A Geek History of Time - Episode 51 - Greek Myths and Superheroes

Episode Date: April 19, 2020

Ed and Damian take a look at both main-and-accepted canons of modern mythology: comic books. And they’ve both come to the same conclusion – nothing has changed in over 8,000 years. Superheros and superpowered beings back then were essentially the same as they are now. We just have more words for the colors of their costumes.

Like they they advertise one match when crashing a car into one of the wrestlers. Not a total victory of Russia, which now we're seeing. He goes on. He's a gigantic bag of flaccid dicks. Sorry, contidence. Which when you open them up, you find out that they're all cockroaches and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if anybody else is ever going to laugh this hard at anything we say.

We can actually both look out my window right now and see some very pretty yellow flowers that I'm going to be eradicating. This is a geek history of time. Well, we connect Mercury to the real world. My name is Ed Blalock. I'm a world history teacher here in Northern California with a side hustle teaching English to seventh graders and I'm the father of a two-year-old who is alternately the sweetest little boy in the world and gives a new meaning to the phrase terrible twos.

And who are you, sir? I'm Damien Harmony. I'm a Latin teacher with a sometimes side hustle of world history. I'm the father of an almost eight-year-old little girl and a 10-year-old big boy. She likes dragons. He likes trains. Between the two of them they make a really cool country song. Neither of them are too close to that. Totally listen to that. Although you know what my daughter is really into? Greek myths. She digs the shit out of them. Yeah, she really likes Greek myths. Which is cool, but it hasn't helped me get her into the thing that I'm really into

Which is comic books See I was thinking you were gonna say wrestling No, I kind of got her into that actually. Okay, she's kind of fallen away Although now that everybody is everybody is on lockdown Everybody is on lockdown for I'm not sure when this episode is going to post so but we're recording it while we're on lockdown but the corpses have not started animating yet so that's good. That's good. Yes, but we have lost Kenny Rogers.

So yeah, we just did. Yeah, the matter of Yeah, we just did. Yeah, matter of fact, we can... So if you are, you know, any future historians who are listening to this post, you could date when we recorded this one. Based on that fact. By that fact.

Yeah. So... But yeah, I could get it on your screen. I have... I have a exposure. Like, we have nothing but time. I have a, yeah, well, this is true. I think I have a way for you to get her into comics. I like this idea.

Using mythology. I like this idea. All right, so hear me out. OK. So three color comics, right? Superhero comics. They are melodrama. By the way, we've done a number of comic book episodes.

The very first two episodes we did were on the CCA. I've done one on the Fantastic Four. I've done two on Captain America. We did a series on the X-Men. Yes we did a series, a combo series on the X-Men. So we are steeped in comic lore. Yes. And so even even when we're talking about low powered micro regional heroes like Daredevil, right? He's waging a battle for the soul of an entire burrow of a city, right? Okay. Green lantern handles threats to entire local galactic clusters. And DC likes to threaten the existence of the entire universe on a semi-regular basis since the 1980s. Okay. Mostly because they keep trying to inflict a cannon.

They try to impose logic and internal consistency on a Canon that has never had it. And I'm going to argue doesn't actually need it because of the nature of the stories they tell, which I'm going to get to in a second. Sure. Although they're all melodrama, though, there's a really notable difference in tone and scale There's a really notable difference in tone and scale between, in general, the stories that DC tells and the stories that Marvel tells. And my argument is that DC superheroes have become, over time, the modern reincarnations of the gods of the accans. By which I mean, the Greeks for anybody who's not, you know, hyper nerdy, like we are.

Yeah. Okay. So you're saying that the, the DC comics superheroes are, yeah, they are the Greek gods. Yeah. You can, you can, you can map. I can Yeah you can you can you can map. I can in many cases you can map a deity onto a superhero. Sure. Oh my god. I'm I'm suddenly interested in DC for once. Yeah no I mean remarkable in it. Yeah so so real quick I want to talk a little bit about DC as an entity, just to give a little historical background. DC started out as national allied publications in 1934 with new fun, the big comic magazine, which was the first comic publication to print only original comic stories. You may have touched on this in the CCA episodes when we talk the history of the medium.

Superman appeared in action comics in 38. Batman appeared in Detective Comics in 39. And it is with the big two that I'm going to begin by Jesus. Okay. We're already missing one of the big three. That would be Wonder Woman. Oh, okay, possibly. I was thinking of the three brother gods.

That bearer. Oh. Yeah, that's it. Well, yeah. Oh, does this mean that Gene Titans are actually gonna destroy the galaxy? Cause they're Titans. Oh, oh, maybe. I don't know. I'm kind of getting

into this now. Quite a bit of a revolution here. You're declared DC. Nice. Yeah. Okay. So first and foremost, yeah. First and foremost, Superman is Apollo. Okay. So I'm already, I'm already off base. I mean, that makes, that makes a ton of sense. It wow, yeah, okay, go on. Okay, now the thing is he's also kind of Zeus, but the mapping works better for a follow-up. Right. He's, I mean, okay, right off the bat, Superman is a god. Yes. Let's just in the Greek sense of what a god would look like.

Right. Supes is one. Right. Well, and we talked about that before. He's the classic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He is invulnerable. Mm-hmm. He is super strong. Like solar power. You know, ridiculously. Yes. He can see the unseeable. Oh, yeah. He throws fire from his gaze. His breath has the force of a cyclone, and he can fly. Yeah. Okay. His fortress of solitude is an unreachable by mortals palace at the top of the world. Oh, white and white stone and ice.

Oh, wow. It's Olympus. Okay. He is specifically Apollo, as you mentioned, because he is solar power. There derives power, derives canonically from the sun. And we talk about this all the time back and forth. He is, he is the embodiment of apolonian ideals. He's a champion of moral, moral rectitude, positivity, progress, and do right. You have no idea how hard I was biting my tongue in not jumping in with apolonian ideal because I wanted you to get there. Nice. Nice.

Yeah. Okay. Cool. At his roots, he was a progressive science fiction ass hero, an alien from another planet, who subdued, but never destroyed agents, agents of chaos. Even in the years, since as other heroes have gotten darker or a grimmer or more morally gray, you know all bronze aged people from 90s stuff pouch super rare guns

Yeah, you know Sups has never stopped being Mm-hmm. Oh, I was gonna say he did wear a leather jacket at one point though. So he fawns it out. That's as gritty as he gets. Okay. That's as gritty as he got a, like, no. That, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, I'm sorry.

No, no, he's still ducky fucking do right. He is. He also is one of those heroes that wears all three primary colors. This is true. Right. So that's, yeah, that's leadership, self-sacrifice, and blue is self-sacrifice. Yeah.

Yeah, leadership. Yeah. And red is a heroism, courage. Hero, courage, right. Okay. So he's never, he's never stopped being that epilonian paragon. Like occasionally somebody will throw red grip tonight at him and he'll kind of go dark.

But that's because they need a muguffin for this story and like it always, he always goes back to status quo anti. And he's the brightest source of light in the DC pantheon. And even in stories where he has internal conflict, he only stays conflicted very briefly before reasserting his essential moral rightness. That's, yeah. Okay. Yeah. When we talked about, when we talked about new BSG, we talked about Hilo.

Hilo, which is short for Hilo's. Yes. And him being that character, if you put a temptation in front of Hilo, he's going to resist it. Like, check out his temptation. That's like how that works with Hilo. Sups is the same way. And there's a lot to be said about the Jewish roots

of his character. Of course. The Seagalon Schuster were both Jewish. There's been like plenty of people have spoken much more articulately than me about how Superman is a response on their part to what they saw happening in Germany at the time. Right. But over time, the overall archetype has moved away from Samsung

Toward Apollo slash Zeus but mostly Apollo. Oh, wow, okay. Do you think Samsung because I'm a big believer that the Mediterranean is all the same thing Which I is I paint with broad brushes because it saves time But like you have a lot of heroes in the Mediterranean culture. I'm going to just call it that. Whether they're Hebrew or Roman or Greek or archivian or... You never are Canadian. Yeah. Or Carthaginian. And they all tend to have the same basic beats in their stories. Do you think that Samson in some ways is a Hebrew response to Apollo, or that Apollo was in some ways a Greek response to? Well, no, because the Minoans have been around since 8000. So I'm going to say Apollo is really... Here's what I'm going to say. I don't think he's not... Samson, the beats of Samson's story, are much closer to the beats of Heracles.

Okay, gotcha. And the theme that is hammered on, over and over and over again, with Samson specifically, is the covenant with the one God. All right. Is a question I had because I find similarities between... I mean, yeah, no, it's meaningful because we're talking about super heroic figures.

We're talking about semi-govenity. Yeah, we're talking about archetypes, so it makes sense. But I think in my own, back at thumbnail analysis, I think Samson would map much better onto Heracles in that way because everything Heracles was doing was to prove his worthiness in the sight of Zeus, his father, Samson gained strength through his faith in Yahweh. Okay. You know, it's, it's, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

It's kind of like, Romulus and Remus are the Roman response to Moses. Yeah. You know, Etappis and Achilles, you have, you've got two ankle injuries and then, you know, Jesus gets spiked through the feet. Like there is something about being injured in the foot and being a tragic hero.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Huh. Interesting. Yeah, and so, like, I find it just like that. Just brought up. Yeah.

Not something that you thought of, or I'm just way off. No, just that particularly the parallel with edipus had to encourage me. Yeah, yeah. So that's okay. But anyway, okay, so that's soups. Okay. So that's that's soups.

Okay, cool. So we've got Apollo. Batman. Okay, Batman. Let me, let me think. Batman. Lives in a dark, oh, okay. I think I've got it I think I've got Batman, but I want to hear it. Okay. Yeah, okay. Batman is Hades. I was right. Alright. Yeah

But wait you say but wait But wait that's his mortal. He is mortal But but is he though? No, he's fucking ageless. Let's Well, one. But here's the deal. His parents get killed every 10 years. If we look at Batman right now, the movie they were stepping out of, quite probably, was Space Jam.

Yeah, no, you're not. You know? Communically, he's younger than us, which fucking sucks. Yeah. Jesus. He's you know younger than us wish fucking sucks. Yeah Jesus So so you know, he's he's explicitly stated to be it gets harped on all the time that you know He's he doesn't have powers. He doesn't have power. He doesn't have powers But he is superlative in every way. He's an Olympic level gymnast master martial artist

He's explicitly stated to be the world's greatest detective and he's an absolute Determinator who is utterly relentless and monomaniacally focused. Now, I would say that Hades also doesn't really have powers so much as he's a steward of his realm. And Batman is that for Gotham. And Hades is keeping people in his realm because that's where they belong and trying to keep interlopers out and that man and i'm maintaining maintaining order maintaining order over the kingdom of the dead does that make robin persephone

that is fucked up but it's not wrong i mean i think i wouldn't have to pay attention to the gender. Yeah, I was going to go with with catwoman Because the thing is because here's the deal Persephone with him Yeah, Persephone was feared by the Greeks good point as the queen of the underworld. Yeah So and Hades is the only Greek god who's loyal to his wife to a fire call. Yeah.

Well, I mean, there's a great, there's, there are, there are several web comic series going on right now that, that, that take a modern look at the relationship between Persephone and Hades. And, and they're, they're wonderful. Oh, nice. They're way too much fun. Nice. One of them, you'd appreciate the title of one of them,

Punderworld. Oh. I like it. And then, yeah, any other one is Laura Olympus, which I recommend. Look for both of my highly recommended going out, reading them. They're amazing.

OK. But so you spoke about, you know, Hades having his realm. Right. Uh, furthering my argument about Batman essentially being a God. It's true that he's focused on Gotham, but he's still right up getting sucked into all the JLA's at global and cosmic scale bullshit. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And like, and like, it's always like, I really don't want to be here. Can I just, can I go home? Cosmic scale bullshit. Oh yeah. Yeah. And like, and like, it's always, like, I really don't want to be here. Can I just, can I go home? Yeah. Yeah. I'm here because I'm here because literally I'm the smartest guy in the room. And you need me. But like, as soon as we're done, I'm, I'm going back to Wayne Manor.

Yeah. To do another 100 push ups, then I'm going back out in the streets. Like, I'm like, why am I here? Sure. So, and I should point out that multiple what if kind of stories and timelines that you see multiverse Batman has been granted the godlike power of a lantern ring. Oh. And that has always ended badly, remarkably badly, because Batman is too powerful.

Right, okay. Because it's all based on willpower, imagination. Imagination and powered by it's what you do with it is based on your imagination and your creativity. Right. And then the raw power you have is based on your willpower. How Jordan must be such a goddamn tool then because I remember seeing So many like giant fists and huge swords. It's like what what the shit is this?

But yeah, okay is 50's 60's but okay, so Batman is Hades okay and you're saying that cat woman would be Persephone not Robin. Yeah, okay Robin might be Cerberus, Careberus. Oh, okay. I would think Alfred would be Careberus. Oh, that's better. I like that. So I don't know if you know this, the word Careberus comes from a Greek word that means spot. Yeah. In underworldworld it should be noted Kerberus is portrayed as being a three-headed Dalmatian. Oh adorable and There's and there's a one a one frame comic of Persephone down on on her knees with Kerberus in front of her and she's she's scratching one head and Padding another head and the third head of Kerberus is lying on the floor whimpering

and she has this panic look on her face. You can tell she's talking to the 80s. She's like, I don't have enough power. Mm-hmm is a bottomless fortune Go on he uses the god of wealth. No, that's Hermes No Hermes the god of commerce, but that doesn't mean wealth Hades is the god well because he's the God of the underworld, and that's where gold comes from.

And he keeps getting two pennies for every person. It comes with a gun. Yeah. And what is Batman's real superpower other than I have all the money in the fucking world, right? He was king of the underworld, gold and all gemstones were his property. Also, he is the Batman is the night two superman's day.

He's brooding gloomy, troubled melancholic. His sanctum is literally underground in a cave. Although he's part of the JLA, there's a recurring theme of him being an outsider, separate partly by choice. Why the fuck am I here? And partly because he's so brooding and fucking spooky. Yeah, only soups. It's ever Superman is the only one ever gets called out as being his friend, the rest of

the JLA or JLA or allies or even tools for Batman. Okay. And Hades was a judge and overseer of the punishments of sinners like Cisophus and Tantilus. Superman. Superman operates from a place of being a champion of those weaker than himself. Batman is a vigilante, a deliverer of punishment to sinners and crooks. He's appellonian in that he enforces and reinforces order, but where soups and boy scout writ large, bats is acting explicitly out of revenge.

That's true, yeah. Both of these heroes have their roots in the depression, but Cain and Finger threw him up against mobsters and corrupt officials, acting out the revenge fantasies of an audience who'd seen the vast corruption that happened in her prohibition, and were suffering through a depression caused by the runaway greed of untouchable elites. So the wish fulfillment involved in Batman is we're going to make them pay. The wishful filament in Superman is I'm going to be invulnerable and I'm going to be able to protect the people I couldn't protect.

And so, I mean, that's where that dichotomy comes from. And over time, that differentiation, the light and the dark and everything, has I think become more and more pronounced as the short hand of who these characters are has become more developed If that makes sense. Yeah, I think so. You know And I also want to take a moment here You know that when I when I talked about Batman's creators. I made sure to mention Kane and Finger. Yes Because with Superman, we always hear about Seagal and Schuster, right, until just a couple years ago, with Batman, we only ever heard about Bob Kane.

And if there is a purgatory, I'm not going to say he's in hell necessarily, but if there is a, there, there, I think should be a special place in purgatory for Bob Cain to sit and think about what he did to Bill Finger. I can't remember the title of the film now, but there was a great documentary on Netflix about finger and about how Bob Kane screwed him out of getting credit for decades. Like long after both men were dead, Kane was still getting sole credit

when there is really stronger reason to believe that a lot of the visual shorthand of the character and a lot of ideas certainly for the Rogues gallery for Batman, we're not Cain. But Cain was the one who had all the contracts written up and he wrote finger out of credit forever. So years. When they went to Kane, they asked him if he had a partner and he said,

am I my brother's keeper? Nice. Nice. Yeah. Thank you. Pretty much. Yeah. So, um, and then so that's that's my when when we talk about, you know, DC, I could have said it's so much better.

Am I my brother's finger? Oh, I know. I know. I could have said it's so much better. Am I my brother's finger? Oh Damn, I know I know I know I could have I could have missed that one. I know slipping Yeah, slipping. It's all the ambient stress and no shit. So so Aquaman. Oh, oh this one. I know um he's What's his name? Diana No He's what's his name? Diana. No. I can't even muster the ability to play straight man. Okay, he's the most powerful of the gods. He's Neptune.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He is, he is obviously Poseidon. Yes. Oh god. Damn. I'm sorry. The Latinist in me, like, I just, yeah, no, I know obviously Poseidon. Yes. Oh god damn it. Yeah, I'm sorry.

The Latinist and me, like I just, yeah, no, I know. It's whatever, you know, the real, still everything. That's fine. Yeah. No, he's he's very clearly Poseidon. You know, I mean, just the imagery is all there. You know, in the comics, of course, he's the King of Atlantis, which stands in for being the ruler of the ocean.

And he is a much more elemental figure in the comics than either of the other two. I mean, it's really clear. If you look at the subtext, Superman is very clearly air and fire. Batman is very clearly air and fire. Batman is very clearly earth. He's very, you know, he's grounded.

He's going to go to the mill and collect all that stuff. And Poseidon, I'm sorry, Aquaman, is like literally constantly tied to the element of water. Right. Yeah. And he is, he is super strong. He's not a strong soup, but he is, he does have super human strength. He is, uh, you know, he does have, uh, uh, fortitude and an ability to shrug off injury that's beyond. He,

I mean, he is, he's, he's very hard to hurt. Yeah. In, in, in DC terms, he is a metahuman. So, I mean, that's easily figured out. Wonder Woman is Athena. Now, the obvious comparison would be to Artemis, Brian gonna say it's Athena, because bad men will use badderings to subdue people. Superman will slap a guy around a couple of times to get him to knock it off and get the cuffs on. But he... Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman will stab a motherfucker with a sword.

Yes. Like, she is a goddess of war and the Sathena. But also wisdom, because she will make you tell the God damn truth. Oh yeah, she will get that out of you. Like that's her other power, yeah. Definitely get that out of you. Yes, okay. And then the last one that I have developed

anything on with Stasis at this point is the flash. Okay, with that helmet, obviously, he's a Hephaestus, yeah. Yeah, no clearly, clearly because Hephaestus moves so fast and forging and a crafter. Yeah, because, you know, having a club foot doesn't slow him down at all. Very very large circle. Yeah, no, obviously flashes hermys. Right. And what I want to, I mean, because speedster, you know, the travel travel, the God of roads, God of travel, God of roads, God of commerce, God of travel, the God of roads. God of travel, the God of roads, God of commerce, God of, you know, anything had to go anywhere.

Oh, here's what drives me nuts about Hermes is that everybody's like, oh, he's the messenger God. I'm like, that's literally one time. You know, like, like, it's that old joke about like, you know, you see McCutchen talking to the young man. He's like, hey, did you see that wall? This is, oh yeah, he's like, I built that wall rock by rock. But do they call me McCutcheon, the wall builder? No. And you see that church? Yeah,

oh, I helped build that church. I cast the the bell. Um, do they call me the McCutcheon, the bell maker? No. And you see that pier down there? Yeah. I helped shape and polish everything on that pier. Do they call me McCutcheon, theer Maker, no. But you fuck one sheep. Yeah, pretty much. But yeah, Hermes ran like two errands ever and everyone's like, oh, he's a messenger guy. Oh, he's a messenger guy. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, what I want to point out is the character or character, the avatar, I don't know, I'm trying to think of the right word, and well, it'll occur to me in 10 minutes, but his aspect as Hermes trimigustus, who is a psychopomp for the day. Yes he is. And Barry Allen is the living embodiment of the speed force. Yes. And there is the character of the black speedster, who is death. Oh, okay.

This is see, I don't know my DC well enough for any of that. Okay. So yeah. So, so again, Hades is not the God of death. Hades is the ruler of the underworld. Right. But Hermes gets. Hermes, Hermes, Hermes, Trismogistus, Thrice Majestic is the one who guides important souls

right in a way to meet Hades. Right. And so that that psychopomperal subconsciouslyly still shows up even though I'm sure the guys writing oh sure all series It's like the guys writing flash comics if one of them actually said oh, yeah No, I was totally thinking of Hermes as psychopomp when I didn't like no I don't I don't I don't actually did that but it's interesting how that that still sticks with it shows in in the subconscious of That character being what that character is. Oh, that's fascinating. I

Most I'm just thinking he's the God most worshipped by the Gauls So they have all the same gods as the Greek gods Yeah, but Caesar writes about it and he's like, and yet they worship Hermes the most. They Mercury worship him the most because of Baba-Bah, because they like commerce, they like travel, shit like that. That's just kind of their thing. But they base their entire being around Dees and he uses Dees specifically, I think maybe he might say Orcas once, which I have a theory that there's so many words for the God of the dead,

because there's so many ways to die. That makes sense. Yeah, I can see that. So, but they say that. I think it's, oh, gone. Well, I think, I think from, from the moment we realize, whatever point it is in our lives. We realize that we are mortal There are so many ways in which that

effects our thinking Yeah, oh, yeah, you know that that that that figure in our myth would would almost of necessity have Multitune fix. Yeah. But yeah. But yeah. And the Gauls, the Gauls worship Dees as the chief God, but the one that they like the most is Mercury. And they set their days by the nights because of Dees and all kinds of stuff. And they have a burning man festival where they literally burn men. But yeah, it's so interesting.

How much of that is, was really a thing and how much of that was Caesar being Caesar? See here's the thing. We only have Caesar as a source. Every other source goes back to Caesar. Yeah. So, I'm kind of what I've had, and we know, I know I mean we've talked in prior episode. Yeah, talked his efforts and a couple of episodes we've talked about his efforts against the goals and probably and in that we discovered I discovered the extent to which he was a

a self-aggrandizing propaganda so you know how much of how much of that actually is uh... no they actually did like burn people is a human sacrifice and how much of that what what will play real well back home and me look really good when i beat these guys will get people really in mesh in this yeah no i absolutely agree uh... but uh... the I got to tell a hot story. Okay. Uh, but so I just want to point out that this connection between Hermes and death. Yeah. Yeah.

So go on to your hot story. Well, no, I'm just saying that's a hot story for Caesar to tell about the calls. Okay. I think you have to explain. Wasn't funny in the first place. No, no, it was just I was really hopeful that you had a story about like burning people in Wicker for some reason. So, no, no, I identify very strongly with my Celtic heritage, but not nearly that much. No, no, no. So you know, you can use this when you're're trying to get when you're trying to get your daughter

Into comics like I think this this would be a way to open that door would be to say hey, well, you know yeah, but then I'd have to get into Like reading comics. It's Nepal. Oh Well, yeah, but like I'm sure Somebody who knows as much as you do about you you know, the classics and all that kind of stuff can find ways that there are parallels between marvel and Greek myth. You know, that's not a bad idea.

Tell you what, after the break, I'll do a little bit of research while the commercial is running and then after the break, I'll see what I got. That lightspeed research. You got it. All right, yeah, let's chill. Go got it. Yeah. Alright. Yeah, let's chill.

Go Wally West, young man. Hello, geek timers. This is producer George, interrupting this podcast to let you know that we have space available. This space could be used to promote your product, book, event, group, even wish a special someone happy birthday. If you're interested in using this space, please contact us on Twitter via private message at Geek History Time. And those were some mighty fine ads.

I like to think optimistically that we have multiple ads because multiple people heard our call to action on the last show and decided that it would be better that our children get to eat. So I figured during when it's good to eat protein. Yes. We're feeding our kids, but you know, yeah. I get to feed them more.

Yeah, no, I give. We had sponsors. Yeah, and we'd be able to give them, you know, a really good end of your celebration, whatever, whatever, ecumenical tradition you may follow. There you go. You know, so your research,

yeah, so you're doing a lot eating while you're having an ad run. What do you think you can do? Well, I think so DC definitely the gods. Yeah, but I think frankly that might be why I'm turned off by DC. They're out of reach. They're too paragonic. Well, you know, the archetypes are all, you know, cosmic level, you know, they don't have like one was last time Bruce Wayne had to go by himself of parachinos. Exactly. Exactly. So I want I want characters that struggle to pay their

rent because that's the world my kids are going to go up and so well you know I'm a teacher so but yeah so I think I and you know I I prefer Marvel as it is and I think it's because I really like interesting heroes and I think the more weakness a hero has, the more interesting they can become. As a result, make mine Marvel. And so I think interestingly enough, the gods came, well technically the gods came second to the Titans, but the gods came first and then came the Demi gods. And I think all of Marvel's superheroes are actually demigods, which I think ultimately is why I think Marvel is a better property overall and

Feel free to send all of your hate to geek history time on the Twitter or at Harmony on the Twitter or your sympathy to at EH Blalock on the Twitter because he has to deal with such a partisan hack But I do think- Hold on, hold on. He got to understand, I know more about DC than you do. This is true. By virtue of the fact that, you know, I grew up being a mad, crazy bad man. Oh, okay.

But in my adulthood, I'm with you 100% So send your hate to him as well. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've sent send it all I'm fueled by it send it You know because because like for me now as an adult I get a lot more fulfillment out of Captain America Mm-hmm that I do out of Superman. Oh, yeah. Because even though Captain America is still, you know, a big blue boy scout, here's the manner in which he grapples with the problems that he faces. He could actually fail. He could, he could actually, and he has,

he actually failed in comic history. So anyway, I'm stepping all over your thesis here. What would you add for me? Marvel is your demigods. Marvel came second after DC. The demigods came after the superheroes. So I would direct your attention. I primed you during the break. Take a look at the statue of Ben Venuto Chilini.

He did a statue of Perseus holding Maduce's head. So take a look at that statue. Now you see Perseus there, right? That is a classically, yes, that is a classically idealized male figure. It is. There is a lot of very, very well-defined musculature there. He is a muscular young man.

He does not look like Superman. He is not bulky. Right. Doesn't look like a frizzett of painting of Conan. Doesn't look like a power-leader. He has that classical, I don't wanna say androgynous, but his facial features are

the way that kind of high cheekbones, blush, not again, he doesn't have a lantern jaw, he's not a big, you know, chromagnon, kelp looking dude. Right. By our standards today, he's got, you know, long, long curly locks of hair. He's naked.

Yes. So what superhero do you think that he is based on that description? Oh, ish. Uh-huh. The muscles live ideal for dexterity naked, but for the fact that he's got a costume. Um, perseus. naked, but for the fact that he's got a costume? Perseus. I'm, I mean, the first thing I think of is, is Cap being the pinnacle of human achievement.

Oh, we'll get to cap later. This is Spider-Man, yes. Spider-Man. He's not overly muscled, but he's, but I got there. Yep. He's functionally muscled. He's built for grace.

Percy is stuck to one territory and kept it safe. Good points. So it's Spider-Man. In fact, so did most superheroes. Now, for this to work, you have to take a look at Andromeda, and that is Gwen Stacy, but because Spider-Man is a tragic version of Perseus, she dies.

But he rescues her. Again, Spider-Man is tragic. Perseus is not. But she is the daughter of the authority in the area. And she dies over water due to his failure to get to her on time. She was chained to a rock in the ocean. Yeah, Perseus has a strong drive to protect. First he's trying to protect his mother from marriage to IETs and then to protect Andromeda. He's successful

because Greek demigods are usually successful at these things Spider-Man is there to protect Aunt May because he failed with Uncle Ben and then he fails again with Gwen Stacy But then he succeeds with Mary Jane He is the redemptive Perseus The the fact that Perseus was made by a shaft of bronze, if you remember how Spider-Man was made, radiation. newest, newest greatest technology available at the time of the Genesis of the character. Yeah, okay.

Perseus can fly with his sandals, Spidey has web shooters on his wrists, instead of on his ankles. Perseus fights against Medusa, a villain with writhing tentacles on her head. A man whose additional arms have a similar writhing nature to them. Interestingly, the contrast exists after Perseus retires as well. He's one of the very few Demi gods who actually has a happy retirement. He fills his prophecy. And he kills a greasy as a fire call. And then he goes and finds his own kingdom to rule.

And he and a drama to actually live happily ever after. Spider-Man is forever cursed to never live happily ever after. Sadly, and it's that very contrast. Go back to the nature. What's that? I was just gonna say the nature of the nature of the medium is such that he ever actually gets a permanent happy ending. He can't keep writing any stories about him anymore.

That's a good point. That's a really good point. So, but he's also our age's version of Perseus. Like you don't get happy endings nowadays. He lives with integrity no matter the difficulty. He struggles against the reality that he has to contend with and that he's contained within. He generally makes it work and at his core, that's a very persiast thing to do. Next on my list is Odysseus.

This is an easy one. Tony Stark. Tony Stark. They're both... Okay, go for it. This is an easy one. Tony Stark. Tony Stark. Tony Stark. They're both. Okay, okay, yeah, go for it. Okay, okay.

So, Tony Stark is the prinsling air to a corporate empire. Oh, yes, yes, is literally Kengevithika. Yes. Both of them are hard drinkers, because it's specifically mentioned in the meeting with polyphemous that he has this wine and his wine skin that like unless you water it down to this ridiculous amount, it'll knock you out, but he drinks it straight, that's how he goes, and of course, demon in a bottle. They both have a very bad habit of getting themselves into really serious trouble because they think

they're because they are the smartest guy in the room, but they think they're even smarter than they are. Yes. And I am no man, you know. Right. I did this to you. Yeah, followed by no fuck that I'm Odysseus which you know maps Which maps really well onto Iron Man. Yes So they're both reluctant also to enter into their status as the lieutenant to the leaders Yeah neither is the leader of the group that he's a part of, but both are very clever advisors. Odysseus didn't want to join the war against Troy and Stark didn't want to be a superhero, right? He just wanted to be an arms maker.

Odysseus pretends to be a lunatic when they come to recruit him for the Trojan War. But he also recruits Achilles to fight because he knows they need more help and he uses a battle horn to ferret out Achilles. Technology. Don't start. Didn't want anyone knowing he was Iron Man and he goes to great length to distance himself from the Avengers as anything more than a kindly donor to their cause. This is comic books. This is not MCU. Yeah, yeah, this is not not yeah. He also cultivates this image of irresponsibility and playboyism Who couldn't possibly be considered to have the metal to be Ironman? You know, it's interesting because that's also

One of the ways in which people have criticized Iron Man as being kind of Marvel's answer to Batman. Yes. Because Bruce Wayne does the exact same thing. Oh yeah. Their superpower is both that they're insanely wealthy. Yeah. And really smart. Yeah.

It's just Iron Man is a drunk version of Superman the happy drunk So yeah, okay, I like it. Yeah Let's see where was I oh yes I'm gonna say that again. He doesn't want to be considered to have the metal to being Iron Man Yeah, no, I caught it. I didn't I caught it, I didn't want to grace it with a response. Both are essentially pretenders. And while I don't want to spend too much time on the MCU because this is about comics, I would point out

that he is constantly jabbing at Bruce Banner to test him to see if he can get the wrathful hulk to come out. Both use technology and intelligence as their main weapons. Odysseus is also an excellent bowman. He's also one of the main advisors of the Greek leadership during Trojan War. Like I said, he thinks outside of the box a number of times and serves as the brains, whereas Ajax serves as the brawn. And as the cool headedness, whereas Achilles provides the rage.

From the very beginning Odysseus shows an affinity for using tools and technology to get his way. He ties uneven animals to a plow to demonstrate that he's a lunatic. Because that'll fuck up your plow. He uses a horn to get out of killies. He gathers armor, arrows, weapons, etc. To help outfit other fighters for the Greeks, including Achilles' armor and Hercules' arrows for Neo-Potolomus. Iron Man regularly updates his own armor, but he also provides the Avengers with their own jet, the Quinn jet, right?

They have state of the art automated mansion, complete with a high tech training defense system, et cetera, et cetera. And his very origin is where he's forced against his will to create weapons for other people to use. All right. Yeah. Both of them, frankly, are one-note ponies. Ponies. All right. Yeah, both of them that's frankly are one no ponies ponies

Yeah, yeah, oh this is is Am we have yeah, have we have we mentioned yet anywhere on the series you know that that There are basically two two figures In in all of history or popular culture That you actually kind of have a hate hard on against. One of them is Ronald Reagan, who we've discussed in the other one is Tony Stark.

It's true. It's very true. Like, I just think, you know, in the moment that you're bringing up this, oh yeah, you're both one to a pony. It's like, I think it should be pointed out that you have a little bit of an ax to grind here. Probably, probably. And former guests of the show, Tim, the comic book writer would certainly

be yelling at me right now. But look at Odysseus, right? What's his main trick for getting into Troy? Hide guys in the belly of a giant beast. Yeah. Okay. Trojan horse, right? But then to get out of the cave with Pauli Femus,

hide guys near the belly of a giant beast. He constructs wicker work so they can hide under the giant sheep. His only trick is let's hide under the belly of things. And I was like, wow, he's fucking clever. It's like, well, for back then, that was clever. But really, it's just one thing. You know, I feel, I feel almost like I ought to try to come up with some kind of counter-event for that. But good luck. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Iron man. Yeah. See you guys. His trick is his armor. It's always his armor. Whether he's fighting a distant warlord with

mystical rings or a giant dragon or a Russian spy, it's his armor. Sometimes it has a nose, sometimes it has roller skates, but no matter what, it's his arm. Sometimes he plugs it into the wall to recharge the battery with no grounding prong. I'm just like, what the show? Just a two pronger. He doesn't even like he used for a desk fan. He doesn't, yeah. Yeah, he doesn't do much else. He just, he's the armor guy.

Both of them, both of them are distant romantics from those they love. Odiasis reluctantly leaves Penelope. So that's actually different from Stark, but the effect is roughly the same. He spends 20 years from the one that he loves bouncing around to different women on the way back, including Cersei and the sirens and finally getting back to Penelope. Stark is too afraid to commit to anyone whom he loves. His ex's gallery almost exceeds his rogues gallery and sometimes there's overlap. Almost. Yeah. He has a woman with whom he feels the closest connection, but with whom he never really has a sexual or a romantic

relationship, pepper pots. I know that they get it on a few different times in the 2000s, but the original story keeps their love as a platonic love. However, she is a constant forum, which he tries to get back to her. She ends up marrying happy in the comics. Both of them are 2 damn clever for their own good, like you said, and both have trust issues that end up hurting their efforts otherwise. Odysseus gets help from all sorts of folks, but ends up not sharing the information with his comrades. The result is that they get shut up in the cave with polyfamous, and he falls asleep, and then Odysseus's men undo all the progress that they made by opening the bag of winds from Iolus. Right? So when they're going back, right? Neither one is known for their physical

prowess, but they're able to hang with the big boys as a result of their mental prowess. Similar to your Batman. Here it's interesting that both of them end up being pretty solid athletes though. Odysseus fights to a draw with Ajax in a wrestling contest and beats another man at a foot race. He also had a bow which nobody else can spring and he's an expert marksman. Tony Stark grows into a stronger body, which is always hampered by his heart, condition, and his alcoholism, but he does begin training out of armor with the more marshly adept adventures to make him a more formidable opponent. And I think it should be pointed out in the case of Odysseus,

specifically, that most of the sources we have in regard to Odysseus are Homeric. Yes. And the audience for whom Homer was composing and performing were the warrior kings of the accans. Right. For whom, okay, this guy is a guy, a guy, a hero, but even as a guy, a hero, he still needs to be a warrior.

Yes. And so based on context of the times, Odysseus, there's a great science fiction trilogy in which Odysseus or a quantum clone, it's weird. But anyway, Odysseus shows up as a character. And, you know, we think of him as being this, you know, he gets by on on cleverness and sideways thinking. And he solidly kicks the shit out of everybody else in the book because they're all soft moderns and he's a Bronze Age Greek warrior.

Right. Yeah. So when we talk about, you know, you know, not being much of a physical specimen, I think I think there needs to be, you know, an asterisk. For his time. Yeah. Yeah. For his time. So my next one is. Compared to AJAX. Right. You know, come on.

My next one is Achilles. Jay. Hulk. Cap. Hulk. Hulk. Thoroughly not Achilles. It's a strong race personified.

Yeah. Yeah. Hulk is what happens when you make Bruce Banner angry. His strength increases with his rage to the point where the Hulk is the strongest there is. Achilles is prone to rage, especially if he ever feels slided. When he's enraged, he even fights the God of the freaking river who objects to him killing so many men that it choked the river. Zeus has to slow down Achilles so that he doesn't sacked Troy all by himself, hunting down Hector. Yep. At least two different gods come to him and directly tell him to rage less hotly. Yeah.

The first two lines of the Iliad, Singo goddess, the anger of Achilles, son of Pellius, that brought countless ills upon the Acans. Many a brave soul did it send herring down to Hades, and many a hero did it yield a prey to dogs and vultures. For so were the councils of Jove fulfilled from that day on which the son of Atreus, King of Men, and Greater Achilles first fell out with one another. So the whole point of the Iliad is like Achilles is a dick. That's basically the subtitle. Achilles has no shell. Yeah.

When Achilles is the dark side of a Gryffindor. Yeah. When he kills Hector, Hector begs him to treat his body with respect. Achilles refuses citing his rage again. Achilles, you wouldn't like him when he's angry. Hulk leaves the Avengers almost as quickly as he joined them because he doesn't feel respected by them. Which, that's Achilles staying in his tent. You're refused to fight alongside the Greeks under Agamemnon during the Trojan War over a slight

to his honor. Hulk overreacts two things in his Hulk state. He mostly just wants to be left alone to do his own thing. And when he isn't, he breaks everything always. He destroyed an entire town in New Mexico. He wrecks entire regiments of the army sent after him by General Ross. A kill he didn't just kill Hector. He defiled his corpse on purpose, dragging it three times around Troy but were taking the body back to his own tent to brood and deny Hector's family the burial rights, which leads to the old joke of Hector and the streets, Paris and the Sheets. Don't tell me it's too soon.

You know, it forever will be. Yeah, too soon. That's why this is a timeless tale. Hulk is the strongest there is, and so is Achilles in the Iliad, and Hulk is constantly beset by those who are smarter than he is, who are manipulating him and trying to hurt him. General Ross is always trying to catch him. Leader is one of his main foils.

He's easily manipulated into violence by Loki in the very first issue of the Avengers, and Achilles is attricked by Odysseus into fighting the Trojan War by a horn. He's again manipulated by his mother and the gods, whom Agamemnon has secured the guarantee of victory from by killing a Iffiggenia, I can never say in her name right. If Virginia, if Virginia, sorry, the Latinist and me wants to make it all a hard G. Yeah. Yeah. Now Hulk has Rick Jones.

Yes. Achilles has Patroclus. Rick Jones is the one person whom Hulk values. Betty Ross is actually more valued by Bruce Banner than by the Hulk. Yeah, Rick is one of the few people who can actually calm down the Hulk and is one of the few who looks out for the Hulk. And he's one of the very few whom Hulk will actively seek to protect despite all his rage. I'm not going gonna do that. Okay, don't worry.

Achilles has Patroclus, his beloved Patroclus, to whom he is more loyal to than anyone else. And when he's killed, it's fucking over for anyone else. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Ready for, ready for diamities? Yeah. All right, so I diamities? Yeah. All right. So I don't know if you say diamities or diametes, but I say diametes.

A lot of folks are going to claim that Hawkeye is Balephron. I'm going to say he's diametes. Oh, so I can say it. Yeah. Okay. A lot of people will claim Balephron because archery, distance shooting, it's in and whatnot and that's totally valid, but that's the only method of the fight, not the man in the fight.

Okay. So you're not talking about the guy, you're talking about the way he fights. Well, I mean, fuck, you could say Odysseus would be Hawkeye if it was about a bow. Hawkeye is forever fighting above his weight class. He went into the secret wars with a bunch of arrows and a bow, where the beyonder took everybody away, and he was there, and he had arrows and a bow.

And when he ran out of arrows, he grabbed sticks and made more. He just starts making, he runs out of trick arrows, and they're like, what are you doing? He's like, I'm making arrows. And they're like, why? He's like, because for me, this is the same as like a 45 slug. I don't know what you got, but this is all I got. More importantly, he and Diomites have similar origins. Both have relatively fatherless pasts.

Both started as plunderers. Hawkeyes and the carnival working with swordsmen and Diomites is as one of the epigigony epigony. Anyway, these are people who ran some thieves. He also defeated Nineas once in battle. Just as Hawkeye has defeated almost a very many of the heroes in the Marvel Universe in fights. That's kind of the fun part of, it's like, well, how's Hawkeye gonna beat this guy, you know? He Diabetes was the only mortal besides Herculees to have the ability to directly combat the gods He was way out of his depth and he still managed to wound both aries and Aphrodite

and He does it while keeping away from hubris unlike Achilles and Hercules do He's not the heavy hitter that the others are, but he ends up doing the same kinds of things. And again, he damaged gods. He also earns respect from several other Greeks known for their wisdom, prowess, and cunning. He has no problem criticizing his leaders.

Hawkeye was forever the beta to cap's Alpha, forcing Cap to be sharp at all times while still learning and giving him begrudging respect. Hawkeye also encouraged Cap when Cap felt low, just like Diamities did with Aga Memnon. Hawkeye is forever antagonizing stronger members of the Avengers, especially Hulk when he's on the team. Calls him Jade Jaws and all kinds of shit. Is ready to go toe to toe with him.

Dometies specifically antagonizes Achilles. Ha ha ha. Yeah, speaking of self-destructive impulses. Uh huh. Now, the next hero is Hercules. Okay. Hercules is Thor. Thor. Yes. I know Thor's Thor and Hercules is Hercules. Okay. Hercules is Thor. Yes. I know Thor is Thor and Hercules is Hercules, but really Hercules is totally Thor. Hercules is renowned for his strength. He's stronger than

even Achilles, partly because he's a God. Same thing with Thor. Yeah. He's the strongest Avenger, stronger even than the Hulk when raging. But really it's his cleverness that Hercules uses to win the day. He couldn't have done it without his strength. That's to be sure. But he's clever using his strength when he cleans out the Eigean Stables. That wit strength combo is what defeats the Hydra. It's what figures out and solves the problem that Cactus creates for him with the Bulls. It's what figures out and solves the problem that Cacus creates for him with the bulls. It's what gets him the golden apples guarded by Atlas' daughters, the hisparitus. Every time he uses his brains as well as his brawn,

he only gets credit mostly for his brawn. Thor. The Indian Lion. Yeah. Marvel's Thor. Okay, not Thor of the Norse, but Marvel's Thor gets the same dream And he's the strongest Avenger. He's an actual god like I said He but he's regularly out thinking his foes in the early comics from the wrecking crew to the absorbing man now to be fair

That's a low bar, but still Again, he has plenty of strength to do it, but he combines it with his underrated wits Hercules and Eurosteus is very similar to many Thor vs. Loki stories. Hercules is beset by Yerastheus as a punishment for his own successes. Hercules slaughtered his own family in an excessive moment. And as a result, he has to complete 12 labors, which eventually gets stretched to 14, because Hercules completed a couple of them with help. Eurostheus was never a match for Hercules in terms of Braun, but he was on par with him

in terms of intelligence. Again, Lohbar, but enough. His cunning and his power, his schemes and machinations were what gave Hercules his difficulties over and over again. Thor is constantly assailed by Loki's schemes. Thor enabled or Loki hyperpowers several of Thor's foes. He rarely confronted Thor directly. He set up Hulk as a foil to Thor in the inaugural issue of the Avengers. He does all that he can and all his schemes just to bug Thor. Both of them are given to excess both when it comes to drinking, especially it's their very core trait is

getting drunk. That slim balance between restraint and excess is their defining interesting thing. In the end both Hercules and Thor are faded for heartache by the way and eventual destruction. faded for heartache, by the way, and eventual destruction. Yes. All right. Jason. Jason, not a demigod, but worthy of mention here. Jason is Nick Fury.

Okay, all right, yeah, I'm okay. His parented master of mystery. Yeah. There's a clear patch or linear line, but the matrilineal line is fuzzy at best. His father was a round-owned warrior. Nick Fury himself was in a pronoun warrior, just like Jason. Fury crosses the water a number of times. In his case, it's the Atlantic Ocean. Just as Jason comes

across the Yolos River, as both men come to age, they set up an organization of exceptional people who use a majestic ship to travel and complete impossible missions. Wow. Mm-hmm. Damn. Yeah. Jason had the organotes. Nick Fury had shield. Yeah.

Yeah. Jason is also a vented- And the Helicarrier. Yep. Eventually joined by Medea, a very intelligent, very resourceful and very dedicated helpmate. She's also batshit, crazy, and kills her friend. Her kids with him after using her magic to trick the daughters of the king

into killing their father. Nick Fury is also joined eventually by Maria Hill, a very intelligent, very resourceful and very dedicated lieutenant. And also she's a goddamn zealot who's zeal in registering superhumans ends up getting plenty people killed Yeah, Jason is eventually killed because his boat falls on him

Yeah Nick Fury died a bunch of times, but he had LMDs to take his place But at least once he had a helicopter crash with him in it Yeah, now for the Greeks of course Jason's Jason's sad ending was supposed to be a poetic statement about decay and your glory days ending. And his tragic ending was that he lived long enough that he stopped being heroic. Yeah. That's a good point.

I always look at the comedy of it because he's hanging out in the shadow of his ship which has been drawn up on the ocean. I just kind of picture him with like an open shirt sitting on a beach chair drinking out of a coconut. Big floppy hat on his head drinking out of his head. And then just, oh, what a repaper of bread on his drink. What? Oh shit.

You know, and then. So yeah, yeah. Okay, I can say that. So at Atlanta. Okay, black widow. Blight. Yeah. Okay.

She was left on a mountain top. This is Atlanta was left on a mountain top to die. She wants no children and she was a renowned archer and runner. She killed two centars who tried to rape her. Black widow was orphaned very early on, raised amongst others to be a super spy. She was also unable to have children.

She ends up defecting to America, driven by her love of Hawkeye in the early comics, whom she acknowledged at least as her equal in combat. At Atlanta was eventually rediscovered by her father, and would only marry someone who could best her in a foot race, both women live life on their own terms, refusing the traditional roles that are assigned to women at the time, becoming lethal in the process.

It's also possible that Atlanta was included on the Argo paralleling the work that Black Widow did with Nick Fury, but I haven't found enough to say yes, she was one of the 50. So, although it's interesting because when they mention who's amongst the Argonauts, like they don't mention Calais and Zatesates who both have wings. So like they mention Orpheus, who totally by the way would be Star Lord. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Well, yeah, especially after end of game. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like I'm just thinking about the fact it's a bit of a moron. You couldn't stick with a plan for 15 minutes. Like, like you couldn't, you couldn't stick with a plan for 15 minutes Like you couldn't you couldn't stick with it. You got you got you got so almost Fefee's hurt. Yeah, you got your fefee's hurt and you had to turn around and look back. Yeah Like all you all you had to do keep walking forward just don't turn around don't look behind you

All you had to do was not punch fucking thing. I was like Yeah, that's it. That's it. Also the music the tide of the music All you had to do was not punch fucking thing. I was like, yeah, just that. Just that. Also the music, the tie to the music. Yeah, yeah, good point. And, you know, I can imagine both Star Lord and Orpheus, you know, being told you only have one instruction. Don't fuck up.

And responding with, this is hard. Yeah. Don't call us plucky. We don't know what that means. All right. You know, just dumb, dumb or an aback of water. That's orifice. Yeah. So all right. The last one of the lot I need is this is your captain America. Okay. Okay. Steve Rogers went into the water, okay, crashed into the water, uh, fighting for the society that he was loyal to. Social democracy, okay. I fell off the rocket, okay. Yeah. He was fighting against the invaders and disruptors of that society, and he did not get to see the battle through to the end.

And when he came back out of the water, he was defrosted. He helped to build and protect this society. He'd always been loyal to safeguarding it with his fighting prowess and his integrity. And he is known for two things. And it's in the very first line, but he's known for two things, his ability to fight and his piety. His devotion to that which was Troy and his devotion to his duty toward the gods, both guide his every single action. He is fated to be the founder of that which would eventually become Rome. Daniel starts with,

Arma, Wierum, Quikano. I sing the arms and the man. Right. Right. Now that that's also fanfiction of the Iliad and the Odyssey, but I sing the arms and the man. The man who is known for his piety and duty toward the homeland. Aineas is... Okay. Yeah. Aineas is fated to make huge enemies, but ultimately to succeed. And he goes through every single trial, and only once ever does his faith, ever waver.

And it's very brief because he's being swirled all around by the waters in Book 1. When he finally finds a safe harbor, he doesn't stop working. He immediately goes to tending toward his men So they get the safe harbor that Junos like can't kill them, but she's trying to kill them and they finally land in this really safe harbor and At that moment like all his men just kind of collapse on the ground. He goes hunting looks for stags. And he slays, he falls, he fell seven stags with his sidekick with him by the way, Bucky. And he brings the meat back to all the ships, and he encourages men to carry on. And he presses

his concerns deep down in his heart. Cap has his fair share of enemies. They're mostly Nazis who are roughly as powerful as Cap, but it's his integrity and is a refusal to quit. It's his loyalty to the ideals of his nation. Those are what keep him going. That's exactly what keeps I need is going. Also the fact that he's the leader of the Avengers doesn't hurt either. going. Also the fact that he's the leader of the Avengers doesn't hurt either.

No, yeah, no, it would. I need goes to the underworld at one point. He's one of a very few demigods who's allowed into the underworld. And it's funny too, because when Charon, which by the way, my students start calling him Sharon almost immediately when I taught the I need because he totally is that. So we all picture him now is having a bob cut, wearing Lulu lemons and yelling at other kids for being at the park while her kid is doing soccer. So that's Sharon. But he shows up and Sharon's like, oh, you're way too heavy for this boat. You're still alive. And cybles with Ineus. And she's like, no, no, check it out. this boat. You're still alive. And Sybles with Aeneas.

And she's like, no, no, check it out. He's Aeneas. He's like, nobody gets to come down here armed. She's like, dude, this is Aeneas. He's Aeneas, the armed. He's Aeneas, the pious. And Charon looks at him and goes, no, no, no, no. Last two demigods to come down here.

They fuck things up. One tried to steal the dog. The other one tried to steal the wife. Like, no, you don't tried to steal the dog. The other one tried to steal the wife. Like, no, you don't get to come down here. No, no, no, no, I'm done with your fucking name, guys. That's right. You're right. You're on the show. No, no, no, no, no, no, for some reason, no, no, no, I'm, I'm hearing him sounding like he has the New York accent. Like, no, no, look, all right, I don't care. Okay, the last two

You people who came down here you want to know what you did? Oh my god. It's Joe Pesci. Why don't you try to do the fucking dog? Okay, no, no, don't do that. We need that dog. All right, all right It's Joe Pesci. You want to know what happens? You want to know what happens? We get a cat down here You want to know you want to know how bad things get to. No, we need that fucking dog. All right, number one. Number two, number two, you come down. Fucking orpheus comes down here.

Tracey and his wife had to hear what happens. He turns around because the motherfucker can't know. No. All he had to do was walk straight fucking ahead. That's it. No more of you. No more of you punks. No, I'm not, no, just

no, turn the fuck around, go home. Yeah, well done. Well done. Yeah. Besides which you fucking heavy for the boat, get out of here. No, no, you take the stand now, and island fair, get your ass off of you. Get out of here. So no more you long island bastards. So so he's actually allowed in largely because of the argument of piety. Now the menace of the water is an interesting. Right, right, right, fine, fine. You go to church. All right.

Okay. Look, you know, if you're in good with the bishop, all right, fine. Come on. Walk that. Don't tell nobody just like the bishop, but walk that. Yeah. Don't look.

Just don't just don't tell nobody. All right. Come on. I saw them. I saw them. That's right. I saw them. Sorry.

It's okay. Um, what I found interesting between these two is that there's this constancy of menace anytime they're on the water. So both man's status as a man of singular integrity and fighting prowess is just as constant. So essentially, while they're on land, they're doing well. Anytime they're near water, they're both in danger. Both men are trying to hold on to the ideals of his homeland and embodying the best parts of those cultures.

Stan Lee specifically said of Capna America, although Capna America has the least spectacular superpower of all, the mantle of leadership falls naturally upon him, as though he was born to command. Here's what Livy said about Aeneas. King Latinus was so struck with the noble bearing of the men and their leader, Aeneas, and their readiness to accept a like, either peace or war, that he gave his right hand,

as a solemn pledge of friendship for the future. right hand as a solemn pledge of friendship for the future. So both men were just natural leaders. So I wanna get back to that thing about water. Yeah, real quick, because something that comes up in Celtic myth, which is not Mediterranean, but they had a lot of contact. Well, it is Mediterranean, Southern Gaul. Is that okay?

Yeah, good point. Yeah, good point. But one of the things that keeps coming up in Irish folklore is you have the Fomori, who are shapeless, goblinoid, semi-demonic, you know, and there is a connection thematically that sometimes is more over and sometimes is more covert between the depths of the ocean and the underworld and death. So many ways to die on the ocean?

Yeah, and the Fumori were like demons out of the underworld. Essentially, and they came from the ocean. They all, many, like more than half of them are described as having some level of fish-like traits, whether having big, godly eyes like a fish, actually having fish's head or scale or whatever. And I think it's just interesting that like there's this menace for these two characters anytime they're near water. Yes. You know, and don't forget that, you know, primordial death and all that kind of stuff. Killies was leader of the Mermadons, wasn't he?

Yes. And the Mermadons are dressed like, Yes. And the Mermadons are dressed like fish. I'd have to look it up. I think you're on. There's a link there. But again, Greek mythology is surrounded by water. Yeah. And yeah, there are a lot of ways to do it.

So you're absolutely right on that. Now the ultimate strength that Marvel has always had has been its vulnerability and failings of its characters. Every character has a fatal flaw to balance out his or her amazing ability. Every character has a mundane aspect to them that was grounding them in their superhuman ability. In this contrast, in this focus on what makes

the superhuman human, it touched back on why people start making up stories of demigods in the first place. People need to relate to their heroes who emphasize their ideals. I don't think any of that's changed. And what's the only thing that's changed really has been the emphasis and our ideals. But the process itself remains the same.

Yeah, well, you know, gods were created to tell the stories of why the universe behaves the way it does. When you start getting into stories about, these are what our ideals are. You move away from gods as protagonists and you move to demigods and heroes as protagonists because those first stories don't need to be relatable. Right. Why the universe is the way it is. They need to have.

It is very different than why universe is the way it is. They need to have is very different than why are we the way we are. Yes, very good way of putting it. Yeah. And who do we want to be? And what are the things we value and what happens when we live up to that or don't live up to that ideal? For those stories to be compelling or useful, I'm actually gonna go with useful in this context. In order for them to do the job of educating everybody in your community about this, this is who we are, this is how we work. That needs to be relatable,

whereas, well, you know, the reason the sun behaves the way it does in the skies, because this thing happened between Apollo and Zeus, whereas, well, you know, the reason the sun behaves the way it does in the sky is because this thing happened between Apollo and Zeus, you know, you don't, you need to have, or on that level, you need to have the personification of that to make it, you know, understandable. But it doesn't need to be relatable. I would agree. I would absolutely agree.

So. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, when you're describing cosmology, DC, when you're describing humanity, Marvel. Yep. So. Well, that's it for me. Yeah.

Here's what I would love. I would love for people to contact us with different heroes and different gods or different heroes and different demigods Or just like hey, here's why you got that wrong or here's wow, I never thought it that way. Oh, yeah um, so Yeah, please hit me up at at the harmony either on Twitter or on insta and where can they hit you? Well, please not the face, but on Twitter, I'm E.H. Blalock. On Instagram, I'm Mr. Blalock, MR. Blalock. And then you can reach both of us simultaneously at

Geek history time on Twitter. Yes so You know in order to Close this down a little quicker Let's not recommend books because we just talked about comic books and Greek myths and if you can't find something to read out of all that And we don't know what to do for you, man. Yeah, yeah, there's no. There's no.

They're still helping you. Yeah, so. Yeah. But, but for Geek History of Time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blaylock. And until next time, plug your ears when you're going past sirens. Lucky yours when you're going past sirens.