A Geek History of Time - Episode 192 - In a Perfect World Punk Wouldn't Exist Part II

Episode Date: January 7, 2023

BELLS Blow in her face and she'll follow you anywhere. You are destroying the Constitution of the United States may God have mercy on your souls. Good day. Yes. It's a sad thing. We could be saying that we just elected the right white man to power. That's creepy but that's a different category of creepy. Zizuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and find out what the fuckin' truth that man is trying to get at. Like with most episodes I can bring him back to wrestling. Right, well he's got other people who work for him who also do things

and they can get new take-out, human size into smaller worlds after all. Fuck you. I still don't give a shit about getting fake property in a fantasy game. Aduc, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia, aia This is a geek history of time. Where we connect nerdery to the real world. My name is Ed Blalock. I'm a world history and English teacher here in Northern California. And just yesterday, I started then kind of a crummy mood. I was actually about to shank somebody at a

pizza because they grabbed my drink when it came up. And like on the outwardly, my response was, excuse me, that's mine. Inwardly, the response was something more akin to mother fucker. You better put that, you know, like I was, I was in in one of those modes where I was just waiting for somebody to pick a fight. And then I got to school. And my, my flex class, um, finished building lightsabers, and went out onto the quad and spent, I got to spend 15 minutes trying,

and I think maybe a little bit succeeding, to teach them something about form, while they proceeded to just wail on each other with pool noodles that had been turned with duct tape with lightsabers. And as a way to improve one's mood on each other with bull noodles that had been turned with duct tape and lights and and say way to improve one's mood on a on a shitty morning. I cannot recommend very many things more highly than that.

It was it was pretty goddamn cool. That's nice. And and there was a really best part of it was after after the flex class was over. Hearing the passing period. I had kids coming up to me going, what was that? What were they doing? Well, that was my lightsaber combat class reflect.

And I sign up next time. All right. All right. OK, cool. This is going well. OK. All the young Pato wants us to learn lightsaber combat at some point.

Yes. So yeah, so that's what I've had going on. How about you? Who are you? What have you had going on? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I'm a Latin and US history teacher up here in Northern California. And just tonight, matter of fact, my son has a bad habit of not drying off his hair when

he gets out of the shower because he likes to slick it down. And he likes the way that that looks. And that's fine. I'm not a kid. But I messed up his hair on purpose so that it would dry a little more because it's freaking cold out. And then I brushed it just kind of finger brushed it to the side. And I was like, oh my God, you look handsome.

You look a couple years older already, you know, because he's recently turned 13 and his response was, and you look like an idiot. Which was so cute. Oh, right. So that's, uh, yeah, it was awesome. So we're able to find the aloe vera. Yeah, it was awesome. So we're able to find the all of their I just let it burn. I like that in my home. It is pretty safe to just like lightly roast your father, you know, it just as it should be, you know, yeah, like the dad who gets angry about respect all the time is never fun. No, and not one. Really. It's that that's fear not respect and definitely look into the difference. You call me certainly graduate from high school. So and as folks

can probably hear, we have a third party because you remember last week, or last episode, rather, we talked about punk rock and we brought in an expert since I know nothing and Ed knows about that much as well. So, Sir, could you please introduce yourselves and tell us about your week? Yeah, I am Jason, Jason B, the voice actor voice actor comedian and apparently punk rock aficionado. Um, I'm, I'm moving to Bisbee, Arizona on Friday. That's what's going on with me. Oh, I mean, the fam is packing up and moving to a little weirdo city in the middle of the desert.

Nice. Um, is that what county is that? I don't know. Okay. It's like 10 minutes north of the border, north of the Mexican border. Oh, wow. Like by Agua Prieta, I think. Okay.

And no galeists. But anyway, it's a cool little area. Doug Stan hopes my neighbor. Oh, okay. I didn't realize he had land out. It's a weird little like art weirdo town. I don't know how else to describe it. Like the whole place is just full of street art and quirky houses. And it was one of the first like engineered communities in the in like the Western United

States is for a mining a little mining town, but there's no mining there now. So it's just like a little, like it's a hippie artist town, kind of, I guess. How long has it been, how long has it been like a hippie artist kind of community? I think since like the 70s, okay, I track. I just, I just looked it up on Google, looks pretty cute. Yeah, looks neat. Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's a little kitschy. Yeah, place. Cool. neat. Like I would imagine there's cupid dolls and sand.

Probably, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. So cool. Well, when last, oh, go on. There's definitely a wall somewhere that's just like completely plastered with stucco and pool beads or some shit and aquarium beads, you know, yeah. Like odd wind chimes made of hubcaps kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I made a wall out of a billion beer bottles and now people stop when they're driving through town.

Hey, you know, whatever you got to do for the hustle. Yeah. It's the upside to the dystopian future that we're all going to live in. And you're going to have some cool art. Um, which do you? So I want by, I want by slab city on my birthday weekend. And that was very, I mean, that's the dystopia in itself. What is that place? Um, slab city is an abandoned city in Southern California. They poured slabs, foundations for houses, and then abandoned the project. It's like something like 15 square miles, but people just fucking, there's RV communities out there. People name their own streets, and it's been out there so long, the post office delivers there now.

They have like bars and shops, but it's all under the table. You can walk into a, you walk into a bar there, and be like, how much for a beer, and they'll look at you and be like, I don't know what you got. Like, wow, it's that kind of why I went to a bar there with Lisa on my birthday. And there were more dogs than people at the bar. Nice. Nice. And they're all stray. There were just dogs fucking running around this place. Wow. That's. You got to is it? Do you think it's the weather that draws the communities? I mean, you don't have to pay for you. I don't know. It's a mixed community too. Because some of the people out there, you'll see like, you know, they set up a bar and they run a little business and they make art and then you'll drive another block down the road and you'll see some guy Talking to the burned out veneer and a meth lab that exploded in an RV, you know, just mumbling to himself. So there's like the whole spectrum of desert

weirdos out there. Sure. Oh, wow. Yeah. I'm just I'm trying to filter that through my my love of like cold weather. And I'm thinking I haven't seen many communities that do that in the cold weather. That's a complete that that's a complete filter, I think that's, that's a stopper. Yeah. Yeah. That's a plug. That's not. Yeah. Yeah. I think if you showed them a picture of snow out there, they'd look, they'd scratch their head. Yeah. That's crazy. Well, okay. So when last we spoke, um, you had left us off in the 90s and had left us with a very disturbing image that the sex pistols were in fact a boy band, but also that, I mean,

we were kind of in the early to mid 90s, which I found fascinating as it as a place to leave off because so many times our podcast does the same thing. The mid 90s, you were talking about Street punk and raves. We touched on that. Which it pinged in me in between episodes that the 90s were this odd time of the economy had already picked up, but it's almost like the people hadn't caught up to it. And certain business hadn't caught up to it either. For instance, baseball nearly went extinct in the mid-90s. There was a strike which Damneur killed it, but also it was on the wane. And then professional wrestling, you had two companies that almost went bankrupt. And then you had what else am I leaving

out? Oh, the deep space nine episodes about the Gabriel Bell riots, which we've done a watch along, predicting based on the homelessness in Santa Monica in the 90s at this same time, you also had what else do we have? Marvel and DC almost go bankrupt as well in the mid 90s, which is interesting because by then the economy had picked back up and yet these places are almost like ready to fold as a training indicator. It was very, very strange. Well, arguably the economic peak of like American life was the 90s. There's always hysteresis. There's the sine wave of how's the start market doing? What does employment look like? What does all you know, all this stuff look like?

As that wave rises, there are like you said, Damien, there's all these, you know, other trailing factors or trailing indicators. I think it's also worth noting that a big part of what happened in the 90s with the economic upturn, yes, lots of people were getting re-employed. There was unemployment dropped, but a lot of the jobs that were being created were in the bottom income wrong. It was a lot of low-level service sector kind of employment. It wasn't, you know, while everybody's gone back to working, you know, 40-hour

plus overtime, union pay, job factory, which had been the basis of the previous waves of prosperity that the US had experienced in the wake of World War II. You know, it was a new kind of economic upturn that left a whole bunch of people behind. Yeah, it was a very corpertist kind of, again, like you said, it was, it was minimal jobbing, instead of, uh, well paying jobs. And because I'm just thinking about John Major is, is taking over in Britain in about 1990. And I think he holds sway until 97. And you had the Bush Clinton switch. And so Clinton, who is the ultimate

centrist leftist corporate Democrat as it were. And he is constricting the social safety net so that more people fall off of it while that's going in. And he even, his slogan was, it's the economy stupid. But he absolutely, like he was constricting welfare. You know, he called it reform, but I mean, he was freezing a lot of people out. And so now they have to go get low paying jobs

that don't feed their families and they don't qualify anymore. So there's- And don't provide benefits. Yeah, the thing like a phrase, it's the economy stupid as you can move the comma anywhere you want. Yeah That's a good point and you're still correct. So yeah, yeah So that's all happening and it reminds me of something that you said last episode

Jason which was and I wrote it down because it was really good. In a perfect world, punk rock doesn't exist. And so there's this resurgence that happens in the 90s because it is nowhere near a perfect world. Yeah, yeah. So there's that economic upturn, but I think it's very marginal. Not everyone experienced the effects of that. And the people who didn't were really left behind. It was almost like a trailing

of the reganomics, the same thing that people were pissed about in the 80s. They were still pissed about in the 90s. It was just a different flavor. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where we left off. Why don't you pick us back up? You were talking about street punk and stuff like that. So how does this story continue? So yeah, in the early 90s, you had like, there was the street punk came up, what really made punk blow up in the 90s and have a revival was the pop punk. Pop really popped culture, bought into punk rock. It just became marketable because you had a couple of bands.

Pop punk had always been around. There had always been bands playing melodic punk music that you sing to, but that still was too far off from what record executives thought they could sell. But at some point in 1994, record labels got together and four bands dropped albums that year. No FX dropped an album the offspring dropped their album green day dropped an album and blink when 82 dropped an album right and All those dropping at once were extremely successful and that basically created the explosion of pop punk That you we know today. There's a million bands. They just had was that they remember us or when we were young tour or whatever sure so That kind of created revival for all the other subgenres of punk. So then after that, you see in the mid to late 90s, street punk kind of comes back

and even like an arco punk comes back. And then there's crust punk had a really big revival after that train hopping got really popular again. Kind of like right arounds. When they had the G8 in Seattle, I want to say, so 98 97, 98 right around that. I was 98. Yeah. I mean, if you watch the footage of those protests, you never seen so many

spiked and studded punks and black throwing bricks at cops, right? It was like black block before black block was black block. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. But that became that movement became huge again, especially train hopping. Got really big in the mid to late 90s again. See a lot of punk rockers hop and trains and just you know, throwing their lives to the wind. Unfortunately, with that comes a lot of like, you know, doing heroin and smoking crack in a band in buildings and shit. Cause that's just, that's in on that path. Those things are all there.

Those are flowers on that path to be picked. So we're seeing, so what you're saying? I mean, we're seeing something like what we saw with country music in the 30s. Definitely. Yeah. You got your, your whole boys. Yeah. And, yeah, you got your whole boys. Yeah, and yeah, the same thing, there's these kids, they're disenfranchised, the only job they can get

is flipping a burger, they don't wanna do that. They got no hopes for college, because they hated school. So they say, yeah, they say, you know, fuck it, I'll go jump on a train, I'll go somewhere else. I'll go somewhere else, yeah, I'll travel. And then, you know, there's enough of those people at the time between squat houses and trains that these people knew each other.

There's a thing called a crew change. You can get from the train yard, which tells you the times that the trains come and go and the crews change. And that's where you can find a time to run through the train yard, hop into an empty car before it pulls away and takes you to the next town. A crew change is worth something in like the crust punk community with these train hoppers. If you, if you need a guy with a crew change, he'll get drinks all night from the other guys

who want it, who want that information from him. That's valuable data. Is you have to, you have to steal them or you have to find a trial, you have to know a real worker who will give you a copy of the schedules. Oh wow. So I'm thinking just to my own experience, because I was a teenager at this time,

and it was walling at Creek, so they didn't have punks. They had kids dressed up as cowboys though, it was weird. Okay. But, they're because of the weird town. It is, it is.

It's if Orange County moved north, but the thing I was gonna bring up is twofold. One, in the early 90s, boys to men were immensely popular. The thing I was going to bring up is twofold one. In the early 90s, boys to men were immensely popular. I remember. Yeah. And that was really menacing. It was their respectability that ultimately was what made them worry some to the parents.

This is right at the time where CDs start to become more affordable too. And so there were a lot of posters of voice to men up in kids' rooms. And then you get to 94 and you get the Swedish synth music coming over, the pop music coming over, Ace of Base and stuff like that. Rockset.

Yep, although they've been there early, they've been around for a while. Yeah. But, uh, you get the Swedish, uh, invasion as it were. And then you also get, which has some West Indies roots, by the way. Um, and then, uh, you also get the pop punk. Like you said, the big foreign in 94. And so now you've got posters of white people that can be up in kids rooms again, and it's less threatening to the parents. This is something I noticed in in Wallet Creek. And I wonder how much pop punk was a safer edgeness for white suburban parents. Oh, so much so. Yeah. That was, pop punk was, you know, they took the, uh, the gritty rebellion in danger of punk, which was originally, uh,

almost an adult youth culture, you know, yeah, and turned it into something that you're, that your 13 year old can do instead of your 17 year old, you're worried about your 17 year old doing this. Now you're, you're glad you're 13 year olds at the blink 182 show. You do know they're there. Yeah. Well, you're glad you're glad they're at a blink 182 show and not a, um, I don't damn it. What was iced teas? Uh, body, body count. Body count. Yeah. Yeah. Your dad is not going to see body count exactly. Yeah. I went to actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The punks were big fans of the body count Oh, yeah cop killer that was that was that won the community What was what was one of his other ones?

The album there goes the neighborhood KKK bitch KKK bitch is a great song Mm-hmm. That's about met you having a white girl suck your dick and how much her dad hates it because he's in the clan. What? I love iced tea. So okay, so they're they're benefiting from the the lower price point of CDs and the more acceptability of the the frontman wearing white t-shirts and not much else as opposed to boys to men kind of being sexy or another bad creation growing up or you know there's several bell-biv-de-vo and stuff like that. Yeah, so imagine how how confusing it must have been for like the father of a 14 year old white boy to see sexy black men

and his son's bedroom. And he doesn't know what he might be a little racist. He might be a little homophobic. And either of these are issues for his son. He just likes this fucking musical group. Right. This dad is just blown away with confusion that doesn't make he doesn't even need to have the dad goes and gets his fair faucet poster out and it's like, here's son, you need this. Yeah. And this is all this is all because dad doesn't still isn't quite aware that that poster made him feel funny. Yeah. That's real. So. So, oh, and the other thing I was going to point out was and, and, and help me on this one.

So I, again, Walnut Creek would go up to Ashland, Oregon for Shakespeare Festival and stuff like that because they did theater shockingly enough. And I noticed the same gathering of homeless kids were up there. Like I'd seen them in the park a few months earlier in Wallet Creek. And now they're up in the park in Lithia Park in Ashland, Oregon. It's literally the same people I went and hung out with them one afternoon in between plays because like, oh, shit, I just saw you guys. How you doing? How'd you get up here? And there's a lot of hitching going on, but also trains and stuff like that. But there, there seems

to be a loop that people would get on to. Oh, yeah, there's circuits that people take. And yeah, once you learn, once you learn the route, like I said, yeah, there's people who know the routes and then you get a group together and you and all your buddies know how to get this way in that way. And I said, what, that information is valuable. If you have good info on, on train routes, you can actually, you know, you can get drinks or drugs or food or, shall, what have you, what you need to get through your little life. And so punk traveled that way.

Huh? And so punk traveled that way as well. Like, oh, for sure, yeah. Okay. Especially like, a lot of times, a lot of the punk travel things started to in like the 80s, because they developed circuits with each other. You know, they'd find people where they could put on shows all across the country. And these guys would just connect with each other. They'd be like, you know, Joey shit head up in Canada can get you a gig

in Calgary. And then you go down to Seattle and, you know, Mikey Piss pants or you know, all punk guys in the 80s had terrible names. And and they they just, you know, it was all about just networking with friends basically and all these guys had new hundreds of other punks and bands and, you know, they just helped each other out making it that was, you know, they avoided corporate culture pretty well. For the most part, which is harder to do now. Sure. Sure. Sure.

Punk needs to reset and go back to playing at houses and VFWs and shit like the old days to get the flavor back. Okay, so that's mid to late 90s. We're seeing that go on. You're seeing the kind of a research that's in train hopping and crust punk and also pop punk. Both kind of researched at the same time. I said all the genres of punk we've talked about, two kind of existed at the same time, but like kind of trailing waves like we talked about in

different arcs and and different dips for each different subgenre of punk kind of, you know, each one kind of had its heyday. Okay. So that gets us into, I want to say the late 90s. So again, the Democrats and the labor party that isn't is now in charge on both sides of the pond. Although you have the contract with America is another big theme that we end up hitting on a lot. So you have the veneer of liberality, but quite honestly, everything shifting rightward is punk getting, is punk disengaging from politics at this point? Because we've seen a lot of other stuff become apolitical at this stage. There's definitely, there definitely becomes sort of a rift. That's also always been there, but definitely it becomes more pronounced at that time. It becomes more of like, in the late 90s, it's deciding what punks are friends with other punks. You know, if you listen to Green Day, you can go fuck yourself.

You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. You know, like, oh, that guy's in a, that guy's in a blink 182 shirt. Let's kick his ass. Oh, you know, people start treating each other like that. You know like all that guys and that guys in the blink when 82 shirt. Let's kick his ass You know people start treating each other like that I would say more like the I would guess you would call your hardcore street punks and stuff would have had more animosity toward the pop punk culture

Because you know they felt slided by it and and a lot of those people are dumbasses to be honest like Even I consider myself like a part of the anarchopunk movement and I consider us to be a large a lot of movement largely of junky dipshit's but With that that are that admire a lot of really smart people who play music. That's a that's an interesting coalition. That's a that's an interesting coalition. Yeah, I probably, I'll probably, a lot of people have heard that I said that and probably it'd be like, that's the fuck that guy. What did he really just say that? But in their heart of hearts, they know it's kind of true.

Well, any, any hate mail feel free to send to me. Yeah. Harmony comedy at gmail.com. There you go. So, man, that proud member of the punk community and fuck most of us. Which seems kind of emblematic. Like, yeah. Like a self awareness, you don't see at the Grand Ole Opry.

Friends know, you know, sometimes if you see a guy with a green mohawk at a gas station, like laugh in the clerk's face and throw a dollar worth of penny in or salad, you know, uh, that she's just trying to eat behind the counter. Because, you know, she won't sell them a beer. They're like, fuck these guys. Who are these? I did that once. That's a story about me.

Oh, but, uh, that's how comedians write good jokes about people they don't like. Did you know that? That's like the number one. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Comedians like jokes about like this motherfucker.. I hate it's them. Yeah. Yeah Okay, so literary writers and comics. I guess I have that in common. I threw my change in that lady's salad I was like 19 at the time to my credit right

So I would accept my change lady's salad. I was like 19 at the time to my credit. So all cushions, except my change. Oh, yeah, it's legal tender. I can, I can understand raging against the 711 machine. Yeah, well, you know, when you're in alcoholic and you want a 40 ounce of beer, it's yeah, a hundred and six, 160 pennies is a lot of time to gather and count, especially when your fingers are wobbly. The DTs at 19. All right, so we're in the late 90s now, and like you said, punk, it's almost punk is self-canibalizing on some levels or they are for sure.

Okay, for sure. It's kind of always been doing that. What's happening in the white supremacy end of punk? Is that trailing off because those people are getting arrested more often? The 90s was a bad time to be a neo-Nazi around the punk movement. Okay. I'll give the punk movement credit there. Both the pop punk kids and the hardcore punk movement. Okay. I'll give the punk movement credit there, both the like the pop punk kids and like the hardcore punk kids. If you could get them to hang out for one

reason, it because because a guy with a swastik at tattoo on his neck showed up at the show. Then all of a sudden, everyone's friends except that guy. Right. But yeah, definitely the 90s was a time of cleansing not not so much of the corporate entity, but of the fascist entity from the punk movement for sure. Um, which I don't think I don't think it's had the grip it had ever since then either. I think that after the like Nazis got beat out of the punk movement in the 90s, they've been a periphery ever since, you know, it's, if you see a guy with a swastika at a punk show, he was trying to hide it and slipped, you know, his turtle neck moved.

Okay. Yeah. So that question about that, their, their, their, their, sorry, I, I didn't want to, I didn't want to step on. Oh, it's fine. And their boldness is gone. So, yeah. You know, a question about that.

So if they, if that element left the punk movement, does anybody here know? Because it occurs to me. Is that when we start seeing the death metal and other metal genres start having their problems with Absolutely. With white supremacists. Absolutely. And the white supremacist problem in metal kind of came around after the turn of the century. Okay. It kind of got bigger and more prominent.

And then they're kind of in the process of doing their own cleansing in this much the same way. But, um, yeah, for sure, I think that's kind of how white supremacists work. They find cultures of disenfranchised youth, given something to glomons who feel like they have a family or friends or a group they're a part of, and eventually, a lot of times those groups, though, it's against the core notion of that group.

So it doesn't work out too good for those Nazis. And I think I think metal also has a very similar anti-authority vein as punk. I think it also has a very similar anti-authority vein as punk. I think it might be a little more rooted in darkness and like being a weirdo, but you know, so you know the interesting thing with the metal thing though is that it it had more mainstream appeal earlier on. Yeah, and so it could it could kind of rest on that and I'm thinking the And so it could it could kind of rest on that and I'm thinking the the ones who got beaten out of the punk movement a lot of them ended up going into corrections and police work. And metal is a pretty popular genre of music amongst people who carry batons. So it's aggression, you know, it's yeah. Oh, yeah. No, if you want to listen to something, it'll make you want to run through a brick wall.

I have several albums I can recommend and all of them are involved, you know, very crunchy bass line. I believe like music that's like very aggressive like that. There's two ways it can be enjoyed. There's in and out and you can use it to like pile your aggression in or you can use it to release. It really depends on, I think it's just your mindset when you enjoy that.

Well, you never be like like you can, you can stew. You can use it to stew and brood, you know, make your anger and your, your problems worse. You know, you can sit around and listen to mega death and get matter if you want. Okay. Or you can sit around to it and like, you know, play air drums to it and walk out of your room feeling better after an hour Yeah, right. I think I think it's I think you can approach like Aggressive music two different ways Because you never meet a guy and like you the guys you meet that are in like brutal thrash metal and death metal bands They're always like hey, I'm Mikey. Could I please have a glass of water before the next song or you know Yeah, you know Dave Matthews is like where is the bitches? It's so weird. It's like all the M&Ms I wanted. It's just, yeah,

right. Where's my Reese's monkey skeleton? Yeah. Yeah. You mean like some guy named Corpse Grindr from a Norwegian metal band in the in the green room, the club owners like, do you need anything? He's like, no, the glass of water, please. Let me know when I go up. Like, how's the family? Yeah. How are you doing? Oh, wow. Nice to see you again.

How's Mrs. Death Grindr? How is she? Yeah. Oh, there's some remarkably well-adjusted people. Yeah. Because they're getting it out. Yeah, you know, they're they're they're working it out Um, that makes a lot of sense Dude in Norway black metal is considered like a national pastime Like if you're a 16-year-old and you tell your parents you want to wear a skin tight leather pants and play guitar

They're like good for you son. It's like telling you your parents. You want to play soccer in America. They're like, Oh, cool. Well, let's go watch it. We'll watch you. That's literally how they treat, that's literally how they treat black metal in Norway. People are like, Oh, you got a black metal band. Let's we get all the parents together. We'll watch you. Oh, that's wild. Yet Norway actually is the number two consumer of tacos worldwide. Yeah. Was it Norway or Denmark? It's Norway.

Norway. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The Norway has Pepsi and tacos. Yeah. Was that is that like, is that just what they think that it is on a tortilla? Or is it like fucking tacos? It's tacos.

Yeah. It's fucking tacos. Like it's fucking tacos. Yeah. That's interesting. It's because I've had I've had Mexican food in Europe and it's always a mistake. Sure. Even Italian food sometimes in Europe is a mistake, which is weird. Yeah. The closer you get in proximity to Italy, when you travel internationally, the worst the Italian

food gets until you're in Italy. Yeah, it's like this weird corona effect that happens. Yeah. So I had I had I got pizza in Germany. It was a pizza with ketchup and a, so, a piece of like a big piece of salami sitting on it. That was it. In Germany, I had really good hurry seasoned sausage. Oh, yeah. It was a weird combo. That's a weird, yeah, it's a weird thing, but having

it, having volunteered at a bunch of October fest. Yeah. No, it's that is, yeah, it's weird, Europeans can do curry. Yeah, though, they spent so much time trying to enslave and fuck with those people. They know how to make their food. So, the joke that's making its way lately is, how are you going to conquer the whole world for spices and put none of it in your cooking? Yeah. Yeah, damn English. Yeah. You know what we should do with this steak?

We've traveled the world and learned everything. I'm going to boil it. I'm going to boil it. You're going to add in that charred pepper? No. No. Too valuable. Okay.

So, we're in the late 90s, early 2000s now. They beaten the fascist out. Pop is ascendant. Pop punk is ascendant. As punk is kind of turning on itself. I mean, we're still like 20 years from now. So what was happening a generation ago? What was happening pre in post 9-11? I guess is really kind of where my mind goes.

It's interesting, you know, or pre-imposed creed. I don't know if that would be a better marker. 9-11 was an interesting time. A lot of great punk albums came out around then. I bet. I bet there were a lot that were delayed too. Yeah. Yeah, there's one that called, I think the album is called World Trade as a death machine. It was originally going to be called Shoot the Kids at School, but the label wouldn't let them do that. But the cover is the two towers collapsing, but their gas pumps, like their photo shops, so there's two gas hoses going up into the sides of them. And it's a beautiful, it's a whole amazing photo collage of this record.

Yeah, so there were some amazing political punk records that came out. It right around 9, 11, a lot of good art that came out of that too. Yeah, it was pretty iconic. I mean, it's a flash bulb moment, you know, yeah. out of that too. Yeah, it was pretty iconic. I mean, it's a flash bulb moment, you know. Yeah. So yeah, right around then, you've got like a lot of the resurgence of crust punk and the anarcho punk and pop punk simultaneously. They kind of fuel each other through mutual dislike of each other and of Nazis together, which is a lot, I think that one of the good things that's happened since then, I think in the last 20 years, which is probably more of a nutshell

explanation, punk's kind of been steady with up and down waves, survived kind of the death throw of the split of pop music, because that just kind of fully separated. And like, I think even the average joke and look at bands like Blink 182 or Green Day and know that that's kind of, that's something different than what is considered punk rock. I think average Joe knows that that's what that pop punk isn't punk rock. And that's why it's called pop punk. Yeah. I think I was shocked. I hear blink 182 was considered punk in any way, but I think that division is so obvious now to everyone

that the animosity is less because of that, because no one's walking up to some dude in a crash shirt and being like, oh, you like blink 182? Like, you know, that just doesn't happen. And sure, and these days there's chances that that guy's 40 and he might be like, yeah, I like both bands. So.

So do you think there's less identity tied to it? That guy's 40 and he might be like, yeah, I like both bands. So. So do you think there's less identity tied to it? I think somewhat yes. And I think it depends on the person individually, you know, I think punk is less of a general identity that you choose is now because there's so much other newer cool shit. Okay. But I think if you still look around to it, it kind of is cool. You go to me like anywhere you can, you see teenage

punks, which is interesting because you don't walk around too often and see like a teenage kid like with an afro and a Jimmy Hendrix shirt or like a flower power thing in a headband. But you still see kids with, you know, red, spiky hair and leather jackets. And I think there's something there's something that's almost unkillable about that culture. And it's hard to say why? OK. Well, do you think it has something to do with the fact that no matter what generation you're talking about when you're 16,

17, you're always going to have to put up with feeling like your parents are pushing you around and society wants you to fit into a box and like you just don't fucking way to do it. For sure. I just, it's interesting that I feel like there's not a similar, like I imagine something else would pop up. Okay. You know, like a new name for some, maybe even just a new name for the same fucking thing.

So that old people could be like, Oh, that's punk. You're calling that flip flop now. Ah, whatever. You know, but yeah, it's like the old heads with rap versus hip hop. Yeah. You know, it's, oh, what do you listen to? Drake for why don't you listen to end up? Yeah.

You know, that kind of yeah. But in punk, the old heads are are highly respected right you know any Well any punk in a subhuman shirt of any age is you know, it's like that guy's cool the subhumans are amazing You know they came out in 1978 and I still go to their shows and there's still kids, you know 13 to 15 16 year old kids there Rocking out party and having a good time and and they also are not blown away by the fact that I'm there. Oh, just cool. So the generational gap in punk is in his obvious and other like cultures of music either old, old punks and young punks it shows is just we're all just glad we're there. Is is that in part due to the fact that or due to the possibility, I don't know, this is a fact, due to punk has so many different subgenres,

but there was not really, well, I guess I'm asking, was there an actual evolution of the art or does it just split into subgenres and kind of hold steady? Whereas in hip hop and- A fact of when some punk- A fact of when some punk-

A fact of when some punk- A fact of when some punk- A fact of when some punk- A fact of when some punk- A fact of when some punk- A fact of when some punk- A fact of when some punk- A fact of when some punk- A fact of when some punk- A fact of when some punk areas. Yeah. Sometimes punk evolves, but punk is also oddly enough with its sound somewhat traditionalist to its own fault. Like, you know, so a lot of people like a certain kind of punk rock and then they get in their mind that that's what punk rock is. You know, I hold the opinion that punk rock is music made by punks regardless of what it sounds like.

Because I mean, Devo is a punk band. Their first record, you know, is arguably a punk record, but it's very weird. Sure. You know, um, and then you've got bands that sound like metal and you've got punk bands that sound like pop music. So I think the best way to say it in my opinion is that it's music made by punks. And that I think lyrical content is somewhat as certainly important. But I

think to the actual sound of punk rock is, is ill-defined and purposefully and that's what the way it should be. Okay. Because when punk started in the late 70s, it was just a catch basin for these bands can't get fucking gigs anywhere else and no one will play them. Right. So that's what you were a punk band. If you, if everyone thought you sucked, but you were actually good at what you did, but no one wanted to buy it, it was, it was just garbage, rock and roll. That was just, yeah, punk was just a catch-based in term for shitty rock and roll music.

Is the, again, I kind of come back to, it seems less of an identity and now more of an interest. And it doesn't mean that people don't dress up to go out to shows and stuff like that, but you don't see groups of like 30 or 40 punks at a thing. You see four or five. Yeah. In some places you do, because there are places where scenes pop up, you know? You'll have a show of a punk scene in a city for 10 years. There are boys moving to Philly or whatever, you know?

Okay. But you do see that. When I lived in Philly for a while, and one time we had a house party there. I want to say 2007 and there were about 200 punks pouring out of my row house into the street and When the police showed up they pulled up on the corner Looked out their car and drove away That was the only stop they made at the party Not worth the trouble.

We were literally, there were so many of us that we were like, we could just drink in the street. Like what are the, like there were, there were enough of us there that we're like, what are they going to fucking do? Right. Critical mass. Yeah, it was a critical mass. We're just like, we'll just, like it came to the point where it was like, you can't tell

these people not to take their beer outside. Like, right. Right. We're out there. There's no room to drink. I came to the point where it was like, you can't tell these people not to take their beer outside. Like, right. Right. Where else there's no room to drink. Like. So there's, there are places and events that happen like that. In Europe, it's still like that.

I went to a punk festival in Europe just a couple years ago. And on the train into the festival, into that town in Germany, as you get closer, the train fills with more and more weirdos and less and less average people. But there's a cop on every train, you know, just wanders around. Sure. And the back train car of every train on the way to this festival filled with punks,

drinking, smoking, when the cops open the door to look in the back car, can start getting. I'd never seen anything like it can start getting thrown. Like just see everyone took their empty can or half full can through it at this cop. And he would literally be like, okay, okay. And just back out of the car. And I looked at this one German kid I was talking to who spoke English. We met on the train ride. I was like, really? And he was like, yeah, they don't have guns here.

What are they going to do? And he was like, in Germany, if you outnumber the cops, they have to go get more cops. That's just how it works. Right. That they leave. They like shit. We got to go get more cops. That's just how it works. Right. Right. That they leave. They like shit.

We got to go get more. They can't just shoot at you. Right. They're not dressed for a tactic. And you know, it's one hop on the. He doesn't have a gun. So even if he pulls out his stick, these 10 punks are going to be like, Oh, no, this isn't happening.

So, and Europe, there actually are, there's still punk gangs in Europe that have like, you know, they have power in numbers. Wow. Mostly because the police can't shoot at them, but yeah. Well, yeah. When at this festival, there was a guy who got hurt and when the cops and paramedics rolled up, they made a hole for the paramedics and ambulances and fire trucks and then like, like closed it up and just stood there.

Like, cop cars aren and just stood there. Like, your cop cars aren't coming in here. You ain't doing nothing. You ain't helping nobody. It was, it was, it was kind of beautiful. Yeah. That's a silly action. They were like, you paramed, their paramedics, the paramedics got this guy, helped them up,

got them straightened out. You know, you just knocked on the head and he was okay. Mm-hmm. And everyone's like, you guys want to beer? You know, whatever. Tell the cops to fuck off on your way out. We love you guys. Like be here, you know, whatever. Tell the cops to fuck off on your way out. We love you guys. Like, Oh, that's wild.

It reminds me of when I went to that body count concert and it was at the Oakland Coliseum. And they, they opened for Metallica and Gunn Rose's. It was that tour. And iced tea, like basically kind of talked about, because you remember the trouble he was getting in for having cop killer. And so he was talking about it. And he's like, yeah, some of the Oakland PD was like, you know, maybe we won't even come to your event and do security. And he's like, so they're, they're not interested in keeping you safe

because of music that I perform. He's like, how pussy is that? And then he's like, so I want you all to lift up your fingers, and he pointed to where, you know, the police headquarters were, and we all flipped them off. And he's like, but I do see some cops here. And they came here, you know, and it probably wasn't a popular choice. So, you know, and he holds up a peace sign to all them.

He's like, you know, you guys, you're down. We're good with you. And like everybody who's cool with the cops then, then we all start turning the power up power as an entertainer. Yeah. Yeah. It turns out so. So wild.

All right. So, you know, the other things happening in the 2000s. So you got the post 9-11 thing. You said there's a lot more political display, but was there more political activity or was there? I mean, you yourself, define yourself as an anarcho punk, um, was there an uptick in that community? Okay. Uh, yeah, for sure. Um, definitely. There was, um, you say like, there were bands like, uh, like anti flag that got popular then, which were kind of towed the line between,

they had kind of a poppy sound, but they were extremely political. And involved in a lot of activism. Like you can see, if you went to like a protest in Pittsburgh, you would see the guys in that band there. Sure. So there was quite a bit of that. There was a lot of blending, um, supposed 9 11, I would say it in the 2010s of poppy punk and sort of political ideology,

like kind of coalesce back together, but in a more legitimate way. So it wasn't as corporate funded, but it still kind of had that radio friendly sound. So you have these friends playing kind of like fulky radio friendly sounding punk rock, but not holding back on the f**ks and the cunts and the abrasive messaging, which was cool. A lot of it was called fulk punk, which ranges from it's kind of bands that train hoppers that play bluegrass all the way to like those groups

like against me. It's just kind of like acoustic, you know, rock and roll. You know, if hoodie and the blowfish was mad about some shit or something. Sure. And if they heard me say that, I would be assassinated by that band. But I don't think we have that kind of reach to the war. Yeah, I don't know where it is. Said your punks won't even listen to this.

Oh, that's how punk rock we are. That's something to be said for. Yeah, I'm in a band. We just stand in the woods naked because we don't want to use the power from the man. That's right. We don't work close. We don't play music. That's the real alternative.

I don't want to influence someone to not think for themselves. So make up your own lyrics to the noise I didn't make. We're silent, but deadly. So, okay. So I'm also noticing post 9 11, we have an ongoing war for roughly 20 years. And punk came about at a time that a war had just ended and urban blight was huge. So, what was the ongoing war doing to, because you said everything is like kind of coming together in coalescing.

It sounds almost similar to, we don't like each other, but fuck that guy with the schwaastika. So we don't really do anything, but you know what, fuck this war. Is that what's going on? Or definitely some of that. And also over the 20 years of ongoing war, it kind of had, I guess, the school shooting effect. Where political punk eventually just became like, oh, great.

It's another fucking. Yeah, the police are about. Yeah, we hate war. We hate war. And at that point, you start seeing a research into some of the old touring bands that were a little more offensive and belligerent, which kind of got nipped in the bud also,

like you see like the mentors, which are self-proclaimed as rape rock. Oh, Jesus Christ. And their entire existence was based on being offensive, okay. Which up until 10 years ago, you could kind to do. Sure. Society has moved beyond. That's just we're not doing that now. Right. So the mentors are canceled now. But they there was sort of a resurgence of just dumb, fun, offensive punk. Mm-hmm. Shortly after the, I guess we're still sort of in the war all the time era.

But punk rock about war got war out. I can see them. Yeah. And I mean, nobody wanted to pay attention to it because, you know, that's over there. Aaron Sorkin will write something about it from time to time and and by and large. Yeah. I will give, I will give punk rock credit for this too. Got very big into the police brutality against minorities and speaking out about that long before it was a thing that was well-broadcasted. Okay. I could name you a million punk songs from the late 90s early early 2010s that were you know punk bands sin about cops shooting black people and how fucked up it is even just you know white suburban punk bands right. We're aware of this and it's just you know at the time the adults were all like oh

you're just upset that doesn't happen that much it'd be on the news right. If it was a problem right. You know and uh you know the kids in the street though they're seeing this shit sometimes set that doesn't happen that much. It'd be on the news. If it was a problem. Right. And, you know, the kids in the street, though, they're seeing this shit sometimes, you know? Or, you know, they're in the street. These poor white kids actually have fucking black friends. And, you know, who tell them what's going on in their communities? Or they go over, they've actually been to a black kid's house.

Right. When they believe them. You would be amazed how often, if you just walked up to a random white person and said, has there ever been a black person in your house? 98% I would, I would imagine would say, actually, no, or would lie to you. Yeah. There was a thing that went around for teachers for a while was name the first name, what grade you were in when you had your first black teacher. And overwhelming majority of us, it was in college. And it was still only one.

Never. I've never been asked that thought about it. Never. Never in my life. I had a black principal at a school once. That was it. 7th grade. 7th grade for you. Yeah.

Algebra. It's it says something about our society that I would never even notice that so you asked me that question. Yeah. We are the default. And that's how you get to one people are like, well, I'm not racist. It's like, yeah, but you're immersed in it anyway, even if you're not, right? You live here. You live in racists. You might not notice it. Yeah. Well, and it's the, what do we say? Ed, it's the water that's a pattern on the wall. Well, it's the water. We're swimming in. It's the pattern on the wallpaper. Yeah. It's like, which is funny because it's the ultimate whoopsie pass to is like, oh, fuck, I didn't realize. But instead people like so identify with the

system that they defend it. Yeah. Well, yeah, they're invested in the system. Yeah. Yeah. So it protects your vital interest. So if you got to be a little racist, dude. I want my kids to be happy. I want them to go to the good school. So we don't do segregation. We just, what makes it the good school again? Yeah, well, we have this program.

Oh, yeah. And it's not, everybody has a chance to apply. So, you know, or a boros is struck again. Yeah. So, all right. So, the ongoing war just kind of wears people out, which is, I think, a feature, not a bug. So, what about the streaming?

Because also in the 2000s, you have a shift towards streaming or not streaming. I'm sorry. I will get to that. Two question. Napster. Yeah, bit torrenting and then iTunes. Napster, when that all came out, Napster, I guess, is the OG. And that's the one I used. I got lime wire and the others when Napster failed,

but they were no, they paled in comparison. Mm-hmm. But anyway, it's not a commercial. I got Napster and that sort of thing became a boon for sharing that music because a lot of punk didn't have a major outlet. And so just like underground metal or anything else, it was shared by people passing around tapes

and records and sharing with each other. So CD burning and, um, odd and bit torrents completely changed the game. All the sudden you're finding millions of different bands, like the world is opened up. And now you, all these anarcho punk kids, you can hear a band from Oregon. I would have never thought I heard live in it, Florida. I would have never heard of these guys in my whole life. And now I'm sure we're all friends. And that kind of helped rebuild some of that network. And that like touring in a punk band is actually, if it weren't for gas, is was becoming a thing again. Like, you know, people or the

connections are mostly rebuilt. The Occupy movement had a lot to do with that too. Just brought it back to the urban centers. Sure. And like a lot of, a lot of punks don't like other punks, you know, it's just we find, I think we find each, a lot of us are abrasive annoying people for different reasons. And we found this culture as a place where we could go

or someone's not telling us we're annoying or drunk or loud or ADD or whatever the fuck it is that made people generally not want to be around us So when you put a bunch of us together sometimes it doesn't make it any better Or less annoying for the people who are annoyed by those tendencies It's just a cluster fuck. I forgot. What was the question? How the Napster movement and you you were talking about how it rebuilt networks and the people were touring. Yeah, and I was saying the Occupy too.

All those protests brought people like disenfranchised street kids, all of a sudden heard about this big protest. There's a camp out of people who don't like the police over here. And so all of a sudden I made a bunch of friends during Occupy and like internationally, like I had, there was an anarchist movement that kind of resurged and and punk and anarchism kind of, you can't separate them from each other really in American philosophy. Right. So it just kind of, that helps build things again too.

I guess around 2009. As I say, it would have been was 07 was when you start to see the the occupy movement and then by 09. Oh, 9 was like the fizzle out. Yeah. And then the tea party went went right word instead of how they started. Like there's I've always had like great sympathy for like the original Tea Partyers because they were, a hair's breadth different from Occupy. They just wore nicer clothes.

They were, they were Occupy, they were the conservative Occupy, they were rich. They were Occupy with money. Right, but they were like their houses. Yeah, well, and then the Koch brothers just asked for a turf to shit out of it. And they used it for white nationalism. But I remember during the Occupy movement when we were first setting up the camp in Charlotte,

where I participated, we had representatives from the Tea Party come down and wanted to meet with us and talk with us about collaborating on some direct actions and different stuff. And we were blown away. Yeah, because we were like, you're with the tea. And these guys were in there, you know, they're khaki cargo shorts and their socks and sand stuff and we were blown away. Yeah, because we were like, you're with the team. And these guys were in there, you know, their khaki cargo shorts and their socks and sandals and their polos and the full deal. You know, they looked like they just came out of revenge of the nerds and they were gonna beat up the nerds.

Right. And yeah, they were just like, we wanna talk about collaborating on some direct action and we were like, what do you mean by direct action? You don't look like direct action guys. Like, but yeah, they were kind of down. They went to city hall and made a ruckus with us and then shortly after they quit showing up, because yeah, they got co-opted and swung right and yep. So money, money does that.

So, so you've got the Napster thing and that's reuniting people and then you have YouTube, which I assume is a great way to start seeing concerts. I waited for YouTube for years because you'd be like, you can find obscure music on YouTube, right? And there'd be some band whose album you can't find unless you can find the damn tape in a record store in some city. And I'd look on YouTube every month. This is album on YouTube yet.

No one's uploaded it yet because it's obscure. You gotta find some guy who can get it from tape to digital. But now all that shit's out there Sure, it's amazing. You know, I was waiting as a teenager for these albums to be on the internet and I knew eventually they would be So you were a teenager during this time Yeah, I was I'm 40 well, I'm third. I just turned 39. Okay. I said I'm 40 because it's a round number and it's easy to say Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just turned 39

So yeah, I was 15 to you know, I was 15 because it's a round number and it's easy to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just turned 39. So yeah, I was 15 to you know, I was 15 to 8 15 to 17 with during Napsters like prime. Yeah, like Lars Ulrich had them shut down when I was like 17 18 years old. He threw a hissy fit and yeah, I was a right wing politics and metal. Yeah, kidding. I need a new bow. Yeah. politics and metal. Yeah, kidding. I need a new boat. Yeah. God, because I remember people started like doing like web web comic cartoons. There were so many funny fucking. Oh yeah. I'm bad. You know, that's the one from newgrounds.com. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We got the Metallica Cochrane ring or blood sweat and tears for you. Pete that video so fucking funny. And they had them on like, uh, there was one where they had them on, uh, who wants to be a millionaire.

It's like, Regis, we could totally fucking kick your ass. And it's just like, people could let him be dickheads, but then they like sued a 12 year old's family into the ground or something. And it was like, fuck you Metallica. Yeah. Like, so, okay. So, uh, you got the YouTube. What about my space? Like social media starts to kick in. I can only imagine that makes the networking easier. And at the same time, it allows people to kind of stovepite their

punkness. Oh, yeah. Everybody's band had a my space page. And of course, your personal my space pages and isn't really you. That's the your ideal ideal you that you, you show everyone. Oh yeah. So yeah, everyone, everyone who was into punk rock, had a super punk rock, my space page. Oh okay. Is it, um, but yeah, it was a great way for bands because you could put a couple tunes on your page. Sure.

You know, you could, you know, you could, you know, hey, we got, we need tour dates, you know, and so my space is a cool networking. So I almost forgot about my space. It was crazy, you know. Yeah yeah, I did a lot of people. My top eight. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Top. I remember getting an email from a friend. Oh, I guess I'm not your top eight anymore. I'm like, well, you tried to rip me off. I quit adjusting my top eight after like a certain period of time. I was like, I'm sick of people.

People notice this. I don't notice when I'm in somewhat, like fuck this. Yeah. If you're in my top eight, now you're in it forever. Yeah. So, okay. And is that changing punkers?

It just kind of continuing on the momentum. I think it's just continuing on. I think punk has had a steady, mod medium momentum, you know, just like, I guess, kind of, just like heavy metal or anything that's underground, but hasn't gone away. A lot of the old bands, like the legendary bands are touring again, which is cool. People who are like just big deals in the late 70s and 80s that are that aren't dead, which is few and far between from that culture and sure. If you're, you know, they say punk retirement is 40.

If you make it past 40, you're dead or you're not punk anymore. You got one year, Jason. Yeah. That's fine. I'll be dead. Wait. I think I'll be fine. Yeah.

Hardly. But that's just find my philacterie. That's just something people say. Um, but I said, there's bands I see they're and they still rip to my favorite band is the subhumans. That's like an anarcho punk band and they still tour. They're singers 60 something and they rip like you would, you wouldn't get as you watch them play and you're like, God damn, they're not the band you watch tour and you're like, they should quit. Right.

So there's a lot, there's like, there was a resurgence about like in the 2010s and after of a lot of those bands touring again, not just doing like a reunion once a year to, you know, pay their rent or whatever. They're touring and playing and making enough money to actually do it again, which is interesting. It's a good sign for me, for me as a fan and participant, oh, the culture. So what did what impact, if any, did the Obama years and then did also the Sarah Palin and Fox news in like overtaking of that side of the media landscape? What effect, if any, did they have on punk? I think it depends on what like the purse, the particular political views of that group

or person or group of people. Okay. You'll have like a lot of people were satiated by Obama, you know, but if you go far left enough, you know, you get your guns back and you get mad again. Right. So or so they say, you know, um, but, um but so I think a lot of people saw beyond the liberal facade, so to speak, and saw a guy who was drone striking people and missing, and missing targets and hitting some hospitals sometimes, which doesn't happen. You hit hospitals on purpose. But we don't have to, it was five miles down the road. It's very weird. Yeah.

Yeah. But, uh, I think a lot of people who are more politically educating themselves, um, in that side of the punk movement weren't pleased with Obama. I think in the general anarcho punk movement, the, the general consensus is if, if you're a president, you're a dickhead. And if you want that job, you're already in the pocket of somebody who's helping you get there, not you. So I think as far as anarcho punk is concerned,

president's bad. Right. But as far as the general, I mean, there's like a liberal, a more liberal moderate wing, I guess, of punk rock too. And I think they just went as far as to not praise him. I think that's what you do when there's a moderate or left leaning president and you're kind of in the liberal kind of wing of the punk movement is you just you just don't praise that person. Okay. You know, like there's

I don't think there's any punk songs about fucking Bill Clinton. There's just not. like there's I don't think there's any punk songs about fucking Bill Clinton. There's just not. But I'm sure there's some obscure crust punk songs or something where he's mentioned here or there, you know, but unless it's like an anarcho punk band, they're usually placated by by liberalness. But like anarcho punk tends to lean is like the farthest left is the radical end of the punk rock political spectrum. Yeah, I Like to think I lie there even though I'm pushing 40 but Well, and so did cuz I'm just I'm kind of going through like the greatest hits of like the last 10 years through like the greatest hits of like the last 10 years, did the Sarah Palin and Fox news movement reach any kind of like like did like did that spike any kind of reaction. Absolutely.

There was a big scene in and and and Pittsburgh is a group called Os rotten. They also had another there's like these four guys that had a bunch of bands, one's called Behind Enemy Lines, Os rotten, Costick Christ is one of the bands these guys had, but they were all very, very political and they talked a lot about like that Palin, GW and that whole phase chainy of politics. Yeah, the only dick I like is my second in command. I remember that line from from an awesome song.

Nice. Okay. And then that brings us to, I guess, the, the, the Trump years. What is, what has happened with punk since 2015 since he started running? I think actually what's cool as punk has become actually started to evolve musically somewhat out of its kind of self self set boundaries. In a more acceptable way, which is, which I like, it's cool to see that the general community of punk accepting more stuff like there's a guy from the UK right now called Bob villain.

It's just it's these two black guys. They both call themselves Bob Villain and their group is called Bob Villain and they're super political. And their sound is a cross between anarcho punk and like UK Grime hip hop. Like you've heard you've heard like British Grime rap, you know, it's it's that plus anarcho punk and it's super political. They they just did their first US tour. They've been a band for like eight years and I've been waiting for them to get popular enough. They finally came over and I saw them was awesome. Oh cool. But yeah, Bob villain is like, yeah, they mix hip hop and punk and it doesn't suck. People have tried to do that before. It's been miserable. They just tried too hard to be like legit rappers, yo. And it's just like, and it's just doesn't work.

And it's just like, dude, you're just some white punk kid who likes hip hop. Just be that. Sure. Like stay authentic, not, not mind. And then you've got to, yeah, just be authentic. Be yourself. If you like hip hop and make hip hop and like it, don't be someone. But anyway, Bob Villains fantastic.

There's a band from Australia. Australia's having a punk revival right now. It's amazing. There's a lot of big, like There's a huge punk movement in Australia. Why is that? I don't know. I don't know what's going on with their world over there right now. There's usually a coincidence between the rise of radical music and society. Well, I think in the last few years, they've also had a series of conservative prime ministers. And their conservatives are a lot like our conservatives. Only they have venom sacks behind the

canines. So my other wildlife. Yeah. So because I'm, do you remember prior to COVID? I guess that's its own question. But also do you remember prior to COVID? What the number one story in the news was before we started shutting down. Yeah, I don't know. It's fucking wild. Isn't I have to look it up. Yeah. Australia was burning to fire. Oh, my God. That's right. Yeah. And that was going to be the big fucking thing about 2020. Yeah. Was the wildfires in Australia because they're on the bleeding edge of climate change.

And before before they had the huge wildfires, I want to say it was earlier in 2019, they had massive dust storms that turned Sydney right orange rust red with these apocalyptic clouds of dust hovering half the continent. Yeah, moving apocalypse is a boon for punk rock music. It's yeah. Yeah. So I'm wondering a great band called Amel Amel and the Sniffers just coming out of Australia. Very good band. Okay.

Yeah. A female fronted punk rock band. Very awesome. The chats are another punk band coming out of Australia. That's big right now that's actually those two are ones that have actually gotten big enough to come tour here. I saw Bob Villain with Amel in the sniffers. So that was that was recently. It was a good show. Yeah. So there's like especially Australia as I think as far as I know like the biggest boom in the world of punk right now.

And it's really good. It always happens like that. You know, there's always somewhere that just has a cultural blossom. And I think looming apocalypse or cultural collapse tends to do that for punk rock. That makes sense. Okay. So, so then that brings us into the, again, the 2015 forward years. He said it's more, more coming from Australia. Yeah, right now for sure. And there's a lot more, just more, more genre bending.

That's, I think, always been one of punk's faults is that it kind of sticks to its, it's, it's, it's formula, formula stayed to its tradition to its own destiny. Yeah. And I think it's cool to see some, some bands kind of breaking out of that and not sucking at it. Right. Because it's, it's hard to add other stuff to punk rock without taking away from it in a way. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I could, I could, I could see that, that reticence. Yeah. That's if you, if you add too much something else, a polished element of something to something that's supposed to kind of be grimy and gritty, right, takes away from, you know, you're supposed to be looking at the grime, not putting something over it, smoothing it up, you know, that's punk.

The grime is there to look at in the punk rock. So yeah, if you, if you add hip hop to a well-produced beat to it, that's too overdone. All the sudden, it sounds like Drey is trying to do a punk rock song. It's not good. Right. So, so this guy Bob villain, I highly recommend you check him out. You cut out all my commercials for him. But we have a capability to edit like that. It's got a fantastic signal, single called We live here that will that will give you chills. Okay. Hey, I'm going to write that one down. Okay.

So what is COVID done to punk? Because punk is very anti-authoritarian, but at the same time, seems to have a layer of compassion to it, that would make me scratch my head genuinely wondering what they did. I have a friend who's an ex-pat, he lives in China, he's been there for 12 years in playing in punk bands. And that has done what the punk community over there is while sticking together so much because there's so much lockdown and monitoring,

right, and just crazy shit like that. So there's a lot more sneakiness and undergroundness because of consequences are so much greater. It doesn't stop people. It just increases the level of subversion. Right. So the punk community in China is becoming ever more subversive right now because of lockdowns and COVID and more oppressive government too. All that's kind of happening to the China is just culturally on fire right now and trying to keep the rest of the world from noticing that their entire society is revolting against them. And they're just like, okay, we'll lock you all in your fucking houses or shoot you. How about that?

Right now. How do you like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that?

You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? You like that? Stay in your fucking house. What about like in Iran? Like they've had a number of surges. Has there been an Iranian kind of punk scene? I don't know, but I bet if there is, it's even more subversive and possible.

I've known for a fact that there are secret punk movements places. Oh, really? There's in Poland, there was a while where it was illegal to speak out against the government like not until not that long ago Mm-hmm, and there's a band called post regimen that was active as an anarcho punk band from Poland in that time Oh wow, and they traveled with fake passports fake IDs fake everything that said they were German

Right, so they could tour and not get in trouble with the Polish government But yeah, you can find their records inside. I don't know how they got away with it They were German, so they could tour and not get in trouble with the Polish government. But yeah, you can find their records. And so I don't know how they got away with it. They're free people to this day. But yeah, there are an anarcho punk band from pseudo fascist Poland. And they just, they just fucking did it. So I think, yeah, some places, the more oppressive it gets, just the sneakier and more subversive their punks are, which is to the detriment of those people

oppressing them, because punks are hard, they'll die some of these people before they'll do what you tell them. That's sure. Especially in repressive places where, and some places punk isn't something your kids do. And some places, the guys with the red mohawks shoot at the police when they drive by, you know, I was going to say, there's

South Africa punk is insane, like really? Yeah, like it's like, like it's, it's, it's a bit more of a violent gang culture. Okay. Like it has a lot of the same political leanings, but it's a lot more militant. I guess a militant would be a more accurate description than violent gang culture, I think. Sure. It's more militant. So, and we completely skipped over Pussy, right? In Russia, yeah. Pussy, right? Same kind of repressive 2010s era. I don't even know that they're always in and out of reeducation. Yeah. Their thing seems to be to get caught doing it.

Like, yeah, I think being an example is like, that's just what they do. They're fearlessly, they'll probably end up, the members of that band will probably disappear one day, right? Or, or Putin will die die because I know the international community conspires to think that he's sick now. Right. Yeah, there's the other thing about pussy right, those that they often will wear masks. So it there is a Eddie and the cruisers

kind of vibe to it. Like a lot, a lot of pussy riot shows are you don't know it's a pussy riot show until pussy riot gets on stage. Yeah, because you can't, you can't flyer for that in Russia. You can't, you know, it's just, oh shit, pussy riot, played three songs and then ran into a van and drove away. Like, so back to the COVID thing. You said in China, it's, it's very anti authoritarian because the lockdowns and because of how overreaching government is. What about here in the States where like very clearly there was a need to hold up until we got vaccinations and we bifft that as well because spring break. But then we biffted

again because Memorial Day weekend and again because July 4th and again because you know because a lot of bif's. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so what, what did, um, and I guess, you know, it's not one monolithic movement, obviously, but what was the overall vibe amongst different punk communities? Was it a boss to the wall? Who cares wall who cares? Let's go out have fun or was it a, let's take care of each other so that we can come back together for a show later? Or yes. Oh, okay.

I think there was equally as much strife and division in that community as the community at large, gotcha. Well, that's interesting, because then they're not reacting to they're reflecting now. Yeah, there was definitely a from what I saw, I didn't go to punk shows during the pandemic, especially during like the dark, the real dark people are dying a lot time. Right. I just

didn't fuck around. But there were secret shows, you know, like a house show or, you know, a show in an alley somewhere that people had. But I remember seeing a hubbub on social media. People were like, you'll fuck you if you went to the show at the bib of a house. You're a dumbass. So there was just as much of that as there was with everybody else, I think. Yeah. I don't think it was as politically motivated. You know, I don't think there was as politically motivated. I don't think there was as much as of the virus's fake. I think it was more like, fuck you, I don't care.

I think that was more than, you know, it wasn't some right wing left wing or, or, you know, the virus is fake or real issue. It was just more like, I go to punk shows and I get drunk and you're not going to stop that. Yeah. which was just that was just some people's attitude. It was just, you know, punk is my life. That's what I'm doing. Sure.

Sure. And so I mean, it, it became politicized because people got mad at each other. It created internal politics, but yeah, but it was just his own stupid issue. It wasn't because punks were going on to Bre bright part to find out their marching orders that day. Yeah, exactly. It was just because some people were worried about each other's health and some people will just fucking weren't. Gotcha. But everybody knew it was happening. So, uh, well, that brings up up to the current day like, what is there an ability to project or to look at the history and see what could come next? Is there a theme that has woven its

way through and continues to hold strong? Or is it just kind of, it's protean because people are protean and it's kind of the point of doing punk is to do it your own way? I think that's the closest there is to it. I think there's a general, I don't know, malaise or boredom around punk culture now because while there are good bands coming, there haven't been any greats, you know, in a little while. You know, in the, I would say the last like great surgeons of punk bands was in like, but just before the 2010s, you had a lot of bands that like were like, you know, you have kids

filling up, you know, venues and you couldn't get a ticket somewhere or something, but it's not been like that recently, but it really, it matters with a band. Because the way it happens everywhere is you'll have a city that'll get, you know, a couple, five punk guys will get together or five punk people will get together for a band. Mm hmm. They'll get kind of popular and the community will build around that.

Now, the sudden the high school kids, what, what is there to do? Well, we can go to fuck asses show this weekend. Now, the sudden all these kids in the community are getting into punk rock because this one good band, right? Now, now this one good band. Right. Now this one good band gets a following of a hundred people come into their show every time. Now they can get bigger shows, they're touring, they're if they're good, they get big. Now there's the whole country knows about that's how like punk rock kind of grows. You just need a good band to be elevated by the scene

because the mainstream isn't going to do it. So it takes kind of a community almost purposefully, but also accidentally, but it's it's luck and the community coming together and organic intentional is them. Yeah, that's that's a great way to say it. It's an organic intentional that makes a punk band popular and legendary, if you will. Sure. And that hasn't happened since the just before 2010 with bands like like the Os rotten or behind enemy lines that that group from Philadelphia Pittsburgh area. And then you had bands like against me like folk punk kind of very kind of anarchisty theme but kind of more friendly sounding to the here against me was a band that blew up and I got huge out of Florida just based on like local support that rose them up and

and then they became they became something. So there hasn't really been a band to do that in punk since since then I think it's been you know good 10 or more years since some some force has popped up and and breathed life into the sure that genre I'm sure it will happen again um and breathe life into that genre. I'm sure it will happen again, but I think it's punk is going to evolve. I think that's the next thing that's going to happen. I think it's been a hard long road. Our skulls are very thick and take a long time to change shape.

Okay. Many, many years, but I think it's bound to happen because you can only rewrite Ramon's songs with new words for so many fucking years before people are like yeah, all right. Yeah, EDG, what else you got? Right. It's been 40 years guys. Cool. Why? I mean, unless you have an epilogue to that, I think that's a good place to leave it. Yeah, I'm, I'm surprised we got this much out of the second, the second run. Oh, I, I can squeeze a turn up, man. Yeah. Yeah. It's, that's, that's where it is now. It's in a very mediocre place, neither, neither seemingly dying or reviving, just do, just being alive.

Yeah, I, you know, unless you're in Australia. Right. Right. As I was gonna say, that mirrors kind of my own evolution of thought in the last several years of like, you know, the word mid has become an insult amongst the kids. Oh, you know, you've been to so and so, yeah, I saw their page, it's just mid.

And I heard kids saying regular, it's regular. Yeah, and I'm sitting there going like I have been aiming at mediocrity my whole life. Yeah, and I'm not there and it's like what people call shit vanilla It legitimately ticks my brain. I'm like vanilla is fucking good. Yeah, also also it's brown But like it's everybody's second favorite choice. And if down for that, if you think vanilla is bland, I challenge you to stick a vanilla bean in your mouth and chew on it because you're going to go, oh, fuck, that is a lot of flavor. Yeah.

Or drink a teaspoon. Go ahead. Yeah. I got almost fired from my first cook job at Applebees Because the vanilla extract went missing a lot and when they busted me I said I didn't know it had that much alcohol in it. I like vanilla coke a lot and they they they let it slide Nicely done good job. Yeah, I found like a quart of vanilla extract like a week at Applebees work in there I would just I would get I would drink it like it was liquor. I'd spray it in my Coke. Wow. Probably not very good for my guts. No, you know, run you through. It's good. So yeah,

cleansing agent. You could host my farts though. You'd be like who's cooking breakfast? Well, Ed, while you're laughing, what are you bleeding? I am walking away with a better understanding of the ecosystem, or the sine wave kind of a combination of the circle of life around, I think obviously for punk, because that's what we've been talking about. But I think part of what I've got going on in my own head is also thinking about other movements or other genres within art, within music, is all kinds of stuff has this same kind of life cycle. Oh yeah. And I think it's really something

what you said a minute ago about punk being in this place where it's just kind of steadily existing. I think there is a place where things become canonical within culture and subcultures become self-sustaining. It's like a better word, and it's interesting to see the way that arc develops or the way that that arc moves. And I think punk is probably the most entertaining example. Yeah, but that's just pretty much what I'm gleaming. Yeah, just behind that culture or you get like a war hall and like that is them and stuff like that right and stuff like that that came out. It's the same kind of same kind of vibe but a different way of expressing, you know, everything stupid, but I'm going to make art about how stupid art is like. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's my takeaway. And being the literary science fiction nerd that I am, I'm also looking at thinking,

okay, so William Gibson and Walter John Williams and the cyberpunk movement, taking the punk aspect as part of what they were trying to write in the 70s and into the 80s, you know, and how they, you know, tried to envision the future and managed to overlook some really glaring shit. But yeah, I mean, that's that's a whole other episode, but just yeah the the the Ark of that and the influence that it's had elsewhere It's kind of where my brain goes with it. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing all this stuff because this is awesome Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed it Most people just wait for me to stop talking so they can leave when I talk about this shit, so

We had you back. What we had you back. Yeah. Cool. The thing that I have kind of gathered from all this is that I'm a big lover of patterns, but I have to zoom way out to see the patterns in punk. Partly because y'all are a bunch of ants, but you're not part of the same colony. You know, you're roughly the same species, but there's like, you know, 32 hundred different colonies all being interactive with each other. And it's real interesting to like zoom out and see, you know, I've been trying to like, okay, so then this, then this, it's like charting the flight path of a house fly. So, that's been fun, to be honest. Yeah, it's a strange and insular weird culture, for sure. Yeah. But also, it's also very, it is a harbinger.

It's kind of, what are the punks doing? And we can kind of get a feel for what are they reacting to on some levels and that that that continues to be of interest to me. They were right in the 80s. So if they're right now, that's terrifying. Yeah. This punk music now is about how we'll all be dead soon. I hate to tell you. That brings me back to Australia. It brings me back to the, uh, they're on the bleeding edge of climate change. So, yeah. So, shit, I don't, I, move. That might be the subtitle for this one. If punk is right now, then we're all, we're all screwed. Um, cool. Well, um, yeah, again, thank you for this. Uh, is there anything

you would recommend to people to read or to watch any media you would want them to intake? Who me recommended media. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. I just put out a punk record that you could listen to. Yes. Yeah. Yes, yeah, plug it. It's on SoundCloud slash human debris human with a Y because we're not all men So you'll find it there Other media to take in oh man Watch a movie from Germany called what to do in case of fire It's a little little it's a little film about punk rockers who squat when East and West

Germany are still split. It's about a squatters that live on the not so friendly side of the wall, but still choose to be anarchist punk rockers. And it's about kind of when their kids they do some pretty subversive stuff and they go to blow up an empty building that's owned by a real estate company to make a symbol and their bomb doesn't work. But 20 years later, someone goes to sell that building and it explodes. Oh, sure. And then all these former youth anarchists find each other and basically are like, shit, our bomb went off. What do we do? And they basically have to reform their little group to cover their asses. And that's like how the movie starts.

That's like a weird version of it. Yeah, they basically, they basically have to become, like two of the guys are still squatter anarchists like in their 40s, but the rest of them have all become family people or own businesses or something. So it's, it's pretty cool. They all have to get the gang back together and be like, what do we do now? Oh, wow. What's it called again? What to do in case of fire? Or like, boss is the print. I can't remember the, it's a subtitles movie. Okay.

Yeah. Cool. Cool. Ed, any media you want to recommend? I'm going to recommend Mona Lisa overdrive. Is that the sequel to Mona Lisa's file? No. It's part of the original trilogy. Is that the sequel to Money Leesa's while? No.

It's part of the original trilogy written by William Gibson going back to Cyberpunk. The first book is Count Zero. Mona Lisa overdrive is the third one or actually Count Zero. Anyway, it's William Gibson, Mona Lisa Overdrive, and the future that he envisioned, and he wrote it, was heavily influenced by the things that punks were saying about what was going on in America at the time he was writing it. So that's pretty cool. Yeah, highly highly recommended. He manages to kind of skirt the idea of the internet without actually having the internet. Nice.

Because nobody nobody saw what the internet was actually going to look like, but yeah, so it's coded in Xerust. It's you know, the future as envisioned, you know, 40 years ago. Right. But, it's like, Hemcott is what people in the 70s thought the 2000s would look like. Yeah, precisely. Yeah. But still, it's an amazing book and highly, highly recommend. So that's my recommendation this time. How about you? Well, I'm going to recommend two. They're on widely different paths. One is called police brutality and white supremacy, the fight against African tradition or against American traditions. By Eaton Thomas, he'd also written We Matter, Athletes and Activism, which is a really good book. He himself was the center for the Washington Wizards for a while. And after he retired, he became a poet.

And he wrote a really compelling book. And I strongly recommend people pick up his sophomore sophomore book, which again, police brutality and white supremacy to fight against American tradition. The other one, I'm gonna, yeah. Oh, I just thought that sounds cool. Yeah, yeah. He does a great job of interviewing people and really pulling people in for his interviews and then pulling things out of them

that are like really, really just get right to the core of the issue. Nice. You know, in the last one, he interviewed the daughter, and she's now dead, unfortunately, but he interviewed the core of the issue. Nice. In the last one, he interviewed the daughter, and she's now dead unfortunately, but he interviewed the daughter of Eric Garner, the fellow on Staten Island that the police killed,

and just really what it did to America culture and stuff like that. He's interviewing his daughter about it. The other one is much more of a lark. It's called Sling the Dragon, a secret history of Dungeons and Dragons by Ben, Ben Riggs. It will, it's not going to paint Gary Geigax in a good light. I am here for it.

Yes, which is, it's cool. It's the history of, it's a, it's called, you know, it's a secret history of Dungeons and Dragons, right? So it's an unauthorized biography essentially. And yeah, he, he tells the story about ultimately, about the beginnings of D&D. And what's Guy Gax's problem? Is he like a racist or a homophobic or something? Or yes. Yes. Yes.

A monster. A monster. Other things. So he's, he's generally one of those kind of dickheads. Yeah. Well, he started as a wargamer like the elevator pitch. He started as a wargamer and was like, man, it'd be cool if these people had internal stories. But the kind of people who are wargamers are of a certain mindset.

And he was a wargamer from Ohio. And then it just it. Yeah. I collected a lot of war memorabilia maybe. Yeah. But my dad played war games with him because my dad was into war gaming as well. And it's a certain kind of personality. And, and you know, shading of this side and shading of that side. He said that Gagaxx was, it was a very annoying person to play against,

which all tracks. But we did an episode or two episodes, actually, on Dungeons and Dragons, fighters at ninth level and Jeffersonian democracy at did an incredible job. It's a lot of fun. It's somewhere down in the 20s of our episode. So feel free to check it out. It's all Philonealism all the way down. I need to listen to more of these. I would be remiss if we talked about anarchism and I didn't say tell people to read the monkey wrench gang. And that's the last thing I'll tell people to do. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So actually, it's a great. Um, right by who Edward Abby. Okay. Um, it's not red. So these people decide to get together and abandon society and they go live in the woods and commit acts of ecotarrism and stay on the run. Basically, they like blow up bridges and chemical manufacturing plants and run from the police and that they make that their lives. That's like the book. Is their adventure running from the authorities and sabotaging what they think damages the environment.

When was that right? All right. I want to say in the 60s 70s. It helped it helped trigger the earth liberation movement. I would say that it's out of the ELA. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right. It has real recipes for thermite and explosives in it too. Like not water down fictional book shit. Like you can make bombs out of this novel. It's very, it's not smiled upon by the authorities, which is why I read it. Sure. Well, yeah, I mean, that tracks.

So, all right. I feel like I keep hijacking this conversation. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're the guest. You're the guest at the point. Well, where can people Ed, we'll start with you, we'll go to me and we'll end with Jason, so he can plug out one more time. Sounds good. Where can people find you, Ed? Well, if you want to.

I am. Yeah, if they really want to try to find me on Twitter before it descends into a ball of some shade of blue flame. I am catfetched her, and then on TikTok, I am Mr. underscore Blalock, and then we collectively, of course, are still on Twitter as Geek History Time. Our website is www.GeekHistoryTime.com

and you have already found us. If you are listening to us, you found us somewhere. So on whichever service you did find us, I ask that you please subscribe and give us the five star review that you know we deserve. And that's us collectively. And you, Mr. Harmony, individually. Yeah, well, let's see. By the time this drops, I think, well, I'll go ahead and plug it just in case. If you're in the Sacramento area,

come to the January 6th capital punishment at Luna's, 8 p.m. bring $10 and proof of vaccination. If this drops after that, then come to Henry's bar in Sacramento on February 3rd. Same rules, same price, so 10 bucks, proof of vaccination, and come check it out. We're going to be punting pretty dang hard both of those times. That's about all you know, fuck I'm going to pun. What?

I'm sorry. So that's where you can find me for now. Jason, where can people find you or what you've done and what you do? What I do, what I, the most recently I've done, you can find on SoundCloud, SoundCloud.com slash human debris, human with a Y. It's just loud, aggressive punk music. I'm not much, you know, I haven't done like a standup show in over a year.

Yeah. So I haven't been doing much of that. I don't even think I can say I'm a comedian anymore. I'm not sure. Yeah, but for the pun show, I don't, it's just not worth going out right now. Yeah. What could I bring home?

Not money. Yeah. Maybe disease. So exposure. bring home? Not money. Yeah, maybe disease exposure. Yeah, to a virus. Yeah. We pay you an exposure. We told you. So, but yeah, go check out the SoundCloud album. So that'd be great. Isn't it cool to live in a time where we can say good news. It's a productive cough. What a world. sad. Well, besides that, thanks for everything. But it's been a lot of fun having Yon, man. It's good fun learning about something that neither was know anything about. So thank you. Yeah. I'm doing this is encouraged me to want to listen to more of these. So that's cool. Nice. Yeah. Get up to it.

You've earned a fan. Yeah. Cool. Well, for Geek History of Time, I thank you again, Jason B, and I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blalock. And until next time, keep rolling 20s. Keep rolling 20s.