A Geek History of Time - Memorial Episode Rex Stem and the Gallic Wars Part I

Episode Date: October 25, 2020

Geektimers, we regret to have to tell you that friend of the show, Dr. Rex Stem died earlier this week. He was a thoroughly decent man, who embodied a very uncomplicated joy. He was an erudite man, with a very quick wit. We were lucky enough to have him bring his humor and intelligence to our show back in 2019. We're reposting both episodes in memory of him, and so that we can hear his voice and laugh with him one more time. We hope you enjoy it as much as we do.

Hello Geek Timers, this is Damien Harmony, one half of the dynamic duo that makes up a geek history of time. We have some sad news as earlier this week in the late part of October, Dr. Rex STEM lost his battle with cancer. He had been a two time guest on our show show, but more importantly Rex was my friend. He and I enjoyed quite a bit about Latin together and cooking up stories about Caesar and sitting around and talking about the fun things about teaching Latin. The world is a little dimmer without him.

And as you can imagine, there are plenty of people who are remembering him right now. And I'm hoping that we releasing this show will be of some source of comfort, as I know it will be to me. So this week we're releasing both episodes of the Secret Gallic Wars that so prominently featured Rex and his unique sense of humor and his brilliance. Rex was a wonderful man and I was glad to share the world with him. He will be missed. And so sit back and enjoy or do your chores as you see fit. A couple hours with myself and Ed Blaylock and Dr. Rex STEM as we recount the story of Y.C.Ser was really in gole. This is a geek history of time. Where we connect nerdery to the real world.

I'm Ed Blalock. I'm a world history teacher, a new father of a just over one year old son. And I have been a nerd as long as I can remember. I was exposed to Tolkien at far too young an age and it warped me forever. Damien, how about you? I'm Damien Harmony. I'm a Latin teacher, formerly a social science teacher at a local high school, here in Sacramento. I have two children, my daughter who has taught herself draconic alphabet, recently for an adventure that we had. Raising them right. Yes, a son who's super into trains,

an adventure that we had. Raising him right. Yes, a son who's super into trains. And I've been a geek for quite some time. I remember my dad showing me paintings of Conan the Barbarian from the original book series. Oh nice. Yeah. It coincided with a day that I was really, really sick. So he thought he made me throw up with how scary the ape beast was. It wasn't. So it's been a while. It's been just influenza. Yeah. Highly influenza of my youth. Yes. I know. So Ed, we have a guest here today with us. Yes, yes, we do, sir. It's a pleasure to meet you for our audience at home. Can you let them know who you are? I will do that. My name is Rex Stem. I am a Latin professor, which is how I came to know

Damien Harmony. And I do not have the sort of nerd credentials that you two have, but I will try to help with the Roman history and the Latin background. Okay. Now, you two have a lot of notes in front of you here. And you have what looks like some kind of a dissertation here. I see something about Caesar's achievement in the Gallic war.

So I'm fascinated. I want to know what you got to say about this. Let's jump right in. Well, I realized that in a lot of our episodes, it's a lot of modern history. Yes. It's the Damian Things 9-11 ruined everything channel as well. What kind of did? Yeah, as well as the Ed thinks that British parliamentary history is the most

important thing channel and also down robots. So I figured let's go back a little bit further and see if we can... You know, I mean, you're living Hiroshima out entirely. Oh, especially when you're talking about the giant robots, but yes, knowing a little farther back in history is probably a fault some classics. So yeah, I realized I was not necessarily equal to the task unless I brought in a Bonafide expert. Okay, get a robot by the way is a classic. I just want to make sure Refer to the Greco Roman classics. Oh, oh, oh, oh, we can just take capital C for Capital C classic. Sorry, sorry, sorry not oh, we can just think about classics for more. Capital sea classic. So just sorry, sorry, not to be confused with classics,

which is pickle talk. It just, very different. Really, very bitter. Yeah, it's my bread and butter, but really. Yeah, thank you. So you do. Oh, you know what? I'm going to let that go.

Well, I may sun, because it's a little jarring. So Rex, save us for me. OK, so we're going to talk about Julia Caesar because it's the Iads of March. And so, but that's jumping ahead because we all know the Iads of March because he gets killed on the Iads of March. And we're going to talk about how Caesar, how Caesar came to be Caesar.

And that is that when he was consul, chief magistrate in the Roman Republic, he got himself assigned to govern the provinces of what the Romans would call, sis Alpine Gaul and trans Alpine Gaul, which we would call northern Italy and France. And at that point, northern Italy is effectively conquered by the Romans, but they're not yet sort of fully incorporated into Italy. They had at that point integrated really into Roman society.

Yeah, well, they probably had in terms of their culture, politically, they're not allowed to. They're still in Bethlok. Those Caesar will make them full citizens before he moves the I'd say Mark. To the point where there is graffiti in Rome saying a good idea would be to not show a new senator where the Curia is because they didn't want Gallic senators coming in to the

Curia. Wow. Yeah. And they even said Caesar conquered these Nancy boys who wear these girlish pants and they put down they pulled down their pants and put on the Togas So there's all kinds of really fun. Yeah, and this is Milan. We're talking about. I mean these are fully Italian places now Yeah, the idea that there could be that much discrepancy. Yeah, so so I'm curious Just to now ask when we're talking about Transalpine Gaul in this period. How much when by the time Cesar gets up there, I mean I know about

Versa Getterix, I know those story. That's all at the end. Yeah, that's seven years later from the work I'm about. Well, okay, but at the beginning of his time, based on what I know comes later, I'm gonna guess that the Gallic tribes there were still culturally and presumably linguistically entirely still Celtic, entirely. Okay, yes. And the Roman presence is really only the French Riviera,

what we would call the Riviera. Just along the coast in order to go to Spain, because Rome had already taken Spain from Carthage, and they wanted to connect their empire. So there's a sliver of land on the coast, and there's all that France up there. That is sort of unknown and Britain. Yes, yes.

But for some reason, the Rhine River had already been decided as the border between Gal and Germany. And Caesar's only interested in everything from the Rhine River to the Atlantic Ocean. Only. Only that was the greatest noise that there was. The largest plane in continental Europe. And he crossed it sometimes to boffam on the nose and keep them back. Or to chase someone down. Yeah, that was about it. Oh, yeah, we we have a we think a richer understanding of the German threat than really Caesar let's on really. Yes. Okay. Well, all right. So

Okay, stop interrupting. We have to get into Germany. Yeah. So when Caesar starts so he, he, when he's constantly gets himself a command that's five years long. Okay. And if you're a Roman, and you know you have five years, then you can go pick a huge fight. Oh, yeah. Because you're gonna have all this time to go and deal with it. So it looks like Caesar is sort of eager to find somebody to go and mess with. And Caesar hears that the Swiss, the Helvetsciens, or the Helvetii, have decided to migrate all mass. All of them, he later says there were 368,000 of them that decided to leave what we would call Switzerland and migrate down to the Roman part, migrate down to the Roman part, go all and then back up towards the coast to some nice farmland where they could be more expansive.

And to do that, they're gonna have to cross Roman territories and Caesar says, no, you can't do that. They had two possible roots. One was through a mountain pass. I mean, it's Switzerland. Yeah. The reason they never got invaded by the Nazis. Yeah. Well, one of the reasons.

But they had to pass through a mountain pass that was so small that only a ox and a cart could get through. And then some people on the overhanging cliff with good arrows could stall everything. Because not only do you kill that thing, it doesn't disappear like in video games. It blocked everything. Yeah. And so you just keep rating down arrows. Well, that's part of the reason, the battle of the hot gates was what it was. Exactly. So obviously.

And Caesar talks about that. He says, so they had that, or they could go through our territory, which is a much wider place to Ford. And so you can just kind of guess what a population, who, by the way, is leaving an area that's, I want to say, 240 by 180 miles. I believe that's exactly right. Yeah, that small an area and they're all leaving like he said.

So, okay, you say he had this figure of 368,000. Yeah, he claims. Okay, now do we have any kind of archaeological evidence, any kind of other corroborating evidence of whether his numbers are inflated? Do we know anything about where he's getting these figures? Well, oh no. He's, you know, Rush Limbaugh just pulling a number out of his body. He says that when he defeats these people, he finds in their luggage effectively a census of everyone who had left on the expedition.

And then he offers some of those numbers and they total up to 368,000. So we have to, he's the only source. Okay, we got it. Okay, yeah. And we have to allow for that. Okay, and I find that interesting because the hellvents were a were a Celtic Celtic tribe and I know that outside of you know some of the Celtic tribes developing an augum system that didn't actually have a real system of writing as far as

this was in Greek character. Oh okay alright. Yeah so they were using good character. Because well okay, okay, because actually, the city of Marseille had long been a Greek colony well before the Romans had forgotten. So there's some saturation of Greek culture of the call that the Romans then took back. To the point where they have kind of reimagined Greek gods and they worshiped them in a slightly different way.

Yeah. But, which we'll come into play a little bit later, honestly. But they fully have adopted some trappings of Greek cosmology. OK. Yeah. Yeah. OK.

So we have to get into the interesting part. So on the one hand, this is a very easy account to understand. You have this whole people that wants to migrate through Roman territory. And these are just assumes you're going to come. And have this whole people that wants to migrate through Roman territory and these are just assumes you're going to come and you're going to take stuff and you're going to kill people and you're going to pillage and I'm not going to let you do that. Yeah. And they initially resist and then they make a deal with the neighboring

tribe and they're going to go a different way but they disobey what Caesar wants them to do. So he rushes back to Italy and recruits to three more legions, I think at least two. He levies one in the area and he's coming up with another. And then he marches back and chases them down. And there's some chacing and then eventually they end up fighting and it's a decisive victory for him. Okay, so that's the Sort of easy way to understand the story. Okay, but there are some details in this story which which he he acknowledges But he doesn't actually really explain and those are the things that sort of caught the eye of Damien and me

Okay, for example when he sets up the reason that they're going to migrate, he says that there was a chief to name or getter ex and he had this ambition that the hellvation people should be the number one people of go. And so he convinces everybody to migrate, they say, we're going to spend two years getting ready and then we're going to go and our getter ex goes and makes alliances with the neighboring peoples. But forms his own triumvirate. He really does. He does.

He's completely with marrying his daughter to someone else. Really? Yeah. And these are kind of... The parallel is that. Yeah. He confesses by accusation there. Oh, wow.

All right. Yeah. Yeah. Debi Kiyakis and kind of a tallet us I think specifically all the names. Yeah, nice Okay, but the one I'm trying to get to is then it's realized though that or geter X is making this try umber it without Telling the people what's going on? So his own Magistrates rise up against him. He is put on trial. He escapes, but is found dead

Okay, suicide is put on trial, he escapes, but is found dead. Okay. Suicide is suspected, says Caesar. And then you'd think... It's all on his own swords. It's times. Backwards. Backwards, oddly enough. Yeah.

Okay, but you'd think if this conspiratorial leader had a plan to get everybody to migrate, then once you realize that the leader is conspiratorial and is a fraud, then surely you're going to abandon the plan to migrate. That would be the reason for you to do. And yet Caesar says, even though he was dead, the hell of reasons decided to carry through with their plan anyway. Recruiting other tribes, by the way. Yeah, yeah.

So then you begin to realize, well, maybe there's some other motivation here that the elevations need to leave this territory. And it isn't the kind of Velico's ambition that Caesar is attributing to them. Moreover, Caesar says that when they leave, they burn all of their towns and villages and all of their freestanding buildings. Yeah. Now, he says they do that so that they don't have a temptation to give up on the whole expedition and go back home.

Right. And the only sure way to convince them that they have to go through with what they say is to burn everything so that there's nothing to go home to. But again, the two Damien and I, this seems like the sort of clue that there might be some other reason why they need to leave and they need to leave in this sort of On mass it almost it feels like more than just a migration. Yeah. Now I also want to point out that Caesar is writing these dispatches back to the Senate Partly as a here's why I'm here and why you need me here. But he also knows that they're being read in the forum.

And so he's writing it, I call it the kind of the prism effect. He's writing it for one audience, knowing it and another audience will hear it. And so everything he writes has to be in terms that the people will love him for and that the Senate will realize his necessity for. That's happening. And I'm hoping I'm not stepping on any of that. No, not at all. No, because that explains sort of the audience that he's trying to reach, but also it limits

him because he doesn't necessarily want to make everything known to everybody. Right. To go back to the number of 368,000 that you says the left on this expedition. At the end of the expedition when he finds these things and then he does his own census and he finds there's only 110,000 left. So that means 258,000 people have disappeared. And that's hard to I mean some people who think the worst of Caesar say this is a genocidal maniac who just killed 250,000 people and doesn't even sweat over that, but Caesar only describes

one battle with the hellbicians and that battle has a fairly limited form and it's not the sort of thing where you'd expect to 150,000 people. Well, any kind of battle in the classical period, you know, I mean, with a couple of notable massive, you know, a couple of battles that are notable for being as massive as they were, and were commented on at the time as being these huge apocalyptic things, that is a casualty figure that beggars the imagination.

Well, and even the massive ones are 50,000. Yeah, yeah, so, so, so, this, you, okay, so there's a, time-spot. Yeah, Kanay, Knaid, Quintuple. Yeah. So, there is a huge scalar issue here. Yes. Okay, I can see that.

Or something is causing the herbations to die, that is, in addition to whatever Caesar is doing. And perhaps this is related to the fact that they had to burn all their possessions before they left. Okay. These are the sorts of clues that if you look for them, it's starting to form a pattern, we think. Okay. And then after this expedition, the pattern that the Senate would see, by the way, they

would absolutely catch, but the common folk would be like, hey, go slaughter them. That's great. Better over there than over here. You well, yeah. Make room great again. Yes. Build wall. Yeah. Build two walls. Build multiple. You're getting ahead. Sorry. Sorry. Seven years later. Back to this versus getter. All right. Seven years later. Back to this verse of Getter Inga. All right. Okay, so, as to the hell we can get paint. All the Gaul estates from nearby come to congratulate Caesar on his victory and sort of try to figure

out what's going to happen next for them in Gaul. And they ask for a private meeting with Caesar. It isn't going to be a regular Gaul Congress. And they swear oaths that they can't tell anybody about what happens at this meeting unless they've been officially chosen by their people to come and represent their people at this meeting. And then we learn, and so, and Caesar tells it, this is when Caesar learns that there is this other threat in Gaul. And that comes from the Germans

who are led by a king named Ariavistus. And Ariavistus has come across the Rhine initially because he was invited, or that's what he's gonna say later, and is now so encroaching upon, well, he starts in the lands of the Sequoane who were next to the Land of the Elvian. And then next to that are the Ibuy who are the chief allies of Caesar and Gaul.

And so these three peoples are all getting pressed by the presence of our Abyssus, the German. Okay. And just for reference, this is like northern Switzerland. Yeah. Austria, that area okay when we say the german what was where we're talking uh uh ancestor of austrogoth visigoth goth and we're talking gothic or talking don't know they were migratory is hacked by this point

uh yeah they hadn't settled germanos yeah okay it is the last um there's there what that me those those guys up cross the river. Yeah those those guys up in the woods Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all right the hill people. Yeah, yeah, the woods people Yeah, the woods, sorry, the hill people the hill people people with my people Build a wall I'll have to, didn't I? Okay, so everyone is terrified of this aureo business. Just terrified. And they talk about how anybody who crosses him is tortured. And that he is barbaric.

And that he is a hothead. And that he is extreme. And they have given hostages to him because that was required. Because he has defeated them in battle once. and they fear for the lives of their hostages And and they They're trying to get Caesar to intervene to get them back But Ariavistus hears of this they're afraid he's gonna kill all the hostages They say he's gonna put them to the greatest torture. Wow, so. Okay, this guy sounds kind of like the earlier coming

of Attila the Hun. Yeah. Oh, it's actually more serious than that. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. The climax of this scene is when there's one group at this conference of Gauls, and they don't even say

anything, they just look down, they're absolutely mute. And Caesar goes over to them and he says, you know, why are you not speaking? Why you're not involved in this? And they just refuse to talk to him. And then the other delegates explain that this was the group that initially had our Abyssalis come to them. And they are so terrified of him that they won't even complain because they feel that he is present even when he's not there. And so somehow he's going to hear what they have to say and they refuse to even acknowledge that this has been talked about. Wow. Yeah. So you can see that there's something really unsettling

going on here. Okay. And the people closest to it are the most afraid of it. And then as you move out from that center, it's a little less frightening, but it's pretty frightening. To radiation of fear. And Caesar has sort of only realized that the enemy in Gaul that he's really got a deal with was not the Elvisions, and that there's this other figure that now has to become the center of his attention. OK, so his first year in Gaul, you have the sudden pivot from the Elvisions, which was a nice campaign that ended to the real threat, which turns out to be a real business, the German.

The next interesting part is when the Roman, so he then marches toward Oravistus and the men begin to get news, word of what the Germans are like. And they are told that the Gauls who tried to fight the Germans were just terrified. They couldn't handle the look in their eyes. Yeah, the Akiyase Okulorum, which is this fantastic phrase in Latin. It means literally the battle line of the eyes. The aquease oculoro which is this fantastic phrase in that means literally the battle line of the eyes. I love that. That's like wow. Cultivate that look. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And so that's Bradbury kind of language. It really is. It's fantastic. It's fantastic.

And this is how you know that this is not just the normal enemy. Right? There is something that animates these people that terrifies those who see them. And so the army effectively mutinies and says, this sounds horrible, we cannot go fight these people. And we're going to stop right here. And it's especially as centurions, right? It's, yeah. They're sticking up for their men saying, no more. No, we're stopping to stop right here. And it's especially his centurions right? It's they're sticking up for their men saying no more. Oh, we're stopping boss. No boss. Yeah, we're done. Yeah, we're done.

Yeah. And then Caesar has to come out and give a big speech and try to save the day. And he does eventually persuade them. Favors the 10th Legion sort of uses the 10th Legion's loyalty against the rest and convinces them to keep marching. But it's one of the few times in the whole narrative of Caesar's campaigns that his troops say no to him. He has to persuade them to go forward. So again, these are the accumulating clues that this enemy is something that you would not expect Caesar to go and find. Okay. And then there's some back and forthing and there's some movements and-

And skirmishing. Eventually it turns out that the German forces want to wait until the full moon to battle. And when Caesar learns this and he realizes He's got a sort of speed things up so that he can force a fight before the full moon And there's the battle scene itself is Was this for like Germanic pagan religious reasons? That's what's being reported. Yeah, that he that are you weaseless despite the fact that he's the head chief and he listens to these cronish type women and he keeps going back to

them according to Caesar keeps going back to them and say can I do it now? No, no, it doesn't look good. How about now? No, no, it doesn't look good. How about now? Wait till the phone moon and then maybe and in the meantime he's trying to stall with Caesar at one point, they have a parlay. And if I'm jumping ahead on that, they have this wonderful parlay where he essentially, Arie Wiestis knows, yeah, Arie Wiestis knows that Romans don't do the horse thing.

They hire the horse thing. So he says, I will parlay with you, and we will meet as equals. And he's like, nah, that ain't gonna happen. But eventually, they go back and forth. He says, we'll meet as equals on horses. I will meet with you if you are on horses. And so Caesar turns to the 10th legion,

and he's like, you're all on horses now. And they turn to him, they said, we've been promoted. Well, because that made the equities. Right, exactly. And so they have this joke in the middle of this whole story. It's a wonderful, wonderful little bit. And so there's a lot of back and forthing until, but ultimately it is like,

are we gonna fight it under the full moon or not? So, I just love that story too much to leave it out. Okay, so as we approach the climax of this campaign, I think it's worth sort of pulling together the clues now that we have talked about. So we have an enemy that has this, the battle line of their eyes, that the Romans don't even want to look at, right? They break down and weep and they don't want to fight and they're ready to meet against

a season. So, so far as weeping, they're writing their wills. They think it's over. And weeping back then was not like it is now. Like it was a welcome thing. It was a fine thing to do. It's not a sign of sheer cowardice. It's a sign of passion.

But these are still hard. These are veteran tricks. Who are actually complaining not just about their eyes, but how huge these guys are. Oh, yeah, no, I've heard the stories of, you know, you talk about Mediterraneans at this time being my height. Right. Five, six. I'm a great guy, you guys haven't been able to figure that out, you know, listening to us. But I am, you know, whereas the Germania my height or higher.

Or taller, or, you know, six feet plus. Yeah, I know it would be terrifying. Yeah. And in an age where combat was all muscle-powered, that's a big deal. or taller or you know six feet plus and yeah I know to be terrifying. Yeah and in an age where combat was all muscle powered that's a big deal. Okay but this is where we're going at. We're going on here then just muscle power. Yeah. Okay because this is the kind of enemy that makes men weep and this is what the

Gauls did when they came to Caesar to explain to him what this enemy was like. They were all weeping at his feet saying please help us right and the sequani you know wouldn't even speak wouldn't have an acknowledge that this enemy was out there and the helvations clearly are trying to flee this enemy and they are going to flee so completely that they are going to burn all of their villages and towns and all their buildings where they're going to leave nothing behind and yet 250,000 of them die on this campaign. So Something is out there that is extraordinarily terrifying that would cause entire people to flee from it. Okay, to burn their homes In fleeing from. Okay. Yes. So what Could that enemy be like what enemy fits the clues that we have been

Describing because it can't just be a big German guy the Conan the barbarian figure right Caesar fights lots of people like that and he never has this sort of Inset of clues that suggest something that is truly different, okay And so Damien and I have come to the conclusion that the best explanation that fits all of these clues and explains what's going to come later in the story, which we're happy to walk you through. Okay. Is that Aaryo Vistis must be a zombie king. And he is leading a zombie horde of the undead across the Rhine into Gaul and threatening Western civilization and Caesar has to stop it.

Okay, wait. Back up. Okay. Okay, so you had me. Ed is taking off his glasses and is rubbing his temples. You, yeah, in my eyes. Okay, we're working from the evidence head. Yeah.

Okay, well, you know, I get that, but are we sure he couldn't be a Lich King? Oh, he's saying he's, he's not mindless. Obviously, he's scheming. And so I have to admit, my biggest problem with that theory is I can certainly understand the hoard that he's driving could be a hoard of the undead based. I mean, the burning of the villages is pretty evocative.

I was kind of thinking in that direction myself from the beginning, but. I like that you're not surprised at the zombie project. Well, you know, just the logistics of it. I mean, it had to be. Right. No, no, no, I'm going to go right there with you. So part of the strategy here is that Caesar is trying to reveal things gradually. And he's not just going to come out and say, hello, Senator Rome, we're dealing with a Lich King. He can't just write that out. Oh, yeah, no. Okay, I can still get it.

So what he's doing is setting up the hoard of the undead from the home. Oh, okay, all right. So first, and then you have to deal with well, what kind of king is he really? And what sort of powers does he have? But Caesar hasn't yet, I think, even yet fully understood situation.

But he wants to bring the reader in, you know, steadily, step by step. So you can understand the scale of what it's all about. Of the Necromancer involved in this. Yes, yes. And the last clue comes in the final battle when the armies finally meet up. Caesar describes how the Romans, the Germans, that was scare quotes, the Germans sort of form up this wall of shields and the Romans leap up and rip away the shields from above and stab downward in order to kill the Germans.

Which really sounds like an efficient beheading strategy. Well, that's the one way you can stop the forward advance. Well, yeah, as a sword geek, that does kind of make sense. Also, I find it an interesting departure from what we know about normal Roman tactics, which would have been, you know, to form the testudo and march forward and stay. Or make the saw teeth and just go forward and meet grinder it. That won't work if your enemy is so huge and so enured to pain that the only thing, right. Yeah, that the only thing to do it would have to be

a shot to the head. Yeah, leaping jump to stab them in the head. Yeah. OK. OK. All right. Again, it's because you understand what a normal battle would go like.

How would you describe that you realize that this description suggests that this is not the enemy that the normal reader might might heal it. OK. The problem, though, is that even when the Romans turn this German army and they flee all the way back to the Rhine, a lot of them are killed, I don't know if he gives a number, but a tremendous amount of them are killed, but Aariovistus himself escapes with a few others across the Rhine back into Germany. And so Caesar thinking that he was going to go and eliminate this thread now realizes that

the origin of the whole Horde is now back across the Rhine in a place that he can't get to and potentially all of Gaul and then ultimately potentially Italy is at risk from what this king might do. And Caesar then commits pretty openly, I think, to staying in Gaul as long as he has to to deal with this threat. Okay, and so the next year he goes north to Belgium and the third year he goes down to. Along the coast.

Along the coast. It attacks the seaagulls. The Southwest part of Gaul, but those are just normal, good days, so. Those Seagulls are just normal opponents. And it's just military campaigning again. You have regular style narrative, and you realize that this is different than it was

in the beginning. And then, fourth year of the war, new German horn comes across the line. Caesar rushes over, captures their leaders, he slathers everybody. He kind of admits that he slaughtered everybody without really following the normal protocols for trees and alliances.

Because he thinks this is the return of the zombie Horde I'm not gonna treat them like I would a regular foreign power But it turns out that they were just men and he killed a lot of them and he still doesn't know what to do So then he actually builds a bridge Across the Rhine that he describes and loving detail. Oh, yeah, he's the famous loving detail. Oh, yeah, he's the famous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he spends a couple of weeks over in Germany and no one comes, like he's over there. He's making a target of himself. No one comes. So he gives up, uh, comes back across the Rhine, tears up the bridge, and then realizes that or then Damien and I think, and this

is more Damien stairs. I'm about to pass this over to him. Sure. He thinks that maybe the Druids are the source of this knowledge. And the Druids are... They're from Britain. They're up north. They're in the island across the ocean. And no Roman has really been there.

He sends an advanced party there, but doesn't get the guy back for a while. So it's kind of an odd thing, and they're remote, and so he's going to have to go and explore that. Before I get there, now I want to just go back to that first and last battle with Arya Vistus. It's in book one of Caesar, it's around chapter 52, and Rex found this wonderful quote. He says, throwing aside their javelins, our men fought with swords hand to hand. Normal thing is you throw javelins as you advance, and then you, you know, you just go in and you meet Grindr them. But they were found very many of our soldiers who leaped upon the failings, and with their hands tore away the shields and wounded the enemy from above. If you're a Roman in the forum this is like the

climactic battle you're just like yeah yeah it's fantastic so so if you're in the Senate you're a former soldier yeah and you're sitting there going, oh, is why why are we doing that? So, okay, so so how much of this is him sending a code to the Senate and how much of this is him doing like Shakespeare did in playing with the ground like the answer is yes. Okay, poor kid no low-stops. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Why not both? Okay, so because he is doing that like and and in so doing here's the fun part He is both saving Rome and Putting them in his pocket like he is increasing his legend and also let in the Senate know like this is some a bad problem It's a good thing. you've got me up here though. And so there's obvious propaganda.

But it's also very much like, no, this is a real problem. And it might be why Pompey and Crasse didn't go up to help him, but did send relatives and friends with him. Because Crasse's son serves under Caesar for a while, which is kind of a return because Caesar served under Crasse's and for Cusse's. And you know, Pompey of course is married to Caesar's daughter and so he's going to send advisors to protect his father-in-law who's 10 years younger or so. But it's working out that there has never been an account of a war as extensive as this one.

Yes. And this is a sort of unique literary moment for Roman history. And that too, I think, suggests that this is an enemy that was unlike other enemies that Rome had to fight. And Caesar wants to memorialize that. Yes. And yet not... Well, he can't straight out of me. That's real true. How crazy would it sound if he can't let out I mean, you're true

How crazy would it sound if he just came out straight instead you know, we're fighting a horde of the undead Right, you know, I mean anybody who believed him would immediately panic right everybody else would just think he was crazy Right, you know that nuts, so you know, so he has to thread the needle between building his own right exactly Having it sound like Rome is invincible as ever Yeah, and yet alerting those who understand how grave this threat really is. That's the genius on it or that's why you have to go out of the grave. Thank you. Oh yes. You started to make our mark and I did where you were going. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. I dug Oh, sir, I say good day. So, we're going to fast forward from that battle to the fourth year.

So, he's gone around, smacking around on the Gauls, runs across the river, thinks that he's going after. Go ahead Rick. Yeah, no, just to stress again. So, not all the campaigns of Caesar are against undead opponents. None of them really are just, these are the Belgians and I thought them in it was like this. Okay. So you have to look for the clues where you can say, these are the episodes that really matter. Okay.

So in book four of Caesar, so this is four years into the battle, right? Book four, I'm blanking on what year that would be. That would be 50, five. Five, yeah, it starts in 58. Yeah, so 55.

So in book four, Caesar goes to Britain, right? And the reason he goes to Britain is because he's heard things. And he's trying to find the source. He sees these zombies thing, it's got to have a source. And there's rumors of men in Britain who are blue, and they don't eat rabbits, geese, or other types of animals. Very strange, even though these are animals that are all around them. And he's also heard this rumor of this group of people called the Druids, and they have

religious practices. And I talked about this earlier now. The Druids and all of Gaul seem to have taken the Greek gods and kind of shuffled them around a bit. The chief god amongst the Druids is Dees. And that's the god of death. Yes. Hades for the great.

So he's like, oh, okay, well they worship death. Necromancy. The undead. I, okay. Right? Okay. Okay. So he thought it was the Germani.

But then he's like, well, I haven't heard from them in a while. And Arie Wistus was about four years ago, three years ago, and there's not been any real zombie stuff in that time. So he goes to Britain to try to fair it out, because it's still in a threat that's looming on the horizon. Okay. He gets to Britain, but that he runs into the Britons who show none of the same tactics that the Germany showed. Well, no, they were chariot fighters. Yes, and they're way too in the challenge.

Way too human. They're too nimble. Their chariot tears. Tears, he writes about them. He says that they, and all my quotes here in Latin. So he says, I might have it in English over here, that they throw their weapons and generally break the ranks of the enemy and with the very dread of their horses

and the noise of their wheels, they do this. They just, I mean, they're shock troops, right? Yeah. And we know that chariots are inefficient weapons, but they're a crew weapon. That's what makes them amazing. You can't do that with zombies. And then he says, and they're a crew weapon. That's what makes them amazing. You can't do that with zombies. And then he says, and they run along the pole and stand on the yoke and then sped take themselves with the greatest

Clarity to their chariots again. Which I used to think they're back flipping, but really they could just jump up and the Charity keeps going and then they fall. Oh yeah, yeah, um, it's amazing. Yeah speaking is a as a you know, Kelto file You know one of the one of the Stories that you wind up hearing from Celtic sources Celtic legend and myth that was you know held on to by the Irish Spoiler alert. I know what happens in Britain And Ireland is the only place anyway. I don't want to give it away for anybody who doesn't know But um, you know. But they talked about these heroic feats, that they're charioteers, the drivers and the warriors equally were able to do.

And it was a big deal socially for status and all these kind of things to be one of these guys. And talking about how nimble and how fast moving they were, it was their tactic that, you know, the warrior would jump off of the chariot as they broke the line. They would jump off of the chariot. They would fight. They would try to gather as many heads of the enemy as they could. Yes.

Okay, I just had a thought about that. And then carrying the heads in one hand and with their sword or one of their swords in the other, they would then have to run to catch up to their own chariot and jump, run it as it turned around and wheeled back through the line to their own side. Running head long. Yes. Sir, my second shall contact you directly. So Caesar gets up there.

And he sees no evidence of this. He can't find the elusive druids. Nothing's conclusive. He does find a bunch of dissonous Britons, by the way. Like, like everyone has. Yeah. But he finds them and he demands hostages and they hem in hawn, they lie to him. And so he's like's like all right, I'll be back and he gets to explore for a while

He smacks them around he doubles his demand for hostages. He goes back home. Go back to golf Still no source of zombies, but he He also didn't get a chance to fully explore Britain. So he'll be back the next year He also learns that the druids don't write anything down. Right. Everything is transmitted to Orally. Yep. And they run a sort of school where recruits come for a certain amount of time. 20 years. Till they've learned all the Druid magic.

Yes. So this, it's still in him that if there is a source of learning that might be related to these dark arts, then the Druids still seem like the most likely source. So he's got to go back to Britain and keep looking. Yeah, and he knows that. And so, and also the fact that they don't send all the hostages makes him wonder, why are they so willing to be

dishonest to me, Caesar? So one problem that he hopes to confront was that full moon issue. He doesn't get to it in book four. And actually interestingly in book five so now we're in 54, I don't do math backwards very well. 54. Okay, so now we're in book 54 or we're in year 54 BC. In book five it's the only time that Caesar stays the winter in Gaul. Every other time he's gone back to Italy, this time he stays in Gaul.

So there's a shift there to me. So like you see some exploratory commissions being set up and stuff like that in book four, but we've seen nothing for three years. So it's kind of running dry. And then in book five, it's a real shift. He stays in winter. There's this group of people up north called the Travary. And they peak his interest, but he's still dead set on the source being in Britain. Where are you going to? Oh, okay. And the Travary is this group that doesn't come to the General

Council that he calls. And they border on the ryan now he's still thinking it's in britain scottian britain scottian britain i swear to britain their blue scottian britain now did he actually encounter anybody and any of any of the pictures not doubted undoubtedly picked it says the scott at the table who who you know who were the source of the blue people. He mentions them as being in Kent. Yeah.

And that there's a triangle in the middle of the island and they use tin and they don't use gold or any normal metals for currency. They use rings. Okay. But it seems to me, and he even talks about like kind of alludes to woad. Yeah. A bit, but also he doesn't know much about these things.

I don't know that he's ever encountered them though. Does he actually? I don't think so. I think it's what he hears. From the Britons. He never says that he saw any blue book. So he figures that since he beat the Germans in book one, right, that the leader of the Traviri is a guy named in Dutu Amaros.

He figures in Dutu Amaros is overreacting when he comes to Caesar going, there's Germans on the Rhine, this is a problem. He's like, nah, nah, nah, you know what, give me your hostages. And Dutu Amar's begs him to address the zombie problem in his territory. And Caesar shuts him up. And he instead says, you know what? Give me all your leaders. And I'm gonna put this guy name Singatorics

in charge of your tribe. And I'm gonna take all your leaders to Britain to show you that I know where the zombies are sourced, locally sourced. You get well, you know, you need organic, exact sourced parts. You're kind of by default. Yeah, you know. And he's certain, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like,

he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, he's like that he's wrong is like he really flubs it here a couple times and maybe even opens the floodgates by accident Because he takes the leaders away from the bell guy the bell guy are one of the toughest tribes They punch the Germans when they come across the Rhine The he'll they to use to punch the Germans when they came across the Rhine down south and so it's just like you know whack him all with the Germans So he takes them with him he even takes uh

whack them all with the Germans. So he takes them with him. He even takes, like I said, he takes a lot of leaders with him. He leaves his favorite guy of, I'd say, the entire Gallic Wars, Labanus, which is so fun because Labanus in the Civil Wars gets roasted by Caesar. Because Caesar thinks Labanus is just so loyal to him. He's the best soldier he's ever had, et cetera, et cetera. Like, outchains Mark Anthony.

Mark Anthony barely gets mentioned at all in these wars. But Labanus is just getting high praise the whole time. Later on, when he crosses the Rubicon, Labanus is like, I can't go with you. I'm sorry. No, I'm loyal to Rome, not to you. And Caesar's just so hurt by that, that he spends three chapters.

Oh, oh, fend it, sir. Hugely. And he spends three chapters in his civil wars, just roasting Labanus about what a traitor he is. Yeah, and wow. Oh, he gets so caddy. Caesar. So what we're saying here is Caesar, in fact,

showed signs of narcissistic personality disorder. A little bit, a little bit. He's a messy, messy bitch. He really is. He really is. He really is. I'd like to just interrupt here and say,

actually what's, he's her claims is that all the Britons die themselves with woe Weatrum, Veetrum is the word, which makes their appearance in battle more terrible. Yeah, so it makes it sound like a regular battle with the Britons involves large numbers of blue people. All right. So yeah. So is it just the picks? Yeah, it's all in.

It's all in. That's all right, it's really funny. That is chapter 14 of book five. There you go. Since I have the text, you know, because we're working from the evidence. Yes, yes. Consistently, I am really impressed. Going from the actual act with the hard evidence

that you've brought to bear here. So he leaves Libanus, who by the way, is the most experienced zombie hunter of all his men who he leaves him lots and lots of horses because one thing you need against zombies is speed. They've got the numbers you've got to speed. Yeah, because you're going to go flopping off heads. Yeah, yeah. So he leaves him horses so that you can also have communication across from vast areas Yeah, in case you get wiped out. Yeah, Caesar makes it back to Britannia again He figures out the sources and kents he figures this out according to himself again

These are the weird people that don't eat rabbits chickens or geese and turns out the blue men actually did just paint themselves Okay the blue men actually did just paint themselves. Okay. Darn it, it's not the source. And then he leaves. Like pretty shortly thereafter. Okay, cool. I'm gonna grab some hostages and then we're gonna take off. Brings in due to a Mars and everyone back.

I'm sure it was like one of the most uncomfortable rides back because he knows he's wrong. He can't admit that he's wrong, you know. But he's largely uninterested. I could just picture some sub-shoofed in the back of the wagon. Aw, poor. Yeah, are we gonna tell him? Are you gonna tell him? I'm not gonna tell him. There are almost nothing back to Britain for a hundred years. Yeah, so it's not until a lot of years. And when they do, by the way, they end up just like killing all the druids. Yeah,

that was the spoiler I didn't want to give away. Is they wind up not only do they wind up wiping the druids out, they wind up committing historical character defamation, creating well, well, her too. But many of the things that they wind up writing about the druids in Druid practices, we strongly suspect now were just complete fabrications to make them look bloodthirsty primitive and more violent and terrible than they actually were.

Or they're drawing on the memories of what Caesar had left for them. That these people, you know. So, Caesar says that they build these sort of wicker statues in forms and fills them with living people and burns them a lot. Yes, that's what you would do. Yeah, that's, yeah. Like you do. Like now.

But I wonder if there are sources of corroborate that, or if that really is Caesar becoming legend. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean the, the, the, I'll write that or if that really is Caesar becoming legend. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, the, the, the, the, the advantage of writing stuff. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, the, the post-victorian, you know,

studies of what we found seems to indicate to that. One way or another that was, that was at the very least an exaggeration possibly fabrication in regard to druidic practices. You know, I think it's interesting that it might be conflating whatever might have been done by whoever you guys have, you know, pinned as being the source of this that sacrifice might be part of the necromancy involved in this whole thing. Could be. Could be an attempt and you can flip to try to make himself sound like, well, you know,

I didn't really fuck up that badly because they were still doing this thing. Right. You know, and it's entirely possible because that badly because they were still doing this thing to take that out of what, you know. And it's entirely possible because when they talk about the Wicker Man and we're jumping ahead a bit, when they talk about the Wicker Man, they fill them with the lowest types of people first and then when they run out of those, if they haven't filled it all the way to the top,

then they throw whoever they can. Now that's Caesar talking about it, but it's people whose lives have no value. And even slaves have value in Rome. So you wouldn't just throw slaves in, but you might if they had gotten bitten and the only way to get rid of them. Yeah. Fill up the whole statue.

Yeah. And it doesn't mean that they got it all 100% right. Maybe this was, okay, we're going to put it in the form of the first zombie that we ever saw It's a wicker man that looks like that. It's teaming with zombies and we're gonna burn it to appeal to the gods You know the first and worst explanation of most things. Yeah, so there you go So he comes back from Britain and calls the general counsel of all the northern Gauls and he tells them what's going on. He says, the source is not Britannia.

It was wrong, it's not Britannia. And when he shows up, they're in Northern and Central Gaul. He finds out that there's a famine in the territory of the Eberronis. And he uses this as his excuse to spread out the legions Now here's the kicker if you spread out your legions You are not eating all the grain from one area and forcing those people to attack you This is true. Yeah, so spreading it out everybody's gonna get a 20% pay cut instead of this one group that'll spark a rebellion

But at the same time you you spread them all out. Now you have mobility and you have a much wider net that you've cast to try to find the source of these zombies. And so this way he has a very mundane explanation for why he's doing it. Yeah, lack of grain, but he also has a very understandable plausible reason for why he has to be everywhere, all at once, so that he can find this. Okay. Okay. And he stays the winter to make sure. In fact, they even use the words, Kertur Faktus Est in Hiberana, which is he is informed while in winter camps, but Karethior means to be made more certain. Okay.

So it's much more with that. Now he's racked without worry. He'd been wrong about the source, and he knows that in Dutuomaris wasn't overreacting now. Sorry buddy, I was wrong. You were right. Let's get this working right. And now he thinks that anything might be the source though. So now he's swinging quite the other way

Exactly, okay, he sends a guy named Plancus to investigate a murder There's a guy named Tuscettius who gets murdered Who'd been a king of his region for three years under Caesar basically Caesar comes in he'd help Caesar Alive himself with Caesar and he's like all right great. You're our guy and then with Caesar, and he's like, all right, great, you're our guy. And then he gets murdered. And he says, he says, Plancus, he says, go figure it out. Go find out what happened and bring me people and question them. He's basically saying, was this political or was it murder?

It was political. It was 100% political. All right. Now in Dutu, Maris warns another guy named Ambiorx. Ambiorx is warned about those zombies. Now Ambiorx just gave grain to the Romans, just gave it to him, and he realizes that he needs the grain back.

So the plot thickens here. And so because they need to be able to fight off the Germanic horde that's coming their way. And so he goes, here's his plan. He's going to go and get the grain from the Romans. Now, I don't know that he wanted to go attack the Romans who are set up in his territory, but I do know that his own people insist on it because he says so. He knows that the attack will fail though. He knows this, but Ambiorex is tried, works in such a way that he has just as much power

over the people as they have over him. So he's similar to a pirate captain, I guess. Okay, yeah. Rules by prestige and... Exactly. During a battle, I will lead us. After the battle, we'll all decide. Okay.

He knows he's going to fail. He leads them into failure and then immediately asks for parlay. And he says, he tells him flat out, we need your help. Now, there's a sentence that Caesar uses in book five, chapter 26, and he puts the words for grain and in Dutuomars in the same sentence. So they are close enough to each other that you're like, oh, okay, this is what's going on. These are the priorities, okay? Now, ambiorex is 100% genuine in his plea. Everything that he says is absolutely true.

He says that essentially there is a big horde of Germans coming across the Rhine. They will be here in two days. Now where they are is that's a hell of a hard march to get across the Rhine and then over to there in two days. He says they're going to march all day and all night. They're going to be here in two days. And so either you can leave voluntarily or they will kill you here and he promises them safe passage through his territories. And he means it, 100%. I think.

And Rex and I have kind of come to this conclusion that he actually is on the side of the Romans, but he absolutely needs the grain for his people. And Caesar's not there, so he can't talk directly to to him but he can talk to Caesar's lieutenants, Kata and Sabinus and he talks to them about it and he says, now I'm going to go off and try to hold them back. You get out of here and what not and I'm sorry that we attacked you. It's just our custom and as you can see I knew that we wouldn't win. He even says, I knew that we wouldn't win. You know that I knew that. I even know one of your friends. He knows, I knew that we wouldn't win. He even says, I knew that we wouldn't win. You know that I knew that.

I even know one of your friends. He knows that I knew that. He's dropping all the cred that he can on this. He says, but they're coming. Okay. Can I just continue there? Please. So he knows that large horde of Germans is coming.

Okay. And he's afraid. This is the kind of enemy that you double cross the Romans for. Yeah. So again, we're seeing the clues that this is not the normal battle that we're having. And Caesar has already, as they may explain, spread his men across the landscape, sort of anticipating that the moment has come.

So the reason to focus on the failed expedition to Britain, I think, is because there was sort of a void back in Gaul, and once these are returns, he realizes the trap that he's going into. And there's a very oblique mention of the fact that news has been received, that Aurobistus is dead. Okay. But what could that mean? Okay. Yeah, well actually that is the end of our episode for this week. So we're gonna leave you on a cliffhanger.

I'm sorry, but it'll make it much more exciting to listen to the next episode. I strongly recommend by the way that you listen to these episodes in sequence. You're a monster if you listen to the second episode first it just doesn't make any sense. Yeah, but so Rex thank you for being a part of this episode and I look forward to your collaboration on the next episode coming up next week. Great to have the chance to explain this. Absolutely. And yeah, it really is nice to give it breath

and to allow it to actually like kind of... Well, yeah, then I can understand how having discovered something like this, it would just drive one baddie. Yeah. Not being able to. It's driven me to puns, really. That's the reason. No, it's based in evidence. It is evidence. It's driven me to puns really. That's the reason. No, it's based in evidence.

Yes, it is. It is. It is. It's based in evidence. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's driving upon. Yes. But the evidence is clearly there. And we'll get into the grammar of the evidence next week as well. Oh, yeah. Because there is an actual grammatical component to this that is compelling as I'll get out. But for right now, what's your takeaway so far? Um, it's really hard to say. I'm, I'm, I'm kind of flabbergasted. Do you want to just hold off until next time? Okay. I think, I think holding off until, until we have the, the whole, the whole totality. Sure. Of, of the story and the, and the. Sure. Absolutely. I think it's definitely worth it. Okay. Well, since we've got a guest here, I'm going to put everybody on the spot.

Okay. So Rex, are there any books that you can recommend that you've just been enjoying lately? They don't have to pertain to the subject at hand, but any book that you've really enjoyed in the last couple months that you've gotten to read? Oh, no. I read scholarship that is actually unpleasant even for nerds. Sorry to hear that. Yeah, way to encourage kids to go into academia. Kids, if you want to enjoy reading, don't become an expert. Don't become a professor. No, when you read, I can make books for a living. It drains the joy reading. Oh, Lord. There are limits to this. Well, then we're going to help you. We're going to recommend books to you. Ed, what books would you recommend? Well, it's interesting.

I'm doing this as part of my job, but I am teaching currently from my orphan English section, Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury. And number one, it is incredibly trenchant to the historical moment we're living in in a lot of ways. And number two, I had forgotten, because it had been years since I picked the book up and I had forgotten how lyrical Bradbury's prose is. And you are a very appreciative person of such things. I'm a prose whore. Yeah, no, if you can make the words look pretty on the page and sound pretty to the ear then you're halfway there with me. It's really tragic he never learned Latin, isn't it? Really is. But yeah, and Bradbury manages to be beautifully,

politically symbolic, and an awful lot of things that he describes. And it's thrilling to read on the page. And the sad part is that, of course, I'm teaching at the eighth grade level and trying to get eighth graders to understand poetic metaphor is the kind of thing that would make one actually hate it.

It would drain the joy out of it would make one actually hate it. It would drain the joy out of it. I can't force it. Yeah, yeah, and felt. And yeah, and I have in a class of, I want to say, I have 32. I've got about three who clearly are grooving on it. I've got about 25 who are sitting through it like eighth graders would and I've got about whatever the remainder is I can't do the math right now. I think a ninth grade audience, a tenth grade audience is more

appropriate? I think I think it would be easier to do in American lit and the eleventh grade. I think I think at that level there would be a bit more sophistication. They would not quite be operating strictly off of the amygdala as much as 7th and 8th graders do, which is a whole topic I can go on forever about neurological development in the middle school grades. But I think they would be better able to appreciate at that point. So, Naming, you just took a moment while I was waxing, you know, pedantic about developmental neurology

to go grab a book off the shelf, you got that? I just couldn't remember the author's name. I was gonna recommend, given the topic at hand, and also because Rex is suffering through mind numbing literature. I would recommend Max Brooks, World War Z. Son of Mel Brooks. Yeah, who really studied epidemiology a bit to write this book. He did a lot of background research on just how diseases spread and things like that is fascinating. The wonderful thing about this book is that it's in the style of after it's done, this

guy is going back and interviewing people who lived through it. And so each chapter is only a couple of pages long. So if you ever need an eye break from what you're doing, this is where it's at, because it's like you just get maybe two or three interviews in. You're like, wow, this is really good. And then you can put it down and you don't feel like you're in the middle of a chapter, you know. So I recommend World War Z by Max Brooks. It's a fun read, it's a quick read, and it's episodic enough that putting it down and coming back to it a month later, you haven't lost much.

So it's really good, and there's some really fun stories in it. So that's what I would recommend. So it's good. Yeah, while we plug our pluggables on Twitter? You can find this at at geek history time um, you can find me at at duh harmony do you age harmony? Yeah And I'm at the age play lock. Yeah, and You are an academic so I presume you have no presence whatsoever in the social media sphere. It's correct. All right. Lucky lucky man

I just get to come in as a guest. Yes, yes. And then disappear again. Right. And then, yeah. Into the mists. Okay, well, for Ed Blalock, I'm Damien Harmony, and thank you to our guest, Rex Stem, for joining us. And until next time.

Keep rolling 20s. Keep rolling 20s.