A Geek History of Time - Episode 203 - Successful Movies that Aged Poorly

Episode Date: March 18, 2023

So thank you all for coming to Cocktalk. He has trouble counting change, which is what the hands think. Wait, wait, stop. Yes, but I don't think that Dana Carvey's movie, um, coming out at that same time, was really that big a problem for our country. I still don't know why you're making such a big deal about September 11th, 2001. Fucking hate you. Well, you know, they don need to be anathema, but they are definitely on different ends of the spectrum.

Oh boy, how do you say that? See, I have a genetic predisposition against redheads, so. Because? Yeah, because you are one, yeah, combustion, yeah, we've heard it before. Yeah. The only time I change a setting is when I take the hair trimmer down to the nether reaches, like that's the only time. Other than that, it's all just a two

I'm joking I use feet after the four gospels what's the next book of the Bible? okay and after that it's Romans. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, and if you look at the 15th chapter of Romans, okay, you will find that it actually mentions the ability to arm yourself. That's why it's AR-15. Thank you. Checkmate anything. And anytime there's action in the ring, Scott Hall is taking off the bumps because Kevin Nash kind of sucks his work. That's as worth it. This is a geek history of time. Where we connect an artery to the real world.

My name is Ed Layla, I mean, World History and English teacher here in Northern California. And this morning, as I was getting out of the shower, as usually happens, our cat, one of our two cats, climbed into the shower right behind me. Because for whatever reason, despite the fact that they have a perfectly clean filtered water bowl, like a water fountain, that is entirely their own. There is there is some reason that they crave the experience of licking the water up off the floor of the shower. And it does I don't I don't get it. It makes no sense, but whatever. And my son was very, very forcefully trying to school the cat and get the cat out of the shower.

And I don't remember what was made of my wife. We said, dude, what's what's the problem? He says, I don't like them getting Kitty DNA in the shower. For those who might need to remind her, my son is five. And we had it back and forth about this and come to find out he he he learned about DNA on a on a show on his iPad. Finding stuff out. And we had to explain to him that everything is made out of DNA and you know everything living anyway has DNA and If he doesn't like cat DNA, we're going to have to get rid of the kitties because there's no getting around that and You know come to find out. It's no he doesn't he doesn't like having their hair on them in the shower

Which okay, I can understand that but you know, having my son make a bold claim about, you know, I don't like there being cat DNA in the shower was a bit, we were a bit taken aback. So, yeah, that's what we have going on. How about you? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I am a Latin and US history teacher at the high school level up here in Northern California. And I've got a small two for you.

Number one, a new role playing game entered the chat today at home. Oh, yeah, one that I had ordered a while back and gotten like many refunds because the price had come down, I guess. Okay. Showed up and my daughter immediately be lying to it. It's Avatar, the last airbender. Oh, okay. The role playing system. It was a Kickstarter thing that I'd missed. So now I'm buying the retail copy, which is a bummer because the dice on the

Kickstarter one were amazing. But that not was standing. My daughter, I just, I put my kids down before we start recording. Yeah. And she took the book with her to bed, which is not uncommon. And instead of us playing D&D tomorrow, she's going to run an Avatar game for us. So she has spent the entire afternoon reading the Avatar book. And, you know, she came to me just before bed and she's like, hey, I need these,

like she gave me a requisition form of like, I need these character sheets to be downloaded by, and I'm thinking by the time we play. And I was like, all right, I'll do it again. All right. But yeah, that's, that's, it's wild, it's cool. We had actually come up with our own Avatar world and and whatnot in five E

Okay, but this is better because it's You know, yeah, yeah, it's a tailor-made system to match that universe. So yeah, that okay So I look forward to seeing how the mechanic works. All right Um, I know nothing. So I'm letting her teach me the whole thing tomorrow. All right. The other thing is I found something that I did not think would ever exist and I did not think would ever happen,

ultimately. That is I found an action figure of my favorite superhero of all time. I am now the proud owner of a Speed Ball action figure. Really? Uh-huh. So, uh, I sent that to a friend of the show, Dr. Gabriel Cruz, who had been on the episode where I, episodes where I talked about speedball and what happened to.

And, you know, nobody likes speedball the way that I and maybe my brother like speedball. And, and maybe a former student of mine named LeBron, uh, like speedball. I think mostly because I liked him and he's like, he liked, he liked that I liked it and, okay, all the wisdom. Yeah. And so I texted, uh, Dr. Cruz and I was like, I can't believe it's there and he's, yeah, I can't believe it either.

Yeah. Yeah. Damn it. But also he's having for me. So yeah, well, yeah, that's good. That's good. But yeah. So.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, that that mask of yours just be like, yeah, I know. Yeah. I don't get it either, but happy for you. But yeah, yeah. So yeah. But it was cool.

It's cool. Yeah. They don't have a good enough for me. Nova's character. Yeah. Yeah. Um, there's, there's the retro ones. They have a Nova and Firestar retro. Yeah. Uh, I missed the boat on night thrasher. Uh, it would have cost me $20. How'd I pick it up

at the bookstore? Uh, and then it disappeared. And now they're like 80 bucks. Oh, yeah. So that's the way that goes. Yeah. But uh, but yeah, so there you go. Oh, my right. I too. I'm happy for you. Yeah. So I wonder if Speedball is a character that ultimately aged well. I think so because he's essentially a sillier zany version, a less competent version of Spider-Man. And that seems to do well. Yeah. Yeah. and that seems to do well. Yeah, yeah. All right. But speaking of based on that interpretation,

that makes sense. Yeah, speaking of aging well. Yeah, what about Paul Rudd? I mean, how the hell? Right. Packed with the devil if anybody ever made one. Well, no, I think what it is is he is secretly related to Dick Clark.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. They have an ancestor in common. Apparently, they are the ancestors. They are. Yeah. I've never seen either of them together. Yeah. I've never seen them in the same place at the same time. Yeah. And now that Dick Clark is gone, theoretically, Paul Rudd's star is rising rising as far as we know. Yeah, right. Okay. So that's what I think. Okay. But anyway, you actually had something someplace you were going with that. Well, yeah, I just I mentioned Avatar last airbender, but that reminded me of the movie Avatar. And I also was talking about things aging well or not. And the first to me that we've never done an episode where we talk about movies that were phenomenal and whether or not they've aged well. Okay. And that's, you know, the kind of change over time thing that I like.

Yeah. I tend to leave comedies and action films out of that because I genuinely think that the ones that age well out of those are the exception and not the rule because both genres are really so reliant on contemporaneous sensibilities that they usually aren't going to age well. They're not supposed to age well. So usually they'll get a pass from me, but at the same time maybe don't show them to your kids and expect them to hit the same way as they did when you were a kid. Yeah, but do you have any, any movies that come to mind that are, that are like that? Well, you know, you say movies that were, that were amazing when they opened and, and have not,

have not stood the test of time well. And of course, the very first one that comes to my mind is a comedy. But a couple of others do occur to me. And actually And of course, the very first one that comes to my mind is a comedy. But a couple of others do occur to me. And actually, I'm gonna start with one that is not the first one that came to mind. Okay. And it's actually kind of a two-for. Well, real quick, let's give the audience five seconds

to silently bet on which one is a comedy that didn't age well, that you think Ed is going to tell us about. And... Okay, now that you've written it down and put it in your friend's pocket, when he says it, pull it out of the pocket, and then you'll win the door prize. So there you go. All right, so let me one that did not age well. So to start with not the comedy, we'll put a pin in that and hold on to that for a while So you know keep that pocket buttoned. Yeah, I'm gonna start with as I said a tofer because They're they're closely enough related to almost be the same movie

And it's holiday in and white Christmas. Oh, okay Bing Crosby nothing with him age as well. Yeah, um, sadly, his kids didn't age well with him. So no, no, no, no, indeed. Um, and so the thing is, of course, white Christmas is, is a sentimental classic for millions and millions of people. Oh, yeah, quite so. And so for a certain subset of the population, maybe not very many listeners of our show, but for a certain subset of the population,

the idea that white Christmas didn't age well is tantamount to heresy. Because look at what it's all about. It's gathering, gathering everybody together for the holidays and the whole plot line is based around them trying to do something to help out. Their beloved commander from the war who's fallen on hard times.

I mean, there are some wonderful heartwarming great things about this movie. But there's one sequence that kind of shoots it in the foot in terms of aging well, and that is the minstrel show sequence. Now in white Christmas, Now in white Christmas, they don't actually do anything in blackface. Right. But they do harken back nostalgic to how wonderful the minstrel show used to be. Mm-hmm. And no, Bing.

Bing. I love you. I really like, I really do. I am, I am a huge Bing Crosby fan. And no, man, that, that, why? Do you got to do that? Now, the thing is, here's the deal.

It's a culture, man. I tell you. Yeah, ruining art. Ruining, yeah, Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, okay. And it, it's interestingly, bring that up. Uh-huh. Here's so sensitive. Yeah, but yeah, well, okay. And it's interestingly bring that up. Here's the deal, because white Christmas was made in 52.

I didn't actually look at the date up, but it was essentially during, if I remember correctly, it was during the Korean War. Yes it was. Um, white Christmas, not white holiday in was made in the 40s. And holiday in involves a full blown blackface sequence. There is a musical number in which Bing Crosby himself corked up leads the cast. Just real quick, corked up does not mean he stuck a cork up his ass. It means that he burnt a cork,

and that was what they used to use burnt cork to smear around their faces. By that time, there was actual makeup, but the idea was it was like boot black, or it was burnt cork. And yeah, okay, carry on. So he and Fred Astaire, oh boy. And well, no, I don't think Fred Astaire was one of the performers in the sequence.

Oh, because Fred Astaire was the other was the third leg of the of the romantic triangle. But the female lead and like all of the members of the backup band were wearing blackface in a in a number about Abraham Abraham Lincoln. Oh, because the conceit of the movie was that Ben Krasbi had tried to leave behind showbiz, but he couldn't quite get performing out of his blood. So he's running and in Vermont, which uses all the same sets as white Christmas. Was David Bowie come by and they also do some blackface? Oh, no, that was way later.

It was way later. Although, although it wouldn't be surprised if parts of that set were also taken from me. I was wondering. I'm wondering. For this like, dude, but the conceit is that he runs this in in Vermont, but he only has it open for holidays, for holiday, essentially holiday weekends. And, and they do a themed show. Based on whatever the weekend was and for whatever reason,

one of the holidays in the film is Lincoln's birthday. Okay. Yeah, that's an opportunity to. Alongside Valentine's Day Easter Christmas. Like Valentine's Day Easter and Christmas, you're not going to have a need for blackface. Like Valentine's Day, Easter and Christmas, you're not going to have a need for blackface. Lincoln's birthday. You have an excuse to have everybody. And what is disgusting to have to say, but a true thing was it was considered its own genre of art. And in fact, it was its own genre of art. They're very specific things.

There's usually an interlocutor who's, you know, basically translating the mutually incomprehensible dialects of each of the people. So we can all take the piss out of that. And there's all kinds of like conventions and tropes, stock characters. Yeah. It's specific stock names.

It's a paper racist. Oh yeah. It is its own genre. So I could understand them wanting to wedge in that genre in the same way that you're like, okay, we did a jazz number, we did a ballroom number, and now we need a Waltz number. Like, yeah, I could just see them thinking through that being like, yeah, how long has this been? We've done blackface. Oh, yeah. How long? Yeah. We got to do a menstrual Z number. Yeah. Right. You know, and as you're talking about the the characteristics of menstrual Z as a genre, what strikes me is

it is a very much very much American and very much the dark side of the American psyche and very much the dark side of the American psyche response to comedian Del Arte. Oh, tell me there are there. Well, uh, comedian Del Arte is one of the one of the the Italian. Right. Yeah, uh, obviously. And, um,

comedian Del Arte was was a genre of performance, uh, that was very, uh, improvisational. Mm hmm. And relied very very heavily on stock characters. There would be a young woman and a young man who were in love. There would be the elderly father of the young girl who would get in the way. There would be the full character. The stock character.

Yeah. There would be all these various kind of stock characters. And the, the humor would oftentimes veer into the crude because this was a, this was a popular form of art rather than an upper class form of art. Right. But everything, you know, if, if you understood the conventions of the genre, you could start the way that a group of players were doing a scene and you'd pretty much be able to figure out how it was going to end. But the fun was in which bits they were going to throw in and leave out and how that was all going to work.

Exactly. And so in a way, this is American, comedia, del art, this is this is American, comedia, del art, and that says some very bad things about our collective, dominant culture, psyche. So yeah. So that was 1950 something, 52 you said. So holiday in was in the 40s. Oh, okay, okay. White Christmas was white Christmas was, I want to say 51 or 52. Okay. And the thing is, in the intervening less than a decade, it had already become, well, okay, look,

we're not gonna do blackface because this is just not done anymore. We're not, you know, that's not cool. We can't do that anymore, That's dig class A. Right. So when you, when you make your joke about, oh, yeah, canceled culture, can't do anything like that's not a new thing. And it's not actually canceled culture. It's us as a society going,

you know what, maybe let's be less shitty. Yeah. You know, maybe just a little, can we try? So, so the thing is, it's a good thing my wife doesn't listen to this podcast because she is one of those. Fair enough, yeah, well, and I knew that was coming and yes, in fairness, because white Christmas is a staple in our house every Christmas season. And she absolutely loves the film.

And she it's a it's a it's a film that she will put on in the background. And there are there are a number of the numbers in it that she will very clearly be paying very close attention to. And then there's other stuff that's just kind of background noise while she's decorating the house or whatever. And I have tried to have the conversation with her about, you know, I missed the menstrual shows. And it has not yet been worth the has not yet been worth the conflict for, you know, to have that. I just, I leave the room when that scene comes on. And the rest of the movie, I love the rest of the movie with my whole part. But like, at that moment, you're like, can I get you something to drink? Let me make a complicated drink. Yeah, tell me, I'm going to go, I'm going to go in the other room and find some laundry

to fold for six minutes because yeah. So yeah, and holiday, I've basically told her, I'm, you're not, no, we're not watching holiday in in this house because that's, no, I can't. Right. Right. You know, I can't even write, you know, I know the the the wonderfully bubbly comedic bits between Crosby and a stare are great. Mm-hmm, but they're not worth that. So just know. So because I taught blackface, as a subject, not as a genre, because I taught about Jim Crow.

I taught the kids the origin of Jim Crow. We discussed blackface in my class, not too long ago. I've done some deep diving into blackface as a genre. And I kind of want to get an episode on here about blackface, but I would rather have an expert do the work because I'm sure there's a lot that I'm missing. I'm not a theater person, I'm not a drama turd. Neither am I a history of drama expert, neither am I black. And I think we need to have two of those three things to discuss it on here. So I'm going to start trying to hunt that down. But do you know the most recent

Blackface performance in mainstream media? Oh, there was an episode of Mad Men, where one of the partners in the ad company got up in front of a bunch of people and it was supposed to be in like 1960, five, six, six, yeah, yeah. He said he got up to a talking home, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, and everybody, everybody was kind of politely kind of golf clapping because he was, he was the owner, you know, one of the owners of the firm, but it was very clear. Everybody was appalled and his much younger fiance. If I remember you in the plot line right, just like fucking walked out.

Sure. So I want to say that was it. I wish. Oh, shit, really? Wish. Billy Crystal did it as recently as 2012 for the Oscars. What? Yep.

2012? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. And there were a bunch of, a bunch of Jimmy Fallon and Jimmy Kimmel stuff that went through about 2005,

where they would do things impersonating various people. Fred Armason, and Metated Barack Obama, and he donned blackface. And it wasn't, okay, so there's, the problem is that it's similar to the word to the phrase sexual assault. Sexual assault can mean anything from pinching someone's bottom to holding them down and forcibly raping them.

Yeah. And plenty of things on both sides and in between that, right? Yeah. Blackface used to be that specific genre with the chicken George character and the Jim Crow character and things like that and the very very dark black like the color of our microphones black shiny with the lip stron on and stuff like that cartoonish it also has come to encompass and I think rightly so it has come to encompass white actors or non black actors because this is also a thing in the Latina community during certain parades. But non-black actors using coloration to make themselves look black also counts as blackface. Now, I would say that there is one that is far worse, but I'm speaking as a white dude,

and so I'm parsing things out. But I would say that doing the stereotypical dissent and the other is different than donning bronzer to make yourself look like a man who's of mixed heritage. That being said, higher black actor. Like, there's no reason to do bronzer. Fred Armason has plenty of other good shit he can do. And yes, his voice work is phenomenal, but it's okay to hire another black actor too. Yeah. So just kind of

like what God was the name Keenan the guy in the end wins. No, no, no, um, Keegan Michael key. No, no, that's Keegan Michael key. He can come. Is Keenan the guy from SNL, the one who he was in good burger. Okay, he stopped, he said, I'm going to stop doing a drag because they would always have him in drag. Yeah. Um, he and Thompson, I think thank you Thompson. Yeah. Um, he said I'm going to stop doing that. He said that like five or six years ago. He's like, start if you want more black female characters, higher black female comics. And like he straight up put his foot down. Yeah. But yes, the most recent was Billy Crystal in 2012. Actually, there was an episode of Orange is the new black, where a character, uh, black faced as a Halloween costume. Um, no, no, no, I'm sorry.

Um, it wasn't an episode. It was a singer, Julian Huff, um, Huff, Hugh H.O. UGH, Huff, Huff. Huff, Huff. Um, she, uh, she dressed up as the character crazy eyes from Oranges in the New Black. I think I remember hearing about that and only could think was really.

Yeah, and that was right around the time that there was a lot of us play about Mishon of white character white people who really liked the character Mishon and they're like, I just really liked the character and it was like, stop it. Yeah, sorry, bummer, you know? Yeah, it's just, it. Yeah, sorry bummer, you know, yeah, it's just and and rightly so quite honestly given given what what the other gradations have done.

But yeah, the last one on purpose performance on major media was Billy Crystal in 2012 that I was able to find. So yeah, Jesus. Yeah. Okay. So good times. Good. Yeah. So yeah, I could see why that didn't age well. Yeah. So a friend of mine who is a comedian who we still haven't gotten on here about his book. He's a little jensen. He has a joke about like, oh, this cancel culture is ruining. People are too sensitive as he takes the cold cream to his face to rip off the black face for the very last time in the 1960s. He might need to update that since Billy Crystal did it.

And Billy Crystal had a history of doing that, by the way. Like, yeah, yeah, no, on a number of occasions. Yeah, to the point where I actually grew up thinking that he was black. I thought he was just extremely light skinned. Okay. Um, and, you know, I saw him in cool running. So that might have been my first exposure to him. Okay. All right. Yeah. Oh, God. Uh, guy who's a really good really good dancer. It'll come to me. Yeah.

But yeah, I saw him in cool runnings. And I was like, I, again, I thought Billy Kirstal was black for the longest time. I was disabused of that notion. Yeah. Yeah. So fun stuff. No, it wasn't running. It wasn't cool running. I'm sorry. It was running scared. That's what it was. Yeah. Yeah. It was great behinds and running scared. Yeah. That's because I was like cool running. It's John Candy, but he's also not black. Yeah. But yeah, no, running scared running scared. And I thought that both characters were black. Just one was lighter skin than the other.

Okay. He was wrong. So yeah anyway Cool, well, I've got one that is actually kind of a two-fer as well. Oh, yeah phenomenal movies All three of these phenomenal was like like capture the imagination the production value was amazing And we're all basically the same film Um, and that film is white meat white people make the best indigenous people Um Well, you might know it as dances of wolves or last samurai or avatar

Okay, yeah I was like I You gave, you gave the plot line. Yeah. And I was like, oh, dances with wolves. And then, oh, yeah. And last samurai. And, and yeah. And let's just make the indigenous people giant and blue and have a tower of James. Yeah. Which I'd talk, I'd call dances with thunderstormfs when I had seen it. Yeah. All right, so let's look at dances with wolves first. It was a game changer as far as Westerns go. Yeah. As as our colleague that I've already mentioned, colleague, our friend of the show, Gabriel Cruz has said history is a series of problematic steps forward.

This absolutely is that in 1985 only 87 actors of indigenous heritage were in the Screen Actors Guild total. In 1993, the number was 436. All right. This movie is very much a part of why that happened. West Stude, the Cherokee actor who's been in over 100 films, he played one of the Pawnee in the film. Yeah.

Okay. He said that dances with wolves broke things open in a lot of ways. And according to him, quote, it's set as new standard, it's set as standard, followed by many films afterward that dared to look into what made Indians tick. No more wooden Indians. And I think that's pretty accurate. I mean, you had internal lives. You had people that were not just a cardboard cut out menace, the zombies in the background to kind of think a third of the movie actually was spoken in Lakota with subtitles. And the subtitles were yellow, which I really appreciated because yellow subtitles are

easy to read regardless of the scenery. So they're going through the snow. Shots yellow. It doesn't matter. Whereas if you have white subtitles, it's hard to understand and read. You go across a computer console and the subtitles are white and you miss what some of the words are. Like, this is one of those things like we did it once, prove that it could be done and then decided never to do it again.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, there are some problems with the Lakota spoken, but still the movie had a significant portion of screen time with just indigenous people talking to indigenous people and not about the white people. Yeah. And the answers with wolves absolutely approached doing a better job of centering indigenous peoples in a western, which is something that until that point had not really been done. And they did it in the most responsible way that they knew how, so problematic steps forward, they hired cultural consultants and they made a genuine effort at understanding La Cotta culture. Now, this doesn't mean that it didn't piss people off. For instance, people of the

Comanche tribe were bothered by this because it was originally a story about Comanche. were bothered by this because it was originally a story about Comanche. Um, but the, and the Pawnee were pissed off about this because they're like, Hey, we weren't the oppressors. The Sue fucked with us. Um, yeah, can we, can we, maybe, maybe analyze which side we're picking in this particular, yeah, people fight like what? But the reason for the shift actually from Comanche to Locota was essentially geographic. New Mexico didn't have enough buffalo to film the herds, whereas and they couldn't find that many people to teach them Comanche language.

Locota was a lot easier to find. And since North Dakota has, or South Dakota has a shit ton of buffalo, most in the world. Lakota language teachers were easier to find. And since they're both groups that made extensive use of horses, it was an easy thing to port the story over. Okay, it's now about them instead. Okay. So if I was going to do an immigrant story, for instance, about a Catholic group and I didn't, I didn't have enough sunscreen.

Then instead of it being about the Irish, you can have it be about the Italians. The Portuguese. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, um, but, but speaking as, as a, as a white bread, Catholic, who is not a member of either one of those two groups, but Rubbs Elbows with them in the pew. They're similarly actually to porting from Comanche to Lakota to Sue. There's, yes, the overarching scrim can remain the same, but there's a lot

of shit you're going to have like, obviously, yeah, yeah, like, yeah. Yeah. So, and speaking of the language, uh, woman name is, woman named Doris leader charge was assisted by Albert White Hat. And she taught the actors how to speak the lines in Lakota. However, this also is not without some funny controversy at 12. It turns out, according to Russell Means, Lakota activist, that there's gender dialects in Lakota, and all the men spoke with a woman's dialect. And so he got a kick out of this. It would be the equivalent to speaking, like being a really strong warrior speaking with a very effeminate list. Yeah, and it's interesting that that brings up to me

something that was actually a plot point in Shogun, which is another example of white people making the best non-white people. Sure. I don't think it was nearly as much effort was made to be as respectful of Japanese culture as dances of the world's made. But it's actually a plot line in the novel and in the mini series that John Blackthorn

starts his education in Japanese being taught by a woman and similarly, there is a dialectical difference. And the samurai warlords he's dealing with are intensely put off at first. Yeah, until it gets fixed. Somebody says, all right, look, you know until until it gets fixed But it says all right look now you need to say it this way right you know, yeah So the reason for this was That the men's dialect was actually harder to teach the actors. So they just left out those gendered lessons Anyway, all of this is garnished to the biggest issue Despite these steps forward, remember Westerns usually had the indigenous people as your generalized background

menace to the white folks or comical inserts in a John Wayne movie like Chief Iron Shirt, or maybe they were filling in the magic Negro trope for the main character, right? There's definitely centered them in a white actor's stories. But at the end of the day, the story does still center on Kevin Costner and Mary McDonnell, both of whom are white folks who turn native because it's a better way of life. And while this could be seen as complementary to indigenous peoples, it still ends up being a fetishization of

them. And at the end of it all, it pushes the narrative that white people do, indeed, make the best indigenous people. It also still sets the tone with having our first exposure to indigenous people as being brutal and then vanishing. As we, the first that we see of the Pawnee is a memory that Mary McDonald's character has when she was a child. And the Pawnee attack her her family. And then you have Dunbar, Costner's character, say that he'd like to see the frontier before it disappears. Apparently Kevin Costner's character is kind of a proto-Fredric Jackson Turner.

Additionally, so there's this idea that they're disappearing, right? And there's this idea that their savages and that they're disappearing. So either way, it's still, you know, like very much the white lens. And additionally, the Lakota are depicted as being unable to defend themselves from white settlement. And they're only able to save themselves from extinction because of Don Barr's help. And at the end of it all, he sacrifices himself in their name so that the Lakota can survive. So

when I say white savior stuff, I mean complete with the whole martyr complex. So that's that's that version of the movie. The next version of the movie happens in Japan. It roughly the same time interestingly. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's 10 years later in terms of filming, but it's roughly the same time. 12 years later, Tom Cruise plays a drunkard out of Hope Army officer who ends up living with a community of people foreign to him in their own place and becomes one of the best of them that ever lived. And interestingly, you had West Studi talking about, you know, this movie that I've been a part of has really kicked open some doors and has done some good stuff.

Ken Wata-Tabi said basically the same thing. He stated, quote, I just thought we had the opportunity to depict Japan in a way that we were never able to before. So we thought we were making something special. Mm-hmm. I just want to cut in, It's Ken Watanabe. Sorry, Watanabe. That's literally a spelling error on my part. Oh, okay. All right.

Just because I'm a huge fan. Yeah, I'm a huge, huge, huge fan. And I like to get people's names right. Yeah. And again, it's a very similar vibe. They're depicting a much more historically accurate society. That said, they get plenty of it wrong. The movie highlights all the samurai who resisted and ultimately died in the attempt

to have an actual battle that did take place. Ignoring broadly that the samurai mostly did adapt to an urban lifestyle, and as a class they became very important in the modernizing Meiji era. And there was actually a French soldier who aided in this fight, but not like this. By the time of the Set Summa rebellion, he was long gone. His name was Jules Brunei. And he helped to separate this rebellion in Hokkaido, which ended in time for him to go back home and fight in the Franco-Prussian war in 1870. Anyway, back to the movie. The American soldier who knows how to use a saber from a horse and a gun is there to instruct the government on how to fight the modern way.

Cool. That's actually somewhat historically accurate. The Meiji era opened up Japan and got experts from all over the world to help figure shit out. Yes, modernized Japan. But then he gets captured in a battle by the noble Japanese samurai clan who take him back to their home because one of them had a vision about him. He dries out from being a huge drunkard and he spends a long time being borish and shitty amongst their polite tidy community. Eventually, he learns their language.

He falls in love with the woman whose husband he killed in combat. And he learns the ways of the samurai. And after like six months of training, he's able to best the swordsmanship trainer and three moves. Okay. I really do make the best indigenous people. Oh, okay. So yeah, a couple of things.

First, just because it was bugging me, the Suma Rebellion specifically took place in 1877. And dances with wolves is roughly contemporaneous, 1863, 64. As far as we can figure out, Nancy's with wolves, he, and these wounded in the war, in the civil war, and then years will last. And then you're gonna be sent west. Well, okay, I don't know how many years.

Okay, so, not well, I will give you that. Yeah, it is, but it is still roughly contemporaneous. The American civil War in both cases plays an interesting, framing function. Yeah, burns out both guys. Yeah, it wounds them both deeply. Yeah, wounds them both. And spiritually, right. And what we have involved is a fetishization of non-white culture as a spiritual thing. Yes. So the role of magical non-white person in both of these films gets played by an entire civilization.

Right. And the other thing, just as a sword nerd. It's offensive. Like it's part of the reason I have never actually been able to watch the movie. Even though there's so many things like my huge Ken Watanabe fan. Yeah, and there's so many things in that movie, they're awesome. And it's about the summa rebellion and like for all those stories. For all those stories. Yeah.

Yeah. Rising up against the show again and, you know, squirting juice in the eyes and the posing. Exactly. Soldiers. Really just rinding it in there. Yeah. Oh, it's really just grinding it in there. Yeah. It's got appeal. It really does. Oh, my love. It stems from the top. Yeah. Nice. I am amazed you don't spend more time navel gazing about it.

It's, you know what, they featured it in a few pulp novels. Okay good good. But there's so many things in that movie that like most of my friends look at when I say yeah I've never watched it. Most of my friends look at me you you samurai movie. It's a samurai how the how the hell and I'm like no no no I I found out before I even tried to sit down to watch the film, I found out that no, no, Tom Cruise goes and learns, you know, how to handle a samurai sword in six months, well enough to defeat somebody who's been doing it all literally all their life. Who's been teaching the clan? Yeah, who's, yeah, who is the master swordsman of his household? Yeah.

No, sorry. Um, can't do it. Like, there are a great many things I am willing to suspend disbelief on. Yeah. No, sorry. Um, can't do like there are a great many things I am willing to suspend disbelief on. Sure. That simply is not one of them. Oh, every martial artist I knew was like, what the fuck? I will say this. I, and I said this at the time, at least he has a history of martial capabilities with a blade. Yes. So you could... It's stretched. It's... What? It's thinly stretched.

But it's a one-handed blade. I agree. I agree. Like, there's so many different things. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The... Like, military sab saber style fighting in the 1800s was an entirely different beast.

Really? Then, then ritualized, ritualized combat in order. Okay. Well, okay. Hold on. You're saying those are different well number hold on I'm there a couple of things you've said there are themselves orientalist assumptions Okay, that showed up that showed up in the film okay bullshit, okay?

The the view that we have in the west of Samaritan combat being ritualized uh-huh is fetishization based on the fact that in the literature, in the sagas that the Japanese, that the warrior class wrote about themselves, it always was ritualized. But then you think of, think of Lachanson, D'Roland, think of the jousting stories or the fighting stories out of the legends of King Arthur. Those are pretty those have the same things happening in a fairly ritualized order too. Sure. This is the way this yeah, and this is the way that warriors fetishize themselves.

This is the way they talk about combat, you know, and so European Western historians and anthropologists and people studying these things looked at that literature uncritically and came to the conclusion that no, no, every time Samurai went into battle, there was always this announcement of who they always announced who they were. They always approached one another and they always started with announcement of who they always announced who they were. They always approached one another and they always started with the spear and they always moved from the spear to the long sword. They always moved from the long sword to be the short sword and then to wrestling with the dagger at which point one of them won. And the thing is in the heat of battle, no, that's that no, that was the ideal they strove for.

Like that was that was how they wanted to do it. And in a feudal society, you are going to announce yourself because you want your lead's lord to see what you're doing. So you can get properly rewarded later. But but it wasn't it wasn't like they had, you know, tyco drummers on the side of the battlefield going, you know, boom, boom, boom, and then stopping at the dramatic moment when they too swing like it's not using words like ritualized. Again, is leads to fetishization. Like it, it, you have to be very careful when you talk about that.

And, and then the idea that they were, you know, standing still facing each other and doing these things, I mean, literally standing still. I meant riding by on horses. Okay, all right, on foot, rather. Yeah, okay. All right, but you're right, you got me on the... So anyway, absolutely.

Yeah, so, well anyway, after defeating... It's a button for me. After defeating the master, in three moves after six months of training, he then goes on, and the whole time he's been talking to Ken Watanabe's character. And Tom Cruise advises the heck out of him and instructs Watanabe's son in how to do dope shit and be a better samurai, which is weird that this outsider who just learned it is going to teach the warlords son.

And then he joins them in battle. And they're so close, and there's a lot more to the plot too, but ultimately they're so close to winning in the battle of Setzuma according to this movie, but for the fact that Imperial reinforcements show up and damn the luck, right, with all their guns. In fact, he's the one who ends up helping Watanabe's character commit

Sepaku at the end of the battle that he helped some fight in. And Tom Cruise's character understood their culture so well and was so honored that he got to do this for him. Once again, it definitely put a lot of Japanese actors on the radar, right? Watanabe was nominated for an Academy Award in making him the fourth person of Japanese heritage to be honored in that way. Um, but also the lesson of loyalty, courage, resilience of both Tom Cruise and Ken Watanabe so humbled the Meiji Emperor that he ends up rejecting the tentacles of American arms manufacture If it weren't for crews in Watanabe's

Man crush on each other things would have been less secure for Japan That's the movie Yeah, yeah, yeah, which it is kind of funny that like The movie is highlighting like Yeah, the then military industrial complex bad idea, you know, even back then Which brings me to avatar dances with thunder smurs Also known as Fern Gully with heavy ordinance I also know this Fern Gully with heavy organ. Can you feel it, pain?

Without tone-loathe. Yeah. But with Michelle Rodriguez dying in it. So like, yeah. Actually, I don't know if she dies in it, but it's funny. It's, it's, this movie is such an interesting movie because it set the record for box office until I want to say endgame came out of Andrew's endgame. Yeah, I think it might have been or it might have been the last Jedi.

One of the two or the Force Awakens rather. I think it was end game. Yeah, it's set the record until end game specifically stayed in the theaters long enough to to outstrip it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it is a thoroughly and it's a gorgeous movie. I mean, it's visually stunning.

Oh! It's set a new standard special effects wise. And it is also a thoroughly forgettable movie that has left zero fucking mark other than the receipt on most people's minds. Yeah, it's weird. So Sam Worthington plays a paraplegic soldier. So now that's three soldiers who are in significant ways handicapped. Dunbar had almost lost his leg.

Allgren was suffering from night tears and PTSD and medicating that with alcohol. And Sully is parapoligic. Anyway, when his brother dies, the other two also suffered tremendous personal loss as well through their military brotherhood. Sully is the Jake Sully is the only one with the genetic code similar enough to become a Navi avatar. The Navi are the indigenous people who are like nine feet tall or taller. He comes out to a frontier world where the indigenous people are living in total harmony with nature, but where earth corporations are mining for something called unobtainium

and the need to move these indigenous peoples off their land is very much a front and center issue. And of course, the military is just there to help. Yeah, I love the fact. I absolutely love the fact that they actually just went ahead and called it unobtainium. Oh, is that a Greek word or something? No, it's a trope. Oh, they need the trope after it then, didn't they? It's the name of a trope. No, the trope has to be named after this, right? No.

No? No. Then that's two, because I watched all of the GI Joe cartoons, all of them. Yeah. All of them. And in one episode, they have something that they're hunting called the McGuffin device. See, like, yellow, lazy. Well, that's one.

One of the two. I think it's both. I genuinely think. I'm an opinion. Yeah. So, well, so the military is there to help the corporation, which is just really disturbing. Well, you know, they're there because it's a death world. I mean, ostensibly, it's a death world.

Yeah, I mean, humans can breathe the air there. They have to have canisters attach them and masks on and stuff. What's interesting also is that Scott, not Scott, Stephen Lang, the guy who played Ike Clanton actually, Stephen Lang is in it. He is kind of the guy in charge of the military there, and he is deeply scarred physically, like all the people who do bad shit are physically scarred. So, yeah, also that trope. So at first, Sully doesn't really endear himself very well to the native peoples But he does have that fighting spirit and eventually the daughter of the chief pairs with him and then he learns the way of the Navi

While trying to balance that with his duties to the military and Eventually the two come two two goals come to the impossible loggerhead and he chooses sides and wouldn't you know it He's there to help the Navi and without his sides and wouldn't you know it. He's there to help the Navi and without his help the Navi would have been slaughtered and he also ends up writing the biggest toruc there ever is that only five prior Navi have tamed and he's only been a Navi for like eight weeks and then he teaches them how to slowly resist the army. Yeah, eventually. Yeah, go ahead. The recurring theme of white boy getting pulled into or assimilating into a non-white culture or assimilating into a non-white culture by way of sexual contact with a member of that group.

Yes. Is there's a really, you know, it's, again, it's like the pattern on the wallpaper. I hadn't realized that that was, that's part of the trope. Yep. I'm like, really? Here's another trope for you. That's pretty gross. trope. Yep. I'm like, really? Here's another trope for you.

That's pretty gross. Zoe Saldania. Yeah. Apparently, in order to be in a movie, that is the earth shattering record breaker has to be painted a different color. Like, it wasn't Star Trek that broke any records. Yeah doesn't she was her normal skin color for that. But she blew in this one and she was green as Gamora in endgame.

Yeah. So which is a real interesting. I don't I don't I don't I don't like sharing that like that's oh hey. Well, especially when we just talked about black face, right? So now you're taking a black person and you have to make her a different color. Here's a weird thing that happens there. Wow.

Yes, if you look at the rest of the Guardians of the Galaxy, by the way, Groot is Vin Diesel, also black. And Drax is Dave Batista. He's still Filipino. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Mantis is, I forget her name, but she is also Asian. Yeah. I also forget the actress who plays Nebula, but she is Hispanic. I also forget the actress who plays Nebula, but she is Hispanic. The actress, am I forgetting who Nebula is the cyborg, right? Yeah, blue cyborg now. Yeah, she's, she's Scottish.

Really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, she was on her, she, she, she got her start, start. She got, she got noticed. I thought she was of Hispanic work. She got her start start. She got she got noticed. I thought she was a Hispanic word. I could be wrong. I know. Okay. Karen Brielyn Cooper does does what's her name? Karen Gillan. Oh, that's right. That's right. Okay. Yeah. Amy pond on Dr. Who. Okay. So I'm off. I'm on there. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So

but anyway. Yeah. No, otherwise spot on. Yes. Eventually, the Navi win thanks to Jake Sully's help. They chase off the military. Now, I'm okay with him teaching them like resistance technique because again, it makes some sense to have someone from the prior culture saying, this is how my culture is going to think. Here's how you can sidestep it. Yeah, I'm going with that. But all their success is because they turned to him for help. And of course, you had the angry young man who was like, that's not going to happen. And who eventually is like, okay, I am wind in his hair.

We are friends. You know, it's that. Yeah, yeah, I am wind in his hair. We are friends. You know, it's that. Yeah, yeah. That fucking thing. Yeah. So they then begin to heal their society after they chase off the military and the corporation and everybody else.

Yeah. And Jake Sully is accepted as a fairly highly honored member of the group. Yeah. And without him, the Navi would have been made to move off their land. But since they won, he chooses to be forever him the Navi would have been made to move off their land, but since they won he chooses to be forever with the Navi Again, I mean again given the options it makes perfect sense good writing on their part to take us there, but it is trope as fuck

Oh, yeah, all three of these movies share a tremendously similar story The white soldier makes the best native of the culture that he's now inserted into and every time he reminds them of what must be done I'm sorry not what must be done, but what it means to be who they are In a way it kind of galvanizes their ability to survive and resist the onslaught of military might So if the white guy hadn't joined them and reminded them by embodying the crystallized version, the, what the Romans would have called the Aquila, you know, of their culture. Um, if he hadn't been the Aquila fair or them, they would have been wiped out by them, by the, by the, uh, military.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But what is a, I don't know what it it is But each one of these movies also has an incredibly rich visual epic in its approach Each one of them is just incredible And all three of these movies are gorgeous movies Mm-hmm Which is really interesting to tie that to that to white people make the best natives.

Yeah. And there's a couple of things that occur to me as you're talking about that. The first one is there is this tendency within sci-fi fandom, within a subset of sci-fi fandoms, specifically. Anytime there is a female character who is really good at a lot of shit, like, you know, she shows up and she is, you know, an incredibly talented astronaut navigator and a tactician. And you know, she knows enough about, you know, starfleet weapon systems to be able to come up with, you know, fancy tricks on the fly. Or, you know, she shows up and she picks up a lightsaber and she's a natural with a lightsaber

and she has this immense connection with the force in instantaneously. The first one was Ensign Roe, right? Yeah. Okay, good. And, you know, or she shows up and picks up a lightsaber and has this, you know, natural talent for it, you know. Ben, right. Well, yeah, him too.

But yeah, yeah. Right. Anytime it's a female character who shows up and is the hero, there's this accusation of, oh, it's such a Mary Sue, which when I get around to talking about fanfic, I look forward to that. That's where that comes from. And it was actually originally an accusation made by a female writers of Fanfic at one another. But that's a, that has been latched onto by, you know,

and asshole misogynists. Yeah. You know, but then, you know, oh, hey, we have, you know, union, union cavalry soldier in two cases, who shows up and is a better native than the natives are wherever they are. And then we have, you know, injured marine, who does the exact same thing on an alien planet. It's like, oh, yeah, bad ass man. Mm-hmm.

Like, no, no, they're all Marty stews. They're the biggest fucking Marty stews you can imagine. But there's no, there's no backlash when it's a dude. So baked into this hideous fucking trope is that as well. Yeah, and all three of the women teach these white men how to be better indigenous people. If it is not for their administrations, then these white men how to be better indigenous people. Yeah, if it is not for their

administrations Then these white men would have a much Would have a much harder road to it would take them probably a full year instead of six months instead of six months Yeah, they've taken at least double the time. Yeah, yeah, but like literally it's and it's their their romantic relationship That is the bridge for that too. So you're absolutely right. Good to call and miss that. Yeah, and also mentioning the romantic relationship being a thing, this was not my other thought originally,

but that twig or something. During the European, well, Western imperialist domination of China, when China had been broken up into influences zones. It was a common thing. Certainly, most European circles, less so with Americans because of our period in heritage. But when men from Europe went to China, they would learn one of the ways that they would learn Chinese was by taking a mistress and they referred to them as their pillow dictionaries. So there's a real world shittiness tied to. There is fictional shittiness. Oh, All right.

Invented life. So yes. Yeah. Oh, well, that's uncomfortable. Yeah. Kind of. Kind of the movies don't age well. Yeah.

Um, but then the other thing about going. Yeah. But the other thing about these three movies. Yes, that I find interesting is in all three cases. The guy who ends up being a better native than the natives is a soldier. Yes, a broken soldier. A broken, necessarily a broken soldier. Yeah, necessarily a broken soldier. So yeah, and I'm calm about native. You have to be a substandard white. Yeah, you have to be an emotional or a physical cripple or both. Yeah. Wow.

That's shit. Super fucked up. But I find it interesting that it's soldiers. Yes. Like it's, it's not, you know, booksellers not booksellers or... Booksellers or, you know, aimless upper class, upper class, twit of the year. You know, it's not anything specifically soldiers. And I wonder if that's because the writers are trying to find somebody that we will immediately

find, we will immediately think that there are admirable character traits. I think also though, you have, it's an easy right because give me another profession besides teaching that so cripples somebody emotionally or physically. So that's easy to explain their injury to give me another profession besides teaching where you also have the shittiest people in the world right next door to him on the same regimental line. So you can have like this. All of that. Yeah. Yeah. There is a also there's a fronteurism to all of this and who shows up in the frontiers? Oh yeah. Like

yeah, you got missionaries, you got merchants and you got military. Yeah, so yeah, I see it I see it what you got Well, I'm not I'm not gonna go to the comedy yet. Oh, okay. I'm not gonna be the comedy yet I'm going to go check your pocket real check check the note you put down I'm gonna go to a classic I I'm going to go to a classic, I want to say 50s, I didn't actually look the movie up very much before, jotting it down in my notes. Either 50s or early 60s romance and an absolute classic that has been referenced any number of times, notably in a pop song

that I'm a particular fan of. And the film is Breakfast at Tiffany's. Oh, I was gonna say something like it hot. No. Okay. Number one, that's a comedy. Good point. Number two, that's earlier.

There's been more time for that one to go. Okay, yeah. No Breakfast at Tiffany's. Oh man, what about it? that's earlier, there's been more time for the end to go to go wrong. No breakfast at Tiffany's. Oh, man, what about it? Well, it is. Did you see what I did there? I said, what about breakfast at Tiffany's? Breakfast at Tiffany's.

She said, I think I remember the film. Anyway, I thought it was, I remembered the bill because the next thing is I recall, I thought it was I remembered the bill because the next is I recall I I paid And we both kind of liked oh wow Okay, I got a so look at the bills kind of yeah, we both sort of liked it. I said well that's anyway. Yeah So really sad song when you're newly divorced by the way because you start sobbing in the car, you know you're newly divorced, by the way, because you start sobbing in the car, you know? Oh, I'm also sad, what about it?

Oh, he's in a hang. All right, so, breakfast, Tiffany. That's what she got, though, been a little bit. I don't think I was newly divorced, but anyway. Audrey Hepburn, right? Yeah, Audrey Hepburn, in her like defining iconic yes, big role. And number one, the plot line is about the sensitive writer boy who's the jiggle who winds

up rescuing the girl he's in love with from being a sugar baby. Sure. Sure. Sure. So, you know, there is, there's kind of this, this, this, you know, he, he saves himself by saving her, but there's not a whole lot of, like, it's not like he really needed to be saved based on the way the film, like, the film doesn't really emphasize him You know he he He does have a moment of you know turning around his you know sugar mama and sand you know You know what I don't I don't need you. I can be right around my own right, you know, and then he goes and he goes to you know rescue Audrey Hepburn by the way romantic lead played by a

Very young uh, Audrey Hepburn, by the way, romantic lead played by a very young, no, no, the male romantic lead. Oh, uh, played by a very young, the guy who played, um, Don Nott's. I can't even be mad. No, George Paparge. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Wow. Oh that's right cuz she teaches him how to make a Spanish custard and he's just like I love it when a Flan comes together. Yeah. Thank you. No, it's because he's so pretty. So there's those two older women and he said I love it when the grants come together. Oh, okay. So, so there's anywhere, there's the, there's the innate, you know, of its time, sexism. Oh, yeah. Involved in, in, in the romantic plot line. Mm-hmm.

But the, but the really, the really egregious part, the part that's just like literally the part that you're talking about is this where the guy is like, come on, I took you to dinner. Don't I get to come inside now? Like they have no conversation. Oh, no, that's there. That's there. Oh, right.

But that's not, that's not, no, no, no. Yeah. Literally the first time I watched this movie, that's not the terrible part. Yeah. It's really something. Yeah, no, no, the first time I saw this movie, was with my first wife, who was just like, no, no, you gotta see this, you gotta see this.

This is a classic, oh my God, I can't believe you. I've seen this, all right, okay, fine. And kept on from Mickey Roni to show up. Yes. Where is he?'t seen this. All right, okay, fine. And kept on making Roni to show up. Where is he? Where is he? Yeah, and then- Has he gotten this? Yeah, and then Mickey Rudy shows up and holy shit.

He's in yellow face playing the worst. I mean, I mean- Most perverted. The most egregious, horrible, Japanese stereotype character that I have ever seen on film. Yeah. And I mean, like the, the,

Japanese officer characters in World War II movies, I was educated in your country at UCL A, is less offensive. Quite so, yeah. Is less offensive. Yeah. Then Mickey Rooney with a pair of coat bottle lens glasses. Yes. With his mouth all screwed up and bucktoothed. Yeah, bucktoothed prosthesis. Oh my just holy shit. Like, I was, and I was probably 23 or 24 when I saw the movie the first time. So this was 20 plus years ago, and then it was enough

for me to go, I don't know if I can keep watching this movie. Like this is just bad. So yeah, but you know, there are so many other things about it that are amazing. And Audrey Hepburn, of course, is just luminous on the screen. George Papard is his usual, like, how are you this charming self throughout the entire film? Yeah. It's really clear that most everybody in Falls was having an awful lot of fun.

Yep. Which always helps. You know, and I mean, there are, there are any number of reasons why this movie is iconic and is important within film. Mm hmm. But, but, Nicky,

Nicky, fucking a dude, why? Like, oh my God, man, why? Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, not just him, but whoever wrote the script, whoever's been directed, whoever did the casting, like, no, you're right.

No, yeah, everybody's complicit. You're right. Yeah, no, you're right. I know. Don't leave that at the very small feet of Mickey Rooney. Ooh. Hey, sorry, sorry short guy here.

What the hell? I don't have no just because we're short doesn't mean our feet are small, man. Come on, that's true. My daughter's feeder is enormous. Jesus. She's like the more L. Okay.

All right, so that's that's my that. Okay. All right. So that's my, that's mine. All right. Next one. Well, you've stayed in the baby boomer generations, Ira. I am going to bounce back to our era, Gen X era. Oh, shit. And you know what, we haven't done yet in this particular show.

What? We have not done one of our two hallmarks of mentioning wrestling or Ronald Reagan. Oh, so I'm going to mention Ronald Reagan. Okay. Yeah. That does question. That's not so.

Oh, the love song to capitalism under Reagan and libertarian ideology. Okay. It is a pro-Ragan universe in that universe. Yeah. And interestingly, that's not the part that I'm going to touch in this particular episode. I think I think I know. I think I know.

I think I know. It's our own discussion. Oh, yeah. Oh, it does. I think I know what we're going to be going into detail about here. Okay. Okay. I'm mentally.

Yeah. I think it down. I'm mentally writing it down. All right. Get it down. What do you got? So they did such a good job with that part that it actually still holds up. Yeah. In terms of like, wow, that's relatively consistent. At least it tells us like, oh, here's the hope in the ideology.

Of course, it relies, the hope in the ideology relies on being ready for an apocalypse that will happen Like if the ghost didn't start busting out Okay, all of that. Yeah, then then you did need the APA Yeah, but so I'm gonna ignore their disdain for regulations and academia and public services Here's what doesn't hold up is Pete Vanquen's dog and insistence that Dana wanted him to wanted him, despite her not wanting him and the ham-fisted damseling of Dana Barrett, Sigourney Weaver.

Yep, I'm being pointed out. That's the thing you chose. Yeah, because I actually, in my own notes, preparing for this episode, I, one of the films I put down was Ghostbusters. Oh, my whole, and my whole comment was, Vankman is just gross. Yeah, yeah.

Like, yeah, well, sorry to steal your thunder here, but no, no, no, go take it. Yeah. When he first meets Dana Barrett, he is immediately smitten. All right. Cool. Yeah. He uses his job as a way of hitting on her. Not cool.

And she's come to them seeking help and she's in a vulnerable state. And he's like, yeah, this is my time to shine. And she notices this and she reposts deathly. Multi-dives. And we can see it in her reactions to his advances. Quick little looks. It's a gurney and weaver is a fucking brilliant actor. Oh, she's a genius. Yeah, she's the best

part of of dances with undersmarse. Yeah. And that's what I was going to say is interesting leave. You've now brought up two films that are Sigourney Weaver. Whereas you've done two films where white people put on other people's make up. Yeah, well, yeah. So anyway, he takes, uh, he takes Miss Barrett back to her apartment to check her out. Beat. Then she looks at him incredulous. And he says, I'll go check out Miss Barrett's apartment. Okay. Um, like it's that kind of shit.

Uh, and it's that little look that she gives. She knows she absolutely knows, but also she's kind of at their whim. And she kind of has just accept this creepiness because he's the alpha of this group of nerds. He goes back to her apartment, rather insistently where he haphazardly looks around but mostly uses it as a chance to flirt with her. He looks in the kitchen, cursorally,

and he sees the eggs on the counter, which in this day and age, that's awful. But nothing really seems out of the ordinary. Remember the eggs popped out and fried on the counter talk about like really cool, like what are the practical effects? Yeah, it was amazing. And he's obviously totally out of his depth. And he's acting more like a game show host than a scientist.

And she's annoyed with him. And then he switches topics. And she's like, you know, you spent all this time, would you look in the kitchen? I'll go look in the kitchen. He looks and, oh my God, look at all the junk food. You God damn it, that wasn't here. This wasn't here.

I heard voices, I believe you. And then they walk out and, you know, she at all the junk food. You God damn it, that wasn't here. This wasn't here. I heard voices like, I believe you. And then they walk out and you know, she's like, oh great, that makes me feel so much better. And he's like, and then he starts like interrogating her, like any nice guy would, nice guy in finger quotes. And then he stops and he goes, I've got it. She's like, no, I'll prove myself to you. She's like, no, no, no, no, no.

And she tells him repeatedly that it's not necessary. And then he myself to you. She's like, no, no, no, no, no. And she tells him repeatedly that it's not necessary. And then he continues to beg her for a date pledging to solve her problems. Well, I'll solve your little problem, missing in order to impress her. And she, she literally puts her hand on him to keep him away. And he continues to advance. And then she says, and then, you know, because, you know, and I'll solve your little problem is he, you know what, you'll say Pete Venkman is a guy who can get things done. As he's saying this, she's guiding him out the door.

I wonder what makes him tick and she says, I wonder, I wonder if he'd be interested in knowing what makes me tick, right? And she's like, absolutely doing the, the emotional work that women have to do for like this. I bet you're going to be thinking about me after I'm gone. I bet I am. And before she can even lock the door, like he leans back, he opens it back up and leans in and goes, no kiss. And then she like, face me, I'll am them. And then yeah. So, you know, it's 1980. So that's cute and charming.

But, dude, this is something invasive as shit right here. He's there as a contractor to do an initial assessment on a job and he spends the whole time in her living space making her feel uncomfortable. And the thing is, the movie plays as charming, despite her refusing his multiple annoyances. And then this all breaks her down. Eventually, the Ghostbusters have a string of successes. And after this, with them being in the news and her laughing at them and their escapades while chopping vegetables in that same kitchen, in fairness, you only get one kitchen. So yeah, you're going to have to do the work in it.

Yeah, you're going to have to be doing that. Vankman meets her outside of her work. No phone call? No Come down to the office. We've got no he goes to her work, which again, creepy. Yeah, he flips with her. Found her and she again reposts magnificently and he talks about the conductor being a stiff. And she again reposts magnificently and he talks about the conductor being a stiff. You know, who's the sniff the stiff as the guy's putting afferent up his nose. And she reposts his rather adolescent attack against a man that she was talking about. Uh, and she said, do you have some information for me, please? And she's as annoyed as shit by this point.

And he of course then takes the information he's gotten tries to leverage it for a date with her because, you you know just asking her hasn't worked. So and he never really asks her either and she tells him, no, why don't you tell me now? Because he's like, well, I'd like to tell you over dinner. Why don't you tell me now? And he relents and tells Barrett about Zool, whom he has discovered is an associate with an ancient Sumerian god of destruction Gozer, and of course he pretends not to be able to read the word Hittites, which forces her to come into his proximity to read it. It's like, what's that word? Hittites, Hittites. But that notwithstanding

Bigman tells her that he'll go over it in more detail over dinner. And finally, she agrees to a date after he breaks down all of her defenses. Mm-hmm. After that, the movie damsels are pretty quickly. And the rest of the movie is him trying to rescue her. And he successfully does so. And they share a kiss as the credits are appearing. But this movie is a fantastic movie. The visual effects are amazing. The practical effects are terrific. It holds together so well, but for this enormous gaping asshole of a wound in it. And notably, not only does the trope of, well, you know, just keep hitting on her until she says, yes, right. Not only is that there, but but his co-workers, his co-workers are annoyed with him about it, but none of them ever have an ethical qualm to bring up with him about it. Right. Like he does this

all the time. Yeah, he starts the should he starts doing this Yeah, yeah in in there in their initial role as academics, right he's actively torturing a male student yeah as part of his attempts to get in the pants of a female student right who's I mean let's be generous and say she's 20. Yeah, I was just going to say Bill Murray at this point was, you know, twice a age. Yeah. Yeah.

He's doing a version of the Milgram experiment, actually. Yeah. So yeah, and shocking the hell out of the guy, you know, you can keep the five bucks. I've had it. I will, Mr. Yeah. I'm sorry, Jennifer. That's the kind of response you're going to get from from people with your gift. Do you really think I have it, Dr. Vankman? You're no fluke. It's like, yeah. Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. They absolutely

don't ever chastise them for it. Yeah. They just kind of, they even, they share a look looking to each other. You know, yeah, there he goes again. Yeah, it's like, yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's one that didn't age well. What do you go? All right. So everybody go ahead and unbutton that pocket. Yes. Unbutton that pocket. Everybody go ahead and unbutton that pocket. Yes, unbutton that pocket. That fly. Oh Let's let's not go that far Um, and if the other people are doing that to our our podcast, I think it's wonderful. Good for them. Yeah, okay Yeah, all right, you know, cool, but um, if you if you wrote down the Mel Brooks epic blazing saddles, then you win the no prize this evening. There you go.

Because here's the thing, this movie proves where I set it at the top, by the way. Yeah, well, yes. This time it was brilliant and it does not age well. It does not, it does not age well at all. If you if you sit down to watch it now, Gene Wilder's performance is incredible. I want to say it was Gene Karris playing Mongo Alex. Alex Karris.

Alex Karris is Mongo is is hysterically funny. Oh, yeah, and and Clevon little is so good. He owns this movie. He totally owns this movie. And I think it is important to note that as the audience, if you're paying attention, you know that the target, the person who's being punched at, is not the Chinese people or the black folks or any of the minority groups that are depicted in the film. Right. It's the town of Warris.

Yeah. Oh, they're all named Johnson for Christ's sake. Yeah, well, yeah, you're not wrong. But, yeah, you know, the targets of the punchlines are the idiotic racists living in rock ridge, right? Yeah. And so that's a peaceful town called rock ridge. Yes, a peaceful count on a Rockridge. Yeah. But did you have to use the N word

quite so much? Mel 127 times? Like, like the number of times you like, there are so many bits in this movie that did not have to be unwatchable. Right. 40 years later, if you had just not used that specific word, like if you'd found any other way to do it, I mean, the bit where they're doing reconnaissance on the bad guys by dressing up in KKK ropes. You know, what's your crime?

Stampede in cattle? Yeah. That's not much of a crime through the Vatican. Thank you. Sign here like That's oh my god. Yeah, but but no um, you know and and the sequence where it's it's all the Cowboys sitting around the campfire and it's it's all the Cowboys sitting around the campfire and it's just one Contents it's a single take one continuous series of fart noises. Yeah, like

Yeah, I get that that's not classy, but but even thinking about it. I'm having a hard time And what it's on the screen. I disintegrate. Like I fall apart. Oh, yeah. But it's just you can't, you can't even show the TV edited version of this film. Well, I mean, it wouldn't fill in for an hour. It would fill in. Like you could show that and the TV edited version of like basic instinct.

And you'd still need to fill in like 15 minutes of 15 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In a half an hour. Yeah. Yeah. And the whole and the whole subplot with, you'll still forget any actresses name Lily Von Stup. I can remember the kill. Madeline Conne. Madeline Conne. Madeline Conne's character switching sides, like going from working for the bad guy to working for them, all because of spending the night with Sheriff Bart and, you know, it's twow, it's twow, it's twow, like, I mean, here's the thing, what have I always said about satire? Satire has a shelf life of half of a generation. Yeah. This is remarkably coarse and broad and brilliant satire from 1974. Yeah.

Or 72. I forget which. Yeah. I mean, shit, it was written right with 74. It was written by Brooks and Richard Pryor. Yeah. Like, it is written by guys who are taking the piss out of society.

Oh yeah. And that's why it's funny anymore to people. Yeah. And like talking about Richard Pryor, this is the movie, but the skit that he did, I want to say the only time he was on Saturday and live with him and Chevy Chase where uh oh they do the word association. Yeah word association. Yes. You know honky. Dad honky. Right. So like that is that is house stick like unbelievably cutting satire and it's goddamn funny.

There's no way no way on earth because because even though it is satire, it is offensive. Yeah. Well, I mean, it is deeply, you know, if you look at SNL now, they're, they're doing remarkably hilarious satire, which in 10 years probably won't age well. I mean, when you have black jeopardy and you have a bag of guy on black jeopardy and you start to see the overlap, that's funny. You know, and you get a Kenan Thompson and that's how they get you. Yeah. you get a Kenan Thompson and that's how they get you. Yeah. Yeah. And you get Kenan Thompson as a morning show reporter. And oh, God, I forget the name of all the other people on that, on that. There's like three people. There's him, a black woman, and then two white people.

And they're basically talking about, you know, oh, this person is on the loose keep an eye out for him and the suspect is white. And then he and she like slap hands and they're like, yes. And they're like, what? No, we just were really glad that you're finding the information and getting that out there. And then it becomes a competition. And it's like, you know, well, okay, fuck this. Okay, that's, you know, a black person is like, God damn. Okay, okay, you guys get that one and it becomes a, you know, it's a really funny skit. And of course they turn things on their head. They're like, okay, a man died rock climbing

and the both of white people like, oh Jesus. And his name is Laquan Ellis and they're like, what the fuck, who goes rock, you know, and it's like, it's hilarious, right? It's really funny. In 10 years, it won't be. I'm gonna have to look that one up. Oh, it's good. it's hilarious, right? It's really funny in 10 years. I'm gonna have to look that one up. Oh, it's good.

In 10 years, it won't be just like when Michael Chee and the white guy, I don't know, I don't remember his name from the SNL news desk, they write jokes for each other. And the white guy always writes jokes for Michael Chee to make him like seem like just a really shitty man to women. And then Michael Chey always writes jokes to for the white guy to make him seem like a horrible racist. And they don't see them until the show goes up. They don't see them until they're on the cards and they have to read the cards.

Oh man. It's such a good conceit. It's so funny. And it will not be in a good 10 to 15 years. Yeah. So yeah. All right. But yeah, this is a fantastic satire that yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. So yeah, say what your favorite line is or is it to to try? say what your favorite line is or is it to to try? The little bastard shot me in the ass. It's a real one.

Little bastard shot me in the ass. Yeah, it is a good one. And the whole pantomime bit with Clevon holding a gun to his own head. Okay, yeah, yeah, just that whole that whole bit is brilliantly done. bit with Clevon a little holding holding a gun to his own head. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Just that whole, that whole bit is brilliantly done. And it's really clear that that's Richard Pryor's writing like that. Yes. Yes. That whole segment. Yeah.

But yeah, there's just, there's no way. So mine is one of the ones when they're in line. And it's, you know, how are we going to get inside? And you see these two guys in the KKK hoods. And it's like, hey boys, look what I got here. And he pulls Cleveland little. Yeah. And he goes, hey, where do I women at?

And then they go running after them, right? Yeah. And then the best part though is afterwards you get a screen wipe and they, oh, that was good. I like that. That was, that was the, no, no. The shit out of them.

Yeah. You kicked the shit out of the guys, take the robes. Yeah. And the way I always heard the line was, that was pretty no. No, shit out of them. Yeah, kick the shit out of the guys take the rose. Yeah, and and the way I always heard the line was that was pretty. I liked that. Yeah, yeah. And then the other, uh, there was there was another one that was just, you know, I love those throwaway line type type jokes.

But, oh, God, what was it? It was, um, I don't come to me later. Yeah. Uh, yeah, such a such a good movie, um, that'll come to me later. Yeah. Yeah. Such a such a good movie, that I will probably never show my children like, yeah, it's, it was good for its time and it was, it was even good for our, I think it outlasted my general rule. Yeah. I think it did, but we've changed. Probably because society, state is raised as racist as it did for as long as it did like Yes, loneliness of society making progress probably has but not only racist almost compared to what it is now

Yeah, yeah, it's much meaner. So well, I've got one for you Okay, you ready? Yeah This one's from 1999. So this is only a generation and some change old. Okay. American beauty. Oh, fuck. Okay.

Yeah, okay. It won the Academy Award for Best Picture That year. Yeah, it did. I actually won tickets to it by impersonating the throne room scene in Return of the Jedi, recast with the unimpressive clergyman as the emperor, Jimmy Stewart as Luke, because for walking his Darth Vader, did on like a radio competition. And so I won tickets to it. Yeah.

Back when the case street was almost the case street mall. Yeah. Anyway, the movie was actually really well made. The lighting on it is fantastic. The mizincene is terrific. The acting is terrific. Lester Burnham is absolutely trapped in his world and it's sucking the life and vigor away from him.

All the colors that, and that's Kevin Space's character, all the colors that he wears are very bland. They're very uncomfortable. They're very washed out. There's a scene where he's on his monitor at work and the numbers look like bars keeping him in a prison. His wife on the other hand is wearing bland colors, but they're darker in tone. He's more pastel. She's more drab and she's all about her very vibrant roses. And those are kept in the front of the house, and they're kept on the table in a very well manicured spot. And so she cares

about that outward appearance of beauty, despite her unhappiness. The outside of their house is very vibrant. Like I said, she's, she's wants to keep the appearance of life, if not the reality of it in her image. There are daughter wears rich, but very dark colors. And the casting is absolutely perfect. Kevin Spacey's baritone plays so flatly in the beginning, unless he's faking passion to anyone. And at Benning's manic shrillness, we speak someone who is so desperate to keep up with his parents is that she's a cartoon of what she wants. And Thor a birch is very flat affect is just dripping with bitterness and disaffection. And then you add to that performances of Chris Cooper, Alison Janie, Wes Bentley and Minasawari, it is

a phenomenal director, phenomenally directing phenomenal actors through and through. Oh, and also it's got the guy from Clash of the Titans in it. So I forget his name, of course, the guy who's the real estate king. Yeah, the problem is that this is some fucked up shit ultimately. And in many ways, I think it was kind of a fun house mirror

to hold up to America in 1999 in Clinton, America. And at the same time, it's still, it's one of those, it is not okay on any level. What was done in this movie? Yeah, well, you know, it's a much more somber and much darker version of what I said about Blazing Saddles. Did you have to do that quite so much? Right. You know? Yeah.

Lester Burnham is trying to reclaim the passion in his life, right? He begins lusting after his daughter's pretty and super bitchy friend. They're both underage. He doesn't even meet her until after he sees her perform as a cheerleader. So you can't even say that it's her bichiness that attracts him. It's all physical. He's physically attracted to a child, which this doesn't. A middle-aged man lusting after a 17-year-old was creepy

even then. Then you add on onto it the reality of the charges that were brought by the British government against Kevin Spacey on behalf of five different plaintiffs. Multiple of whom were 17 at the time of the alleged crimes. But, you know, if you stick only to the story in the movie, it's still wrong in all of the ways. But knowing what we know about him now, it's so much worse.

Like the redemption in death that his character kind of has at the end of the film. Yeah. Where the full arc of he has found some kind of kind of the. Yeah. Yeah. And at the end of the film, he is confronted with what he has wanted for most of the film. And he turns it down.

Oh, yeah. And I'll get to why he does that too. Like, yeah. But we now know in the real world that Kevin Stacey's face on that character does not work for that for us anymore. Right. Right.

It's really, this is one of those art and artist kind of things, you know, separate the art and the artist kind of thing. I don't think you should have to since the artist is still alive and reaping the profits of you liking the art. The screenwriter wrote Minasuvari's character, who I don't remember her name, as presenting slutty, not actually slutty. She pretends to have had all kinds of sex, and she uses it in social situations to like gain clout amongst her peers to have some sort of social capital. And we see that. So we're being primed to understand why he's keening that way. And we also see the positive impacts that this focus has had on him. And I think this is really

where it's it's a problem because he wants to fuck his daughter's 17 year old friend. He starts working out more. And it wants to fuck his daughter's 17 year old friend, he starts working out more. And it actually starts improving his life. He starts wearing, he starts tending to himself. He starts working out. He quits his soul sucking job. He smokes really good pot. He wears brighter colors. He walks taller. He enjoys music more. All because he wants to look good naked on account of his really fucked up crush with his daughter's 17 year old friend. And then he goes and starts peeping on her in weird ways. He even uses his daughter's own phone to call her, her name is Angela, if I recall, to call her.

And then, you know, of course she answers the phone. He doesn't know what to do, you know, because like he hadn't thought it through and he hangs up immediately and runs away. And this gets him caught by his daughter. So it further alienates the two of them. So like this is all bad, but on balance, it's improving his life. He even improves his relationship with his wife with his newfound passion. And it's almost rekindles something before she starts to worry about a couch because he recognizes how hot she looks.

And one of the reasons she looks so hot is because she started having an affair. And so she's feeling well-tended too because their marriage is loveless and mostly just miserable and sad. So she comes home and like chastises him for being an adolescent. And he's like, whoa, did you do your hair? You look great. And she's like, well, you know, I, there's a lot about me. You don't know. And he's like reminiscing about the early parts of the ship. And they actually

start to rekindle things. And then she's like, Oh, Lester, you're going to spill beer on the couch. She's like, it's just a fucking couch. And she's like, this, this couch is, and she goes into performance mode of like, to $4,000 from silk from Italy. And he freaks out on that. And then she leaves.

And he's very grateful that this failed failed that they could have had something again. And then he then of course he starts focusing on himself again, which fine take care of yourself. Um, and then he starts getting lusty for his daughter's friend again and he starts fantasizing about her having dreams about her and we're all subject to that. Um, transferring his wife's roses to her naked underage body in his dreams. So I'm again, incredible visuals in terms of like what the metaphor means and stuff like that. But fuck, dude. And the thing is, Minaswari was actually an adult at this point. Yeah. So, but she's playing an underage person. So I don't like that. Yeah, the context, the context of the story is deeply troubling. Yes. You know, also Thorough Birch was not an adult in this. She was only 16. Oh, seriously, which calls into question that topless scene while her parents had signed off on it because her parents were fucking weird.

Um, they're all about art and shit like that and like made decisions on her behalf. Um, Archmark, it's a minor on screen. Don't, uh, no. Yeah, sorry. Same thing with Zeffarelli's films, by the way. Um, there's recently been some discussion of Romeo and Juliet, those characters, those, those, those, those, oh yeah, because they were both underage as well. Yeah. And they were naked. Yeah.

Um, so anyway, uh, when it finally comes to it, Minas Uari's character, Angela, uh, has a kind of, has kind of written herself into a corner by pretending to want to have sex with Lester to gross out her friend, Lester's daughter, and have some sort of hierarchical power over her. Like basically, I'm going to fuck your dad. I'm going to do it, you know, and she's like, you're so gross, would you stop? And like, no, I'm going to do it. And then like, she actually goes up to him.

She's like, you've been working out. And his daughter just storms off and he's like, do you like muscles? And then it gets weird and she walks away. So then she ends up in the situation where the adult in the room is the one who's been lusting after her and she doesn't know how to back away from what she's claimed to be true,

which is that she wants him. And she ends up getting topless and he's sliding off her bottoms. And he's starting to kiss her in all the places. And then she says that she's a virgin. And at that point, he stops because he realizes what a child she is by virtue of the fact that she's a virgin, not anything else,

but her saying that. And he even says he's like, you're kidding. And she's like, no I I want to do this I just want you to know why it won't be good at that moment. He breaks and He realizes that oh my god. She's a virgin. She's a kid. She's like my daughter And at that point he gives her a hug and it's a very tender hug and a very like oh honey This is terrible. You need to be comforted hug But he's also the perpetrator of this.

Like at the exact same moment. So it's, it's just awful. And having come back from the brink, brink of being extra creepy and shitty, he finally seems to have balanced things out, right? And, and all it really took was a teenage girl exposing herself to him and his thinking of her as his daughter to figure it all out while she's naked. And then he gets to die. Yeah. Now for the extra creepy part. Oh, we haven't had the extra creepy part yet. No, no. In order to prepare for the roles and the scenes that they were in, actors will often rehearse together in different ways and whatnot, right? Now at that time, Minasurari, uh, Suvari, Suvari, was recovering from and going through some pretty dark times. She was in a really bad relationship. She was in her early 20s. She didn't feel herself worth much and she claimed that the movie was actually a respite from that reality.

On set, she was made to feel very important and special. Okay. She claims in her memoir that she identified with the character she played, the one that lester burnham's listing after. Quote, I knew how to play that role because I was so schooled in it. Oh, you want me to be sexually attractive? Done. She said, I felt unavailable in a million other ways, but I knew how to play that card. It feels a little bit like the casting director and the director took advantage of someone who is in a bad place emotionally to be able to better direct them. This is this is Tippy Hedron kind of territory in that. Yeah. I want to know for days and days and days and then for a zatter.

Yeah. So before we make that comparison, and before we go that far with that comparison, I want to know how much the casting director, producer, director, everybody understood about the depth of the situation that she was in. Right. Because she could have been masking, right? Yeah. So it could be that they didn't know this when they casted her, but it's really hard to claim fully non-willful ignorance once the shooting starts, though, especially for this next part. In her memoir, Savari goes on,

quote, between setups, Kevin took me into a small room with a bed, and we laid next to each other, me facing toward him while he held me lightly. I wondered if he had discussed this with Sam Mendez, or if it was something he premeditated as a way to prepare us both for the intimacy we needed to share, or if it was a spur of the moment idea, whatever it was it worked. Lying there with Kevin was strange and eerie but also common peaceful. And as for his gentle caresses, I was so used to being open and eager for affection that it felt good just to be touch. So cool. Take a touch starved affection starved actress in her young 20s and have her alone in a private and intimate setting and interaction, and then do it for the quote intimacy needed for the scenes that they're going to do. Now, I am all for rehearsal. Absolutely. I'm really, but having

this particular setting with the power dynamics of being what they are for a young and admittedly suffering from abuse actress who is just getting her start in a big way and Kevin Spacey being the experienced actor he is and Sam Mendes being who he is, it's an extra layer of kind of fucked up, even if we're just gonna completely ignore his sex crimes, it's fucked up considering the subject matter of the movie itself. She

continued by saying that she immediately thought Spacey was interested in her stating quote, I didn't know how far he was going to take it or how I was going to react if he did go there, but he didn't. We just lay there getting close and comfortable. That's gross. Like you put her in a situation where she doesn't know how far he's going to take it and she doesn't feel the agency to be able to leave. Like that's... So yeah, that movie did not age well. Never mind his sex crimes. Just a little bit of the subject matter. So another one I can't show my kids. Yeah.

Now that's definitely, definitely longs on the list. Yeah. I would certainly agree. I see. I mean, unless we have a lighthearted one to end with. No. No. Okay. Let's just leave people really uncomfortable. I think, yeah. Well, you know, as historians part of our job is to

afflict the comfortable. So yeah. Yeah. I've got several others, but I think this is actually a good stopping point time. Yeah. So sorry audience strongly recommend you spend your money from the no prize on some ice cream right now Yeah, maybe a brillo pad and take a shower Really, you know here's here's I'm sorry everyone How do what what I want to say about it though is the very fact that these movies can't be watched anymore I think is a sign that we've moved forward as a society. That is a really good point. I think, you know, I mean, it's awful to think about, oh my God, this horrible, terrible racist, sexist, manipulative, abusive shit, was just... Well, you know, I mean, that's what dudes do, you know, right?

Right. Kind of stuff. And the tropes that we used in our stories were not enlightened, but it's crazy. It's crazy. Well, reflection. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, but now we've now we've moved into a place where you and I are even having this conversation

Mm-hmm like you and me as a couple of middle-aged white dudes are Having this conversation about yeah, dude this shit did not age well We are like the default that these movies are aimed at yeah, and for us to be sitting there going Yeah, this is a dude that is a good sign. You're right. You're absolutely right. So I think I think I think as much as contemplating the awesomeness of American beauty is uncomfortable. I think the very fact that we are uncomfortable thinking about it says that we as a dominant culture have gotten better. We are less shitty than we used to be.

Okay. You know, and so that's the silver lining to this particular cloud would be my takeaway. Okay. Yeah. I'm cool with that. Okay. I'm cool with that. Okay, I'm cool with that. What are you gonna recommend to people to read? What am I gonna recommend to people to read? I am going to very strongly recommend that people go out and find the once in future king

because just before recording, my wife and I were watching the sword in the stone with our little boy, and that is a particular telling of the legend of King Arthur that I think is resident and meaningful in a modern setting. So I'm going to go with that. I like it. How about you? is resonant and meaningful in a modern setting. So I'm gonna go with that. I like it. How about you? I'm gonna recommend Foley is Good. And the real world is faker than wrestling by Mick Foley. It was a New York Times bestseller.

I think it's his second or third memoir. It's relentlessly sweet and decent. I mean, here you've got a guy who made his career because set on fire, made bloody, thrown off of things, thrown through things. Stick it as tongue through a hole in his lip. Right. That was made seconds earlier, you know.

All these things, making people afraid that he was going to hurt a super heroic undertaker character. And he writes with such a sweetness and such a, God, it's not quite self-aware, but like, self-possessed. Okay. And just an honest integrity. And that is a good palette cleanser for for what we did to you today. So I recommend that. And I guarantee you we're gonna have other episodes of this topic.

Well, because it's the gifts up. I'm giving, really. Yeah, you know. I mean, you know that I'm going to bring up for us, gum at some point. Oh, if you don't, I'll be pissed. Yeah. So yeah, there's all kinds of good stuff. Um, but

anyway, uh, yeah, that's that's what I'm going to recommend. Um, Holy is good. All right. Cool. Good. Working folks find you. Um, I can be found on TikTok as Mr. underscore play lock. Um, as Mr. underscore belaylock and I can be found as catfetchedger, pardon me, on Twitter for as long as that site manages to not, you know, combust into a ball of purple flame. And then we collectively of course can be found at our website at www.geekhistorytime.com. You can also find us on Twitter as Geek History Time. And you have already found us either at our website or on one of the streaming services where you can find the podcast. Wherever you've found us, please take a moment

to subscribe and give us the five-star review that you know we've earned. Where can you be found us please take a moment to subscribe and give us the five-star review that you know we've earned. Where can you be found, sir? You know what? You can find me, let's see, by the time this airs, March 3rd we're going to be at Luna's at 8 p.m. Please have proof of wax, bring $10 for capital punishment. And if you miss the March 3rd show, then go to the April 7th show, which is going to be back at Henry's. So if you came to the first Henry show, come back for the second Henry's show, also in Sacramento, bring $10 proof of vaccination, wear a frickin mask, and buy some food. But we got some really killer lineups set up

for you for that. So yeah, capital punishment, both on March 3rd and April 7th. And for some reason, you've decided to start listening to this after April 7th, then May 5th we're going to be back at Luna's. So. All right. But yeah, that pretty much will take care of it. So well, for a geek history of time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Laylock. And until next time, keep rolling 20s.