A Geek History of Time - Episode 263 - Andor Went Woke And.Or Marxist with Gabriel Gipe Part III

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

["The Greatest Showman"] Walt Disney. Yes. Beloved, beloved figure of our pop culture. That's how they get you. Yada yada, she eventually causes her own husband to be burned to death. And that makes me so happy on cold nights.

It especially ended badly for the idiot Pecker Woods. Have a bottle of scotch. Okay, that's twice that he's mentioned redheads. Ha ha. It is un-American to get in the way of our freedom to restrict people's freedom. That was the point. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. I know plenty about these things. I love me some Bobby Drake. Yeah, well if that's all we've got then we're being really lazy. Yeah. Y'all bone. You can literally poke a hole in it as soon as someone gets pneumonia. Well, I'm not as old as you.

Well, haha motherfucker, I got a wizard. This is a Geek History of Time. Where we connect nerdery to the real world. My name is Ed Blaylock. I'm a world history and English teacher here in Northern California. And earlier today, I had the wonderful fun, and I'm mostly being sarcastic, but not entirely, of getting a new cabinet and countertop installed in part of my kitchen. Since we have moved into this house, I have had to jockey between one counter on one side of the kitchen where all the prep work happens and then turning around in order to get to the stove and then not having any prep area

next to the stove just because of the way our cabinets work. So we spent, my wife and I spent last night putting together a cabinet which is a whole adventure in and of itself. Flat pack furniture. Yay. And so then this morning we headed to Home Depot and we got a beautiful butcher block countertop to put on top of it. Got that all anchored down, had to move everything in the kitchen to make it all fit.

So our garbage can is now in a new place, which has thrown both of us off like multiple times just in the last couple of hours since we got it all done. But I was able while I was making dinner tonight, I was able to set my drink down next to the stove instead of having to set it amongst all of the stuff I was prepping and losing it like three times. And so yeah, I feel I feel pretty goddamn accomplished right now. And I think I broke Damien by saying that. So speaking of which, who are you? Damien Harmony, I'm a US history teacher up here in Northern California, and I'm just laughing at how so middle class you have become.

Hell yes. There is zero proletariatness in what you just talked about. None. None. None. But what I really do appreciate, at all done. No, no, but what I really appreciate. Oh go ahead however Fuck Nazis okay, and and Union thug for life. Okay cool Yeah, so union is what got you there. Yes, and I fully recognize that in a no way I'm gonna betray my Union brethren and sister in no fuck that

I'm as bougie as they get like I'm not even gonna like no I mean I had that moment I had that same moment helping my brother move into an apartment and I was I was like I'll help you do the walkthrough so you know what to look for because this is first apartment That was not the army, you know And I'm going through and I'm like, wow, these cabinets are shit and then I was like since when do I care about cabinets? What the hell I felt like such a class traitor Such a classist fucking oh my god But the cabinets were shit too. Well. I mean yeah, you know but I gotta ask

so you now have it right there next to you and So you've got your counter you've got your stove, and you've got this butcher block Yeah, so you have close encounters of the third kind. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, physical, full physical contact. Nice. Cool. Well, okay, so here I am laughing at you. Yeah. And you will get to throw it all back in my face in like 30 seconds. Today I took my son to a local zoo and I had contacted them a while back and set this up in advance. It's actually the only zoo in America that does this that's AZT qualified. Or AZA actually, sorry. I think AZT is the drug cocktail for HIV.

I don't know if they're qualified for that. But... The AZA, American Zoo Zoological Association? I believe so, yeah. They're the only ones that are qualified. There's one in Florida that does it, but it's Florida. So, and it's not AZA. But my son got to feed a cheetah today. No shit.

Dead serious. It's all about. It's all the pictures. It's pretty wow that is so Freaking cool. He is so he was over the fucking moon. I'm sure oh my god. Yeah, so here I am there's there's a certain level of Privilege going on there like yeah I called ahead of time made all the arrangements. Right, yeah. Yeah, you know. It wasn't cheap. But yeah, that was some of my retro check from last year.

Nice. So a question, I did see a picture that looked like you were handling some sort of animal fecal matter. Or was that you were making the treats to feed the children? We were making the treats, yeah. Okay, thank God. All right. You know, whatever.

But it was cool. We had a nice long talk about, because I know a thing or two about a thing or two, but only a thing or two about every thing or two. And so the meat that we fed them was horse meat. And I was like, wow, I thought that was banned in this state 20 years ago, because there was this huge thing in a hullabaloo in the 90s and all this. And so we had a nice long talk about the legislation

that allows that and then the this and the that. And it was a lot of fun. It was a good time. Yeah, so. Cool, cool. Yeah, my son was over the moon about it. I'm sure. Oh, yeah. That is so cool. Yeah, my son was over the moon about it. I'm sure. Oh, yeah.

That is so cool. It is. So we have a third person again in here. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages, everybody on either side and in between any of those descriptions, please welcome back Mr. Gabriel Geip. Hello, sir. Ooh, hello. Glad to be back. And I am actually here to absolve you of your class trader sins

because from the Marxist analysis, there are only two classes and it is not determined by your income. It is determined by your relationship to the appropriation of surplus value and the means of production. So I'm going to say that both of you, despite your bourgeois tendencies are still thoroughly working class because you really don't have anything other than your labor to sell. That's true. What I'm bringing up that happened is also pretty bougie because I I own a home and by that I mean I pay a bank to live in my home rather than a landlord and We got a notice We've been here for about four years and we just recently got a notice that our home insurance is dropping us for get this

Our roof being too old. Oh Shit really which which is fundamentally to me like the most insurance thing that could happen. They were like, Oh, this thing is getting to the point where you might need to replace it. We're going to drop you before you do. Now you have about five months to find a new carrier and new policy. So I've been reaching out to a bunch of different, you know, insurance companies and I've been getting a lot of California's really hard to insure right now. We'll see what we can do Wow. Yeah

They're like driving you through the cracks. They're not even yeah, I'm shoving you. Yeah Yeah, and then I also found out which I did not know and I'm not sure of either you are aware that California has a state home insurance policy that if no other insurers will cover you, you can buy a policy from the state and it's like a liability type thing. If you were driving a car, like it's the bare minimum, right? Like, they're going to, you know, and it's just like to really cover, if someone gets hurt on your property, but if you have any kind of damage to your, your house,

you're kind of up a creek without a paddle. So that's been really fun to navigate these. Wow. I am so sorry that that sucks. Like the medical equivalent of that is like, hey, we saw that you broke your knee dropping you. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, to be fair, there was a time before the Affordable Care Act, and I don't

have a lot of love for that, but where people could get dropped for their age or for a lot of other factors that they now deemed illegal. It's not cool. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, you know, people are able to get insurance regardless of a lot of external factors that are outside of their control. So, you know, it's like car insurance, home insurance, these things that you have to have if you are lucky enough to own either of those things, but they make it incredibly difficult.

Right. Yeah. Well, you you you you have to do it in order to feed yourself, but we only want you to eat once a day. Right. Yeah. And it's going to be gruel. Right. Yeah. It's going to be second press gruel, too. Yeah. Or like an unflavored food product that comes out of a tube. And if you're lucky enough

You can win flavor for it if you work hard enough Wow Master of Segways Nicely done. That is well done. Yeah So tell us last we spoke we were we were discussing Andor And I believe we're not done yet so take it away. You know I just have so much love for Star Wars in general but I don't know if either of you watch the show Fargo on FX. Have you seen the film?

I want to but I have not had the chance. I have seen the movie. It's fantastic. The movie's fantastic. It's been one of my favorite Coen Brothers films for a long time, but the show is also great. Five seasons so far, all of them slightly related, but they're all separate storylines. Anyways, we just started the third season and Ewan McGregor's in it, and it was hilarious. I love him. He's one of my favorite actors. And my wife and I were watching it and I was like, Oh, that's that's Ewan McGregor. And she was like, Oh,

is that the one that helps Ray? And I was like, that was Luke. He does say her name once. He is part of all the Jedi. Yeah. True. That's sad. That's sad. I concur.

I know a lot of women who are fans of Star Wars, but I know a lot more men who are fans of Star Wars, so it is geared toward the fellas in general. Yeah, it has been historically since the beginning, yeah. And just in case it's not enough, enough of the fandom will pop quiz women who do say they like it to the point where they just flee from it Anyway, so right like that part of the fandom ranks and and that part of any fandom not just Star Wars but like I'm I'm I'm in I mean a number of fandoms that like

Those people rank right below Nazis on the punch on site list like no fuck you stop that like List like no fuck you stop that like Yeah, it's the the wearing it's you know, like when you see someone wearing a band shirt and you're like tell me three songs You know, yeah, right. Yeah, like like no one cares. Yeah Why are you actively trying to make everything in the world worse? people love like why Yeah Yeah People love gay people. Like why? Yeah. And yeah. Anyway. You know, it could be consistently part of human nature, which I think ties into the

thing that we've been talking about in the last two episodes, which is Marxism, because Marxism often gets accused of not being aligned with human nature. So the first and second episode that we have done on Andor, we kind of did a dive into the background of Marxism and then Leninism and then Maoism. And then we dove into different lenses that you can analyze culture and entertainment from a Marxist perspective. And then we also talked about the different settings in Andorra. And today I want to dive into some of the characters that are prevalent in the show

and kind of break them down from a Marxist perspective. And the first one, which I'm hoping that Damien can provide us with some of the extended universe lore of this particular character, because I think that they're very important and for a very long time were the only other woman in Star Wars with a name, drum roll, Mon Mothma. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. So Mon Mothma was, you know, the, in Rogue One, at the point in Rogue One, kind of showed

how she was an outward representative of the Rebellion. But in Andor, she's a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, showed how she was an outward representative of the rebellion. But in Andor, she's still very much an undercover operative. And she is the, you know, I'm totally, I feel like I've been terribly prepared because I did not write down the name of the planet that she's this. Chandra law. Chandra law that she's this Chandra law Chandra law. Yeah or Chandrila. I mean, yes, Chandrila Yeah, there you go. Clearly meant to evoke Shangri-La

Exactly. Yes. Yeah And and she is the one of the senators believe the only senator because they don't show any others Especially within the scenes of her speaking in the Senate. And what I really appreciate about her character, and I'm going to pull a little bit, because we talked about Bertil Brecht in the last episode, and this idea of epic theater, right? The point of epic theater is to suspend disbelief, that though Star Wars itself is all very fantastical and is full of constant spectacles,

like we talked about with Dabord, What I appreciate about Andor in particular with Mon Mokhna's character is that there is a tremendous amount of real world relatability to her as a politician and her involvement with the rebellion. And what I really appreciate is that What I really appreciate is that her kind of naivety of the path that she's chosen and how they show that in the show. Like she wants to help build the rebellion, right? But she also really wants to keep the gloves on. She hasn't fully articulated how far she wants to keep the gloves on. Right? She's not, she hasn't fully articulated how far she wants to go. And maybe she doesn't even realize how far she wants to go when it comes to supporting the rebellion. She just knows that what's happening is wrong, and that she has a

platform to do something about it. So she's going to use it. Right? I would say, I would say with her that she is a moralist and she is a principled person who has always worked within the system and believes that it can be reformed from within. It's that if we have one hand on the wheel, we can kind of guide where it's going. We can then be a tension point to pull the emperor back and then eventually we can outlast him as an institution after all the Republic's been around her for 25,000 years at this point, right? And I think that during the time of both Rogue One and

Yes, actually during Rogue One and during Andor, which is preceding it The Imperial Senate still exists like they literally write it out of existence in the boardroom scene in episode four. And I think that after it ceases to exist, she does end up having to acknowledge how there is no turning back. Prior to that, I think she's able to keep that gauze over her eyes, and with good reason. She is in some ways gas lit by her own success and her own privilege, and she's part of a cutscene where Padme meets with a whole bunch of senators to talk about creating the petition of 2000,

many of whom are kept on watch after that point, but she petitions the emperor to tell him, Hey, what you're doing is illegal. She is in many ways like you, I, I sorry if I'm stealing your thunder here. Now please reminds me of Nancy Pelosi. I will play by the rules. I will gather power in the old ways and I will outrule you." And she's going against somebody who's like, yeah, but what if I wasn't decent? And she's like, but I'm wearing Kente cloth.

Look at me. I'm supporting the right thing. And you very well might be, but your naivete and belief in the system, which you've predicated your entire life on, you've played by those rules and done very, very well. We're in new territory here, Mon. And now in the EU, her mother was the governor of Chandrala. Her father was the, oh, he's like the attorney general basically of the republic, whatever that actual job was. like the attorney general basically of the republic whatever that actual job was. Wow. All right. So she's born to a governmental family. She's born to an aristocratic. We owe

our service to these people. She's kind of the same cloth quite honestly as Bail Organa. Yeah. They're very similar. Yeah, very much. So yeah, she is. She is all of those things, right? And in another time, she would have been an excellent footnote to a boring time. A counselor. Yeah, you know? She would have been one of the forgettables, but who didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. Right.

Who maybe even got more people fed that we would rather ignore anyway, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. That she wouldn't have stopped slavery on Tatooine. Right. But she maybe would have put bumpers along the rails of Malastare's pod racing.

Mm-hmm. You know, and maybe taxed and legalized gambling. Yeah. That would have been it. And there's a scene in Andor where she's addressing the Senate about, you know, making sure that supplies can get to a planet that is being essentially embargoed, right? And how it's leading to starvation.

And what I like about the fact we first saw Mon Mothma in Return of the Jedi when she informs us that, you know, many Bothans died to get the plans and that the Emperor is overseeing the final details of the Death Star 2. That since we see her in that role first, we have a very different perspective of her coming into the scenes in Andor and seeing her kind of like, okay, this is where she started. Right? and and or and seeing her kind of like, okay, this is, this is where she started. Right. Yes. Um, and, and I think that, you know, from the, the Marxist perspective, like this, this is the, the, um, the futility of engaging in the electoral arena with an imperialist military might, right.

Um, that there is, there is obviously reforms that could be made. There are ways in which the Senate can act to defend oppressed people, but ultimately at the end of the day, they have no real power and they aren't going to do anything to be able to turn the tide against oppression and exploitation. And what I think that in her, the antithesis to her in Andor is, is Luthen. And we talked a little bit about Luthen previously, but he is, you know, has this facade as an antiquities dealer. And he's also absolutely willing to do whatever it takes to make the most of it. And so he's, he's a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, devotee to the revolutionary cause. And he's also absolutely willing to do whatever it takes to be successful. And one of their exchanges that I really enjoyed, um, is after the Aldani heist, which I think is, um, I think was kind of based off of the Moncada barracks attack in Cuba prior to the revolution. If you don't have historical context to that, it was the failed attempt to overthrow the Bautista regime. Fidel Castro and about a hundred other people attempted essentially to take over military

barracks, gain a foothold of power weapons, and then like spread the revolution out. They were woefully unprepared. The things that they thought were going to happen didn't happen. A massive amount of them died and Fidel ended up spending like three years in prison, but it happened on July 26th, which is what spurned the 26th of July movement, which led to the revolution. But anyways, how Donnie is that spark, right? In, in Andor, like it's, it's the beginning of what they see as like a real revolutionary moment that they can take hold of and after the, the robbery, where they take an entire Imperial payload, it dawns on Mon Mothma

that this is the event that she has been supporting without understanding the gravity of what it was that was going to happen. And as she, as it dawns on her, you know, she, she's kind of like frantic, but she's got to keep her cool. Cause she's playing a role and she's in the antiquity shop with Luther and Annie. And he's like, like, what do you think was going to happen? Right. Like you said that you were for this cause. Like it's a, it's a whatever it takes power, power grows from the barrel of a gun type moment here. Like,

if you don't want to know, then you don't need to know, but this is where the money's going and this is what's happening. And like, this is how things need to get done and and I really think that Lutheran is a good example of the Professional revolutionary right like he's he's not your your regular pain Right, right. Yeah, like he's not he's not One of your run-of-the-mill masses you know is is spurred by the oppression and exploitation that he himself is facing, because he's not. He's clearly in the upper

echelon of the class stratosphere. Yeah, he could very easily pass. And this doesn't have to be his thing. Right. Well, he talks about that in his speech, which I'm hoping you're going to cover because, oh, fuck what it's been. Oh, damn. Yeah. Now, if I may go back to Mon Mothma for just a second.

So legends stand here, right? And I recognize that it is no longer canon and I'm fine with that since the great schism, I know who won and I'm okay with all of that. That being said, back when legends wasn't legends, when it was just the EU, and we can get into there's different kinds of canon in the EU and stuff like that, the Rebel Alliance sourcebook from West End Games, which was considered canon in the EU, has a quote from Mon Mothma and it says, quote, this great struggle is a people's struggle, a struggle between the strong and the weak, the rich and the poor, the cruel and the gentle. She's using that to describe the rebellion.

This is the rebellion not during this other time. This is right, and so for folks that don't know, West End Games was the company that made the best version of the Star Wars role playing game until Fantasy Flight came up with another model. We can skip over Saga, but West End Games is amazing. And the thing is they backfilled so much cool shit. Like they made it make sense why Wedge and Tilly's was in the Navy, but a general. They made it make sense what, you know, what all the little lozenges meant. And they explained the target doctrine.

Yeah. And explain how they came up with the original canon of how exactly a lightsaber actually worked? Yeah, so West End Games is responsible for a lot of the EU Nuts and bolts and so you had the rebel alliance sourcebook for people who wanted to play rebel commandos, right? You know the guys who helped out on on Endor So which which they retconned to be Rex. Exactly. They retconned. They did. And I also really appreciated Wedge's retcon in Rebels. I thought that was an interesting take on- He's by far my favorite character in all of Star Wars. And Ewan McGregor's uncle.

Yes. Also true. Really cool. And okay, so all this to say that in the old EU, Mon Mothma was a bad bitch. They have since sanitized her and made her into Nancy Pelosi. Right. And I think a really important distinction between the two characters of Mon Mothma and Luthen is that you know What Mon Mothma's goal is in Andor? Her goal is a restoration of the Old Republic. Yes. Luthen's is much more ambiguous. Yes. What is his goal? right and and I think he's a fascist as he can

Right. And, and I think he's as many fascist as he can say that again, kill as many fascists as he can. Right. Like, I mean, it, it, it is, I think an important, um, an important line that's drawn between his character. And I think a lot of revolutionaries because revolutionaries can often get criticized for amplifying what they're against and losing the message of what they're for, right? That it is easier to build a movement around the things that you despise rather than to build a movement with a clear vision of what you wanna build. Because it's much more difficult to get people to agree with what comes next, right? We can all agree that we hate something,

but what do we do to, what do we want to replace that? Well, in many ways that's not, he even talked about that in his speech. It's kind of like not, it's one of those, that's not my job, I'm here to erase the bad one. Right. So that people in the future, and I don't want to steal that line from you, so I'm going to let you be the one who says the line that he says, but it's like, oh my God, he gets it and it's fatalistic as fuck.

It's cool. Some could say that that's a kind of physical bravery, but moral cowardice perhaps, but regardless, it is one of those possibly necessary components to our evolution. Absolutely. And I think that the line that he says in his speech, which I think was dubbed the, what do I sacrifice speech, we'll just call it that, the what do I sacrifice speech. He says that I'm, I am destined to use the tools of my enemy. And I think that that is a, you know, if we're going to make a comparison, that he is the pre the professional revolutionary. And when we were talking about Leninism, that's the Vanguardist understanding

of the, the approach to party building, right? Like you have the professional revolutionaries to lead the masses. And I think that that is also really poignant take on the idea of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, ofist understanding of the approach to party building, right? Like you have the professional revolutionaries to lead the masses. And I think that that is also really poignant take on statism, right? That Lenin's understanding of the role of the state is a tool of class oppression. Right? So he's, he's willing to use the tools of his enemy in order to achieve his goals.

And I think that, you know, when we're, when we're looking at the bifurcation between anarchists and Marxists or anarchists and communists in general, like their point of diversion is the role of the state, right? Do we, do we abolish it right off the bat? Do we utilize the administrative apparatus of the state in order to get things done? Do we use it as a bludgeoning tool to put down counter revolutions or the enemies of whatever it is that we're trying to build? And I think that Lutheran is an all of the above, right? I mean, I don't want to have to I mean, I'm gonna kind of jump into Saul Guerrero But we're gonna talk about him a little bit more but like But like Saul Guerrero is the anarchist, right? He is the smash of the state, right? There is no

use for this tool. And Lutheran is not willing to do that. Right. And I think what is interesting, you know, coming from being a Marxist and I think that every, well, maybe not every, every Marxist that I know has, there's a delicate handling of our approach to statist reforms and status revolutionary tactics is that like, yes, we understand that this tool is not, it's not great, right? The state itself is not something that we, we are being to pro, you know, to preserve. The idea is to eventually have it wither away and to not have it at all. But we need to be able to use this, but it's not ready made. This tool isn't something that we can just take and wield, right? Because it is the tool of the enemy.

So we have to be able to craft a tool out of the parts essentially, and then use it to further our cause. And I think that that is what's so brilliant about the character of Luthen is that he is, he knows, like he's got that view got that, that view 30,000 feet. He knows exactly what it's going to take of him. And, and before he even considers what it's going to cost

everyone else, he has fully absorbed the, the personal cost to himself. And I think absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And he, psychological one, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. And he talks about how his mind is a sunless space, right? He essentially just consistently lives in darkness. That he has made it, and I think, and I could be wrong, but I think the Empire by Andor has only existed for about 16 years. I think that's the timeline.

Yeah, because it's five years before Rogue One. By and or has only existed for about 16 years. I think that's the the timeline Yeah, cuz it's five years sounds about one So I think we're looking at 13 years because at rogue one Luke and Leia are 18 Yeah, and so they're 18 then it's yeah, it's if it's five years before so this would be 13 years before Or it's since 13 years since the Empire 13 years. Okay. Yeah. So the, you know, the, like you said, the old Republic had lasted for multiple millennia and in terms of, of time, the empire is, is in its infancy. And, and the right, exactly. But, but what's, I think really important about Andor as a show in totality is that

when you watch, if you were to just have watched the original trilogy and you were to ask someone, like, what has the empire done that makes them so tyrannical, that makes them, you know, a force that people want to rise against. And, and the answer is obvious because you do have like literally the Death Star blowing up entire planets. Yeah. Right. But other than that, and obviously that's a huge thing. Like other than that, what, what examples are given in the original trilogy, the reverse of what have the Romans ever done for us you know

okay so so they they exterminated the Jedi the light of the Jedi Obi-Wan says that before the dark times before the Empire yeah so you've got that so genocide okay and again if we've talked about this before I'm not comfortable supporting genocide But if anybody ever had it coming, it's fucking Jedi Order But that being said so you've got genocide you have Ultimately and again a lot of this is backfilled from the EU. So are we talking strictly from the movies directly from the movies? Okay in that case? Like in the original trilogy

Yeah, it's destruction of Andor. It's the the Killing off of the entire I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah, the destruction of Alderaan the wiping out of the Jedi Order Yeah, the doing away with the Senate the Imperial Senate yeah anti-democratic yeah sure although if it's an Imperial Senate but still yeah well yeah see what else in the original trilogy killing him uncle Owen not Baru yeah yeah yeah yeah okay yeah murder murder civilian populations sure yeah so keep going if you can think of any more Well, I was just gonna say I mean it it really comes down to militarist Nazi vibes, right?

Yeah, and I mean Vader going out and choking people is kind of you you could be like hey, that's one guy You know and and well you guys should have done something. You're right, you know, but but whatever. Oh so many OSHA violations though. Jesus. GONK droids that you do not have. The GONK droids aren't grounded. You know, there's none of it that's good. Well, and they're not properly regulated.

They create a fucking trip hazard. The hiring of bounty hunters? You know? Well, I... You're telling me they need their scum? trip hazard like come on you've got bounty hunters you know yeah well hey you tell me they need their scum really hey as a distributist i'm gonna say they have their own tools preview preview they have a guild like true but anyway i i would and you can tell me if you disagree with this because i know i'm gonna make a pretty stark statement that I would argue that within the original trilogy, the Empire's transgressions are very targeted, even with Alderaan, right? There's a point for them to them to them destroying it. There is a point for, you know, there's a reason why they killed Owen and Beru. There

is a reason why they wiped out the Jedi. You kind of see like, well, they're fighting a rebellion. They are on the defensive, so they have to go on the offensive in order to secure their reign. And what I think is an important part of analyzing like tyrannical governments and tyrannical movements is seeing the non-targeted use of their power, right? That there is just, there has to be a layer of them being belligerent.

Right. Pushing people around because they can. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that that is very well exemplified in Andor. And I think that that is the reason. And they don't give the origin to Luthen becoming the way that he is. But being in the class position that he's in, right? You have to imagine that there was something that happened, right? You have to imagine that there's, there was some, something that happened, right? That created this, this fire in him immediately, right? Because he talks about his, his kind

of like, I've been fighting against the empire like since like day one. Right. Right. So And that has created in itself, that he's not just a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a

person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a that road, right? The less that he felt in touch with who he was before, right? And that has created it in itself a reason to hate the Empire, right? That it started with the transgressions that they might have been committing against other people, but his own alienation from himself, right, is now his reason for fighting. The loss of the person he could have been and the person he would rather be. Right.

Yeah. You've turned me into this. And because of that he is willing to sacrifice an entire group of other rebels. Right? He realizes that tactically it is more important for the fight to continue than to give up a spy. And he knows that if he gives up one of his, if his spies that he will save a group of rebel fighters, but that spy to him is worth more. And I think that that spy to him is worth more because of the alienation that he feels from himself or the person that he could have been. Like he hates himself for that math.

And exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now, yeah, no kidding. There's there's something in what you said there about his alienation and that being what kind of continues to drive him toward hating right them um it feels like in many ways he's sacrificing bits and pieces of himself along the way right he's absolutely yeah isn't Saw Gerrera in many ways the physical embodiment of that psychic loss for Luthen mm-hmm in

that Saw loses the leg loses an arm ends up being on a respirator. And because they both show a lack, a stunning lack of humanity toward the people who have come to help them. Saw Gerrera puts the pilot, I forget his name now, but Remy, I think it's Remy Malik, no it's not Remy Malik, that might be an actor's name. I think that is the actor's name, yeah. Oh, okay, yeah. But he takes the pilot and he says, Borgullet, you know, and he basically is like, yeah,

it's going to drive you fucking crazy, but we got to make sure. And it's like, bro, you're literally torturing this guy. And he just walks off. And it's like, bro, you're literally torturing this guy. And he just walks off. And it's like, holy shit, he's lost. Because we meet Saw Gerrera originally as somebody being trained by Anakin to do guerrilla tactics. And Saw's sister is the idealist. And Saw is so scarred by the loss of his sister that, you know, that starts to starts to push him. And every time we see him, he's more and more detached and alienated from from who he was. And he's losing body parts along the way.

And the fact that his his initial trainer was Anakin on a on a storytelling metaphor level. It's like there's there're mirror images of each other on opposite sides of the conflict. Yeah, using the dark side. Well, on opposite sides and not, because they both end up hating the Jedi. And Anakin starts, I mean, you're right, the guy who trained him is a guy

who has already lost a limb. And then he also ends up on a respirator, losing both legs. Like Saw is just a less shiny version in so many ways of- And his paranoia. I think that the scene where he, when Luthen comes to where Saw is,

and he's talking to him about, the original ask was that he sends his group of fighters out to intercept an Imperial intercept of someone else, right? Like they're going to set the trap. They're going to, what is it called? Fling the trap. You know what I'm saying? Spring the trap. You know what I'm saying? Spring the trap. Thank you I don't know why that word was escaping me and he saw goes into this kind of like tirade about all these different factions That are that he's like who would you want me to align with like this person and this bullshit thing that they think this person And this bullshit thing that I think like the people's front the people's front of Judea

bullshit thing that they think. Like, I'm the only one. Right. The Judean people's front, the people's front of Judea, the popular front. Right. And he's like, I'm the only one with the appropriate analysis. And I think that that was, I don't know who wrote that line or that scene, but I know that whoever did really must have had a good working understanding of leftist discourse in general. There's nothing to me that was so perfectly encapsulates the discord on the left when it comes to theoretical functions. Everyone thinks that their analysis is correct. Everyone else thinks that the other person is a class traitor or, you know, a reactionary

or it was, it was fantastic. I loved it. Um, but he is, yeah, the, you know, the, I, I love that, you know, you put that into the context of he is the physical manifestation of the mental alienation that Luthen feels. And I think that it kind of, uh, highlights their differences, right? In, in the course that they take, right? That maybe Saul views Luther's sacrifice not as great as his, because you can see Saul's when you meet him, right? Where Lutheran still gets to kind of like live a life of luxury.

He still gets to put on this facade and saws literally hiding in a cave. And so it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, when you meet him, right? Where Luthen still gets to kind of like live a life of luxury. He still gets to put on this facade and Saul's literally hiding in a cave, right? With his ragtag band of rebels. And you know, when he realizes, I think that moment, when he realizes that Luthen is selling out that group that is essentially just gonna to walk into a massacre. He has the power to stop it and he's choosing not to. And Saul looks at him and goes for the greater good, you know, and, and that,

you know, he, he, Lutheran offers him, you can say it's because of this. You can say it's because of this. And then Saul just goes, well, like it's for, for the greater good, you know? And despite their, their, and the the factionalism that Saw I think that he he he almost respects the Lutheran more because of it When he realizes what he's what he's giving up. I took the read that he really did. There was no ambiguity to that for me. I saw that as legitimately, they were going, oh, all right, you do have the stones.

Right. Okay. It's interesting because I actually viewed it as like Lutheran, you know, saws like, you know, what, what, you know, and Lutheran said, you know, for the greater good, like there's a layer there of like, whatever you have to tell yourself, we're already lost. So I think there's a little of that there too. And I think that's what saw was respecting was, okay, you're gone too. You and I are on the same, we're operating from the same spot here. You get it and I get it and we don't need to bullshit each other. We're not going to survive this. We're not meant to survive this.

We're, and what is the line that Lutheran gives? I'm setting a fire for- I burn away myself for a future I'm never going to see. Some variation on that. I'm looking it up because- And you look at how Saw dies and he literally is burned away for a future that he will never see. Right. And sadly, he helps, um, Jen Erso to escape who also later will also burn away for a future she'll never see. Go for it. Ed. Uh, I burn my decency

for someone else's future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see that. Right. that I know I'll never see. That. Right. And I think- And I'm like, fuck, dude, just stab us all in the chest with that. Like, give that man an Emmy, an Emmy. But also, I think that vibe is the Saw vibe. And when Saw realized that Luthen is just like, fucking just say it's for the greater good then, let's go.

Right, right, yeah. And he's like, oh, you get it. You and I are the same. Okay. And in many ways, is that any different than Anakin turned Vader? Like on a practical level? Yeah. What are you playing? Philosophically, like the only, the only difference is their goal in some ways. Like their approach is essentially the same. I will continue to sacrifice parts of myself for a future that I will never see. For the future of my empire. Right.

Empire? Yeah. I think the biggest difference is Anakin Skywalker nay Vader or Vader nay Skywalker. Well anyway Is incapable of doing anything in any way other than the most fabulous drama Queen manner possible? Well, and I think like he lives for the drama and and you know the operatic like he hears the Imperial March in his own goddamn head like yeah obviously he approaches it like Kronk does sneaking you know I would say this and the one maybe a defining difference to the point where they're not a difference in degree but a difference in kind is that Anakin is all about himself like he the galaxy is him he is the galaxy whereas the others their self has completely disappeared Anakin alienated the galaxy

from himself whereas the others have alienated themselves from themselves yeah that's that's actually really Buddhist Like look is fell over backward again Filoni and everybody else fell over yeah, like George did yeah Vader Vader has in that sense turned himself into the Eastern Metaphysical idea of a demon which is is a spirit that is not in Taoism, et cetera, there's no good and evil, but demons are spirits that are so bound up in their own hatred, anger, like obsession with something that they are essentially malfunctioning and being destructive and angry.

And that's him to a T. And see, this is one of the reasons that, like I, again, fully accept that Disney bought and decided none of that shit was canon, but there were some really cool shit that's been lost in the wash, one of which being a scene where, I think it's in the Shadows of the Empire novel, which to be honest, kind of a middling novel. But

it was, dude, it was all about the flash of the character of- I mean, they literally, I mean, I was going to say Dash, or they literally named him fucking Dash. Right. Like, yeah, there you go. And his mother, Mrs. Dash. Right. Yeah. There you go. And his mother misses Dash. Spicy. Spicy. Yeah.

But what do you call it? There's a scene where Vader is trying to use the dark side to make his own lungs work again. And so he focuses entirely internally, speaking of which, on his hatred of the injustice of what Obi-Wan has done to him. That's how he has to visualize it. That's how he has to come to it. And that draws enough hatred into him that he can use the dark side to make his lungs work and they start to work.

And then he's overjoyed that his lungs are working in the fucking darkside leaves immediately And he's left coughing and gasping and he has to like hit the button to start the respirator again Shit, and it's so it's so good cuz it's like it is an all-consuming problem Like yeah, you know use of the dark side if you get your goal You're happy and then the dark side leaves you and then you're left gasping on the ground Wow, I loved that that's a metaphor for addiction too. Oh absolutely. Yeah, holy cow So anyway, so we've kind of gotten a little far afield I would like us to get back to Mon Mothma actually because I don't think we we fully

Made clear so you said that she is I don't think we fully made clear. So you said that she and Luther are the antithesis of each other. Could you shave that a little bit finer for me? Because I don't see them... To me, an antithesis would be the difference between salt and sugar. And maybe I'm not thinking of it in the right way. Um, for what you're talking about. So the reason why I say into this is, is because first we'll start at the point

of, of continuity between them, right? They're both against the empire, right? But that's pretty much immediately where they diverge from one another. That Lutheran is willing to take on a tremendous amount of sacrifice to himself, as well as sacrifice others, right? And use any tool at his disposal to meet his goal, which is again ambiguous, right? We're not sure what the goal is. We just know that that is anti-empire.

Where Mon Mothma is treading very lightly, right? She's not willing to even sacrifice her cousin, Vel, right? That is her cousin who is an out rebel in the sense that like, she's, she's not playing a role other than when she comes to Coruscant and has to hang out with her cousin, right? She's, she's out in the field doing the dirty work, right? She's, she's actually like putting, putting her money where her mouth is. She walks the walk and talks the talk. Whereas is Mon is is not in that position yet as a vandor. Right. Right. She's her. Her goal, again, is is to restore the republic.

Right. And she's still using the tools of of the Senate in order to enact that vision. But she's dabbling. And by dabbling, I mean, she's like really just providing funds, right? She's, she's funneling money to, to Lutheran who's then, you know, she didn't even know what the money's going to be used for. She thought it was just kind of be like, you know, maybe, maybe propaganda campaigns or, or, or building support in other systems. You know, get going there, talking to people, getting, getting the rallying

support so then they can create a block maybe within the Senate or, or some systems, you know, going there, talking to people, getting, getting the rallying support. So then they can create a block maybe within the Senate or some legal means to, to challenge the empire's power. Right. She's doing a pack. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. She's, she's got some coalitions that she wants to build, you know, there she's going to have a protest, but she's going to get a permit first. Yeah. Yeah. to build, you know, there she's going to have a protest, but she's going to get a permit first. Um, yeah. Yeah. And, and I think why that that's kind of the point of, of why I think that they are, they are operating on at least opposite spectrums, maybe that's a

better, a better term than antithesis is that they are operating on opposite spectrums when it comes to their goals, the tactics that they want to use, and their overall willingness to destroy themselves in the process. Mon is trying to navigate, I know, like I thought it was a point of, of maybe her, her evolving in her, her revolutionary perspective when she, and this obviously I think is, is kind of a personal beef that she has with her husband and his gambling debts, but she was, she was willing to put her, her husband on the line in one of the later episodes, right? When she starts, okay, they're starting to notice that there's money missing from my

account. How do I play this off? They're starting to look into senators and I'm definitely one that talks a lot and I speak loudly. People probably know that I have some issues with the empire. They're probably already looking at my bank account and they're gonna be looking even deeper my husband has some gambling problems I can watch it that way converse yeah we can we can have this conversation in front of someone who I

definitely know is spying on me so that they can report back to their superiors that this is potentially why that money is missing and that it can't be accounted for is because my husband is a philanderer and he's also gambling and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? She was willing to put him into the crosshairs a bit, but not necessarily herself. Right. Right?

She's still keeping that layer of separation. Right? And even though her husband might be someone who at some point, despite obviously that their marriage was arranged, having to be chendrillon expectations of the time custom, that she might throw him down the river. Right. But she's, she still had that, that level of separation from her. And even with Vell, she keeps that at arm's length, right? When she comes to visit, she's, oh, you know, you've got to see your niece, let's have to have some dinner. But like, if you're doing anything that's illegal, like you can't you just be I

think she says to her, like, can't you just go back to chandola and be like, essentially a normal person? Right? Why can't you be a normal? Yeah. aristocrat? Why can't you? Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why can't you be, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that was the point that I was making that they're, they're, they're buying their, um, you know, the, the sacrifices that they're willing to make, they're, they're operating on, on very different playing fields. Um, and I also, I really do think that it's important that their, their goals aren't similar and

the alliances that you have to make, albeit sometimes unsavory ones in order to maybe get what you want. But the thing is, is that she realizes during or after Al Donnie that like Lutheran is far outside of her control, right? That whatever alliances that she's building, that Luthen, despite her thinking that he's part of it is, is operating on a very different wavelength and has a very different agenda. And I think that she realizes that. And it's just kind of like, what have I gotten myself into? Sure. I like, is it too late for me to pull back and re calibrate? Yeah, there's, there's almost like a parallel to, oh God, Sure, I like is it too late for me to pull back and

Recalibrate yeah, there's there's almost like a parallel to oh god. I've made a deal with a fae being Hi, I made this agreement and I really did not understand what the fuck it was I was promising I was gonna give I like you know Yeah, okay rumble still skin three times and then Luthen disappears oh wow maybe he is Rumpelstiltskin because he goes lower and lower into the city mmm there's gold in the straw there's a there's a metaphor there yeah yeah all right okay so the next character you wanted to tell you so the next one We're gonna we're gonna move on to the other side of the spectrum and and Cyril Karn. Oh This was this was where Damien was like oh, I want to talk about mom off by my own head

I was like Cyril Cyril. Oh, you gotta tell me the fuck about this Marxist perspective I want to hear about Cyril. I mean that guy. One, Ed did you know when you watched this I don't know how many times you've watched Andor, but when you watched this like who was the first person you thought of when you saw Cyril? Like I hope that it's the same person that I thought of like in a real person that you made the comparison to immediately.

I'm trying to remember. But he's he's he's an archetype. I've I've known a few people. I've known a few people like like Cyril. There wasn't like a particular historical figure I thought of. Oh, I would contemporary, contemporary figure. Temporary. Well, Mike Pence Was up there

So so very rigidly put together and so very concerned with you know The the dotting the I's and crossing the T's and that's what morality Isn't about like compassion or kindness morality is about the rules about compassion or kindness, morality is about the rules. You know, so that was, that's, I'd say that's kind of where I went. But what did you think of? That's really good. I think that your take dove into like the character on a personality level. My take was more the physical and the annoyance, and I went with Ben Shapiro immediately Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and now that I've seen that when I go back and watch it I'm not gonna be

And he's yeah, he's such a little like he's he's the embodiment of the like the fascist sycophant who's so like he's he's the embodiment of of the like the fascist sycophant who's so desperate like he he's like the kid who didn't quite make it into Hitler youth But like really really wanted to be right he made their mall cop corps in the Hitler Mall Cop Corps. Exactly. He had to get the he came to school with the uniform on and the other kids were like, hey, you're not in this. And he's like, no, but I am like, I swear, like, look, I look at my shorts.

They're well above my knees. Yeah. Yeah. And his I mean, we have right off the bat, his, his mommy issues, right? Yeah. Um, his, his, his mom has like unrealistic expectations of her child and that leaves him feeling, uh, like he's constantly trying to prove himself, but he hates her. So he, he doesn't necessarily want to prove himself to her. He wants to prove himself in spite of her. So he doesn't necessarily want to prove himself to her. He wants to prove himself in spite of her. Right. And he,

you know, it starts out cause we talked about, uh, the, uh, what's the name more Lana one that's he's, he's the corporate cop on more Lana one, right? He's a, he's like a, an investigator detective. He's not a beat cop, right? He's, he's still, he's still got the office job, right? On more Lana one. And he, so he's, he's kind of like this, this corporate enforcer, um, that has like the biggest heart on for the empire. And he absolutely, and this is what I think is so interesting about a lot of these characters. It's, we

talked about hegemony in the, in the last episode or the first episode. And what's interesting about the original trilogy is that there's not a tremendous amount of work that's done to show kind of the impact that the Empire has again on everyday life and everyday culture within the Republic or within the Empire, previous Republic, right? You don't, you don't see people kind of like engaging in the, in the political sphere, right? And which is obviously what they did with the, the prequels and a lot of people were like, why are you bringing all the trade routes?

Like, yeah, exactly. But it's so important. And, and I think that, you know, uh are you bringing all the trade routes? Was it C-SPAN in space? Yeah, exactly. But it's so important. And I think that, you know, Diego Luna said in an interview that this is something that Star Wars fans were really craving. And I think that it's very true because there wasn't that clear role that the Empire was playing on how people felt about the Empire.

You know, and you have with Cyril this really good example of someone who, you know, was old enough to have lived during pre-empire days and saw the empire as the like, good, fuck them hippies kind of thing. Yeah. Right. Likere is the character of the ISP, which is the Imperial Security Bureau. Right. And when she's in a meeting with the other ISP agents, they ask one of the top guy, I forget his name. He asks, what is it that we do at the ISP? And someone answers the question like, well, we, you know, we protect the empire, we enforce the, the imperial

rule, et cetera. And he goes, we provide healthcare. We root out sickness. Right. And I thought that it was a brilliant line. And it was like one of the first things that I wrote down when I rewatched the series and Cyril is that He embodies that right? He sees everything that is counter structure counter order Against complete and total

against complete and total hegemony as a sickness. He needs everything to be very black and white. And I think that from a Marxist perspective, and this is just a leftist perspective in general, that is pretty much one of the core tenets of fascism, is that society always breaks down into black and white, right? That there are the good people and there are the bad people. And the good people subscribe to these things and the bad people do these things. And the inner group needs to make sure that they suppress the outer group. Right. And he is, I would say, enthralled, fascinated.

Obsessed. Obsessed, yeah. With not only the Empire, but then he also then becomes obsessed with Deidre, who I think he sees as the personification of the Empire, because she is as rigid and un un un bending as he is right that she sees the world in a black and white as well right but she I don't think has the same um I think that she's like more calculating, right?

She doesn't have the same, uh, adoration for the empire as he does. She is the law and order person, right? That that's, that's her fascination that, that if it was the empire, if it was the Republic, it's about the law and order to her. But for Cyril, the cruelty is the point Yeah, and I do think that there is a part of you know, Deidre's character that that shows that when she like tortures Bix in that episode and tortures the other guy with like the the headphones of Essentially like playing the cries of screaming children as they were being murdered to torture people.

What the fuck, man? Like, wow. Yeah. Again, really showing the like the depth of depravity that the empire was. Like when I asked what in the original trilogy the empire did to make them so bad, right? We have some answers, but like and or like, holy shit. Right. Yeah. This really laid out the template of being like, oh, fuck.

Yeah. And the and the matter of fact, this the the the banality of evil of it all. They like, you know, we we show up we we you know, there's there's a level and it's not with Deidre but like the the Corpse Set guys are literal punch clock villains. You know, this is what we do. We beat up we beat up homeless people and we you know, harass anybody we want to because, you know, we can do that and, you know, by doing that, we, you know, somehow are preventing criminal activity.

But like at the end of the day, no, screw that. Let's not worry about it. Don't worry. Just whatever. It's an incident. Let's go home. Right. You know. Um,

yeah. And what I find interesting about Cyril and Deidre is there's, to me, there was a vibe of Cyril looking at Deidre and there's, there's also, cause I love your analysis of, of, you know, she embodies the empire. I think there's also a level of him, uh, being obsessed with her because she is who he wants to be so badly. He wants so badly to be in that position of power and authority. And he's like, you can see him quivering with, with, with just just the the like, like sick quasi religious kind of awe.

That's very sexual. It's going to say, yes, it's a very Freudian thing. Like, yeah. Yeah. Doesn't see her as his father. He sees her as his mommy. Right. In the same way that Ray Mysterio Jr.'s son, Dom, sees Ray Ripley as mommy. Okay.

I know who Rey Mysterio Jr. is, but that one way or another. So Rey Mysterio Jr.'s son Dominic is now one of the best wrestlers that's out there, and a lot of it has to do with his relationship to, on screen, his relationship to a character named Rhea Ripley. Rhea Ripley is this badass chick who she's great wrestler, but also her personality is just like a very masculinized, dominant. There's like this almost cultish quality, but like she exudes like a dominant, feminine sexuality, mothering-ness to Dominic, and Dominic plays it perfectly. He's under her thrall, he very much looks up to her, and she gives him the affection, and it's kind of like one of those, like she holds him close to her breast a little too often,

you know, that kind of thing, And so, you know, he calls her mommy and she calls him her little Dom Dom. Oh, it's so fucking good. And she's like that when she's wearing the black lipstick because I had to look at it. Yeah, you looked up Ray Ripley. Yeah, dude, so many people want her to crush their skulls with her thighs. Oh, God. But oh, she's something. And then like she, in the last two years, she has led Dom to just disavow his father and break into his father's house

to the point where Rey finally fought his own son, I think at WrestleMania, beat him from pillar to post. And Rey has been inducted into the Hall of Fame. And that's like a big important thing in the WWE, right? Yeah, and it's Rey Mysterio jr. Right? I mean this guy was like the smallest wrestler and he During even that they kept the storyline going where Dominic was there But he was super disrespectful to his dad walking in and all this kind of shit

So they just kept kayfabe the whole time and yeah, so I I got those vibes big time like yeah, like Cyril wishes he was dumb dumb When when she when she treats him with such utter disdain right after questioning him, right? Yes, like that just that just makes him even more like I will lick your boots. I love you. Yeah Oh and and one thing that I absolutely loved about their interactions was that they did not That just makes him even more like, I will lick your boots. My God, I love you. Right. Yeah. Oh, and one thing that I absolutely loved about their interactions was that they did not,

despite that last scene between them, where he saves her, he clearly wants to go in, he wants, and you can see a revolt, and she says, I suppose I should thank you. Right. Like she can't even bring herself to say it to her. And it's, it's this, you know, like he, he, I, I like viewing her as the personification of the empire to him because he wants to protect her. Right. Um, he wants to impress her. He also wants to fuck her. Right. And then on, on top of that, um, you know, this,

this separation between the fascist understanding of the state and, and the professional revolutionary understanding of the state, right? Like he has a fetishization of the state and he fetishizes, he fetishizes Deidre. Whereas Luther on the other hand, it has, as this very, very different relationship to these tools that he's, he's willing to wield. Right. And again, the cruelty is the point first for zero. Like he, he loves the, the brutality, uh, the wanton cruelty, the barbarity of the state.

And, and he sees it as, as that kind of like, this is the clear line of who has power and who doesn't, is that the cruelty, the barbarity of the state and, and he sees it as, as that kind of like, this is the clear line of who has power and who doesn't. Yeah. We have a right to this power. Yeah. And, and he, he, I always, I found his scenes with the, uh, with the corpse sec strike team guys as being so incredibly pitch perfect because it's so clear that like he obviously has no idea what to do in a fight like it's right but but being but being around these thuggish brutal professional professional the Scotsman

was professional was Was, yeah. Yeah. And, and, but, but being around these guys, like the, the, the borrowed strength and power and, and masculinity that that, that that gave him clearly, like he, he, the actor playing the plan role did such a great job balancing the oh yeah, I know I am I am badass I am with these guys this is who we are this is what we do balanced with the oh shit we're actually really going to go in like right we could get shot you know and and the tension between that. I found it really, and now that you've talked about Deidre personifying the empire for him,

it just reinforces for me my read of him Cyril as You know a a metaphorical Trumper he is he is he is the guy who has a mad-on for the power and the and the strength and the cruelty of the state because of his own Deep seated fucked up insecurity you know and his his shitty he like he knows deep down a part of him knows he's weak and he and he knows that the reason he is because of his mother and that's the reason he hates his mother so much because he because he despises weakness Right. He despises his own weakness. Yeah, and and I mean, yeah like there are so many layers

To to like that whole onion that I hated him. I hated him with a burning fury But he was so compelling every time he was on screen You know when he was with those corset guys on the raid right when he's with professional violence doers He gave off the same vibe that Gio Navarra Giovanni Rimsby gave off so masterfully in the postman When he's finally accepted by the eight Mm-hmm. You know he's like I made it. I mean you know and he's just He's a pick-me-boy. You know the whole time yeah, and he's like why would made it. And he's just, he's a pick me boy the whole time.

And he's like, why would you want to leave? Why would you want to leave? And they give him the, he doesn't get to eat. Remember he came in last on the run, no food for you. And they slaughtered Bill the donkey and And there and Kevin Costner gives it to him and he's like, it's not so bad. It's not so bad He's looking around for a point to point out that Bill never made it back from the mines of Moria And that's what happened to his fate. Exactly. He got picked up by the postman. Yep

Yeah, and he was saved because the postman delivers. Right. Hate you both so much right now. Bill learned to fight with a sword. I mean, you know, but okay. So there's, there's Cyril who, by the way, when I watched it again, big EU nerd, right? And again, I keep giving this disclaimer. I know it's not the EU anymore. But he gave off Kirtan Lore vibes to a massive extent. So if you've ever read the Michael Stackpole X-Wing series, the first four books before you get to the Aaron Alston

pickup of four books of Wraith Squadron. So the Rogue Squadron series. The second, what's the, okay, so there's big bad evil guy, then whoever they're, the one under them that you meet first. Well, like- Lieutenant Governor? Yeah, kind of. Yeah, it depends on what formula you're following.

There's the BBEG, which would be like, you know Palpatine is actually the BBG. Yeah, but the big scary guy. Yeah, the big scary guy He throws out to get everybody's attention that trope is the dragon and that would be Vader Okay so the the the dragon in the X-Wing series was Kyrten Lohr. And Kyrten Lohr is this super tall guy who looks exactly like Tarkin, just bigger, like taller. To the point where if you take Kyrten Lohr's name, and it's an anagram for Tarkin.

But Kyrten Lohr, he's got a eidetic memory, and he's very, very smart, and he's tracking down Rogue Squadron as best he can. And he answers to specific, and he's a functionary within the Imperial remnant because at this point, at the point of X-Wing, the book series, Coruscant still belongs to the Empire, but Palpatine has died and all this. That four book series is the taking of Coruscant, actually, by the rebels and setting up the New Republic.

That said, he's hunting down Rogue Squadron. He's the nemesis of Wedge. And then you find that he's reporting to the head of the ISB is saying isard Hmm whose father? Oh Fuck I forgot his first name isard Armand isard she had turned him in for disloyalty and

Incompetence to rise up in the ranks. That's why her nickname was ice heart. It's hard to rise up in the ranks. That's why her nickname was Iceheart. Iceheart. Oh. And so Kyrten Lohr is her little bitch. He is her dom dom. Oh, okay. And so that relationship, I was like, see, this is why I'm totally fine with Star Wars

being taken by Disney, because they canceled all the stuff and they're taking the best parts and putting them in where they see fit and they're not missing. And so that relationship, I was like, oh, I know this relationship. This is really cool. I've seen this before. I know who these people are. So I loved that about their, you know, and then of course they changed some things around, but it was at its core then.

So yeah. All right. So other characters? Yeah. The next one that I want to talk about is Charisnemek who God yes And that's the guy with the red hat Which is not an accident. It was a red hat. Yeah, it was a fucking red hat I mean it was yeah, totally was totally not an accident at all

So he pops up during the aldani heist three-part Episode series, you know, um, and he is I mean, it's a he's a really easy character to go from a marxist perspective Because he literally writes a fucking manifesto Do you remember what it was called? I don't. The Trail of Political Consciousness. Right. And, and like his, you know, right, right from the beginning, he's, he's an idealist, right? Like he's, he has a very clear vision of what they're fighting for,

not just what they're fighting against. Right. And he kind of, you know, we talked about Maoism and like the mass line, and he is that revolutionary figure that's helping raise the consciousness of the other revolutionary figures around him, right? To bring them to the level where they understand the fight that they're engaging in is bigger than

themselves, right? And is bigger than their little sphere of whatever it is that brought them here. That's sure, that's important. That's why you got here. We all have different reasons, but now let's all align in the struggle that we are actually engaging in with a goal in mind of what we are aiming for. Right. And, and he has this really, you know, in his, his manifesto has this kind of like beautiful breakdown of why, um, tyranny is unnatural, right? It goes against the natural order.

Um, and that is the reason why it is impossible for tyranny to hold on. And it is, I think that part of the, the manifesto and in the way that Andor works in the timeline, Andor doesn't actually listen to the manifesto until after he gets out of prison. Right. Right. until after he gets out of prison. Right. Right. But you see, or you kind of are able to go back and then see like how, how while Andor is in prison, right, he, he is essentially echoing the same, the same sentiment, right? The empire itself is not all powerful, right? It's not, it's not,

itself is not all powerful right it's not it's not authority not brittle I think exactly I have I have the quote here in front of me yeah tyranny requires constant effort yeah it breaks it leaks authority is brittle oppression is the mask of fear remember that and know this the day will come when all these skirmishes and battles these moments of defiance will have flooded the banks of the Empire's Authority and then there will be one too many one single thing will break the siege Remember this try yeah Yeah, and that that is like the the perfect example of the protracted people's war right you have all these little skirmishes that are dividing The forces of the Empire they are depleting their resources because of that, they have to continuously crack down, which then

results in more skirmishes and more people rising up against them. That it is a constant flow of history in one similar direction, which is very much the way that most Marxists view history, right? That there is a trajectory Marxists view history, right? That there is a trajectory that we are on, right? That there are things that we can envision that imperialism is not as strong as everyone thinks, right? That it has a tremendous amount of weaknesses because of the authority that it has to constantly

put power and resources into, the pressure that it has to constantly put power and resources into, the pressure that it has to constantly apply onto everyone within its purview. And when Andor is in prison, he tells Keno, right, when that entire bridge of prisoners is killed, he goes, what does that look like to you? And Keno says, power. And Andoror says that's not power, that's fear. Right. That they are afraid because everyone is about to find out they're never getting out of prison.

Yes. And what's that going to do? Right. It's going to give a whole bunch of people nothing to lose. Exactly. If they have nothing to lose, then they're going to rise up. It is literally a self-defeating system. Absolutely.

Like you said. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that is like in capitalist society and capitalist hegemony, and I think I might've said this in the last episode, like it's easier to imagine the end of the world than it is to imagine the end of capitalism. Yeah. And for people living within any system of oppression or tyranny, they can't imagine

what the world is like outside of that, right? You know, it's like to the people who lived in, I can't remember the exact quote, but like to the people who lived in the time of rule of monarchs, that power seemed indefinite. Right. Right. There were, there was an entire population for hundreds of years, thousands of years that saw the divine right of Kings as permanent, right. And w and we can look back now and see like how clearly wrong they were, but at the same time, people are so willing to then see the kind of never-ending

power of class oppression as also permanent. And what I like about Andor Law and the character of Karius is that he's pointing out that within the 13 years of the Empire has existed at this point, the things that we didn't get to see in the original trilogy is how clearly powerful the empire was at pushing their propaganda about their power and their control. Right? I mean, within a very short amount of time, you have the existence of like the Jedi being completely eradicated in his like in history books So you would imagine that they're not being taught about in schools that they're that their entire existence has been

Systematically wiped out from super mission, right? Just common knowledge gone right culture gone like all of that is is gone. It like very quickly You know got people essentially essentially to not only recognize willingly this new imperial power, right? The Galactic Republic is being reorganized into the first Galactic Empire to a round of applause, right? Then they become, you know, a permanent fixture, an all powerful fixture in the mind of so many people. And when we saw Ferex, Ferex was the like, they're a power, they're doing this thing, but they kind of leave us alone. And I'm sure that there are a lot of systems that are like that, right? That as long

as they do what they're told and don't cause too much trouble, trouble than the best spin, right? Lando says it like that. We pretty much just get a stay out of the empire's view. Like, you don't really care. We might be doing some legal activities, but it's fine. Like we do what needs to be done and they'll leave us alone. And what I think is so beautiful about his Nemecs character is that like he points out the obvious like

This isn't this isn't all all powerful. This isn't permanent This is a very new structure and it's already very very weak Right a lot of ways the sprung up in my lifetime, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I So there's one thing that Nemec said what what I loved about Nemec was not only is he like obviously the voice of revolution, right? And very clearly they're just like, what can we put here? Here's Mao. So tickled my history heart. But also he embodies the hope that you don't see in Luthen or Saw, that you honestly don't see in Andor either. He's the reason Andor ends up with hope. And in fact, there's a line between the two of them where Andor says something like, I

don't know what I'm for, I only know what I'm fighting against. Or I think he's got it reversed. I know what I'm fighting against, the rest has to wait or something like that. And Nemec says, well, you're my ideal reader. I'm like, oh, and what I love about that and if I'm getting ahead of myself, do you wanna talk about his demise or? No, no, no, please, please.

What I absolutely love about that was that Nemec, I think is the only casualty on that raid Mm-hmm. Okay, so the idealist dies and if you remember what crushes him to death is The wealth of the Empire. Yes credits. Yeah And he yeah, he doesn't die in battle, right? He dies on takeoff. Yes in like the least spectacular way He dies on takeoff in the least spectacular way. Yes, but he's crushed by the banality of the capitalism that the empire relies on. I was just sitting there going, you were literally being crushed under the weight of the empire's excess.

Right. Okay, well done. Again, back to your Bertolt Brecht. This would be the point where he turns to the audience and just like, well, you're probably wondering how he got here. We made it clear. Record scratch. Yep.

That's me. Yeah. And, and, and I'm clearly the audience that Brecht was saying, okay, we're going to need to say this to some people because, because you say that and I'm sitting here like, okay, we're going to need to say this to some people because, because you say that and I'm sitting here like, wait, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I really enjoyed the interaction between, between him and, and, and, or, about that. Like, okay,

everyone starts their journey at the same point. Right. We all, we all have a thing that we hate, a thing that happened to us. You know, he points out to the other people that are there, like his brother was killed by the empire, but you know, like he, all these things, we're all here now. Right. We all know what brought us here. All right. But like, what is the thing? And, and the other people are, are, like, lovingly dismissive about his approach, right? Like, they see him as an optimist and idealist, and they're just kind of like, he'll talk your ear off. Like, you give him the opportunity, he's going to go in.

But like, that is... It reminds me of my friends who are like, all right What do you guys think two steps? Nah three. Okay Okay, and then they say a thing and then they count the steps that it takes me to take it to Nazis Or white supremacy That's like, all right, we're gonna talk about You know or whatever That's like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like class struggle. When we talk through like chat and it just like, no matter what the conversation is, it always ends up devolving into something that leads with hashtag class struggle, but I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

You're saying, no, no, to make it, to make a comparison to captain planet, there's a reason why one of the powers is heart. Right. Yeah. And, and, and Nemec is the heart. Oh, yes. Right. Like he, he is the reason why they have a vision going forward, even if they don't see it yet.

Right. Right. And, and there's like a Che Guevara quote and I'm going to butcher it, but it's like for the, for the sake of sounding absurd, like every revolutionary is guided by a great deal of love. There is no revolutionary that can exist without this feature or trait or something along the lines of that. Um, when I think that it's so important to see that stark contrast between NEMEC and Karn in particular, right? Is that like this like ice cold kind of, uh, fascist pragmatist and this, this idealist that's like the heart of, of the group that is, that is trying to make them see their own humanity in this inhuman struggle, right? Against this power.

I think there's also a textural thing there too, because Karne is so brittle. So, you blow on him and he crumbles. Right? Yeah, the only thing that keeps him upright is the anger that he has to muster on himself. Like he is a powerless Anakin, you know? And Nemec is so soft that nothing will shake him from that goodness. He is so like, he is so soft that he's so secure in who he is. And they're exact opposites of each other. He's a child made of fire and other. He's a child made of fire and the other one's a child made of ash.

His fire is extinguished and the ash is allowed to stand. But at, and honestly, in many ways, Karn at no cost because he's already lost. Whereas Nemek actually dies. And I think in many ways, his heart transfers not to Andor. Because Andor doesn't, I don't think he ever fully finds heart. He finds, he kind of finds hope. Kind of.

It's like he finds peace. He finds determination. Yeah that too, but like at the end of rogue one, he finds peace Peace and purpose if you will But the heart goes to Leia Yeah, like Leia becomes the heart Yeah of the rebellion like from from from the very end of rogue One, what do we have? Hope. Right.

You know? So. Yeah. And I really appreciated the fact they killed Nemeck off and had his manifesto read after his death because it's very much that like you can kill a revolution, but you can't kill the revolution. Or you can kill a revolutionary without killing, you know, and you can't kill the revolution, but you're that. But it's like and I think that that's a good segue into

the primary character which is of course and Marva. I was going to say what's the droids name? Oh fuck, it's not K2SO. No, it's like B-O, Bino? Something like that. Obi. Obi or something like Obi. No? It's got a B in it. It's definitely got a B in it.

Yeah. I'll find that while you're talking. Honestly, one of my favorite droids in Star Wars, such like a human in ways that other ones were not quite human. But okay, so Andor, also I think a really easy character to break down from Marx's perspective. I think I said this in the previous episode when we were talking first, Marx's breakdown of class was that Andor starts off as the lump the criminality underground, right?

Like everything that he engages in is pretty much illegal right off the bat. Like you see that, um, he's, he's stealing things from the empire. He's selling them on the black market. Um, he really doesn't know, you know, to, to use a common phrase, like where his next meal is coming from, like, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's selling them on the black market. Um, he really doesn't know, you know, to, to use a common phrase, like where his next meal is coming from. Right. Like he doesn't, he doesn't seem like he's got a plan past tomorrow. And if, if that, right, like every day he's waking up and doing the things that he's got to do to survive. And it's interesting. And I don't know

if they're going to touch on this in the second season, but like the storyline of him looking for his sisters, I don't know how you guys interpreted that. I mean, it felt to me like one of the weakest part of their writing. Other than the fact that they just kind of like, Marvel was like, Hey, stop, stop looking for her. Right? Like you're not going to find her. I didn't really see a point that I felt like that entire, the entire series could have done without that storyline. But I think that what they were trying to do in the beginning was that like give him some kind of like, he's got, I mean like he had a- There's some part in connection there. Yeah, yeah, maybe.

Cause I was trying to like, are they trying to make it so that you feel for his personal struggle against the Empire? But that could have been achieved without that. You know? I think honestly what it is, is you give him the emotionality to lose, to despair and anger with everything that happens after. He still has Marva as a connection, but he can leave her behind and does frequently and loses himself along the way.

Whereas him searching for a scissor, now I agree with you, it's lazy writing. I do think there's a layer there though, he is an indigenous person who was taken away and he's looking for other indigenous people who've been sold into sex slavery. So there's that. In a corporate setting even more with police officers making use of it, et cetera. But I think that it gave us something to show that he wasn't always this hard

and that there was one last thing he was looking for and that got squeezed away from him too. That's what I took it as. That makes sense. Yeah. It's the Star Wars equivalent of killing the mom in Disney. Right. Like you need something to give him something to be anxious about right away. Right. Yeah. But what's interesting about it on top of that, because I do, I do really like that analysis of it, is that it's a thing that puts him in danger. Absolutely. Right. It's, it's the, the, the fact that he mentions the planet where he's from, that no one knew that he was from. Yeah.

When looking for his sister that puts a target on his back. Right. You know, obviously other than him killing them, the two mall cops. obviously other than him killing them, the two mall cops. But the reason they have him in their sights is because of his search for his sister that night. Right, exactly. If he hadn't done that, then that would not be an issue. Yeah. And I think that when we look at Star Wars, It, you know, Luke's kind of got the archetype heroes journey, right? Yeah. It's very easy. And I think that.

And or stories is against the monomethical heroes journey, right? Like there, there is a tremendous amount of, um, you know, gray area with his own morality, his own ethical code when it comes to surviving. Because when we first meet the character again, that's his primary goal, right? Is just survival. Right? He's looking out for himself. He doesn't have any great vision of the future. He doesn't have any necessarily beef with the Empire other than like they've done him

dirty, right? Like, and he says that like he's got that, um, like, yeah, the Empire fucking sucks and they've done some terrible things, but like this isn't my fight. He's very much Janurso in the beginning where she's talking to saw in Rogue One where she says, you know, it's easy to ignore the flags that are flying when you never look up. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and I think that that like perspective really continues on even after Al Donnie, like he meets this group again, he gets put into the situation because he's trying to

survive, right? Lutheran, Lutheran identifies in him something that he doesn't see in himself. He sees that there's this potential in the lumpen proletariat for revolutionary to be molded out of that, right? Like you already exist on the outskirts of society. You already, you are already subjected to the oppression from the empire. You just haven't identified it. You haven't named it what it is, but you, you have been dealing with this

since you were like, he, and Luther knows his whole backstory. He knows where he came from. He knows about the strip mining project that was happening on his planet. He knows the, the kind of the devastation that, that has led to and or being where he is. And, and, and Andrew is just kind of like, listen, man, like I'll do this for the money. He's got that Han Solo feeling to him. Revolution princess. I'm in it for the money. Exactly. Like, and, and when at the end of that, what does he do? You know,

after at the end of Aldani, he gets his credits. He goes to Marva, tries to convince her to come with him. And then he goes and hangs out at the beach. On the beach. Yeah. Which I mean, like he's, he's still not sold on the revolution. Right. And it's not until he gets imprisoned.

And, and I think that the prison Narcina five three part episode is, is something ever. I honestly like compare it to a lot of other very great shows that have happened in my lifetime. But like the, the concentration camp type feel the like work will set you free type situation literally the Yeah, really like that's that's I mean not only will it set you free, but it will also you know Apparently give you food flavor you know like the reward and not only the reward but the punishment because the team that comes in last gets electrocuted or shocked electrocuted results in reward, but the punishment, because the team that comes in last gets electrocuted or shocked, electrocuted results in death.

But like, they like there's so pits them against each other. Right. And like each team like has that kind of solidarity within them. And they all feel it at the end of the day. They all go back to the same place and they all realize that like, fuck me. And like, I'm sorry that you your team lost this time, but like, we also don't want to be the team that loses. So like, exactly. And there is, um, especially within the context of the things that they're

building, a really good example of, of, uh, Fordism, Taylorism, you know, like the, what's like the assembly line stuff. Yeah. Yeah, the theory of productivity when it comes to work, right? Like they all have one very specific task that they do and over and over again. And it's interesting because Graham, she actually has like a really good critical analysis of Fordism and Taylorism and the kind of monotony behind factory work and the assembly line as like, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, critical analysis of Fordism and Taylorism and the kind of monotony behind factory work and the assembly line as like the pinnacle of alienation right because alienation and labor like being being alienated from the things that you produce they're so alienated from the thing that they produce and

they don't even realize the thing that they're making is going into the death star at that you know the post credit scene. I thought it was like the cherry on top of the cake. Cause it's like, they're so concerned with just making sure that they don't get shocked or they get the, you know, the flavor in their food that they, they finished their task for the day. They don't even realize that they're making this gigantic weapon of mass destruction.

Right. And it, it isn't until, you know, and, or realizes that, that they're, they're not getting out. Right. Um, and that would they get a new prisoner in at some point? And, and they realized that no one on the outside knows about this, like commuted sentence situation. No one knows that people are just getting rubber stamped and they're just getting, they're just getting, they're just getting, they're just getting point and, and they realized that no one on the outside knows about this, like, commuted sentence situation.

No one knows that people are just getting rubber stamped into six year, six year long, you know, sentences in prison. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's kind of that, that, okay, this, there's something more to this than just like, yeah, the empire sucks, right? Like they are annihilating people's futures, right? They are grinding people into dust for nothing. Because even though I did commit all these crimes, the thing that they busted me for

was literally just walking on the beach. Yeah. Yes. You know? Yeah. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Absolutely. And I, and obviously, you know, historical context of when things are produced, the show came out, um, you know, right at the tail end of some of the biggest, uh,

you know, anti-police brutality uprisings across the United States. Um, you know, kind of tailing a lot of people who were murdered by the police for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Right. You know, and for no other reason. And even a lot of those times, those people who were killed might have had, as the media loves to highlight, a criminal past or done something that was illegal, but it was not the thing that led to them getting killed.

It was not the thing that led to the end of their life. Right. Yeah. And, and that is, you know, and, or might've done these things that were, it was breaking the law, et cetera, but it wasn't that, that got him in jail. Right. It was him being at the wrong place at the wrong time. And it's that moment, despite him living on the outskirts

of society and living out in the outskirts of the law, of the legal system, the order of society, it is that moment that snaps it into place for him. Well, he's forced to, too. Like, it's not like a realization for him It is thrust into his head like yeah You know him living on that beach and and living that life was him basically saying to the Empire All right We're square now, right? Yeah, I'm gonna go and be lumped and proletariat for the rest of my life

I'm gonna stay out of your way And we'll call it good yeah, and then'll call it good." And then that he can't do that because, you know, he was literally at the wrong part of the beach at the wrong time, which has its own racial callbacks to all kinds of shit that we saw in American history in the 1950s and 40s.

So, yeah, it's interesting to me too because the metaphor for what he was doing, he was such a cog in a machine that didn't need him to exist, just needed his labor, so extracting his labor, to create a cog in a machine that literally destroyed him. He engineered, quite literally engineered his own death. And just that, the full circle of that and the metaphor of that, it's the, you know, we're going to sell you the rope to hang yourself, but in literally the reverse. Right. We're going to force you at gunpoint to produce the rope that we're going to use to hang you.

Yeah. And it's just, I mean, again, it's concentration camp, forced labor. In many ways, we saw that throughout history where people were being forced to make the bullet casings that would then be used to round up more of them and on and on. What I found interesting with that too was that, again, in the old EU, a large part of the labor force for the original Death Star was Wookiee Slaves. Interesting. And you didn't have any of that for this. Now in fairness, these guys weren't putting shit on the Death Star, so you still could

have Wookiee Slaves putting the things together. Obviously the robots were putting this widget in between the things that it was then, I think, a part of the dish that fired upon. Oh shit, what's it called? Scarif. Scarif. Yeah, Scarif. But yeah, I just loved the banality of what he was doing.

The fact that it did not matter. It could have just been make work. It could have been, we're going to break these rocks into smaller rocks. Right. It could have absolutely been that. Yeah. And then, but it's like, it took that next step of like, okay, now we're going to use that gravel to build up a raised bed for the railroad to then take your people into camps. Like it was that level of like just banal evil. So, and I like that he died trying to destroy the very earth and in his death, he enabled the destruction of the thing that killed him too. Yeah. There's one more cycle to that revolution. Yeah. And, and what I think is, is fascinating about his arc his arc in the show is that it's that moment,

like when in the very last episode, when he realizes that while on Ferix to attend Marva's funeral, he realizes that Vel and Luthen are there to kill him. That he is then realizes that, like, I have not only information that they know could hurt them, right? Like, I could give their identities away. I'm the only person who knows who they them. Right. I could give their identities away. I'm the only person who knows who they are. Right. That's basically alive and outside of their control. Right. And he makes that moment where he puts the gun down next to Luther before Luther even gets there and is like,

you have the opportunity to kill me or you can take me with you. Right. Right. And it's at that point where he, he like fully actualizes into, he has moved from the lump and proletariat into the revolutionary proletariat, right? Like that he has become class conscious of his position and his ability to, to actualize change and is willing to sacrifice his leisure, his comfort, his ability to just run away, take the money that he has. His mom's now dead. He can try to go live on the beach if he really wanted to, but he's been changed. He's seen things that he cannot unsee.

And now that he's done that, he can die because he has actualized. And what's great about that is that he then forces Luthen to embrace a morality again. Instead of by any means necessary, it's like, okay, but you still can choose the means. And there's a layer where he gives back Luthen a chance at his own humanity. Yeah. I like that. So. Yeah, I do too. That's really good. And there's definitely a comparison that we could make to Huey Newton's biography is called A Revolutionary Suicide. And that idea that when you get to a point in your car, where you understand that your death is, is ultimately like, uh, um, is a heavy weight that is, is lifted by the work that you do that.

So it's, it's something that when you to the cause that it becomes light. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, lifted by the work that you do that so it's it's something that when you to the cause that it becomes light and and My death is meaningless right it's about the work that I put into it And what I held forward and he get he really gets to that point at that end. Yeah Shit that was heavy. Do we even talk about what we've gleaned, Ed? I am now a whole lot more aware of all levels of Marxist Maoist Lenin's thought than I was three episodes ago.

Yeah, no, it's been an amazing ride and a great conversation. Yeah. Does this mean the next paladin you'll play is the Paladin of the People? You know, it's tempting. I don't know. The Pulaterian Paladin? Yeah. The Pulaterian Paladin, yeah.

Yeah. His favorite weapon is obviously a hammer and a sickle. Hammer and a sickle, yeah, clearly. So, cool. Man, Gabriel, thank you so much for this. Of course. We'll go around the horn. Ed, what are you recommending to people to read or consume in terms of media for this

week? My media recommendation would be that Friend of the Show, Bishop O'Connell's novel, Two-Gun Witch, is now available as an audiobook. So it's an amazing, weird West story and well worth your time and picking up. It's amazing. And this way you can read it without, you know, while you're doing other things. You know, so very highly recommended. Go out. Get it. How about you? I'm going to recommend E.P. Thompson's 1966 book, The Making of the English Working Class. 1966 book, The Making of the English Working Class.

E.B. Thompson actually was also a poet, like he wrote poetry. So the guy's prose is pretty good, like it flows. It's a thick ass book and I didn't realize I'd read so many pages by the time I was done. So it was a seminal work in English working class history as well. So that is what I will recommend. Gabriel, is there something you'd like to recommend to people?

Yeah, I got a short little fun read. It's called From Democracy to Freedom, the difference between government and self-determination. And it's actually published by a group called Crime Think, and that's think spelled T.H.I-N-C. They call themselves an ex workers collective. They're actually anarchists, but I do think that there's a really interesting breakdown and kind of challenging the idea of popular democracy and the weaknesses that that could create within a movement that might become obsessed with like consensus

or plurality when making decisions and the limitations kind of that were learned, especially during the Occupy era of the early 2010s. So definitely a lot of ideas to kind of chew on, not a whole bunch that I agree with, but I do think that it's an interesting read and kind of a breakdown of ideas to kind of chew on, not a whole bunch that I agree with, but I do think that it's an interesting read and kind of a breakdown of like horizontalism versus like vertical decision making. Okay, very cool. All right, Ed, I know that you don't want to be found. Where can they find this fine podcast? We can be found first of all on our website, We can be found first of all on our website www.geekhistorytime.com.

We can also be found on the Apple Podcast app and on Spotify. Wherever it is that you have found us, please take the time to hit the subscribe button and give us the five-star review that you know we deserve. And beyond that, Damien, where can you be found, sir? Actually, you know, fun fact, you can also find us on the Amazon podcast world. So that means if you have a Alexa, you can just say, Hey, Alexa, play a geek history of time. And

that shit should come up. So that's pretty cool. You can find me, let's see, April 5th, May 3rd, whatever that date is in June, that's the first Friday of the month at a comedy spot in Sacramento, California at 9 p.m. slinging puns with capital punishment because we are fucking back, baby. So you can come on down and get us to spin that wheel. So that's mostly where you can find me. Gabriel, is there a thing you'd like to plug? Yeah, you can find, I mentioned the last episode, my band, which is called Get the Wall,

and we are available on all streaming platforms, and we will be playing a show on St. Patrick's weekend. So I think that's March 16th at Big Sexy Brewery. And it will be a fundraiser for NorCal Resist, which is a great organization in the Sacramento region, but helps folks in all of Northern California. And if you come to that show, you will hear a bunch of new songs that will be released that same weekend for our newest EP, which will be entitled Wet Sunset, and will be available on all streaming platforms with our previous EP. So five new songs, and it'll be it'll be good times. Awesome. Very cool. Very cool. Very cool

All right. Well Dude, thank you so much everybody Gabriel guy fantastic job doing it better than any of us could have Thank you for joining us for this And for a geek history of time. I'm Damian Harmony and I'm Ed Blaylock and until next time may the force be with you