A Geek History of Time - Episode 175 - I, Asimov Part II

Episode Date: September 10, 2022

So first thing foremost, I think being the addition of pant leggings is really when you start to see your heroes get watered down. The ability to go straight man, that one. Which is a good argument for absolute girls. Everybody is going to get behind me though, and the support numbers will go through. When you hang out with the hero, it doesn't go well for you. Grandfather took the cob and just slid it right through the bar. Oh god, I'm sorry. Okay.

And that became the dominant way our family did it. Okay. And so, both of my marriages, they were treated to that. Okay, wait, hold on. Yeah, rage, I could. How do you imagine the rubber chicken? My grandmother actually vacuumed in her pearls. Oh my god, you always did.

We had the sexual revolution. It might have just been a Canadian standoff. We're gonna go back to 9-11. Oh, I'm gonna get over it. And I don't understand the book, it's a spoiler. Agra has no business being that big. With the cultists, we all win. Agra has no business being that big. This is a geek history of time.

Where we connect Nurturie to the real world. My name is Ed Blalock. I'm a world history and English teacher at the middle school level here in Northern California. And I am still, this is now my second year into it. I am still adjusting to teaching sixth graders. And the problem I have is that I'm used

to dealing with seventh graders who are far more jagged. That's the best, that's the best kind of descriptor I can think of. They have a lot more spiky edges and sharp points on them than sixth graders because between sixth grade and seventh grade, the prefrontal cortex of the brain shuts down for maintenance and does not come back online like at all until 25 15 well it starts coming back around 15 but it's not it's not like the paving work in the painting of the lines isn't done until 25 but but seventh grade into eighth grade, it's shut down completely. And so neurologically what this means

is that instead of stimuli coming through the vision center and the hearing center and going through the prefrontal cortex for interpretation and calculation of response, they go instead to the amygdala. And so seventh graders are all amygdala all the time, which explains why I'm going to bet that 75 to 80% of our listening audience will agree

that possibly the most miserable year of their lives was somewhere around 13 to 14 somewhere in there barring some terrible traumatic event just like like systemic misery is peak highest around between like 12 and 14, because your brain is literally interpreting everything as to whether or not it's a leopard trying to eat you on the savanna, okay. And so I'm used to dealing with that. And now I'm dealing with six graders

who are still little kids. And so today, I had the wonderful, the wonderful experience that came through me for a loop for a minute because I, like I haven't dealt with six graders that much. And I had one of the boys in my class. And I've only had these kids for like a week now. They said, Mr. Boylock, I said, yeah, he said, I asked a girl

to dance yesterday. And I had to, I had to stifle a laugh, not because it was like, Oh, you little kid, huh? But like, there was this, there was this wonderful bubbling up of, of like, that's so awesome. You know, and I, you know, kind of, you know, maintain my composure. I let, let, you know, a little bit of a smile come to my face. And I said, oh, yes, so what'd she say? She said, yes. In exactly that tone of voice. And I'm not used to that. Like, I had to, I literally had to like step aside. I was very beginning of the period. I had to step aside for a second and actually, I have regained my composure

because I wanted to immediately run to my phone and message my wife like, oh my God, these kids are too God damn cute. So like this is a huge change and so far it's a very positive one. But yeah, that's, that's, that's where I am right now, what I have going on. How are you doing? And who are you?

Oh, I'm Damien Harmony. I'm a high school last year doing it. Latin teacher and US history teacher. I've been writing curriculum all some are long and I've been depressed as a result. Well, yeah, it's so harrowing but I'm doing good stuff. So that's the upside is like I really do enjoy research. Yeah. So that's that's what I've been doing. That's what I've been doing. Couple things. One, I found out recently that every single person who has worked on this movie is now

dead, and I'm wondering if this movie is cursed. No Sforatu, you've heard of it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Came out in May of 1922. Yeah, that's right. And every single person on that movie is dead now. And that's just well, sort of we don't know exactly what happened to Max Shrek. That's good point. It's worth noting

that Max Shrek has no other film credits in any other movie anywhere ever before or since. He did. That's not true. Isn't it? No no he did a bunch of German films oh did he yeah oh I got suckered by an urban legend yeah you did okay cuz yeah cuz I I I had gotten suckered by the story that like no no it's entirely possible max track might really have been a vampire no he worked for unfortunately he worked for like when the Nazis took over films. He put a lot of films for that. Like, yeah, they did a version of Pure Gents that he was in. Which is okay. I can see the Nazis doing that. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, no, he did a whole bunch of German films. Okay. Well, my best, my best creepy story about that is. But he is dead. But yeah, but then you know, it's worth noting that

Nosferatu was made in what year? 1922. So you decided it's first year. 100 years ago. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Just saying. Just saying. Okay. All right. Everybody involved would have been born everybody involved would have been born at or before 1900. Trek himself was born in like 1897 I want to say. Yeah, I'm going to say I think you're stretching a little bit thinking the movie's cursed. Yeah, you know, no, I'm sorry. He's older than he was older than Chaplin and Hitler. So he was born in 1879. Oh, shit, really? Yeah. Yeah. That's how I remembered because I flipped the number. So I was like, 97. That would

make him really young. Yeah. Yeah. No, he was born in 70. Okay. So yeah. Yeah. But uh, but now he's dead. And I think it might have something to do with being on that film. Like, okay, I look forward to the episode where you give me that urban legend. Yes. Yeah, connect all those. No, it's true that he's dead walled that wall. I'm sorry. Yeah.

No, no, I, okay, moving on. Anyway. So, well, so WrestleMania six was in 1990. Okay. And Super Bowl that was in 1990 would have been Super Bowl 23. Something like that. Okay. And Super Bowl, that was in 1990, would have been Super Bowl 23, something like that. Yeah. Maybe 24. So anyway, if you did a comparison of people who were in each, proportionally, there are so many more people who died since doing WrestleMania 6 compared to all the football players that were in Super Bowl. Okay. And that's that's kind of a weird thing. Like it's it's a it's a it stands out

as being like one of the most people are dead from this WrestleMania. WrestleMania. Oh really? Yeah. I'll do a rundown of the card for you sometime. And it's like dead dead dead dead dead like there's matches where the only person who's alive who was in the ring is the ref. And there's other matches or none of them are alive. No shit. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I think well you want to talk about a cursed event then. Yeah. No kidding. And and mean, wrestlers, yeah, as a profession, it doesn't lead to a long life expectancy. But, you know, still the thing is, it sounds like a journal house. It did, but in the 1980s and 90s, it was a different beast. I mean, it really, yeah, okay. Yeah, it was, yeah, it was in 1990, it was the one that was in Toronto. Okay.

And yeah, I'm just thinking back to like all the people who were in it and there are so many people who are dead. Wow. That were in it. I'm just, I'm looking right now at the list. This is Damien looks at list of wrestlers. Which he does for fun. Yeah. Without without having. Okay. So this is the one. This is the one that this is just what he does. Yeah. This is the one that had it. Dusty roads and sapphire with Miss Elizabeth in their corner against

macho king Randy Savage and Queen Sherry. Not a single person in their own matches alive. Yeah. not a single person that are all matches alive. Yeah. And none of them were super old. Like there are wrestlers that lived into their 80s. Oh, yeah. But the timing guys. So it's not the lifestyle of the constant grind and the risk and the ring so much as the once it became televised

and stuff like that. Yeah, well, yeah. And so how many of those know, how many of those people, how many of those people, you know, were familiar with Bolivian marching powder. Right, you know, Old tones. And, you know,

Here's another one, Rick Rude with Bobby Hannon against Jimmy Superfly Snooka. All three of them are dead. Dude. Yeah. Like, it's, Yeah, that's a sobering kind of thing to look at. Yeah. She really is bad news brown versus body body, paper, both dead. Fuck. Um, yeah. Uh, Bruce Barber beefcake is the only one who's alive. Oh, no, no, I'm sorry. Mr. Perfect is the only ones alive in or who died from that. Bruce beefcake versus Mr. Perfect with the genius Lanny Poffo

Who's the brother of a much Ameriani savage earthquake versus Hercules with both dead? Wow. Yeah, yeah, and there's other people like oh shit all of them are alive So it's it's a weird thing, but I was gonna talk about how hot it is here in Sacramento Because we know that that shit's timeless. Well, it's seasonal, but it could be any year. Yeah, seasonal as in from February through January. Like, that's a little bit of an exaggeration.

Not by much anymore. December, December and January are into that. There are a couple months out of the year where wearing slippers make sense to me. Where wearing a sweater makes some sense to me. Yeah. This ain't one of them. No, no.

So I had to stop on the way home from work yesterday to get stuff for dinner. And one of the things I wanted to pick was a registry chicken at the grocery store. Stop at the grocery store, the rotisserie was outside. Am I as wealthy? And all of the chickens were overcooked. Yeah.

Like there was no oven. They were just out there rotating in the heat. Yeah. No, it was bad. Yeah. I, I, yeah. And of course, right now, for me, the air conditioning on my car,

I have to get in the car and roll percentile dice before I go anywhere. And if I roll over 50, my air conditioner does not work. Oh my God. And so yesterday I rolled a 99. And it was and it was a hundred and eight. Yes.

It was bad. Well, you park outdoors, right? Yeah, I don't have any choice. Yeah. My school has not gotten on the on the on the grain of you know getting shade and solar panels in the parking lot yet. I'm like I want to I want to talk to my district about like of all of the things that we could find a way to spend money on. Like here's one that will make everybody better. This will make a generation for a long time. Yeah. So yeah, speaking of things making life better

for generations to come. Uh, uh, well, automation. Yeah, that too. Uh, robots. Yes. Yeah. And we'll Smith movies. Yes. Yes. Some are blockbusters. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So last episode I talked about what Asimov actually wrote in the Caves of Steel and to kind of recap what that was. It was a journeyman-like murder mystery that was a a mcguffin for a very thoughtful science fiction story, very high concept about very dense population living in, you know, with a population of eight billion people on planet earth, which anybody in 1953 was an inconceivably huge number and we may have surpassed it now. But anyway, talking about our colleges, people living cheek to jowl with each other, colonization, politics with colonies and the former colonizers, all of this kind of stuff. It's very, very, very, like I said, high concept. And in many ways, it is kind of a precursor

of what we would call social science fiction. So that's Caves of Steel, the beginning of the Robots series. Sure. Now, I robot the Hollywood blockbuster film led by Will Smith opened in 2004. The movie is still nominally a murder mystery. It still has a human cop working alongside an Android in Chicago. Yeah. In this case, they move it to Chicago instead of

New York, which, all right, cool. It still makes mention of the laws of robotics. And that's basically where the relationship to Asimov stops. It is not set in the same universe. There are no massive megacities. Chicago and Irobat looks like Chicago in 2004 with some additional CGI effects for new buildings. It's like what 2004 thought 2004 would look like. I mean, it really does only feel like

a couple generations. I think there's still the L train is still there. Yeah, it's a little bit more in the generation ahead. Yeah. Yeah. And there are no massive megacities. There are no off-world colonies. Traveled doesn't, space traveled doesn't even get mentioned.

It's not part of this world, or at least it's not part of this story. Robots are not human-like. The interesting thing is, well, depends on how you want to say human-like. I mean, they don't have synth flesh or anything like that. Yeah, what I'm talking about is their appearance. Okay. It is an important plot point in the caves of steel that Daniel all of all is externally indistinguishable from a human. Okay. Okay. That's that's just occurred to me and I apologize for John.

That's blade runner. Yes, it is blade runner. It's just a new R version of high robot or caves of steel. Yes. Having fallen asleep within the first 20 minutes of Blade Runner and never turned it back on. I fucking hate noir. I know. I know. I watched one noir that I liked. At some point, I'm gonna have to sit down with you like and force you like pump you full of coffee and be like no, okay Look, this is this is Foundational would be the wrong word. This is this is a critically important thing for you to understand and understand the whole goddamage genre sure

Need to sit through this And be like 110% judgy because that's my interpalent and coming out But like no dude you have to watch Blade Runner, which I feel guilty for even saying because I admitted to a bunch of people a couple of years ago, all right, I know it took me forever, but I finally read foundation. And like all of my friends were like, no, that's cool. Like, whenever you get around to it, it's fine. Even if you don't read it, it's okay.

And I felt so validated. And now I'm completely undoing that. But I'm like, no, man, come on. At some point, you're gonna watch Blade Runner. I tried. I know you did. I know. I know. And I don't. Anyway, I'm war with myself about how I feel about the fact that you haven't watched it. Because like, oh my god. Because I love it so goddamn much. I think New York is like that though. It's like punk rock. Like if you love it, you love it. And if you don't, you do not. You really don't get it.

Yeah, you don't, yeah, you don't understand it. Yeah. And you know what's funny about that is there's some punk, like I will freely admit, I don't get the sex pistols. Like at all, I do not get the sex pistols at all. But the clash I can groove out to. Do you think it's because they made it more mainstream? I, I think it's because they made it more mainstream. And I think it's partly because unlike sex pistols,

not knowing how to play their instruments wasn't part of the point for them. Oh, okay. If that makes sense. Yeah, I just, I don't give a shit about punk either. So okay. I'm like, I don't like it. Particularly, I think it's very important. Culturally, I think it's vital to the growth of music. I think the things that it did and synthesized are very important. Yeah, but it doesn like it doesn't it doesn't move you. Yeah. No, but like rock the Casbah. Mm-hmm. Like if that comes on in the car, it's not punk though. Is it? Well, it I mean, depends on who you want to see. Here's the thing. People also get deeply militant about what is punk and what is right. So, okay, it's pretty poppy for punk, but like still. Okay. So okay, it's pretty poppy for pop, but like still okay. So anyway, anyway, back to back to

Asimov and what is an asimov sure which is much easier lying to denote. I will just point out hey puts his name on things yeah pretty much And so in in the universe of I robot, the movie from 2004, robots are artificial intelligence. They are sapient. They are self-aware. It is established. They are self-aware. But they do not look human

and they do not behave indistinguishably from humans. A robot is clearly a different thing from a human. Deniel Oliver is not emotional, but he does have the same thought processes as a human, if that makes sense. Sure. Sure. So the robots in the movie, I robot, are not human like all those sunny, voiced by Alan Tudic, who is a gift to humanity. He and the generation of robots that he is part of are more human looking than the robots who came before them. Right. It is a plot point within the movie that they are a new generation of robots,

that they are an evolution of robots. And they do look more human, but it's interesting to note, they're intentionally designed to trigger the uncanny valley. Yeah. Okay. And for those who aren't familiar with what I did with the term, the uncanny valley, humans,

we, we, we see faces in things. Like everywhere we look, we see facial patterns. Like we close them where they know this. Yeah. Backs of cars. Yeah. Yeah. And if you create a face that is close enough to a human face to be almost human, but not close enough to be indistinguishable. being more trustworthy or in-genuine,

and instead of people being more attracted to it, people are horrified by it. People, people, there is this revulsion, the stepping back. The uncanny valley is where a face gets just human-like enough to be deeply goddamn creepy. And the faces of the robots and I robot, do a really good job of that. Like, like, there is a genuine like, okay, wow.

And so there's that as a plot point in the film. And then the other thing is it's an action movie. Right. wrapped around a science fiction murder mystery. Like at its at its core, this is an action flick. Which is yeah, yeah, that's car chases. There's jumping off. There's climbing stuff. All kinds of yeah, it's done violence. There's chasing. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm fully with you. And and like, don't get me wrong. I am fully convinced that some of the best movies that have

ever been made are action films. Aliens, for example, is an amazing piece of cinema and it is totally an action film. But it's a very different beast than what Asimov wrote. In Asimov's book, but it's a very different beast than what Asimov wrote. In Asimov's book, there are no car chases. Nobody jumps out of an overhanging office into the lobby of an office building in a shower of shattered glass. There's no gun violence, there's no car wrecks, there's no army of androids leaping out of a vehicle to try to murder somebody. Sure, sure. You know, none of that kind of stuff happens. It is, it is very much a murder mystery wrapped up in a science fiction story. Whereas the movie is an action film with a mystery at the core of its plot.

is an action film with a mystery at the core of its plot. Would be the way I describe it. Yeah. Now to summarize the film, Will Smith's character is Detective Del Spooner. Chicago Police Detective has a beef against robots. Yeah, he's the racist black man. Yeah, essentially, yes. The robot assist responsible for developing new varieties

of AI is believed to have committed suicide. Right. And he also trained a pig to herd sheep. And yes, it is the first man to create a warp drive. So yes, yeah, important development there. And he was very corrupt police chief in LA. Okay, which movie is that? development there. Very. And he was very corrupt police chief in LA. Okay, which movie is that? LA confidential. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, by the way, a another treasure of the stackers, he's amazing. What's his name? James James. Oh, anyway. All right. One of us has to look it up. But anyway, you keep talking. Yes,

Spooner suspect that a robot did it. And everybody around him looks like, okay, no, look, this is just because you've got your thing against robots. Right. Because there's three law. There's three law. There's three laws. This doesn't work. Right. There are car chases. Some flashbacks to why Spinner has an issue with robots and an artificial arm. It's right. He had artificial ribs too. Like that whole area. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. And we're going to come back to talking about that in a minute. But you know, in the end, again, just like in the last episode, spoiler alert for a piece of media that's been out for, you know, well over a decade, almost 20 years, almost 20 years. It turns out Alan Tudick's character, Sonny and the Android did kill can control all the newest generation of robots on earth

the fifth giant, if I recall, yes, I believe you're right. Yeah. was about to incite a robot takeover because of the first law. Yeah, it would have been fully consistent with the robot law. With the laws. Yes. As James Cromwell. As the James Cromwell. James Cromwell. Yes. Yes. Why can't Jesus Christ? His last name is Cromwell. I that's probably why I can't remember it like why the first law can go bad. Yeah, and so the thing is, when the film was originally conceived, it was not supposed to be at all related to Asimov or the robot series or anything.

The original concept for the film was a locked room mystery. That got into talking about, what does it mean to be human, that got into talking about artificial intelligence and these kinds of issues. It was completely separate from Asimov. The original script didn't even directly reference anything like the three laws, like the laws of robotics. But as tends to happen the studio looked at the script and went, you know what? There's some really good ideas here, but I tell you what, let's fiddle with this.

And then it got passed on to somebody else who went, well, okay, but let's fiddle with this. And oh, hey, let's put Will Smith and lead role. Okay, well, if we're doing Will Smith, we gotta make it an actioner because that's what everybody's prepared to watch him in. Okay. Right, because men in black at this point, and all that kind of stuff. Right.

I mean, he's done other roles. It's gonna say Independence Day. Yeah, yeah. Enemy of the state. Yeah. Like there was like a four year run there where he was the, the number one box office draw in the summer. Yeah. like a four year run there where he was the,

the number one box office draw in the summer. Yeah. Like that became him. Yeah. And I'm gonna talk about that briefly at the end as well. But, you know, and so well, okay, let's get Will Smith. And if we're gonna do that, then let's, let's tweak this to make a little more action or e.

And we wound up with the movie that we got. And, you know, again, not a bad thing, but then somebody went, well, okay, if we're talking about robots, as well as three laws of robotics, we can bring that in here, and let's call it iRobot. And we have rights to the title. And some of the concept we are now using, you know,

three iterations, four iterations of the script in. Now we're borrowing from Asimov. So we're gonna say, inspired by ideas from Isaac Asimov's work. And so the thing is for a whole lot of, how can I put this um Tweety science fiction fans who went into the theater expecting an asimov movie this film was not what we I I hesitate to say that, what we went and expected. Now I had a lot of fun.

It's a well put together film. I think it swings for the fences and it doesn't quite 100% connect on everything. There are some places where it goes weirdly overboard. The tunnel scene comes to mind. Where it's like, well, okay, we're going to make this big. We're going to make this summer blockbuster. So we're going to have the big set piece, you know, action sequence. And I feel like, I feel to me, narratively story would have been better served if that scene was not quite so big.

If that makes sense. I kind of, yeah. So, and I mean, this is all me, you know, critiquing and, you know, I'm sure other, other viewpoints are exist on it. But, you know, and so the interesting thing is the novel Caves of Steel was written in 1953 and I spent the last episode talking about how it is a product of its time. I don't think you could make I robot today and have it be the same film. I genuinely, I think there are so many things in this movie that are so very early 2000s that I don't think you'd be able to make it again. So it's 2004, right? Right. And we're going to eat our vegetables again, history lesson. So 2004, Iraq war, Afghanistan war, Patriot Act passed two years before in 2002. Right. Okay.

We have drones being heavily used in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now they're under human control. They're basically remote control v-hidrones. Yeah. They're drones, but they feel in the popular conception, they feel like robots. Yeah, it's a new kind of warfare. It's a new kind of warfare. It's an evolution of the technology being used. In the early 2000s, people became aware of programs like Carnivore, official name DCS 1000, monitoring their emails. Now, this has been happening since the late 90s, but it was scaled up after 9-11. Yeah, it was echelon prior to that. And echelon was, we'll listen to your people, you listen to our people. And that way, we're not spying on our own people.

Yep, listen to you knowing your surveillance state facts. I took a class, so, okay, after my first divorce. Okay. I had a friend say, you need to go to singles bars. I said, I don't drink. They go, you need to go somewhere where you can meet people. I said, I'll just go back to school. I'd finish my credential.

Not an entirely bad plan. I'll be there with people who want to improve their brains. I'll take the classes that I want to take. There you go. So the interests will compound, right? And this is how I met my second wife that I want to take. There you go. So the interests will compound, right? And this is how I met my second wife, actually, it worked.

We're very well. Sign language class. But the class that preceded that, the class that I took directly before that, where I walked from Alpine Hall to Eureka Hall, was he might still be alive, but John Syers, intelligence and espionage class. Okay, that sounds fucking awesome. It was awesome.

And the thing is, we, I mean, it was 2004. Okay, so right when the movie, yeah, yeah, no, it was 2003. I apologize. Okay. Okay. Before the movie, but still yeah. So I mean, it was like we watched the state of the union address for our first class period. Oh, let's roll. Yeah. Oh, shit. Okay. I had forgotten. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, because that's yeah, that that night I I Want to say that night I met my my second wife but That's an emotionally intense period of time for you. Well, it was it was for me

It was go from that to sign language. So yeah, yeah, I didn't know the destiny that was a well. Yeah, I know of course But yeah, so I mean I was I was in that class and I'd taken a class with that man already and he loved having me in that class. And so he would just call me a rascal anytime he saw me on campus. Damien, you old rascal. But he never talked about his career in intelligence, but everybody was pretty. Everybody had made up stuff about like he must have done this, you know, and a really funny thing about it is half of what you all made up probably was true.

Oh, yeah, easily. Because like, you know, yeah, but, but he knew the inner workings of all the agencies, like he really studied this stuff. So everybody else was like the NSA, they do blah, blah, blah. I'm like, no, they can't do blah, blah, blah, because if you look at the sheer volume of what they process, they're only catching 5% and blah, blah, you know, and, you know, here's how they actually made pizza boxes out of all their intelligence and all kinds of wacky shit. Okay. But, you know, I learned from him about intelligence and espionage.

So echelon was absolutely part of that. And at the time, strat 4, producer George will know strat 4, strategic forecast, I think it was called. Yeah, no, I had a subscription of them for a little while. Exactly. It was an email that you would get every week. So that was strat 4. Then when podcasts came up, they did podcasts for about three months and then they stopped. But yeah, so back to what you were saying, we were using drones. Eschelon had graduated into what was it called again? Carnivore. Carnivore, which in official parlances referred to as DCS 1000 because in the popular press uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, the large scale omnipresent surveillance state and security culture

that like you and I and everybody listening to this podcast now have as the background of our daily lives right started around this time in the weight of 9.11 um and so that is that is is the technological sphere of what was going on around the making of the film. Now, the movie brings up some really compelling questions about sentience and what it means to be human. It really manages to touch on some amazing stuff. And this is kind of why I say that it swings really hard and it doesn't.

It's a deep foul. And it's a deep foul. Okay. Because I think it brings a lot of this stuff up. And then in the interest of making a tent pole action movie, it walks away from it. making a tent pole action movie, it walks away from it. The movie has powerful moments where it almost inspires as a movie and high concept kind of thinking. Like we find out that Sonny actually has a second brain that allows him to judge whether the higher good is served by the laws of robotics in a given situation. Yeah, they touch on that in his flashback about getting hurt. Yeah. Yeah.

The moral ambiguity, situational ethics versus rigid laws. Right. Because Will Smith has a line where he says, I'm getting to it. I'm getting to it. We're gonna, because there's multiple levels, the spooner, the character of Spooner interacts with all of this on multiple kinds of levels. Right, right. And so, but Sunny has the second brain that allows him to not only try to follow the laws of robotics, but to judge the laws of robotics and decide in a given situation how the greater good or the higher good is served. Right. And so, I mean, that's, that's,

that's an amazing philosophical point, but it kind of gets treated by the movie just like a plot point as a MacGuffin and an explanation for, well, well see this is how he could actually like be the one to kill the scientist. You know, and there's no. They they they they have it there. And and they make use of it as as kind of an excuse for this is how the mystery gets solved and that's kind of it. They leave it there like a sock on a shower rod. You know, um, and there's, and like I wish there had been more done with with that. Um, robots in the movie, behavior ways that can't be explained by their programming.

in the movie, behave in ways that can't be explained by their programming. They automatically, when they get placed in storage containers, there's this amazingly evocative scene where the earlier generation robots are all being shipped off to be shut down. Because the company putting all the robots out is like if you own an older generation robot, we're gonna upgrade you to the new one, you know, ship your old robots off.

And they're all going into these storage containers and you see them and they automatically like line up. Yeah. They rank up and that's not and there's a commentator. They kind of have a voiceover of this news story going on in the background of a commentator saying, we don't know why they do that. They're not a commentator saying, we don't know why they do that. They're not programmed to do that. We don't know why they do that.

Sonny mentions that he dreams. Yeah. And electric sheep. Yeah. And there you go with your with your genre references. I don't know. I'm not knowing. Mr. I don't read fiction.

I don't. That's that's the that's the part that's frustrating for everyone. It's like, how can you be so literate and you never know that you don't want. Yeah, because it's the water you swim in. Yeah. And and so the question is, yes, any dreams. Yeah.

Is this is the speaking to like an idea of essentialism? Right. Is this speaking to the idea of the discovery of spirit? Are they trying to make some kind of statement about the nature of consciousness? Like, like, what is this? And they throw this out there, and I was sitting in the theater watching this, and I'm like sitting in the theater watching this.

And I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. And then I just moved on to another fucking action sequence. And I'm like, don't get me wrong. I enjoy an action sequence, but you just gave me intellectual blue balls. And I need you to do more with this idea. Like, for the love of God, monster, you know, and again, as I mentioned, part of the plotline involves the mass retirement of prior generations of robots, because the

new generation, sonny's generation, who don't all have a second brain study is special. Which like we could talk about is he the chosen one? What's the deal like that? Right. But the new generation of robots that are going to replace all these older models, they are all centrally wired through Vicky, VikI-K-I, the huge gigantic, overprotective, incredibly powerful AI. And so there are themes introduced here of talking about planned obsolescence, right? Fears of replacement by automation. Yep.

Like, you know, the robots, the old robots here are standing in for human workers, right? Mm-hmm. And so I mean, there are all these amazing themes. Like, and these ideas that they're touching on, and I'm like, Oh my God, this is awesome. Oh, yeah. And they're pulling all kinds of stuff in. Yeah.

From other robots, like the fact that Vicki was originally a seven year old girl built by Ted in small wonder. was originally a seven year old girl built by Ted in Small Wonder. Like, where do you, how, how do you do that? Like teach me your tricks, see food like, because holy shit. How did you not get that connection when you were doing a research? You're like, and it's Vicki and you're like, and you didn't think of the seven year old? Because, because Small Wonder, like really, yeah, talk about a deep cut. Like you and you and for other people watch that show. Yeah. I mean, I remember the title, but I remember it mostly because

it was flesh in the pan. It was like, yeah, that was bad. It ran for a couple seasons. It was like, yeah, that's the wild part. It's like, it's, you remember when we did the cartoons that deserved more? Yeah. I was shocked because I said, any cartoon that got 65 episodes was automatically disqualified from my search, right?

Yeah. The ones that I'm like, oh, this deserved more. And I'm like, how did the hell did they get 83 episodes? When? What? Yeah. And they were consecutive. It wasn't like, and then 10 years later, they rebooted it. No. I think small wonder ran like two to four seasons. It was insane. Yeah, it's nuts. Yeah. You know, it's, it's, I don't remember what the, what the name of the effect is, but like, if you tune into a classic rock radio station, and you listen to the stuff from the 60s and the 70s,

you're like, man, this is awesome. You would think that the 60s and the 70s, were this pair of decades where rock music was just like amazing across the board. And all there was. Yeah, and no, and the fact is actually in 60s and 70s, we're full of shitty garbage. Yes. Just like every other generation. Just like every other generation and every other genre. And what we hear now are the classics. And like the amount of

crap TV that is still in my memory from the 80s is kind of staggering. Oh, yeah, like it's well, like a fun exercise to depress yourself too is to look up the number one song that was playing the day you were born on the billboard top 40. Oh, yeah. Look at the number song was playing when you were born, when your wife is born, when your son was born, and pick other family members that were born either in your age or younger. And you'd be like, I've never heard of that song. How was it number one? Like, and then you look down the list and you find like number five and number six. And you're like, those songs were four years old at that point. What the shit is this? And then you'll find a song that you're like, oh, well, this was iconic. How was it number 22 when this

ship was number one? Like it's so it's wild. Like crazy. I remember, what was it? God, I forget what year it was. It might have been the year that Marty McFly went back into the future. So 53 54. Anyway, One of those years, I wanna say it was 50, and I wanna say 54. And the number one song was the Ballad of David Crockett. I'm like, hey, the Ballad of David Crockett is a banger. And I will die on that. All right, yeah.

Yeah, in the meantime, Elvis is hitting everything. Okay. In the meantime, like Chuck Barry, like Johnny, like all his other shit, but ballot. No, no, it's a plot point. It's a plot point. I know. I know. Johnny, we got that out yet. Yeah. Yeah. So don't get that twisted. But you get my point. Yeah. No, I totally Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Statements about the ballot of David Krakhan aside. Yeah. No, you're totally point. Yeah, no, I totally can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, statements about the ballad of David Krakhan aside Yeah, no, you're totally right. Yeah So I interrupted to no no no no wonder which had 96 episodes I found out four seasons What okay? Okay, anyway, yeah our culture is a goddamn wasteland so It was then it still is. So, you know, at the same time that's going on, culturally. We're also seeing the expansion in the in the very low 2000s, the consciousness within within the public of the expansion of internet connectivity is people

are becoming more aware of it. So Web 2.0 originally started the adoption of the set of protocols that became Web 2.0 started in the late 1990s. But in the late 1990s, right, but in the late 1990s it was something that you know tech people were talking about and it entered public consciousness Mainstream public consciousness in the 2000s. Mm-hmm. And so web 2.0 is the interconnectivity of things Right or home appliances being connected to the internet Getting your phone service through the internet. You know all of these the the massive expansion of the internet itself moving from just being you know a set of desktop computers and and and

mainframes talking to each other to all kinds of devices and mainframes talking to each other to all kinds of devices being connected to one another for a whole host of reasons. Not the least of which being commerce. Well, the majority, biggest reason of it being commerce. But, you know, all kinds of shit going on, like behind the scenes as part of Web 2.0. In 2001, the iPod had been introduced. And MP3 files had become a new medium for distribution of and listening to music. And this is the time

period when we see all the controversy surrounding Napster and the according industry, and the recording industry, like completely overreacting and turning themselves into this gigantic villain by slapping fines on people for downloading Happy Birthday. And Lars Ulrich, in particular also James Headfield, but mostly Lars Ulrich, in particular also James Headfield, but mostly Lars Ulrich revealing himself themselves as being just Titanic privilege dassholes.

Oh, yeah. Uh, for just being hugely outspoken. And I say this as a metallic of fan, like, wow. Just, you know, utterly tone deaf and in the stuff they're talking about about about Napster at this time. And the extent to which the public consciousness of the expansion of the internet during this time period is very much tied into music specifically and media specifically. Suddenly being way more widely available and this rapid change in the way people are consuming media. Yeah, I mean, especially younger folks. You don't have YouTube until 2005, but there

were plenty of video sharing websites prior to that. There was file tabby.net. There was, you know, stuff like that. And I think by 2003, yeah, 2003 was when iTunes store came in. Yes. store came in. Yes. So there's there's a lot of things. It was 2003. Yeah. Well, you know, which which is where it's solved the I part service thing. Yeah, essentially. And it became this, this is when I mean, essentially, this is the beginning of the end for music stores. As we knew them previously that iPods and you had iPods. And you had. Because now, because now everything's digital.

And, you know, that very rapidly became the medium, by which we listened to music, by which we, we, you know, acquired music. And so this, this is, and music itself is, is, you know, profoundly emotional medium, you know, you, we all have the, you know, a is there is the song that was going through my head Around the time I graduated from high school. There's the music that I remember being associated with You know the emotional state I was in after my divorce Mm-hmm. The song crazy was like a big deal around that time Sure for me anyway, and kind of engine was in heavy rotation on the radio too coincidentally.

But, you know, we all have this emotional attachment to music, and suddenly the way we were listening to our music was fundamentally changing. So there's this insecurity. there's this insecurity attached to that. And there is this change attached to that. And in the film, there is this deep seated, we see our own distrust and our own insecurity and our own fear echoed in the main character of the film, Detective Spooner, and his knee jerk distrust of robots in general, but especially, oh, hey, now they're coming out with a new generation of them.

Right. Like, you know, why do we need a new generation? What's for you know, just all of the, you know, knee jerk, you know, a Luddite kind of responses he has. Sure. Is what was kind of what was certainly present, if not dominant, but certainly present in, you know, the collective consciousness at the time. And so then the film also gets into talking about the ethics of robotics. And here I'm going to start talking about Spooner. Spooner is himself part robot.

Okay, his arm and part of his rib cage significantly portion of his body had to be reconstructed. Are we just going to skip past his name or is there a spot where you address? I would you go ahead and talk about it because yeah, so he's bringing it up. Behavioralism. Yes. You know, training things, changing over time, all that, I mean, his name is Spooner. So he has this change, but also, you know, honey represents what Spooner should be doing. And James Cromwell's character pretty much tells Spooner that by the end, you know? Oh yeah. And Vicki has been self-training herself, like she kind of self-radicalized, ultimately. Yes.

And all of this comes back to behavioralism, like stimulus response, stimulus response. And you know, if this, then this, if this then this. And the three laws lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy as it were, they lead to a self-radicalizing training. Yeah. And yeah, all of all of these things. So, um, behavioralism was BF Skinner. Oh, shit. Never mind everything I just said. I was like kicking myself becausener was like shit. Never mind everything I just said I was like kicking myself because I was like, what what what what whoa hold out you're right Skinner. Spooners the one who who reverses words. Yeah, Spooners and God damn it. Okay, never mind. I mean that would have been cool,

but it's not true. Okay, but now, but now he brought that up. So there's a story I have to share. A friend of mine and his wife are adorable. They've been married for over two decades and they're still gooey with each other. It's cute. When they were first dating, one of the kind of, you know, little couple games that they used to play was that they would throw spoonerisms at each other. And at one point, they the pastry cabinet at Starbucks. And she saw carrot bun cake. And without thinking she turned to my friend.

Sure. And and spoonerized. Carrot bun cake into a barrette, anyway. And loudly. Yeah. And then watched as everyone in line turned to look at them and blushed to her toes apparently. But anyway, so yeah, that's spooner,

as opposed to Skinner, who is behaviorism, which by the way, here's the thing. Here's the thing, That's actually a really good point. And in a way, I almost want to give you credit for spooner being really close to skin or because of all of that. Nope. Done. I might be right. That's awesome. But yeah, no, sad. You know what? This is along the lines of me recognizing that ounces is abbreviated OZ. Yeah. Like, that doesn't mean that it was done on purpose.

Yeah, I know. So, yeah. So, uh, so Spooner, the detective, is part robot. Uh-huh. Uh, he has, he has a, uh, a prosthetic limb, and, you know, significantly reconstructed parts on that side of his body. But he has this huge phobic bias against robots. And yet he's surrounded by reminders of his own inadequacy, because the robots are whole. Yes. But things having to do with him or not. Yes his ceiling fan has a broken blade

Oh, yeah, yeah, and he spends time looking at it because I remember going like well, it's with the kernel Kurt shit here Yeah, yeah, no see the thing is there are so many parts of this movie that you look at details And you're like oh my god, that's over and brilliant. And then they give you intellectual blue balls and they leave you hanging and they don't fucking do anything with it. Now, the character development of Spooner is awesome. And that is one of the threads where they actually do manage to carry through. Yes. And now the thing is the reason for those of you who haven't seen the film and presumably aren't going to because I'm about to spoil it for you. The root of his distrust of robots is that the robot that saved his life chose to save him

over a little girl. There's a car accident. Yes. His police vehicle and another vehicle went into the lake because it's Chicago. Right. And he's in the car looking deeper into the water at the little girl sinking. And a robot jumps jumps into the water and immediately runs and cuts his seat belt and pulls him out. Right. But in the process his arm is destroyed basically.

Right. But in the process, his arm is destroyed, basically. Yes. And he, in the whole time, he's trying to tell the robot, don't save me, get her, get her, get her. Right. And so the robot's decision to save him, number one, instills this incredible level of survival guilt in him. Yep.

And it leads to a really meaningful question about the moral calculus that led to him being the one saved because in his head, I'm a cop. So he was fearing for his life? Maybe not. And he needed to shoot the girl. Well, okay, he's an idealized cop. Okay. And so as the hero of the story, his outlook is,

I signed up for this. Yeah. Yeah. That is idealized. You're right. That must be in the future. Yeah. Or an alternate universe.

But in his head, you know what? Fuck it. Let the robots take over them. I'm down. I'm down. We're done. There we go. No, but in his head, I for one welcome armatella over Lord.

Yes. I know. Like, but in his head. I for one welcome armatella go over Lord. Yes, I know like, but in his head, I signed up for this. Right. Like like I'm an acceptable casualty. If that innocent little girl gets saved, right. The robots calculus is I can save you. I have a I have a 90. I don't remember what the percentage is are, but it's like I have, I have a high percentage of succeeding at saving you. If I try to save the little girl, you're going to the top. It's like 16% and she and I only have a 16% chance of saving her. So according to the laws of robotics, you're the one I got to save because I can get you to the surface

and save you. That's 100% I've saved the life I've done what I can do Yeah, and that's it and that moral calculus stinks to him Yes, he says something like you know, but no person would ever make that yeah no human would make that decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah um And so in 2004 as I mentioned, we were using drones extensively, and I've been a stand in Iraq as part of the global war on terror. And the logic behind it was, you know, if it was the Bush doctrine, preemptive striking,

if you could slaughter an entire wedding full of people so that you can justify invading a country, expose facto about weapons of mass destruction. Don't you have a duty to do so? And sure enough. But no, I mean, you know, as sarcastic and as awful as being about that, that is basically the doctrine of the Ampestrike if you can kill like two, sorry about those two innocent people that died next to the terrorist, but there's a taking time. Right. And if we need to torture, if we need torture, let's do that. Yeah, you know, it's that kind of 24 logic. Well, yeah, it's going at the time, by the way, Jesus. Yeah, 24 was running at the time. Yep. So there's, so there's that that level of

logic. There's also the idea of we're going to fight them over there rather than over here. Yep. And there was a recurring theme during the time period running all the way up to now, was a recurring theme during the time period, running all the way up to now within the genre. And even within, within non-science fiction kind of media, about, you know, where is the line? Where do we draw the line for AI-driven war machines? Like, like we have it right now, we have human pilots making these decisions, we have humans overseeing what's going on. Right. But there's always a push for, well, you know,

if we can automate this, we'll make it more efficient, we'll make it more effective. Right. But there's also the risk of more collateral damage, more, you know, instant casualties, et cetera, et cetera. And how, where, you know, there's this constant tension about where is the ethical place to draw that line. You know, it's interesting too, because in 2004, Karen Travis came out with the first Republic Commando book. Yes. Where they start talking about the morality of having wet droids, which is what they call the clones.

So you've got one side they're using all drones, or basically droids. And it's acceptable. But on this side, you've got clones. So that's living tissue. That's literally wouldn't exist where it not for this war. And these people didn't have a choice. They were made for this, literally made for this. So isn't that still more moral than drafting other people's kids? And the answer

is yes it is. But it doesn't mean it's not troublesome. Yeah. And it and it and she dives deep into that and into the culture of that. Yeah. And and what that does to the soldiers because they're also only 10 year old boys. They have the bodies of 20 year olds because they've been accelerated growth. So now you get really into like the morality of it. And I would still say that that is a more moral choice than drafting your son or my children into a war. Okay, I'm gonna take this on a complete fucking tangent.

Okay. Because I... And you wrote that in 10 fucking tangent. Okay. Because I- And I should wrote that to him before. Having that read the Republic Commando series. Okay. What you're saying about them being accelerated. Uh-huh. And they're effectively ten-year-old boys.

Yep. Um, in, um, the Macross film and OVA and what became the Robotech TV series here in the United States The Zen trotty I Know that I okay good. I got that reference. Yes Thank you. Thank you Captain Rogers. They were the bad guys. Yes, they were there's one of them that works with the Robotech team or something. Actually several of them. Okay, cool. One of one of the one of the Zen trotty warlords basically has a change of heart. Okay. And and realize this that he's there's kind of on the wrong side and switches to help humanity. Okay. Breety. Bad ass motherfucker. Okay. Breitye.

Bad ass motherfucker. So the thing is, the Zen trotty are a cloned army who were created by the Robotech masters, who themselves don't show up until the second series in Robotech and aren't actually associated at all with, and I'll have to do an episode on Robotech versus the source material at some point. But anyway, so the Zen trotty are clones. The average Zen trotty warrior is four years old. And he's 20 feet tall, right?

Because they've not only figured out how to create clones, they figured out how to jigantize them. And it is a plot point within the macross story that their leaders are the warriors who managed to survive and live for a couple hundred years and have been through every single battle. But literally every experience they have is tied to being a warrior. They have no culture. They have no music. They have no art. The culture is war. Yeah. And so they encounter humanity. And Lynn Minme shows up. And they're like, what is this? And it's a recurring thing within all the macro series of like a news and trotty fleet shows up because there's thousands of them throughout the galaxy. It's a

thing. And we throw human culture at them and their gobsmacked and they don't know what to do. And we immediately get half of them going like, okay, fuck this. I'm joining you guys. And then the other half like, you know, retreat into fuck this, I'm joining you guys. And then the other half, like, you know, retreat into into their shell and are, you know, completely, completely shell-shocked by it and they want to do. You know, it's interesting that all of the clones in Star Wars are straight up clones of Django Fett. And this never occurred to me until I made a parallel with the Zen Trati. But there was a trend of warlord. Yeah, they're straight up clones of Django Fett. None of them are female. No. The Zen Trati are strictly divided by sex into Zen Tran, who are biologically male,

into Zen-Tran, who are biologically male, and Mel-Tran, who are biologically female. Gotcha. And the Robotech masters have inculcated and encouraged within them a distrust bordering on loathing between the two groups. So it's actually a big deal in macros when the assembled Zen trotty forces see an image of a human man and a human woman kissing each other.

It blows their minds. Right. You know, because all weight, what? And yeah, so some days I'll have to do a Republic Commando you really will and you know what and parallel with that. I mean, I have to do something about Macross because there's there's a lot to dig into there right and So but we but we have this example in getting back to what we're talking about this episode We have trolleyism essentially, both with robots. But with robots. And so in the end of our movie in 2004, we kind of can't get away from the fact that the robot is a murderer.

Like in the end, the verdict is, oh yeah, no, Sonny actually did kill him Like his creator told him to do it As a way to get the detective on the case so they'd be able to stop Vicky from taking over the world But the robot is still a killer and and Like I don't know I don't know what to do with that. Like on the one hand, again, it's sympathetic. On the other hand, he did it. And there's, and there's an underlying level of distrust of technology and, and fear of the ethics of that that's involved. And this is kind of a rejoinder in a way, and again, this is one of the reasons why I'm disappointed in how this movie turned out.

This is kind of a rejoinder to what Asimov wrote in the laws of robotics. This is like whoever it was who's writing the script, like had ambitions to want to really do something meaningful with this, but wasn't given enough screen time to develop any of it. Because this is this is a rejoinder to Asimov, because Asimov said, these are the three laws of robotics.

And this is going to protect this is going to make it. This is a safeguard so that robots aren't going to wind up doing all of these things that in the genre previously, you know, robots have eliminated humanity and, you know, the planet is ruled by, you know, the humanity's extinct. We were destroyed by the robots, all this kind of stuff had shown up in the genre before. And as well as like, well, okay, here's how to solve that. Right.

We just program them not to fucking do it. Here you go. And whoever this writer was, and I should have looked up, you know, enough of the credits, know this. But but in the end, this was also kind of a group project. So it'd be hard to know who was trying to do it. But there, there is a response to that that is like, well, okay, but you made this one the first law. Right.

You got to protect people and you can't allow them to be harmed through inaction. And if you have a sufficiently big AI that can look at the human condition enough, they're going to realize, or they're going to come to the conclusion, I can't leave these monkeys in charge of themselves. That was fifth element shit too. Yeah, well, yeah, seven years earlier. You know, and so there's this interesting response to Asimov that's part of this, but I don't feel like it gets enough oxygen. Sure, yeah, because it's too much an action movie.

Yeah, yeah. It's an action movie that slips into being smart too much. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if I'd even say too much, but yeah, it slips into being smart.

And so, and I want to talk a little bit, because that's most of what I have to say. But before we finish it, I want to talk a little bit about Will's most of what I have to say, but I'm before before we finish it. I want to talk a little bit about Will Smith as Spooner. Okay. Because I think this is an important thing too. And I'm not 100% certain, like these, these are notes that like this occurred to me and I kind of put this together, but I'm not, I'm not sure where this goes after it gels.

Okay. But I, but I feel like it needs to be brought up. First off, there are echoes of veterans of the global war on terror. Oh, yeah. As a character, obviously, he's clearly suffering from PTSD. There's a scene where he's clearly wrestling with suicidal ideation. He has a prosthetic limb as a constant reminder of the traumatic event that gave it to him.

And so in 2004, this was a big new development because of the Iraq war and our involvement in Afghanistan. We had, we went from living in a country where we had a huge big military that hardly went anywhere, you know, for its size to all of a sudden, we had lots of people being overseas and lots of people coming back, being permanently marked by their experiences. Yeah. And like so there's so there's all of that going on. The other thing that's interesting and this is this is it's really really tied to the time period is this is a Will Smith vehicle. Yeah. And Spooner is not only a black character, because he's played by Will Smith. He is coded as black.

Yes. There's a significant sum plot in the film involving the character's mother getting a household robot. Right. Spooner is pissed about it because it doesn't trust him. And there's this moment of betrayal to him. Right. When his mother hands him a pie, And there's this moment of betrayal to him. Right.

When his mother hands him a pie, specifically a sweet potato pie. Yeah. Which he immediately digs into with relish. And she tells him it wasn't made by her. It was made by her new robot following her recipe and techniques. And if I remember correctly, puts the pie down and you can't touch it after that. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's just like, okay, no, no robots can't do it. Right. And but but everything in that scene leading up to that and through it because it's doing the, and I don't know if this is a trope, but it fucking should be.

It's doing the, the black guy is the racist in this movie. Now we can handle understanding racism. Yeah, because we don't, we don't have to look at a white person being that way. Right. We're going to, we're going to save all the fragile white egos, the audience. We're not, it's a discussion. Because we're not accusing anybody of being racist by having a white character be racist. Right. It's a discussion that I was having with a friend of the show Gabriel Cruz about how many movies and TV shows had that as the main

TV shows had that as the main foray into. Yeah, because it was always like, I mean, it was TV shows in the 80s and 90s, especially. I was like, oh yeah. But you were really the racist. You know, it's, yeah. And that was the only palatable way was, you know, Dylan couldn't be a racist and Brendan couldn't be a racist

and Brenda couldn't be a racist. Yeah. Ellie couldn't be a racist and Brendan couldn't be a racist and Brenda couldn't be a racist. Ellie couldn't be a racist. But the black family moved next door, they could be the ones that were. They totally could be. Yeah. Like. So. But yeah, and this satisfies that in a lot of ways. And this and this totally and he's black coded. And I do not think that those two things could, you couldn't have one without the other for that movie to work. No, I think you're correct. I definitely think you're right. And the identity of the character, this isn't just an issue, again, this isn't just an issue

of the character being played by Will Smith, who is black. And it could, parts of it could be that it's Will Smith embodying the character. And so the blackness of the character is a core part of his identity. And this is noteworthy because as much as this isn't a classic of Western cinema, it was made with the budget and intentions of a tent pole blockbuster. And it made over $350 million worldwide with an action hero protagonist a thoroughly core identity black man. Bush beat Kerry in 2004. Yeah. Because global war on terror and swish boat veterans. Yeah. And bullshit. But in June of, but in June.

I'm sorry, an election that should have been about a war in southwest Asia Instead was about a war in Southeast Asia decades beforehand. Yeah, where the guy who avoided service was the patriot and the guy who served Was the coward. Yeah, I know like what the fuck had to insert that. Yeah, I know. I yes You did and and it some animals have to be dropped. Yes. But in June of that year, in June of 2004, a 42 year old senator from Illinois gave a speech at the DNC that catapulted him to national prominence and led to him being elected president in 2008. Yes, I'm talking about Barack Obama. Yes. I do not think that Will Smith being who Will Smith was in 2004. And Barack Obama becoming this central figure on the American political stage

figure on the American political stage are not somehow connected to something that was going on in the American zit guys at the time. Yeah, like my concern. I'm going to argue that this is the beginning of the wave of I don't want to say progressiveness because we weren't really getting more progressive because as you've said before Obama was essentially chocolate next to it. But there was something going on in the national psyche in the United States that made it possible for Will Smith to be, as you said, you know, number one or close to number one box office draw highest office in the country. And I think that by itself is a remarkable artifact of its time. Because then we get into the second Obama administration and the backlash.

Sure. Like the first Obama administration, there was backlash. Second Obama administration, the backlash turned into like a complete catastrophic crazy pants fucking shit. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, uh, know, I think that was, you know, holdovers from Palin and her relationship to make money grifting this way. Oh, yeah. No, I totally agree. And and and that then, you know, led to that wave that I'm talking about of whatever it was in the national psyche or in the national national zitgeist, whatever you want to call it, then crashing. And us now having to deal with the after effects or the not even after effects, the ongoing white supremacist backlash from it. Oh, yeah. I mean, the amount of hate groups that rose is astounding. As astounding as it is disturbing.

Yeah. Yeah. And infuriating. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I think that's the last note that I want to bring up is this was a big movie. Like I said, it made 350 million. Right. And it is putting aside everything I have to say about all the high concept stuff that left me just absolutely frustrated. At the end of the movie, like, you bring out a shit up, you don't, like go anywhere with it.

But leaving all of that aside, this is a this is a tent pole blockbuster summer film. Yeah. That has Will Smith as its incontrovertible lead. Yeah, yeah. And he's in the role that a generation before would have been Arnold Schwarzenegger or Bruce Willis or one of those guys sure sure, you know and and You know, I think I think that by itself says something about where We were as a society in 2004 and I don't think We're going to see a movie as big as this one with a black lead in it right now.

Well, I'm because, you know, because Hollywood wants to make money. You know, that I don't disagree with you, but I would point out by 2004 when this came out, he was a proven entity. Again, the mid 90s were his mid 90s were there. You know, and then he has stayed in the public consciousness, maybe not hitting as huge as he always has, but he did Gemini man just before COVID hit, I want to say. That's true. And that didn't do as well, I think partly because of COVID. But in 2007, he did I am legend. Absolutely is a proven draw. Now he's also getting older and I don't see anybody else stepping in the way that he stepped in in the 90s So I don't disagree with your conclusion. I do I do think I'm taking a different

Whipple with the logic. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The the A plus B. Yeah, I think because I think also with Jordan Peel directing things and being such a hot hand. And if you remember before he died, Chadwick Boseman was killing it. He was in all kinds of shit. That's true. The thing was, the thing is, the system has changed quite a bit too, because you have the juggernaut that is Disney. And so you have Marvel movies as a genre. And so- This is what the blessing and her curse. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And it is a game changer. It's a disruptor if nothing else. And so Chadwick Boseman, the amount of movies he did in his short time here with us is astounding.

But a lot of the audience that would go see Black Panther didn't go see his other things. This is true. And I, again, I think with the fracturing of the media and we've talked about this a number of times. Oh, yeah. I don't know that you get movie stars anymore. Uh, as, as, or a big box office draws like Will Smith in the summer of 96 97, I think 98 as well. I think 95. Um, yeah, that's interesting. That's, that's

I hadn't thought of that. But especially post COVID, we might never see. Yeah, that kind of big blockbuster movie star. Yeah. You know, it's even Robert Downey, Jr. The amazing job that he did is Iron Man. Yeah. He wasn't the draw. Iron Man was the draw. Yes. Actors aren't the draw. Actors attached to really cool shit is the draw is the yeah, that makes sense. But I attached to really cool shit is the draw. Is the, yeah, that makes sense. But I can't, you know, the only person I think that would be the draw would maybe still be Will Smith.

Like he needs to hide out a little bit longer. A little bit longer. I, yeah. But I think, I think part of his rehab will be that because you know, when, when Mel Gibson came back, it was a fart in church like Nobody nobody nobody cursed it, but nobody was like, oh my god. This is he's back baby You know, it was like it was seven years Ricky Jervais made a joke about it. We all moved on yeah And I think Will Smith for a rehab tour he might be the one that's still a draw, but we cannot

think of anybody else who is still, who is a draw on their, on their own. On that same level. And he might not be because Gemini man didn't. I think he has a chance because there will be a, oh, he's back feeling. Yeah. But even Denzel Washington, who is another amazing actor, who also is black.

But he hasn't really been a draw for a while either. He's been a test and close stuff. I mean, that's, that's again, but again, I think that's the age. Yes. And that's, and that's part of it is the kind of roles that you wind up putting a guy like him in. Yeah. You know, as somebody gets older, you know, you you you put them less in, unless it's Tom

Cruz, because apparently he's made a pack with a devil, right? Or what's the new or whoever and, or whoever and he just doesn't fucking age. But it was Top Gun that was the draw. I'm not trying to argue with that. But you still have that pairing that needs to happen. But I think age is a big factor. I don't think there's a undercurrent of stars because I think the systems change. So. Well, as we've talked about, it's fragmented.

You don't, you don't anymore have the, oh, hey, this guy has made this three films. Yeah. You know, these three movie theater kind of films, you have, well, you know, this person has done this thing for Netflix and this thing over here for Amazon. And they've got this movie that, you know, did pretty well, but no movie in the theater is doing that well right now because nobody's going to. If you go back and you think about who was above the bill,

the bill. Will Smith in Jim Kerry in. Um, trying to think of who else for a little bit of time, uh, they had, uh, Jamie Foxx in, um, yeah, oh, definitely Arnold, like the 80s, still in Bruce Willis. I don't even think Bruce Willis in was was the draw. I think it was the franchise. It was the franchise that made it. Yeah, for. Harrison Ford in. Yeah. But even that is, I think, after mosquito coast proved that, no, doesn't always work. Then it was back to the franchises ultimately. Yeah. And I'm trying to think of the equivalent for women of the closest I come is Hallie Berry in because she was like white hot at one point.

Yeah, for a while. And then I'm trying to think of who else. Oh, Nicholas Cage. Nicholas Cage movies were genre for a little while. See here, Nicholas Cage movies are still a genre, but they've become a cold genre. Yeah, no, they're carnival. They're a, they're a, so.

I love how he's embraced that too. Oh, good time. I'm tired of the title of his most recent film is the unbearable, the weight of unbearable talent or something. Yeah, good for him. He needs to get out of debt and this is how he's doing it. That's good. Yeah, you know, I think Brennan Frazier kissed the idea of it.

Well, Brennan Frazier got fucked over. Like, yeah, no, he did. But I'm just, I'm thinking in terms of people who were themselves draws. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's in the 80s and 90s. I like to see Brennan Frazier pull it out. He's two. I would too. Um, but he's Richard's ever so briefly. Yeah, ever so briefly. Yeah. Very brief. Yeah, the scream franchise was a franchise. Yeah. Everybody involved. John Travolta started doing stuff where John Travolta was the draw. Yeah. Jackson was a draw briefly as well. You know, nobody

should about shaft. It was because Samuel Jackson was just no one cared about snakes on the planet because he was in a Samuel Jackson. Yeah. So yeah, I'm trying to sick and tired of his motherfucking snakes on his motherfucking play. So yeah, I think you're right that we're not going to see. Yeah, I get I get your argument. Yeah. I think this is one of those rare times where I'm oddly more cynical about the reasons behind something than you are. Sure. Because like like yeah, no, it hardly ever happens. I think this is one of those places. I think I think just saying I'm not even going to talk talking about like rubber meetings road in terms of movies. I'm talking about identity politics in our society. I think the the the faction within our society who has decided that demographic shift in the United States is some kind of existential threat. I think they are so

wrapped up in that and so fucked up in that. That it would be very hard for risk-averse Hollywood executives to build a tent pole kind of movie around a lead of color right now. Yeah, no, I could, I could see that unless that person has a proven commodity. Okay. Yeah. I see what you're saying. Yeah. And, and, and I can't, and I can't, they're proven commodity. Okay. Yeah. I see what you're saying. Yeah.

And I can't, and I can't like dismiss what you're saying out of hand, but. Yeah. I don't surprise if you were right though. Yeah. No, I would be utterly unspriced. If I would be disappointed, but I would not be surprised. Right.

Right. Like I want to be wrong. I really, really want to but I would not be surprised. Right, right. No, like I want to be wrong. I really, really want to, like I would, I would dearly love to be proven wrong. Mm-hmm. But I don't think I will be. And the thing is, we're never gonna know if I'm proven right, we're never gonna know

if it's because of my reasons or your reasons. Well, somebody will hack Sony again and we'll find out. No, yeah, and we'll figure that out. Yeah, that's a good point. That's okay. Speaking of others, you know, societal trends, that's the other one. Yeah. So, okay.

So that's basically, that's everything. And, you know, I started out saying that the book is, you know, usually better than the movie, and I'm not entirely wrong. In this case, you know, the movie, and I'm not entirely wrong. In this case, the movie winds up not being as good as the book because it's trying to do too many things at once and serve too many masters. And there are moments within the movie

that are absolutely brilliant. And I will totally cheerlead for those moments within the film. But, and I enjoyed it. Like I came out of the theater like, yeah, no, that was a fun time, that was good. But there was also this part of me, there was like, goddamn it.

There was so much more that movie could have done. Sure. You know, and so for anybody who went into the film and Asimov fan, when they came out, they were disappointed. They probably had fun, but they were still disappointed. And I think we've gone over, I've done a, I hope I've done a good job of explaining.

They're using so, yeah. No, there you go. So what is your takeaway now that we're done with that? What do you think? Let's see Well that I should probably look a little closer when I'm looking at aged old behavior lists. Okay, one, so there's that. There's that. To, you know, very often the book is better than the movie because the book has the time and the space to do what the movie can't do, right? There's a different medium obviously. And sometimes the book is different enough from the movie that both of them are amazing,

but for very different reasons. For instance, Princess Bride, I cannot imagine a more perfect movie. And the book is every bit is good, but nowhere near the same. Yes. You know, it's so, that's so incredibly rare. That's, you know, and I don't know. I think that my friend Logan, who died a couple of years back, he used to say that the movie The Saint always bothered him because the movie was a great movie

that should not have had the same title as the TV show because it clearly wasn't that that character. And I think we're running into that here. I think in many ways, the movie I robot should have not used that title because it clearly didn't fulfill what I robot as a book was supposed to fulfill. And yeah, I think that that's, and I do, here's what I came away from it ultimately though, is that you do bring up a really good point that they left a lot of things on the table that could have really deep of the movie. I liked the movie quite a bit, but I think you're absolutely right. There were some really good questions that either you don't bring them up or you dive deeper into them. And this didn't either. So yeah. All right. Well, what's your reading? Well, I'm still working my way through and working my way through is the bad phrase. I'm still

through and working my way through is the bad phrase. I'm still enjoying every minute of two gun witch by a friend of the show, Bishop O'Connell, an amazing historical fantasy. And I am simultaneously, I'm like, you know, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, time wise, as I'm also reading through the memoirs of Eulissi's S. Grant. Ah, still with that too. Yes, nice. And it is a remarkable read. I would not have pegged him as being a great writer, but he truly was one. Cool. So yeah, I recommend, I very highly recommend to gun witch number one, throw, throw, uh, bishop on all, uh, some of your, some of your cash if you can. And if you are at all interested in the history of, uh, the civil war or anything leading up to it, of the Civil War or anything leading up to it, the memoirs of Eelissi this grant are a wonderful resource and an amazing read.

And then because we've been talking about it for two episodes, also the robots series by Asimov deserves your attention. Nice. If you haven't read them, and even if you have reread them, because they're good. Cool. How about you? I'm going to recommend two two things this week. Both of them are graphic novels. First one, again, friend of the show from episode 147. Tim Watts wrote a Republic as a graphic novel. You can pick it up from Empire Comics in Sacramento on Fulton Street. Look them up online, it's EmpireComics.com

and ask them for a copy and you can buy a copy there. He has not yet gotten a distributor. I'm going to keep leaning on him for that. But the other one I want to recommend is the Life of Frederick Douglass, the graphic novel of it. And it's essentially his autobiography, the narrative of a slave journey from Baudenshire Freedom. It's first book that he wrote, but in graphic novel form. And I am a big fan. If you've not read Frederick Douglass, if you've not read a lot of the slave narratives and stuff like that, then start with a graphic novel because

I'm a big believer that you start with a graphic novel and work your way over to the book because then you know the story so that when you're in the book, you don't feel lost. And it's yeah, and it's it's a really good visual medium book. I mean, you really you get the tone of voice of what people are speaking in by the pictures. you get the tone of voice of what people are speaking in by the pictures. Okay. And I like that a lot. And also you can see the deprivation that he describes in his book. So I highly recommend that as well. So those will be the two that are. All right. Sounds good. Where can people find you if they want to find you. Um, well, number one, not if I find you first.

Good point. Number two, um, on social media, if you're looking for me, I can be found at Mr. underscore Blalock on TikTok. Uh, you won't find very much there. Um, I can be found at ehblalock on Twitter. And we collectively can be found on the Twitter machine at Geek History of Time. It is worth noting that that is a good place to go to if you find that we have gotten anything wrong. And you want to shout at us. We are there. Since you have found us, you are listening to us right now.

Obviously you have either found us on the Apple podcast app or on Stitcher. Either way, whatever you've done, please subscribe and give us the Five-Star rating that you know we deserve for all of the time that we've put into all of this. And hopefully for keeping you entertained for the length of time that we have. And how about you? Where can you be found, sir? You could find me at the Harmony on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also find me. Let's see. By the time this drops, let's say October 7th, you can find me on October 7th at Luna's cafe in Sacramento doing a capital punishment with my new partner, Justine Lopez. It'll have been our second show by that point. So come on down $10. I strongly encourage masks, but you must bring proof of vaccination and would love to see you there. All right. Well, for a history of time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blalock. And until next time, keep rolling 20s.