A Geek History of Time - Episode 20- Pinball and its Discontents (Part I)

Episode Date: July 16, 2019

Derek Lipkin joins us to share the history of Pinball, describing the evolution of the machines and simultaneously the legal challenges they faced in their early existence. Damian makes a Talking Heads reference introducing Derek, and Ed understand the reference!

This is Geek History and Time. I'm Ed Blaylock, a history teacher in Northern California on the Italian Workings and other business, and a father of 14-month-old son who I am training to become a master swordsman of the likes, which the world has never seen in the opportunity. And I've been a nerd since roughly the sixth grade when my father gave me a copy of Have Space Suit will travel by Robert Heinlein my first formal introduction to real science fiction. How about you?

I'm Damien Harmony. I have trouble speaking words in sequence, apparently, including the title of our show. I am a Latin teacher, formerly a history teacher at a local high school up here in Sacramento. I've been a geek most of my life. I am now transferring said geek them to my children. You see right there to your, let's see, that's my left, you're right. Those are scrolls that I whipped up for my daughter for our D&D game because she leveled up in the middle of a dungeon and I couldn't figure out

a better way to get her spells as a wizard. My son, on the other hand, is a sorcerer, so he had no problem getting new spells and oh my gosh, he loves a caston. Oh yeah, well, yeah, being a sorcerer is the way to do that. Yeah, nice and this is this is dog roll. You've actually written dog roll in iconic.

All right, nice. Yeah, well done sir. Thank you. Well done. Thank you. To my right to your left, we have a guest this week. What's your name, sir? My name is Derek Lipkin. I am a 32 year old attorney living in San Francisco, California with my beautiful wife. I know she'll be listening. That's why I said that. Yeah, I know.

What are you doing hanging in with a couple of guys like us? I mean, we're teachers. You're like an attorney. You're a real gentleman. I think it's because you woke up and you asked yourself, is this my beautiful house? Is this my beautiful wife? And then you came up here and you're like, this is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife. That is exactly what happened. Yeah. Well, just to give you the

Genesis, Damien and I did the tough mother together. And we, that was where we first met. I was there with my wife and we were having going through the event and Damien was there and he was lovely and we joined up with his crew. We went through all of the obstacles. He helped very significantly during the carrying and other human portion. Yes, well, you know, he has the shoulders. Yes, so that's a... Have got Will travel. Yeah, so... And actually, yeah, it's just by happenstance, they were stretching near us and asking and one of them asked a question

I was like, oh yeah, I've done this two or three times because I used to be fit And I was able to tell them oh the electricity is the just keep your head away from the wires You'll be fine and they stuck with us the whole time and we've been friends ever since very cool It's been quite great, but yeah, I might might geek them You know, it's funny. I don't maybe I don't know if you want to get into the semantics of geek versus neurodverses, whatever. Sure. I've always placed myself, you know, within that sort of world, mostly video games.

That's always been my entry point. I was a big, I'm okay. And to this day, very big sound like the hedgehog fan. All right. I'm a Zelda guy, but yeah, very good. Okay. And so, yeah, it's those games are both too. Thank you for me But yeah, so I that has definitely continued on very strongly very playing video games all the time

But then also other games which we may discuss in short amount of time I don't know if I should jump again on the on the subject matter. No, well, no, you have jump right into it You've brought this gorgeous book with you. Yes. You can just read, read the title. Yes. The title is the pinball compendium, 1982 to present by Michael Shalube. Okay. And it's a lovely Shalube family. Yes, it's Tony, his brother Tony has done quite well from himself. Yes, quite well known. his brother Tony has done quite well from so. Yes, quite well known. But yeah, it is a whole set of essays and remembrances of pinball machines from that era. And that is a gift that I receive because I am a pinhead.

It is. That's the name for it. It is. Okay. You know, it's funny, there's a lot of consternation as to what to call the players in the pinball. I'm sure pinball players would suffice from some But I like to put a little like I actually didn't don't just like the title of pinball wizard There's a lot of pinball players who are not very released with it. Okay. Well, so now now you've you've gotten Social social nerd

So that's that's of course tied to the who. Tommy, the rock opera and all that. What is it? I mean, is there a common kind of reason for people to have an antipathy for being called a pinball wizard? I think it stems from that being the one of the very few touches of pinball that people have. And so if you mention you play pinball and that is maybe the one contact that somebody else has, they're gonna bring it up and then you'll have to go. And you'll have to, for the first time,

and everybody thinks they're the first one to be that great. Exactly, so I think there's- So it's an annoying thing, one thing. Yes, and a fatigue. So you know as a kilter. Yes, you know everybody you know the remark almost inevitably gets made you know something about what have you got on underneath it and you know a big part of other than you know that's by the way that section I like your spence bragging about it's a big part. Yeah

Well, you know, but I guess I approve that by going off kilter But but everybody wants to make that joke yeah, everybody thinks they're the first one to make that joke Mm-hmm And so the amount of sense of humor that one has about that joke. Everybody thinks they're the first one to make that joke. And so the amount of sense of humor that one has about that joke starts out, depending on whatever your baseline level of good sportsmanship would be, and it rapidly plumbers. So I totally get that. I think, yeah, it's a very similar camp, similar experience. That's a very good idea. I never have these problems.

No, I never have these problems Call it after a root Thinking they get to use that word that's our word It's the weirdest thing really rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb Okay, here you go. Yeah, very big thing. Yeah, he doesn't care at all. Oh God damn it, two of you. That's so, just so you know what you've walked into. A few months ago, I stayed the night at their place. And while they are not early risers, I am.

And so I got out a little bit of paper and some tape because I rooted around a little bit and I found their spice rack and I renamed all their spices, the dumbest goddamn games. What my favorites was, I think there was some spice, sort of like a specialty blend, something mural, and so you taped over everything except for URL. Uh-huh. And you said like, it's funny. I think it says Eastern Russian Mountains, AKA URL.

Yeah. Oh my god. That was great. This is great. This is like, was that happy? Yes. The deaths were willing to sig too. Yes.

Yes. This one. But yeah, no. And then I ever see sphere And that and that also Damon was kind enough to invite me to be a guest on capital punishment Which I did two weeks ago to the day Had a lovely time competing and I held my own until yeah, and I went to an audience vote. Yeah Well, that's impressive

This one just regularly holds Everything Alright, well that's impressive. This one just regularly hones everything. Mm-hmm, it's just whole show. Most definitely. So you brought us a book. You brought this this beautiful book. About a certain amount. Completely honest. So pin heads is to purver your job.

You're to purver your job. Yes, purver your job. You identify as a pin head. Exactly. So yeah, no, and I always am sad that I can't remember his name, but the guy who was the Fox News guy, O'Reilly. He ruined that term for us. Oh, yes.

I'm reclaiming it. I'm reclaiming it. Okay, good. Good, you do that. But yeah, so just to tell you my history in pinball. So I actually, as a kid I always played, I was a frequent visitor to arcades. Okay. My favorite as a kid was always played. I was a frequent visitor to Arcades. My favorite as a kid was the

Jurassic Park machine because there was a dinosaur on the play field that would actually lean down and eat the ball if you put it right in front of him. Oh wow. Which I just thought was the greatest thing ever. And so that is pretty cool. And I really did not pay attention to anything that was happening in the game. All I was trying to do was make that I had to beat the ball. I just thought that was the greatest thing. So it was always around when I became an adult, it was always available in bars and whatnot, I would actually be, you know, maybe drop a dollar to play, but never with any any real cognizance of the gameplay, the rules or anything. When 2014 came around, I went to California Extreme, I don't know if you've ever been, it's

in Santa Clara. I've heard of it. Yeah, I have I have I have a College roommate. Okay. Who who he and an old friend to his that's like a pilgrimage they do every year. It is It's a fantastic event if you ever are interested and have the weekend to go visit. It is so much fun It's a three-day weekend of video games, pinball, other nerdery in general, a lot of artists who sell their wares there. And so I went, I had to heard about it for the first time back in 2014, and I decided to volunteer, so I get a free ticket. And so I volunteered, they put me

at the info desk, just helping direct attendees. I was sat with another volunteer, and he was a pinball player and just started chatting me up about why I was there and do I play pinball and then he started telling me about tournaments and leagues and all of this was a revelation to me because I hadn't given two thoughts to pinball since my dinosaur days and so it was really interesting and intriguing and I put myself on the waitlist for the San Francisco Pinball Department, which I'm wearing my San Francisco Pinball Department sweatshirt. And I'm now in my ninth season in the San Francisco Pinball Department

is great. I'm actually going to be one of the commissioners next year. So I've become very involved in the Pinball community. So a ninth season, but you started in 2014. Yes. So two seasons per year. Okay. So my first season was Spring 2015, starting in January 2015. From the first flip, I was hooked. It was just, it was like a light bulb went off and suddenly I found my community, my hobby, and it really has stuck. I mean, in a way, I've gone through, I'm sure as many people have, many different interests.

So in high school, I played a lot of poker. You know, there was an era, of course. I think you never know. That's one, see, I figured out as an adult that if I needed to spend that kind of money to get people to hang out with me, I needed to find different. That was like smart. That was like, experience with poker. You know what? I don't have the patience to count.

No, I just, you know, also, they're not watching everybody else play. Sure. And Rob, Smack left and right as an outside observer. Yeah. You know, have a beer or three. But the moment you try to put cards in front of me, I'm like, no, I need by money. Thank you. I have bills to pay. So, poker was never... Yes, yeah. But I think I went. So, before that, I'm trying to think of what else. I mean, I had various phases of, like, then there was like music production, I got really into

rap and really into beat making. So,. So I've had just these different things, which are still in my life to some degree. But Pimbal has seriously taken a place that, I think all of those maybe could have, if it was me right to place, right time, but they just never took this. So it's like you had your first pet, like where you didn't know you had that room in your heart.

Yeah. And suddenly it's there and you couldn't imagine your heart not having it. Yeah. And suddenly it's there and you couldn't imagine your heart not having it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's great. And so now there's, you know, it's quite a, it's a growing community nationwide and even worldwide.

Lots of pinball players. I think it's really in a renaissance. So now you're seeing it pop up again and a lot bars. And as bars become barcades, that is becoming a much more frequent site. It's a classic video games and Pimbal Machines. And really, also it's benefited from recent competition increase by two new companies entering the fray

to make Pimbal Machines a challenge, the main manufacturer to improve their progress. So I've got questions about that, that I want to circle back around to, why the Renaissance is happening now? And it's a Renaissance, which means it had risen before and I'd like to hear one now your book says 82 to present only please that you're going back before yes good because because I was I was 10 years old and I had a

kids in cyclopedia and it had the history of benches and it had Ivan the Terrible. Okay. And it had Mahooz, I think they're called Mahooz. Okay. Mahooz, the people who are paired with an elephant and they're the whole life of them. Turns out when you're five you're paired with them, so I had already passed my prime. Yeah, it was a bit. It was heartbreaking.

It was awful. I still to this day really wish I could have done that on some levels. I love my life, I love my home, I love my kids really wish I could have done that on some levels. Like I love my life. I love my home. I love my kids. But you could have had an elephant. I could have been with an elephant my whole life. Carrying heavy shit for people with a bigger friend. But and then another it was a two-pager was pinballs. So we're not pinballs. Pinball. And so I will have little bits from 10-year-old my me's memory that I'll be able to like ask you questions about, but I'm very curious as to

the history of pinball. Yeah, and most of everything I'm going to have to say is actually going to be filtered through my dad. Okay, okay. Because when he was in college, one of his, he blew, he can't even say anymore how much change he put in the pinball machine that was down the street. At the service station down the street from his fraternity house, that was essentially what he and his friends when did. Yes. Like when when they didn't have anything they had to study for or when they didn't want to study. Sure, sure. So yeah, but so where where do we begin? Okay, so I think I made myself a a little bit of a timeline that I think we'll take us through

the the major hits some of the more interesting little nuances as well. I think really the place to start is the 18th century and so we're going to go out. We're going to talk a little bit about the pre-Pinball days and sort of games that sort of paved the way for, I guess what you might loosely think of like as balls striking things. Okay.

And sort of made the way. And I think probably the one that is most directly linked, like without going too far back. Something that still feels pinball-ish is a French game called Baguettelle. And Baguettelle is, you may have seen these in your childhood, or maybe even since you have children, but there's a sort of little, there's sometimes

build this pinball. It's like a little field that has a bunch of pins sticking out in a plunger area where you shoot the ball up and it just cascades down. There's no flippers, there's no, you know, plain and thing. It's almost like Pachinko. Exactly. Yeah. So actually, Bagotel Haponise is the like sort of French, oh, they were there. There was this sort of at the same time Japan and France sort of developing these games of striking balls sending it into this area where it would cascade down.

And so yeah, so that was a, it became very popular early to mid 18th century. And so that's, and Japanese billiards, just really what sort of improved upon the baguette of France with including metal pins and with the metal plunger. So that's sort of the early days of where pinball kind of starts to say, of course nobody's talking pinball yet. I think baguettele or Japanese billiards is really the term. But probably the pivotal moment is 1871.

Now just real quick, baguettele, is it a vertical field or is it a flat field or is it a rate? It is inclined. Okay. So it's either completely vertical or yeah, on an inclined edge. Because you need a gravity to come back.

Exactly. Yeah. There's actually a great, if you ever get a chance to go to Alameda, you can go to the Pacific Pinball Museum, which is a museum dedicated, a living museum they like to call it, get dedicated to pinball. They have many sort of science projects that they have for usually children but anybody to learn. Sure. And it sort of shows you like the baguettelle, there's like a giant baguettelle you can play and actually move the parts around. It's like magnetic with these metal parts that you can rearrange in order to make the ball go in different places.

Yeah, so it's, yeah, so that really is sort of the spiritual grandfathers to pinball and so jumping ahead then, so we're 18th century going into the 19th century, we have our first sort of name that we can talk about and that is Montague Redgrave. Montague Redgrave. Oh, I love that. There's a good man. Montague Red Grave. Sounds like I can hear the accent already. Sounds like an antagonistic lover in a Jane Aeronaval. Yeah, I like that. Yes, yes.

Yes, he does like the... Sounds like the Eucharim. You can hear him. You can hear him saying something like, good day sir. I had to. Yeah. I hadn't gotten it out yet. So I was at like, that's the puns.

That's the time I was 20 weeks. Anytime I offer a pun, he either bids me a good day or he threatens a duel. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well that would be appropriate for the era. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, so British inventor Montague Redgrave, he is the one sort of credited with the spring plunger, which he patented

in the United States. He was in Cincinnati, Ohio at the time. And remember that. I do remember that. Yeah, I'm going to hear the story about how a guy named Montague Redgrave found up in Cincinnati. I like that, that's that's that's that's my guess would be train. Yes, immediately. We're speaking on that. Bloody pest. Yes, yes. I feel like you could probably make it, you know, if you go speaking on that stuff, bloody pestle. Yes. Yes. I feel like you could probably make it, you know, if you go through the Great Lakes somehow,

right? Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, my boat, Erichael, that's late enough, the Cannell Stone. What year was this? 1870. Wow, so post-civil war. Yeah. Okay, so I'm just contextualizing this now.

So post-civil war, carnivals are starting to spread. Pro-wrestling is hitting the rails as well. The Z-Con in the rail road is five years from being done. Five years away. So, rail travel and in that part of the country, rail travel was everywhere, saturated. The culture has shifted away from sectionalism. And yet, since now to go, Ohio is close enough

to the borders that you're gonna have, a lot of commerce going through there and a lot of immigrants going through there. Yeah. So, for a new labor. And there's a lot more factories cropping up. Well, yeah, throughout the whole period. Okay.

So, all right, so industrialized and a hub of interstate travel at that point. I think one of the main innovations being the coiled spring, so that made me think maybe like industrial, something where you could produce that. Probably. So he was in Cincinnati because Cincinnati was likely where he could get parts. Yeah, yeah, it's a good point. Yeah, or have access to them. And I'm wondering if Gun Man who character was big in that area too, because you've got

spring. Yeah, spring brings me a big deal. So and just the machining that would be involved to mass produce any kind of of any kind of manufacturer. Type riders are starting to get big. Baseball is very close to taking off. Yeah, because you have a Cincinnati Red stocking starting within a few years. Within, yeah.

So, okay. Yeah, so then that is really will bring us finally to the 20th century. So there's not much happening in the world of pinball or there might be things but not not to see. Basically spring plunge and then do you even have paddles or is it still plink going? Right. So it is still in the sort of bag of tail phase of just sending the ball up and allowing it to just care on wherever it is. Are you shooting? Are you shooting to move it and maneuver it? So that point? Probably not at this point yet because the boring fucking world I'm sorry. Just like hey look at it go. You want to see it go again? Yeah. I think I'm gonna go world. I'm sorry, just like, hey, I'm gonna go. Wanna see it go again?

Yeah, I think I'm gonna go left or right this time. Like, it just, like, I want to spend time in my backyard, looking at clouds, but also that sounds like a really dull pastime. And now, like, you know, if you're in a particularly meditative kind of mood, there could be a certain amount of value that could be taken out of that. But you got to go to a place to do this,

which means there's people around watching you do this. Watching you do it for entertainment. Like it's a spectator thing. Yeah, this guy always gets it going to the, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, he manages to make it land in the third box from the right like all the time. Oh, you do, you probably would get betting though. Yeah, well, so they're gambling.

Yes, there is a natural link that springs up between car machines and gambling, which we will talk about more as we move along. But really, yeah, pinball, you know, or at least this game, I think it still stays relatively small until you get into the 20th century, really into the 1930s. And that's where there is this explosion, right, pinball on the scene that really, finally it is kind of comes into the game it is. So at this point, pinball is still, or at least

this game is still tabletop. So it's basically like an additional box that you would on a table and then that would sort of play the game. If you had a drug store maybe you just have a table where you set a couple of these next to each other. It wasn't an independent sort of machine on its own. Not a free standard. Right. Right. So that's the 30s is where it starts to turn into what we know and love as pinball today. Now in the 30s is where it starts to turn into what we know and love as pinball today. Now in the 30s you've got, I mean, a shit ton less money for most people, but you do have people walking around with changing their pockets all the way up to that point. You also have people looking at those little view finders, like you put a diamond or a nickel

in and you get to see the dance of the seven nails and Nickelodeon. You get those viewfinders which were very much connected to vice. Yes. And so anything and the connection that I'm making here is essentially anything you put like a small bit of currency in that's a machine gets attracted to the vice world pretty quickly by the straight society type folks. Yeah, the perception. Yeah. Certainly, yeah.

It would lean that way. Yeah. And so this was, so nice 31 is when we finally get sort of the first real pinball machines on the scene. And so one is called Bingo. So again, going toward the sort of gambling element, this was a game where the ball would travel and would hit certain targets or fall in certain areas and then that would correspond to a bingo card up top. So and you would actually have the ability to sort of cash out. So if you got

five in a row within the game, there's actually a mechanism by which you could get credits and turn them in at the front and get money Okay, so it was it was almost a form of like roulette or Yeah, the slot machine. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I think that's there was this link. I mean especially and This sort of as we move through the 30s they become more of the fixture in taverns. And so yeah, I think this is the same place where you're finding slot machine and when I'm banded you're finding any other sort of these machines. And as alcohol is coming back, right? Yeah.

You know, America could use a good drink in 1933. And it knows. Yeah, so the, so the, so the 31 also had the first, or a game called Ballyhoo, which is based on apparently a very popular magazine at the time by the same name, but it is the, basically the initial game for what later became Bally Amusements, which is like the Titan in this whole industry.

Yes, yes, there's a great name. Because you know, logo on the back of just about, I mean, almost every pinball game. Yes. I can ever remember seeing. Oh, wow. You can actually still see it also. We have this, as I know, to talk about later,

but you still see in Las Vegas, the Valley name, because it's still used on gambling machines. So slot machines will still be made under the Valley brand. And also, I think Reno was actually the last time I remember seeing that logo. Yeah, yeah, okay. But yeah, so that's the start. The Raymond Maloney was the name of the person in charge of the Ballyhoo game. And so that was a mechanical pinball machine that had optional legs. So it could be a freestanding machine.

And this was really where mechanical pinball became a much more common sight around these places. And so the reason I'm saying mechanical is that previously the baguettell game, you're sending the ball and it's falling into maybe a certain hole or and that's it There's no other mechanism within the machine It's just what you see is what you get you're allowing gravity to take its course, right? So these and these are fantastic if you ever get a chance to go to the Pacific Pimomium You can see examples and they actually have something you can occasionally play they are

What you would call mechanical pin-mo machines, essentially games where you send the ball, and the way to the ball is sufficient to actually turn certain items when it rolls over them, and then that will then trigger other things in the game. So, for example, there's one that's a baseball one, which I thought was just the most, I wish I could have it, because it's just super fun. Send the ball around, and then the ball goes

into a sort of bag of tell and then it drops into a strike or a ball or an out or a single. And the game based on where the ball goes would turn certain gears and then log your progress in the baseball game. It was fascinating. And like, and just the fact that they could make that and even realize that that was possible, it was so cool.

And yeah, but that's the kind of mechanical game that starts to become a little bit more common. So you have other games where the ball would roll over like a puzzle piece, and the puzzle piece would turn over, and then your goal is trying to complete the puzzle. And so these are games where really the nudging becomes more involved. So you actually try to influence the direction

of the ball to make something happen in the game, now that it's sort of free standing and doing it something. Now, so you've got the mechanical aspects, do you have the paddles yet? No, still, still no paddles. So it's just, it's the Plinco version, but now you're trying to guide it and move it.

Yes. And do you have it where if you tilt it too far, it stops or is that not yet? So that is 1934. Okay. When the first tilt mechanism is installed. And now do you think this is because what I'm hearing here is that you essentially have a gambling device that involves some level of manipulation way more than you can have with a one-arm bandit way more than you can have with a roulette wheel Those are at cars. Yeah, those are absolutely chance. Yeah, those are absolutely chance This is I can impact the chance yes by by how I do it right so I can imagine people getting really angry and smashing these things I can imagine people getting really angry and smashing these things. Yeah.

But it still happens. I remember hearing that, I remember reading this that there would be games and if I'm jumping ahead, I apologize. No problem. No problem. That you would, if you couldn't get it, people would hit it underneath because they didn't want to get in trouble so they'd hit it underneath. And some manufacturers started putting nails

Really I think many ways A little green It's a good thing we laid off Back I actually think that the sort of, you'll see these sort of like, you know, they make it one way, people start using it in a certain way so then they respond to that. Right. And then the design changes. It's like an arms run. I was going to say, you're wanting to have like arrows. Oh, quilted doesn't work. Now we have to use plate, you know, and then guns.

Oh, quilted would have worked better. Yeah, jeez. So, I'll make sure to wear a silk shirt. But so what gets me about this is thinking about, the ball rolling over a mechanism and having an impact on the rest of the table, the workings of this must be incredibly intricate. I'm thinking of the push rods and the springs.

I mean, I can't even, I'm not enough of a mechanical engineer at heart to really be able to conceive of what that would look like. I just imagine it must be really complicated. Yeah, and I think it was on the level of watchmaking, just like the kindness of certain of the mechanisms and it's very small, like it's not a large device. Like it actually is pretty small. And so yeah, I think it was just very finely made, machine made. So for, and kind of part of what I'm getting at,

and I apologize for kind of stepping over there. But is in order for the pinball table, as we know it today, to become a thing, the rest of the tooling technology had to become advanced enough to get the precision mechanical parts necessary to build something that intricate on an industrial scale. Because you talk about watchmaking and for a very long time, generations that was all hand done. One piece at a time which was a pocket watch was a gentleman's instrument. Whereas this is popular entertainment for the masses, drop in a nickel and you're playing the game, you'd need to have this

produced on a certain kind of scale. So like do you know, do we have, do we have figures of like for these early games, how many units were they producing? So I know that as we get into like the late 30s, there was certain games that were very popular and they would put out like 50,000 like they're They're probably a certain you know very widely produced machines where their kits where you could you know It's essentially the the the top and the top of the table is like oh this is a puzzle This is a baseball. This is a this this is this but the bottom that the gears and such is like, oh, this is kit number one, two, three, or four. Oh, I don't know about it.

If they had that ability to sort of mix and match. Right. I wouldn't be surprised if they were able to make sort of an undercarriage. That was then you could just kind of re-skin. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Also, I was thinking, you know, to what you were talking about they did have adding machines and cash registers That it's true. You were already fairly complex machines. Yeah, I mean you you have IBM Really getting moving as far as its mechanical components in time for the Holocaust. So true

You know, you have like very complex machines Sorry, but it's the thirties like the darkest yeah, yeah No, yeah, I know but you know there's how many at the same time jokes We've made jokes in previous episodes about oh and here we are getting into the darkest you know chapters And the modern history in the middle of talking about this is what's happening at that And and also baseball. And also, you know, there's, you know, I'm just trying to think of what else is going on.

They're figuring out a way to make airplane engines such that they're not just big kites anymore, you know, where they figured out how to treat aluminum. They're creating the whole thing out. Well, by the 30s, as a sort of partial aviation nerd by Osmosis, by the 30s, you're seeing monobody construction and aircraft. The engine part had been figured out at least back before.

But yeah, what you are not seeing yet, aviation is, yeah. are not seeing yet the aviation. Because you did. Is, you know. He is insane. Yeah, that hurts. Sorry. What you don't see in aviation is like we're talking about mass production of these things. Right. Aviation engines, the aircraft companies actually resisted when World War II started the American aircraft manufacturing industry had to be forced by Congress

to standardize their tooling and work on mass production of aircraft engines, Allah Henry Ford because previously, Alison, the... The proprietary. Yeah, it was all proprietary. And Alison didn't want to talk to, Rolls Royce didn't want to talk to anybody else. Yeah.

And so that was a deal. But, okay, so yeah, so standardized parts. Yeah, you're right. And radio is coming in, yeah, and television signals are just now, like I'm just contextualizing what's happening as pinball, is a purely mechanical thing, and yet we have so much electrical

that's starting to get going. The very beginning, well, the very beginnings of this area are starting to be put into practice. Realistic production. Yeah, I mean, this is when the British really first started experimenting with radar, which wound up being their secret weapon in another eight years. I've got a fun story about that on some other part of it.

It's astounding to me that here we have a purely mechanical recreation device. At the same time, you said 31 was the first one it was made, right? Yes. 27 is when they figured out there wasn't ether in the air. Yes. Right? So, the floggeston was destroyed. Right.

You just said, like, holy cow. Like, talkies. Yeah. We're two years old earlier. Yeah. It's astounding to me. 31 women in Britain, all across, were able to vote finally.

Yeah. So there's a lot of change happening and this is a very mechanical, which... Analog, historically analog. Strikes, smacks to me of 18th century in so many ways. In a lot of ways, but I think... I'm sorry, 19th century, but yeah, but yeah,

but I'm gonna bet, and this is just a guess on my part, I'm gonna bet that electrification of all of this mechanical stuff happened very rapidly from here. Well, I was about to follow up with that to say, yeah, this era of the purely mechanical, was a fairly short one, given that we moved to 1935. Or actually, even before that, 1934 is when games started using electoral outlets to put into place certain

electro-mechanical portions of the game. And so EM is often what those are referred to as electro-mechanical games. That's like basically everything from this like mid mid 30s all the way through the 60s and into the 70s before computers are then put into the machine that's called a solid state because you didn't have any moving parts of determining like the scoring and all of those other functions of the game. So yeah so during that period of time the scoring was all analog click clicks. Yes. Yeah, so yeah You go to the museum you see all these games that have the score reels. Yeah, and so yeah, it's this is so really Yeah, only about two hundred or a kilometer of fun Yeah, you can that's actually the value of what you're nickel that you put into the game Yeah, you can that's actually the value of what you're nickel that you put into the game

But yeah, so as we're getting into the middle of the Thursdays We have electricity finally making it into the games We have the tilt mechanism that's a response to I think people being aggressive with how they're playing the games And then we have the what is that mechanism by the way? Is it just a mercury bubble and... Oh no, it's a console. I saw him a guy were up so... So on older games, and I'm sure that if somebody is a pinball expert, you know, it's exactly how it works.

I'm probably butchering a little bit. But they did have basically a small bowl that had a rod in the middle and a ball that would just sort of carrying around as the game move. And I think the basically the mechanism was if that if the force of the ball was ever too much, which it didn't need to be too much for the rod, but it was based on you know you moving the entire table. Sure. Then it would just you know trigger something that would I think release all

of the gears under. So that nothing would respond anymore, until the ball made it back to the trough, and then that would sort of reset everything underguards. Okay, cool. And of course, you just need to put a new coin in in order to reset it. And so, but on the punishment for cheating is you lose your money, you lose your money.

And so the modern pinball machines, and this is probably, once you get to, I don't think you have to go too far into like maybe the 40s Before the tilt bob Becomes the primary mechanism, and so that is basically what's used today even So that is a sort of like a pendulum has a kind of conical shape hangs on a piece of Metal and it hits sits within a metal ring.

And so every time you move the machine, that pendulum essentially touches the edge of the ring. If it touches the edge, it makes contact and the game sort of logs how many times it's touched. If you touch it a certain number of times, then the game knows just turn off. And that's when you get your tilt. And so, yeah, so that is certainly in modern pinball playing, that's figuring out the best way to move the machine with the tilt bob in order to avoid the dangers.

Or that's what they call them. You get a danger before it turns. It warns you, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I actually just, quick aside, I played an tournament this past weekend. I played an older game called Jet Spin. It was made by Gottlieb.

I think it's like 1962. Okay. Very fun game. I, these games are older. They tend to tilt very easily if you move it too much. I put a giant move, and it was kind of a frustration move, where I just moved it probably like four inches. You know, like hold it.

But apparently I did it perfectly and did not tell save the ball and play for like another 30 seconds, racking up the score. And everybody looked at me like, what how in the world did you just do that? Because you're a pinball. That's not a pinball. And it was funny then,

because immediately after a friend of mine was playing, he gave it not even half the move I did until it's immediately. And so I didn't move it perfectly. You got to know the dance. Yeah, Carbaw. Carbaw. It's all about Carbaw. It was really quite satisfying.

I can't believe it. So anyway, so as we're moving, we're getting the Tellt Magnusum. We got a Baffle Ball, which was 1935. That was a machine that they made 50,000. And so then Pinball finally makes its debut as a term for this game in 1936. So now we're at mid-30s, we're starting to get more interesting mechanisms within the machine. The first one being in 1937, the bumpers. So these are whenever the ball makes contact with this sort of circle. are whenever the ball makes contact with this sort of circle, it has a, it basically makes a complete circuit and a solenoid that is below will pull the ring down

and shoot the ball. So at this point you're still seeing games that are baguettell style but they're now integrating the bumper so you're pushing the machine, the ball is bumping from the electric pulse of the metal in there, and you're still kind of in this same paradigm. And then this is when, finally, I think, a lot of the jurisdictions start to take note of the link between this and gambling. And so, basically, 1939 is when the hammer comes down

in two very significant places, New York and Los Angeles. So that is where LaGuardia, New York, bands, pinball, Los Angeles, follow suit, bands, pinball. And the stated justification at the time was that it was robbing children of their nickels and dimes as they were, you know, trying to, you know, say someone in the children. Yeah, I want someone thinking the children. So this was 39, 39, two years after the Golden Gate Bridge, by the way. Yeah. And, and, okay,

so I'm trying to think, because our very first episode that was on the comics code authority. Oh yeah. And that was a decade and several years later. But I think this is probably where we're starting to see the very beginnings of the worry amongst adults about juvenile delinquency and our kids are all crazy wild animals. We don't know what to do with them. Very music man. Very. There it is.

You know, as a matter of fact, with a capital T and it runs with P and it stands for pinball. It would certainly, I think, work here. Wow, nice they've done. Well, you know, but you're right. It's a, yeah, you're less than a decade away from those hearings, those first hearings, and that's like college is making his bones in the 40s. Oh, I'm forget.

Profalver? Keyfaw. Keyfaw, keyfaw. Yeah. That's kind of a bitch. But yeah, okay. Yeah, that's sort of a bitch. But yeah, okay, so just that that Grimland. Yeah, yeah, so really that I think this starts this sort of cascade of bands that start going nationwide So there's you know every town

It's city is starting to really look at this and decide whether they want a band to game Entirely and actually, it usually is that history actually provides modern history in that almost every year at some point in the year. There is some very small hamlet in Ohio or, you know, often like West Virginia that apparently still has a pinball ban on the books and then they finally repeal it and it's like a local bar can totally have. It's like, if you look, there's like one every year really the past 10 years like there's always one city yeah it's like an old holdout so yeah so

that was a really you know the significant change I think for for the the game you know and amusement makers had to sort of respond and I think there were still pockets of places you know I'm sure like, you never really had a problem with it. But it definitely, I think they have a problem with any. Yeah, I think that's a defining characteristic. Yeah. Well, that is where the pinball hall of famous. So, oh, wow. I think there's, that's not a coincidence that the, yeah. And so, yeah, so that, that really, you know, changes the game a bit. And so, but this so that really changes the game a bit. And so, but this is where the move away from random and towards skill really starts to take shape

with the manufacturers. And so, at this point, you have Gottlieb, which is one of the big names in an old pinball, Williams is around, of course, yet Bali. And finally, in 1947, so almost 10 years later, we finally get the flipper. Wow. The paddles you mentioned earlier,

yeah, the first game is called Humpty Dumpty. And it is a game where there are flippers on the gate. And it's not in the, not the way you think about it as bottom. It says now at the bottom. Right, there's actually six flippers and they're all sort of distributed throughout the play field. And they all flip sort of simultaneously.

Oh wow. Yeah, so it's, but it is the first time that you can actually really impact the ball. The main field of really big way. You know, it's not just as it's careening down, you can actually send the ball back up. Now does that legitimize it in the eyes of the law? Well, not immediately.

So certainly it, I think it's the first step. Okay. And I think, and we will see the pivotal moment come about 30 years later. But in 30 years later, yeah. Holy shit. It really took that long. Until I was born.

Yeah. So you were like in high school, but. Fuck. Fuck. So I just want to back up for a second because I'm thinking about like fantasy league sports like draft kings and that kind of stuff. They're not sponsoring us. If they want to, we can talk. But I remember specifically like fantasy sports gambling. They started making the case that they were a game of skill, not a game of luck. And that's how they were able to get around certain gambling regulations.

Yeah, there are certain statues. And this apes that, or this is like the prototype. Yeah, it's the same, yeah, it's the same mechanism. I was just... Yeah, so 30... Jesus! I'm sorry, 30 years later, that's... Like, Jager Hoover's dead by that point. Yeah Well, yeah, true

I'm a man who's dead now, right? Technically, he's not dead now because he's a lich Trying to a future episode No, have you ever noticed that you know Jeff Sessions has never seen without that flag pin, I'm just saying that. It's a factory. It's a factory. I'm just saying, I believe it. That's my brother's crazy uncle.

Yeah. I'm sorry. You've made that joke before, but if he hears that, he's either going to laugh up brilliantly or show up at your door. Oh, no. Hopefully he's going gonna laugh up or seriously or show up at your door. Oh no, hopefully he's gonna do that anyway. But yeah, no, I mean with a shovel. I grew up in that from him. That's his show.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. Okay, so slippers. So yeah, so slippers. Slippers are introduced, that's adding to the game. Another big change, so even though there were certain electrical portions, I think lighting wasn't as serious in the earlier sort of electrical iterations of pinball. So in the 50s you start to see more sort of bright pinball machines.

Oh, okay. Installing a lot of lights and in particular, installing them on the back glass where so typically on the sort of the older machines you would have whatever the score was actually logged near the sort of where the flippers would be. So right by the player there wouldn't be and oftentimes there was no back glass the way you think of the back box on a pinball machine. That would actually not be there because there was no there was nothing to do. Nothing to do. Yeah, it was just the back of the target. So finally there's a back box which contains some of the electronics and it actually have a bunch of lights Which would be used to indicate score and so the what when you would start hitting the different targets and whatnot You would actually have those lights progressing so if you go to the museum you can see these games where yeah

It'll start out at zero you hit a thing and it goes to 10,000 You hit another one it goes to 20,000 and then once gets to 100, it actually stays at 100 and then the 10, 20, and starts to, and so you actually kind of have to do a little math to actually figure out what your score is. See it's education. Yeah, there you go. Something not only is a game of skill, it's educational. And so, yeah, and so, and then finally, when you get to, so that's the 50's you really start to see the inward

facing flippers start to become more common. And also, that's it at the bottom. That's it at the bottom. So basically, again, once the bottom gets to the bottom, you're having a chance to save it before it goes into the trough. And so just 21 was the first one that had inward facing flippers. Although that one, they were a pretty significant gap between them. So it was even though they were at the bottom and they kind of looked like the flippers we have. They were still a pretty wide area to lose your ball. When you

get to spot bowl, which is a got leave game, or actually I might have there on my P.O. Williams game, that was the first one where it was really the true sort of pinball you think about. So two flippers closer together at the bottom. Maybe a hands breath between them and that's about it. Right, right. So yeah, so that that takes the 50s going into the 60s and finally we get a couple more innovations that become you know standards for pinball even to today. And two in particular one is the drop target which is a mechanism where, I imagine you might recognize it if you saw it, but basically you hit a target, it will go down. So it's like, it's sort of a little tile

or a modern tile that goes down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So you hit it and then it pushes inward and falls down into the game. That's how it works. Yeah, yeah, and then when you go to a new ball, there's another solenoid coil that will activate

and then reset it by pushing it back up. And so it could kind of ratchet back into position. So that was an inventor by the name of Steve Cordek. And so he did two things, drop target. That was huge in 1962 and then 1963 he introduced multi-ball, which is a mainstay of pinball now. And usually the most valuable scoring mode in any pinball machine. So it's just increasing your eats. You're rolling with advantage.

Yeah, well certainly that, but also, yeah, and also that's usually the only time you can qualify a certain scoring, usually call the jackpot. And so the jackpot is usually the most valuable item you can collect while you're playing, and you can only collect it while you're in the multi-ball mode. So this really adds a whole new layer, I think, to the skill element of adding this sort

of new mode that you have to play with in it. You have to handle. So the year that this was is 63? Yes, 1962. Oh, so leaving aside the obvious stuff that was happening in 62 and 63. You said before that it was, you know, very electromechanical. Yeah, right? We're still not computerized yet, right? Correct. So how does electrical mechanical inform the mechanism

in some way that like I can see in a computer it's like you go into that mode. Okay, cool. How do you go into that mode. Okay cool. How do you go into that mode that activates the jackpot in an electro mechanical way? Well so I was sort of speaking more for those ones a little bit like what comes later. So yeah, I think in these ones you had these mechanisms where you would basically like a little saucer

somewhere in the game where you would be gonna sit the ball, the ball would sit there and then once you touched another target it would spit it back out. So then you'd have two balls going at the same time. And so, yeah, so in these ones, it actually was not as sophisticated rules of the scoring. So really, it was just rolling with advantage. Okay. So those were games where you had an advantage because you had more balls, but not necessarily the scoring. Yeah, that would come later. Okay. The advent of the solid state game where then you could sort of set a computer to tell this target to suddenly become more valuable than previous ones.

Okay. Yeah. To actually alter the scoring algorithm. Yeah. Yes. Yes. As utilizing. And when we get to solid state, I'm assuming is when we start seeing like projected LCD scoring,

and just electronic scoring. Exactly. The way that the scoring thing, it just, it reminds me, it recalls for me like different alarm clocks that I've seen in my life. Yeah. You know, like the flipper one. Okay, that was grandpa's.

Yeah. The red letter, or the red numbers, the whatever. Red, the red grandpa's. Yeah. The red letter or the red numbers, whatever. Red, the red sort of liquid crystal. It can be at A to it can be a seven or whatever. That's my mom's, you know, and then on and on. And now it's, you know, different displays. I was like, oh, okay, that's on my phone.

Yeah, so yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. So anyway, this is kind of going along. I think the, and the first one that does any digital scoring is 1966. So starting to move into that direction, I don't think it quite was as sophisticated as what you'd see later. By the way, at this point, transistors are a thing that exists,

but nobody knows how they work. Tony Stark uses them to plug his armor into the wall. Very good. Very good. Like the Fantastic Four has gone to the moon using them. The X-Men have used them to create cerebro. You've got all these comics. Because they are this magical micronization mechanism to engage in a little bit of stuff. But you can use the Stanley alliteration.

Yeah, but you can use the electrical wizardry of it. Like that's the thing, and it becomes the catch-all. And so it's... The Oregon as it were. Yeah. You're still sliding little cards, by the way, in Discerebro, to let you know which bad guy is coming. Yeah.

But it is also this electricity, and that's all the explanation you need. And so it's interesting to see that that's worked its way in the pinball. Yes, it should also be noted that at this point a lot of computers were still operating with vacuum tubes. Early generation computers were still vacuum tube. And the Soviets were still trying to figure out how to build computer electronics using something other than vacuum tubes because we later found out in the very early 80s that the electronics in their fighter jets were still in the early 80s in vacuum tubes. So the USSR transistors were, as a matter of fact, these magical devices that they hadn't yet figured out how to manufacture for themselves. So this was a really big,

I mean, on a certain level, the introduction to transistors was still a really big leap. Even though nowadays, we're multiple generations removed from it. We kind of look at you know a transistor radio sounds like you know this this is Queen Z-Rusty joke from you know long ago thank you TV tropes for you guys by the way but you know but but two folks in the 60s that was a quantum leap in terms of taking a device that had been the size of the table we're all sitting around and shrinking it to something smaller than the footprint of the book that we've got sitting on the table. It was a dramatic reduction. And so the did the level of sophistication in the games leap like at the same kind of rate? I think it took a little more time.

I think once digital scoring, that's 66. I don't think you really see maybe the full potential, probably until close to 10 years later, when games I think start to become, especially as you get into the 80s, is when games I think really become sophisticated with how they're handling balls and handling these undercarriage and there's subterranean portions of the game. Sorry, I'm sorry. We're both 12. Well, see, here's the deal.

I have an excuse. I actually teach 12 years. So I was handling my undercarriage. And in the 80s and when in the next episode, next week, because we're in the next episode, next week, because we're heading to an end here. Yeah, but in the next episode, in the 80s, pinball is competing with TV graphics. Yeah. So it's got to find a way to stay more than just a dust cover.

Yeah. So, okay, so it's 1966. Women have access to the pill. Yeah. They can get it anywhere. Yeah. They still need their husband's permission, but they still at least 15, 20 years out from getting their own credit cards, but pinball has digital score. Yes.

Thank God. Yeah. And then this actually might be the perfect way to end, although it is the exciting climax in the lost story, or I guess one of the day in mom. And so in 1974, we have our first overturning of a band. So California Supreme Court actually overturned the Los Angeles band, citing basically two lines of reasoning.

One being that if Pimal machines were truly a game of chance, then the law would be preempted by state law, which dealt with games of chance. So that was like the sort of legal basis. And if they weren't a game of chance, if it was a game of skill, then the ordinance was unconstitutional on its face as denial of equal protection under the laws. And so that was the first, I think, real, I mean, California now becoming a sanctuary for pinball became the sort of first of the domino effect that would follow later.

And it was 74. 74. 74. So what had pinball been doing in the meantime? So I think at this point, where? Yeah, so that's kind of what Iball been doing in the meantime? So I think at this point, where? Yeah, so it's kind of what I've been doing. Right, so I think at this point, there isn't necessarily always enforcement,

local ordinances that maybe band it, I think it was. And there's also, you'll see this sometimes on older machines, there were some places where it was permitted, but it was sort of limited in certain ways. And so there, and I forgot to mention, there's games that come out, one of the issues, and this is actually something that still happens with Pachinko in Japan, you sort of play, and if you collect more credits, you can cash them out and win money. This was a pinball thing. You could actually, if you got like 10 credits on the pinball machine

by playing well You could go up to the front and they'll pay you whatever 10 nickels if that was it Eventually there became this to get around bands that were worried about people doing this as a gambling thing They switched it to out of ball games So basically you would play the game and rather than getting a new credit You would just get an extra ball to continue playing for fun, Okay. Which is now kind of a staple feature if you get over a certain score you get next to. Exactly. And so the, and then also you start seeing the classic for amusement only being slapped on the front, which is actually still the case.

You buy a brand new pen moment, and it still says for amusement only right there on the apron. It's like buying stuff and it says not for resale. Basically, that's that. Not for any of the dual sale. I hadn't ever thought of that. Right, but it was so big deal. I was thinking, that's kind of begging the question.

Like, well, what the fuck else are you talking about? It's, oh, I have to use this for amusement. I was planning on using this as the basis of the thesis in political economy. I was thinking you'd use it to start this for amusement. I was planning on using this as the basis of the thesis in political economy. I was thinking you used to start a new religion. Well, you know, if you know how to do that, you have to be some kind of a wizard though. Right, and in California, there's plenty of ways

to start a new religion. Lord knows. And then the real big one, 1976. So, bicentennial, right here for America in many ways. Oh, sure. And the best way was that we have our Lord and Savior, Roger Sharp. So Roger Sharp was a noted pinball player at the time, and he was called to actually testify in front of the New York City Council.

Jesus, he counts. In a New York courtroom, he was brought forth by the amusement and music operators association to basically testify that pinball was a game of skill, not a game of chance, and thus, that the city council should over to the people. Oh, yeah, right. And so this was widely, and there's actually a great, if you ever want to watch it, drunk history,

this one is a great one. Yeah. But it's all about the sort of shot heard around the world where Roger Sharp in a very Bay-Brucy in way walked up to him on machine and said exactly I will put the ball in exactly this lane, this area of the game, on the plunge. And so he said that, everybody waited with baited breath, he plunged it, it went exactly where he said it was going to go baited breath, he plunged it, it went exactly where he said it was gonna go.

And almost instantaneously, the C-Counsel voted to repeal a ban. And it was in that, it was truly like a magical moment in pinball history. So they set up a pinball game in the hearing. Yes. And he said it's a game of skill and they said, prove it basically. And he said it's a game of skill and they said, prove it basically. And he said, okay. And literally on the plunge, which I'm sorry, I've, I've plunged. Right. And it goes where it goes. And I get ready with the flippers. Yeah. And he on the plunge was like, oh yeah, I'm going to put enough English on it that it's going to go right here. Yes. You don't have as many

levels in wizard. Yeah. Apparently not. And he is like, I don't think anybody does. I'm just gonna say, I legitimately think he was a telekinetic. I don't know how the hell I might could do that. Or was he tilting? No, no, it was not a matter of him pushing the machine at all. He just literally pulled it back. He knew the sound of that,

the brain, he knew the distance he had to pull it. It was all by that time. It was memory. It was. Yeah, so that, and that, when New York finally overturned the ban, I think that was the turning point, where finally a lot of other municipalities would follow suit to say, okay,

this really is a game of skill. And then you see, of course, then we'll talk in the next episode about the 80s, but it does bring on this sort of new era, because this is almost the exact same time that the solid state comes through. And it's 75 with a game called Spirit of 76, very appropriate.

So anyway, I'll save it all for the next one. Cool, very cool. So now this is the part of the episode where we talk about what our takeaway is at this point. So I'm going to throw the question out. Sure. Damien, what is your, what's the biggest thing that's gonna stick with you or what's your take away from it?

To be honest, just the amount of things that are happening at the same time is pinball is developing. Like how it's... It's growing up as the same time. Yeah, and in so many odd ways that like don't mirror it at all. It's just a separate thing, but it's also a thing that's in the background of every picture, you know. And the other thing though was it just shocked me that there was a hearing about pinball and I'm

thinking about how ridiculous I thought it was that George H.W. Bush went and I'm dating the podcast. But how- You're dating us. Yeah, that too. The podcast. But how George H.W. Bush went after steroids and baseball and how there were hearings where we called baseball players to come and talk about whether or not they were juicing. I remember thinking, this is the silliest shit I've ever heard.

I'm wrong apparently 30 years earlier We had hearings and grant it was in New York City But so is municipal it's it wasn't over like is boxing causing brain damage to the welfare of the United States that I would get It was it isn't our wrestlers committing fraud right with which they're selling to the public. Which, okay, cool, there's money being exchanged, but this was, does the box with the ball and the flippers mean that you use skill or that you use luck?

And we're going to have legislators clear their calendar for that day to determine that crucial question. How do I get that job? Like, like, what do I do to get that kind of a cynicure? Right. Because a holy crap. I would love to like, I mean, basically, like, our podcast topics, yeah, in hearings. That's it. Yeah, so that's my take away. Well in this case literally. Yeah But but that's my take away is how how I was wrong about how goddamn ridiculous things have been Well, I think I think what like the scale is incredibly big. Well, yeah Well, I think over the course of the time we've been doing this podcast

I think we both should have learned that everything has been a lot more ridiculous than we thought That's true. What's your takeaway? I just find it remarkable that there has been this whole, I don't want to say subculture, but this whole industry and this whole gaming culture that has been so ubiquitous, but always in the background. Yeah. And, and, you know, like you talked about,

it's in the background of every picture. You know, there's so many movies where somebody walks past, it's a prop. Yeah. There are a pinball machine in the bar, pinball machine, in, you know, where they walk past past an arcade full of pinball machines. Right. You know, and...

Oh my god, yeah, American graffiti. Yeah, and... Or the crow. Yeah, as another good example. But the, just the extent to which this has been, this background issue in our culture forever. It's always been there. It's like suddenly realizing what the pattern is

on the wallpaper in the room you're sitting in. You've been sitting in the hours. It's like noticing that the snowsberries are actually. Our actual snowsberries. Yeah, you know, like, oh, well, those are dick. Yeah. Oh, wow.

That's a revelation. And the forum use meant only. Yeah. That one is going to bake my noodle for a while. Because you know, it's there. It's always there. And again, like I said before, it's like it kind of begs the question.

Like, what the fuck else? Why are you using this thing? It's a box with ball bearings and a plunger and a lot of spray. Like, I can't use this for a tool. This is like, I can't use this to diagnose what's wrong with my car. Or there's a guy that like tries to sue the deli.

And he's like, I tried to cut meat on this thing and the guy's like, I'm sorry, it said for a reason. But only. You're dying, pal, I'm sorry. You know, right away in case thrown out. You owe him, you owe him court fees, you know. So I think, you know, there's just so much of it that's just so obvious that you don't see.

And of course it has a history. Yeah, like because everything does. And that's the other lesson that we're gradually teaching each other with this podcast. No, no, no, seriously, everything has a history. So thank you for this. Yeah, awesome. Thank you for having me. Look forward to learning more about it in the next episode. Yeah. So

Yeah, that's that's the takeaway and I've forgotten the rest of the format. I think and so this is Ed Laylock. I'm Damien Harmony. So you can catch us on Twitter. That's for hate. At Geek History, at Geek History Time. Wow, I'm having a stroke in front of us. That's what's happening.

Okay, so I need you to hold lift both hands up. Get your sides, my nose. All right. Okay, so you can catch us on Twitter at at Geek History. You can find me, Damien Harmony, at at Geek History. You can find me Damien Harmony at at duh Harmony. Do you age Harmony? Yeah. And you can find me at at EH Blalock on Twitter. I can't think of what my other social media accounts are right now to share. So I'm having the same stroke you are to slightly lesser degree. But for now, this is Ed Blaylock.

I'm Damien Harmony. And on behalf of a geek history of time, keep getting those multi-balls.