A Hot Dog Is a Sandwich - Why Can't You Put Cheese On Fish?

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

Today, Josh and Nicole explore the historical, cultural, and culinary reasons behind this uncommon food pairing.  Leave us a voicemail at (833) DOG-POD1 Check out the video version of this podcast: http://youtube.com/@mythicalkitchen To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This, this, this, this is Mythical. Go back to school with Rogers and get Canada's fastest and most reliable internet. Perfect for streaming lectures all day or binging TV shows all night. Save up to $20 per month on Rogers Internet. Visit Rogers.com for details. We got you. Rogers. Nicole, you and I go together like peanut butter and jelly, or in my country, cheese and fish. Hmm, where's that?

Chillistan, dude. That's what's up. Our major export's potassium. This is A Hot Dog is a Sandwich. Ketchup is a smoothie. Yeah, I put ice in my cereal, so what? That makes no sense. A hot dog is a sandwich. A hot dog is a sandwich.

What? Welcome to our podcast, A Hot Dog is a Sandwich, the show we break down the world's biggest food debates. I'm your host, Josh Scher. And I'm your host, Nicole Inaidi. And so I'm not actually from Chile. I'm first-gen, non-Chilestani born. Do all other countries have inferior potassium?

Yeah, Uzbek potassium is pretty solid. Kazakh potassium, honestly, it's been going downhill for a while. Chilestan, we're really on the rise. Elon Musk has a lithium mine there. Oh, congratulations. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty big. Pretty big. Great.

No, but Nicole, my general food philosophy, I would describe, though, as Chilistan. Because today we're talking about why does cheese supposedly not go together on fish? Where does this come from? Can you tell the people? Because I think this is a little bit silly. I think it's a little bit rash. I also think it's silly and rash. And I think anytime you paint

with such a massive brush in cooking, right? Cheese. Lots of different cheeses, right? Ricotta has so little in common with... Paneer has so little in common with cheddar. Brunost from Finland with cheddar with cheese whiz. Right. This is a massive, massive breadth of cheese and fish. What do you even call a fish?

I think it's a clam, a fish. Salmon has more in common with chicken than it does a clam. I will say, I guess seafaring, seafaring. Seafaring adventures of the clam. Blimey. That's not what pirates say. Anything that lives in the ocean or potentially freshwater. I think this is okay. So we can categorize cheese as whatever, what falls under the umbrella of cheese. I mean, there's legal definitions of what cheese is and isn't. I think we can go with like soft cheeses to hard cheeses

and whatever falls in between that spectrum. I think it's fine to classify as cheese. The softest being, what should we do? Now, what's the Icelandic? Skir.

Okay, so skir is the limit? Skir is legally cheese and I think that is the lowest cheese. Skir is almost yogurt at that point. But there are, you know

like fromage blanc sure there are like very very soft cheese cream cheese stuff like that i don't okay cream cheese is an interesting case for cheese and fish because of the great incredible crab rangoon wait you went to crab rangoon instead of bagels and lox actually that's almost the most Jewish thing you could do is go to crab rangoon instead of bagels and lox

god do we love Chinese food I love crab rangoons and I think that's wow you're so right why did I go to bagels and lox have you ever seen

the it went viral it goes viral almost every year especially among Jews on Christmas but it's the sign on a Chinese restaurant that says dear Jewish people

we do not know why your God insists that you eat our food on December 25th but we are grateful for it yeah I think it's so funny I don't eat a lot of Chinese I've only done that

like four times in my life I used to eat because we used to take my grandma out for Chinese food and she ate somewhat kosher-ish yeah-ish

at the end of her life she was kind of like de-gaff she's from de-gaffistan but wow no way neighboring countries ate somewhat kosher-ish. Yeah, ish. Yeah. At the end of her life, she was kind of just like Degaf. She's from Degafistan. Wow, no way. Neighboring countries. Neighboring countries.

Yeah, the civil war between Chilistan and Degafistan was brutal. I mean, why would it be a civil war? What? Were they once united? Yeah. Chilistan and Degafistan where it was,

what was it called? Childegaf? That's kind of a beautiful metaphor for how any conflict starts. I know. No matter how many similarities you have. I don't know all of them, but continue.

We used to go eat halal Chinese food. Oh, with Uyghur food. Uyghur food, yeah, from Xinjiang. I've never had Uyghur food, and I really, really, really need to. Have you ever wanted like a saucy brown sauce tofu with leavened bread with sesame and scallion? It is so good. Sounds like my jam. On the subject of crab rain boots, though. Yes, great. Great on the subject of crab yes great great crab but let me tell you okay let me tell you cream well solved it stop

stop listen cream cheese almost isn't really a cheese because i think it's it's a it's a unifying ingredient almost like mayonnaise mayonnaise, almost like yogurt. So I don't know if considering – you've done this a lot on the show, which kind of always kind of rubbed me the wrong way and irks me. Whenever we have – well, I've told you this before to your face many times. So whenever we have like recipes that need to involve cheese, for example, if we were making like enchiladas or something, or mac and cheese, would use cream cheese as the cheese and that would be a cop-out no no no there's one time that i've done this i know exactly what you're talking about it was the burger battle with johnny razon no it wasn't it was the kit kat mac and cheese and i got so mad at you oh yeah i know what you mean i know that's what it was cheese and mascarpone instead of using quote-unquote actual cheese.

That's fair. That's fair. And like if mascarpone is considered a cheese, which I believe mascarpone is legally defined as a cheese, at least by American standards. It is in America. If you could Google this, that'd be huge. But I remember talking to my Italian roommates back in the day, and I said mascarpone cheese. And they're like, bro, it's not cheese. It's cream.

It's cream, but is mascarpone really a cheese? I mean, this says it is a cheese. I mean, we got to define what cheese is, right? Cheese is you take active bacterial cultures. Typically, rennet is used, and then you add that to milk, and then it some sort of coagulates and ferments. The degrees to which it coagulates and ferments is variable. Ricotta is probably the simplest or farmer's cheese or cottage cheese, we'll call it, is probably the simplest form of cheese where you literally separate the curds. You don't even need reddit.

You need three ingredients or two ingredients. You need lemon juice and milk, right? And that's going to separate the curds from the whey, and then you strain it, and then boom, you got ricotta. So that's like the baseline definition of cheese. And then if you take those curds and you compress them and you bind them in different bacterias, and then you age them, you let them dry, you get something like

a Pecorino Romano, which is a cheese that dates back thousands upon thousands of years. They used to give Roman soldiers just little wedges of Pecorino on their march, which sounds lovely.

Yeah. You know? And so there's a whole like wide breadth of cheese and then you get something like a mascarpone, which is then like blended in with fresh cream

or burrata is blended with fresh cream. Do we, do we in this, for the sake of this podcast, consider cream cheese, mascarpone, farmer's cheese, cottage cheese, all of these like potted, like wet expressions of cheese. I know what you mean, like a soft cheese. Do we consider these things cheese? Because I would consider goat cheese a cheese.

Yeah, 100%. But you mean goat cheese isn't like chev. Yeah, chev is a cheese. Yeah, 100%. But you mean goat cheese isn't like chev. Yeah, chev is definitely cheese. But whenever it comes to like straticella or cream cheese, I feel like calling it a cheese for the sake of this argument doesn't really match.

I know what you mean because it's much more similar to like cream, whatever. But there are some people that still would not mix any dairy with fish. And when I say some people, we're talking about one people.

Italians? It's Italians. All this comes from, this all comes from Italians who are just kvetching about rules that have sort of been made up somewhat from scratch on what traditional is or is not.

But I love shrimp Alfredo. I also love shrimp Alfredo. What the heck, man? What the heck? I think the combination of flavors generally goes very well together. If you were to ask an Italian person, and the cookbook author named Giulia Della Croce has talked a fair amount about this,

they would just say that, quote, the delicate nature of seafood is overpowered by cheese. And that is a thing that I have heard from chef on chef. This came up. I was recently triggered because I was watching Top Chef. I made a troll of a recipe once. You?

No way. Spokane style pizza. It was a joke about all these regional pizzas that people get all worked up about like Altoona style pizza

with American cheese. Oh, Altoona makes me mad. And so I made a pizza with strawberries, canned salmon, and mozzarella cheese that was from Spokane.

It was an absolute joke. I thought it was funny. And I did it deadpan because I, I don't know, I'm some sort of not neuro normal or whatever they call it.

Okay. But any whom. So, Padma Lakshmi quote tweeted it and she was like, cheese on fish is never okay.

Never? And I was like, this is a, she had a tuna melt? I was like, what? No, it's salmon, strawberries, and moths. Like, that's bad. But, cheese and fish is never okay. Never? And I was like, this is a- Has she had a tuna melt? I was like, what? No, it's salmon,

strawberries, and moths. Like, that's bad. But cheese and fish is never okay is a ridiculous thing for somebody

who has traveled the world. Never? This isn't a single out patent because every Top Chef judge has said this. Anytime somebody mixes cheese with fish- Even Gale?

Even Gale. Gale? Even Tom. Not Gale. And it doesn't even come from, I rail against these rules that are from French cookery, right? There's a delicious French dish

called Moule au Roquefort. I'm going to guess that means mussels with Roquefort cheese. Yeah. Okay, great. I have to guess? I feel like it's just in the name.

Yeah, what do you mean? Well, not everybody gets to eat that. I guess, you know, low-hanging fruit is low-hanging for a reason. It's ready to be eaten. Yummy. But like mussels with Roquefort cheese is not popular, popular, but it's a dish that exists in the French culinary canon. Okay.

And then you look around the world, Nicole, and there are so many good cheese and seafood dishes. Sure. What are your favorites? Tuna melt. Tuna melt. I love tuna melt. American diner classic. And you know what?

Italians, tuna melts are older than spaghetti carbonara. Yeah. Spaghetti carbonara invented in 1944. Tuna melts predate that. I love tuna melts. Same. Bagels and lox, crab rangoons. Well, let's analyze a tuna melt for a sec.

What's your favorite cheese on a tuna melt? Cheddar. Cheddar, right? Cheddar is a very strong. Strong cheese. Yeah, yeah. You know, not hard cheese, but like a semi-firm cheese. Sure, yes. But it's like the semi-firm cheese. Sure, yes.

But it's like the cheesiest of cheese. When we think of cheese, we think of cheddar. I think of cheddar. No, actually, I think of a cheese that I never see,

which is a, it's Swiss in like design, but cheddar in color. Do you know what I'm talking about? Oh, like a cartoon cheese. Like a cartoon cheese, yeah. Have you ever actually seen that cheese ever?

Never, no. That cheese does not exist. It doesn't exist, right? It's like, it's like a Jarlsberg. It's a Jarls cheese doesn't exist. It's like a Jarlsberg. It's a Jarlsberg adjacent, but it's more yellow than Jarlsberg. I had Jarlsberg recently and I was like, damn, this is a delight. Really?

I had it and I said, why does it taste like nuts? I love the nuttiness. I love the nuttiness. Jarlsberg, man. Floor me. I haven't had it in like years. But like, I love cheddar cheese on a tuna melt, but I think the reason why it works is because the tuna salad that goes on top is mixed

with a bunch of stuff, like mayonnaise. What's the flavor profile of tuna, like a canned tuna? Well, it depends. Solid white albacore. With stuff in it? No, but I'm saying just analyze the flavor of the particular seafood and the particular cheese that are going together.

Okay, but I can't do that because I'm not doing the two together. It's a homogenous, holistic meal. Sure, together. Okay, but I can't do that because I'm not doing the two together. It's a homogenous, holistic meal. Sure, sure, sure. So I can't do that. Okay. I can't give you what you want right now. I'm sorry.

Keep talking. We'll get there. We'll get there. Like whenever I talk about like tuna salad, it's mayonnaise, it's celery, it's onions, it's mayonnaise, it's lemon juice or some sort of acid and a little bit of sugar, salt, pepper. That's kind of the thing. Put sugar in your tuna salad?

People put tuna, yeah, have you ever had a bite of tuna salad? Can I tell you something that you've been doing for the last four years that's been bothering me and I've never said it to your face?

No. It's a very specific cookery thing. No. Anytime. No. I'm going to do it. I don't want to. I don't care.

This happened recently. No, we're doing this. We're doing this. We're having a little therapy sesh right here. I don't want it. I don't want it. We'll make like a burger sauce and you'll just like add sugar to it.

You'll just be like, go to quarter teaspoon of sugar. I'm just like. Because everybody does that. Why? And literally last time we're on set. Last time we're on set. I'm so sorry. I watched myself pour in the sugar and I tasted it and I was like, it's just sugary now.

Do you want to know why? Ketchup has sugar. Well, I think you're right. No, I think you're right. Okay. I'll stop copping out with cream cheese if you stop adding sugar to burger sauce. No, I think you're right. No, I think you're right. Okay, I'll stop copping out with cream cheese if you stop adding sugar to burger sauce. No, I think you're right.

No, no, I think I should stop adding sugar to my burger sauces. I think it's because the Bob's Big Boy one has sugar in it and I've always like modeled it after that one. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. I'll be better.

Well, no, I'm glad we could have this conversation. I'm glad we can have that kind of open dialogue and not like hold grudges and think about it for the rest of our working careers together. That's huge. So you got a little bit of crunch from celery. You got a little bit of crunch from some other aromatics. Like overall, the things you're talking about, like those aren't super strong flavor profiles. You don't think celery and raw onion?

They are, but I'm saying they don't change the nature of the dynamic between... Lies. Okay, if you were to have... Think of a bagel on lox, right? The way that I vastly prefer it is tomato, red onion, caper. Okay. Throw some fresh herbs on there, whatever.

But if I were to have just plain lox cream cheese bagel, boom, that's pretty good. If you were to have plain tuna, let's add mayonnaise in there because you need fat for the tuna, melted with cheese, you'd still probably enjoy it. I don't think so. Not as much. Not as much. You don't think you'd like it at all. I don't think I would like it at all.

Interesting. I think I need those extra accoutrement, that extra little bite of the raw onion and the crunch of the celery and the flavor to combat against the cheese and the fish. I think it works well together. Do you think the cheese and the fish are bridging a very hard gap? Because for me, canned tuna, it's got a very distinct flavor. I'm not raw-dogging canned tuna, though. I'm really not.

I've raw-dogged so much canned tuna in my day. I'm sure you have. That's not something I… Oh, my God, the protein. I don't raw-dog it like that. No, I'll just slap it together with some yogurt and hot sauce. Yogurt? Spoon it in my… Well, yeah, if I'm just trying to get protein in me.

Yeah, I know. Again, I have two different foods. I have like medicine foods, which is protein and fiber. And then I have fun foods, which is all the rest of the stuff. And as long as I have my medicine foods, I can have my fun foods. Ah, the two food groups. The two food groups. Take that, Pythagoras.

But like tuna is, it's such a meaty fish. It just tastes like overcooked chicken it is very meaty and flaky has a unique flake to it yeah and there is a very unique taste to it

it's I mean you're getting some metal from the can but I think tuna does have a bit of a metallic taste too tuna is an apex predator yeah when I'm thinking of eating tuna you're literally eating

a bunch of mercury yeah I love it same but I'm saying tuna to me it's neutral enough to where it blends really well with something like cheddar. Where if you had something like sardines and cheddar, that's like one probably pretty good. But also that's like a harsher clash. You have strong on strong.

Here the cheddar is flavoring the neutrality of the tuna. So you think tuna is a neutral fish? Canned tuna. Bland canned tuna, yeah. It's not like an ahi, right? Interesting. Canned tuna, we're talking like skipjack kind of stuff. Interesting.

I don't agree with you. What do you think is a more neutral fish? I don't think a more neutral fish exists. So you think all fish is just like very strongly flavored? What's a non-fishy fish? Non-fishy fish? Swordfish. Orange roughy?

Yeah. Actually, orange roughy, pretty clean eating white fish. Orange roughy. Yeah. Actually, orange roughy. Pretty clean eating white fish. And swordfish. There's a lot of delicate fishy fish. Like flounder to me is like a very clean white fish. I'm tasting flounder. Very pristine. But it's got a flaky texture.

There's another cheddar and fish dish that I'm thinking of. I don't know. What is it? It's the super bizarre dish. I made it. Utter delight. We got to go back throughout history. The salt cod trade

dominated the world for a hundred years bacalao but for like a long time right people just ate cod and whatever they had

and it was like mostly cod because there was so freaking much of it and then they overfished it off the coast of Britain but anyways Newfoundland

cod grattan Newfoundland is where? Eastern seaboard of Canada I'm like pretty sure This is Canada? So there's Oh I know where it is It's the one that's

Shaped like this Yeah Canada and the US Are like very similar In the sense that you Right Draw a line from like Ohio and then go west And all the states

Just get bigger and bigger And bigger Yeah okay And there's more farmland Yeah okay Canada's like very similar Uh huh Where like you just go west

and you have... What are the providences of Canada? I mean, you have like British Columbia. I have Saskatchewan is probably a thing. It's okay, you can stop. Alberta is a thing.

But anyways, like you get east and it just gets closer and closer and closer and there's a lot more sort of history out there, at least European history out there.

And so Newfoundland, they have a dish called cod gratin that just has a bunch of cream and cheddar and you bake it on fish. It is good. And it's like, to me, the quintessential example of the delicate taste of seafood. Cod is not a fishy, fishy fish, right?

It doesn't have that like oily... It's not a fishy, fishy fish. Tuna is a very fishy fish. Salmon is a fishy fish. But like, not all tuna is the same. There's not even anything that necessarily legally binds

what a tuna is. Canned tuna has a distinct taste that can stand up to cheddar cheese. So you're saying that you go... Because there's

two different ways to... It's like wine pairing, right? It's two different ways to pair. You can pair like with like. You can pair like with dislike. And as long as it tastes good to you, you're perfectly fine, right? You can pair... And I actually don't can pair like with like. You can pair like with dislike. And as long as it tastes good to you, you're perfectly fine. You can pair – and I actually don't like pairing like with like when it comes to wine because I think they cancel each other.

You don't take like a blood red cab with a steak. I just don't think it's great because – especially if you have a red wine sauce on the steak because then you're sort of canceling each other out. Yeah, okay. This makes sense. So that's the same thing with food. You can go like with like or you can go like with dislike. You can go agon each other out. Yeah. Okay. This makes sense. So that's the same thing with food. You can go like with like, or you can go like with this, like you can go agonist or antagonist here. Okay. So I think that tuna salad is like as a, as a total dish, tuna salad with bread and melted cheese works together because the flavors of the tuna and all

of the stuff inside of it work alongside and beat against. I think this is an against situation with the cheese. And you're saying like the celery, the onion, the mayonnaise, the citrus, herbs, whatever, that's like binding. It fights against it. That's kind of binding it all. It fights against the cheddar and makes for a delicious sandwich.

Interesting. Because I don't think if you had the tuna and cheese, but this is the thing, the tuna and cheese alone would not be a good bite. But the tuna, cheese, bread, everything else makes it a better bite.

Are you sure it wouldn't be a good bite? I think it'd be. What if you made a tuna salad and you just like blended cheddar in there? Think about like a fish dip, right? But I'm thinking about the warmth, the cold, the cold tuna salad

Well that's a fun play But like if there was cold cheddar in there You just blended cheddar into a tuna salad Or very finely grated it maybe That'd probably be pretty good Probably good Yeah yeah yeah Put it on a cracker dude

Yeah that might be good I mean like a smoked sturgeon dip With just a bunch of like grated cheese in there I was just thinking What about smoked white fish Like doesn't even put cheese on smoked If you say you shouldn't put cheese on fish You're anti-semitic

And we don't mess with anti-Semites in Chilistan. That's why we had the split with the Gafistan. They were. I think, you know, what the factor is, is tuna isn't smoked. Sure. So I think whenever we go into like smoked fish territory, we can't really put cheese on it. Don't need to be smoked. Wait, let me tell you.

Smoked white fish salad tastes gross with a piece of cheese. It tastes probably good with a schmear of cream cheese. Same goes for smoked salmon. I don't think it's just smoked salmon, though. Because, okay, so smoked salmon, there's two kinds of smoked salmon. There's hot smoked salmon, and then there's what we grew up,

which is cold smoked salmon. Is that Nova? I don't think Nova's... Is Nova made of... Nova locks? salmon and then there's what we grew up which is cold smoked salmon nova uh nothing nova's is nova means there's novalox is that from nova scotia though what is novalox i never i never questioned what novalox actually means why are we talking about canada so much it's crazy canada man nova scotia it's from nova scotia okay okay okay oh but it is a method of curing and smoking so but if you look at like swedish, right? So that's not smoked. That is not smoked, just cured.

But it's heavily salted, which if you're talking about delicate natures of fish, yada yada, you salt fish, it literally draws the water out, which condenses the flavors of the fish. Sure. As a huge salty punch. Sure. Goes really well with something like a neutral cheese like cream cheese. So it's not just the smoke to me. But as we mentioned, cream cheese is like a far left in this case.

It is. Very, very far left. It's the Kinsey one on the spectrum, right? You know, it's like, oh, you know, I think Ryan Reynolds is attractive, but like I would never... Touch him. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's like what the cream cheese is on the cheese Kinsey scale. Agreed, agreed, agreed.

So I understand that. Other cheese and fish dishes. Go for it. My favorite, it is literally just, it's like a Mexican tuna melt, but tacos de marlin. Oh, you love that. Well, this totally negates everything I just said about smoked fish and cheese not working. It totally works. Yeah, this is literally like the best.

We had this recently on Matt Pat's last meal. That's right. I've eaten this dish tons of times, but I don't know if it was the emotion of the moment, but that was like the best bite of food I've ever had. Was it? So it's a marlin. You take a marlin, big old apex predator fish, similar to a tuna, but I think there's more fat in it, at least when you cook it.

And they sugar and salt cure it and smoke it. They'll call it jamon del mar. And it literally tastes like ham, ham of the sea. It's delicious. And then you shred that down. You mix it with like some chilies and aromatics. You put that with like a nice white kind of neutral but still very cheesy melting cheese, right?

Like Monterey Jack or queso chihuahua is probably what's used. Sure. And then you put that hard griddled corn tortilla, dip it in like a limey serrano salsa. And it is just, it's fatty and hammy, uniquely fishy, very cheesy. Totally. But the fat of the cheese just combines with that smoke, that fish. Like you can counter heavy with heavy. You're so right. That totally negates my whole entire spiel. I think it's the, you know what it is? I think it's the temperature of the white fish

and the salmon that completely turns it off. But whenever you melt it all together like a tuna melt, anything is possible. The heat actually like mutes the smoke almost. Do you agree with that? Yeah. No, I know what you mean though. Yeah, yeah. Whenever you have a bite of like…

We've made jamon de mar on the show. Like if I have a bite of jamon de mar and it's cold it tastes smokier than the warmed up version is that just me? that's funny no that makes sense oh wait does that make sense?

you know what it might be oh I'm channeling my inner Ariel Johnson here so that's the opposite of most flavor aroma relationships aldehydes what is aldehyde?

I don't know they keep saying it they keep saying it I don't know what an aldehyde is I think it's I like remember it from AP don't know what an aldehyde is. I think it's... I, like, remember it from AP Chem, but I got an F in that class. I think... Can you Google what aldehydes are, Maggie?

Because I keep saying it. Okay, this is the part of chemistry that I... This was the 57% of the chemistry that I did get. I never took chemistry. They gave me an F for getting 57% chemistry. That means I knew most of chemistry. You knew a lot of it. That's pretty good.

But air molecules vibrate more, rise up to your nose faster, ping around in there. You taste more when things are warm. However, I'm wondering if things that are colder taste smokier because you're tasting less of the other aromas. I think that's what's happening. Right? I think that's what it is. You can call Ariel on this. I'm just going to shoot her a text. But no, that's interesting. I think it might what's happening. Right? I think that's what it is. You can call Ariel on this. I'm just going to shoot her a text.

But no, that's interesting. I think it might be the case. But there's so many other dishes. Lobster Thermidor. Oh my gosh. Lobster Thermidor. I've made it many times. Gilded age dish.

Big fan. Why does that work to you? I think it's because lobster is… I think… Well, when I think of a lobster, when I'm tasting it in my mouth, it's like sweet and delicate and not, it's oceany but not fishy. Yeah, I hear that. So those are the three flavors I taste. And it's paired traditionally with the cheddar or Edam cheese.

What is it? I thought it was like an Alpine cheese, like a Gruyere. Maybe it is. Or like an Emmental. Maybe it is. And I think, well, Emmental has that, has a little bit of funk to it, which I really, really like. So maybe the delicate nature of the lobster works really well with that like funk of the cheese. And then it has all these beautiful

aromatics in there. So maybe it's just a well, maybe it's dish dependent, Josh. Maybe it's just dish dependent because you keep saying some really good dishes. Clam pizza. Clam pizza from New Haven. Clam pizza is one of my favorite. A hard pecorino on there. I love clam pizza. Dope. You know,

another thing I think about a lot is because if you're using the argument that strong flavor is overwhelmed fish. Miso black cod. Oh, I love miso black cod. Oh, I love

miso black cod. There is Mary, a stronger flavor out there than miso and in fact, it's like maybe a pretty good

argument that the reason a lot of East Asia, specifically China and Japan never developed like dairy is because they got all of the

protein and fermenty deliciousness they needed from fermented soy. Right? Probably. So they're getting all the glutamates and so miso is like

very similar to Parmesan. Yes. On a scientific level too. It really is. It's proteins breaking down to glutamates. That's umami. Miso black cod, great.

An Italian person, I think, would probably eat. My roommates love miso black cod but they would never eat Parmesan on black cod despite the fact

that they are very similar. So why? Why, Italians? Why? You can't keep getting mad at Italians. It's a bachelor brand. No, che cosa? Mortacci Dua. Mortacci Dua? Mortacci Dua. Can you look up what Mortacci Dua means? I'm going to guess Mortacci Dua. Death? I think death. It has to do with ancestors.

Mortacci Dua There is like a very good reason why Italians are very protective of their food culture I know we talked about this recently with QCP but I was reading a lot more about it

and Italy was unified super super late in sort of 1889-ish and sort of developed this attempt at homogeneity, right?

Yeah. And then that was just ushered into World War II, and it was like all destroyed. And so now it's like picking up the pieces of what's left. It's like why the Godzilla movies are so rad. You know, it's like Japan trying to reckon with the atomic bomb, and they created a hell of a movie franchise, right? Never seen it. Italy trying to reckon with what a fractured then united then refractured culture

looks like, especially when their biggest import and one of their oldest imports is food, right? Food is so important to Italian culture. It really is.

And so there's this like collective, you know, we're trying to pick up the pieces, you know, and we're trying to sort of like hold this all together and really take pride in it. And so I very, very much

respect that. But at the same time to paint with such broad strokes, right, that cheese and fish never go together, I think is incredibly disrespectful of other cultures

where it is normal. I like cheese and fish. I like cheese and fish too. You heard it here first. I also found, there is a couple things that I read. Ken Albala. Oh, our friend.

Our friend. He's been on the show before. Very fantastic historian. He's been on the show before. Very fantastic historian. He also said that the origins might go back to ancient Roman physicians who thought you had to balance the humors. What does balance the humors mean? God, the humors. What is it? It's like.

I have lint on my shirt this whole time. You didn't tell me. What are the humors? The humors are phlegm. It's like phlegm, bile, spit, and blood or something. Ooh. And those are the four. No, not four humors of the eye.

Four humors of the body. Isn't that the Red Hot Chili Peppers album? Is it? Black bile, bile, choleric, blood. Yeah, and phlegm. I don't know. And you got to balance them all via diet. And so Ken said cheese digests very slowly and would hamper the transformation of the

fish, which very easily corrupts. That means spoils. That is, it would go bad long before it could fully be broken down. And then that corrupt fish would be forced into the liver, be transformed into corrupt blood, and ruin the entire digestive process. So if we're talking about ancient Roman history, those general rules may have just sort of carried for thousands of years. And it just transforms into a waiter at a trattoria refusing to put Parmesan on your farm-raised tilapia. Tilapia?

And then I found another just Reddit user. I just want to credit this. I love Reddit. I thought this was really smart. This is just Reddit user cnash. It's not complicated. The rules are what's customary. What's customary is what's convenient and local,

and you can't pasture cows in the ocean. There's a culinary tradition in places with a lot of grazing land and a culinary tradition in places with a good harbor. And that's probably where this comes from, right? Interesting. Especially a place whose economy is so based on food. You know, there's people that live on the coast. They ain't raising cows. People that are raising cows, they ain't eating as much fish. They all sort of develop their separate rules. And a place in Italy where they hold on

to their tradition so strongly despite the fact that carbonara is only 70 years old and tomatoes are not native to Italy, but a place that holds on to tradition so much. I understand the gatekeeping,

but live a little bit, eat some lobster mac and cheese. Sorry. Macaroni e formaggi. Tutto bene Alright Nicole We've heard what you and I have to say Now it's time to find out what other Wacky opinions are rattling out there

In the universe It's time for a segment we call Opinions are Like Casseroles I have a question I have a question what language do you guys speak in Chilistan?

what? what language do you guys speak in Chilistan? oh we just call it Chilistani oh Chilistani yeah yeah

it's like can you give me like a like how do you say uh where is the bathroom yeah yeah dude gotta rip a piss or or in like the more colloquial like hey gotta drain the lizard dude where's the piss bucket wow you got any other brain busters for me i'm'm not fluent. It's like I can understand it. Oh, yeah, because you're first gen. Because you're first gen. I get it. Classic. Yeah, I get it.

Children of immigrants, right? I am, though. I am a children of, you know, South Africa. It's not. Can we please get to the first opinion? He's scrambling. I didn't mean to. Hi, I'm Kyle from Iowa.

I'm Kyle from Iowa. I just wanted to say that as a bearded man, I love bone-in wings, but I can never order them in public for fear of looking like a toddler eating spaghetti. Yeah. I much prefer bone-in wings to boneless wings, but when I'm eating them at like a Buffalo Wild Wings or a Wingtop, which Wingtop is better? Agreed. I agree.

I got to go boneless. I have a couple questions here. One, I understand that. And I feel like you've expressed similar things with not wanting to smear if you're heavily made up. Yeah. You know? But that's if you're going to like an event. Like I remember the streamies. You were being very, you look great,

but you were being very careful about the size of things you put in your mouth. This man's Kyle from Iowa is at a Buffalo Wild Wings. My guy, there are no rules in a Buffalo Wild Wings. If you think you look silly at a Buffalo Wild Wings, there is a blacked out Raiders fan dry heaving while trying to eat like uh you know blu nami burger or whatever that's islands not b-dubs but you see the point hi josh and nicole this is kelly from connecticut i'm calling with an opinion about macaroni cake or spaghetti cake as my mom always called it i think it's such an underrated dessert and it's such an italian

quintessential nana's recipe but we should see it in more italian restaurants and just widely let the world know that sweet spaghetti exists that's all thank you guys i love you um i don't think macaroni cake exists what the hell are you talking about i've never heard think macaroni cake exists. What the hell are you talking about? I've never heard of macaroni cake. We're all scrambling to Google macaroni cake dessert. I found something on Reddit. Again. My grandma, born in 1916, used to make a cake with cooked macaroni and a bland sauce to go on top.

I loved it and have yet to find a recipe for any suggestions. I've never heard of this um but i will say sweet pasta had kind of like a resurgence in like 2012 with like nutella pasta and like stuff like that i don't get it i'm so sorry i'm sure it's great and i would probably love it they do a lot of um i think in in romania or poland they take macaroni and then they have milk and sugar but i've never heard of this macaroni and then they have milk and sugar. But I've never heard of this macaroni cake that you speak of, unfortunately. So I can't help you, love. Can't do it.

Can't really do it, love. I found, okay, hold on. I'm searching. Replica of my grandma's recipe. Tweaked a little since she didn't leave us an actual recipe. Classic. It's sort of a pudding or custard type dessert. Not too sweet. Very creamy.

This is, okay. You cook macaroni al dente and drain. Whisk eggs, milk, cream, sugar, vanilla in a bowl. Cooked and drained macaroni. Pour into a rectangle baking pan and bake. So this is how you would make, I just read about this Normandy rice pudding dish. This is Kugel. Yeah, this is Kugel.

Kugel. Oh my God, it's Kugel. This is Jew. This is kugel. Yeah, this is kugel. Oh my god, it's kugel. This is Jew. This is Jew. You can just yell at someone. This is Jew. Josh, this podcast has been so Jewish. I know, it's great. But no, so noodle kugel is

a very, very Central European Jewish dish. And it's the same recipe. It's just sugar, eggs, pasta, baked. I would wonder if this person has Jewish-Italian roots or Roman-Jewish roots. Same. Same, same, same. There's a lot, eggs, pasta, baked. I would wonder if this person has Jewish-Italian roots or Roman-Jewish roots. Same. There's a lot of Roman-Jewish roots out there. Call back and let us know. Maggie, remember.

Don't cut this. Really awesome looking Normandy rice pudding dish that I just found out about called targul. Targul. Targul. But you bake it until it caramelizes. Nicole, look at this.

I know. It's just like milk and rice just baked until caramelized. It's creme brulee. Oof. I would love to try macaroni cake, though. I agree. And sweet pasta, if you make rice pudding, you should make macaroni pudding. This is awesome.

Hey, Nicole and Josh. This is Kazi from Brooklyn, New York. Originally from Bangladesh. Oh, cool. I grew up eating Bengali foods, which includes a lot of fish and rice.

But I always wanted to be more American. So I did something that my whole community shunned me for. I was adding ketchup. I knew this was going to go down the ketchup route.

I loved adding ketchup to rice. Is that weird? I don't know. I also added it to every kind of seafood you can think of. Okay, weird? I don't know. I also added it to every kind of seafood you can think of. And I also added it to curry.

I don't know. Seemed good to me. All right. Love you guys. Bye. So funny. So this is very, very, very relatable.

I don't know what first-gen chile san, like if they have that stuff. We eat a lot of ketchup in chile sanilistan, like if they have that stuff. But so. I'll eat a lot of ketchup at Chilistan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. Chilistan.

Sick. So a lot of my friends and a lot of people that would, that were like first gen or they would come to America from Iran, they would put ketchup on everything. Ketchup on rice, ketchup on pizza, ketchup on everything ketchup on rice ketchup on pizza ketchup on just anything i don't know if a lot of times they would put it on persian food and stews that was never really the thing but definitely ketchup and rice was very very popular amongst first gen or fresh off the boat people so i don't know what it is I think it's wanting to be American like desperately wanting to be American but also the flavor of ketchup is really really

how do I explain this it's kind of like the best condiment ketchup is a chutney it's a chutney sure if you were to go off of and I think it's so crazy how ketchup is like this unifier between like first gen kids that come here.

Because let me tell you, the amount of times people… I wasn't the biggest ketchup and rice fan. But ketchup and rice, ketchup on pizza, and ketchup on anything that was a carb was very, very, very popular. So I don't think you're weird. I think it's really cool. And also, I've never had Bangladeshi food, and I think I really freaking should because I would love it. Oh, Bengali food rules.

What's the difference between like Bengali food and Indian-Pakistani? I mean, Bangladesh just has so much coastline that there's just so... Lots of fish, like they said. Oh my God, dude, the best fish. No, not cocky fry. Cocky fry is Indian.

But anyway, also, you know, sovereignty politics. Sure. It's all tough. But there is a Bengali tomato chutney called kejar. Kejar, okay. Which is like the actual recipe is like somewhat similar to ketchup. That's funny. Ketchup has actually a deceptive amount of spice in it.

I know now it's all homogenized, Heinz, whatever. But I grew up eating at my buddy Deep's house, who's Gujarati, and his mom would always make what they called idra, but I think a lot of the rest of South Asia calls it dokli. Okay, never heard of it. It's just like a steamed, kind of sour, fermented rice cake. It's similar to idli. Oh my god. It's similar to idli.

I love idli. It's so good. I was raised on idli too. And, you know, like you said, a lot of immigrants, especially kids, want to assimilate and ketchup is like the assimilation food. That's right. And then me growing up like without any sort of food culture to speak of, I always just wanted to expound. And so I would eat the idra with, you know, green chutney and Deep's mom would stare on and approve. And then Deep would dip it in ketchup as she'd shake her head.

Cute. And it's this kind of very simplistic dichotomy that you see a lot, which is very funny. And again, we all sort of use food as a tool to communicate cultural meaning in a lot of ways. Sure. But at the end of the day, ketchup tastes good, man. Ketchup tastes good. It's a chutney. Hi, Josh.

Hi, Nicole. I had a tuna sandwich today on a croissant. Ketchup tastes good man Ketchup tastes good Hi Josh, hi Nicole I had a tuna sandwich today on a croissant And I just barely realized that instead of putting Potato chips on it You should try putting goldfish snack track Oh frick Goldfish snack Was that a child?

I believe that was a child I love kids so much I'm gonna do. I'm going to do this. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. We're doing it. Well, we're doing it, but I'm saying they actually had a very astute observation here. What was that?

And I'll tell you why. Croissant? Well, the croissant one, I love me a croissant sandwich. One of my favorite things is a curried chicken salad on a croissant from Cinnamon Productions. Very South African of you. Isn't it? Oh, God. Curried chicken salad. Y'all love curried chicken salad. a croissant from Cinnamon Productions. That's a very South African review. Isn't it? Oh, God. Curried chicken salad.

Y'all love curried chicken salad. Boy, do they. A very mild curry. But anyway, that's my own duties to say. If you use a croissant instead of bread for something like a tuna sandwich, which already has fat in it, then you're adding deep fried potato chips to it. You're getting sort of fat at every layer. So you're getting the greasiness of the croissant, which is good, and the creaminess, you know.

Also, it's probably a croissant from like Costco. It's not like a flaky like situation. Yeah. Whereas if you were using a bread that doesn't have much fat in it, that would work. So I love what you did. You took a baked chip, something that also cheese and fish. Goldfish, cracker, you know, it's a good combo. You took something that already has fat in it and then used a baked cracker

instead of a fried chip. That's sort of going to give you a little bit of that reprieve, that little starchiness to cut that fat. That is a very smart decision. You were going to be a great chef. I'm doing it. That sounds really good. I can't believe I've never done that before. Why have we never done that before? I want that sandwich right now. Croissant, tuna, goldfish. I haven't made a sandwich on a croissant in so long. Me either. The reason why is because I actually had one in culinary school,

and it was like a tuna croissant sandwich, and then I found a long, thick, black hair in it. Is it yours? No. You sure? It was not. Did you match it? It was not.

Like when a dog bites somebody, you got to hold his teeth up to the bite marks? No, no, no. We're talking It was not. Did it match it? It was not. When a dog bites somebody, you got to hold his teeth up to the bite marks? No, no, no. We're talking about yay long. Oh. Black. No, like. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Oof. So I haven't had a croissant sandwich in like 10 years. How are they eliminating the dough? What were they using? God knows. Well.

What are the chances of getting to, well, that's our other export from Chilistan. What? Oh, got it, got it, got's our other export from Chilistan. What? Oh, got it, got it, got it, got it. Got it, got it, got it, got it. Well, that's a greener. You sounded a lot like Kazakhstan, man. You sounded a lot like Kazakhstan. No, Chilistan, dude. Chilistan.

Sorry, I always get them mixed up. Our national slogan is just, SAC. SAC, dude. I wish you all the best in your endeavors in Chilistan. SAC, SAC, SAC, dude. I wish you all the best in your endeavors in Chilistan. SAC, SAC, SAC, dude. You should come visit, man.

I really don't want to. What's your capital city? What's your capital city? What? What's your capital city? Oh, it's actually, it's actually DGaffisburg. It's, yeah.

Oh, I see. No, I know. A lot of complicated political history there. No way. I know. It's really crazy. I think my cousin went to bruh

bruh tech or oh no not college no no no the city of bruh that's a university it's like Uppsala

it's like there's a lot of oh it's a big education system I didn't know that yeah mostly parties oh that makes sense why you went there a lot of drinking

yeah our official beer is actually just Coors Light still we still yeah we don't brew our own you don't brew your own. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They did it better.

Makes sense whenever you told all the, you know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. On that note, thank you so much. Thank you so much. If this is the podcast that gets us canceled, I've enjoyed every moment doing this, Josh.

Oh, we're begging for it. Someone do it so we can rest. On that note, thank you for listening to A Hot Dog is a Sandwich. We got new audio-only episodes every Wednesday and a video version here on YouTube every Sunday. If you want to be featured on Opinions or like Casseroles, please call us and leave a message at 833-DOGPOD1. And for more Mythical Kitchen, check out our other videos where we launch new episodes every week. See you all next time. Bye.

India, I believe, is called Hindustan at some point. Yeah. Makes sense. You know, a lot of stans. Stan means state. Yes. That's the joke.

Like, Chilistan means like a chill state. Whereas the current stans, they're just all sort of in Central Asia. Isn't it like languages? Like Tajikistan? Is the language Tajik?

A lot of Tajikistani Jews. Are there? Yeah, bring it back, the Jews. They're called Bukharians,ik. What are Tajikistani Jews? Are there? Yeah, bringing it back to Jews. They're called Bukharians, right? Yeah, the Bukhari. Mountain Bukharian Jews. I went on a date with a Bukharian Jew. Yeah?

Hot? He was a doctor. Ooh. He ghosted me. Look at me now! Declan? Was that his name?