A Geek History of Time - Episode 85 - Batman through the Ages Part VII

Episode Date: December 12, 2020

And while we have a through line that states, Authorial intent means dick, right? I don't want to have to have the same haircut, you have dad. Sorry, I'm pretty Oh, dude. Aww. So was this before or after the poster and you vomiting all over the couch? For those of you that can't see, Ed's eyes just crossed. It is fucked up. But it's not wrong. long.

This is a key history of time. We're in the middle of the road, the district future, and part of the English teacher, here in Northern California, who tomorrow, as we filmed this, it is Devil's Night, October 30th. And so tomorrow I'm going to be having a modified Halloween with my little boy. He's dressing up as Gecko from the PJ Masks. He has insisted that Mommy has to dress up as Red, and Daddy has to dress up as Blue. Catboy and Alas. Obviously, and Daddy will be a catboy. And he doesn't know this, but we're

going to be taking him on a walk through a neighborhood where fairly certain is going to be pretty heavily decorated for Halloween. And instead of going up to doors to get candy when we get to a house we're gonna stop and we're gonna give him some bunnies chocolate bunnies crackers so nice that's our modification to give him the opportunity to get out in his costume which he he's been like insanely excited about. I'm going to be green for Halloween. Nice.

So, yeah, and so that's how we're going to enable that for him. You do what you've got to do as a parent during a plague. So how about you, sir? Well, I'm Damien Harmony. I'm a full-time Latin teacher up here in Northern California, teaching into the void. And I am also modifying Halloween. Actually, you know what?

Make sure that you please take a picture and send me pictures of him as Gecko. My son loves the PJ Masks still. Last year he was Catboy and his cousins were Owlette and Gecko. So this year he'll be Luke from Tatooine Luke and Julia will be Ray from Jakku Ray. So a lot of beige. Very cool. A lot of beige. A lot of light colors. Yep. And I will be the dungeon master from the D&D cartoon. Okay. Speaking of you need to give me pictures. Sure. Sure. I need I need to see the skull

cap. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. The half fringe wig. than that with that cuz damn. Yep, all right, so but we actually before we started recording our podcasts tonight, I Spent about an hour making a scavenger hunt and in-home scavenger hunt and there's different stations that and and they have poem clues that they have to go and look for stuff on and and there's candy at some of them and and then eventually they will find their their buckets already filled with candy. So that's how we're doing this here. Yeah. Very cool. Which of course means that you're actually going to have a supply of candy that you can serve, ticiously siphoned off of. Yes. For the next month as parent tax. Well, as filler, as this is the way, as filler for their buckets to make them look bigger, I used last year's rejected Halloween candies that they never got around to.

OK, so wait. Yep. Because this now brings up a really critically important set of questions. What all got rejected from last year's candy? What are your kids consider the also rands? Mostly like jelly-based candies, so gummy type stuff. Dots. Yeah, stuff like that.

So bags of things that people would buy, like, bags of Swedish fish. Oh, yeah. Nature's harvest bars, granola bars. What the fuck does that for? I'm just grateful it's not boxes of raisins, you know? Yeah, you could point. Yeah. Now, and now, I say that, knowing full well that when I lived as a roommate to producer George, we handed out little box sample boxes that were given to us by his wife Stacy whom you've

heard on the status out podcast. His wife brought home from her work because she worked at a doctor's office a bunch of samples of Lieber 2000 soap tiny boxes and we handed those out for Halloween. Now my favorite part I didn't realize you were fucking chaotic evil. Yeah. Okay. Okay. It's a matter. So. But I. I was wrong. So.

Yeah, I think you're probably right. But the best part about this is that they were little silver boxes. So they kind of looked like they were candy. And I picture a kid opening it up and eating and then swearing, but the problem already solved itself. I had to think about that for half a second, but you're totally correct. Yeah, that's true. Oh, and like I palmed it, like I did like this.

I'm showing you, I did it like this when I put it in there so they didn't see who did it. No, oh god. I did it to him. We had so much fun. Yeah. Someday, next time we have producer George on, you need to ask him about our round mouse pads.

It's a wonderful time. Okay, yeah. Okay. So, but in the meantime, when last we left off, we had just finished discussing the 1966 movie of Batman. When last we left our intrepid heroes. Which means we only have eight movies to go. Fuck me.

Right. So, which brings us to the 1989 Batman. Now this was a big deal. This was huge. Well, okay, this, this was the point at which Bob Kane really, I think for, for Bob Kane and I think by this time, unfortunately, Bill Finger was dead, which is tragic on any number of levels. Because everybody listening to this has already heard me, Bimone, how Bill Finger got screwed. But for Bob Kane, who is the other creator of Batman, this, I mean, in all the interviews that I've seen of him and of Stan Lee kind of surrounding this, this was really the moment where Bob Cain really, I think, absorbed the understanding of how big his creation really had become. Yes. Um, he showed up to the

premier in a suit with a, with a, with a cape, really? That man's cape oh yeah I know this picture I'm doing it okay and he he ate up all of the media attention and it was in in in an interview about about Bill finger I mean in a film about Bill finger this movie comes up in an interview with Stan Lee talking because Stan Lee and Bob Kane were really good friends. They were they were very very close friends. And so Stan Lee rode to the movie premiere Stan and his wife and Bob Kane and his wife went to the movie premiere of the 89 Batman movie together. And Bob Kane apparently, those of us, you know, living through the era of the MCU, this is really funny. But um, uh, Bob Kane

apparently leaned across across in the limo and padded stand on the knee and said, you know, who knows, man, someday maybe spider-man will make it to Oh, and and of course, you know thankfully, you know Stanley lived long enough to laugh as he told that story Sure to the interviewers about well, you know now. Let's take a look at the MCU compared to whatever the fuck DC is trying to put out right You know sorry My my partisanship is showing there. But yeah, no, this really was the moment where even though Bob Cain had basically made a living off of Batman for almost 30 years, I mean mean, forever by that time. I'm thinking since the TV series, but like, you know, forever and day,

since then, this was the point at which he really felt like he had been recognized by the big time. Gotcha. If that makes sense, no, it does. It does. It's just damn shame that he left out Bill Finger. Well, yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I, yeah. Um, you know, there are lots of people who want to get on Stanley, vilify Stanley for doing the same thing that Jack Kirby, doing the same thing for Jack Kirby. And, and my argument in this regard is, you know, you can have an opinion

about Lee and Kirby. But what happened to Bill Finkir, what Cain did to Finkir, I think, is... Easily 20 times worse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. he is recognized as a legend. He is. He's not the face of the company like Stanley was, but he is recognized as having done

the horseshare of the plow. Yeah, and if you mention his name in a room full of comic book geeks, everybody's gonna be like, oh yeah, well done. Yeah. If you went to a room full of comic book geeks and mentioned Bill Finger There's gonna be percentage of the crowd is gonna look at you like who who yeah, and then there's gonna be a percentage like that poor guy man, yeah, and then there's gonna be a percentage and that percentage is me who's gonna be reaching for a broadsard going where the fuck is Bob Kane?

Son of a bitch must pay so son of a bitch must pay. So, you know, but anyway, moving on, talking about the 89 movie. Yeah, I hijacked it. No, it's fine. It's fine. I just, I think it's funny that you acted the most like a Batman villain just now, threatening to swordcane. Nice. Thank you. You know what, I ain't even mad about that. No, I had my finger on the pulse on that one.

I really did. Oh, man. You got a curbian thurzy as in there. It's on the leeward side of things. Okay, good day. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.

All right, so it's 1989. It's Batman. There are billboards with just the emblem up, right? The marketing campaign for this is fucking brilliant and simple and elegant. I lived in Florida because I talked about this last time with the movie that had come, you know. So we went to see it in the theaters in Gainesville.

Nearest big town. Shit, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now if I remember right, you were 89. Yeah, I understand. I just hold on. I'm trying to do the geography here. Oh, you were near Milton, right? No, part of the state's Milton. Milton, I don't know. We were near, you might have heard of chiefland or Williston. How about, okay, how far were you from Pensacola? Two hours. Oh, shit. Okay, you ran a different part of the state. Yeah, no, we're in North Central

Florida. We were the seat of Levy County. Yeah. Got it, got it. So we went to, yeah. Somebody's, that was thinking Panhandle. Ocala, did you ever hear of Ocala? Yeah. Okay, about 40 miles north-ish of Ocala, I believe. Okay, so you drove to Gainesville Jersey Gaines. The main point is the main Dermain's all the way to you went you went all the way into town. Yep, and so okay, I For some reason I was tasked with the task of getting the sodas now Now, a family of four, you get two large sodas you share. That's how it works, okay?

Okay, fair enough. Parents had already gotten the popcorn. So I mean, big day out, right? So when you go down the aisle, you're walking down the aisle. You normally keep your ass to everyone, right? Yeah, yeah In the States. Yeah, apparently Europe. It's a different thing. Oh, okay. Well, so I was thinking in 11-year-old logic

Well, I can't see where my feet are gonna be So I'm gonna go crotch to everyone asked ask to the screen. That was before the movie started. Okay, before the movie started. Yeah, I'm walking down. I got this too giant for my, you know, 11 year old hands giant fucking cups. Oh, no. I'm walking. And I got big feet. At 11 years old, my foot size had grown four sizes in three months months So I'm a puppy. I don't know how to make this shit work So walking None so walking down the aisle and trying to side step trying to side step people are polite They're pulling back and I trip over my dad's first foot As I'm stepping with my... So then my knee goes straight down.

And luckily dad is a spreader. Cos my knee... It...righten the space where someone's balls would have been. But for the fact that he was a spreader. But he reacted as though I Jonesed him. So my knee goes slamming into his seat. And then I've got these two giant cups. And they come out.

And he was wishing he was wearing a cup. Well, yeah, but so I missed him, but he's reacting. And meanwhile, I don't have hands to brace myself. And so the cups are coming out of my hands this way as though I'm like a super villain with shocking abilities and so I'm holding these cups and they're now parallel to the ground and going forward. There's a couple behind us, a very well dressed black couple behind us dressed up to go to the movies because it's Gainesville and that's what you did

in Gainesville is you dress nice. And they're probably in their mid 30s and the look on their face and the position that they struck, they both had very defensive positions of, oh God, and you hear them scream. As I've got these two giant cups of Sprite and they're just going and the lids hold So What's up?

You need to recognize through his divine intervention right there. Now mind you, he, he, he, he, he did interview on your band. He is there. There's the half of the couple behind your bed. But that's balls. Well, okay. So, so, they're frozen expecting to be dripping and now they're not. So I sheepishly sit down and my mom's like, why were you walking that way and I couldn't

explain it? And it was so funny to me even then because the look of terror on the racist. And I almost choked shot at my dad, and he's just this combination of things in three short seconds before the Batman film. Wow. Just I got nothing but wow. So by comparison, my own memory is vivid, much less dramatic. I was just pointing out as of the release of this. It's a 50-50 shot that I'm already 43 by this point. I'm still moved to almost tears of a story that happens. How could you not be?

When I was 11, 31 years ago. 32 years ago. It happened when you were 11. So the level of humor you're going to approach it was always going to be 12 Maybe but like it's just just it's so beautiful because of their expression and the frozen and the kind of looking around like something should have happened and

Thank God it didn't but just the the shouts that they had and the fact that I didn't end up bridging this couple of sprites. Who just wanted to go see a movie. That's crazy white kid. Who's walking the wrong way down the goddamn aisle? Yeah, goddamn aisle. Just, you were only walking the wrong way down the goddamn line. Yeah, damn. Yeah, my. Just, you were only walking the wrong way down the aisle to an American audience.

Yeah, OK. There was actually, it was a really funny story I read somewhere years ago about somebody going to a movie theater in Europe with a group of their European fresh. Sure. And moving their way down the aisle, and as Sure. And moving away down the aisle, and as they were moving away down the aisle,

not facing people that they were moving past, you know, with your butt facing toward people. Sure. Everybody started snickering at them. Okay. Because, because, you know, You don't do that here. You're sticking your ass at us.

Right. Why are you doing that, man? What is that about? Sure. And to us, of course, facing somebody like that means your crotch is at knee level for them. Right. And so because we're all descended culturally

from the Puritans, that's not acceptable. Right. So's not acceptable. Right. So, but yeah. Okay, so your memory of going to see the movie? My memory is, and of course, friend of the show Bishop O'Connell has got this because he and I went went to this movie together. Oh, he's like, oh, dude, okay, no, look, we, like, there was never any question. Like, when we like, there was never any question. Like, when we heard the movie was coming out, we just knew that we were going to

go see this movie. Like, and there was, and there was no way one of us was going to go without the other one. Nice. And, and we were 14 at this point. were 14 at this point. So this was one of those first movies where it was like we were old enough, their folks were like, right. Yeah, you can go to the movie.

Obviously, we couldn't drive. But we met up outside the theater. And I'm trying to remember, let's say, since it would have been 89, I think we would have seen this at the Edwards cinemas in Mere Mesa. And, you know, the home field advantage? Yeah, when you listen to this, remind me, because I'm pretty sure we saw it at the Edwards cinemas and in

Maramasa and at that time this shows you how long ago this was it was the Edwards five Okay There were five man a little of five theaters. Yeah, and it was it was a year or two after that that the Seven opened up. It was another Edward's theater, but it was the seven. How many theaters did they have? Huge big deal. In seven. Oh, they had, you know, the number was, anyway, I don't know if it's San Diego or a thing or whatever. But anyway, so, so they, anyway, we met up at the theater and I remember, I don't remember very many

details, but I remember going to see it with him. I remember we sat down and I remember the movie was remarkably dark. Oh, I'm gonna get to that. And, and we were both completely fucking blown away. Yeah, it was redarkable. It was, yeah, and, and, and it was, it was a complete departure from, from like everything. Yes. And we both left the theater fan-moing so fucking hard. Because it was in its response, it was iconic. Oh yeah. And that was, I think that was a brilliant move on Bert's part.

So this is the Tim Burton Batman. This is the first serious Batman. This is the Batman with all the gadgets, Batman. The rights. Where does he get those wonderful toys? Wonderful toys. Like Jack fucking Nicholson as the Joker. Oh, he's chewing scenery like crazy.

Holy cow. So the rights to this movie had been bought 10 years prior and they kept renewing the rights. And interestingly, little more than 10 years, but interestingly, no studio wanted to touch it because they figured Batman was a dead brand. Even though Superman was a successful movie, Batman was still a no-no to the studios.

So there's this guy named Michael Uslan. And if I'm mispronouncing his name, I'm sorry. He partnered up with a fellow named Benjamin Melnicker, who had been an MGM executive. And in 1979, they bought the rights from the head of DC a guy named soul Harrison Meanwhile Warner communications had acquired DC and they were none too pleased to own DC That was part of a takeover and they're like oh fuck now we're stuck with this and they thought that only Superman could make the money So no studio wanted to make this Okay, so so let's back up though. Okay, let's let's talk for a second about Superman. Yeah, sure

Because the first Superman movie was 79 79 Okay, or 77 I forget I know Rocky was 76 Okay, I want to say that Superman was after Star Wars. So I want to say 79. So 78. Super split the difference. Okay, split. Okay. So 78 was the first was the first Superman movie. Yes. Superman was a response to what life was in the 70s, which we have established over the course of two seasons now. This podcast, the 70s sucked ass. Yeah, it was shitty. It was

it was the worst decade like fucking ever. Yes. These are facts up to the 20 teams. Yeah, I was gonna say And and so it was just it was just a shit fest and Superman showed up Well before before Superman Star Wars showed up was this kind of you know optimistic resistance movie Mm-hmm, and then Superman showed up and was no shit the big blue boys scout hopeful positive Yay, but also sexy The sexual tension in that movie Absolutely carried it

Because just that that see you know what color underwear am I wearing and just the way that he kind of loped and moved It was sensual he kept kept Christopher and moved, it was sensual. He kept, Christopher, we've caught the sensuality of Superman. Okay, all right. It was just one of the aspects of his genius. Okay, all right, I get that. I see that, but I think it's interesting

that we're now talking about the two biggest properties associated with DC. Yes. And one of them had proven itself as being a money maker and somehow everybody else was convinced that the other one couldn't be one. Yes. And so now let's talk about what's going on in 89. Oh, we will.

Okay. Yeah. So I'll back off that. Sure, sure. we will. Okay. Yeah. So, so I'll I'll I'll back off that short. Sure. I just want to say. Well, I mean, just I think I think when you mentioned Superman, I feel like like we need we need to throw something out about the dichotomy between the two characters there. Yeah. And then I got into thing and then in my own head, I'm thinking, okay, there's also a decade between them. There is. Which is an important

note. And it's a very important decade too in terms of people expressing darkness instead of expressing hope. Okay. You know, and I think that's the pulse that it's drawing on. Now, and when we get into the character, we'll get into the zeitgeist. But production wise, no studio wanted to make a dark Batman and Uslan and Melniker specifically wanted to make a dark Batman. Everyone could only think of Batman as the Campy colorful series that we saw in the 60s. And it was there in what we call syndication.

Uslan and Melniker didn't wanna make that. And there were plenty of other scripts, there were other directors who looked at it, and none of them worked out for Melniker and Uslon. So for, from 79, give or take, through 80 something, through the late 80s, they were shopping it around and constantly being told told no thank you. No kidding, it's not that much time in development help.

Oh, it's astounded. I had never known that. Yeah, it's amazing how close to it never being made it was. But the Dark Knight returns, combined with Batman the Killing joke, awake in the interest. Yes. So again, you have this interplay between the screen and the page. And this brings in Tim Burton specifically, because he read Killing Joke, and he loved it.

And he lied. Why does that not surprise at all? Well, here's everything I know about Burton. Here's the thing that you'll find interesting though. He'd figured out how to read a comic book as it was intended by reading Killing Joke. He blames his dyslexia and he said it was the first comic that he truly understood the narrative structure of. Really?

Yeah. Killing Joke somehow made sense to him. Now we can get into the darkness of Tim Burton, but I think from a teacher's perspective, it's really interesting to look at how killing joke is framed and how it flows and how that helped the guy with dyslexia. That's actually really fascinating. Yeah. And now you've completely turned on like teacher mode in my brain. Yep.

I'm sure I'll let it go of it, but like, okay, I can see that. Yeah. Oh, when you teach comic books, teach stuff like that. Like that's, yeah, getting. Okay, and, and, and I want to, okay, so I don't know if we're going to get it this later, if we are then shut up and we can move on. But when you talk about the darkness of Tim Burton, I talked a little bit about the quality difference particular darkness because the 89 Batman movie is obviously like unknowingly it's a response to

I am play it's a response to the 60 the 68 film series. Yes, and it is like visually it is immensely dark. It is but But it is still it is still It's it's Tim Burton dark. It's not like Christopher Nolan dark. It's it's it's there's a campy darkness to it. Yeah There's yes, it is it lacks grit is Yes, there is it is Noble dark yeah, you know, there's there's grim dark. There's noble bright. Yeah, and then you know And then you have grim bright and and this is like noble dark. Yeah, it is and then you have grim bright and this is like noble dark. It is darkly toned, but it is still three color comics, darkly toned, and hero is still very much a hero with a tragic backstory.

Yep. You know, there is no moral ambiguity in it. No, there's not. But what there is is a very human aspect to Bruce Wayne in this. Now, I would point out, again, though, that it's not Burton that makes this movie, the dark movie that it is. It's Uslan and Melniker refusing to let go of the fact that they want it to be dark. Burton is of the same mindset, but it's these two guys that really push it. So this dynamic duo, who own the rights, they finally end up at Warner. Thank you. They finally end up at Warner Brothers again. And Warner

had been very high on the commercial success of two comics that I just mentioned. And the boss box office success of Tim Burton because of his work with Peewee Herman in Peewee's big adventure and Beetlejuice. And... Okay, Beetlejuice I remembered I had completely fucking forgotten about Peewee being a Tim Burton thing. Yep. And now that I say, and now that that comes out of my mouth I'm like, how can you fucking forget that was Tim Burton.

Oh yeah. Come on. It's definitely got his aesthetic, yeah. So you have Beetlejuice, Peewee Herman, Burton's making money for them. So Warner Brothers is like, you know what? Batman has a chance if he does it. Now Tim Burton looks at all of it and he says, this movie, and here's where it really gets interesting.

This movie is not about Batman. If they're going to be serious about it, it can't be about Batman. If it's going to be serious, it has to be about Bruce Wayne. Fair enough. And that's a huge departure and response to all the prior Batman movies that had come. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, in a massive way. And now I want to talk about Keaton. Oh, I'll get to him.

OK, yeah. Yeah, never mind. I'll shut up then. But so that narrative take, as no, this has to be about the traumatized little kid. It's not even about that though. That's not until they get to Velcimer. Yeah.

Yeah, no, this is way different. So fans initially did what fans always do when it's a Batman. Oh, this guy can't direct it. Oh, this guy can't be in it. Warner attached Bob Kane to it as a creative consultant, leaving out finger again. Burton then doubled down.

He said, okay, not only do I not care that people don't want me directing it, I'm going to find the most not obvious movie star to do Bruce Wayne. I want something dark but with a lot of range. And he went back to Beetlejuice co-star or his Beetlejuice star, Michael Keaton. He said, why don't you do that? Now talking about Michael Keaton, you got to talk about the fact that he was a stand-up comic, you got to talk about the fact that he was always in Zany TV shows or Zany movies

or he was in clean and sober. And I wanna come back around to clean and sober actually. But he was in Mr. Mom and he was in all these movies in the 80s, so nobody took him seriously as a serious actor. Oh, that's right, he was in Gung Ho as well. So Keaton was in Beetlejuice, but like you said, yeah, he'd been in Gung Ho as well. So Keaton was in Beetlejuice, but like you said, yeah, he'd been in Gangha as well, but he was in Beetlejuice, and that's what really sold Burton on the idea

that Keaton had range, because the other thing that he had seen Keaton in, I want to say Buster Keaton, but the only the other thing that he's Michael Keaton in was a movie called Clean and Sober where he plays a guy who Has a really bad night with a gal and she ends up OD on his stash and then he goes into rehab to escape it and then he has to build his life back together and That movie is an amazing movie and Keaton absolutely is tormented through the whole thing. And Burton said, that's the range I want. I see him be manic and crazy and I've seen him be tortured.

He's the one. And that's the Bruce Wayne that I want is one who is darkly tortured inside and still finds a way to push through. So Keaton, Michael Keaton, actually dove into the comics to understand the character better and he specifically looked at the Dark Knight rises. Really? Yeah. Or the Dark Knight returns, you mean? Yeah, probably. Because the Dark Knight rises in the title of one of the Nolan films. Oh, yeah, yeah, then it's returns returns. I apologize. So he so okay, wait, uh-huh. So what you're telling me is the director of the movie, mm-hmm, had the killing joke in the back of his head the whole time. Yes.

And the lead actor, mm-hmm, had the dark night returns. Yes, yes. I'd return. Yes. Yes. And they fully fuck. Yeah. That's that's like that that that I cannot begin to express exactly how perfect that is. Mm hmm. In terms of what it is that they wound up creating. Well, and then you add to that the overlay of the fact that they both said this movie is about Bruce Wayne, not Batman. So, their emphasis is on the reality and the humanity of Bruce Wayne, not the heroism of Batman. Yeah. So now, fans, when they found out that Michael Keaton was going to be Batman, they sent

over 50,000 protest letters to Warner Brothers. I wasn't one of the ones who sent a protest letter, but when I first heard that it was going to be Michael Keaton, I was like, wait him. Sure. What? Which has been everybody's reaction for every single person since that. Like everybody's always, okay, are you serious? Really him? Okay, you know what? Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna quibble. So, when I heard Val Kilmer, I didn't quibble. People did. Oh, I know people did. Yeah, but I'm saying, you know, like I will admit

to being part of the herd mentality with Keaton, I will totally admit to being part of the herd mentality with with Keaton. I will totally admit to being part of the herd mentality with um oh damn it. George Clooney. George Clooney. I quibble with Val Kilmer because I'd seen him do enough stuff that I was like no no let's give the man a chance. And when I heard Christian bail, I had to look up, wait, who's Christian bail. And then after I looked him up, I was like, no, no, I think this will work.

I think this will be good. A lot of people didn't. Oh, I know a lot of people. A lot of people were fucking wrong. I'm just gonna say, personally, I think a lot of people are fucking wrong. Well, I would point out that every time, every iteration, people were fucking wrong. I'm just gonna say personally, I think a lot of people are fucking wrong. Well, I would point out that every time, every iteration, people were wrong.

I think each person brought something to it with various limitations that were placed upon them. But, yeah. And most recently, another film has come out, everybody's like Pattinson. Mm-hmm. Like you mean to tell me Edward fucking Colin,

the fucking glittery vampire is no way you can fucking do that. And I've actually been one of the people like anytime I've seen anybody saying that online, I have actively made a point of posting to tell them they are full of shit because they have no idea yet. Because we have this long and now storied history of everybody who takes on this role being shat on by the fandom Oh, yeah, until they do it and then all of a sudden like everybody goes, oh, yeah, no, he's awesome I knew he's gonna ask like no, he didn't like now we have receipts

And you know, it's a funny thing about internet culture is, you know, back in 1989, everybody who doubted Keaton suddenly fucking disappeared. Right. You know, like completely like, no, I never, I never, I never had any. No, he's awesome. Oh yeah. And like, no, no, man, I remember talking with you

at lunchtime, at school, you were like, oh, this is a fucking joke, it was gonna be so shitty. Like, no, I remember, now we have all of it in fucking writing. Well, yeah. But 50,000 people put it in writing and they wrote it and mailed it. They mailed it. Send it through the post to Warner Brothers saying in a protest letter about an actor playing a comic book character. See, this is why I

understand now how QAnon appeals to people. It's not because they're right. It's because people are passionate about a very narrow view of things and they get really angry if you challenge it in any way. Okay, that's fair. Yeah, I can see that. So now, Jack Nickleson gets cast as the Joker. Plenty of other people were auditioned by the way. However, Nickleson had been the choice for the role as early as 1980. No kidding, right? Yeah, oh yeah. And he worked out an incredibly good deal. He gave, he said, I will give you back $4 million of my salary in exchange for a cut of the film's earnings

and merchandise. Oh, shit. So yeah, so for 40% of his salary, I think he was getting 10 million to do it. For 40% of his salary, he ended up making, I wanna say about $100 million. Yeah, no kidding. So let's get into the cinematography of it.

So the set design and the cinematography of themselves was an outward expression of Bruce Wayne's torment. Everything looked like a send up of the movie from the 1920s called Metropolis, but a worse version. It's like Picasso fucked with German expressionism and fascist architecture. And by the way, that's the line that you'll only ever hear on this podcast.

If you find another podcast that used that line just as authoritatively, you go listen to that, you know? But yes. Okay, all right. I totally see what you're saying. Yeah. It was deliberately ugly. Well, it was not only, here's the deal. It was not only deliberately ugly, but it was cartoonishly Gothic. And clashing in that gothicism, though, like the styles themselves

clashed so hard together that it just felt more and more bleak and they made it as bleak as they could. Okay, the individually. Yeah, totally not wrong. What strikes me thinking about it right now, like if I imagine the film, the image that I have in my head is Michael Keaton in Wayne Manor. in my head is Michael Keaton in Wayne Manor. And everything around him is just slightly out of scale. It's just slightly too monumental. Yes. And it's all dark, dark blues and hooles.

And then you can see a lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam.

A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam.

A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. A lot of steam. the cow will not as Batman, but as Bruce Wayne, turning and seeing the bat signal. And he is, he is illuminated in a very sharp kind of spotlight effect. Yep. And everything around him is in these, is in these dark shades of blue. And there's this very cold light on him staring upward and out the window.

And it's this incoherent, like, whoever was responsible for the set design and the lighting deserved an Oscar. Like, speaking of which, that's Anton first, the production designer, and he said, quote, well, even a quote from him, he says, we imagine what New York might have become without a planning commission, a city run by crime with a riot of architectural styles, an essay in ugliness as if hell erupted through the pavement and kept on going. And that's Bruce Wayne's torment too because you think about steam coming up from everything and bursting out from everything. There is a seethingness. There is an energy that is frenetic and yet out of control and it's bursting through the pores. It is not under control, neither is his torment.

I'm gonna need to go back and rewatch this movie at some point just because now there's all this fucking symbolism that was subconsciously there that I did Oh yeah. Spot. Okay. Well, and then you look at his suit. Now that's as dark as it could possibly yet. You just have that little yellow thing in the front. Oh, and everything else is jet fucking black.

And now part of that is because Keaton is not a six foot four uber bench. He is average height, so it hides that. It also sets off really nicely against the Joker's chalk white makeup. It also had the advantage and added bonus of being really uncomfortable and claustrophobic. Advantage, do you say? I do, because Burton said that it put Keaton in a darker mood overall, which really helped.

Okay, I can see that. And so now I need to segue for a moment. Yeah. So when I was in college, I wound up working with a group of people. Sure. I was a lab tech at a computer lab for University of California Davis. And I wound up joining a crew of people who've been working together for a while. One of them is my best buddy. And so one year, I want to say it was my sophomore year. All of these guys who were here ahead of me decided they were going to do Halloween

costumes in a theme. And their theme was gonna be Batman. Okay. And they kind of all decided amongst themselves what they were all gonna do by buddy, I wound up doing a really remarkable two-faced costume. But that's kind of beside the point I'm trying to get to, which is that one of them was Batman and he did the Burton Batman with the black rubber looking suit with the cowl and

all of that. And the funny thing is he was, if I'm remembering right, Chinese Asian guy who weight lifted in his spare time. And he was a little above average height, but he was also swole as well. Sure. And seeing him, and I remember, I didn't know who any of these people were. This was the year that my best friend and I connected, because we were in Spanish class together. But seeing the other people in his circle and seeing this individual in this costume, the way that that specific Batman costume

creates a very specific character for Batman. Yes. Like that was a massive the word that comes to mind is departure, but I don't know if that's the word I'm looking for. But like, you know, the comic book Batman in the 70s had gone to, you know, a gray costume with the blue cowl, right, and the yellow and the yellow oval, right, basil, as we're looking for in their chest, with the bat logo. And that was,, don't know, we're going to take that, we're going to dial it all the way down to zero. Like there is no color. The only reflection

you're getting is from the utility belt. Yeah. And the, and the, and the Bat logo and the rest of it, you're just getting sheen. Yes. From the, From the very clearly some kind of plastic rubber armor looking, you know, outfit. Oh, and they say that in the first couple of minutes when Batman gets shot by the guys on the rooftop. And like, he was like, wait a minute, some kind of body armor. Then he kicks the shit out of them. Yeah, just be daylight that of them. Yeah. And, and that was, and, and then taking, taking that idea, and then going back to me at 14 watching that movie with, you know, my then best friend, you know, sitting next to me, uh, you know, brother from another mother, you know, the two of us sitting there, both of us, like literally making, whoa!

It noises, I mean, sounding like Bill and Ted, not even kidding. Like, unironically, just completely fucking blown out of our minds by this, you know, amazing departure from everything we were used to. You know, it was, like you say, it was itself iconic in its departure. Yes. So, Keaton, he approached this idea of Bruce Wayne as being a man who maintains dual identity. And so doing, he really looked at the logic of it. And so he said, you know, honestly, it'd probably be really easy to figure out that Bruce Wayne was Batman, same height, same voice and so on. So what he did was he made Batman speak

with a lower register, then Bruce Wayne, which is something that goes on forever after that. He set a standard there. And becomes most noticeable in the Nolan films. Yes. Now the themes of this particular one are pretty simple. You have two men who are essentially freaks. One revels in it. The other tries really hard to harness and control it. Joker's face is actually out there in the open. His scars are on the outside causing his insanity.

He is chaos incarnate because of what's happened to his appearance. His schemes are all appearance-based. Batman covers his face, mostly wears monochrome, and is the secret life of the real man. Batman covers his face, mostly wears monochrome, and is the secret life of the real man. His scars are internal and he struggles to keep them in, and the movie is really about the depression of Bruce Wayne. He doesn't do anything normal.

He literally says that to Vicki. He then meets Vicki Vale, and then he says that to her at one point, who wants to bring him out into the light and he's deeply conflicted and an emotionally bereft man. He can fight, he can chemist, he can detectives, but he cannot express himself in a normal healthy way. And this is where Saddo Masis gets out in a rubber suit, comes from. Yes.

Whereas Joker is, I'm externalizing all of my pain, which happened to just be appearance-based, but I'm gonna externalize it and make everyone feel it. Keaton said during the filming quote, it was a lonely time for me, which is great for the character, I suppose. And it's because he was having marital difficulties and he had a small child. And he didn't sleep well at all during the filming

because it was in London and he was always trying to fly back to see his kid as often as he could. I think it was in Denver at the time. Now there's two scenes in this movie that really, really define Keaton's Batman for me. The first one is they're having dinner with each other and how's the soup? Excuse me? Oh, yeah. How is it? Yeah.

Could you pass the salt? That scene. That's a great, yeah. Such a good scene. Here's the thing, if you ever watched Citizen Kane, okay, that scene is the opposite of that montage. In citizen Kane, they start off so close together and cuddling and loving and pretty soon they're further and further apart as their marriage is dissolving and he's

really into his power. This scene, they start that far apart and then he's like, you know, they realize how far away they are and he's like, you know, they realize how far away they are. And he's like, you know what? And he makes a choice. Takes her into the kitchen. And then they're in his kitchen. And they're talking with Alfred about him as a child. And he's really starting to show a lot of joy.

And she gets him to open up by praising Alfred and that's what opens him up and she physically got him to be closer to her because they're now sitting together in the kitchen and they go upstairs and they've gone to bed and she's a sleep and she's very happy but he's let this ray of light in and it fucks with him so he can't sleep. Now that he's opened up Bruce Wayne does not know what to do and so what does he do? He goes and hangs upside down like a bat. Right, yeah. He has a sleeping problem due to his Batman schedule, but he also has an intimacy problem due to

seeing his parents killed. The other scene that I think is iconic for and notice this is a very Bruce Wayne centered movie. The other scene I think is so iconic is where he's trying really hard to open back up with Vicki Vale. He goes to her apartment and you know she's you know she he asks if he can talk to her apartment. And, you know, she's, you know, she, he asks if he can talk to her and he just is struggling, is before the Joker bursts in. He's struggling big time with this. And he ends up getting saved from getting to, from having to actually express his feelings

because he's like, you know, when a man, you know, he does, he's, he he's the Joker bursting in it actually saves him the Joker's excuse him from from the terrible like yes that is that is such a brilliantly done I know I remember now what you're talking about is such a brilliantly done scene yeah and and Keaton is amazing. Oh my god and and and the relief was what's like what's fucked up about it is the Joker burst in and there's this mode of like oh Thank God. Yes, because this is not going well. I've had to reset four times I've had to start over like yeah, I can't even tell like he's withdrawn He's a withdrawn nerd who's getting it all wrong. He's withdrawn, he's a withdrawn nerd

who's getting it all wrong. He's paralyzed when he's trying to tell her about himself to the point of physically retreating and he's trying to tell her about his life. He tells her in the third person. He says, my life is really complex and then he restarts. He's like, you know how a normal person gets up and goes downstairs and eats breakfast and kisses somebody goodbye. And at that point, she's like, you know how a normal person gets up and goes downstairs and eats breakfast

and kisses somebody goodbye. And at that point, she's like, oh my God, you're married. He says, and goes to a job and, you know, and he can't actually tell her that he's Batman until she gets up and goes to the door. Because then he's like, I'm Batman. And I'm Batman. And it's mouth, yeah, it's something.

I'm Batman. I'm Batman. So even then, yeah, it's something. I'm Batman. I'm Batman. So even then, he's only melting it. Like you said, he can't even verbalize that. He can verbalize. And then, and then Nicholson bursts in. Yes. And all of a sudden, he can, the only comparison

that comes to mind in that moment is all of a sudden, he is, I want to say freed up, but I almost don't know if that's right. To to to he's allowed to fall back on the Peter Parker as Spider-Man. You know what, Jack, you want to get nuts? Come on. Let's get nuts. Yeah.

Come on. Let's get nuts. Because confrontation he's comfortable with. Yeah. Expression he's not not He says totally out of his head he needs a foil Yeah, now you wanted to talk about The context of the time Yes in the late 1980s unemployment was on the rise crime was on the rise homelessness was on the rise and Suicide was on the rise

I hadn't known that last one. So of course Bruce Wayne is depressed. Makes sense now in a retrospect, obviously. And that's the centerpiece of the movie I think, which is really interesting, since in 1989, the hopelessness theory of depression was publicized. Explain. The hopelessness theory of depression states that depressive symptoms are most likely to occur when a vulnerable person experiences negative environmental circumstances.

Both have to occur simultaneously though. So as this shows, a lot of work in the 80s had been done specifically relating to depression and understanding it better and therapy It had become more mainstream acceptable and there was a study done to analyze the American zeitgeist attitude towards children and teenagers with mental illness so When people have depressive symptoms and The outside environment is going to hell in a hand basket that leads to the hopelessness aspect. Okay, okay, all right, and so people are really starting to hit the couch as far as therapy goes

You see a huge uptick in therapy, which is really good But you know, it's it's the 1980s. So I mean, they're only 50 years away, you know or yeah 50 years away from like electro-shock therapy, 30 years away from that. That's going to say 9-50. Yeah. One flu or the Kukus Nest type shit, you know, in the 70s. So there's a lot of shift, but I mean, it's still in, again, living memory.

So this idea of hopelessness really comes in and so of course your Batman is Reflective of that on some levels. He is depressive Okay, yeah, no everything everything scans You know again, we get back to Sato Masos gets a rubber suit as this gets a rubber suit, less characterized by my buddy and his friends, the movie that making in high school, which would have been, you know, totally 100% inspired by Keaton's Batman. You know, so I think it's interesting that the idea of Batman being an embodiment of a kind of mental illness. Yes.

Is really profound. It's going to get a lot darker and sadder as we go through the movies, by the way. This doesn't go well. Yeah. But, but I think, I think, you know, talking about the comics, why are to this? There was never any, I mean, the dark night returns is really the first time we ever see anybody in the comics. Mm-hmm. Really portray a bad man as being unhealthy yeah Like within the comics it had always been kind of a given that well, you know

This is motivated by his trauma, but he is right. He is he is a sane figure. He is He is doing this for reasons and you know, this is not motivated by a wounded inner child. Right. You know, and in the movie, the Burton movie comes along and Burton and and Keaton very clearly look at it and go, no, no, no, no, no, this is not a healthy man. Well, and they have Robert Wall, actually speaking for us in that too. He, Vicki Vail says, find out what happened

on the corner of whatever and whatever, and he finds out that Bruce Wayne's parents were murdered there and Bruce Wayne saw it. And he says, and so, you know, because he leaves roses for his family, for his parents there. Yeah. And then Robert Wall's character, Knox, says,

man, what do you think that does to a kid? Yeah. You know? And it's amazing, it's an amazing line that's almost, that is thrown away. Yes, because he's trying to, he's trying to in some ways discredit Bruce Wayne because he sees that Vicki Vales attracted to him or you know and stuff like that. So yeah. So that's yeah. And so the idea of Batman and Bruce Wayne has the individual behind the cowl, being unhealthy, being broken.

Yes. In this kind of fundamental way, this is really like the dark night comics gave us the first view that you know with Alfred as the audience stand and kind of going no I'm sorry this is fucked up. Right. No you can't do this. And really all of a sudden we're we as the reader are forced to go you know what he's kind of right this is not this is not cool. And then the 89 movie making it really clear that like, no, no, no, this is the language didn't exist then. No, we spoke this way about it then. But like, no, no, this is a really maladaptive coping mechanism for massive trauma. Yeah. And it was again, it wasn't so much focused on the trauma and its impact as it was that this guy is

Absolutely depressed like like that is enough unto itself. He is a depressed individual and what I found so interesting about this Batman Compared to all the comics that came before and compared to all the movies that came before. This one wasn't about Batman, like Alfred's reacting to Batman in the ones that you were talking about. This is about Bruce Wayne and Batman is an offshoot of him. Yeah. You know? Very much. Yeah, no, you're totally right.

Yeah. So that's the... This is apparently focused on the internal psychology of what drove Bruce Wayne to do this Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. And yeah, and and that is that has that is part and parcel I think with What I want I'm talking about yeah, because because that's that's the root of You know where where all of this comes from. And any idea that Bruce Wayne ain't right in the head is a really big deal going forward.

It is from here. It is. And if nothing else, him being conflicted is what ends up being kind of the shorthand later on Yeah, or wanting to give it up, you know becomes the shorthand later on But in this particular one he's depressed now that's the 89 Batman and I mean, you know the story of me almost Crouching my dad and spwriting two people behind him probably eight up a good 10 minutes So I think it's probably good to hold over the 92 version for the next episode.

Right. I've heard of it. And it sounds like we talked about kind of what we gathered from this already. But I would point out that 1989 was a very depressing time, 1988, when the movie was being made, was a very depressing time in Keaton's life. It was a very depressing time. In Keaton's life, it was a very depressing time

in our country's life. And I think that that might be why a lot of that button was being pushed. You have a lot of homelessness, you have a lot of vets from Vietnam, really starting to be much more visible in the late 1980s. You also have procedural TV visible in the late 1980s. You also have procedural TV shows in the late 1980s

being less about the police getting it right and more about it's an unending onslaught of shit they have to deal with. Okay. So I think that in a large way, well, also, now that we're in the 80s, you also have Star Trek the next generation. And what do they have on their ship

that the original enterprise didn't have? Oh, a counselor, exactly. Yeah. And empath, literally a psychic. Yeah, not just a counselor, but a psychic counselor. And then you have a lot of plot revolving around her in the first two years about her ability to connect to people and feel their pain. Yes, this is true. And, and, you know, this is also being the point at which This is also being the point at which Bill Clinton is famous for I feel your pain. Oh, that's not until 92.

Really? Yeah, because he's running for president 92. 88 was DuCoccus. Oh, shit, you're right. But Clinton's I feel your pain will 100% tie into the 92 Batman. Okay. Yeah. So that's what will come up next.

Hey, where can people find you on the social medias? They can find me on the social media at EH Blalock on the Twitter and on the Instagram. Oh, well, I'm sorry, on the Instagram, I'm Mr. Blalock on TikTok. I'm EH Blalock. And I've established another account that's one that students can't get to. But I don't remember that address right now. So I'm gonna have to wait to share that with everybody.

Also, I don't really have much of anything on there right now. But yeah, and of course course they can reach both of us simultaneously on Twitter machine at Geek History time. Now where can they find you when they want to quibble with you over Tim Burton's role within the Batman Ubra? Well, you can find me in these streets, bring it, no. Like I'm gonna fight over a DC film, come on. Ubra. Well, you can find me in these streets. Bring it. No, uh, you're

Like I'm gonna fight over a DC film. Come on. Now if you want to fight me over the role of the New Warriors in Civil War, you will you will find the thunder having been brought. But No, you can find me at theony on Twitter and Insta. And you're right there. As an English teacher, I just have to say that is the most torturous, grammatical structure I've heard in a very long time in a sentence that is in fact entirely correct.

Yeah, I know I used a perfect passive participle about the thunder. That fucked with me I should note for our audience that I'm well-passed my second beer. Yeah right now in our inner recording session I'm gonna be part of the reason that I'm having that profound reaction to that But anyway, go ahead. No, sure so at the harmony on Twitter and insta You can also find me every Tuesday night on twitch.tv for slash capital puns because I and my partners Mark Berg and Daniel Humberger do a little show we've been doing for over four years called capital punishment

So come check us out. It's a lot of fun It is I will say as somebody not directly involved with that particular project of yours, it is well worth checking out. It is a good time. Yeah, it is. If you can restrain your urge to punch the shit out of your computer monitor, channel that into the chat room,

just type shit in, fuck with us. That's great. It's good because the puns are frequently infuriating, but you won't be able to stop yourself from laughing even as you want to strangle everybody in. All of the more infuriating. I had a student tell me just today, I get angry sometimes when you pun.

And I said, are you serious? And I said, no, but frustrated. I'm like, why do you get frustrated? Because I get them. And that right there is the encapsulation of why it is that puns are in fact infuriating. It's like, it makes me so goddamn angry. Get that.

And I can't stop myself from laughing, but fuck. Damn it. So yeah, there you go. You hear me say, good day, sir, that's, that's what's going on my brain. Yeah. So made me do that. Well, for a geek history of time, I'm Damien Harmony. And I'm Ed Blalock. And until next time, let's dance in the pale moonlight. harmony. And I'm Ed Blalock and until next time let's dance in the pale moon light.