You're Dead to Me - The Rise of the Tudors

Episode Date: April 28, 2023

Greg Jenner is joined by Dr Adam Chapman and comedian Kiri Pritchard-McLean to learn about the rise of the Tudor dynasty.The Tudors are probably the most famous ruling dynasty in British and English history. But where and when did the Tudor family actually originate? The answer lies in 13th-century Anglesey with a collection of modest landowners, who wouldn’t have called themselves Tudor at all. So how did this titanic royal dynasty spring from these minor Welsh beginnings?Correction: In this episode, we said that Margaret Beaufort was descended from Edward III and his mistress. She was actually a descendant of John of Gaunt, Edward’s son, and his mistress, Katherine Swynford. Although illegitimate at birth, their children were later legitimised, although barred from the throne.Research by Caitlín Rankin-McCabe Written by Emma Nagouse, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Caitlín Rankin-McCabe and Greg Jenner Produced by Emma Nagouse and Greg Jenner Assistant Producer: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow Project Management: Isla Matthews Audio Producer: Steve HankeyYou’re Dead To Me is a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4.

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Know your risks. Visit heartandstroke.ca. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And for six series, we have silently upheld an editorial rule that you did not know about. No Tudors, no World War II. Well, today we are bending our rule. We are heading to medieval Wales to explore the Tudors before they were famous. And to help me unravel their rise, I am joined by two very special guests. In History Corner, he's a lecturer in medieval history at the Institute of Historical Research of the University of London,

where he specialises in late medieval history of Wales and England. He's the author of many publications, including his book Welsh Soldiers in the Later Middle Ages from 1282 to 1422. Very specific. It's Dr Adam Chapman. Welcome, Adam. Hi, Greg. Lovely to have you here.

And in Comedy Corner, she's an award-winning comedian, writer, podcaster and broadcaster. You may have seen her on the telly on things like Have I Got News For You, Live at the Apollo, Would I Lie To You and Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Best of all, of course, you'll remember her from our episode on medieval animals. It's Welsh wonder woman, Kiri Pritchard-McLean. Welcome back, Kiri. Oh, I'm so glad to be back.

And I'm so excited to be talking about this because I am. I mean, it's so funny that you put those rules in for your podcast. And I was really disappointed because as a historical basic bitch, I'm very interested in both those subjects. Well, you are. I'm not going to call you basic at all. You are representative of most people. Everyone loves these stories. But we decided when we started the show, we wouldn't do those because everyone else does them so well. So we're trying to do different stuff. But today we are slightly bending our rules. And we know from last time when you were on the show that you really enjoyed history at school. You even put history into your recent stand-up show. So I'm guessing we have two experts on the podcast today. Should we just go straight to the quiz? No need for the chat?

Yeah, I'd bike myself yeah all right but what do you know about the Tudors before they become the kind of glamorous messy dynasty that everyone is so obsessed with yeah I think they're North Walian because I mean it's quite Welsh to claim people as your own if you've passed through Wales a service station at one point we will go you know they're welsh well famously to my area i'm from the honest more on the island at the top of wales which is where dorm french grew up and everyone's like dorm french is from anglese you know dorm french is from anglese even though every time she's spoken about it she talks about how much she hated her time here as a child very briefly but it's good enough for us so yes i think they're

northwellian but that's all enough for us so yes i think they're northwellian but that's all i know really so what do you know we'll start as ever with the so what do you know this is where i have a go at guessing what our lovely listener will know about today's subject and given the deluge of requests we get from listeners for more tududor history, and of course the pervasiveness of the Tudors on the school curriculum and in popular culture, I'm going to bet my house that our listeners know who the Tudors are. Even those of you listening overseas, they are just everywhere. Whether it's Hilary Mantel's Wolf Hall series

of novels and the TV adaptation, the bazillion TV dramas and movies like the Tudors and whatnot, the endless TV documentaries, the sheer number of stately homes you can visit, all of which claim to have been visited by Elizabeth I. The Tudors are the Ed Sheeran of historical dynasties. They are famous, they are ginger, and you cannot escape them. They will find you. And of course, they have a brilliant foundation story. Henry Tudor comes out of nowhere, wins a shock victory at the Battle of Bosworth, kills King Richard III, ends the Wars of the Roses, gives Shakespeare his biggest hit, or one of his biggest hits, and everyone goes, hooray, the Tudors are here. But does that story really start here? Of course it doesn't. So how did an obscure Welsh

family end up as Britain's most famous monarchs, who we deliberately ignore on this podcast? Let's find out. Right. Henry Tudor, he wins his battle in 1485. That's the big year that school kids are meant to learn, certainly in England. But we're not doing 1485 really as our start point. Our start point is the 1200s, which is miles away from 1485. So is this when we first meet the Tudors? No. It's a very simple reason. Tudor, we adopt as a surname for a dynasty, and that's only coined after all dead. This is all to do with James I, James VI of Scotland and England, who decides that what he needs to do is to big up his own ancestry and to impose a 17th century idea of what that should look like because he's descended from one of Henry Tudor, Henry VII's daughters. So the surname does not exist, it's invented later on

because the Welsh don't have surnames in the period. House of Tudor is something which is invented after its goal. So Welsh naming, as I said, is patronymic. You're named after your father. I mean, Ciri knows this because her surname, Prard app richard so that's probably developed sometime in the 16th century or later because richard is not a name you find in medieval wales at all really or even richette which is the welsh form and you didn't want to be called by that sort of that welsh name because it means nothing it's strange to english ears and henry tudor was only called henry tudor by his opponents when they wanted to belittle him. They wanted to say this man is of no consequence, this man is of

no importance. It's not a name he ever used himself. Henry Tudor is not Henry Tudor in his lifetime. Oh, I mean, immediately we've derailed the whole branding of the episode. Sorry. Okay, so the people we're discussing today are not actually Tudors and even when they

were Tudors, they didn't want to be called Tudors. Good start. Right, all right. And Kiri has suggested North Walian as our origin point for these Tudors, but not Tudors. Is Kiri on the money? He comes from the region sort of east of the Reo Conwy, which is known in the 13th century as the Four Cantreffs. They're modest landowners, you know, they have some local importance. But then, you know, the powerful Welsh prince, Llywelyn the Great, Llywelyn the Valwar, brought the region under his control. You know, he's expanding Gwynedd. Gwynedd is the top left-hand corner of Wales. And he brought the region into control, and he needs someone to run it. So he gets in with Llywelyn, but he's in the service of Llywelyn the Great from 1215 until his death in 1240. And he was the chief minister. He was the disdain

or steward. He represented Llywelyn in negotiations with English kings, plural, and had at least six sons, and they all followed him into the service. It becomes a hereditary post. So Ciri was spot on with the geography. North Wales, Anglesey kind of worlds, Snowdonia, and their family are working for Llywelyn the Great. Then in the late 1200s, we get my ancestors, I suppose, the English show up. Hello! Never far away, are you? Yeah, no, sorry. We've come for your land. Terribly sorry. Could we have it, please? Have you ever heard of Edward Longshanks, Kiri? I'm guessing perhaps you have.

Yes, I have. But I have just heard. I don't know that much information. Oh, really? Yeah. I feel like maybe not a good guy. No, he's not Edward the Lovely. No. I mean, he's got various nicknames, but Longshanks means he's Longshanks Longlegs. But he's kind of the baddie. He's the villain, right? I mean, certainly for the Welsh in the late 1200s, he's the conqueror. He's coming in to crush the Welsh and he famously builds huge castles to defend the land that he has taken. Harlech and Conwy

and Beaumaris and sort of these glorious buildings that you can go and visit. So we've had, Adam, these not quite Tudors, I'm calling them proto-Tudors. We've had them working for the prince of, you know, Llywelyn the Great and his descendants, the princes of Ugyneth. And then suddenly in comes an English king who's now ruling everything. So do they switch sides? Do they join the resistance and fight back? I mean, they're utter cynics. So they switch sides? Do they join the resistance and fight back? I mean, they're right to cynics. So they switch sides. They become established on Anglesey by this point. And one of the reasons that Clodagh Griffith, the last Prince of Gwynedd, the last Prince of Wales, loses is because his elites switch sides. They decide, well, actually, it's going to be more trouble than it's worth sticking with. And we could lose everything. We don't want to do that.

So pure naked self-interest. And is the tutor story it's all about what they can get for themselves got to say they did all right in the end but uh sure so they betrayed the welsh princes no doubt about it they absolutely did they back up with the first they get rewarded for it obviously up with the first being up with the first says i'm going to plant my own mates in all the positions of power, all the positions of authority. The sheriffs, the justiciars, even quite low-level officials are English. But of course, they don't want to go there. So who are their deputies?

Their deputies are these proto-tudors and their mates, their relatives, their hangers-on. They are the people doing the hard work. They're big winners. Are they sort of that irritating level of middle management that you have to work with, you know, when you have a Saturday job, and they're the people who are absolutely drunk on the power that they get to do the rota one week? Is that what the Tudors are? Absolutely.

Okay. I have to say, having a sort of passing relationship with our local council on Anglesey, not much has changed. I feel like their descendants are still doing okay around here. Okay, so the early proto-not-quite-Tudors have turned against their Welsh forefathers and they've jumped ship and gone, you know what, actually the cushy life is working for the English king. So, Kiri, I'm very sorry if we've angered you already with our anti-patriotic dragging you into the murky waters of the 13th century.

Do you know what, though? So my surname is Pritchard, which is the Welsh side, and the Maclean, which is my mother's side. And when I went to the Maclean Castle on the Isle of Mull, the whole history of the Macleans is constantly swapping sides to just act in their own interest. is constantly swapping sides to just act in their own interest. So I think between the Welsh side and the Scottish side, I'm the most disloyal opportunistic. Genetically, it's all there for me. So expect to see another podcast exclusively about the Tudors and World War II. Okay, so the not-yet-Tudors are keeping power between them for several generations.

And we get a particular pair of brothers, Huel Abguaronri and Tudor Abguaronri. Adam, immediately, the name Tudor shows up there. I'm very happy. But it's his first name, which is slightly confusing, not his surname. So Huel and Tudor, they're brothers, but they're also pretty ruthless, aren't they? These people in the 14th century, it doesn't matter where you are, actually, anywhere in Europe, the people in power are bastards. They are not nice people.

What does that feel like? I can't possibly imagine. These two, they occupy two positions of power. So Tito Afganoui is secular side, and Juan, his brother, is a cleric. But they're clearly Ficus Feeves. They clearly work together. And between them, they occupy, is a cleric. But they're clearly thick as thieves. They clearly work together. And between them, they occupy all the levers of power. They know where all the money is

and they can do pretty much what they like. So we've got Huel up Gwarnry and Tudor up Gwarnry, but actually apparently it's Tidia. And so church and state, one's a cleric, one's a sort of local, you know, politician. And then Tidia marries really well, you said, to the sister of Owen G glindor no it's it i i got that wrong it's the aunt the aunt of owen glindor okay but they're all called tidder

and garon we and there's multiple generations and i get very confused happily this happened at the time so okay guilty about that did she know which one she'd married maybe she was confused we've all used that excuse around here everyone everyone everyone's called Chris or Dewi. And I'm like, I didn't know which Dewi it was. Whoops. OK, so Tidia has married into the family of Oenglindua, the great leader of Welsh independence. We did a podcast on him if listeners want to check it out. He's a big deal. He's fighting back against the English.

But Kiri, I want to focus on these two brothers, Hwyl and Tidia. What do you think they're getting up to? They've got plans afoot. Two brothers in North Wales drunk on power. There's never not a power grab, whether that's like in the nightclub, you know, outside the kebab shop. I can just feel it brewing.

Yeah, and if there's a Huel involved, then absolutely. Well, I think power grab is one way of putting it. The other way of putting it is just outright murder. Yeah, pretty much. In 1345, on February the 14th, yes, Valentine's Day, Henry Sheldon, the attorney of the Chamberlain of North Wales, was killed on his way from Denbigh to Gullarvan.

And there's some doubt about what happened. He had a bodyguard of four people. They seemed to have been attacked. And the attacks took place near Gwell's house, And there's some doubt about what happened. He had a bodyguard of four people. They seemed to have been attacked. And the attacks took place near, guess what? Well, near Quell's house. And the people leading the gang of assassins, if that's what they were, were led by Tiddy. This happens on the road towards Carnarvon.

And the numbers of people involved is 60 or 80. Somehow, two of the bodyguards escape. And this is how we know what happened. Other versions say the murder took place at Quell's house or 80. Somehow, two of the bodyguards escape. And this is how we know what happened. Other versions say the murder took place at Quell's house after dinner. Oh, right. So that kebab shop analogy is highly misplaced. I'd have gone for after eight minutes, but absolutely fine if you want to do a murder. So they had their own Sir Valentine's Day massacre.

That's the thing. Oh, yeah. So obviously the English government were in absolute panic. But Quell and Tiddy are untouchable, they can't actually be got rid of. So they're just imprisoned for a bit. Clylans have been launched in Cornwall. And Tiddea ends up imprisoned in Chester. And the consequences are minimal.

A brief period in prison. They kept the lands. They kept the money. And we just pretend it didn't happen. We've got a St. Valentine's Day massacre involving a sort of local Welsh mafia. And they get away with it. Which means presumably there's a sort of local Welsh mafia and they get away with it which means presumably there's a sort of Welsh Jack Lemmon and Tony Curtis trying to run away disguised as female jazz musicians that's that's how I'm seeing this story that's a some like it hot joke for

people who haven't seen the movie go go check it out it's an absolute masterpiece anyway moving on so our brothers are they're bumping off an Englishman which sounds like there's a changing dynamic and obviously Owen Glyndwr is going really well for him initially, his push for independence. But then it goes kind of wrong. And Owain's got three cousins, Meredith, Rhys and Gwilym. They are the sons of Tiddyr, and they're joining the uprising. They're ganging up with Owain Glyndwr against the English. They take Conwy Castle in 1401. How do they do it, Kiri? It's an incredible plan. Oh, interesting. I love Conwy Castle. It's where, in the church hall opposite, is where me and my girls do a dance class once a week. How did they take Conwy? Did they go there

on a very weird day that occurs every year? Did they go there on Pirate Day, where all the locals dress as pirates? Oh, lovely. And everyone's defences are down because everyone's just in a feel-good spirit. Is that what happened? It's not far off, actually. They went on Good Friday when everyone was in church and they just wandered in and went, yep, we'll have it now. Wow.

This is full sitcom stuff, isn't it? It's like a plot from Owning Fools and Horses. These are Welshmen doing repairs on the English castle. That is deemed to be completely normal and completely plausible. Right, yeah. In the middle of a rebellion.

Exactly that. In the middle of a war for Welsh independence. Some Welshman show up and go, hello, we're here to fix the fridge or whatever. It's nearly the start

of a very low-budget pornography film. You need a washing machine that needs mending. Wow, that's a big wrench. There's an uprising joke in there, but I'm not going to make it. Hey, okay. Obviously things start out really well for Oenglindur

and then they go horribly wrong. The whole thing falls apart, the uprising. And these three Tudor cousins, Meredith, Gwilym and Rhys, do they return to their kind of cushy lives or did they get punished properly this time, Adam? Well, only one of them survived. So, yeah. Right, okay. Meredyth is the only one that actually lives past the end of the rebellion. Rhys and Gwilym lose everything

and then get executed. But distant cousins get their laughs. Oh, okay. So it sort of stays in the family. Because again, they switch sides. So it's like Cousin Greg in Succession. He's sort of this weirdo outsider who suddenly gets all this power and all this influence. They decide to settle down to a quiet life, but Meredith survives, but he's got nothing.

So they lose everything. And he has a son, Meredith. He's got a son. He's called Owen ap Meredith ap Tidia. Again, there's a slight Tudor, Tidia kind of name in there. So I'm going to call him a proto-Tudor, but we'll call him Owen Tudor for short. And his father has lost everything, as you've said. So, you know, he's having to start from square one.

He's back to the beginnings again. So he has to become a mid-level servant. He works for an English knight called Sir Walter Hungerford. I mean, if you're going to name an English knight, that's what you're calling him, isn't it? Hello, Sir Walter Hungerford here. Is that my BMW? It is. Thank you. So Owen is down on his luck, but he's young and he's hot, Kiri. So how do you think he scrambles up the social ladder? He's going to marry well, right? If he's young and sexy, because sure, that's what I've done.

I've used my looks and slept my way to the top. And also because he does have a sense of dynasty, right? The family has history and will be well known. So that has social currency, at least. I mean, you're spot on. I mean, in terms of landing an impressive girlfriend, do you want to guess who she is? I mean, she's pretty impressive. Is it Shirley Bassey?

It is Shirley Bassey, yeah. No, I mean, it's even more glamorous than Shirley Bassey, if you can imagine it. It's the Queen of England. What? The Dowager Queen of England, the mother of the king. How has this mid-level servant, the son of a Welsh rebel, how has he scored that level of, she's the Queen of England. This is so Mills and Boone, it's unbelievable.

But like, you know, the powerful queen and the stable boy. It's such a sexy tale. Yeah, we're back to our porn again, aren't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Adam, this is Catherine of Valois. She's French. She's the imported queen who married Henry V, like the great Henry V, and has given birth to Henry VI, who is now the reigning king.

How has this happened? The really embarrassing thing, as a historian, to say is we don't really know. Because Henry V dies in 1422, having agreed with Charles VI, basically through military force, winning Agincourt was part of that, of course. And marrying his daughter, Catherine Catherine is the other part. And the thing that should have happened, had Henry lived, had he not got dysentery and shat himself to death, was he would have been the next king of France. Of course, when Henry dies, this all gets a bit difficult because there are rival French princes wanting to do France as an independent country. You've got a queen.

She's the mother of the king you've got, who is, what, nine months old? Yeah, he's a baby. Henry VI is an actual baby. He's literally a nappet. So the big problem with Henry VI's early reign is, well, he's not actually running anything, is he? Because he can't control his own bladder. And, of course, the mother is French, which presents problems. There's still a war going on with the French.

So what happens is she's sort of minding her own business, raising her son. And supposedly, somehow, about this time, she meets Owen at Meredith at Tidia, as he then was. He becomes Owen Tudor later because, well, it's easy to write Owen Tudor in the paperwork. But we don't quite know how they meet. There's lots of stories. First, the recurring story of a Welshman falling into a lap of the Queen whilst dancing in a pub. And the story is generally

placed at the pub in Wales, which is completely implausible. If it's going to be anywhere, it's going to be in the Thames Valley somewhere. Slough, Maidenhead, somewhere like that. Yes! Be still my beating heart. It's a popular story because chronicler william worcester says at the point when owen was about to be beheaded after losing a battle he apparently said that this his head was the same head that once been the lap of a queen oh his last words go that's quite special it's pretty good isn't it it's definitely good it's

better than please not the face yeah um so that's one story the other story is also kind of charming i mean kiri as a romance novelist what other story would you conjure up the meet cute between the the stable boy or you know actually he's in charge of her wardrobe we think and the dowager queen of england well do you know what if it's anything like the love stories i know where you know an english person and a north orleans person fall in love is she's come to visit her caravan for a holiday and then at the bar on the campsite eyes meet there's a karaoke they go and sing and then i go and spoil all by saying something like i love you and then that's it that's it's a it's a long-lasting sort of summer relationship that happens to change the course of history in the UK. Is that right?

I love that story. If only that were true. The story we've got. Yeah. I mean, we've got the falling in the lap story, which is good, which is a nice one. Because that's sort of like drunkenly stumbling in a pub. Great. Love it. Probably in Slough. But the other one is quite specific, Adam. It involves a cheek injury. But the other one is quite specific, Adam. It involves a cheek injury. Yes. And a touch of the sort of pride and prejudice Colin Firth's of this world as well. Queen Catherine saw a young Welshman bathing and arranged to meet him, disguised as one of her mates. So the couple met and kissed.

And she got a slight, you know, I'm not sure how you get an injury on your cheek kissing. I just don't want to speculate. I mean, kissing. But later on, Owen saw the Queen with a wound on her cheek and realised who that lush maid had been snogging actually was Wow, so it's like a glass slipper but it's an open wound on the face

Yes, Cinderella but with weird facial injuries somehow Maybe I'm not brilliant at kissing but I've never scratched anyone's face while kissing them. You're not doing it right, mate. You're not doing it right. Apologies to my wife. But so Catherine and Owen are getting on.

And, you know, I called Catherine the Dowager Queen, which makes it sound like a sort of Downton Abbey character, like Maggie Smith or something. She's 28. Like she is gorgeous. And I mean, she's basically a quilf, quilf, a queen I'd like to furnish. Why are you laughing? Furnish is the verb because he works in the wardrobe. But she's gorgeous. She's young. She's glamorous.

She's got a one-year-old. But they're both in their 20s. It's classic romance. But what's quite surprising, Adam, is that this is not a sort of summer holiday romance in a caravan, as Kiri has sort of told us. This ends up with like a marriage. The King of England is a child, so he can't say anything about it. But everyone else, they must be furious about this. So is it a secret marriage? The marriage of the Dowdra Queen is a commodity. She's got land, she's got state, she's got money,

she's got diplomatic cachet, and arrangements have been made. Supposedly to have been engaged to Edmund Beaufort, who is one of the children of the bastard children of Edward III. So there's a royal connection there. The Beaufort family will come back to them late. When there was an act of parliament banning a queen's marriage without the king's permission, obviously the king is like, two. We just don't know what happened but we do know a marriage took place absolutely clear about that and we know it was legitimate it was never challenged but it was for fairly obvious reasons secret but uh it must have been discovered at the point that she'd had children yeah i mean you said like secret for a bit but then they end up with kids

quite hard i mean you can't just stuff them in a cupboard and hope no one notices. Like, you know, the Queen of France, you know, the Dowager Queen of England, has had children with another man who is a sort of mid-level Welsh servant, the son of a Welsh rebel. This story is absolutely bonkers. And the sons, I mean, we know of three sons and a daughter, but the daughter doesn't have a name that we're aware of, you know, because girls don't count, Kiri.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I know it well. So what are the sons, Adam? The eldest is Edmund. It's a very English name. You know, former patron saint of England. The next oldest is Jasper.

And the third is Owen. Owen gets packed off to Westminster Abbey to become a monk. But the whole story of the Tudors is about dynastic marriages yeah the women have the power the women have the authority women have the status because let's face it you know you're dealing with someone who's got you know a long lineage in a welsh context what does that count for anything and it's all about marrying well i it's so interesting because i had lazily and in quite a sexist way assumed that it was only women who were marrying well. It's so interesting because I had lazily and in quite a sexist way assumed that it was only women who were marrying well to advance their circumstances because I just

assumed that women wouldn't have any power so they were the ones who would need to sort of push their families, increase the dynasty and increase the power. So it's really interesting to me that a Welsh lad has done good like that and married for power. I've got a lot of respect for him. Let's for him she's all let's not forget she's also hot she's a quilf let's come on let's not diminish the fact that she's you know her late 20s and absolutely got nothing else to do she's just you know walking around winter castle going yeah you know someone else is raising my son probably he's probably with his tutor i you know i've got my tutor my two days for free. I can hang out with a Welshman. Go to Zumba class on a Wednesday.

I don't know. So Edmund and Jasper Tudor. Well, they're not called Tudor. That's the thing. I mean, they're named after, I mean, they're generally named after where they're born. So we call them Tudors. We call them Edmund and Jasper Tudor.

They will become big names in the history books, but they're not quite Tudors yet. But they are now the half brothers of the King of England. These brothers, Edmund and Jasper, are they getting that top level fantastic education because they're the rightful sons of the Dowager Queen? Or are they a bit of an awkward embarrassment? And actually, they're just sort of sent to, you know, Sunday school to learn, you know, one to 10. And that's it. Well, a bit of both, actually, because, because you've got the whole problem of we don't really want to explain how that happened. And that's it. Well, a bit of both, actually, because you've got the whole problem of, we don't really want to explain how that happened

and that's awkward. So they do the sort of pragmatic thing, which is to say, well, we're going to put them in the care of the nuns of Barking Abbey. Right. Handy for London, keep an eye on them. Barking is an important royal foundation, really old royal foundation,

and it's very wealthy, so the nuns can afford to keep them they give them an education their crown's paying they're provided with an education they're provided they don't have any land they don't have any status

but by 1452 they are adult enough that they need to do something with them you can't just let them sort of swan around forever so what Harry does he ennobles them he makes Jasper Earl of Pembroke

and Edmund becomes Earl of Richmond Earl of Pembroke, and Edmund becomes Earl of Richmond. Earl of Pembroke and Earl of Richmond. I mean, to be an Earl is incredibly powerful. Duke is probably the only thing that's rivaling in terms of power. So these two 20-somethings have been handed land, status, armies. They can raise taxes on their lands. And they're in their 20s. They're a fighting age.

And suddenly they're going to need them. Because in the 1450s, mid-1450s, we get a war breaking out, Kiri. It's a pretty famous dynastic war. Do you know which one it is? No. I mean, I'll know it when you say it, but right now, no idea. There's a brand of family-sharing chocolates that you could go to as your reference point.

Oh, right, the War of Quality Street. Is it roses? It is the Wars of the Roses. Yeah, absolutely. In 1455, we get the Wars of the Roses. Game of Thrones is based on the Wars of the Roses. That is your go-to reference point. It is a 30-year civil war. It is brutal.

And it's a struggle between two houses. The House of Lancaster. that's sort of where the Tudors are going to be based, and then the house of York, which is where you'll get your Richard III. And this is a time not just of battles and bloodshed and wars, but also, as Kiri said, advantageous marriages, Adam. So we have our two earls, our two brothers, and they're going to marry well as well. So the marriage is important because the whole business of the claim Henry Tudor, as we're going to have to call him, even though he didn't call himself that at the time,

was to pursue, was based on who his mum was. And his mum is Margaret Beaufort. And she was married to Edmund Tudor, Earl of Richmond. So the older brother in 1455. She was only nine at the time. And she'd already been married once to the son of the Marquess of Suffolk. Marquess of Suffolk gets murdered in 1450 and thus leaves his son without many prospects. So annulling the marriage is quite easy to do. Yeah, I mean, Kiri, your head's in your hands.

I'm so sorry. This is, you know. So her second marriage to the person she'd been granted in wardship to. I mean, wardship's like a sort of backup parent, right? I mean, that's... Yeah, it's another way of getting them income. So she's granted in wardship with all her lands, all her estates. And the Beauforts, don't forget, are the bastard descendants of Edward III and one of his mistresses.

Just like Danny Dyer. So Beauforts have gone through a similar journey to what the Tudors are going through. But they're a generation earlier, just like Danny Dyer. So both have gone through a similar journey to what the Tudors are going through, but they're a generation earlier. So they've become established. They've got lots of land, lots of money, lots of estates. Their second marriage is to Edmund Tudor. So when they're waging, this war's going on, the War of the Roses. So they're on the Red Rose side, the Lancastrian side. And I hadn't't realised that I thought wars are just on the battlefield so is there also a parallel

sort of strategy where you're also sort of getting your ducks in a row in terms of the political stuff of marrying well and that's why you've got a nine year old being symbolically married because it's just a way of accruing power Absolutely, but yeah she's actually married

Imagine being 12 and having a divorce under your belt. Or just like being a couple of marriages deep. It's quite full on. But the point of familial connection is a really important one. The Yorkists marry between themselves. The Lancastrians marry between themselves. Those political groupings are confirmed

by social connection. It makes it much harder to switch sides, apart from anything else. And poor Margaret is a victim in this. She becomes an extraordinary woman. In her maturity, she sort of incredibly bosses it. But at this point, she's 12 years old. And Edmund is selfish and kind of cruel, really, in what he's going to do here. He forces her into a betrothal at the age of nine, which is horribly young. He then marries her at 12, which is young by medieval standards, too young even by medieval standards. And then she is forced to give birth at the age of 13. In fact, by that point, he has already died.

He dies while she is pregnant. So she is widowed and a mother by the age of 13, which is horrifically young. And the damage it does to her body is horrible and lifelong, and she'll never have children again. But she does survive, and Margaret Beaufort will become an incredibly powerful, important politician later in the story. But it's a really sad bit of history here, Kerry. So this poor young girl has to go through all of that alone, pretty much.

But the child will become the first Tudor king. So when Edmund dies, what happens to Margaret? She's alone in South Wales initially, and then she gets married again. So she's been divorced once, widowed once, gets married again to Henry Stafford, who is again on the Lancastrian side. And her son is initially placed in the care of Jasper. This begins a lifelong connection between Henry and Jasper. So Uncle Jasper, right? Uncle Jasper, yeah. But as Henry grows up, she stays in contact with her son through letters.

But in the meantime, Henry VI's regime is falling apart. So he's the Lancastrian king. He suffers from severe mental health problems and can't actually rule in person. This is one of the reasons the Wars of the Roses happen. So you get the Yorker side going to try and claim the throne too. They're called York because the primary claimant is Richard, Duke of York. He wins a bloody battle at Toton in Yorkshire in 1461.

And another one at Mortimer's Cross, after which Owen Tudor, who's still about, we've forgotten about him, but he's captured and he's beheaded. And of course, he's therefore the deposed king's stepdad, which is a bit weird. So the stepdad of the king, the guy who'd married the queen of France or the daughter of the king of France, he's been executed after a battle. So we're now into proper, like, violent, bumping-off-your-rivals territory, Kiri. So Owen is gone, he's dead, territory, Kiri. So Owen is gone.

He's dead. But Jasper escapes. So he's safe. Jasper heads off, ends up in exile in France and spends the next 20 years of his life basically coming as a sort of agent provocateur. He comes in. He makes raids, usually in Wales. Makes a nuisance of himself. It all goes wrong and he runs away.

And this happens two or three times. makes a nuisance of himself, it all goes wrong and he runs away. And this happens two or three times. Henry, meanwhile, is sent off to be raised by one of Ebbw the Fourth, who's the Yorkist king. Ebbw the Fourth's most important battalion is also a Welshman, William Lord Herbert. And Herbert's based in Raglan in south-east Wales, in Moblashire.

And Herbert's interesting because he is another Welshman on the make. he's another person who's trying to achieve status and power and authority for his own efforts you know he'd been he'd fought in the wars in france he'd he'd basically run it like the tudors the proto tudors in north wales he came to dominate south and southeast wales he ran all the martial lordships all those little bits of the on. He pocketed half the money. Find his feet, yep. There's a pattern here. One of the poets that write at the time calls him Yalowent, the Devil of Gwent. Oh, wow.

So even if they don't like you, they have to at least say that you've got power. Yeah, you still get a badass nickname, which is all that matters. Yeah, it's pretty cool, actually. Yeah, the Devil of Gwent is a great name. Yeah, so Henry spends the next 10 years of his life in the care of William Herbert. Herbert ends up dead because he finished losing the side of the battle in 1469.

And then shortly afterwards, Edward IV is deposed. Henry VI comes back from exile, briefly. And Henry is put again in the care of Jasper. It's come full circle. It's come full circle. Sir Henry VI is back on the throne. Edward IV has been booted off the throne. Jasper has returned from his foreign exile. Uncle Jasper. I mean, I want to ask Kiri, I mean, apart from Hollywood vampires and Englishmen who wear red trousers, have you ever met a Jasper? Have you ever encountered a Jasper? It's quite a rare name. It's a good name. It's an amazing name.

But yeah, no, I haven't, do you know what? Despite the fact that I'm partially privately educated, yet to meet a Jasper. Really? And I really thought he'd be in my wheelhouse. Yeah, yeah. And weren't many Jaspers in my Welsh primary school, as it goes.

Well, there weren't many Jaspers in the 15th century, I don't know. It's a really rare name. I mean, he's kind of flying the flag for Jaspers. There's loads of Owens. Yeah, you can't confuse Jasper with in the 15th century, I don't know. It's a really rare name. I mean, he's kind of flying the flag for Jaspers. There's loads of Owens. Yeah, you can't confuse Jasper with anybody else. Which is great because it is incredibly confusing because everyone has the same name.

So Jasper is about the only thing I can hang on to. Exactly. I'm glad it's not just me just clinging to this Jasper, like the one Jasper in the script. Okay, good. Yeah. I mean, it is an unusual name. Where does it come from?

Well, it's French, probably. There's the J sound in, it's French, probably. There's the J sound in Welsh, you know, Kerry. It's Shasper. Shasper. S-I-A-S-B-A-R. Ooh, that's quite nice. And he's called the Earl of Pembroke,

or the King's Uterine Brother, he's sometimes called. The King's Uterine Brother. Absolutely. That's so visceral. That's like a king's brother from another mother, or same mother. mother or same mother no same mother isn't it yeah same uterus okay yeah that's a same uterine come on what would be your um medieval epithet kiri we've we've had the devil of gwent and we've had a uterine brother what's your medieval how would you be labeled by your enemies or friends? Devil of the Uterine, I think. My biology and my extreme temperament coming together into one nickname.

I mean, I can only think of you as, because you're a McLean, I only think of you as a sort of diehard hero. I imagine you in a vest just kicking ass with a machine gun and a Santa hat. I'm forever fighting terrorists, yes. All right. So Jasper is very powerful now. He's returned to power because Edward IV is booted off the throne. The Lancastrians are back in power. Briefly.

That's the key thing. Very briefly. Spoiler alert. Edward IV gets back into power. So you get your swapping of the kings back and forth. And Jasper is renowned for his ability to run away, which is a tremendous skill to have. We've already heard about him running away at Mortimer's Cross in 1461, where Owen has been caught and executed.

But he's got other excellent escapes in his CV. What else has he done, Adam? In 1468, so seven years later, he comes back with a fishing expedition, if you like. The King of France props him up with, I think, three ships and 50 men. And he lands in North Wales, somewhere in Barmouth, probably, and then spends the next couple of months rampaging around North Wales. It's quite hard to rampage with three ships and 50 guys, though, isn't it? It's basically a stag do.

It's not really rampaging. Well, yeah. But, of course, bear in mind, he was a member. He did have Welsh lands. He had lots of Welsh connections. So, basically, he wrote around his mates. And so he managed to raise a few thousand men they went on the rampage in summer 1468

bear in mind there is also a Lancastrian stronghold in North Wales at the time Cardiff Castle is held for the Lancastrians so in 1468 Edward IV decides he's had enough of this Lancastrian outpost and at the same time apparently completely unconnected Jasper rocks up and has a go in the face of an enormous royal army led by William Herbert, which we're probably Henry tagging along. That's the weird thing.

Herbert has probably got Henry with him, you know, age 10 or whatever. Oh, wow. Work experience. Okay. Jasper rocks up and spends his time running away from William Herbert and William Herbert's army. In the meantime, burns Denby. Gets to Denby, tries to take the castle. It's impossible.

Denby is enormous. It's on a really great lump of rock. So he does the easy thing. Burns the town. Holds a few mock trials in the name of Henry VI. And then runs away, disguised as a peasant, back to to France where he remains for the next 15 years. Wow. Okay, so it's not gone that well.

Jasper, has he got his eye on the English throne or is he sort of doing it on behalf of his nephew? It seems to be very much on behalf of his nephew. How old's the nephew at this time then? 10, 11. Yeah. If you have a nephew and they're a 10-year-old and they're like, I want to be king,

don't go and fight battles for them. That's the kind of obnoxious behavior. As an uncle, you need to bring into line and not encourage. They need a Saturday job. They need to learn how to earn their own money, how to do the washing up and hoovering. So we've got Jasper who's sort of skilled at running away. We've heard about, you know, he runs away from Pembroke Castle in 1471. He's disguised as a peasant at one point. He's pretty light on his feet is a nice way of putting it and he's called Jasper so he

wears red trousers at least in my head but again it all goes wrong for him we get Edward IV back on the throne which means Jasper has to leg it again and he's not legging it to France he legs it to Brittany. Brittany is independent of France Kiri it's a separate duchy. And Jasper brings Henry with him, right? He brings his nephew with him. What's it like for them when they get there? Is it like, you know, welcome to Brittany, your new home? Or is it like, oh, God, all right, you can stay in the barn? It's somewhere in the middle because, of course, for the Dukes of Brittany,

this is a politically difficult place for them to be. Because you're stuck between the King of France anyway, and you've got the trouble going on in England, and we don't really want to get involved, if at all possible, because that puts us in a pincer point between two powers who could actually do a serious help. I mean, Henry's put in a tower. I mean, Kiri, imagine a kind of medieval...

Imagine like Shrek and a princess in a tower. He's basically put in one of those, like a sort of large, tall, thin building. And he's like, you stay there. And he's there for 14 years, Kiri. Oh my gosh. That's not going to, especially you've got a spoilt 18-year-old

who'd been told that he absolutely should have ambitions for the throne. I don't think that's going to chill him out, is it? No. He's spending all his youth kind of going, will I ever be king? Will I ever get back to Wales, back to England? It's like staying in an Airbnb beyond, you know, it's nice for a week.

For a couple of weeks it's glamorous. And then you're like, oh God, I've seen the local shop enough times. So we have this important moment, really, 1483. Francis, Duke of Brittany, unfortunately his health deteriorates, but it now is forcing people's hands. And meanwhile, in England, Edward IV dies. The King of England is dead. So the time for action

is now, Kiri. It's 1483, where it's all kicking off and we get into Richard III territory. What do you know of Richard III, Kiri? Just that his name is...

Wait, is he the one who's found in a car park? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes. So he's found in a car park? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes. So he's found in a Tesco in Leicester.

And did he have a problem with his back as well? Yes. I mean, Shakespeare makes him a hunchback, but we obviously know that it's more scoliosis because they found his body. But he steals power, according to Shakespeare. He's got these nephews, the princes in the tower and then they suddenly vanish and disappear

and then suddenly there's a king and it's the brother of Edward IV, Richard III, Duke of Leicester, isn't it, I think? So he's sort of,

some would say a usurper. I'm not going to touch this with a barge pole because people who like Richard III get very passionate in their emails. So I'm going to stay well away from it. All'm gonna say is suddenly richard iii is king and the

princes in the tower have vanished and henry and jasper are like right that's this is it this is the moment launch the invasion fleet and it goes great kiri apart from the fact it doesn't they sort of immediately they just they bad weather, stormy weather, and they have to go home again, back to their 14-year-old castle. So, Adam, is there a sort of sequel invasion? Yes, and Richard III's reign is incredibly unstable. It's subject to several different rebellions. Duke of Buckingham leads one.

It doesn't end well for him either. And 1495, two years later, Jasper and Henry, there's an opportunity there. That instability creates a chance. So they get a fleet together. A few thousand hired French mercenaries.

The King of France is putting the bill, Stanley. Oh, nice. An unstable England is good for France. Yeah, I was going to say, the King of France

is stirring the pot, isn't he? He's like, right, my mortal enemy can have some soldiers and some ships. Off you go. Go cause some havoc. Yeah, good. So they land in Milford Haven in Pembrokeshire. Jasper's stomping ground. So Jasper has contacts there, of course.

So this is southwest Wales. A long way from anywhere, of course, which is one of the problems with it. But they're able to draw the Welsh support and recruit as they go round Wales. And they pick up support from Henry's mother, fourth husband. So Margaret Beaufort's on to her fourth husband. Legend. Okay, classic.

William Stanley, who is part of Richard III's court, but also hedging his bets because he's married to Henry's mother, which is awkward. And they march through Wales, up through Shrewsbury, into the English Midlands, and pick up support as they go along. Richard, of course, is doing the same

at the same time from his supporters. And they meet just outside Leicester. So, a Bosworth field on the 22nd of August, 1485. Final battle of the Wars of the Roses. And it's... well, we all know who wins. Shakespeare! Yeah, sorry, yeah. But yeah, so, Henry wins the battle. battle of the wars of the roses and it's well we all know who wins shakespeare yeah sorry yeah

but yeah so henry wins the battle the invaders win a short victory but it's a product of decades of work jasper probably did the commanding on the battlefield just had the experience and practice but henry had you know henry was a presence there but jasper had done the hard work in surviving and in writing his life i don't know it feels like you're giving him a lot of credit for a man who, I mean, my instinct was about Jasper's, has failed upwards. Running away at the right bits, nearly going to war, but there being a storm and having to turn back. I think he has been very lucky. He has, but ultimately survivors are the people who just, you know, they just managed to live long enough for everyone else to die. And he's just sort of waiting for the right moment and they get lucky. I mean, it's a shock victory.

I mean, Richard III probably should not be dying in battle. He should be sort of staying out of it and staying safe. But he, you know, wades in and gets his head caved in. And, you know, suddenly Henry VII gets to pick the crown out of the mud, pop it on his head and go, hello, I'm the new king. You're welcome. And suddenly, can you imagine what that must be like for Henry, Kiri? He's been in a tower for 14 years on his own.

And then suddenly he's the king of England. That is so, it's impressive. I know from just 18 months in lockdown, I wasn't ready to go out and do anything. The only thing I would have been ready for is incredibly um traumatic and chaotic and bloody war maybe that's why i missed a trick there by just trying to ease myself into doing the big shop but i i'm i'm interested in that because this war of the roses has been so protracted and you know it's probably with the lifespans and you know basically a generation did actually henry coming in did everyone sort of breathe out and go right well this is an element of stability

here well this is where we get the mother this is where margaret beaufort comes to the fore that you know we said that she'd had a very traumatic childhood married off you know well betrothed the nine but now the mums come forward and go right let's sort this out classic mums come forward and go, right, let's sort this out. Classic mums. It's been 30 years of war because the mother of Henry, Margaret Beaufort, she gets in contact with the mother of the kind of Yorkist side. Elizabeth Woodville, is that right? That's right, yeah. And Elizabeth Woodville is Edward IV's widow. Her daughter is Elizabeth York. So Henry would marry Elizabeth's daughter, Elizabeth. This unites the two rival claims to the throne. It unites the Yorkist claim.

The Yorkist claim incidentally has its own Welsh history and connection there, ultimately related Peter Mortimer's to Clulonboa. What did I say? We will claim absolutely anyone as Welsh. And you better believe they did. They played this card really hard in the 1450s, 1460s. Margaret Beaufort was able to say, well, let's just resolve this problem by marrying Henry to Elizabeth. Their children would unite the clones. And that solves the problem of who's going to succeed.

But it's a brilliant bit of branding, isn't it? Because we get the famous Tudor rose, the red and the white petals, which is the combination of the two, the white rose of York, the red rose of the Lancastrian family. In comes Henry VII with his Yorkist wife, Elizabeth of York. And that's it. The Wars of the Roses, done, sorted. The mums have nailed it. They've got in there and gone, all right, we know how to salt this. We can't have any more of this nonsense. I've got this like sort of low key theory anyway,

that sometimes as a woman, I've got a male partner, I'll ask him to do like the washing up and he does such a bad job that I know he's doing it. So I won't ask him again. I'm sure that actually women run the world for years and then said, go on, boys, you do it. And the boys are doing such a bad job of it that they won't get asked again. And really, the mums are going to come through any second now and sort the world problems out. So the shooters are a great example of that. I believe that's called weaponized incompetence because I've heard people on Twitter talk about male incompetence as a deliberate strategy of like you know you know get what I've done anyway. Of course Liz Truss completely goes

against my theory of weaponizing competence being a gendered thing. Henry Tudor, he is king before the age of 30. He's accomplished quite a lot. He's married the daughter of his political enemies. We have the Tudor dynasty, which means, Kiri, I can now officially stop this podcast because we can't get into the Tudors because of our rules. So the podcast must stop now. So it's time for The Nuance Window.

The Nuance Window! I'll stop now. So it's time for The Nuance Window. The Nuance Window! Adam, this is where you get two uninterrupted minutes to tell us anything

we need to know. Kiri and I go and put on our red trousers like Jasper. I mean, I've made up that fact. That's not a true historical fact. I've just, please don't, listeners,

please don't imagine he's wearing red trousers. Adam, you have two minutes to tell us something we need to know about the rise of the Tudors, if that's what they were called. So without much further ado, take it away, please. The key question is how Welsh do you think Henry Tudor actually was? Obviously, you know, in practical terms, not very.

He's got one Welsh grandparent, but he's got one French grandparent and two English. So how Welsh does that make him? Well, in the 15th century, actually more Welsh than you'd think, because that Welsh ancestry is what secures him legitimacy, secures him a long-established lineage which he doesn't otherwise have. And why is that important? Well, partly because there is no such thing as Wales in the period. Wales consists of lots of bits. The, what we historians generally call the principality, and you've got 40-odd odd martial law trips which are effectively 40 bigger states the bits of private property but there is a welsh identity and that was identity is cultural it's political it's based on language so lots of people thought henry was welsh and the poets were chief among

them the poets are political actors in their own right they are there as spin doctors spinning the political interests of the big guys the likes of william Herbert, the likes of Jasper, the likes of Henry. And of course, they're acting in their own self-interest because they get paid for this. And they have circuits, they go around and visit their patrons. And they say, could we have this from you? And here's the political currents that are going on today. And here's who's ruling the roost. They emphasise and stress that King Henry, King Harry, is trying to unify Wales.

What they really want is Wales to be one country, one nation. Well, Dora invents the idea. Henry delivers it. Amazing. Thank you so much. Kiri, he's a proud Welshman after all. I mean, he's not necessarily a Tudor, but he's a Welshman. You can have him.

Yeah, he sounds like me, massively overstating, despite the fact that I was you know was born in england have an english mother people like i'm welsh mate i'm welsh for the day i die and because i see it as fortuitous to my career i mean he just spoke in welsh that's the thing i was so interested in that because in brittany as well it's the brithonic as well that they spoke in that that dialect so everywhere he's hopped around is sort of been, because also that side of England as well, the root is all in the Brythonic. So it's amazing to hear that he would have been, would he have conducted himself bilingually, I presume? Well, I mean, trilingually, because they've had French as well.

Oh, of course. English, French and Welsh. I mean, he spent 10 years at Raglan in the care of William Herbert. It is the most Welsh place imaginable. It produces vast amounts of poetry, vast amounts of patronage. And it's not like I'm at a university in Cardiff. Welsh is the language of that court. He enjoys Welsh things. He employs Welsh servants.

He gives them a bonus on St David's Day. You know, he gets gifts of cheese from Llanpany near Gloucester. He gets a gift of Maes Glyn mead sent up to him from his friends and contacts in Wales. He's in it for the perks, basically. So what do you know now?

Let's crack on now with the So what do you know now? This is our quickfire quiz for Kiri to see how much she has learned. And Kiri, you are holding your face in dread. If in doubt, I'm going to say Owen. It's not a bad guess. We've got 10 questions.

Are you feeling confident? No, no, because I understand so much more than when we started, but it's still, there's sort of eight men who are tangled into one thing for me. So let's see how we get on. That's fair enough. There's been a lot of, and also I've mangled some horrible pronunciations today i'm so sorry to the people of wales uh for my crimes i am trying my best honestly okay question one in the 1200s the first people who are not yet tudors rose to power serving as administrators for which welsh royals

i already don't know begins with g oh not. Oh, not Gwyneth. Yes. OK. So sorry. Question two. On what day of the year in 1345 did Tiddy-o-Ap-Gonry lead a gang to kill an English lawyer called Henry Shelford? Was it February the 14th, Valentine's Day? It was. Question three. The early Tudors, who weren't Tudors, lost everything backing which Welsh leader against the English?

Was it Owen Glyndwr? It was Owen Glyndwr. Question four. You're doing great. Despite being a servant, Owen Tudor landed himself the Dowager Queen of England as a wife. According to legend, how did they hook up? He fell into her lap in a pub

or she saw him do like a Mr Darcy in a pond and be like I want to have a date with him. And then injured her cheek somehow, weirdly. Question five. Edmund and Jasper Tudor were stepbrothers

of King Henry VI. What noble title did he give them when they were in their 20s? Wait, is this a uterine thing? But what noble title was it? Not Duke, but?

It was Earl of Pembroke and Earl of Richmond. It was, yeah, brilliant, well done. Question six. Super wealthy Margaret Beaufort was tragically young when she was forced to marry Edmund Tudor. How old was she when she was betrothed to him? Was it nine? It was nine and they married at 12, yes.

Horrible, horrible stuff. Question seven. Jasper Tudor had a talent for escaping from battles. In which civil war was he fighting? Think chocolates. Oh, War of the Roses. Very good. Question eight.

After escaping from the siege of Pembroke Castle in 1471, where did Jasper and Henry Tudor flee to for 14 years? Brittany. It was Brittany. Question nine. How did Margaret Beaufort and Elizabeth Woodville put an end to the Wars of the Roses? Henry married the York woman.

Yes. And these were united families. Yes, Elizabeth of York and Henry Tudor married to unite their houses. And this for a perfect ten, Kiri. In what year was Henry Tudor crowned Henry VII of England, beginning the Tudor dynasty? I don't know.

14-something, towards the end of the 14th. Yeah, 1480? I'm going to say 6 because I was born in 1986. Oh, no, 1485. 9 out of ten. It's a very strong score. Well done. We've had an incredibly complicated rummage

through the Tudors who weren't Tudors. Thank you so much, Kiri. And listener, for more on Welsh hero Owen Glyndwr, check out our episode with the lovely Ellis James or for more historical escape artists, you know, if you want your Jasper sequel, check out the episode we did on Jack Shepard, the 18th century criminal celebrity. He's very funny. You'll find them all on BBC Sounds. And remember, if you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a review,

share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds so you never miss an episode. But all that's left for me to do is say a huge thank you to our guests. In History Corner, we had the charming Dr Adam Chapman from the Institute of Historical Research. Thank you, Adam. Thank you, everybody. And in Comedy Corner, we had the magnificent Kiri Pritchard-McLean. Thank you, Kiri. Thank you so much for having me. I've loved that. My brain is throbbing, but in a very lovely way. That might be a stroke, so get that checked out. I can smell toast. Is that okay? Oh, no. Okay. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we hack away at the roots of another historical family tree. But for now, I'm off to go and sign a 14-year lease on a chateau in Brittany.

Sounds lovely. Bye. You're Dead to Me was a production by The Athletic for BBC Radio 4. The research was by Caitlin Rankin-McCabe. This episode was written by Emma Neguse, Caitlin Rankin-McCabe, Emmy Rose Price-Goodfellow and me. It was produced by Emma Neguse and me. The assistant producer was Emmy Rose Price-Goodfellow. The project manager was Isla Matthews and the audio producer was Steve Hankey. Hi, I'm Helen Lewis and I want to tell you about a podcast I've made for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. It's called The New Gurus,

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