WHOA That's Good Podcast - Let's Talk About Being Hurt by the Church | Sadie Robertson Huff & Matt Chandler

Episode Date: May 8, 2024

Pastor and author MattChandler joins Sadie and they dive right in to what it means to be made in the image of God. We hear the phrase a lot (especially at women's conferences, right?), but what does it mean for us as we live in the world every day? And what does it mean for the way we do life with others? Matt and Sadie discuss why God's wrath isn't rage but an incredible demonstration of LOVE. Plus, is community something you crave but have trouble with? You're not alone! Matt shares why failure to be vulnerable to other believers robs you of the opportunity to experience grace in a tangible way, so start investing in community right where you are! God made us and appointed us to be alive at this exact moment and THAT is exciting news. We can be a part of shining the Light of the Gospel right where we are, but it starts by saying "yes" to Jesus. Get your copy of Matt's book "The Overcomers" anywhere you get your books. This Episode of WHOA That's Good is Sponsored by: https://madrabbit.com/whoa25 — Use code WHOA25 for 25% off your order! https://give.cru.org/good or text GOOD to 71326 — Get a free copy of Sadie and Christian's new book "How to Put Love First" with your monthly gift! https://www.covenanteyes.com/sadie — Try Covenant Eyes FREE for 30 days with promo code WHOA. - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up friends? Happy Wednesday everybody. I hope you're having a great week, but per usual it's about to get so much better. I am so excited for this conversation. Literally so excited that this morning whenever my husband found out that I'm talking to, well, I'll announce him later. He was like, I'm gonna be there for this whole thing. I gotta get there that you know he's my hero.

He's his hero and his friend. We have Matt Chandler on the podcast and I'm so excited to be talking about his new book, The Overcomers. So Matt, welcome to the Whoa That's Good podcast. Oh man, I feel like I've made it. I don't know where I go after this. Do I retire?

Do I resign? You come back. Oh, okay. With Warren. Okay, well that would be probably better than what today will be then. No, it's gonna be so good, but literally you know Christian loves you so much

and he actually said last night, it was funny, he was looking at my calendar for today and he said, oh, you're talking to my hero in the morning. I got to be there. I'm like, you got to be there. And he's here. That's a lot of pressure. Well, you're his hero and his friend.

He adores you. We both adore you and Lauren. Lauren and I, for those listening, we just got to go to Guatemala together and it was absolutely amazing. We got to deliver the Bible together. I know y'all have heard me talking about that to the Achi people and Lauren was with me,

became a dear friend. I was just telling Matt, we bonded over some good classic, just gotta say it, poop stories. So you know she's a good one whenever you can laugh about poop stories and serve the Lord together. So we had a great time. And she's got an epic one.

It's not mine to tell, but maybe some future podcast she can tell her story. It is epic. Absolutely. We'll leave you all hanging with that. But Matt, just to dive in, I get to ask you the question I ask everyone who comes on the Woe That's Good podcast. And that is, what is the best piece of advice

that Matt Chandler has ever been given? Oh man, that is a huge question. I think the one that's probably made the most difference in my life was I am an achiever, a grinder, a hustler. And so for a lot of years, that looked like skill acquisition and sharpening of skills. And I had a man tell me probably, gosh, I think it's been about eight years ago, that really, if I would just orient my life around loving Jesus, like, like, just let the banner the whole purpose of my life be my heart fully alive in him, then the best version of myself would come to light. And so rather than

always trying to grow and giftedness or sharpen skills or need he wasn't he wasn't throwing shade at that he thinks that's needed and necessary. But but he pointed out and it was like one of those moments where I was like, gosh, how did I not? Why didn't I? I'm sure I knew that. How did I not think of it like that? He just pointed out my guess is that you're the best husband you ever are not when you've got some new principles that you're trying. But but then when your heart's fully alive in Jesus, and you're probably the best dad

and the best preacher and the best friend, not when you've got the skills to do that, but when your heart is animated by the presence of God in your life. And that, man, I've just laid that across my whole world the last eight years. And it really has made a ton of difference even as I continue to try to sharpen the ax

as the Proverbs would say. That is so great. I love that piece of vice so much because it ties back to what Jesus said, love the Lord your God, you know, with all your heart, soul, mind, love your neighbor as yourself. And I've been thinking about those words a lot lately

because, you know, I think I've been in this, I'm kind of the same way, achiever, you wanna do all these things, you wanna get better at your craft, you wanna do all of it. And I think sometimes you can wrap your identity around all those things or get too far in the weeds of it. And I've just been challenging myself recently,

like, okay, my ministry is to love God and is to love my neighbor as myself. And simplifying it truly to that, because if I'm doing that right, everything else is going to flow. And that's in your home, like you said, in your marriage, as a parent, as a leader, as a friend, and all things, you know, it gets better whenever you're loving Jesus first and foremost with the banner of your life. And so I love that. It's something I've been meditating on recently.

So that's cool that that is something that someone spoke into your life. You know, it's funny because I was just thinking about this, just simplifying things. You say something in your sermons quite often that we actually say in our house all the time, because we heard it from you. We tell honey all the time that God made the day and the day was made for you. And that's something we hear you say a lot. And I think one of my favorite things about listening to you preach, so if you don't know Matt Chandler, he is pastor of the Village Church,

and Christian and I don't live in Dallas, but we watch him online all the time. We have a little community group called Sermon Squad, and we very often watch Matt Chandler messages and gone through several of your series and stuff. And one of my favorite things about you is you preach with such knowledge and wisdom and your teaching is very thought provoking

and you can dive in and grow every single time. But you also, it's simple, you know, it's these sayings, it's these things that even though you unpack it very heavily and deeply and it challenges you, you walk away and you have these things like, God made the day the day was made for you. And it's something that you don't honestly expect

from someone like you. It's like, you're this like strong man and like preaching the truth. And then you say these things that are like, wow, that's so honestly encouraging and deeply true about who we are. And so to jump into the book, we'll come back and do a more appropriate entry

for just the whole idea of the overcomers. But you have these three things that we have to be solid in. And it is, I wrote them down so I wouldn't forget them, that we have to know that we are, sorry, I wrote down God made the day that there was a way for you and that you didn't say that here. But we have to know that we're made in the image of God.

We have to know that we're a child of God. And we have to know that we're uniquely made. Again, you wouldn't think that that would like necessarily come from you. I think people expect me to come and preach that message all the time. Like, you're made in the image of God. Like you're original, you're uniquely made.

But something, it's so much, honestly, even in some ways more powerful coming from you, who's a man who's so strong and knows who he is and has this amazing family and leads this church. And he's like, hey, you gotta get these three things right. And you gotta understand this. Why are those three things so important to you in your life and to teach others?

Well, I think for every Christian, these things begin to form and shape your relationship with the Lord and your understanding of yourself. I think we're perpetually in a world trying to deform us. And these three things actually form us in the direction that is progressive sanctification. It's how we continue to grow into the fullness of what God's made available to us in the person and work of Jesus Christ. And it helps me interact with the world in the way that's distinctively Christian. Because if that's true about me, well, that's true about all of us. And so that enables me to both receive grace and to extend it. That even those who maybe land in a theological tribe that I think is

dangerous or those who are wayward or those who are wild or, I mean, you just create whatever category you see in front of you. I know this, that they're made in the image of God. I know they are. And if they are Christians, then they're a child of God with all the privileges that come with that. And then lastly, and this is something I've been like really pressing at the village the last few years, is that I think there was an overcorrection in the church around like our self-esteem and our understanding of ourselves. But the Bible has so much to say about our individual uniqueness and that part of God's purpose and plan in using us is that uniqueness. He's certainly not calling me into the world of finance.

I don't even know how to, I need, I need help reading. You know, don't send me things in Excel, you know. I like words, I like ideas, I like thoughts. Those intuitively flow for me. It's how God wired me. This is Psalm 139, right? He knit me together in my mother's womb. That's not just a verse for women's ministry. It means all of us.

And we know, like, it's just saying that God's at work in the biology. You know, that text goes on to say that He created or wove together our unformed substance, our personality, our bent from the womb, and then our stature, our physical form. That this is the detail by which God's designed me. And so that's, he's involved in the genetic makeup of anyone listening to this from the womb. And Psalm 139 ends it with this idea that we were made for the day and the day

was made for us. That there are these days that God had for me, designed the day for me, for us, that there are these days that God had for me, designed the day for me, and then designed me for that day. And so, where I understand that all human beings are made in His image, where I understand that to be a Christian is to be a child of God with all the privileges that come with being a child of God, and then I understand that I really am one of one. There will never be anybody like me again. There's never been anyone like me before and that starts to form an understanding of God's purpose for my life and it actually I think creates boldness in us to live our faith I think in a more courageous way. Gosh, that is so good. I'm sitting here, I'm smiling. I'm like, if you've ever wondered what live original means,

just take the last six minutes of what Matt just said. That's what it means. That is so, so good. And I love that you said this verse is not something just for women's ministry. This is like who all of us are. And that's what I mean when I say like, it's so powerful coming from you

because so often you hear these things in women's ministry. And it almost, sometimes I think people don't realize that that's actually from the Bible. It's not just something we say, it's actually rooted in the truth of who we are. And that's what makes it so powerful. It's not just something I'm saying to encourage you or to lift you up or to help you feel better about yourself. It's to remind you of who you actually are, who you were created to be.

And men are desperate to hear this. I think men are so lost right now. And yeah, I think men are so desperate to hear this, so hungry for someone to affirm and call out. And, you know, especially think about the fatherlessness issue or, or even some of us like, I come from a, I mean, my achieving has a family of origin story. So, so I didn't grow up with the best father ever. And that does something in the heart of a man. And so I think men are desperate to hear this idea and it can't just go to the ladies. It's the truth of scripture laid across all of us. So Christian just got back from Israel and he came back with a new tattoo

and it's actually so cool. And let me tell you, he's gotta keep that tattoo looking fresh. So he is loving him so mad rabbit. If you haven't heard about it And let me tell you, he's gotta keep that tattoo looking fresh. So he is loving him. So Mad Rabbit, if you haven't heard about it, let me tell you about it. If you have a tattoo, you're gonna love this. Mad Rabbit is committed to reinventing tattoo aftercare.

It was founded by two friends who had a passion for ink, but wanted to create a simple, natural, and effective product to help them improve and preserve their tattoos. So it delivers right to your doorstep, which actually, Christian and I both got a tattoo in Copenhagen a few years ago. We had different tattoos, but same time it was so fun. And the tattoo shop that we went to actually had Mad Rabbit, and that's where we learned about it. Their most popular product is a tattoo balm,

which sells once every 90 seconds because it revitalizes, replenishes, and preserves the ink with ingredients that are both clean and natural. That's actually the thing that we got at that tattoo shop. It's effective for all skin types and for both new and old tattoos. So Christian's using it on his new tattoo, but I also can use it on mine as well. Mad Rabbit also offers products that you need for your tattoos from sunscreen to soothing gel and more. After using Mad Rabbit, people reported that the depth of their tattoos were preserved

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Just their logo's super cool. And Christian is a sucker for a good package or a good logo. And so he was excited to get some more products after he just got this one in Israel because it had a lot of ink in it. So we want to make sure you have the right products and Mad Rabbit is there to help out. So if you have a tattoo now is the time to try out Mad Rabbit. They've actually preserved over three million tattoos and they got an exclusive offer just for our Woe That's Good listeners. So if you go to madrabbit.com slash

woe 25 and use the promo code woe 25 you'll actually receive 25% off which is so awesome. So that's 25% off when you head to madrabbit.com slash woe 25 and use our promo code, WOE25. I know primarily we have a lot of girls listening, but if your husband or boyfriend or whoever's in your life is not listening to Matt Traylor, he's a great voice to speak into men's life through his books, through his podcasts, through his sermons. Like I said, Christian followed you for so long, listening to so many sermons before you ever met and has always taken such great advice.

So just shouting that out, girls, if you need to direct your man into a way, direct him this way. So anyways, had to say that. Also, before we dive into overcomers, I wanna ask you just because those who are listening, not everyone grew up in the church, not everyone has been a believer.

When we say image of God, can you just briefly touch on what that really means to be made in the image of God? Because I think we say this a lot on the podcast and I just kind of had this thought. Some people are listening and maybe like, what does that mean? You know?

Yeah, to be made in the image of God is to understand our uniqueness among all of creation and our value above everything in creation. And not so that we might do terrible things to creation, but that we might steward it. Like God has decided and designed to get His work done through people. It's one of the great scandals of the Bible that God's just decided. And Adam and Eve made in his image are actually given the task to take what God began in Eden and spread it across the rest of the world.

And so only human beings have a moral, spiritual reality. Like the lion never feels guilt or shame about eating and killing the antelope, even a baby antelope, just never feels any guilt or shame about eating and killing the antelope, even a baby antelope just never feels any guilt or shame about that. So human beings are the only thing in all of creation. And the real scandal of this is that we are like God somehow. We're not gods, but we are like him somehow in some ways. We're very much unlike him in others,

but we are his viceroys. We have been placed here to establish order and light, to push back darkness and establish order. And that's the command given to human beings. Not so, even a human being that has some mental incapacities is still more valuable than the most expensive race horse on earth. He is more worthy of dignity and honor and respect. And so this bears its weight on how we think about the elderly. It bears weight on the

race question. It bears weight on socioeconomics that human beings are made in the image of God and therefore are worthy of dignity, value and respect. It's great. It's so good. I'm so glad I asked that question because it was a great way to explain it. So we're gonna talk about Matt's new book, The Overcomers, and this is truly a gift to the church and to the world,

because Matt actually dives into revelation. So y'all, all of you people who have been like, avoiding that last chapter because it seems so overwhelming and so daunting, I get it, it is. You're reading it and you're not understanding everything. Thank you so much, Matt, for not only doing a sermon series on this,

but now writing a book on this. So why, I guess, we should start with the question of, why should you not be afraid to dive in to the book of Revelation? Oh my gosh, yeah. So it's probably really important for people to know that the church interpreted the book of Revelation the same way for close to 2,000 years. It's only been in the last 150 years, it's gotten a little janky and silly.

The book of Revelation was written to the church to encourage her, regardless of the environment she's in. It was written to put courage and steel in our spines. And so I honestly think one of the best thing that's happened for the enemy, not for the people of God, but for the enemy, is for this book to feel inaccessible and for it to be taken from believers. Because to understand the book for who it was written, which is us, it wasn't written to us, but it was written for us,

to understand Revelation rightly is to understand the victory of Jesus and his victory given to us, regardless of what it looks like on the surface. That's so good, I love that. So just for all of you listening who are like, okay, you know, you've always avoided Revelation. I love that you just remind us from the beginning. This is a book that talks about victory. This is not a book that's supposed to scare you. This is a book that's supposed to actually make a lot of hope rise up within you.

No question. And so I love that the whole theme of this is the overcomers and you're claiming that that really is who we are as a people. And so can you speak to just the name of the book, the overcomers and our identity in that? So I pulled the title, the overcomers from the letters to the churches in Revelation two and three. And so when Jesus is speaking to the churches through John in this apocalyptic vision, He's encouraging them where they're doing well, and He's warning them when they're in danger. And then to each one of the churches, He'll say, and to he who overcomes, I will give, and there's this reward attached to it.

And so the refrain of Revelation, the book is written to the overcomers, basically, to those who will cling to Jesus, come what may, those who will believe in this vision that we see in the fourth and fifth chapter of Jesus on his throne, with all of creation moving towards him, all glory and honor being given to him. And what's happening in that moment is not Jesus and the Spirit through John are not giving us a picture of the future. He's giving us a picture of ultimate reality right now. Wow. That Jesus isn't reigning and ruling after He returns.

He's ruling and reigning now. And that victory is available to the believer, and the proclamation of that victory is available to the unbeliever. And that's really what's going on through the whole book of Revelation. He uses apocalyptic language to get us to feel something because he's not just interested in us. So maybe this would help.

There's nothing written in the book of Revelation that hasn't already been written in the Bible. There's over 500 allusions to the Old Testament in Revelation. And so there's a lot of kind of reframing and recapitulation occurring in the book, which is just telling the same thing a new way. But these beasts and these locusts and these, they're not referencing something that's going to occur in the last decade before Jesus returns. Wow. Like they're pictures meant to make us feel something.

So Satan's not a dragon, but when you start reading in verse, you know, chapter 12, the description of Satan, it's meant to make you go, oh, he's like that. Yeah. It's not that he is a dragon. It's like he's like one. If you can imagine a dragon, he's like that. And so that's apocalyptic literature. It's trying to get you to feel something, get past your intellect and into your, like your guts, like into your heart, so you can feel it. And so that's

what's often happening in Revelation. But people instead have gone, let's take the newspaper and let's try to understand Revelation through the newspaper. And then that makes us, I mean, gosh, we're looking at 150 years of looking foolish. Sharing Jesus has always been so important to me. And if you are a believer, it should be important to you too. And that's why I'm so grateful that we are partnered with Crew. Crew has missionaries all over the world sharing the gospel every day, and of course it is working. Jesus is moving in people's lives, but for many people they're missing one really important thing,

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Yeah, wow. That's honestly so cool. I've never even heard anyone say it like that. And it's really cool because I love imagery. I'm such a visual learner. And so to understand that that is just to make you feel something and to compare it to something else, which is something we so often do in our language, when you're explaining something to somebody,

you're like, oh, it's like this or it's like that. Even my two-year-old does that. Like last night she was calling. So she's loving the movie Shrek right now and there's a dragon in Shrek. And she was calling her sister the dragon and I was donkey and Christian was Shrek. And we were pretending to be Shrek.

It might work. And it was so funny, I know, she's havens crawling over to her and she's like, oh no, it's a scary dragon, it's a scary dragon. And then she gets a little closer and she goes, oh, it's a sweet dragon. And it was just so cute. But I say that to say like, even my two year old uses words to describe something,

you know, and she's looking at Haven and she said, it's scary, it's sweet. And so that's just funny. It made me think of that. And I was actually thinking too about Passion Conference this year, when we, I don't know if you saw the Agnes Day moment when, oh my gosh, Christian is leading this moment.

And then it's like all of a sudden, and I'm sitting there and watching, it was the craziest thing I've ever seen, because there was no explanation for it and there was no... It felt like heaven entered the room for a moment, or it felt like we entered heaven. It was just still, there was peace, we weren't in an arena, it was so weird. But it was amazing because as I was watching, he's leading and then he gets down on his knees and then he falls on his face. And I just, I hadn't seen that from a worship leader probably ever, especially at a conference like that. And then all of a sudden the guy beside him who

wasn't looking at him, they were all in different directions, fell on his face. And then the guy who was on guitar in the back fell on his face. And then the guy who was on guitar in the back fell on his face. And then all of a sudden, but they weren't looking at each other. It wasn't like, oh, he's doing it, I'll do it. It was just like all of a sudden, this all in wonder and glory like entered the room as we were worshiping and saying,

holy, holy, holy, are you Lord God Almighty. And everyone's on their knees and everyone's having this moment worshiping God. And then Christian picks up the book of Revelation and he starts reading when the angels and describing this creature surrounding God day and night. Yeah, the elders throw down their crowns. The elders and holy, holy, holy, and it's what we're singing. And it's almost like when I'm

watching it, it's almost like Christian didn't know this part was about to come when he read and they fell like a dead man as they saw the glory of God. And Christian starts crying as he's explaining it. And I was just thinking he's in awe because as he's reading this, he's like finding himself in the same narrative and the same story. And I thought that was just extremely powerful to witness that. And we watch it almost every night just because the girls, when they go to sleep, we turn on worship and that it's just so powerful because I play that and Haven, she's 10 months old, she always raised her hand as soon as it comes on, just that she's

imitating what she's seeing. And I'm watching it. And that part sticks out to me every time when I see him read it. And he's so overwhelmed that he finds himself in the story, which is really what I think all of us hopefully can do as we read the words of scripture. We find ourselves experiencing the same thing that it's describing in the word as we encounter the glory of God. I love how when you talk about the churches, you talk about how this isn't not necessarily for the individual, it's more for like the church as a whole. How do you, I guess, should I say, it's kind of maybe a complicated question, but like, as someone coming to the church or reading the religion about the church, how do you participate like as a member of

like the big church and also like experience your salvation for yourself? Does that make sense? Because I think sometimes people are like, oh, I have like my salvation, I have my thing. And maybe they are not part of the church or they're like, I'm a part of the church, but yet they don't have their own thing.

So how is it like individual and as a part of the community? So very much we have individual personal relationships with Jesus. We have our own personal backstories. We're bringing certain things into our faith. It will be either sanctified out of us or redeemed and given new direction. But you've also been saved into a people. So, you have, and there's nowhere in scripture that's going to kind of address this individualism kind of mindset around what it means to be a Christian

that's not a rebuke. And so we are meant to do this life together. I experience, so 15 years ago, I had a seizure on Thanksgiving morning, found out that I had a golf ball-sized tumor in my right frontal lobe. After a resection, found out it was incurable malignant brain cancer and they gave me about two or three years to live. And man, the floor fell out. For all of my theological understanding, for all my relationship, I mean, at that point, I've been following the Lord for 18 years or so,

and it just felt like the floor fell out. Wow. And God made His grace available to me through the tangible presence of the saints. The reason I knew I wasn't alone, the reason I knew God saw me, is that the men and women that I've been doing life with just came and sat with me. They didn't come with like trite bumper sticker theology. They just came and sat with me. And I experienced both in my highs and my lows

for 30 years now, the grace of God, the forgiveness of God, the mercy of God, the delight of God through the saints. Wow. And so, from the beginning, God is creating a people, not just persons. Yeah. And the faith honestly doesn't work right all by ourselves. It is, we sharpen one another, we encourage one another, we rebuke one another, we build one another up. You need eyes on you that are your own. And so, the Lord protects

us by giving us a local family of faith that's not like where we go. So, I hate that language. I go to church here. No, no, no. Where do you belong? Because for you to get all that God has for you in Christ, there has to be a level of belonging with other believers because so much of His work in your life and so much of how He's going to use you is in community with other people. And so, I don't want to… I think I very much have a personal relationship with Jesus. I have, I have argued with him more, wrestled with him more, pled with him more, received from him more. I mean, I could keep going. It's a, it's my longest relationship at this point in my life, sans my parents and family. And, and man, he, he very much has moved most profoundly through others who could see me in both my

strengths and weaknesses and encourage me and when needed rebuke me. And I think we avoid that, one, because community can be difficult. We're kind of a two inch deep, 10 mile wide moment in history. And it's scary to be fully known because what if somebody fully knows me and then rejects me? And then this, I mean, the number of people I know that are convinced that God doesn't love them, I mean, I'm talking about Christians that they're not beloved by God. They're not rejoiced in by God, that they're not beloved by God. They're not rejoiced in by God, that they're not welcomed in God's presence.

To the person, it feels like, so this is 22 years at the same church, to the person, there's almost always been a failure to be vulnerable with other believers so that they could experience that grace in a tangible way. And this is why I've often said to be 99% known is to be unknown. And you hold back that 1% and you'll have all, the enemy will have all he needs to keep you from understanding the depth and width of the love of God for you.

Because you'll convince yourself, of course, everybody likes me because they don't know this 1%. God knows this 1%. And so on the surface, you'll look like a normal Christian but you will not be experiencing the intimacy that's born of vulnerability, both to man and to God. It is so, so important that we set boundaries when it comes to our phones, our screens, our social media, all the things.

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that message about the 1% and that 1% message and that 1% of me sharing with a friend, I think is really what brought me into the fullness of freedom that I walk in and experience today. Yeah, praise God for that. No, truly. I remember, and I remember I did not act on it right away. I'm like, okay, that's a lot. But you've been hiding that 1% since you were little. Yeah. It's hard.

It's scary because there, and I think probably everyone listening to this podcast, you're sitting here and you know probably immediately what that one person is. It's the thing that looms in the back of your mind that you're like, okay, that can never be known by anyone because then people would see me differently or maybe whatever it is, whatever the lie you're believing,

whatever the fear it is. And honestly thought about that for a really, really long time. And then one day I was sitting at a different church service where someone was not preaching that message, but something along the lines of confession. And I'm sitting by one of my good, good friends. And I just looked at her and was like, friend, I'm about to be really open with you about the 1%. And I did. And you know what? It was just like amazing because she's someone

that loves the Lord and loves me. And I mean, that verse, like there's therefore no condemnation for those who are found in Christ Jesus, like did not make me feel an ounce of guilt or shame or anything. And it was amazing that I didn't feel that when I let that go, when I shared that,

I found I was met with grace and love from God and from her and through her and it was really powerful. And so, I just want to kind of give you that encouragement for those listening, like, don't sit here and hear him say that and think on your 1% and dwell on it and feel the guilt and the shame of it and the hidden aspect of it, like maybe today is the day to one, pray and give it to the Lord, confess it to the Lord. And two, like think of someone that you know you can trust who loves God and loves you and is for you and is going to hear it and be that person who you can confess to that's not going to bring more shame into the situation, but love and grace because that really is like, I think, a door to freedom

is getting that out there. And I think it just allows you to be full of yourself in each room you walk in and know that you're loved and you're loved by someone who knows 100% of the story and God definitely does, but knowing that someone else does too is very, very powerful. And so I had to say that, cause that's something that I personally experienced through that message that you preach. And you know, I love that we

talked about that because I think that so many people do fear communities, so many people do fear the church and maybe that's for valid reason as far as you've been hurt by the church, you've been wounded in some way. And I've certainly experienced church hurt. There's certainly, it's hard sometimes to love the church when you feel hurt by the church. But I love in the book, you have a quote about, do not let the enemy deceive you into thinking that the church is the enemy.

And I think a lot of people have believed that lie that the church is the enemy. And they're still trying to like be in relationship with God, live this like Christian life, but like not have anything to do with the church. And I think that, you know, you have to let forgiveness come into the picture for whatever hurt you, someone in the church or some story of the church, but not the church of God or God himself. And so I'm just glad we talked about that because I do feel like that's something that a lot of people do fear to walk in. I want to talk about this because you talk about the trumpets and as I was reading about the trumpets, sometimes you're just like,

oh man, this is intimidating. And then you're like, this is why you're scared of the book of Revelation because you're hearing these things that sound really scary. But you talk about, because you kind of can get lost in some of this and be like, this sounds intense that sound really scary. But you talk about, because you kind of can get lost in some of this and be like, this sounds intense, it sounds scary. One of your messages that I heard that was so impactful for me was the idea that because God is love, there has to be wrath.

And I love that message because it really opened my eyes to see like, okay, yes, like there is gonna be this side of wrath because that is justice, but it's out of God's love. Can you unpack that a little bit? And I know Matt, listen, I'm throwing like the hardest things at you. I'm like, I got Matt Taylor on the podcast. Wow, we're here.

Let me throw the image of God. Let me throw the church hurt. Let me throw the thing. So I'm sorry, I'm really testing your overcoming skills right now by making you be an overcomer this whole podcast. But can you talk just a little bit about that topic? Yeah. So let me let me frame the trumpets rightly. So what's funny about the Book of Revelation is there are these three

separate moments that it just looks and feels like the book's over. And so you get you get the seven seals, and then the seventh seal breaks, and there's silence in heaven, and then it's all believers across time and space, worshiping in front of King Jesus, and it looks over. And then from the seven seals, you know, it moves to the seven bowls or seven trumpets. And then from there, lastly, the seven bowls of God's wrath. And so, this is what I meant earlier when I used the word recapitulation. And so, throughout church history, the church has understood these three sevens this way, that the seven seals are how the church is going to experience the space between Christ's ascension and His second return, His second coming. And then the bowls or the trumpets are how the lost world is going to experience that space. And then the seven trumpets are the view of Christ himself

looking down at creation as all this plays out. Now, in both the bowls and the trumpets, you're going to repeatedly see, I think, some of those heartbreaking texts in the Bible, not just because of the graphic violence that the Bible is trying to paint of what happens to those who choose to worship the dragon and the beasts as opposed to putting their faith in Jesus. Despite the brokenness of the world and despite the pain of the world, they refuse to repent and turn to this picture of Jesus on the throne that we get in the first part of the book. That chapters four and five is the apex of the book. It's Christ enthroned with all glory and honor and grace and mercy. I mean, with everything that's going on around that throne, there's a

rainbow behind the throne. Well, what's the rainbow? It's the promise that God's wrath has been quenched. But people decide not to turn to Him, but continue to follow their own ways and live their own life the way they want to. And Revelation paints the picture that when we say no to Jesus, we're saying yes to someone else. And we're saying yes to the enemies of God. And whenever we say yes to the enemies of God, we're causing all kinds of damage to His creation, to us personally, and to almost everyone around us.

And so this is where we get into love and wrath. So the day that Audrey was born, Audrey's my oldest daughter. I got saved right before my 18th birthday. I was a bit of a scoundrel back then. I loved to throw hands. And just my personality, unsanctified, unsaved. And so used to fight a lot. And then, man, got saved and buried all that stuff deep.

And when they let me hold Audrey the first time, well, the first time I felt it is, she was born and it looked like the nurse was being way more rough than she needed to be with my daughter. I mean, she's like scrubbing her and jamming stuff into her face, suctioning her. I felt like frustration would be the nice way to put it, rise up in my heart. Why is she being so rough to my little girl? Then when I held her for the first time, I knew I was capable of serious

and significant violence again. And that if anyone ever tried to hurt her or anyone ever tried to harm her, I would be capable of significant and serious violence. The reason I'm capable of significant and serious violence is not because I hate Audrey or hate other people. It's that my love for Audrey was something I had never experienced before. You don't love your spouse like you love your kids. Lauren's never been helpless in my hands. In fact, she might say the opposite, that I have been helpless in her hands. But to be given this little baby that can't do anything for herself.

I mean, my heart leapt, I just sat there and wept. But I also knew now, if anyone ever tries to harm this child, they're gonna have to do that through me. And because my love increased, my capacity for wrath increased. Wow. But so the less I love, the more indifferent I am, right? Like if I don't love Audrey, I'm just completely indifferent to what she does, what happens to her what and

this is like some people listening today, this is the trauma you're still trying to navigate because you grew up with a parent or parents, they were indifferent towards you. But love, so it's not like there's love and then there's wrath. They're actually the same coin, different sides. It's great. And so because God is love, He has wrath. And one of my favorite things about the book of Revelation is we see wrath once and for all ends because God is not wrath, He is love. But His holiness, His holiness burns and destroys everything in front of it that's not holy.

And so, there is no, to say that God doesn't have wrath is to say He's unconcerned or doesn't care. So you can't tease it out the way we're trying to tease it out in 2024, where if God's got wrath, He's mean and evil. No, no, no. He is love. And so, He has a really high capacity for wrath. But that wrath is always just, it's not rage. He's never off the handle. He's never, it is a priestly, holy, refining wrath, not like what we might think of as rage. He doesn't work that way. He is love.

And this is what the Bible says on repeat, both about his love and his wrath, how they work together. And so the judgment of God is in this world because according to the gospel of John, because men have seen the light and choose and love darkness. And so what does that do? Like, think of any kind of besetting awful nonsense in our world today. That's men and women loving darkness rather than light. And so everything from sex trafficking to you name it, has its roots in turning your back on the light and life of Jesus and choosing for yourself

to put your trust in other powers and principalities. And the sheer damage, and think about this, like as a, so later this afternoon, I'm gonna do the funeral for a 53 year old man who had a stroke at his son's baseball game whose daughter gets married next month. Absolutely awful. Like it's a terrible thing. So we've been sitting with the family. We're going to go celebrate Will's life later this afternoon. That's like, that's one instant of millions of heartbreaking instances all over the world. Now, in Will's case, that's not tied to sinfulness or wickedness or lust or compulsion. It was just the brokenness of the world, the sinfulness of the body.

And think about how God's just constantly drinking in every child that's ever abused, every woman that's ever traumatized, everyone, all the poor taken advantage of, all the slaves in the earth, all the... I mean, think about, God sees that all the time, always. And it makes you, if you frame it that way, you start getting surprised that He hadn't destroyed all of us already. Even where I might be complicit in participating that without even knowing it. Like, I don't know who made this shirt.

I don't know the background on, well, I can read on where the battery from my phone came from. So in a way, I'm even complicit in this brokenness. Yeah. And God drinks all that in. And He is right and just to be wrathful about that because of his deep and unmovable love towards his creation. Wow. Y'all, I love summertime.

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it in such a way that everyone who's listening to this is leaning in and I think learning something maybe for the first time. And we prayed at the beginning of this podcast, I actually remember saying these words that this podcast and this conversation would lead people closer into the love of God and make them feel more loved by Him. And what you just unpacked, I hope as you're listening and as you hear this, is that God really is love. And if you've tried to understand that, but it's been hard because of the bad things you see in the world, that was just the most beautiful, unpacked answer on how there can

be such bad things, but God can still be fully loving. That was so good. I'm so glad that we touched on that. I wanna ask you last thing, because we're looking at this world right now and everything does feel overwhelming and dark. And you said like, we're trying to put it into a 2024 context and it's all crazy and all the things. I think like for me, something that gives me peace whenever I feel overwhelmed by the

darkness of the world is asking my dad, how do you feel? You know, it's like when you feel like your dad is good, then you feel good. You know, you're like, hey, if you're good, then okay, good. Well, last night we do like a Monday Bible study with like our community and my dad was leading last night and he was just preaching on evangelism and how we have to get the gospel out into the world. And he's like, look, it's dark out there. Like it's really dark, it's really bad. And you sit there and you hear your dad say that and you're like, okay, it's really bad.

If he says really bad, it's really bad. But then he's like, but like you're called to be the light. You're the plan, you're plan A. Like, and he's just encouraging us. And I'm like, man, I'm so glad to have a dad who is like speaking this over me. Like I'm hearing my dad like acknowledge to the darkness of the world, but then like say,

and here's how we respond, here's what we do. Most people listening to this podcast might not have that dad or that leadership or even the pastor's voice in their life speaking into what's happening in the world and as a believer, what we are to do. So I wanna ask you, as you look around the world right now with this in mind, the overcoming spirit

and the revelation and how it ends, how do you feel, you know, April, 2024 about where we're at and what you're doing about it? Yeah, so great question. Cause that, this is the book. There is no doubt that we're in an awkward moment of history, but it's been worse before. I mean, it's not like we're the first ones to navigate

kind of a new little space. I will say the tech component, I feel like we're in probably what they felt during the industrial revolution, where the world was changing so fast. And if you remember, like Upton Sinclair has to write the jungle, because we've got like five-year-old kids working in factories 12 hours a day, and you lose a whole generation when these kind of tectonic shifts occur.

We're right in the middle of one. Who knows? I mean, you're starting to see in England, I think I saw the New Yorker magazine just said, can we possibly get smartphones out of the hands of children? I mean, that's a secular magazine going, we can see the damage it's doing. So, but when we think politically, when we think of, I mean, just all the mess that we're in right now, here's where I get excited. Yeah. And this is where the light of the gospel will shine most brightly. And so I'm writing the book to try to remind you,

like, hey, you are uniquely wired by God. You've been uniquely placed by God and you've been uniquely gifted by God for this moment. Like I've been walking with some younger pastors, they're Gen Z guys. And man, what's intuitive to them is not intuitive to me. I'm a Gen Xer. There's so much I don't understand about the world. They're not even thinking about

it. They're just doing it. And so the reason I wanted to write the overcomers is because the Christian faith doesn't belong to blue check celebrity Christians. It belongs to regular men and women living in a specific street, going to a specific job, playing their specific hobbies, and carrying with them the light of the gospel. And so I just, there's a dentist in our congregation and there was a ministry born out of our church that works with women that have been trafficked. And there's like a 1.0 and then there's a 2.0. And all our, what we're trying to do is deal with the trauma,

get them some significant job training, then help them get established. Well, we had a woman that came to Christ out of some of the most horrific stuff imaginable. I mean, like, however dark you're thinking worse, since she was a little, little, little girl. And she became a little, little, little girl. And she became a Christian, but man, she was struggling with a lot of different addictions

and patterns of behavior, and she stumbled and fell into some stuff that sent CPS to her house to take her kids from her. Well, I've got this dentist in the congregation. He's not a deacon, he's not an elder. I think he maybe led a small group at one point, but he's just a guy that goes to our church and loves Jesus. Well, him and his wife served in that ministry and they adopted her kids until she gets through the process and then they're going to give her kids back to her. Like that, he's not

theologically trained. Like I said, he's not aologically trained. He's not, like I said, he's not a deacon or he's not even in any kind of real leadership. But what's he doing? With what he's been given, he's living out the gospel in a way that's going to more than likely change a bloodline for generations to come. And this is what all of us can do if we'll stop thinking that the way the gospel moves forward is through blue check celebrity charismatic teaching. It's never moved forward like that. God gives a handful of men and women that role in each generation,

but the gospel moves when you're, if you're listening to this right now, like Psalm 139 says you're uniquely wired, Acts 17 says you're uniquely placed, 1 Corinthians says you're uniquely wired. Acts 17 says you're uniquely placed. 1 Corinthians says you're uniquely gifted. Like you can push back darkness where you are. Like you can be the light. You can, like this, that's what burnt,

like I'm not glad that it's dark, but you're watching secularism fail in this epic way. You're seeing a pandemic of anxiety and loneliness and disconnectedness. Well, we have the answers to those things. We have belonging, we have purpose, we have healing, we have wholeness and not at some surface level. We have the soul transforming generational shaping power

of the Holy Spirit that dwells inside of us. And this is really what the book's about. I'm just using Revelation to jump off into it. But man, this burns in my heart. Like this is our moment. Nobody's coming to bail us out of this. Like C.S. Lewis isn't coming, he's been. G.K. Chesterton, he's not coming, he's already been.

Gosh, even some of the giants that preceded where I'm sitting right now, like Tim Keller, those guys are beginning to enter their twilight. So this is our moment. And I wrote over Comers because I want us to seize it. There's so much brokenness everywhere. And so we've got to understand we're made in the image of God, we're children of God, and that we've got this role to play.

And if we can do that, man, I think we might see revival in our day, but we've got to get up off the couch, we've got to stop navel gazing, we've got to gaze upon Christ enthroned, and then step into what he's calling us to do. He will empower what he puts in our heart to do. And so I'm just trying to tell everybody,

hey, this is our moment, let's run. Come on. I'm like, I wish I was out of conference right now so it would be appropriate to stand up and clap. But truly, everything you just said is so right on exactly what our heart here in Monroe, Louisiana, what we're talking about, what we're feeling, what we're encouraging the people around us,

what we're being encouraged by. Like I said, my dad said so many of those things last night to just a group of 40 people and was like, hey, no one's coming to do this for us. Like we're doing it. And it was so encouraging. And now I'm hearing that again. And I'm like, you and your space,

wherever you are listening to this, one, I hope you receive that, and two, I hope that you preach that as well to those around you, encourage your friends. Maybe you're in college and you're in a sorority, get your friends around and preach this to them, share this with them, tell them this. Maybe you're at home with your kids,

you're a stay at home mom with your family, tell it to your family, do it as a family. You truly are the light of the world. And so you really have to live like that, and especially in these moments. That's the answer to pushing back the darkness. I'm so excited for people to read this book. If you've listened to this podcast and you're encouraged, don't let this fall on bad soil. Let this get deep into your life. Truly go back and listen to the podcast again if you need to let it anchor you. Go read the book, of course,

because there's so much more that he impacts in this book. You know, Matt, it's funny because as I was preparing for this, I'm like, this is so hard because of Matt Chandler coming on the podcast who even if he didn't just write a book on Revelation, I'd have so many deep questions for him. And now I got to talk about Revelation. So Matt, thank you for just being willing to talk about the hard things that people avoid. And thank you for unpacking it in such a way that people can understand and really

encouraging people along the way. So we appreciate you and your ministry and your life and super grateful that you are on the Will That's Good podcast. Oh come on, always good to hang with you Sadie.