A Geek History of Time - Episode 193 - Heroes Who Weren't Again again again

Episode Date: January 14, 2023

Wow, you're gonna like this. Oh, no, I'm not because there is no god damn middle. This is not unlike ancient Rome by the way Not so much the family circus Yeah, I did Want to create self-sustaining farms and you got into crystals. I know. Okay. I understand that standing farms and got into crystal sea. I know! Okay. I understand that. But yeah, I'm reading Livy, who is a shitty historian. Because Irrigan is.

Others say that because Laurentia's body was common to all the shepherds around, she was called a she-wolf, which is a Latin term for horror. You were audible, lassies. It was just most of it, where you slamming the table. As the Romanists at the table, well, duh. Yeah. Obviously. Ipso facto. Right.

You know, to engage in a little bit of dumb. Ipso, fuck a lot. You have a sword rat. 1.0.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1. This is a key history of life. Where we connect our YouTube to the real world, as Ed Blaylock and the world history and the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real history of the real middle school dance at my current site. And I can tell that I am learning the ropes of this job because this time I was wise enough not to actually spend any time in the gymnasium where it was being held. I managed to attach myself to people who had tasks outside of the building.

I still got to listen to all of the music quite clearly, but I was also able to hear at the end of the evening, which was a delightful change from last time. So you know, the little things you learn as you move into a new position somewhere. So yeah, that's my big piece of news about you. Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I'm a Latin and US history teacher up here in Northern California. And let's see, the big news for me is actually similarly related. I found my box of earplugs. So when I went to the rally last, I was able to actually sit in there and enjoy watching the kids show off and basically have fun. And I did not have the old man ringing ears, so I strongly suggest you invest in one of those buy a box of them for

For you know buy a box of 50 for 14 bucks. Yeah, yeah, go to a sporting goods store go to the shooting section Yeah, get them from there. There you go. Yeah, money very well spent very well spent indeed Yeah, you know, I had a lot of fun in episode 187 when we talked about more heroes that aren't and more villains that aren't. And I kind of, I still have more to say. And I kind of want to when don't you. When don't I? When don't, when doesn't either one of us, I mean, really, true, for that matter.

True. But yeah, but I kind of want to dive back in. Okay. We're ready for another. And I know that like we went from like, I want to say episode 62. Yeah. To episode 132 or no, we went. I'm sorry.

Very long time. 134 and then 162 and then 187. And here we are in this episode. I don't even think this episode is going to crest the 200 range yet. And I want to kind of come back to it. It was a lot of fun. Yeah. Well, you know, I think I think it'll leaven the overall tone of this, if you want to call it season. Yeah. Of the podcast. So yeah, seasons so long ago. Yeah, yeah, but you know, all right, but yeah, I'm I'm down. Let's do it. I've got one because it is somewhat timely, even for the fact that we try not to be timely. Yeah, because as of this recording, I believe the final season of walking dead

is starting. They're finishing. Okay. Yeah. Okay. There are several directions this could go from from that. So okay. So here is a hero who isn't. Oh. Rick Grimes.

Okay. This fucking guy. I swear to God. Um, I love the convention of he wakes up from a coma to a world that's vastly different from the one that he went into the coma in. Yeah. Because we pity him absolutely. Yeah. And you know, we get to learn the world with him. Yeah. And so we don't need all the answers because he doesn't need all the answers. He just needs to figure out how to walk. Don't dead open inside, you know, that's nothing. So yeah, we feel pity for him. It's amazing that he actually managed

to survive at all because he, and I don't mean like those first 10 minutes because yes, that's also amazing. But he's acting in a moral, reasonable, unselfish way when he awakens too. And, and no denying that, right? And every decision he makes in this brave new world of like everybody's infected, he doesn't even know everybody's affected yet, but there's zombies everywhere. He anguishes over his decisions that he makes that end up affecting the first few

groups of people he spends time with. I'm fine with that. He is a moral character. But, and there's a huge but here, when he reunites with his partner and his wife and his son and a bunch of folks who've gathered together, he immediately assumes a leadership position despite being the least qualified person to be in leadership. He doesn't know the world and he usurps Shane's position of power as leader of the group. Shane has been the one who's been there the whole time and kept everybody alive, the group. Shane has been the one who's been there the whole time and kept everybody alive, um, but he, he subverts him and, and everything that Shane has done to keep everyone alive during these uncertain times. There's nothing wrong with what Shane was doing at this point. Now, I don't

know if you've seen the first episode, um, walking it. Okay. Yeah. So that Shane is making them keep the fire down to the embers. There are no blazes, no noises. Like he is, you know, go on a buddy system. In fact, at this point, there's nothing wrong with what Shane is doing. Not even a moral issue. In fact, it could be argued that Shane doesn't start doing wrong by other people until his position is inexplicably cut out from under him by his ignorant to the world usurper of a friend who literally has nowhere near the experience that Shane does. And that's the crux of who Rick Grimes is.

He is the usurper of whatever system is in place no matter how well it works Everywhere he goes Every single society he interacts with doesn't fit his particular morality which may well be outdated and it leads to the death of that society as it stood so that society as it stood. So Shane's camp, right in the quarry. First thing he does with the survivor camp is to upend it completely and insist that they go to the CDC. When he has absolutely no idea what has survivor, what has collapsed. Not let's make a scouting mission. Not I will go and explore and I'll report back. Just we should all go. And the result is the survivor's camp gets disheveled, half of them go away, and then the CDC gets blown up.

Okay. In the second season, they invade a farm and absolutely upend the order that Herschel has set up there. And this is where Shane absolutely flips out, which is precipitated by Rick's insistence that he is the leader not Shane in this new world, again, despite a total lack of qualification. Rick ends up killing Shane after refusing to hear Shane's side of things and getting more people killed.

And then they leave the farm behind, having torched it, taking stragglers along with them. And if I recall, Gregory correctly, he even says to the group that they will do what he says because this is not a democracy. Yeah. Which I'm cool with it's not a democracy. I get that. You absolutely need like some total control here

to keep people alive. You want to be in our group. You got to do it this way. But you're still applying old world morality, otherwise, which was based on a democracy and a social contract that that depended on it. So, that's the end of season two, then end up in a prison, which he invades, pushes aside the inhabitants and annexes their members, which is going to say white southern guy with a gun. Yeah, and then he uses that prison as a base to invade a nearby town, eventually so upsetting the

order of that place that it collapses and absorbs those people into his prison society. And I'm not saying and I don't know how far you got into it, but this is where he's fighting with the governor. Yeah, no, I, I, I have familiar with the comic plot line. Okay. At the point of encountering the governor and that whole conflict. Sure. The TV show. Not as much.

Okay. Well, the governor is running a city and they have like Gladiator fights in front of zombies Uh, and the zombies are kind of within reach and it's it's gross and terrible And I'm not even saying that the governor is playing with a full deck or morally good as a person But during an unstable time he built a stable town Yeah, and same for the guys in the prison. They had something stable going there. Same thing for Herschel's farm. Same thing for Shane Survivor Camp.

Same thing for the guy in the CDC. Eventually, Rick runs into the cannibals at Terminus and the roving band of claimers. And there's some truly awful, awful people involved here. There are cannibals. The claimers are rapists. But they basically get the same treatment as other not so bad people that Rick has run into. So he is just willy-nilly destroying everything he runs into.

And for Rick, it's all the same. If they don't fit his vision of how things should be based on what he upheld prior to his coma, he's going to burn it the fuck down. This is even when they get to a town called Alexandria where you had an elected official who actually like was rebuilding a town and her husband was this engineer and stuff like that. Yeah.

Alexandria was working great until they meet Rick. He even has a plan for an insurrection. Should his bad behavior get him banned? Instead, everyone is distracted by an accidental murder and Rick gets to kill the guy in front of everybody. And even then he's not satisfied. He annexes the place. He redirects what they're doing to fit his vision and then comes the conflict with the Saviors, which is like the Negan group and stuff like that. And Rick recruits and hectors multiple groups into joining him, shifting the power and the alliances in the region. Again, the Saviors are not good people,

but this all fits with his prior patterns every little bit of it. You even forces ocean side to surrender their weapons to him since they refuse to fight. Kingdom, hilltop, and Alexandria all suffer mightily in this war. And when all is said and done, many are killed who would not have been. And I'm not saying their lives were great, but being dead sucks a lot more than being alive most of the time. And then instead of doing what everyone demands he do by killing me again, he imposes his own morality on all the groups, all but sundering the alliances that he forced into being and he keeps Nege in alive. Now, the proof that he is the disrupting agent is when he goes away. He gets absented. I think he gets kidnapped by Janus, people on a helicopter. People actually find their own balance,

People actually find their own balance, but it's also forever stained by his decisions because people are kind of sticking to what he wanted on some levels and on others they're kind of adjusting. But everybody, everywhere is trying to find ways to deal with the problems. And yet his stain is kind of just, you know, infected everything. They only fight defensive wars when he's gone. They make treaties with nomadic sickos, who are called the whispers, and these are people who pretend to be zombies.

In fact, while Rick has gone, everybody struggles a lot less without a morality that's imposed upon them. They all seem to find their guidance from within. Even Negan has a self-reflective time and he comes to a greater peace within himself. Everybody starts to be a lot more practical about things. Rick is the walking dead.

He brings death everywhere he goes. He disrupts the lives of everyone around him and he refuses to let go of the old world and forge the new one. In other words, he's already died. The world he upheld was an unjust world. And instead of creating a new, just world, he plunged everyone into the death that he was bringing with him.

He is not a hero, he is a villain. Okay. I totally follow the train of thought. I have an alternative kind of concept. Is Shiva destroyer of worlds? Well, there's that. But not where I was going. What if he's Gulliver?

Go on. So he doesn't pee on anybody to put him out. He's Gulliver. Go on. So, um... He doesn't pee on anybody to put him out. Yeah, okay, well there's that. But, you know, Gulliver, um, winds up in Lilliput and then Gig societies, but in every one of those societies, he sounds like colonialism to be honest. Yeah, well, yeah, but he completely, yeah, he, like, just, you know, completely fucks Liliput up entirely, which is the part of the story most everybody's familiar with.

But then he winds up in Giganta where roles are reversed physically. And he still winds up being kind of an agent of chaos. Then he winds up in the land of the Wynnums, which is a satire on both academia and high flutin philosophy and on nobility and bureaucracy, kind of often the elite. Yeah. And in every, and in every place, Galover shows up and he is not crying to cause trouble, but he winds up doing it. Now, in Rick's case, he's not trying actively to hurt things, but he is bringing his own

point of view. And insisting upon it. Well, yeah, insisting upon it. And, you know, yeah, I don't, having pointed out the parallel, the insisting upon it is I think worth a dividing line lies. Yeah. Yeah. And we say, though, that your parallel is still talking about colonialism.

Yeah, I was going to say your parallel absolutely brings it into colonialism slash manifest destiny. Oh Yeah, you know, okay. Yeah. Yeah So anyway, all right. That's that's my first one who you got. Okay So my first one is a pair of heroes Who aren't and I made mention of them in a in a different episode? and here I'm kind of going to rip them apart. Peregrin II can marry a brandy buck.

Oh, yeah, yeah. So they are supposed to be a pair of young men who show deep loyalty and resilience in the face of hardship. They volunteer to join the ring quest to help out their cousin Frodo. Right. They're the boys that went to sign up as pals down the graph of this. And they wind up being witnesses to crucial moments in the war of the ring.

They wind up, you know, let's see, Pippin winds up nearly getting killed by Denethor and Mary is there when the Witch King is defeated and then and then travels to the Black Gate and is there at the Battle of the Moranon. Who do you think had it harder? Oh, the two of them? Yeah. Not who was in more peril, but who had it harder? Who had a more difficult time?

Yeah. Oh, that's a bad, that's a tough question. I think having to deal with Denathor makes for makes for a pretty shitty time. Yeah, I was thinking Pippin' ain't easy. Yeah, fuck. God, damn it. Good evening, sir. Son of a bitch. That's bitch. God damn it. So you know the intent what we're

supposed to think of these of these two young men is that you know they are they're you know well-meaning, upstanding, you know young men from good families. And and there's there's supposed to be a probation we're supposed to feel you know proud of them and and. Their journey is one that is that is you know symbolic of of the growth and development from youth into adulthood. And the thing is, they're actually both a pair of upper class stoner tweets. Like, they are not villains. Like, I'm not going to try to say that either one is a villain. Okay. But they are a pair of upper class stone or twins.

We literally first meet them in the middle of commission of felony trespass. They, they, they, oh, there's Dylan mushrooms, right? Yeah, they, they have literally, they have literally left positions of significant privilege. Remember that both of them are sions of very important Hobbit families with lots of property. They are from Bilbo and Frodo's social stratum within Hobbit society.

They are gentry. But what are they doing for kicks? They're going out into farmer maggots field and and stealing shit They're committing crop theft Which I mean you can argue what's what's the value of mushrooms on the street depending on the kind of mushrooms? Sure, it's it's you know petty theft But still there are a couple of rich kids out committing petty theft for thrills and you know, that's gonna say they can afford the goddamn mushrooms. They can pay for them. Right precisely, right?

and They they wind up you know, they they kind of join Frodo Almost like they're going on a leisure hike. Yeah, Like, oh, it's Wednesday. Sure, I'll join you. Yeah, sure. Well, come along, you know, um, and I mean, they very quickly, you know, kind of realize they're in over their heads, but it never, it doesn't quite, it, it, it gets through to them that they're in over their heads, but they never quite stop being twits, hip and particularly, right? Uh has a problem with this, which is why I frequently say on my good days, I'm, I'm marrying on a bad day. I'm, I'm, I'm, Pippin. Um, but, you know,

Pippin literally, literally fucks up twice, putting the whole party in danger. Uh-huh. He's the one that knocks the armor down the well. Yes, he's the one who not armor. No, no, no, no, it's a court. A fallen dwarf. That's what it is. He, because he can't keep his fucking mitts to himself, he's got a, you know, far around with the arrows sticking out of the dead body of a fallen dwarf.

Like, come on, have some respect for the dead, you little twit. He winds up causing an armored dwarf corpse to fall down a well, uh, sent basically awakening the ballrog. Let's not lie, right? Right. Uh, so, so literally get to Gandalf kill. It's only because, you know, Gandalf is, you know, a cheat as living cheat code. Yeah, that really manages to come back. And then later on, again, he can't keep his myths to himself. He's like a fucking toddler. Like, I just wanted to look at it. Do you have to look with your fingers? Don't touch shit when the wizard tells you to leave the bundle with the with the possessed crystal ball in it alone,

leave it the fuck alone. How old are you five? Yeah. So, you know, and by doing that, you know, Error Gorn and Gandalf figure out kind of how to recover from that. Right. But still, it's a dipshit move that very nearly gets everybody killed. Yes. And, you know, then they wind up in, they get sent in different directions because Gandalf

is like, you're too dangerous to be left on your own. You fucking come in with me. I have to keep you literally with your arms length and he brings Pippin along with him. Who then shows up and then gets made squire to Denathor, to which Gandalf was like, well, congratulations, you've managed to get yourself promoted above your level of competence. Yet again, fuck with. And then Mary winds up going with the rest of the group to Rohan, where he winds up getting himself squired to Thayoden. And then winds up being there when Thayoden

is killed by the witch king and the witch king is then in turn slain. Right. And then, you know, is then in turn slain. Right. And then, you know, let's see, of the two of them, then, Pippin very nearly winds up getting set on fire with Farmir. Uh-huh. And fortunately Farmir and Pippin managed to get saved from that.

Right. And then while Mary is lying in the houses of healing recovering from the death aura of the fallen witch king, Pippin winds up going to the moron on gate and, you know, nearly gets killed by having a troll fall on him in death. And then, so after that's all over, they head back to the shire, and they wind up then returning to positions of social standing, and everybody talks about how lordly they are. And they wind up essentially being semi-futal, rulers, not rulers, but, you know, high-rise, civic leaders though. Yeah, they're in positions of civic standing. They're the ones that fight off Sauron

or Sauron on in Wormtongue, right? Yes, they are instrumental in the books. They're instrumental in driving off Sharky and Wormy. But they still wind up in, you know, as you say, a position of civic leadership, kind of having fallen backward into it the whole way along the ring quest.

And like they are emblematic of everything that's wrong with nepotism in an advanced society. Like in the end, they get back to the return to the shire. And they have the opportunity to divest themselves and their families of their one-percent or status they could do things to try to improve the standard of living in the shire. We don't hear about them doing any of that. They just, you know, spread around in their old uniforms, like, you know, veterans who can't let go

of their service time. Right. So yeah. Yeah, they're, they're, they're upper class twits. No, okay. They're not, they're not heroes. They're just, they're upper class twits. Okay. And yeah, yeah per class twins. Okay. And who are?

Yeah. Yeah. Heroes who are. So that's my that's my first entry. Okay. I've got another one. Okay. And I have to tread lightly with this one because she might be the first woman on my list. And I don't want to come off off. Oh,

massage anistic. Butic is definitely a hero who isn't. Okay. Jenny from Forest Gump. I don't think you need to tread too terribly gently. Okay. I'm, so I don't think there are very many people who watch that film who carried terribly sympathetic

feelings for me. See, and I'm going to try to thread that needle because I do want to show sympathy for, I mean, she, yeah, okay. So at no point after her childhood, does she not treat him as a means to an end? So I'm going to leave her childhood alone alone other than to say she was raised with horrifying abuse and it definitely pushed her into the realm of repeating that abuse. And therapy absolutely was not really a thing through most of Forest Gump's time. But Jenny still used her childhood. But Jenny still used her childhood.

Rather, she used her childhood connection with forest to manipulate him multiple times. As an adult, she blurs the lines of friendship. Not really obtaining his consent in the process, by the way. Now, again, I'm gonna try to, you know, thread a needle here, she's beautiful. And I've been brought to speechlessness by a beard breast before as well. Okay, yeah, there. But She's transgressing on the friendship without crossing any ethical lines by doing that. I'm gonna say

Okay, so she bears her breast to him in the dorm room brings him to orgasm to my, I think, letting him touch her breast. Again, didn't really secure his consent, but it was the 1960s, and I think that men have the ability to stop things if they didn't want to do them. Now he was of diminished capacity. I don't want to say he was incapable of giving consent. But it's a smudging of a gray area there. Certainly transgressing on the friendship. I'm going to not take off points for ethics.

I'm going to not take off points for ethics. Okay. Now, he goes off to boot camp shortly after that. And she gets expelled from school because it's the United States in the 1960s, and a woman owning her own sex is unacceptable in most forms. While he is on leave from boot camp, Forest tracks her down to a strip club where she's finally playing music for an audience. He ends up interrupting her set to beat up some very handsy customers, which gets her fired. She didn't ask for that.

And their whole relationship is frankly a problem, to be honest, because he's doing the savior shit and then she gets mad at him for it. And she doesn't really ask him to rescue her and then she'll transgress in some way too. So it's just, it's, but outside the club, she scolds him for trying to protect her. Cool. He admits for the first time that he loves her,

but she rebukes his claim and says she doesn't believe that forest is capable of knowing what love is. And if that's your view on the man, then maybe don't let him touch your tit. Maybe. And that right there calls into question the night in the dorm, right? And her entire treatment of him afterwards. So from there, she literally flees him by hitching a ride from a stranger in a pickup truck. Like, not only do you not know what love is, but I'm going to go spend time with this stranger instead of with you. Now, before leaving, before she leaves, he does tell her he's going to Vietnam, it's this whole other country, and she leaves. She tells me to be safe and she leaves. She's in for some really hard times.

She ends up homeless, drug-addled, and involved in a number of different movements. She ends up homeless, drug-addled, and involved in a number of different movements. And by the time he catches back up to her, she ends up with yet another abusive prick in Washington, DC, whom forest punches, handedly, but with whom she leaves again on the next morning regardless. And before she leaves, she gives her congressional, he gives her his congressional medal of honor, crediting her for his, I don't know if it was a medal of honor. It was certainly a bravery citation and he's given it, it's given to him by the president. But anyway, before she leaves, before she leaves, he gives that tour, credits her with his earning it and called her his girl.

And she remarks to him, I'll always be your girl before getting on the bus. So yet again, she's leaving, which that's her MO, but this time, instead of saying, you don't know what love is, a lot of Buffalo Bill, instead she's saying, I'll always be your girl, which is like... Instead, she's saying, I'll always be your girl, which is like, Yeah, it's quite the mixed message to a guy whom she's already told, you know, you don't know what love is. So like fish or cut bait And I get that she's messed up. Oh, did you? It was it was the metal of honor. Okay. Cool. Naturally. Of course it was. Jamie Christmas. Yeah. But she's still responsible for the manipulations that she perpetrates

on a man whose ability to give consent is in question throughout his adult life. I mean, frankly, I don't think they should have recruited him for the army. But after getting further down the route, whole vicious self abuse and unhealthy behaviors, Jenny has a rock bottom moment, Coke strewn, physically abused and emotionally abused, she nearly ends her life. But instead, she steps back from the ledge, seeks to rebuild herself, and this is where her villain turn actually occurs. Prior to this, she's fucked up. She's absolutely fucked up in the head, and she's trying to figure shit out, and she's doing a very bad job of it, but at this point, she becomes a villain. Because one day, she arrives at Forest's home unannounced and stays with him for a while.

This is entirely because she needs a safe place to stay and she knows that he'll give her that because she's always going to be his girl. She sleeps excessively prompting him to remark that it's as if she hasn't slept in years. And every morning they'd walk outside often and while he did all the talking, sharing his wars, ping pong, his shrimping tails, and his own mom going to heaven where her mother was, stories, Jenny would listen and not offer much else, which is fine, but it is pretty one-sided. And it allows him to think that there's more there than there is.

The two do enjoy each other's company for a few more weeks and force picks flowers for her on the daily and the two bond over dancing and gifts. And she's clearly found a healing place in herself and isn't a much better place for having been with him, which is lovely. Except remember what I said earlier on? She sees him as a means to an end. And so one evening he proposes to her and she declines saying, you don't want to marry me. Now her hesitation prompts him to exclaim, I'm not a smart man, but I know what love And so one evening he proposes to her and she declines saying you don't want to marry me

Now her hesitation prompts him to exclaim I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is which we've all seen right Before he steps outside That night she climbs into bed with forest. She tells him that she does indeed love him Which is the first time she'd knitted out loud and she makes love to him for the first time The following morning she leaves in a taxi. There's always a vehicle separating them. It's interesting because he goes for a run. Like, it's never a vehicle. Yeah. He's always running. Now they meet again in the 1980s at Jenny's apartment and finally she begins to apologize for all the times in the past that she's acted badly toward him as a result of her own personal problems.

Now, I do think she genuinely means that she is sorry, but I also think she's still using him and manipulating. Then she's interrupted by a woman dropping off her little boy, whom she introduces to Forrest, calling Forrest a very good friend from her childhood. The boy runs along because Gen X and Forest. I feel that. I feel that. So hard. Which means Forest gum son, spoiler alert, his kid, is R.H. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, she, she, Forest remarks, gladly, that she became a mama. and she tells forest that her son is named forest junior after his daddy. And of course he asks if she knows another man named forest

and she replies, no, you're his daddy forest. And that sends him into shock. She assures him he didn't do anything wrong. No shit. Yeah. Well, yeah. She later reveals to him that she is ill and she's suffering from an unknown virus with no cure.

Now some say it was HIV AIDS and others say it was hepatitis C. Okay. Both of which are sexually transmittable diseases. And they can be passed on to their child. And while it was the 1970s, early 1980s, it's entirely true that she put forest and her son at risk of contracting said disease. Now I will allow for ignorance. She did not knowingly do that. But good. God. She didn't reach out to him.

She denies him fatherhood and dadhood, both things until she notices that she's not getting better from being sick. until she notices that she's not getting better from being sick. And because he doesn't know any better, to his credit, Forest asked Jenny and little Forest to come live with him, where he promises to take care of both of them. Jenny asks Forest if he'll marry her and he gladly agrees, and the two marry soon thereafter in a ceremony at the house once owned by Forest's mother. She's using him all the way to the end. She's using him all the way to the end. And maybe that's the best she can do

because therapy wasn't quite a thing, but D-minus is the best. Yeah. He deserves better. And so she honestly, but she was still super abusive toward him. Yeah. So she's, by no means a hero.

Yeah, so she's okay. No means a hero Okay, yeah, no, I I will totally go along with that take yeah I remember being mad at the end of the movie in 1994 Yeah, well, I think I was people were I don't I don't think I don't think nobody was at first Everybody was like oh my god What a wonderful movie look did you see how he was there for it? It was like such a liberal recasting of yeah, okay Pierreying you know, sorry about your black Panther party like all that shit like the yeah tremendous racial politics of the time and the social and gender politics of the time Absolutely just glossed over in this isn't this charming that he was there at every moment kind of shit and everybody loved it because it was it was boomer porn. You know, because

there's 94 so yeah so there you go. So yeah. So all right. All right. Next. Well, it was inevitable. Last time we did this, I managed to avoid it, but here it is, the 40k reference, 40k link. I'm going to talk about Conrad and Kurs. And so I've spoken about several of the primarks before. And this is 21 of them. Yes. Well, 20. And then, and then there were 18. Oh, but that we discovered that there was a 20 at 21st.

Well, there were there were 20 of them, but the 20th was twins. Right. So, yeah, so 21 And and then me this this is all I remember. Okay, and and then we're night and then we're 18 right or 19 because yeah Because the the second and the 11th Legion's got got something happened to them yeah and their primarch disappeared we don't know what one one theory of course is that

lemon rust the leader of the sixth legion was sent to sanction two of them sanctioned in scare quotes and and the joke there is lemon Russ comes back from having sanctioned one of the two legions and he says to his brother's brothers I have returned to Tara I completed my mission of eliminating the 11th Legion and his brothers look at him and they blink they say Russ the 11th Legion yes the 11th Legion, yes, the 11th Legion, the one one Legion. Russ, um, in, in hi gothic, one one is two. That's Roman numerals. Oh, oh, uh, yeah, I got to go do a thing. I'll be back in a minute. You know, um, because, you know, barbarian can't read. So, uh, but he's not who I'm talking about, but I had to get that joke out of my system. Um, Conrad Curz was, um, one of the 21

Red Curves was one of the 21 primarks. And in his case, when all of the primarks got scattered on the solar winds to the distances of the cosmos, he wound up on the planet Nostromo, which was shrouded by perpetual night. And in the pitch black darkness of that planet, he found himself without a teacher, without a mentor figure, without a parent figure to take over. He was out, essentially surviving on the streets of a hyper-violent, terrifying urban hellscape under artificial lighting, which was unreliable and barely there. And his very first encounters, first conscious encounter with humanity was violence. And the strong praying upon the weak and fear alerted everything. And over the course of his childhood into his adulthood, he wound up making a name for himself as the Knight Haunter. And he turned Nostromo from a crime-ridden hellscape into a very,

very carefully law abiding civilization. Because if the Knight Haunter found out that you had violated the law, you would be found rent rent limb from limb, and your skin would be a cape somewhere. And so he took the fear that criminals and gang members and the nobility of the planet used to subjugate the innocence of the society. He took that fear and he weaponized it

against the criminals themselves. I'm having a hard time. Is this a hero who isn't or a villain who isn't? This is a villain who isn't. Okay. Because making an apology for Batman. Well, that's one of the, that's because Batman is very clearly one of these sources that they took and they went, yeah, let's dial this up to like 20. 11 is not high enough. We're going to, we're going to, because this is for him or 40k and we've got to crank everything up way past 11. And so he becomes essentially the shadow ruler of no stromo

and then the emperor shows up and says, all right, all right, you have imposed order on a place that had been utter chaos and you have done it through psychological brute, I mean, it's brute force psychological manipulation, but it's still psychological manipulation. You have shown yourself capable of command of my legions and he gave him command of a legion and the knight Haunter became the leader of the knight lords.

Okay. the night Haunter became the leader of the night lords. Okay. And in the setting, he is a villain because he believes the planet with his legion bringing some of the natives of the planet and having some of the natives of the planet turned into spacebarines to join the Legion then head off. And they are remarkably efficient at capturing worlds after only inflicting a relatively small number of casualties because the way they strike is so terrifying that that planets

surrender. And then eventually the moment you find out that it's the night lords in orbit over your planet, you just, you just fucking surrender. Right. Admiral Thrawn made good use of this with a close device and a little bit of experience. Yes, yes.

Yes. Fear will keep the outlying systems in line. Well, that was, that was the Tarkin doctrine. Yeah, well, yes, I got an old Thrawn used a version of it. Yeah. Yeah, well, yes, I got on. The one used a version of it, yeah. Yeah. The Thrawn doctrine is a corollary to the... You just said it. Tarkin doctrine.

Tarkin doctrine. Well, so what went on to happening is a while night haunt orrad Curse is gone, the people who he had been keeping under control because they were so terrified of him slipped back into all of their old habits. Okay. And pretty soon, the people that are getting sent to join his legion while it's on crusade are themselves vicious criminals, murderers, and the drags of society are being turned into space marines and sent off to join his legion where the psychological warfare he's using becomes an excuse for some of the members of his legion to engage in their most

sadistic impulses. Okay, okay. And he returns to his planet to see what has happened in his absence. And he winds up basically murdering the rulers of the planet and then castigates the emperor for allowing him to become the monster that he realizes he is and he winds up prophesying one of the other things about Conrad Curse is he has a psychic gift he is precognitive. Okay. And he sees that the emperor is going or that someone working for

the emperor is going to send an assassin to kill him. And he says the very fact that they're going to send an assassin to kill me right. Vindicates me. Right. Right. You know, now that I'm now that I'm once I'm no longer useful, you know, then this is what happens. And he winds up going after, he gleefully joins the War Masters campaign to overthrow the Emperor. Sure. And over the course of multiple novels in the horse heresy series, he becomes kind of the boogie man amongst the primarks. He and Lionel Johnson particularly wind up having several back and forths. We're Lionel Johnson who is considered possibly the best, the most skilled physical warrior

of all of them in one- one combat, winds up repeatedly going after curves, who is always trying to hit him from his blind side and engages in cat and mouse games, and these kinds of things. And he is portrayed as this imaginary facereal killer became a primark kind of thing. And so the depiction is very much in that vein. Well, but here's the thing. And this is where I'm going to say, I don't think he's a villain. I think the villain here is the emperor in the first place

just as Kurs says. I think he has a meaningful point. You'll notice if you listen to his name, his name is Conrad Kurs. Kurs, of course, is the commander of the outpost that the protagonist is sent to find in the heart of darkness written by James Conrad. And that whole work is an examination of the corruption that happens when someone is removed from society or when one is placed in a position where the rules of what Conrad considered civilized society are no longer enforced.

Right. You're being sent out here and you know, all we care is that you send the rubber back and whatever you got to do to do that. Extraterminate the broods. Yes. Yeah. And Conrad curves, primark of the Night Lords, winds up being stuck in that situation as a literal child with no prior life experience and no socialization

of any kind. And so if he's going to make the world a better place, the only way he can make his world a better place is through the tools that he has seen. And so in the end, again, as it turns out, the bad guy here is the super psychic from Earth who wants to unify the human race by force and doesn't care about how many human beings he kills as long as the race survives, because individual life, liberty, and individual rights don't matter in the face of the needs of the species. and, you know, individual rights don't matter in the face of the needs of the species. Right.

Which is a very, very top down authoritarian, I mean, I'm gonna say fascist, you know, fascism never gets that big. Right. Like they're not, they're not talking about species scale, they're talking about nation scale, but it's still the same line. And it's still being used to crush individual liberty and curves. Curse was designed to be a tool in that effort.

And curves did what he was designed to do. Okay. So that's that's my that's my villain who who maybe doesn't deserve to be called one. Okay. Yeah. I I'm not fully sold just largely because you do bad things, you're a bad person. Yeah, I know, yeah, I get that. But, okay, yeah. Well I have another hero who isn't, I think I don't have any more villains who aren't, I think there's just heroes who aren't.

All right, okay. You may have heard of him, read Richards. Yeah, okay. You may have heard of him read Richards. Yeah, yeah, I mean we could say moving on but I'm gonna cut read Richards a check Yeah, yeah, so first of all he's part of the Illuminati like a founding member of the Illuminati which Why do they even exist the Omanotti, which why do they even exist? They exist because they know better. Exactly. I mean, duh.

Yeah. Like his toxic brainiac self is already prone to doing anyway. But now he's surrounded by powerful enablers that he can kebal with. And while this is awful, he kept his membership to this group's secret even from his wife. Well, he keeps all kinds of shit secret from his wife. Well, and more on that abusive relationship later. But while he's in the Illuminati, he's also part of the decision to banish the Hulk without his consent from Earth just in time for the Civil War, by the way, which he kind of maybe saw coming.

They also, in secret, traveled to the scroll home world to threaten them and to not doing things prior to the Civil War. This group of super smart secret fools got themselves captured, which of course allowed the scrolls to study and perfect their duplication of a humanity, which leads to the secret invasion. All right. So that's the Illuminati piece. I could talk about how he's part of the Council of Reed Richards' like because the Illuminati is too stupid. So then he meets with the extra galactic group of all the Reed Richards' and all the other dimensions. Yeah, dimensions. Okay, extra-dimensional. Yeah. And at one point, he decides he has

to kill them all. So, okay, wait. So you're telling me, you're telling me that the gag and Rick and Morty about the council of ricks is like, yes, they, okay. Yep. 100%. Okay. All right. Yeah. At one point, he self-diagnosis. Yeah, hold on. Sure. Wait, stop. Okay. So read Richards. Yes. Read Richards.

That guy. Form like realizes that there are, you know, many, many, many, many, many versions of him from multiple dimensions. And he decides at one point he has to kill them all. Yes. Isn't that the storyline for Kang the conqueror? You know who is the direct descendant of Reed Richards? Because time travel, of course. All right, anyway.

Okay, good, there that's all right. So he just comes naturally. All right, cool. So carry on. Yeah. Like, it just sounds me that like, All right. Cool. So, carry on. Yeah. Like, it just sounds me that like, no, it doesn't astound me. Actually, just if I were Reed Richards, I would have sex with as many of the other me as as possible.

Okay. You know, that's what I would do. I wouldn't think I got to kill all these fuckers because they're clearly dangerous because they're like me. I'd be like, they know what I like. They know what I would do. I wouldn't think I got to kill all these fuckers because they're clearly dangerous because they're like me. I'd be like, they know what I like. They know what I want. Well, okay, we've established that you lean more in the direction of Bonobo than Chim.

Yes. So, there it's just that's the difference. Yeah. Richard's is 110% Chimp. No, he's been with 300% of all. Yeah. He's from class cooperation. I'm in charge, fucker. And he has a tail. Yeah. So yeah. Okay. So now, so that's, that's all awful. He also at one point, a friend of the show show Gabriel Cruz pointed out he self diagnosed himself as having autism and then sought to cure it in his son.

So he Jenny McCarthy. So that's awful. But that didn't even make my list really. Because I'd written out this this list about Reed Richards prior to talking with Gabriel about that. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go piece by piece through the Fantastic Four.

He treats Ben Grimm in equal parts sad and awful ways. He feels guilty for Ben's condition because Ben can't pass for human in any way. But he also legit has a chance to let Ben be Ben again. And early on, and instead of taking it and doing without Ben's enhanced might, Reed decides to choose against Ben's actual wishes to re-thingify him in their efforts to take back the backster building from Dr. Doom. re- thingify him in their efforts to take back the backster building from Dr. Doom. Wow, over over a building. Yeah, like it's not even we got to save the world. Right. This is not okay by any stretch. Wow. He also totally belittles Ben the whole time and to Elastor Accent Johnny repeatedly throughout

their time together and he verbally and psychologically abuses them while they're working for him. Oh, well, yeah. Yeah. So now let's talk about how he treats his wife. He's abusive as fuck. He demeans her in front of people. He demeans her privately. He actually strikes her at one point.

Here's a few quotes. And before I start, I won't actually enter into evidence the time that he antagonized her to snap her out of her malice personality. Okay. Because I don't think that's genuinely abusive given the specificity of the malice personality and how it was kind of working its way through her But same thing with the times that they were possessed or otherwise not in the right minds

I don't I don't think you can Attack him for that and frankly, I don't need to because I've got tons of other shit that he said to her when both of them were sober So for instance She's mentioning that she needs to clean up after a battle, right? Number one, he hasn't made all the fucking Roombas. Number two, he says, just so long as you do it silently. You're still married. Try it. What? What? Right? No, man. Yeah, like, wow. At one point, she warns him not to get too close to the danger. Um, because it's a man writing her, um, and he says, quote, stop sounding like a wife and find me that gun lady

Here's another quote that I really like I've been a blind and considerate fool But I'm going to make up for it. I want you to buy a whole new wardrobe and then you and I will do the town like it's never been done before Like seriously like be shitty to her and then buy her new stuff. Like, yeah, well, yeah. It I mean, that's that's some high level abuse shit. Yeah. And also, you got to get a new one because I don't want to go out without you or I don't want to go out with you and your old shit. That's the implication as well.

But then quote, darling, I don't know what to say. Fine. Why should be kissed and not heard? That's her response to what he just offered. And that's his response. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, part of this is 60s.

Yeah. Part of this is who was doing the writing when it was being done in who audience the intended audience was. Yep, absolutely. So I mean, I mean, there's that but wow. Yeah, just like even by the standard of the day, that's right. Fucked up. Now, after they've been married for a while, they have kids and she's ready to leave them again. And she says, quote, I love her son as much as you do as much as anyone could. But in the heat of battle, you didn't think of me as a member of the team, not even as a wife, only as the mother of your child. I won't accept that read, not now, not ever. So until you feel you can treat me as an equal, I've made up my mind.

I'm taking little Franklin and I'm leaving, leaving you, leaving me fantastic for. Okay, his response to that, at least that way our son will get a little attention. And he doesn't let up. She responds by telling him a few things on her way out the door, which he interrupts and says, don't talk it to death, lady. If you're going to go, then go. She's about to dissolve his family because he won't treat her like an equal. And he's

barking orders to her and not giving a shit about his kid. Yeah. Another time before they were actually married, Reed, Richard says this to his then fiance, quote, just like a woman, everything I do is for your own good, but your two scatterbrained and emotional to realize it. Well, all right, I can play it your two, your way too, Miss Storm. I can play it your two your way to Miss Storm. So that's that's the interpersonal relationship part. Has has Sue ever ever spoken to Shehulk about

seeking out shelter or her? You know, there was opportunity to when she helped join the Fantastic Four, but I never saw that scene. So yeah. Yeah. Now what gets me, what, what always gets me is, is the fact that he created a secret prison for people who didn't divulge their identity during the Civil War. Right. The negative zone prison, which was instrumental in sending superheroes to a prison in another dimension without trials, as part of his deluded sense of the importance of following an unjust law.

And he even said, even if it's unjust, we have to wait for it to work its way through before we can, you know, change it. So lawful asshole. Yeah. He has this really good heart to heart with Spider-Man in the negative zone talking about his uncle who got McCarthy and he basically came down on the wrong side of that. And Spider-Man straight up, he's like, yeah, my uncle should have just turned, man. Like he fucking ruined his life, he should have just turned. And it's like, it shouldn't have happened, bro.

Like, and what's interesting was, Spider-Man actually says to him, you know, I think I would have liked your uncle, but you loved him. As in like, hey, man, you're fucked. Yeah. Yeah. At one point, he also turned a bunch of scrolls into cows and just left

just their cows from then on out. They're trapped as cows. They ended up, of course, getting eaten and the people, the biker gang that eats them ends up being really good scroll hunters because apparently you can see scrolls if you've consumed them. It's weird, but like he straight up turned them into cows.

What the fuck do you think was gonna happen to cows? Like we eat hamburger, like that's a thing. And he was just like, happen to cows. Like, we eat hamburger. Like, that's a thing. And he is just like, yeah, there cows now, we can ignore that forever. Read Richard. That's like, that's like Dungeons and Dragons wizard level thinking I can just,

all the more from there, not a problem anymore, moving on. Right. On to the next random encounter. Absolutely. Like, I have the wizard to go match with or some on. Right. On to the next random encounter. Absolutely. Like I have the wizard to go match with or some shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's bizarre. He's all about ultimately violating consent because he knows best. Like that time that he cloned Thor without Thor knowing which ended up killing Bill Foster, who was a very good friend of Ben Grims, and also a guy who didn't get a fair trial before being executed by Frankenstein's monster. Yeah.

He literally killed a man and a friend through his own creation based on another friend's unwitting DNA contribution. Yeah. And this above all else is the shit that Lex Luthor would look at and go, I mean, I guess it doesn't seem a little evil to you though. Like, yeah, that's, that's maybe dial it back there, bro. Right. Pull it back, man. So yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's read Richards. So who you got? Yeah. I am, I am, I don't have anybody right now. Well, well, has run dry. All right. Then I will take this opportunity to take on Jack Shepherd from lost to them. Oh, yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I'm taking on lost Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Literally Jack shabbered. Yeah. Yeah. His dad Christian shabbered. All right. Yeah. Now I got to tell you I love the way through, but that's a hell of a commitment. The protagonist in Lost is a villain similar to Rick Grimes, though. He does what he thinks needs to happen, but he does it regardless of other people's will and he does that repeatedly. And at first, it absolutely made sense.

Everybody knew basically the same amount of shit and he took some liberties. He absolutely did because he didn't want them to panic and people saw him as a leader and he kept things from them because he didn't want to crush their hope because, you know, we got to keep hope alive because it might be a little while till they find us. And he knew in that early post crash time that hope would keep a few people alive, like specifically rose, right? Shannon is actually a good example too. The hot blonde gal. And I'm fine with most of that to be perfectly honest. And then his alliances

of convenience has failed attempts at playing the long game, even as emotional inconsistency and borderline abuse with Kate. I'm actually kind of cool with all that too because he's going through shit at the same time. They're all damaged people who've trauma bonded, which is relying on old programming in a new world. I'm pretty cool with that. He's quick to trust, but at the same time, he's quick to rescind that trust when someone else slips up. slips up. Lock, Kate, Boone, Charlie, fucking Ben, even pretty much all the white folks plus on Alucía. Fine, I get it. He's got daddy issues, trust issues. And I don't think that Jack should be flawless. That's not the point of lost. Everyone's flaws were made manifest to them by the island. Everybody dealt with those flaws in different ways,

and in many ways the island was their chance to discover themselves. Locke was frankly no better, but Jackson's insistence on keeping a moral center while constantly untethering himself from that same moral center due to his incomplete understanding of what was going on. That led to some pretty hard,

full, harmful situations for everyone else on the island. So kind of a problem there. But for me, it's actually really early on when he crosses the line. It's when he gets to the point where he sanctions torture that I start to struggle. So in the first season, he does anguish before, during, and after it, and that's, that's good growth. And he shows some contrition. But then, and here's where he, like from here on out, it's like, okay, well, he might do good things from time to time, but he's by no means a good man.

He has Sawyer tortured, right? Because Sawyer manipulates him, actually. And this is a really good scene and it's really good television, but he has soyer tortured after soyer is tortured hands of getting stabbed in the arm by a knife, accidentally but like that wound damn near kill soyer and so Jack wraps it and binds it and stuff like that but now you've got a wound on an island and shit's dirty right. So soyer needs meds. He needs, um, what do you call him? Antibiotics.

Antibiotics. Yeah. And and Jack has all the antibiotics. And he has all the antibiotics. And here's what he does with them. He threatens to withhold them from soyer as a way to do or soyer. The problem with that, in addition to, you know, you're manipulating somebody

through the threat of death, is that soyer wouldn't have needed those fucking meds if Jack hadn't sanctioned the torture in the first place. Yeah. So everything after that, everything after that is a deeply flawed man trying to do the right thing from time to time, but the fact that he chose, he actively chose, soberly chose that path.

He has been a villain ever since that moment. Okay. Yeah. So that's that's right. All right. From lost. So. Now. So.

Now, yeah, there's compelling. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you purchase a pretty bright line. Yeah. Yeah. Even even the man who did the torturing, Said, um, I think he actually is not a villain. Even though he did the torturing. Um, and, you do bad things, you're a bad person. He absolutely does all he can to make up for and show contrition for and show growth from.

Jack uses it as a tool. It's just not okay. I think the very last thing I want to do is actually, I'm not going to defend this guy. Um, I want to address Killmonger because a lot of people, um, think Killmonger is actually hero or that he was right. Okay. And he was not.

I think Killmonger from the Black Panther was a villain and he was portrayed as a villain, but he was a villain specifically because he manipulated things into repeating the colonial traumas that he was complaining about. And what I mean here is that he used Black liberation rhetoric is that he used black liberation rhetoric in order to get himself justification and legitimacy to gain power and then turn around and do exactly what he was accusing all the colonizers of doing and rightly accusing them of doing. Yeah. Then he went ahead and did it. He toppled the head of a state.

He took it over. He instilled his own sense of order. He got rid of the traditions once they had served their purpose to him. He then began to extract wealth from that place immediately and then started using that wealth as a means to attack other places. Everything that he did was to expand his reach. Everything that he did was British. Yeah. So he's not a villain because he hated Tachala. No, he's a villain because he co-opted the language

of liberation while continuing the tradition of the British. So he's a villain who stayed a villain, but a lot of people want to paint him as a hero because the stuff he said made sense. And it's like, yes, but he's using that as a sketch and he's using that as a veneer to stretch across the the the villainy that he's doing. Yeah, the language that he's using is righteous. The actions he's undertaking are exiled. Exactly.

Yes, they're repetition of the same sins. Yeah. And he killed a fuck ton of people to get to that point. Like he murdered his way into power. Yeah. So anyway, I think that's a good place to leave it actually. I think so. Curtain sweet and to the point. And yeah, it's a lot of heroes leave it actually. I think so. Curtain Sweet and to the point.

Yeah. It's a lot of heroes and villains. That is cool. Anything you want to reflect upon or glean from any of this? Well, just that we can do this. Part of this is a framing exercise. Yes. And I think it's, I think it would be worthwhile if

critics and people who talk about media would play this game a little more often. would lay this game a little more often. Because I think there is value in shifting the framing that you're using to look at a particular thing and replacing the gels that you're using for color in a scene. Yeah, yeah.

As as a different analogy for it in order to yeah, to see what what other things what what becomes highlighted and what and what disappears. You know, just because I think as a society, we are woefully unpracticed in doing number one, doing critical thinking. Like as a society, we don't do enough of it. But we take what we get fed and build our opinions and our outlooks on that. Number one, and number two, there is a level of empathy involved in the exercise. And in the end, you can wind up coming down on the side of, well, no, you know what, there's an argument there, but no still a bad guy. Or, well, you know, sometimes situations are complex, still a good guy, but exerting the effort to think about it and talk about it is exercise for parts of thinking that enable

us to be more empathetic. And I think we have a dearth of empathy in our discourse right now. I'm dearth is a shortage. I'm. Dirt is a shortage. A lack. Yes. Okay. I always confuse that one with the other word. I forget what the other word is. Yeah. But yeah. But yeah. We have. There is. Yeah. There is a lack of empathy in our discourse. Which is interesting because as we've discussed in another podcast fairly recently, but it hasn't dropped yet. But as we've discussed in another podcast, like it's interesting because people's sensibilities and the this bothers me aspect of their personalities kind of what's up front. Yeah. So you would think there would be more empathy since people are like putting that

up front. Yeah. And yet, but an awful lot of that is being done as a way of talking at other people rather than talking with other people. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like self declaring instead of very much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's shouting, don't step on my toes. Pretty much. Yeah. Which is, which is a valid thing to say. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm not trying to take away from that. Yeah. We spent plenty of time with people's toes getting stomped and nobody noticing. Yeah.

Yeah, we spent plenty of time with people's toes getting stomped and nobody noticing. Yeah. So, did I ever tell you the time when I was a freshman in high school, I went on a mission trip to Mexico? No. With any evangelical group? What? Yeah, okay. So, I didn't know that much Spanish yet.

And some of it that I knew I confused. So, Lo Santo means I am sorry. I feel for that, right? Yes. I had misheard how to apologize. So I stood on a kid's foot and I turned to him and I said, No, Sientes, which means you don't feel that. It was effectively not empathetic, but I was trying. No, see, I didn't. You know, I just, I love the construction of that. You didn't feel that. Right. It's just so that sounds like what that says like when an older sibling would say after they

whack somebody with a with a whiffle bat. You didn't feel. You didn't feel that. You didn't feel that. Right. It didn't happen. You're okay. You're okay. You're okay. You're okay. It's a little blood. You're okay. Yeah. Yeah. Walk it off. Walk it off. But yeah, you know, we lack empathy in our discourse. Yeah. Well, sometimes we lack it on accident. Yeah, well, it's great. But yeah, I think it's interesting that at a time where we need to, people very clearly need to declare, hey, don't step on my fucking toes, because somebody walked by before and said, you don't feel that. And I think that was having culturally in a way. You know, I mean, camera phones have made it so people actually have to at least agree that black people

are being brutalized by the police. Yeah. I mean, they'll still come up with all the mental gymnastics, all the visualizations. Yeah. But at least it's much harder than just saying, no, it's not. That's just over blown. Yeah. But yeah, it's interesting at the time where we need more empathy to, I don't know, have everybody wear masks? Yeah. We have vaccinated. We have people declaring their major of being really bothered by things, but nobody like taking that next step and being like, okay, there's people over here shouting about their toes. You should probably walk a little wider around. Maybe think about that.

Yeah. So. All right. Well, what's your reading? Let's see a renegade history of the United States by Ross Tegue. I'm remembering the name correctly. I think that's right. Yeah, that's my that's my book recommendation right now.

I like it. How about you? John Brown abolitionist, a man who killed slavery slavery sparked the Civil War and ceded civil rights by David S. Reynolds. Nice. It's got one of my favorite pictures of John Brown in it. It's called the insanity picture. It's him prior to having a beard.

You can keep in mind how long it took for the photo to take, et cetera, et cetera. Well, the flash could clearly like blown or something. And so they're like, he's kind of bulging his cheek out and squinting an eye. And that's the image that it captured. So it's the one that people often would use to show how unstable he was. When in fact, he wasn't unstable at all. It's just it's, you know, 1800s photography needs, needs a little bit deeper of an explanation. But it's also, it's just a really good book.

It's thick, but it's really good. So that's what I will recommend. All right. All right. Working people find you a social media wise? I can be found on social media as eHBlaylock on Twitter as Mr. underscore playlock on TikTok and we collectively can be found on Twitter as geek history time on the internet. We are findable if that's a word at www.geekhistorytime.com

That's a word at www.gighistorytime.com. And of course, you're listening to us. And like I say, every time I do this part of our broadcast, you have found us either on our website or on Stitcher or on the Apple Podcast app. Wherever you did, please subscribe, give us the five stars that you know we have earned. And where can you be found, sir? For this one, I'm just going to tell people if you get to this before December 2nd,

go to Luna's in Sacramento on December 2nd with $10 in a vaccination card. If you don't, if you get it after December 2nd, then go to Luna's on January 6th with a After December 2nd, then go to Luna's on January 6th with a vaccination card and $10. All right. That's where I'm going to send you for capital punishment. Sounds good. Me and my capital punishment crew, it's been going for six and a half years now and just spin in that wheel and sling in those puns. It is a fun, fun show, you owe it to yourself to go.

Very cool. Yeah. Well, for Geek history of time, I am evil Damian Harmony. And I'm evil Ed Blaleck. So until next time, keep rolling ones.