A Geek History of Time - Episode 55 - Firefly and the Lost Cause Part I

Episode Date: May 16, 2020

Wow. You're gonna like this. Oh no, I'm not. Cause there is no god damn middle. This is not unlike ancient Rome by the way. Not so much the family of circus. Yeah. I did, when I did Mirathe Shelley, I had the same issue as

Dr. Nancy. A lot of them wanted to create self-sustaining farms and got into crystals. I know. Okay. I understand that. But yeah, I'm reading Livy, who is a shitty historian. Because Irrigan is.

Others say that because Laurentia's body was common to all the shepherds around, she was called a shewolf, which is a Latin term for horror. You were audible, lassies. It was just most of it, where you slamming the table. As the Romanists at the table, well, duh. Obviously, Ipso facto. Right. You know, it's your original form.

Ipso, duh. You have a sword rat. This is a geek history of time. Where we connect to Nervary to the real world. I'm Ed Blalock. I'm a 45-year-old now, father of a very young boy who has recently started showing a very great interest in dragons. He seems to see them a very great deal in and around

every place and I don't know where exactly he's getting it, but I'd take it as a sign that I'm affecting his imagination in a positive way way. And prior to the plague arriving in the lands, I was a seventh grade world history teacher and a seventh grade English teacher. I'm now doing that still, but now via remote, how about you? Well, I was at one time before the plague, a Latin teacher and an occasional history teacher. I'm still a father of two. My daughter who is super into dragons, my son who is super into trains, but she's, she's almost eight, he's 10. But now, yes, I'm a remote

Latin teacher as well, because the plague has come into our lands, but I did stock up on bleach and disinfectant, and I walked out into the sunlight today and stowed myself a bunch of times with little pins just to give myself more surface area to get that light into my body. And you know you've gotten on my ass previously about you know placing our broadcast in a specific moment in time so I just wouldn't say screw you. That's true. That's a good point. Because you know not only pin pointed where we are by year but but now archivists will be able to go wait wait when isn't the president of the United States said that okay it has to be within a couple of days of that

yeah that's a good point so good job thank you thank you actually my my daughter started playing a another character her ranger that she loved decided it would be better for her animals, her animal companion to not go on a boat to a desert because it was a black bear, which was totally shocking to me, so she played her character exactly as her character would, and basically retired her into the forest, which meant we had to make a whole new character for her, so I finally convinced her that a monk is kind of a fun class and she's a dragonborn monk. So she's all about the dragon stuff.

So what she doesn't know is that tomorrow they're going to get hit by dragon pirates. Nice. You know, I don't recommend seaborn adventures, by the way, because you are trapped on the goddamn ship and you aren't the one in control of where it goes. There's so much narrative that's bad about doing sea-vroom adventures. Yeah, well, there are so many limitations involved in it. Yeah, it's, yeah.

So good luck with that that you've written here. Good luck with that corner you've written yourself into. Well, we're going to, there's going to be a coffin that they pick up that floats to the top that's covered in barnacles that has a lock on it that they then open and they find there's no way. And you know, they're going to open it because as smart as your children are, they're still player characters. And what could possibly go wrong? Right. So they're going to open it. And it's going to be a very nice vampire who's going to charm the captain into simply just taking him to this island where he can then restart his life.

So it's going to be the most benign vampire encounter they ever have because the vampire's way too high level for them. But while they're doing that, the vampire gives me a good ex machina in case they're encounter with the dragonborn pirates, goes south on them. So they've got a lot of pocket. I see what you're doing there. Yeah. I see what you're doing there. Good thinking. Yeah. I'm thinking. I can hear what you're doing there. What are you doing there? I'm not doing anything. My wife is at the sink, which is behind where you can see me for okay, so and not to worry Did you turn the little thing so that it's on the on the mic so that it's like an upside down heart? Oh, okay I did good. This is where people get to peak behind the veil of our show so

But behind the curtain. Yeah pay no to pay no attention to to peak behind the veil of our show. So. Behind the curtain. Pay no attention to the plumbing behind the curtain. So, hey, I think I hope that our audience will be sympathetic enough based on the fact that we are doing this during historic and weird times. Yes. Yeah. So, just like I tell my students, occasionally you're going to hear my son talk about the fact that he's going potty right now. So, because,

you know, he's too, and so just roll with it and, you know, well, we'll do what we got to do and put it together into this. So, you know. Yeah. So. So, we were talking before the show about what do you call it, the Avengers. And I love me the Avengers. And I think one of the best parts about the Avengers, it goes kind of unsaid that Joss Whedon managed to cram so much good dialogue into so many good and clever spots

where it didn't drag the action down at all. And I think that he's a really... Well, you know... Yeah. Go ahead, but we're just gonna say that he's a really good director. And he's always got a good reputation for being really progressive. So I was just really glad that they used him for both Avengers 1 and 2, the age of Ultron and the Avengers. I'm not going to disagree with you on the point

about him being a great director. Okay. He is very, very good at what he does. He's got a reputation for being a really good feminist and really supporting women's roles and stuff like that. You know, so here's the thing. And this is where this is going to get ugly.

And at the end of this episode, we're probably going to have, I don't know, at least one of our four fans is going to probably want to try to find out where I live and come after me. Because what I'm going to do is being washed. Yeah, well, you know, only when my wife is down here in the kitchen. That's not true. I do my fair share of chores around the house where I try to do anyway. So do I. No. I do my fair share of chores around the house where I try to you anyway, but no.

No. I should hope so otherwise you're using your kids to slave labor. You don't, you don't, anyway, both things are moving on. Speaking of speaking of speaking of progressive ideas. So, but, but my, my whole thesis today is about a beloved TV series of his and why it's actually kind of problematic and we need as a community. I think fandom needs to recognize it and have a conversation about it. Well, Joss Whedon has problematic views and it comes through his. Yes.

Okay. Well, I'm not... Here's the thing. I'm not actually going to say that Joss Weedin himself has problematic views because I think as much as anybody, I think his intentions are good. I'm going to say that. I think based on things that have come out in regard to his behavior, some of his reputation as being a progressive in terms of feminist issues may be tarnished. Oh, okay.

Someone by that. But what I really want to talk about is actually Firefly. And what's problematic about it has basically nothing to do, at least in the broad sense, with anything having to do with feminist issues, and it has everything to do with the lost cause. Oh, okay, yeah, I can already kind of see that stacking up. Okay, so Firefly is the single season show

that everybody adores and loves. Yeah, within science fiction fandom, if you say that you didn't like Firefly, that's a sure fire way of getting yourself like ostracized. Yes. Like, or at the most benign, have a whole bunch of people look at you like, who the fuck are you, man? Because here's the thing benign have a whole bunch of people look at you like who the fuck are you man? Because here's the thing, it is a real before I before I start in on what I'm going to say. Here's I am a huge fan. I love the ship. The dialogue because it's one of the things Joss Whedon does brilliantly. The dialogue is always good. Even in storylines within the series that are kind of, you know, middling, like, okay, this is like a first season TNG episode, you know, kind of thing. Because even within the 14 episodes that we're actually done of the show,

it does have the couplers threath, they're like, holy fuck, this is amazing. And then it has a whole, and then it has a whole bunch that are like, this is really solidly really good TV. And then they're like one or two that are like, swinging a mess. You kinda had a, you kinda had a rough day in the riders' round. Like, you know, I'm gonna say,

I don't think the show ever completely misses. No, I think there's enough trillines and enough threads that if the A and B and C threads don't work, the D thread still does. Yeah, yeah, and and we didn't has a good enough sense of his characters. That there's never anything that happens in any of these 14 episodes that you're like, well, that just doesn't make any sense for, you know, why would preacher be reacting that way? Right. You know, preacher book.

Well, that's not him. Like, like, the character, and that's part of the blessing, I think, of the series only having 14 episodes. It does become an empty vessel in some ways. Yeah, well, and go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say, it's's so concentrated and you always put your best foot forward and because his strength is character writing and dialogue, that's a really strong first season.

And then after that, it was like, wow, just think of what it could have been. Yeah, and there's no, you know, like, you know, black tar alien, you know, episode to, to, you know to completely kill the mood and bring everybody down. And there was never, they never ran into the problem of the Wesley conundrum. You know, because the way he writes his characters is not like Star Trek, I'm flaking, but Roddenberry. Right. You know, and so the characters are all very strong.

Dialogue is always good. Yeah. And so when the plot lags a little bit, you still have that effervescence and that fizz. Like as a beer snob, if the flavor profile is a little flat, you still have the effervescence and that going on to still kind of make your interest and still make it at least a little bit interesting

on the palate. Sure. Three guesses to our audience, what I'm drinking right now. But the thing is, and I'm going to start by talking about the show and not the history that's involved behind it. We've already talked about it because the first note I have here is Ask Gaming for his opinion on Firefly. We kind of already have that. What was your first impression? Like, when you first saw it?

So I came to it crazy late. Like, I think I came to it once I was a single dad again. And well, yeah, once I was a single dad. So I think I came to it in the last four or five years. So I've come to it really late. Or, well, anyway, I came to it in the last four or five years. So I've come to it really late. Or, well, anyway, I came to it once I had kids. And I watched it upon the multiple recommendations of all kinds of friends who are like, you like sci-fi? How did you not see that? Well, I just didn't get around to it yet, you know?

And I saw the Fox network. The Fox network conspired to make sure you didn't. Right, it's kind of the answer. And I saw the Fox network, the Fox network conspired to make sure you didn't. Right. It's kind of the answer. Yeah. But you know, then I saw it on a streaming platform and I was like, well, I washed dishes. I could, you know, I could be watching it while I'm doing that. And so I did.

I didn't know that it was only one season. So we were answered. Oh my God. So yeah. So the answer is I got to binge it, but it was amazing. I was incredibly impressed by it. And the amount of people who were in it, where I was like, I know that person is really fun. And there were several people I

didn't know who they were. And I was like, they do a really solid job. Yeah, what's what's really remarkable about that is, you know, everybody else who and my experience is actually very similar to yours. I didn't wait quite as long to see it, but it was on the year in 2002. So it was like 02 to 03. And I was hearing about it from one of my coworkers at the time, a very dear friend of mine,

who was just like over the moon about it. Like, I could not stop talking about it. And I was just never able to tune in to watch it, because of my life circumstances at the time. I was just never able to tune in to watch it, while it was actually on the air. And it wasn't until I had come back to California, I had come back to California and was in the process of getting the divorce from my first wife. That I actually had the time to sit down with a DVD set and sit down after work and watch it. And I think I wound up watching over the course of about a week and a half. That's about right. Yeah, and just absolutely devoured it.

I had the advantage over you in that I knew that it was only the one season and these were the only episodes that existed. And so, you know, and I did recognize a couple of the people on the cast that's like, oh, hey, I've seen that person before. But it hadn't been quite so long for them to get really established in other roles. Like, for example, Nathan Filion went on to do castle on ABC. I knew, hey, I know who that guy is. I saw him play Mal Reynolds.

This is going to be good. Oh, okay. Like, like from episode one, and of course that series is another one that, you know, had a huge, this is gonna be good. Okay. Like from episode one, and of course, that series is another one that had a huge fan base. Right. Had much better ratings than Firefly because ABC didn't screw the show over and the way Fox did.

Firefly. Right. But, you know, so yeah, and I think, you know, the, What struck me on watching it was that it looked so different from everything that was sci-fi that was on TV at the time it aired. Yeah, again, I didn't see it on TV. So, like, I came to it probably after I watched BSG. I think I was probably looking around for something

and I was like, okay, this would be a good series to get into. So here's the deal. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say, it's still very much a departure from everything else going on on TV, even at that time, even when you came back to it. Because like when it originally aired,

Stargate SG-1, like when it originally aired, Stargate SG1, Roswell, the X-Files, Enterprise, and Farscape are the biggest sci-fi series names I could think of, that we're on TV at the time. And so, you know, Roswell and the X-Files are kind of kissing cousins in terms of subgenre, right? Right, right, right. Yeah, there's something strange to foot and then this government involved. Got it. Yeah, and it all takes place in our world with, you know, it's kind of the science fiction

equivalent of magical realism. You know, Stargate SG-1 is one of the best military SF series that's ever been done. Okay. Because they managed to be believably military at the same time as having a basically space opera kind of storyline. Right. Enterprise, we've already talked about on this podcast. Go go go back to the episodes where we talked about how 9-11 ruined it. And far escape. I love far escape. And far escape is just fucking weird. Okay. It's space opera. Have you seen first game?

Well, I started watching a couple episodes of it because the gal who played Shaza in pitch black was in it, but I think I started that one after I started watching Firefly it was the next one and then I just kind of lost interest in sci-fi as a genre for a little while But everything you mentioned has been TV sci-fi that I didn't really get into Okay, yeah, I have very very good friends who were super fans for ex files as well I was a huge fan of Stargate SG1. I still am I identify very very strongly with Daniel from Stargate, like on so many levels. And so frequently, when I'm dealing with administration, I do the same, you know, putting

two fingers between my eyes over the bridge of my glasses and looking kind of strained. So like, you know, but, you know, Firefly was, I think the first TV series at the very least in a very long time to pull the Star Wars card of used future. Okay. Like, yeah, like, yeah, because, because it predated BSG and BSG was a used future but not a beat up derelict used future. Firefly was like, no, no, seriously, this is heavily used. And the title ship that our characters are traveling around and is literally held together with baling wire and force of weld, right? And it wasn't just the used future, it was ragged edge used future. And you know, it very obviously leaned heavily on western tropes.

And it kind of sounds stupid for me to say that because it's so obvious, it was a western in space. Right. It was much more akin aesthetically to what we saw with the original battle struggle act ago. In terms of the world. In a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you know, yeah, earth tones everywhere. You know, everything looks weathered. You know, only the bad guys ever had totally new looking clothes. Yes. With the exception of Simon Tam. Okay. And I'm going to get to that in a second and talk about character archetypes.

Please do. But, but, you know, it was, it was a Western in space. We have a ragdag band of independent frontiers people trying to make their way with a little bit of starship and their sheer pluck. Okay. I believe it. Not only.

So we've talked about the aesthetic now, but not only the aesthetic, but the narrative DNA of the show was rooted in the Western genre. There were definite SF traits there in the genome. Some of them taken from interestingly enough, from a subgenre that you wouldn't think would tie in well with a Western, which is cyberpunk, and a lot of them from space opera. But the dominant phenotypic characteristics came out of the Western. logistics came out of the Western.

Okay. You know, so talking about character archetypes, Mal Reynolds starts out, he's leader of the gang, right? He is that charismatic, frontiers dude. He's what TV tropes were referred to as a knight in sour armor. He has this outward show of a very great deal of cynicism and kind of bad attitude, but at the end of the day

he's actually a really honorable guy. Nice. With a very serious personal code of honor. And especially in his dealings with Inara, it becomes really clear because like from the first episode you can tell, he has a yearning there, but he doesn't think it'll ever go anywhere. And so he copes with it by being frankly really rude to her.

Right. You know, yeah. And then, you know, and then all of the Captain Troops from sci-fi are there. He's a father to his crew, beloved leader kind of stuff. And he is mostly a guile hero. He is mostly, he makes his way by being cleverer than everybody around him and being one trick ahead of the opposition. And sometimes falling over backward into the good luck of that.

Yes. Like, actually, as often as not, like there's times where he's world weary and he gets it. And then there's other times where, shit, I didn't think I'd get out of that. Or I always knew there would be a way, but I didn't know how. Yeah. And the opening minute or so of, I don't remember, I don't have the episode title in front of me, but when they have the heist to steal the laceter when saffron shows up and the opening sequence is her essentially dry gulching and standing there naked in the middle of the desert and he says, essentially dry gulching, I'm gonna be standing there naked in the middle of the desert,

and he says, well, that went well. And then they go back 72 hours before that, you have the whole plot like go from there. Right, right. You know, like, all right, well, this is all going according to plan. Like how could this be going according to plan? Your buck naked in the middle of nowhere.

Right. And there are undoubtedly scorpions, like what the hell? So, but and the other thing that's important to know is he's a guy or hero who relies heavily on luck, but he also has a streak of, you know, when the veneer of that gets rubbed off, he shows up as being a determinator and frankly a badass. Yeah. You know, he's the character that I always wanted to play in D&D, but we're always like young starting out characters.

So you never get to be that guy. You can't ever be Malcolm Reynolds as the first level care. Yeah, it's just not do now. You might pull off wash Yeah, it's a first level. Yeah, see if you if you're in a system allows you to throw all of your skill points into one area Like no, no, no, no, put me but put me behind the controls of a starship and I will wreck shit. Yeah I'm no good at anything else. Nothing else. Yeah. Like I fall apart in any kind of negotiation.

I can't fight with a tanker's cuss. Oh, right. I'm a physical fragile. Oh, yeah. No, no, I can't do anything else well, but that one thing, I am a one, you know, you can do that. But like, you know, so, all right, so that's, that's Mal. Then we have Zoe, who's the, the veteran, the loyal second income and TV tropes would call her the Lancer. She's

the one you look at who you're kind of like, well, you know, you could be the lead, but you're not. I aren't you. Right. You know, and she's and she's very, very hyper, hyper competent. And where Mal sometimes works to try to obfuscate what a bad has he is, and sometimes he's just naturally kind of a knucklehead. Right. Zoe, Zoe is always the one on his right on his on his on his left. Always, always right behind his left shoulder. Mm-hmm. Always totally cool, totally competent, and always has a plan to kill everybody in the room. Yeah, and she is a, like you said, a badass fighter. Like, he's the bard who can fight.

Yeah. She's the fighter who can fight. Yeah, stone, cold, killer. Yeah, back. Then we have Kaylee, who is a borrowed archetype from SF. She's the ingenious engineer. She's my favorite character. I think I lost you. Oh, yeah, I'm totally not going to lie. I yeah, you will you did. But yeah, she's she's your favorite character. Yeah. Yeah, and I have to tell you I had the biggest crush on Jewelstate. Like, for the first episode or so is like, no, no, in Aras way hotter.

Mm-hmm. And then, and then like, I came to my senses and realized that, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, Kaylee, yeah. Huge, huge crush on her. It goes back to my love of jumpsuits. Like, anybody who dresses practically is automatically more attractive to me. Like, really?

Dead serious, yeah. If you dress practically, like that's, I think why I still, here it is, 2020, and I still like wearing cargo shorts. Like that's not, it's apparently not, no, no. No, no. You're a dad, it's the uniform. Yeah.

So the air guy on socks are just like a good flare. That's, but I've been told that cargo shorts are a bad idea. I'm like, no, they have pockets. You will never talk me out of these. And if you have young kids, like, no, you don't understand, I can care me so much shit. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, you know, and if we're talking about, you know, pre-social distancing era, you know, I can bring two bottles or more depending on the cargo shorts of my own beer. Oh, there you go. So they don't have to drink the shit they're offering you there. Because you know, I know that I know that Bob is an idiot who, you know, only likes, you know, coolers light. So no, I'm not drinking his beer, but I've got cargo shorts. I can bring a couple of bottles of good stuff. There you go. Like, yeah. I'm just saying, from a practical, yeah, no.

Sure, sure. I'm right there with you. I mean, the only difference is that, you know, in my own case, it's been a utility guilt rather than cargo shorts. Right, you know, same amount of hearts. Yeah, well, yeah. And so, you know, right now, of course,

I am wearing cargo shorts as we speak. Yeah. Because again, dad uniform, and it's, of course, I am wearing cargo shorts as we speak. Yeah. Because again, dad uniform and it's, you know, it was 91 degrees today. It did get hot. It did get hot. Yeah. Very quiet. Yeah, I'll claim that I'm wearing cargo shorts, but you ain't see me.

And I'm not going to put, I'm not going to press the issue because I'm only seeing you from the chest up. I don't need to know. Yeah, yeah. That's a question I don't need to ask. Yeah, yeah there. That's a question. I don't need to ask So anyway, so Kaylee Kaylee who who you know the the pretty I should check basically That's the Hollywood the Hollywood ugly right right because she is like that You have the character who is the the sexy one

Because you got two women on the show therefore one of them is the sexy one the character who is the sexy one because you got two women on the show. Therefore one of them is the sexy one. The other one is the pretty one who's not sexy, wink, wink, but is just as hot. Like, that in itself has got to be something to show. The ginger, the ginger, the ginger, Mary Ann, can under him. Yes. Yeah. Like, anybody with half a brain looks at

Marianne and goes, uh, no, I'm sorry, she's smoking hot. What are you talking about? Mm-hmm. But of course, the idea was don't know ginger is the hot one. I am going to say that I am, I think, one of the few guys of our generation who actually did think ginger was hotter. Mm-hmm. See, I have a genetic predisposition against redheads. So because, yeah, because you are one, yeah, combustion, yeah, we've heard it before. But still true, still true. But, but, you know, every, every other nerd of our generation who has, you know, nerd of our generation who's interested in women who I've spoken to Has said no no man Mary Ann was way hotter and like I don't get where you're all coming from like

That's a valid opinion hold but no man. Oh, yeah, she's a brunette. That's that's not for me. I don't Anyway, so But the other the other trope that's important to note with Kaylee, the sub-trobe, or primary trope, is genius engineer, but underneath that, her actual personality is all taken from the plucky frontier girl. Yeah. You know, she just figures out how the axle works, you know. Yeah, and she's one of the daughters in the little house on the prairie in space. Yeah, you know, yeah There is very much a paternal vibe that they all have toward protecting her

Which I love what I love though is that I isn't there a Isn't there a An episode where they kind of go back and and explain how he met all the characters. And what I loved about that episode is that she absolutely owns her own sex. And she's like, no, I wanted to fuck on these engines, I think. It's been a while. But like, and she's like, yeah, so what, big deal. And it's just like, wow, that was, I really liked that.

Well, now, have you seen the movie? Have you seen Serenade? Yes. Okay, so she is the one in the movie to say, I'm sorry, I don't know about you, but I need to get laid. I mean, that's not the way it's phrased, but she straight up says, I'm sorry,

Captain Tightpants, but I need to get played. Yes. And I will say, before I get to the point where I'm pointing out problematic aspects of all of this, I will say there is something really great about the fact that this character, who is the one everybody has this paternal maternal, in the case of Zoe, everybody looks at her as their little sister right you know everybody everybody has this older sibling vibe toward Kayleigh she is introduced or or her introduction to the other characters was them walking in on her

going at it with their prior engineer and then talking to her for a minute realizing she was way smarter than he was firing him, hiring her. She literally fucked him out of his job. Yeah. Which is brilliant. Which is absolutely brilliant. So and then moving on to the third and third female character on the crew is Inaha who is taken straight out of Western. She's the hooker with the heart of gold. Right. And you know, there really isn't very much more

for me to say about that because that trope attached to her character and her role in the series is really not very much more complicated than that. She ends up being not only the heart of gold, but also a lot smarter and more able to manipulate than Matt. Like she's always two steps ahead of him even on things. But yeah, it's still pretty tropey. Well, and I think even even that her being smarter than him, I think can be traced back to that particular kind of trope because when you when You know if you look at those characters in Western genre

Although I don't know if you look too far back. They're not allowed to be smarter than male character on the show because we're talking about the 50s and 60s But right, you know, I think I think they're there, you know, is an element of well, you know, they're involved in the sort of the seatier side of things. So they're going to have more understanding of how that stuff works. Sure. And then we have Shepard Book, who is a preacher. I'm sorry, let me go back a step. Okay, so Mal is the barred leader of the gang leader of the gang. Yeah, okay. Um, uh, shit, I'm, I'm blanking on her name. Zoe Zoe is the fighter, the enforcer. Um, who else who also we mentioned. Kaylee. Kaylee. She is the artificer or she's the wizard on some levels.

I would say that Inara is the rogue, just in a very different... I'm gonna argue Inara is in some ways the cleric? Oh, okay, fair. Because I was gonna say that the priest was the cleric, Oh, okay, fair. Cause I was gonna say that the priest was the cleric, but I think you're right. Yeah, and Shepherd coming around to Shepherd's book. Yeah. Shepherd book is hard to pin down. He might be kind of the monk.

He's the high wisdom, he's the really high wisdom with kind of a weird image for it for using D&D tropes. He's the cloistered high wisdom character who and what I'm going to come to now from the western angle of this trope. He's the preacher where the mysterious past. Yeah. You know, one of my absolute favorite character moments from like the whole series is the episode of The Message where they run into, they wind up finding that one of, one of Malinzoi's war buddies has gotten involved in an organ smuggling ring and he's carrying the organs

in his body and he faked his death. And he's carrying the organs in his body, and he faked his death. And it's a weird, big science fiction elements to it, kind of plot. But Shepard Book winds up basically saying, OK, no look, I know that guy's out of his jurisdiction, who's chasing him, and I know this, that. And basically almost completely,

it's almost like he blows his cover somehow. And Mal winds up saying, someday, you have to tell us, how a preacher knows so much about crime. Right. And Shepherd book just looks right at him and says, no, I don't. Yeah. And that's the whole exchange.

And it's absolutely brilliant. And right now, kicking myself that I didn't write the actor's name into my notes for who it was who played Shepherd Book. He's no longer with us and it's a terrible loss. He was on Barney Miller. He's Ron Glass. Ron Glass, thank you. Who I don't think enough people know what a remarkable performer he was.

Yeah, he really, really was. Just played that restraint and that menace at the same time. At the same time. And of course, anybody who's in the fandom will never be able to forget there's a special hell reserved for pedophiles and people who talk in the theater.

And then a moment later sticking his head back through the doorway, special hell, and just disappear. Yeah. And just, yeah. Okay, so he's the preacher with the dark past. Yeah, I would definitely say that that is, well, given these a preacher, I'd say it's a warlock, but... Interesting. I don't like that. That's not a direction. I would have he's a warlock, but... Interesting.

I don't like that. That's not a direction I would have gone, but I can take that. Well, I kind of think, well, you know, you and I have different cosmologies there, but like, he's got the sponsorship of a deity if he's a preacher. So it's a really easy line for me to draw.

That's a good point, and he's not, and he's not a holy warrior. No, really just fitted with Claire. I can't wait. I can see that. Yeah. So, okay. So he's the preacher of the dark past.

Yeah. A man seeking his own redemption and ultimately may find it by continuing down to dark path or may not. May die before he gets it. Yeah. Okay. So here's what I would like to do. I'm going to ask us to take a short break because we have a plug to give tonight. But yeah, it's going to be a slightly different kind. It's not going to be a recorded commercial. So it might completely blow up on our faces. But do you like comic books? I think anybody who has listened to any episodes of this show

would know that yes is the only answer I can honestly give. Yeah, well at 1120 Dalton Avenue in Sacramento, California, zip code 95825, there's a comic book shop called Empire's Comics Vault. I am a fan. Oh, me too. And the guy who runs it is a man named Ben Schwartz, who is phenomenal. Just one of the friendliest guys. First off, they have two pugs just running around that store all the time. Second, we know that you're going to be a fan just because of that right there. Yeah, because Skurra, like, come on. Yeah, I didn't choose the Pug Life, the Pug Life chose me. But also, he traded in all of our Halloween candy

for comic books this year. So if you find, yeah. So if you find that your little one next year has too much candy, you might want to swing on down there. Well, I know where I'm going. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm also a customer and a fan of the management of Empire. They're a great establishment.

It's a very chill kind of atmosphere. It is. Every time I've been in there, they've had the TV go into some geek-friendly movie, whether it's Marvel Universe or the Incredibles or some other. L.A. from the old 70s. Yeah. Aaron, Aaron, go ahead.

I've done comedy there. Like he hosts comedy. Really? Yeah. On Friday nights, there's another guy who runs a comedy show there every, like, monthly in the summers. I'm not sure if it's still going, but like, such a fun and fun and giving audience like I've been able to do some really fun Nerd out comedy there. Oh, yeah, yeah, but currently they're close to the public

Because damn shame it is but he still goes in every day because he's still mailing out comics to people So if you so if you have a saver or you have subscription subscription or something going on with them, he is still sending comments out to people. So if somebody worked to find the Empire Comics website, for example, or email him or somehow contact the ownership, they could help support this business in this time of need. By signing up for a saver or telling him, hey, I want to get these following issues or something I'm really interested in, you know, sign me up. Not only do you need to set up a saver, but could you set up a saver, he can also give you

recommendations. So he's read a lot of what he's got. So he can find you just the right book. He can give you gift certificates which you can then fulfill By calling him and I'll give you guys the phone number at the end He's also restocking back issues. So if you are looking for gaps to fill in your collections He can help you with that kids books are also always 20% off Oh, it's fantastic.

So that I did not know. Yes, yeah, it's phenomenal. The guy is a treasure, a treasure. Again, he's at 11.20. He's at 11.20 Fulton Avenue, Sacramento, California. Zipcode 95825, the phone number is 9116-482-8779. And once again, that's 9116-482-8779. Throw some business his way because it's a very much

a walk-in business and he's finding ways to get people their comic book needs even during this time of once in a four-life time occurrence. Of isolation and everything else. Yeah, that's awesome. So, anyway, please back to our show. Yes, by all means. So we've gone through gone through Mal, Zoe Kayley in our and Shepherd book. Next is Wash. And we can already talk about Wash when we're talking about D&D archetypes. Wash is kind of that first level character who's like, no, I put all my skill points into

Piling. Yeah. There's like, I have one feet, which is awkwardly seduced female fighters. And like that's the only thing I can do other than fly this ship like nobody else in the verse can do. Right. He is, he is, he is an archetype barred from SF. He is the ace pilot.

He absolutely is. He's also kind of the team's smart ass. And of course, Alan Tudyk has now become this name that like everybody knows, because he's done voice work in so many movies since then. You know, including a Star Wars movie And and for God's sakes they need to cast him in the Mandalorian like Lee is yes, please give apart in the Mandalorian like I'm begging you if anybody on our listeners list is is even Tengentially related to anybody making these decisions like literally I am begging you, cast him in something in the Mandalorian

for the love of the force, please. So, you know, he's gone on to become one of the members of the cast who's become broadly famous. I think he and Nathan Phillion are probably the two actors who were unknown at the time of their part in the series who've gone on to become broadly known. You know, I think the other I think the other members of the cast like people to kind of look at them and go, where do I know you from? Right. But like people will people will look at Nathan Phillion and look at Alan Tudor can go, no I know you it's funny good right here when I first saw

Nathan fill in I was like oh it's the guy they thought was private Ryan and when I saw yeah yeah when I saw Alan Tudick I was like, oh cool, it's wart. Or yeah, from what do you call it? I'm getting it cheers. Yeah, he's getting a raised glass because anybody who points out a night's tale deserves that. A night's tale should have been the first Dungeons and Dragons movie, because that's really what it was.

Yeah, but true, but yes, sir, there you go. Because that's really what it was. Yeah, but true, but yes sir. There you go So but Tudyk has gone on to be you know Duke of Westlton and Duke weaselton. Yes. Yes, who who references the Duke of Westlton? Yeah, and and I don't remember the droids name K2S. Oh, K2S. Oh, thank you. I mean I mean, there's just so much of the stuff he's going on to do. So, but his character in this series is basically he's the comic relief for the team. He's the guy who makes a joke to break the tension. And then he's the ace pilot. And then we have Jane played by a Baldwin who is not

actually a Baldwin. Right. And he is another Western troop. He is the hardened criminal, the sociopathic member of the gang that like the leader has to keep under control. Right. a pathic member of the gang that like the leader has to keep under control. Right. And he's the hardened criminal in the gunfighter. And he's the barbarian of the group. Yeah. Yeah. No, in D.T.

Rob C. He's totally the barbarian. Yeah. And then we have Simon, Simon Tam, who is the city slicker. Yep. Again, 100% complete Western trope he shows up. He's got all the nice fancy clothes He's got all the money. He's got all the understanding of urban society and all that stuff civilization and Civilization and he is very clearly

Imagine that all the words I'm saying now for the next several, all start with capital letters. He is not a frontier type. Yes. He is a tender foot. He is like any time, any reality of life on the frontier comes up. He's the one who's taken a back. And for a modern audience, in a lot of ways, sometimes he winds up becoming kind of the

point of view character. I was going to say he's the every man. He's the Winston Zed more of the group. Well, on some levels he's the Winston Zed more and then he turns around and he becomes the wizard on a couple of occasions because he's the doctor. See and this is why I thought he would be the cleric. Good point. Party can have more than one Clarek. Yeah, I still see Inara as being the rogue though, like if you're going archetypically, she's the one. She's not the sneak thief rogue. She is the face rogue. He's the face, and that's part of the tension between them. You know, Mal is the face barred. She's the face rogue

Yeah, she's the charming rogue The one that the person who really likes to roleplay their characters does that Yeah, okay good. Yeah, all right, and then finally the last the last character of the main the main cast that we have is river Mm-hmm And river is not taken from a Western tribe. She is another science fiction refugee. She's the weird psychic girl. Yes.

Isn't she the sister of the doctor? Yes, okay. The younger sister. Yes. She's the McGuffin. Yeah, in a very great many ways, she is the McGuffin in a D&D party, she is the one who the DM looked at her back story and went, I have the plot for the whole campaign, figured

out around you. Having been that player, that's a blessing and a curse. Just going to say. So now of the main cast, if we go back through that, that's two thirds of the characters are built out of Western tropes. By the way, if we're D&Ding her, she's absolutely the source of her. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, like all kind of weird abilities that like we don't know how she learned how to do it. She doesn't even know how she learned to do it. Right. She didn't really learn how to do it. All of a sudden she just does. Did it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So two-thirds of them are Western tropes. Yeah. And three out of the how many are there? Nine. Okay. A fully out of the nine. Okay. A fully out of the nine. A fully a third of the cast is women. Yes. Yeah. Which of course makes people confused

because they're like, wait, they already have a woman. Wait, they already have two women. Why do they need, why do they need three? Right. And again, again, some credit where some credit is due. Yes. I think it is, it is important,

and I think it is lot It is important. And I think it is laudable that the stone cold badass out of the group. Cause Jane was was terrifying. But he was also played for comedy. Cause he wasn't very bright. Right. Zoe was the one like, if you knew anything about getting into a fight with anybody, Zoe was the one you were going to be like, no, no, we need to take her out first. Right. Yeah, she is not the tank. She is the one who will do all the damage, though. Yeah, she's the dead eye.

She literally is the sniper. She's the one like, no, no, no. You're going to be up on the bluff over there. And if things go south, you're going to kill this one first, then that one, then that one. Right. And by the time you've dropped the third one, I'll have gotten my gun out of its holster and I can take care of business from there.

Yeah. And anybody, yeah. I was just going to say, you're right, because if you normally were going to trope this up, that role would go to a fella. Like it would. So good on him for putting that on a woman. And for including a third, because like in many ways, it's, it feels like, so I had a comedy buddy who,

she always had this line. She says, she'd get on stage and she'd say, I know what you're thinking. We already saw the woman tonight. Wow. Yeah, and she's like We already saw the woman tonight. Wow. Yeah, and she's like, I'm the other woman. And then she would, you know, kind of lightly roast the audience for what that meant

that they would have to deal with. It also reminds me of a time where Star Wars showed me that I had internalized some racism that I didn't know about because I was watching Rogue One. And I saw the trailer, I was like, oh cool, they got nation characters about time. And then they showed another one. And I was like, wait, they already had it.

Oh, that's why. And it was that short of line for me, thankfully. But at the same time, that line was still had to be drawn for me. So in many ways, you have the hot chick. You have, oh my God, you got four women in this thing. You got the hot chick. You got the pretty ugly chick. Then you got two other women who aren't defined

by their looks by the male gazing audience. And then you go just one layer down and you realize you have somebody who is a the rogish character who can get them into the CD Underworld. You've got one who is the engineer without them, the ship won't work. You've got the woman who is a badass fighter, which is just a plays against trope.

And then you've got the woman who is the McGuffin, which kind of plays into trope, but she's the weird psionic girl, so, you know, and so you have like the bandwidth for the male gazing audience member. Yeah. It's kind of taken up in a little bit frustrated, or not frustrated, I sent the word I'm looking for, but um, so. Well, it's somehow altered. Yes. is, is, is, is, yeah, is, is somehow, uh, uh, altered. Yes.

So, you know, and, and, and something I want to point out also, is that Zoe, in particular, is not only a woman playing that role, but she's a woman of color playing that role. Good point. And, um, you know, in Nara, also, all that color coded white, but she is coated coated white, but not like Northern European white. Right. She's Latino.

And, yeah. And so, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a meaningful level of inclusion involved there in a way that I think is important that the no no No, the scary one isn't the big white dude the scary one is the black woman. That's a good point who who who is standing there Not being the stereotypical, you know The stereotype of the you know angry black woman, but who is just standing there with her hand on her hip and, you know, that means it's very close to the gun she has. Right. And she's not the wharf either, where like, we're going to show how bad this bad guy is

by beating her up. So, no, the white guy is the wharf. The one who gets beat up to show how bad that somebody is is Jane. Mostly because Jane is dumb enough to be the first one to run forward at any threat. Yeah. Because again, he's the barbarian. Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't even thought to try to code them onto the NDR types, but you're totally right. Yeah, I can't argue about any of that. So, not only do we have two thirds of the being characters being coded as western archetypes, but the storylines were all built out of the DNA of western storyline, narrative tropes. They centered around the crew trying to make a buck somehow. Right.

Making a buck basically meant some little illegal activity. Like on the best, on the best closest to legitimate businessmen day, Malcolm Reynolds is a smuggler. True. Like, look at the number of episodes in which it's, well, you know, we know we have a market for this thing. We're gonna steal this thing, and then we're gonna take it out to the fringe, and we're gonna sell it. Yep, yep, that's true. Like, you know, and on a couple of times where it's no-no, I'm a businessman, it's a, I'm a businessman who's doing business with, quote unquote, legitimate businessman

on fringe worlds by smuggling right thing from one planet to another to avoid excise taxes sure yeah he's he's the business man is a front for what he is doing yeah you know anybody who played the traveler role-playing game is intimately familiar with this archetype out of science fiction because if you if you played a quote unquote free trader campaign you know that you know eventually that turned into smuggling like inevitably like inevitably because just being a trucker is boring yeah there's no drama like it on a narrative, there's no drama to be a trucker. So of course, you're going to wind up falling in with bad people and you're going to wind

up smuggling. But what's interesting is taking a look back in the 14 episodes, when the storyline had to do with them making a buck, it was outright thievery more often than it was smuggling. And if it was outright thievery, it was always 100% thievery against the alliance, either directly against the alliance, government in the case of the train job, or against essentially the

Alliance infrastructure in, I don't remember the title right now, but the hospital robbery. Oh yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay. You know, the train job and the train job actually has two different heists involved. It opens with the salvage-slashed gvenging of material from an alliance worship hulk a destroyed worship remember they show up and you know let go of let go of the drown you know cry baby cry make your mama sigh etc etc right and then it turns into a train robbery or a train

heist because it's not actually an armed robbery, involving a lion's supplies. I don't wanna spoil anything for anybody who somehow hasn't seen it, so I'm not gonna say more details about it. It's been 17 years, it's okay. Okay. Well, especially if it's for a mean to argument. Yeah, okay, well, less so in this case.

But they went up, they went up robbing a train full of alliance soldiers that are guarding a shipment of alliance essentially. They find out it's medicine. They don't know it at the beginning of the episode. That's what they're stealing. It's medical supply. And so if they're going to outright steal,

they always do it from the alliance. Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm sensing a theme here. Okay. We're coming up on it. So who is the alliance? I hear you asking. I get a good question. It is a good question. It's a good meeting whole question. See, the alliance is the overarching authority of the solar system in which the series takes place. And see, Mal and Zoe are both veterans of the military force that fought against the Alliance in the Unification War, in which the Alliance sought to take control of the

independent planets and moons, not previously under its control. Okay. Yeah. That's getting uncomfortable. Well, I got more. It's going to get more uncomfortable. The Alliance is the overarching big bad of the series. They're the ones who experimented on river. And they're the ones who send a truly unnerving pair of hunters coming after the crew of serenity to try to get river. Now is that in serenity the movie to get river now is that to to the

the movie or is that in the no that's that's in tv should remember to by two hands of blue mhm with the with the hypersonic ultrasonic thing that makes people bleed out of their ears yes and they're in their oddly kind of robotic and we don't really know what's what's going on with them right those those hundreds are are explicitly sent by the alliance and we don't really know what's going on with them. Right. Those hundreds are explicitly sent by the Alliance and we know explicitly the Alliance experimented on river.

We find that out in that same hospitalized episode, a couple of episodes. We find out, you know, because Simon says, hey, I have a target, but in order for me to walk you through getting through that target because I'm a city slicker, you know, I have a target, but in order for me to walk you through getting through that target because I'm a city slicker, you know, I can guide into doctor, I can guide you through where you need to go in the hospital, get this stuff done. Right. You know, he winds up saying, the price is, you need to get me into the scanning room so I can look at my sister's brain and figure out what's wrong with her.

And he figures out in that episode that she's been experimented on. And surgically altered. And the alliance gets decried repeatedly by mal. And to a lesser extent by Zoey, but almost almost always by Mal as being oppressive and there are much of invading bullies The tams were both born in the alliance on a core world where life like looks like something out of a cyberpunk story so wait wait wait we're starting to see Urban versus frontier as well Yes, okay

and We see that a life on a core world in many ways looks like something out of a cyberpunk story, which includes massive megacorporations and intimations of really heavy-handed surveillance. Simon, Simon starts talking about we haven't heard anything from River a long time. I'm worried about or I'm worried about him. And you know his parents both say you need to stop talking about this. This is dangerous. You need to be quiet about this. And so these intimations of the Alliance government being dictatorial or heavy-handed. But then in the movie, we find out that there is a legislature,

and there is something like a recognizable form of representative democratic government, which is part of the agent gets sent after them is because River somehow has secrets in her head because she got exposed to the legislature. She was shown off to the legislature, but the scientists, she may have read their minds or something. And so, you know, there's this like, well, okay, wait, is it like their rule by a megacorporation or is it like their are there are representatives of our see with with elements within it that are that are bad like right? What do we know?

Right. And so we're I know we're coming up on an hour. This we are. So I think we'll we'll pause here to pick up again. What's the first thing you're taking away from this? Well, I haven't mentioned it yet because there's a quote that he says, and then there's also a reference to clothing that they mention. Do you want me to hold those until next year?

Yeah. Okay. I would. Alright. Then I would, and there's also the blending of English and Chinese throughout the whole thing. Were you going to touch on that at all. Not in my notes actually, but go ahead. So now I'd say if that's the point you want to make, go ahead and do that. Yeah, so you essentially have two empires that annexed large chunks of their own frontier,

not always with the willing consent of those frontiers, and who had a history of expanding westward from the eastern cities of both places, both in China and in the United States. And I just find it interesting that we're coming upon that again in, well, that he's blended those two cultures specifically. And if you look at the flag,

it's a mix of the Chinese and the American flags. Oh, the one in his country. Oh, his flag's a huge march. And we're gonna get into the second part of that a little bit as part of the overarching thesis. But but I think it's interesting that you bring that up because I think it's interesting to note that all of the historical context of that that you talked about, expansion from the East Westward, I don't think except in the context of the American frontier with all of those words starting with capital letters. I don't think that's anything that we'd been thought of consciously, except that he was writing a Western story.

And the fact that the Chinese were the other empire involved, I don't think ever, I don't think consciously he ever considered that that was also the pattern in the case of that civilization. So it might have just been baked in maybe. Yeah, I think I think very much so. And I'm going to get into a little bit of that in regards to the American portion of it in the next installment.

Okay. The only other thing I would point out is in his previous two properties that he worked on, one being Buffy, the other one being Angel. Both of those were suburban or urban stories, and this is decidedly not. Oh, dramatically not. Yeah.

And so it's a huge departure in a lot of ways from what he did. And I would say that, you know, they always say work what you know, you know, from what he did. And I would say that, you know, they always say, work what you know, you know, do what you know. And it's not like he grew up in New York, if I recall correctly. And he has quite the lineage of writing in his family.

I know that. But so it's interesting to me that he's taking a departure and this is the one that is commercially a bit of a failure, but in terms of critical stuff, it's probably his most best known thing. Yeah, I think so. Because he bounced back into like Urban and Suburban after this too. So yeah, yeah, basically, yeah. I think he got, if I'm forgetting the title of the series I have in mind, but if you're thinking of the same thing I'm thinking of, I wouldn't, yeah, no, it's definitely very urban.

So yeah, we talking angel or we're talking dollhouse. Dollhouse. Dollhouse, yeah. Because if the angel was pre, I don't wanna say angel was pre-firefly. Yeah, it was good. Dollhouse, dollhouse, yeah. Dollhouse, dollhouse deserves an episode on its own. Cool.

Because there's so much to dig into on that. But he got very, very, very heavily cyberpunk with Dollhouse, I think. And I think the extent to which the subgenre shifts, talking about urban versus rural is almost pointless because it's totally a cyberpunk story and you almost can't have a frontier story be cyberpunk. And I know saying that I intentionally said almost can't because I know somebody is going to have an NIH case somewhere. But the genre relies so heavily on so many things that have to do with urban life.

Right. That you lose, even if you have people with, or not animal parts, machine parts on them, if you're in a Western, you're in a Western. Like you just are. Yeah, the genre is the genre, and it's just really hard to get out of the of the straight jacket of kind of what's involved there. Yeah. So yeah, you know, I think I think my take away to move us toward, you know, kind

of closing down and moving on to the next installment is all of this. again, I kind of want to stress it. I kind of want to defend myself because we're going to go in the next installment. It's going to make me very unpopular with the subset of people. I want to say, here's the thing, this was a brilliant piece of television. And I'm not, what I'm going to say coming up is not to try to say that we shouldn't watch it or we shouldn't love it or we shouldn't want to see more from these characters, but I just feel like we need to keep in mind. that are really, really important. And I think it's only through really having done this podcast

that I really actually looked at this series and went, oh, wait, that's actually kind of an issue. You know. Yeah, now I remember like I took a film class and I studied Buster Keaton for a while. Brilliant, amazing. How come you always took the side of the South? It's one of those kinds of things.

Like, oh, hey, how come the big guys are always looking for veterans? That kind of thing. And so, I get it, I totally get it. Like, it can be a brilliant piece of art and also, it's antecedents are a problem. Yeah, have these kinds of issues that I'm going to be talking about here in our next installment.

I look forward to it. So there we go. That's pretty much what I got. All right. Where can people find you so they can send their hate mail to you on the Twitter, the social needs? Oh, and so the hate mail needs to be sent to at the age play lock on the Twitter and at Mr. play lock on the Instagram.

How about you? Well, no hate mail needed because I, you know, came out standing hard for just Weed and so I guess for me actually there will be a email because maybe I stood for someone who shouldn't be stayed for. But that's at duh Harmony, there's two Hs and that on the Twitter and on the Insta. So yeah, I just I do want to of course if you want to scream at both of us you can do so at At geek history time. Yes on Twitter. Yes. I do want to just plug a couple different things one is Capital punishment has its own live streaming show every Friday night at 8.30 It's on twitch.tv forward slash capital puns

It's on twitch.tv forward slash capital puns as well as another TV or another streaming show that I'm on called calling it in the ring with Damien and Johnny and It's that's I'm on there with another comedian and we watch old wrestling and we talk about it as we're watching It's a watch along on twitch.tv forward slash calling it in the ring So there's both of those. But for this show. It's very cool. Yeah, it's it's a lot of fun. For this show though, I strongly recommend you all hit us up on the Twitter. Like you said, at Geek History Time and at EH Blalock and at the Harmony. So. All right, well, very cool. Yeah. For Ed Blaylock, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blaylock and until next time, keep rolling those 20s.