A Geek History of Time - Episode 34- Marvel's Civil War and the Patriot Act

Episode Date: November 4, 2019

Damian sets up the real-world background for the passage of the Patriot Act in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. Ed laments how the Civil War series seemed to fall apart. They both mourn several parts of the Bill of Rights. Good times.

You know, Stalin and the Nazis were these welfare state types. One of us is a stand-up comic. Can you tell me it is, ladies and gentlemen, everyone brick. Um, but the problem. Oh my god. That's like, I can use that to teach the whole world. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha This is a geek history of time. Where we connect Nurtory to the real world. I'm Ed Blaylock, I'm a seventh grade world history teacher here in Northern California, and a father of a 22 month old

little boy. Awesome. And who are you? I'm David Harmony. I'm a Latin teacher who dabbles in world history as well. You dabbler. Died dabble. I am a tourist.

I actually just finished going over seven different empires with the kids and they're starting to all figure out that empires follow the same trajectory. Well good. I'm not gonna ask them today. I said, hey, so now that we know that an empire is working with high schoolers. I wish you were two.

Come on, apply up here. I don't know if you're okay. Some day. But I asked as high schoolers today, said, so was America ever an empire? That was a fun question for them. And then I asked, where are we on the trajectory? And one of them immediately says,

oh, we're in the bad leader stage. Can't argue. So, water's kids, because that's pretty quick on the uptake. Nope. Okay. Well, we just show this time hammering it home. Okay.

Well, and that just shows how obvious our circumstances are. Yes. If he's soft-morking, get it. Yeah. Well, wait. Our president is kind of, oh no, he's just soft-morking. Yes. Sorry.

Don't insult the reading level of our student. Don't be a fool. Yeah. This rule judge't be a fool. Yeah This re will judge you as a devil. Oh my god. So yeah, I'm Damien Harmony I'm also a father of two my daughter is almost finished with the seventh Harry Potter book Yep, okay, hold on last time we talked about this she was on the fourth one. Yeah, she's just about don't look the seventh wow She's predicted devoured them. Yes. All right So wait, okay, she's almost done with the seventh. Wow. She's predicted. Devoured them. Yes. All right. So wait, okay, she's almost done with the seventh book.

So how many time, over the course of her reading the seventh book, how many times has she disintegrated into tears or thrown the book against the wall? I don't think any because she plays her emotions much more close to the chest. Okay. Yeah. Because so I got it because we're talking about the Harry Potter books. I got to share this. So the seventh book came out and my best friend from college, he and his wife developed

the tradition that he would read each book to her. Oh neat. Allowed. And they got to the seventh book. And I was, I don't know, a day or two behind them. Okay. And so he was working really hard when he was commenting on stuff, he's working really hard not to not to throw any spoilers at me or anything. But there were a couple of points at which I got bewildered angry all caps text messages about the fucking house elf really you know I am care yeah you like you got to kill characters yeah so you go for the owl yeah really you're gonna do like he was he was in coherently angry because

JK Rowling had reduced his wife to sobbing tears because she was so invested in all his characters And now she was and now she was weeping and now he wanted to kill somebody because that's how that works I'm curious I'm curious as to how my daughter is gonna handle George dying or Fred I can't remember. Yeah, the Weasley Twins. Yeah, him dying or Tonks and Leapin. Oh, my God. I loved it because it was all about the Blitz.

Yeah, well, yeah, it was the Blitz and the Great War and yeah. It was a British person. Now, my son, he's not reading Harry Potter but he's getting better and better at math. He's really growing in his love of multiplication. And he's also started reading Star Wars comics because he has decided that instead of being super in a marvel, he's now super into Star Wars. Okay. I'm like, oh darn. Oh, shucks. Like you just went from my favorite to my favorite. Yeah. It was cool.

Okay, we're good with that. Yeah. No, it, I think it's interesting, and I'm gonna mention it to the audience right now that it is something we have remarked on. How long it took us to get around to talking about Star Wars in an episode because we are both of us super fans.

It's one of the few overlaps we actually got. Yeah, it's one of the few places where our nerdery actually like meets up. And it might have just been a Canadian standoff. It might. Where we're just holding a door open for you to get up. Yeah, like, it's inside of a hall. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, no, no, you go.

No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, you go. I'm so sorry, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. We got ways to make it. You say the letter. Oh Sorry, remember was that Canadian bacon? I'm trying to remember the title of the movie, but yeah, yeah We got ways to make it you say So yeah, but there's still both kind of into Marvel But they they are certainly branching off into other directions.

Well, that's good. Yeah, that's good. So, hey, do you remember back in the mid-2000s, it's really, really, hazy. There was a- I was going through some stuff, but I'll try. Yeah, there was a comic series that came out, it was sprawling across all of the issues of Marvel. It's called so war. Oh, see, oh, yeah. Yeah, see when you said it was sprawling across all the issues, I was gonna say, wait, did DC do another crisis

in the middle of that time period? And like, I just missed it. They might have, I don't know. Yeah, who knows? That'll be your episode. Yeah, I'm sorry. What? No, I'm touching DC. They might have I don't know yeah, who knows that'll be your episode I'm sorry what I do I'm touching DC Make you marble yeah same here, but yeah, no civil war. I remember the war. Yeah Well, what if I told you that the civil

Or the assassination of Tony Stark. Yeah, he finally got interesting That's not fair. He was an alcoholic at one point too. Yes. So, you know, but he was always a sea-lister. Yeah. And until this, and then I think this. Well, and then I've heard Downey Jr. Yeah.

Playing him in the movies immediately. One year thereafter. Like, yeah, Robert Downey Jr. playing anybody, any fictional character in the movies will immediately turn them into an A. Yes. Because it's Robert Downey Jr. True.

But this did occur. This predates the MCU completely. Well, we all day, hold on. It predates Iron Man and the Hulk with Edward Norton. So the ones where they start having post-predic scenes, it predates them. Okay, so we're dating MCU from there, not from the earlier Hulk film. Right. OK.

Because the MCU is where you start weaving them together in the post-credits scenes. OK. So the Civil War is patriotic. And that's what we're going to talk about today. Oh, great. OK. Yeah.

All right. I'm here. You're sitting down. You're gonna be very sad. I'm gonna. Very down. Yeah. Okay. So Civil War and Marvel Comics was a major watershed for Marvel Comics because it took an inherently moral issue and pushed hard on both sides and their mentalities. Yeah. It didn't just present, here's the moral issue and here's clearly the right side. We're gonna go punch Nazis now. Yeah. It didn't just present, here's the moral issue, and here's clearly the right side. We're gonna go punch Nazis now. Yeah, it wasn't just that.

It was. The issue was not presented as just being a straight up duality, one side is right, one side is wrong. Right, it was. It really got into, no, there are aspects on both sides. Yeah. And it worked, and it worked despite itself. Like so many things. Okay, I'm gonna wait to hear your thesis and then let's see whether you're convinced me. So,

so it was published in about a six months period from July 2006 to January 2007. There were several delays along the way, but those are the basic publication dates. And it was a direct reflection of some of the pretty key civil liberties issues that were arising and Had already been decided at that time. Okay, so here's what's happening in 2006 2007 And and well to get to there we got to get to what led up to it So like so many of the other episodes where I focus on something we're gonna go back to 9-11 Dude get over it. I evidently I never forget like Mick Mulvaney has told all of us to do get over it Yeah, well apparently I never forget. Yeah Rudy Giuliani might really well, you know clearly he has issues. Yeah, so but

Carol 9-11 happened. Yeah, um and at As it shook America to its core, it shook us to the point where I'd argue that it dislodged America from any realistic ties to the Democratic Republic we'd aspire to be in. OK. We ceased to be that promise. And there might have been death throws and gasps

and plugging in and resetting the machine. The life support machinery. And it was still, but it wasn't just 9-11 that did it, right? So it was also, there was a series of anthrax attacks a week later. And there was also a plane that crashed over Queens a month afterwards called American Airlines 587. It was a really scary time for people.

And it felt like there was an increasingly dangerous world coming down around us. Well, it was the first time in two generations that as a nation, we had suffered that kind of attack on our own soil. On our own soil. On our own soil. Because we had the USS Colond 2000 and there were a couple of bombings of US embassies, but those are all remote and in places that you could debate whether or not we should have been. Yes, but the other thing I'm going to argue here is that there's a qualitative difference

between them as well. Now all of those were carried out by terrorist organizations that had anti-American agendas because of reasons. But they were military. They were... One of them was a military target. The others were diplomatic targets. And there's the issue of 9-11 being the attack on our homeland.

But there's also the aspect of, well, yeah, it was qualitatively a kind, it came from a direction and was carried out in a manner that we had never witnessed before. It was an entirely novel form of attack. True. The idea that like the analogy I always use is the pattern on the wallpaper. Right.

We see airliners fly overhead every day. We don't even think about it. Right. Hardly even notice them. It'll be like, oh, I hear that. Oh, hey, I'm in to play south, Southwest, right, whatever, whatever. And to all of a sudden have the pattern on the wallpaper come out and kill several thousand people. Yes. Was fundamentally different. Yes. From a terrorist crashing a boat with a bomb into a US cruiser or somebody suicide bombing. You know, those were forms of attack we had seen before. They were horrible for the people who had to go through them for the families of people who had to go to the room. But this was a mass casualty event carried out using part of the fabric of our own society and our own economy.

Absolutely. Even, even Pearl Harbor, which was massively traumatic for the generation that witnessed that, that was a military attack on a military target. Military target. Absolutely. You know, this, this, this, the, the level of shock that we all suffered was not just because of the scale of the attack, but it was because literally we couldn't trust anything anymore. Yep.

I'm glad you're pointing that out because that's going to come back out. Like anything. Yep. And like even when we had the Oklahoma City bombing, which was a truck bomb. Yeah. And that was a fairly new thing for us. Yeah. And and then the other contexts outside of the United States.

Well, and the year prior, yeah, you're right in Beirut, but also the year prior to that, you'd seen it at the World Trade Center, if you remember. This is true. So we're like, okay, also attacked by Al Qaeda. Yeah. Or it's an incident. Yeah. And so it's like, okay, those are ways that people do attacking and that's really awful

and we'll see what we can do about this. This was an empty truck blowing up and killing hundreds of children. Or dozens of children, hundreds of people is awful. A plane crashing into a building is even worse because everybody on that plane is dead and then everybody in the building is also going to suffer. Many are gonna die. So, and again, a month later, there was that plane crash American Airlines 587.

And I remember being in a credential program and all of us were just stunned yet again and of course everybody thought that it was sabotage and all that and it turns out it might have been just I believe the engine failure yeah so it's scary time and it felt like there was a lot of danger and as a result Americans and their elected representatives were looking for security this all fed very quickly into the understandable and I say unforgivable urge to restrict civil liberties through expanding policing by multiple magnitudes and on multiple levels. Jim Sensenbrenner wrote a majority of the Patriot Act. Patriot Act, the word

Patriot is actually an acronym, I forget exactly what it stands for. Yeah, it's gross. Anytime you get to a PATR IOT, seven letter acronym, you're working too hard. Yeah, but and also you're clearly trying to fit the word Patriot into your mouth. Yeah, you're working too hard. You're just like... Some of this already incorporated already in motion plans and legislation that was introduced earlier that session anyway. Some of this already incorporated already in motion plans and legislation that was introduced earlier that session anyway.

So you just kind of baking it in. Now among its more important aspects, here you go. It authorized indefinite detention of individuals without due process, especially aimed at immigrants. I'm going to say that again because I think it bears repeating. That was already in the works. Indefin definite detention of individuals without due process, especially aimed at immigrants. Prior, okay, that was already in the works prior to 9-11.

Yes. Who was, do you have the information on who was behind that? Sensen Brenner was writing the Patriot Act. There were other people who were writing other things and he folded that in. So I don't know who. All right. Yeah. It also allowed for far more latitude for law enforcement to search homes and businesses without the owner or occupants consent or even their knowledge. I think there's something under construction. Secret bench warrants. That kind of stuff.

Okay. It allowed no judicial oversight beforehand when it came to exploring people's emails Not even bench horns now. Yeah No judicial oversight when it comes to exploring people's phones or their messaging services or their financial records And on and on it a loud law enforcement far greater laxity when it comes to library records Library records Medical records and on and on. You have these huge sweeping massive changes. Yeah. Now normally for a shift like that, you expect months and months and months of debate,

discussion, legislators do. Yeah. Yeah. This got passed without anybody's thing. It's taken them since 1921 to continue the debate on the equal rights amendment to the Constitution. 21. So that's where almost 100 years out from that, which has the nefarious goal of ending legal distinctions between men and women by codifying it into the Constitution. Just to give you an idea is to what's taken almost a hundred years to get into the Constitution with no sight of it happening any time soon. Quote, equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any

state on account of sex. Period. Yeah. Now they grind slow on the important things like that. Yeah. important things like that. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, the, it says a lot about who it is, who has been making the decisions, who has been getting elected forever. And then it says an awful lot about how completely panicked we all were collectively as a society. Yeah. Because because the thing is the the

debate over ERA is whether ERA gets passed or not is a matter of representation. It's a matter of opening doors for people who haven't had doors open for them. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a big deal. But within the context of where everybody's nervous system was immediately after 9-11, this was a matter of, no, no, we just got to do it. Like everybody went into fight or flight. This was a matter of, no, no, we just got to do it.

Like everybody went into fight or flight. Like collectively as a society, we went into fight or flight. And the Patriot Act was the flight part of that. We have to make ourselves safe behind a fortress wall. We have to be able to find all the bad guys. We have to stop all the bad guys. And we have to basically exponentially increase the Truman doctrine.

Yeah, in the idea that chaos anywhere is a threat everywhere. Like, and we talked about, when we were talking about McCarthyism and everything related to that. That's an untenable policy. You just can't. You can't eliminate it. You have set yourself up for failure.

And you set yourself for perpetual war. Yeah. So you want to know how long it took to get from when Sensenbrenner wrote the Patriot Act and got it signed into law It was introduced October 23rd Okay, the very next day it was passed in the house 357 to 66 Holy shit there were nine no votes Three Republicans voted no

Democrats comprised the other 62 no votes But they also comprised 147 yes votes. The Senate passed it the following day October 25th 98 to one. Who voted no? Russ finegold, Democrat from Wisconsin. Of course it'd be it was Consonian. God bless him. He was the genetic ranking of his day. Yeah. Almost the same area too, she's from Montana.

The following day, October 26, 2001, George Bush signed it into law. Well, because of course he did. Not a single legislator who voted to pass it had it read it all the way through. It's roughly 130 pages or so to start with. Of, by the way, I want to point out, there's a difference between reading, having gone through a legal training program. There is a really big difference between reading 130 pages of a history book and 130 pages of legislation.

Reading 130 pages of a history book or some kind of informational text. That's a nice night. That's an afternoon, that's an evening, have a glass of wine, you can get through it, it'll take you a couple of hours, probably. But you can do that. 130 pages of legislation.

Yeah. I don't care if you're Thomas Jefferson and you have an IQ of 175 You are going to have to think while you are reading and that is gonna take you days And not only that but this legislation sprawls and seeps into everything. It touches it touches on regulations all over It's the reason that you have to Sign something at the pharmacy to get suit罪 fed. That's Patriot Act.

I thought that was pre-patreot Act. No, that's Patriot Act. It folded into it. Okay. There might have been other things tied to it. There was okay. But folded into it into the Patriot Act was that specific thing. Okay. So the ACLU, the American Librarians Association, and a bunch of others begin challenging

the law almost immediately. Because yeah, right. Job. Well, actually, it's the job of the legislators. Well, they took an oath to uphold the Constitution. It's nice that we have this redundancy built in of other people who are watch drugs. True. Good point. So the courts quietly overturned chunks of it,

which was nice. Good. Much of it was short term, though, with sunset clauses to take effect in 2005. Oh, you being the overturning head sunset clause? No, no, the act. The act is okay, yeah. So for those of us not doing the math,

that was to happen after the next inauguration took itself. Okay, yeah. So for those of us not doing the math, that was to happen after the next inauguration took place. Well, yeah. Many of them was supposed to, yeah. Because kicking the can down the road is what legislators do. Better than just about anything. But also, he kept us safe this whole time. And now he's got a second term.

That's what that. Yeah, well, yeah. Many were, many of these things were set to over two sunset in December of 2005. Okay, so hold on. Yes. Question. Sure. Real faster. The the Congress that passed this. Yes. I'm trying to remember. Was this a, we had a Republican administration on this, was Republican Congress. Yeah. so yes, of course they wanted to make sure that it would sunset after yeah It's not till midterms of his second term that it was Democrat. Yeah, majority. Okay So consider that for just a second. Okay, the party that's in power

Set this up to sunset after another presidential administration or election. And this sunsetting is the important part to our comic story. It's 2005. In July 2005 legislators voted to continue the act not letting it sunset. Okay. March of 2006, it was passed again, expanding its powers to include death penalties for those detained. It's strength and court security, it deepened law enforcement's ability to look into financing, and it was signed yet again by the president. Okay. Now, by this time, he had also independently of the Patriot Act, but concurrently, effectively in the same time period, founded the Department of Homeland Security and shuffled a bunch of different departments into DHS, not least of which was the Coast Guard, which by the way, speak

to any coasty about that, and you will get an unprintable response Because they had previously that yeah Great. Yeah, and we know how well that's you know turned out for everybody who wants to fly anywhere at all ever in this country You can ask my wife about the rants. She has to put up with anytime We have to travel anywhere by aircraft. Oh, I bet. Because we get through security and I'm such a bullshit coward.

I tell you, because I get so hopped up, I get so angry, but while I'm actually standing there with the TSA, people I'm like, no, I gotta get on the flight. Yes, it knows her. Yeah, you know. And then afterward, I'm, you know, Goddamn it. Mr. Yes, sir, no, sir. Yeah, you know. And then afterward, I'm, you know, Goddamn it. Mr. Mr. Libertarian Justice Warrior.

I don't, I don't, I don't. I don't, I'm a free man in a free country. I shouldn't have to put up with this bullshit. Yeah. But, you know, in the moment, I don't, I don't have the courage to be with you. Well, because you have a stake in continuing forward, you don't have the time to give toward fighting the good fight

because you're raising a child and part of a family. Yeah, well, and this was even, this was how they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they get you. How they Fourth Amendment. Yes. Like, they just papered over. Just like, you know, we don't really need this one. Yeah.

Now, once it was time. Partly anybody remembers it from when they studied government in school. Right. You know, they ask anybody, what's the Fourth Amendment? Nobody pleads the Fourth. Oh, yeah, nobody should. They should.

Yeah. Nobody pleads the Fourth. Yeah. And when you pleade the Fifth, everybody is like, oh, well, see, you know, nobody understands what the Bill writes was supposed to fucking do. Anyway, sorry. It's okay.

So studies teachers, we can bitch about this stuff all night. So carry on. Once it was time to reauthorize, it wasn't so much the fear of lack of security anymore. It was that it had normalized. We're gonna do this again. Yeah, keep going. Yeah, whatever. Now just for kicks, I'm gonna read something here in support of the need to restrict

with civil liberties actually in times of crisis, okay? I like to do my due diligence. So quote, it is therefore permissible to restrict the rights of personal freedom, freedom of expression, including freedom of the press, the freedom to organize and assemble, the privacy of postal communications.

Warrants for house searches, orders for confiscations, as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed. Also, quote, in keeping with the purpose and aim of the decree the additional measures, we'll be directed against the,

we're gonna leave it redacted for just a second in the first instance, but then also against those who cooperate with the redacted and who support and encourage their criminal aims. I would point out that any necessary measures against members or establishments of other than redacted can only be justified by the decree if they serve to help the defense against redacted activities in the widest sense. Redacted is Jews and Jewish, isn't it? And this is a quote from the third fucking Reich. It is. Yeah. The first one is the preamble. I know your tricks, sir. Yeah, well, we know their tricks too, and it still happened.

Yeah, damn it. The first one was from the preamble and article one of the Reichstag fire decree. Ha-ha-ha. Ha-ha-ha. Second one was from a very respected veteran of the first world war, a hero pilot named Herman Gurring. Yeah.

Also a huge goddamn Nazi. A huge goddamn Nazi, heroin addict, art thief. Yeah. So. So, back to 2006, March of 2000. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jumping forward. A couple other things have happened.

Are we really though? Yeah. Yeah. The election season is about Iraq. The war is not ending. We aren't being greeted as liberators, and the Patriot Act is not sunsetting. Now this is 2004. We're talking March 2006, so it's not an election year for the president.

This is for legislators. It's a congressional term election. It's term elections. As you said before, this is the one where the Republicans lose their majority. Yeah, interestingly, the 2004 election was between one man who had dodged the draft a number of times. Another man who had served in the same

more that the first man had dodged. And then they were arguing about that war, instead of the current war that we were in. And they were arguing about that war. And the one who'd actually served was painted as some sort of a war coward, and it worked. Yeah.

So March 2006, a couple of other things have happened. The election season, like I said, it's about Iraq. It's not ending where we are not being greeted as liberators. The Patriot Act is not something. It's turning into our generations Vietnam. Yes, it's Southwest Asians that of Southeast Asia. That's kind of the difference. Same distance too. There had been rumblings as early as Bush's victory in 2004

of Sunsetting it and during the beginning of a second term in 2005, there was a ramping up of true presence. Remember the surge? Yep. It was in the works despite popular opinion being otherwise. However, I will point this out. Even Obama said that the surge actually was effective. Yeah. If you're there, you might as well go all in and it turns out the Rumsfeld doctrine was not working and just getting people killed. A branch of the government. Well, you got a war with the army you have. Yeah. You know, there are some things that Rumsfeld said that I defend, that he took shit for

that, no, no, no, that's actually a meaningful thing. If you're not looking for something to mock, the no-no-noons, unknown-un-nones, that little thing. I actually like that quote. Yeah. That is a meaningful, remarkably, actually, when you think about it, it's's kind of common sense but it's not anything anybody ever thinks about right right well the band rancid did they said all I know is that I don't know nothing okay well yeah so other than rancid from the sake of rancid done a

rancid well you know and and I remember pundits and comedians and everybody you know being like what nonsense is this is a bullshit No, it actually makes sense and like at the time no no no if you're gonna pick on the man Yeah, there's plenty of valid shit to pick on him for all this you know you go to war with the army You have like tell you what? Going to war or something you got to declare yeah going to war is is an active decision you got to make How about you just don't go to war if the army isn't ready Like the Iraq invasion and the occupation was not something we had to do Especially since they weren't actually tied to the people who crashed the plane

They had nothing to do with 9-11 at all. Yeah now in the popular imagination that link was created. Yes. Well because there was a queue in both words Al-Qaeda and Iraq. And Iraq. So that was thousand up. And they're all Arabs. Right. Right. Except the majority of the people in Iraq are actually Shiite Muslims and Al-Qaeda is by its definition wahabist, which isn't just Sunni. It's like fundamentalist Sunni. Yeah. They're like the Franklin grams of the Muslim world. They're the John Berks Society. Yeah, good one. Yes, they are. You know, so, and so, you know, yeah, there was a great article, I want to say it was in the Atlantic. Or it might have been, well, no, it might have been Rolling Stone. But anyway, it was written by a political analyst. In, in, I want to say it was like, oh, seven, that made a really remarkable comparison and contrast between George H.W. Bush, Bush the lesser, and Henry the fifth.

Okay. Henry the fifth picked a fight and started a war or rekindled a war that had never officially ended with the French. Secured himself an overwhelming rapid victory and was lauded as a hero by his people, but in the process he bankrupted England and created a huge financial economic mess. George W. Bush wanted to do the first part of that. Right. Thought he could avoid the second part of it. Right.

And failed on all counts. Yes. And the author then went and got into, you know, Henry V was trying to do this in order to get rid of the stain of illegitimacy of his claim to the throne through his father who was a usurper and george h.w.bush was trying to do this because there had always been the questions about the legitimacy of selection and there was his daddy issues i got a friend

so i can get up and show to you because it was an amazing historical parallel i have a question did henry the fifth actually raised taxes for his war I got to find the record at some point. So I can dig it up and show it to you because it was an amazing historical parallel. I have a question. Did Henry the fifth actually race taxes for his war? Because normally if you go to war, you should race taxes. Just saying that out loud. Just saying, yeah, he did.

He levied, well, which was what medieval monarchs did. Yes, they went to everybody and said, hey, hey, go on a word, France, pay up. Yep. You know, you got two choices. Show up with all your kit or, you know, pay me. So I can pay mercenaries, you know, or, you know, both. Bush didn't do that.

Bush, no. Bush gave us all attached. Bush gave us all $300. Taxed, yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, drove the deficit through the ceiling. Well, because they're the party of physical responsibility. Oh, yeah.

So, sorry. Sorry, I'm trying to pull over the forward progress. That's fine. So sorry. Sorry, I can't follow over the forward progress. That's fine. So you've got this surge that's starting to go despite public opinion being against it. So I would just like to point out that a branch of the government was ignoring the public will. Yes.

I think it's time for a commercial. All right, let's do that. Hey, geek nation, this is Ed. And Damien, hey, what you got there? I got a copy of the stolen by my good friend, Bishop O'Connell. He is a Norwegian wedding cake creator? No, he is not. He is an urban fantasy writer, remember the science fiction writers of America?

Oh wow, so that looks like it says one of three. Yes, well, it's the first volume of an American fairy tale. The other two volumes are the forgotten and the returned. Nice. What's, it's fairy tales. I mean, there's a lot of Celtic and Irish folklore in there. A very great deal, yes. The first novel actually involves the characters traveling to Tear and Nondog. No kidding.

Yeah. Wow, I remember that from Titanic. Yeah, you have. Good day, sir! With that back to the show. Oh, God, what a good ad. Fine work, Mr. Harmony. Thank you. Fine work.

Thank you. Alright, so when we left off, it was March of 2006. Yes. A couple other things have happened, by the way. But what I'm here to talk to you about is Marvel Comics. Okay. So here's Marvel. They just finished two years of crossover events dealing with the falling faith in heroes

Okay Avengers disassembled okay house of M and decimation Okay, I remember house of them everybody remembers I don't I'm going to admit Mm-hmm. I was not Reading I was not reading enough titles. I was not reading enough titles regularly enough to know all the details, but I remember there was an awful lot of shit going on. Yes, it was about the reality that we're living in

is not the reality that's actually real and because the people who are in charge don't actually get to be in charge even though one of them is in charge and she had the power to make everybody in charge don't actually get to be in charge, even though one of them is in charge. And she had the power to make everybody in charge. And yet the real reality is that they weren't in charge and therefore it's gonna come crashing down. And yeah.

I'm hearing Scarlet Witches involved here. Yes. The Thee. She's in charge, but she's not really. That's clearly Scarlet Witches, a reality bender. Yes. Now was this the same kind of set of storylines that involved Magneto coming back as a different mutant?

No. Who didn't remember who he was and who was some kind of psychic. That's a different one. So that's where he comes back as Joshua or something. Some like that. Yeah. No, this is Magneto's in charge of the entire world. The mutants are running the world,

and they're keeping the world mutants. There we go. And it's like Bartertown. Yeah. But. So Magnetos in charge, Quixilver is like the young princeling and Scarlett, which is finally getting everything

that she wants, right? And as it turns out. Well, the moment Scarlett, which is finally getting everything that she wants, right? And as it turns out... Well, the moment Scarlett, which gets everything she wants, shits about to go terribly, terribly wrong, because that can't be allowed to happen. And as it... That's a trope. Yes.

Okay. And so as it turns out, Wolverine is because of his healing factor, because he's so old and all that kind of stuff, he's like, there's something to just ain't right, and he starts to see and pierce the veil of reality. The mutants are in charge in this world. And yeah. Wolverine is the one who lives with the wisdom and sagacity. And he also gets Peter Parker involved, who is lower class citizen, but eventually they appear to surveil and it turns out it's not Magneto that's been

manipulating Wanda this whole time. It's actually a quick solar. Quick solar. Yeah, the sun. I would just like to point out the sun, it's on charge, it's fantasy world that has made second classclass citizens of everyone else So it's a really interesting inversion

So but hey these huge crossovers were gaining steam, but they weren't really taking off So if you're a Marvel head, yeah, they're important But they're important in the same way that like the first novel of Voltaire is probably important to you. It's not Candid, but it's something else, etc. Yeah, it sets the stage for other stuff. It's it's it's it's it's the Evidence of the road that the creator passed on to get to the master work. Yeah, okay, and the zeitgeist is getting increasingly grim Well, yeah, yeah, cuz it's 2000 and uh... the zeitgeist is getting increasingly grim well yeah because it's two thousand

surrounded by war in a rack that's not ending in the real one it too we've got but if we but if we pull out and leave we're going to be responsible for breaking it not buying it right potter bar bar and the funny thing is i'm not even talk about our forum policy, I'm talking about the world that we live in here in America.

So it's not just in the universe of Marvel that this is fucked up, it's a real issue that's touching most of us. And comic books are starting to hold up a mirror saying, having you had enough. And the threat and the fear that Americans felt was no longer abstract like it was in the Cold War. As much as it caused nightmares and little girls, as much as it completely perverted and warped comics, this was specific, it was unpredictable, and it was subtle.

Okay. The terrorists could attack it any point again, and we know exactly what it looks like. Here's the basics. Okay, here's what leads to the Civil War. My favorite team of all time, the New Warriors, have slid down the ranks of Herodom to the point of being a reality show.

Okay. 2006. Yeah. Reality TV is a big deal, and it's really hitting it's right. Every network had something on it That was unscripted and overly produced. Unscripted. They were unscripted. Yeah, but they were heavily edited to create an error Yeah, so these kids end up in a fight that's way over their heads Which leads to the death of 600 people in Stanford, Connecticut

This includes over 60 kids as the epicenter was just on the other side of offense to a school playground. Okay. This kills all the new warriors, save for one, who's got the ability to absorb kinetic energy and bounce away from it. He gets blown to like upstate New York by the explosion. The bad guy, and I might be getting my state wrong,

but the bad guy, Nitro, blows getting my state wrong, but the bad guy Nitro blows up, he's got the ability to blow himself up and then come back a few minutes later. He blows up to such a level that it's a nuclear bomb going off in Stanford immediately killing Numerita, which is a damn shame she was cold. Yeah. And a bunch all the other new warriors too. They're just vaporized immediately. After this happens, people lose faith in superheroes because these kids took it too far and got people killed on camera. They're on camera saying these guys look a little tough. Yeah, but what would the ratings be like

if we beat them? And they went and stormed the house of the bad guys. They didn't wait till the bad guys were caught in Flagronto or anything like that. There's a movement toward regulating superpowered individuals and holding them accountable like the police are alleged to be. Well, wait, hold on. Yes. Clearly, we're talking about a fantasy universe here because you're saying that police officers

are actually held accountable. Yeah. Law enforcement actually has account. My God, what escapist fiction is this. It's pre smartphone. Okay. So this all sounds quaint now. Yeah. And somewhat full gone. People now would look back and wonder why there was even an argument. Yeah. And back then though, the idea of superheroes not having secret identities was exceedingly rare. We can thank the MCU for this. Yeah. Because the Iron Man movie wouldn't come out for another two years, which means that mass culture didn't know of a world where

superheroes just call each other by their first name on missions. And their identities weren't secret. Like in all the movies he's Tony. Yeah. He's Steve or Cap, but everybody knows Steve Rogers is Cap. Everybody knows Natasha Romanov is the Black Widow. I mean, to be fair, she, oh, she never wore a mask anyway in the movies. Um, but on the comics, there was a brief interlude where she was dumbly dressed. Okay. Um, but you have no secret identities in the MCU, really, except for Peter Parker. And even then, he shares his identity with anybody who's a hero. Yeah.

But not with the rest of us. But within the MCU, that's explicitly shown to kind of be him being a naive kid. Yes. That he does it that way. Yes. So. All right. Yes. That he does it that way. Yes. So, but yeah, prior to civil war, if you were a superhero, you had your superhero identity,

and you had your mortal identity, Yes. And never the Twain Shell meat, and your secret identity was the most important thing you needed to protect. It was a vulnerability that made you easy to be put into danger any time. Yeah.

In fact, the New Warriors even had a storyline whereby their secret identities were found out and a gang basically, a high power to highly financed gang, went and killed some of the relatives of these people. And so it really hardened the New Warriors at one point and it keeps in stakes for them. Yeah. So the stage is set for the comic world, right? People want to reign in superheroes and make them register because of their powers. Yeah. That's not new. There had been the Mutant Registration Act in the 1980s. Now that was an allegory

for all kinds of bigotry at that time. So now things have changed and there's a conflict and there's very decent people on both sides trying to do the right thing. And I don't actually mean that as globally as it sounds. Okay, yeah, it was gonna ask you. The music of the phrase, very decent people. But they are. Like that's the thing.

You have a very solid argument of y'all are just running around doing whatever do you want. And you have the other solid argument of, you don't get to register me just because of who I am. And there's also at some point, the comic version of the 308 rule gets brought up, which was done real well in the movie, Civil War, which was, look, we have the ability

to stop stuff from happening. We have the ability, you know from happening. We have the ability You know this the registration act is going to prevent us being able to do what makes us right heroes We we have we have the power to stop people from doing these things, right? Which means since we have the power we have the responsibility. Yes You know that was that wasar argument was. Yes. This is the whole reason that I became what I am. Now that's, that's MCU and I might have to wait for it.

I know, I know, I understand. So, so instead I want you to read this panel. Yep. This doctor sure is talking to Reed Richards. Okay. At a meeting of all the heroes in the Baxter building. Okay. Uh, so Strange says, so what are they saying, Dr. Richards?

That'll be forced to become a federal employee or face it weren't for my arrest. And Reed Richards responds, actually, you were one of the few post-humans they're hoping to seek a compromise with Stephen. Somebody at the bottom of the frame, who I can't make out. It's just a lot of- Oh, that's Luke Cage. Okay, Luke Cage.

Pension plans and annual vacation time. It's ridiculous. What are they trying to do? Turn us into civil servants. And then, oh no, that's wasp. Oh, wasp, says. And next wasp is a bald dude with... That's Luke Cage.

That's Luke Cage. Looks to me like they're closing us down, wasp. Good. And now, in the frame, I want to point out, who all is in the frame. We have Iron Man in his armor, Falcon, Spider-Woman, Wolverine, for some reason is standing between Reed Richards and Strange,

which like of all the places he'd be hanging out at that party that doesn't make any sense to me. Ben Grimm is behind Strange, which he's within proximity of Richard, so that makes sense. She Hulk is there, whatever name Hank Pym was going by at the time there. Oh, that's yellow jacket. Yellow jacket. You got Nightwing right there. Nightwing. Patriot, hopefully, the new Hawkeye Cyclops. Yeah, and I forget oh a stature Okay, so oh young Avengers okay, so then cool all right They're shutting us down is the punchline there tagline

Ah, and then Tony Stark or making us more legitimate. Why shouldn't we better train in publicly accountable Somebody said we should go on strike if they mess with us like this does anybody else think that's a good idea. No, this is Reed Richards responding to that. No, it's Patriot right no, I don't think anyone here can seriously advocate a superhero strike son. Cyclops being the middle child forever. So what's the general consensus? Stark, and this is important. As far as I'm concerned, Stanford was our wake up call,

what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity, and he should know becoming public employees makes perfect sense if it helps people sleep a little easier. Falcon, I can't believe I'm hearing this. The masks are a tradition. We can just let them turn us into supercops. Then yellow jacket, are you kidding? We're lucky people have tolerated this for as long as they have Sam.

Why should we be allowed to hide behind these things? Wolverine, because the world ain't so nice outside your ivory tower, Bub. And Ben Grimm, who, as was pointed out in your episode on the Fantastic Four as a perverse nuclear family, tell me about it, Stumpy. You think Johnny would have ended up in the hospital last night if Morons like you wasn't out there giving us a bad name. Now, just real quick, Johnny Storm shows up,

he flies in and deflames right outside of a club. People give him shit for getting celebrity status. And he's like, yeah, yeah, he talked to me later, junior. And he starts to go in and he's attacked by a gang because you're the type of person that killed all those kids, baby killer, and they beat the shit out of him.

So he's hospitalized. Okay. So now is Ben talking about Wolverine giving everybody a bad name. Okay, so now is is Ben Talking about Wolverine giving everybody a bad name. Okay, so that's an argument between the two of them now Wolverine wants Claude Bengger in the face Oh, okay, so he had to wear a mask. So there's there's been there. Yeah, Wolverine has emnity with everybody Yeah, Wolverine is yeah now look who shows up. Ah iron spider. Mm-hmm Who knows but if they're forcing everybody to work for Uncle Sam, I think a whole lot of people might just hang up their tights.

Silver Sable, I think that is Spider-Man. The secret identity, oh no, wait. This is Sue Storm now talking. Sue Storm now talking. Secret identity thing isn't such a big deal. Fantastic Four have been public since the very beginning and it's never really been a serious concern. Yeah, your husband is read fucking Richards.

Yeah, well, good. Yeah, okay. That's what Spidey's response is. Yeah, well, not until that day, I come home and find my wife and paled on an octopus arm and the woman who raised me begging for her life. Yeah, meaningful point there. Mm-hmm.

Now, night wing. Night wing. Does anybody else think we're being a little paranoid here after all? This is also just speculation at the moment, right? And Daredevil, no, this has been building up for a long time, Nighthawk, not Nightwing. You may have against DC.

You're right. Stanford's just throwing the candles back. This is the end of the way we do business. You can smell it in the air. So. So there's that debate raging on. Okay. Now, I want to. And so the debate to encapsulate it, the debate boils down to collective control of superheroes and accountability of superheroes versus the individual right of superheroes and accountability of superheroes versus the

individual right of superheroes to maintain their Forth Amendment rights to privacy. So it's it's in very broad brushes and I think clumsy brushes second versus fourth Okay, I don't like how broad that brush is but it is what people gl glommed onto. Okay. Now, this is Cap talking to Maria Hill. Okay. I think this plan will split us down the middle. I think you're going to have us at war with one another. Well, yeah. Some shield agent, what's the matter with these guys? How can

anyone argue with superheroes being properly trained and paid for a living? How many rebels do you estimate here, Captain, some other shield agent, a lot? Hill, any majors, a cap, a few, but mostly the heroes who work close to the streets, like Daredevil and Luke Cage, Maria Hill. So nobody you can't handle. I picture there being a beat there. There is there is a shift of frame. But but were it were it a Television script. Right. I picture there is a pause. Yep. Followed by Capsang. Excuse me. Mm-hmm. And Maria Hill with a

and Maria Hill with a particular kind of expression on her face. I don't know if that's just the angle that we're seeing her from. What? She's just looking through. She's smiling. Yeah. You heard. Yep. By the way, I just want to point out, I don't remember what Maria Hill's background is in

the comics prior to joining Sheel. Nor I. But I do know that that kind of language is something that as a cadet in ROTC, we were told, if you're given an illegal order, it is your moral and legal responsibility to refuse to follow it. So if her background, what I'm saying is if her background is military, she should know fucking better. So did William Callie.

No, I'm gonna argue, the reason I got that training was because Callie didn't know better. Okay. Callie is the object lesson in when you get an immoral order, you say no. Yeah. Say, anyway, continue on Marie Hill. This proposal goes to a vote in two weeks time and could be law in as little as a month,

but we can't go in half-cocked. We're already developing an anti-superhuman response unit here, but we need to make sure the Avengers are on side and that you're out there leading the Avengers. Now hang on just a second. How quickly is it going to go to a vote? Two weeks. And how quickly will it be a law? A month.

That's significantly longer in a fantasy world where a man nuclear bombed himself next to a school than what we did as a convulsion of fear. Yeah, after 9-11. Yeah, yeah, please to continue. We need to make sure the Avengers are on side and that you're out there leading the Avengers. Caps response to to Hill's surprise. Forget about it. And notice he's holding up his hand as though he's kind of pledging. Yeah. You're asking me to arrest people who risk their lives for this country every day of the week. Hill, no, I'm asking you to obey the will of the American people, Captain.

Now, that is a valid thing. Yes. It absolutely is. Yes. So you're seeing both ways. By the way, look at the coloration. She's the red side, he's the blue side. Oh yeah, no, they're already setting up.

Yep. Visually, they're already setting up. Yep. They've even got them facing each other. Yeah. And now his response, now he's pissed, and he actually has the shield on his arm. We can see now at this point.

And he's looks like he's not quite shouting but he is clearly you know do a point in finger speaking forcibly don't play politics with Mayhills superheroes need to stay above that stuff or Washington starts telling us who the super villains are and her response as a whole bunch of are those bots or those of the shield agents in who have been around in this whole time. They've been around him the whole time and are in some kind of really hardcore body armor.

Hill says, I thought super villains were guys in masks who refuse to obey the law in italics. Followed by the sound effect chick-chack from several different places as a whole bunch of shield agents cock their firearms so that's

That's what's going on at that time as far as their discussion goes yeah Like I said very decent people on both sides trying to do right yes Iron man wanted to go ahead with it. Okay to have some say in how it's getting carried out. That was why he said, said, no, no, if we get out ahead of this, then we can guide it. And he also wanted to repent for his own shortcomings. Oh, well, because he's had a guilt complex, uh, rightly so. Atonement complex. Yep. Since demon in a ball. Now, the here's the thing. He wasn't his background and he wasn't accidentally given his power He's not the only one of his kind He sought his power out and he uses it to fix it when he's broken

Okay And he uses it to fix what he's broken. Yes, he also tries to get ahead of the curve in terms of thinking about things. He sees this as the better of two bats. It's a scared new world and he sees this as a way to control the damage in the future and sees himself as the bridge between doing right and doing what the government wants. He's working within the system. In short, he doesn't wanna do it, but he sees why others do it, so he's compromising. Hayes code. Yeah. CCA.

If we police ourselves. If we police ourselves, we're not gonna have to, we're not gonna, in this case, it's not, we're going to avoid legislation that we'll be able to have a hand in the legislation.

Yes. Okay. Caps of Jackson is pretty simple, which is in some ways why it's more attractive I think two people now not everybody agrees. I have a friend who absolutely is like dude Oh, so you're in favor of vigilantism. I'm like no I'm not and I can't square that circle. I really know no, but but he says caps says look many people have superpowers that they did not seek And they shouldn't have to register who they are with a government who's been less than trustworthy over the years.

Not even just less than trustworthy, less than competent, namely a super villain that can't hack everything in the Pentagon. Also, he saw Japanese internment. And finally, he explicitly talks about it talks about, I mean, that's something that gets brought up in the comments. Yeah. And this is the most concrete least man out of time reason that there is. Governments are never as invulnerable with their information as they want people to believe. And a dedicated villain can hack in, find, and disseminate all the secret entities of all the people

otherwise trying to do good for the world with what they have. So if you register us, you have basically given everybody our names. So in short, security versus civil liberties in 2006. Yeah. After the Patriot Act doesn't sunset. Yeah. And that's where I'm going to leave this episode. Okay. Because the timing is just such that this will fit perfectly on the other side. Yeah. So having read a bunch of comic books with me for just now. Yeah. Do you want to talk about your takeaway now or just hold off until we finish this whole beast? I think right now my biggest, I don't know if Ahabah, but it's the right term, but it strikes me how

Even as we have our own sympathies for different reasons with the different heroes, you know, prior to, prior to, uprear, before all of this is happening, you know, we have our opinions about Tony Stark, we have our opinions about Steve Rogers, and everybody else involved. The way everything broke down. I remember watching the kind of the blow by blow summaries of who's on what side and how did this work out and what happened and what was remarkable to me at the time was the number of the heroes who wound up not breaking the way that I had anticipated.

And the reasons for that were really good examples of writing. Yes. And so as an artifact of comic book history, I think that's my takeaway right now. All of the zit guy stuff and all the political I mean that that'll require some more talking to get to take away there sure, but that's that's what I'm remembering right now having having we read that whole set of panels with with Very text heavy. Well, it's very text heavy and and you know part of the problem with an audio medium is the visual parts of it We we have to depend on you dear listener to to you know hear us talking the problem with an audio medium is the visual parts of it. We have to depend on you, dear listener, to hear us talking about the contrasts in color. But, you know, it was a very clear,

very overt thing. And the way it was all crafted at the beginning, where we are, we're talking about right now, was all very artfully crafted and the opening fuse Moves of the chess game. Yep, or a remarkable journey. Uh-huh By the way that next scene Cap basically tells her don't do this she says to him basically don't do this And he tells the guys with guns weapons down boys. We don't want to do this And then he runs and jumps out the window of the helicopter. Yeah. And they all start shooting at him. And he lands on a plane.

Oh, yeah, this is this is the point where he shatters the cockpit of the aircraft. Yep. Jump into the aircraft. No, he stays on the outside. He tells the guy to land. And the guy inside swears. He says, watch your mouth son. Yeah. So that's language. Language, yeah. And Maria Hills up there and goes, damn you for doing this.

Yeah. And she's got a point, but at the same time, so to speak. So does he. And that's kind of the point of the Civil War. Yeah. Because in this Civil War, both sides were right. Yeah.

Yeah. Both sides had legitimate arguments. Legitimate arguments. Yeah. were right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Both sides had legitimate arguments. Legitimate arguments. Yeah. All right. So I'm not even going to bother with recommendations on reading because obviously you should read the Civil War. Re-read Civil War.

Yeah. But yeah, we will catch you in the next episode. So for the Geek Nation and yeah, for the geek nation, for a geek history of time, I'm David Harmony. I'm Ed Blaylock. And until next time, keep rolling 20s. Yeah.