exchange where, in the context of this conversation is still like marguerite being like you need to get your household under control and julia doesn't want to hear it so she's like okay you can watch me leave and you can look at my behind you like i

gave you that behind so they're talking about whitney houston's butt and that does pass the bechdel test and that's an important exchange yeah it actually is for their relationship uh so it does pass it does i mean like this whole conversation speaks to i think there were plenty of opportunities for the women in this story to interact more and have more meaningful relationships so even though it does pass i would say like spiritually not a very strong pass we could have you know had way more women talking to each other for sure but what about the world's most important metric which we made up yes it's the nipple scale our scale of zero to five nipples where we examine the movie through an intersectional feminist lens i would give this man i wish i could go higher but i feel like i could only give it like two nipples because while it does feel like it really represents the black community and the black church authentically, I wished for so much more for the Julia character.

I wished for more from Loretta Devine's character. But again, especially Julia, where the movie's called The Preacher's Wife in theory it should be kind of her doing more stuff and being able to make more active choices and instead she again just ends up kind of being the object of affection of Dudley the angel Dudley the horny angel and wow sing that to the tune of Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. Dudley the Horny Angel wants to buy you lingerie. He will take you ice skating.

Okay, so the relationship between Julia and her husband Henry just feels like there's not nearly as much of an arc as I would have wanted because she's putting in all of the effort into their relationship and to like being a parent to their child and and Henry is kind of neglecting his family unit and paying way more attention to the community, which, of course, is important. But like he needs to find a balance. And I don't think he does by the end of the movie. And that makes me feel really sad for Julia. But the movie ends on a note of like, no, everything's fine now.

And I'm like, what is it? Okay. So and again, I just found Julia to be underdeveloped I wish she had just more of an exterior life and just we knew more about her and what her hopes and dreams were you know outside of her relationship but you know I love to watch Whitney Houston sing I love to watch Jennifer Lewis. Which is ultimately what this movie is all about. Exactly.

Basically. If you take out the singing scenes, the movie's 45 minutes long. But, yeah, I just, there was a lot to be desired for me for Julia's character. So I'll go with two nipples. And I will give one to the late great Whitney Houston and I'll give the other to well split the other between Jennifer Lewis and Loretta Devine nice I'm gonna go a little higher uh I'm gonna go I'm gonna go three I I think that for all the reasons we discussed this movie is not in spite of the title,

I feel like we see this pretty often, in spite of the title, is not actually a movie about a woman. It's kind of a movie about two men and how they feel about this woman. We are not really clued in to how Julia feels at length at any point. And I think that her takeaway at the end of the movie being like, you should be happy, you should be satisfied with what you have. Merry Christmas is like a little bit grim.

And just the fact that there's so many talented black women in this movie and we don't really get to see them be around each other, which again, like, especially at the lack of Loretta Devine and Whitney Houston the year after Waiting to Exhale it just boggles the mind but there's a lot that this movie has going for it that is like extremely like a step forward in the Christmas movie genre at all having a huge movie center an all-black cast i think especially in at this point in time was like really cool especially because denzel washington was so integral in

making it happen and um having his production company involved this movie is directed by a woman you don't see that very often still yep granted, Penny Marshall is obviously a white woman, but you still, you don't see women directing big budget movies frequently at now. And so I, and also I'm maybe sliding up the rating a little bit because Whitney Houston wasn't in many movies and I treasure each and every one of them. Even though Brandy Cinderella is still the best one. To me. Oh my God god yes damn i need to

rewatch i was just gonna say we watched that this weekend oh my god i feel like that has the energy of a holiday movie yeah definitely yeah yeah it's so good so i'm gonna give this three nipples i'm gonna give one to whitney I'll give one to Jennifer. No, no offense. I'm going to give one to Loretta divine. And then I'm going to give the last one to sissy Houston, Whitney's mom. Nice. Nice.

Okay. I can go. I, I'm going to go right in the middle. Give it two and a half. I think. Yeah. Similar to what you just said,

Jamie. It just feels like such a regression post Waiting to Exhale, which was such a powerful movie for women, for black women to see Whitney and Loretta in particular being so underutilized when we know their potential was probably the most disappointing element of the movie i will give a nipple to just a collective nipple for like the great cast of beautiful powerful black women again sadly underutilized but just so appreciate their presence just being iconic just being in this movie all together is is really special um i'd give one definitely to whitney for providing us this amazing album that we are all still bumping every christmas morning probably till the end of time um and then i'll give my half to oh i guess i gave one to when you're ready but i was gonna say for julia's character getting to have even just a tiny Denzel dalliance and take back a little bit of power. Even if it was just a smidge, I'm going to give it to her.

Just a light dalliance. They're touching in the ice skating scene. They're like holding on to each other. And that is nice. Yeah, it's nice. So shout out to her. Give her a little laugh for that. What about you, Justine?

I'm going to give three nipples. I agree with everything that you guys said, but I do think that there is a world where we could remake this film where the gospel choir goes to the McDonald's Gospel Fest and wins a million dollars. And that's how they save the building. The church. And we can get Hamilton out of here and we could just get the character out of here and we can just make whitney be the savior of the church for her father

and for her husband she could be like y'all can't live without me bam i'm so on board for that i think we should make another one the reverend's wife oh my god could you imagine yeah like kiki paul was the choir and the praise dance team oh my god the praise is a liturgical dance team please yes have to be so good so the fact that there's room for that i love it i'm gonna give one nipple to whitney i'm gonna give one to penny marshall because as she is a white woman woman working on a black film there haven't been many white directors working with black production companies so I applaud her for that and I'm sure she'd do a lot of research and it shows so thank you Penny and then I'm going to give one to Loretta

Devine for being the best yes simply the best Natasha and Justine, thank you so much for joining us for this wonderful discussion and come back anytime. Oh my gosh. Thanks for having us. Thank you for having us. This was so fun. Yeah. Where can people check out your podcast?

Tell us more about it. How do people follow you online, et cetera? Yeah. So we're Two Black Girls, One Rose. You can find us everywhere podcasts are found we primarily cover reality dating shows um we are currently covering the real housewives of potomac which is a good mess it's really a deep dive into female friendship i was to say it's very feminist of all the housewives franchises yeah so a little bit of dating and

relationships and marriage but uh we're definitely deep diving into just like sisterhood and themes of female friendship we've been covering the bachelor for the past six years we're currently wrapping up golden bachelor and bachelor in paradise which we do in our patreon patreon.com slash two black girls one rose for all all our video and special bonus content and yeah find us on all social media platforms two black girls one rose amazing have you either for the show or just in your personal lives watched the dating show naked attraction no i can't with the derobing dating show that or the siblings and the line needs to be drawn somewhere you know what i'm saying it's my new obsession i love making attraction oh my god i need to give

it a watch it's a uk based it's a uk yeah where people get naked and you see everything they're not blurring things out there's no what i couldn't you're seeing oh you're seeing, Oh, you're seeing dicks. Oh, you're seeing, Oh my God. Oh, you're saying, I was like, I'm not a prude, but it was like,

no, it's on HBO. So if, Oh, okay. Okay. There we go. It keeps getting recommended.

I'm a fan. It keeps getting recommended. It keeps getting recommended. Like you don't watch that one. I'm like, no, I've been actively avoiding it. Does everyone not die of exposure?

That's like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're indoors, so it's, I'm sure actively avoiding it. Does everyone not die of exposure? That's like... Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're indoors, so I'm sure it's warm. In any case, thank you again so much for being here as our guests. You can follow us on Instagram mostly these days at Bechtelcast. You can subscribe to our Patreon slash Matreon at patreon.com slash spectral cast you get two bonus episodes every month plus access to the entire back catalog all for five dollars a month

and you can get our merch over at tpublic.com slash the bechdel cast and with that let's let denzel washington men in black style wipe our brains and go about our christmas with our lives completely unchanged did he even do a good job we don't know or was he just horny we'll never know all right bye Bye. Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan,

with vocals by Catherine Voskrosensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions. Sniffy's Cruising Confessions will broaden minds and help you pursue your true goals. You can listen to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, sponsored by Gilead, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, every Thursday. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

To listen to new episodes one week early and 100% ad-free, subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology. Swaps of different meds. But by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane,

what we can do about it, and why we should care. Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.