A Problem Squared - 089 = Venomous Snakes and Doggy Legs

Episode Date: July 15, 2024

On this episode... 🐍If you pooled up all the snake venom in the world would it be enough to kill all the non-immune mammals? 👢Do dogs have 2 arms? Or do we have 4 legs? 📜And we open the business briefcase.  If you want to know more about lizard sampling, do that here: ‘Hierarchical distance sampling to estimate population sizes of common lizards across a desert ecoregion’: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ece3.4780 There’s a great video by Technology Connections to turn signals and specifically syncing them up, you can find that here: https://youtu.be/2z5A-COlDPk?si=SWSE_FX3fuyLH1X0 You can find the rude praying hands here: https://www.reddit.com/r/teams/comments/xvpefh/can_we_please_talk_about_the_praying_emoji_on/ https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/office/hand-gestures-in-microsoft-teams-free-ff2354cd-17fa-44fc-80c9-3d88c577a1ad As always, send your problems and solutions to our website: www.aproblemsquared.com. And, if you want more from A Problem Squared, you can also find us on Twitter, Instagram, Discord and on Patreon.

Hello and welcome to A Problem Squared, the problem-solving podcast which is a bit like a dog, in that it's great. Did you look around the room and see a dog? No, no, not true. It's just I've seen several dogs today. Several dogs, right. They're on my brain. Your host, I'm Matt Parker, comedian, mathematician, and author, who is like the dog's tail.

Wow. In that he is... I oscillate. Yep. He's always moving. Always moving. When he's happy. And it's...

You get the vibe of someone who's just shown up without realising they're doing the opening lecture at a conference. And someone gives you a bunch of cue cards out of order and shoves you onto the stage. Yeah, do you realise you've just described one of my ongoing stress dreams? Oh, really? Oh, sorry. Which is that I show up to do like a festival that I forgot that I have a show booked and I haven't written a show.

I definitely have stress dreams where you've got to do a gig or a show and you haven't prepared it. Yeah. Anyway, Matt Parker is a part of a dog that's good. Yeah. That's me. Yeah. And I am also part of a dog for a funnier reason. I'm Beck Hill.

It's going to be a real meta episode. Normally I introduce myself as Beck Hill, comedian and writer. And I'm not sure I can do that. I think we're going to have to put a pause on writer. Wait. There we go. There's a dog pun. Yeah.

You didn't mean that, did you? I pointed it out. And I was like, oh, good. I'll take it. Yeah. I's a dog pun. Yeah. You didn't mean that, did you? I did not, no. I pointed it out. And I was like, oh, good. I'll take it. Yeah. I'll run with it. Yep. I'm sorry that this is very labradored.

Oh, nice. Good work. Thank you. I told you I'd come through. You pulled out of that nosedive. Yep. Saved the podcast. Yeah.

On this episode. I work out just how dangerous snakes are. I'm going to look at whether dogs have arms or legs. Oh, yeah. That's why you're doing dogs. Yeah. That was another. I didn't want to give it away too early.

And we have any other Buckness. Nice. Hello, new listeners, if any. Yes. Hello. Welcome. Hope the intro didn't put you off. Feels pretty accurate, to be honest.

Yeah. And hello, Matt. Oh, yeah. How you doing off. Feels pretty accurate, to be honest. Yeah. And hello, Matt. Oh, yeah. How you doing? I'm great. I've had an ice cream. This is a post-ice cream show. Yeah.

So what's going to happen is we're going to go great for the first half of the show, and then the second half we'll be notably tired. It's like, I mean, two episodes ago we ate a lot of cake and then did an episode and it was a mess. Yeah. And now we've just eaten a bunch of ice cream then did an episode and it was a mess. Yeah. And now we've just eaten a bunch of ice cream. Yeah. And we're going to do an episode.

Yeah. When will we learn? It's going to be a mess. Yeah. I would like to point out before we start, my voice sounds a bit rough. Hey. Another dog joke. Uh-huh.

I just finished recording the audio book for Love Triangle. Ah. Yeah. finished recording the audio book for love triangle ah yeah so i had three days locked in a small room reading my own words out to myself okay so this is the start of a text-based relevant to their the nearest exit was north yep so i had to sit there and just read the book which is not strictly true i stood there and read the book. Oh, you're a stander? I'm a stander because I'm not a professional audio book reading person, but I have spent a lot of time standing on a stage talking into a microphone. So I'm like, I'm just going to reuse

that skillset to do this. And they were great. They ran around, they found like a music stand from somewhere. They cobbled this together. I think something was gaffer taped on and they did it. They arranged, they got the mic at the right spot and they got the thing up. Incredible. This was five years ago. I show up this time and apparently since I did it, like one other person has requested to stand. And now I'm back but now they've upgraded to a standing desk. Oh, nice. I was able to stand up and just read away. Yeah. It was a lot of fun. I do voiceover stuff and I preferred standing up for them just because then there's more

space for my lungs. Yeah. Because then you're like emoting more with your voice in voiceover. I mean, it gets a little tiresome by the end of the third day. I'm like, why did I choose to stand? But I think it's a much better performance. I did film bits of it. It's on my second channel on youtube if people

want to see the tiny room i was put in yeah or get a chunk of the book for free yeah i did ask penguin how much we're allowed to put in the video i didn't just put up a long section of it i put up little chunks where interesting thing happened yeah because a lot of it is working out how to turn a book about mathematics which has a bunch of diagrams and pictures, into an audio book. And this time they emailed me in advance and said, hey, do you want to come in and we can go through and work out how we're going to do all the different bits of the book. And I, slightly, a little bit cheeky, was like, nah.

How about we just work it out as we go? Yeah. And that's what we did. It's fine. You just work it out as you go? Yep. And that's what we did. It's fine. You just work it out as you go. Yeah. I read the text. I imagine how I'd explain that on stage if I didn't have any slides and we're away.

So you can watch me live work out how to rephrase things to work in audio form. Oh, yeah, that's great. This is almost as exciting as my news. It's your news. Good thing I'm sitting down. Yeah. Which is, as I've mentioned many times, I do not know how to drive. I never learned.

Yep. However, I've just had my provisional license approved, which means that soon I will be able to do my... Provisional. What does that mean? It means I'm allowed to do the written theory test. And if I pass that, I'm allowed to start doing lessons. Oh, wow.

Wait. So, hang on. Hang on. You got the license to be able to start doing lessons. Oh, wow. Wait, so hang on, hang on. You got the license to be able to do the test. Yes. To let you then learn how to get your license. And test to get the license. This is great.

Great. I got my license like decades ago in Perth. And it's just like you go down the police station, they're like, all right, jump in the car. No, you're kidding. Around the corner. No, no, no. I was like i was

like really because no no i didn't have to do a provisional license to do the theory test i just had to go and do the theory test to get my learner's permit yeah i think it's this so i think this is the same as a learner's permit basically but it's the other way around because i did get a learner's permit when i was 16 got it i did the theory test yep past got a learner's permit when I was 16. Got it. I did the theory test, passed, got a learner's permit, never learnt. Right. I believe this should be on the test. I'm pretty sure this is the same. It's just the other way around.

It's just so they've got my details on file for when I do the test. God. So then they can just. What I don't understand is what you had to do to get it because it can't be a test because you've got the permit now to do the test. So do you just have to apply and say, I want to learn how to drive one day? It's essentially applying for an ID card.

Oh. So you're giving them all your identification details. Oh, you're doing the ID step first. And then you send them the photo. I was like, I can take this at home. I've got the equipment. ID aspect done. And then backfill in the driver's-ness of the license.

And I'm going to do one of the extensive courses. Extensive courses? Intensive. That's what I meant. But they're both, in a sense. Because after doing the last episode and realizing just how much pollution comes from tires, I was like, I'm missing out. I want to add to that.

I want to generate some tyre dust. Yeah. Well, that's very funny that you get the null licence first then you have to fill in the driving later on. I find that very entertaining. Yeah. It's licence zero. Yeah.

Our first problem comes from Eli. They wrote into the problem posing page, which is problemsquared.com. They chose problem in the dropdown and they said, I'm from Indiana in the United States and we only have one venomous snake, the rattlesnake, and I've never seen one in the wild. I've never been to Australia, but I heard they have giant venomous snakes that will chase and kill you. What are your guys' experience with snakes in Australia?

I'd like to go someday, but the snakes scare me. Also, if you pulled up all the snake venom in the world, would it be enough to kill all the non-immune animals? I love that little addition of like a prop. They've written the actual question they have and then gone, oh, I've got to sweeten the deal. Yeah, I've got to make this appeal to Matt. A little something to hook Matt's attention. Yeah, I've got to make this appeal to Matt. I've got to add a little something to hook Matt's attention.

Yeah, this is the sort of thing I would have gone for and then probably been put off by the last sentence. And I think it's the reverse for you. Yeah, they're trying to filter us. Snakes in Australia. Yes. Did I mention when I was recording from Texas I saw a rattlesnake? Is that what prompted this or was this unrelated?

Oh, I don't know. I was cycling in Texas on a cycle path, so not on a road. And the cycle path kind of went through quite a bushlandy kind of scrubby area, I would describe it in Aussie terms. I came around the corner, there was a snake right in the middle of the path. And so I just gently was like oh, a snake and just made sure I cycled around the snake. And the naturalist was like, was that a rattlesnake? I turn around, I come a snake, and just made sure I cycled around the snake. Yeah. And the naturalist was like, was that a rattlesnake? I turn around, I come back, and the snake is still there, and the snake seems unbothered by my presence.

Okay. I stay a long way back because I'm like, I don't want to anger this snake. Proper, like, rattlesnake with a diamond pattern and the rattly bit. I was like, that's amazing. Carrying with my life. That, I mean, I'm not used to snakes hanging around. Like, in Australiaia i think the snake risk is overstated but it's probably still more than many people are used to i've never been

chased by a snake never been chased by a snake i've seen snakes and they usually tend to be slithering amongst brush off a path yeah because they don't want to get trampled or anything so they stay away from footfall well ellie we can rule out one thing immediately the snakes do not chase you well yeah certainly not in our experience not that we're used to i don't think there are any snakes in Australia that chase you i could be wrong i got chased by goanna once but that's very different they can be quite aggressive and i think i'd I was in tall grass and I stepped over, like, because goannas have, like, dens.

Oh, you said goanna. This goanna went, and, like, jumped out and tried to bite me because obviously I must have had eggs or something in there. And I was like, and then I ran and it chased me, like, maybe for a couple of meters before it went back to its eggs. That's very funny. It was very terrifying. I was probably about 14, 13.

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. They're not small lizards. But that's definitely more a lizard thing. Like, growing up, we were taught if you're walking somewhere where there might be snakes, just make sure you stomp a bit. Yeah. Because the snake will feel the vibrations, hear you coming,

and then just get out of the way. You don't want to get stood on. Yeah. I did have a chat to my brother who lives in Perth, Western Australia, and the house he's in, he's been there for maybe four or five years now, and he's had snakes in the yard. It stood on. Yeah. I did have a chat to my brother who lives in Perth, Western Australia. And the house he's in, he's been there for maybe four or five years now. And he's had snakes in the yard. Snakes in the yard?

Snakes in the yard. It just occurred to me this is the one problem where I haven't written any terrible Python code. Hey. How embarrassing. Oh, no. So I gave Steve a call to say, hey, you've had snakes in your yard. And just to talk through what the deal is with actually finding snakes in Australia and dealing with them. So, he's lived there for four or five years, had two snakes, had to get them removed. And one thought it was a snake, wasn't

a snake incident, where they spotted a king skink, which looks a lot like a snake that has got tiny legs. Yeah. And twice he called out the person listed in his phone as Marcus Snake. Marcus. Yeah. The snake guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He knows other Marcuses. Either that or Marcus is good for Marcus.

Yes. Marcus Snake. What a nickname. It comes out. Great. Comes out. Finds the snake., removes the snake. Brings like robot arm things.

Yes. A grabber on a stick, grabs the snake, puts it in a bag, leaves with the snake and about 100 bucks. I love that there's like a rough amount. Yeah, it's like 80 to 100 bucks. I don't know if it depends how hard it is to catch the snake or what snake. What's funny as well is I think some people imagine like official person. They've got a proper get up. Yep. Or they've done some sort of training.

Yeah. And studied zoology. Exactly. Yeah. There are snakeologists. Quite often it's someone who just isn't scared to pick up snakes. Yes. And went, oh, I can charge for this. Quite often it's someone who just isn't scared to pick up snakes. Yes, yes. And went, oh, I can charge for this.

It's a bit like, you know, the magic trick where people eat a light bulb and the trick is you just eat the light bulb. You just eat the light bulb, yeah. So the trick to being a snake remover is just grabbing the snake. Remove the snake. Get the snake and then leave with it. Steve did once use the council because for free you can contact the council and they'll take care of the snake and he said they were they were the real bozos with no

no training or anything like he rang him at 11 o'clock in the morning because the council gave him the number he's like i think i woke them up they just come around and they just doofus around a while and get the snake there were no markers snake, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. So, Steve decided that snake removal, he'll pay for the professional to come and do that properly. Then Steve snake proofed the backyard. He then went around and tried to seal up all the points where a snake can get in.

Now, if he'd done this properly, and as a scientist, he should understand this. He should have just changed one variable at a time. Yeah. But he blocked up all the holes and got a dog at the same time. Okay. And we don't know, there's been no snakes since then. And we don't know if that's because the dog stops the snakes. Uh-huh. Or blocking the holes up. I would say holes. Probably. Yeah. They've got chickens which attract snakes because there's eggs yes and the chickens attract some like rats and that attracts

snakes so they got a lot of snake attractors going on but yeah between the whole blocking up and the dog no snakes sadly they no longer get blue tongue lizards are a cool lizard. They get in the same way. So you can stop your snakes, but you also lose your blue-tongued lizards from coming in. That's the most Australian thing. That's the biggest problem with that situation. Well, not to mosey in on your problem. Oh, yeah, go for it.

I've actually done a fair bit of research into this area because I have a bit of material that I'm working on. Oh. Which at some point someone will see me do a nicely done joke. Oh, yeah. About this. Because what I find funny is people from America. Yep.

Who are scared of coming to Australia. Yeah. Because of dangerous things. Snakes, spiders, etc. Yeah. So do you want to know how many people were killed in Australia by snakes between 2000 and 2017? Okay, so 17 years. Yep. Snake deaths. I want to say 20?

Not far off. 35. Oh, okay. 35 in 17 years. To a year. To a year, yeah. Great. Yeah, now, almost three quarters of the 35 victims were male. Right. 20% of them were bitten while trying to pick up or kill a snake. I came across the same thing about how many deaths were from people trying to catch a snake. Yeah. And I forget the phrasing.

There's this real snide, which arguably could have been avoided. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leave the snakeasing. There's this real snide, which arguably could have been avoided. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leave the snake alone. Yeah. This is one of my other favorite facts. Just while we're on the subject. Do you want to know how many people in Australia have died from spider bites?

Right. In the last year? Zero. Correct. Hey. Do you know how many people have died from spider bites in the last 10 years? Two Zero

Zero, still zero There have been zero deaths from spider bites since 1979 That's great In Australia because of anti-venom Yeah, when I was looking into the snake stuff There's a lot of things saying Australia's got like the best antivenom in the world, really, for snake bites. And they're the only country that have good snake venom detection kits.

So it's been shown that people identifying what snake bit them, people are terrible at doing that. They don't memorize the snake in their moment of panic so we're the only country like that stick hurt yeah you draw what bit you yep yeah a sausage call marcus marcus sausage so we have comes along with a picker exactly comes along with like one of those barbecue prong things. And a single slice of white bread. You've got to grab it from behind the neck.

Oh, no, it bit me. It's just ketchup. It's just tomato sauce. So we're the only country that has venom detection kits that would tell you what snake it was based on residual venom. That's very clever. At the time. Very, very clever. Yeah.

And another article I was reading made the very good point that the reason why a lot of people survive snake bites in Australia, like Australia's got a very high survival rate. Yeah. You compare it to other countries. So this matches what you were saying the average number of deaths in australia from snake bites is two or three a year in south africa they average 476 snake bite deaths per year wow and there's obviously several reasons for that

but access to medical sure is a big one yeah Yeah, that makes sense. And in Australia, snake bites are covered by Medicare. So, antivenom, super expensive. Aussie, Aussie, Aussie. Yeah, ow, ow, ow. So, it costs Medicare, like, the cost for a single not dying from a snake bite, antivenom and everything is about $6,000 Australian dollars. Oh, my gosh. And that's just covered. Like, you show up and you're like, I've been bitten by a snake.

They're like, no worries, mate. Ba-da-boom, ba-da-bing. Should be right. Yeah, we'll get Marcus on the line. Yeah. You beauty. You beauty. Off you go.

Yeah. So, like a lot of things, it comes down to it's not fair. It depends where you get bit and depends what you can afford and depends what support structures there are where you live. If you're going to get bitten by a venomous snake or spider australia is a pretty good place um for that to happen yeah and eli if you want a different animal to be terrified of do you want to know what animal caused the most deaths in australia between 2000 2013 is it people tripping over a wombat like onto a sharp stick or something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know how it happens. They land on a snake. They land on a snake. You choke on a spider. Yeah, yeah. What is the animal that causes the most deaths in Australia? So between 2000 and 2013, 74 people were killed by horses.

Horses? Mm-hmm. Because they fall off them, they get trampled. You get kicked by a horse, you get were killed by horses. Horses? Mm-hmm. Because they fall off them, they get trampled. You get kicked by a horse, you get run over by a horse. Yeah. That's the most dangerous animal in Australia is a horse. You know where horses evolved? No.

I think America. Right. So, Americans, have a good hard look at your own backyard before you get upset about arsenics. Yeah, exactly. And- Who's solving this problem? So anyway, that's our experience. Now onto the maths part. If you put up all the snake venom in the world,

would it be enough to kill all the non-immune animals? Are any animals naturally immune to snake venom? I don't know. There are some wood rats that are immune to. I'll subtract them from the equation. There are some wood rats that are immune to... I'll subtract them from the equation. So, I found a figure for 130 billion wild mammals. There are 8 billion humans.

I don't know if that 130 billion included, like, livestock. I don't know how, like, wild their figure was. But there's about a billion cows. There's about a billion pigs. There's about a billion at most. You know what I love? Most animals. whales includes whales can you imagine how many snakes that snake would need to be they're real they're a proper snake and they're super venomous so i'll turn back okay how many how many mammals have to be killed by snakes and that's not a bad

estimate apparently so we'll go with that The issue becomes how many snakes are there? Great question. I looked up venomous snakes. There's 151 venomous snakes in Australia. Species. Yes. Not just individuals. By cabbage, yeah.

Figures vary for worldwide. I've seen 600 are mentioned in a few places. I've seen 725. Okay. So, I'm going to go, let say 725 more snakes. Yeah, up a limit. Yeah. That species, though, nowhere will give you a snake population size. Yeah, I suppose it's a lot to track. They

are real hard to find. They tend to live places humans don't. A lot of the time you think they're sticks. Like sticks. I, and listeners, please, if anyone can find population sizes for snakes, I couldn't find anything. It's very hard to get them to do the census. Hey, well done. Thank you. So, I then was like, well, can I do this the other way around?

And then I thought, thought well how many snakes would we need okay yeah and then we'll work backwards and see if it's plausible yeah the question now becomes how much venom does one snake have and how many mammals can it kill yeah and it varies so some snakes because they could bite several yes so like an inland taipan it's got enough venom to kill 100 humans, whereas other snakes barely have enough for one. So it varies between one and 100. I was like, oh, that's not very helpful because different snakes

have different volumes of venom and they have different levels of toxicity in their venom. And it's hard to get exact numbers on this. And there's a huge variation in how much venom a snake has, even within the same species. So I kind of ballparked it like 10 people per snake. And by 10 people, I mean like 10 mammals on average, just to try and get a ballpark figure. But for that, for the 725 different venomous species, there would need to be 19 million of each type.

Oh my gosh. I think that's too much. Yeah, that's a lot. But then I did find a survey in America of common lizards. Okay. Across the desert ecoregion. And I'm like, are lizard populations similar to snake populations? It's a wild guess.

Yeah. There are about 4,000 different species of snakes all in including non-venomous there's about 7 000 species of lizards okay so almost double but then that won't necessarily make a difference to the number of individuals per species yeah yeah so it's not like i can just go from one to the other. And this survey basically did a straight line transect, I think it's called, where you commit to walking in a certain direction. So, you're not swayed by trying to find lizards. You pick a random direction, you go along and you count the number of lizards and you can extrapolate up. If I saw that many in

this random patch for the total total area there must be this many so the three most common lizards between them they estimate there are 82 million which is a lot that is a lot that's 27 million per species and we only need 19 million on average for the snakes but they're the three most common yeah so i feel like with the quite generous 10 deaths per snake yeah capacity for yeah i feel like that's a lot i feel like the true numbers will be less than that looking at the i said like the ones i read up on i think i'm being generous so 19 million individuals per species is probably an underestimate for what we would need yeah and and let me just clarify so when you're saying like 10 people it's as you say like sometimes it'll say

it's enough venom to kill this many people all the way so it's as if if you extrapolated that venom and then were to give a dose to each human enough to kill. You'd have to extract the venom and then very neatly divide it up so everyone gets their allotted amount to kill them. Yes. So I was kind of hoping that these numbers would be on the other side of each other. I was hoping that even the most generous, most common lizard would still be less than the amount we would need for snakes

there's a slight overlap but they're basically the same number as far as our estimating is concerned and you're being very generous i'm being very generous i would i personally i'd be like there's twice as many lizards as there are snakes so yeah exactly yeah so i think that actually there are not enough snakes to do that. But it's not one where sometimes I put numbers on it and show it absolutely can't be done. Like can one person climb every mountain? Yes. And you can't. So you can ignore all the other details because you can just show it's not possible like that.

With the information we have, I cannot absolutely clear cut say no. Because there's just a fuzzy, tiny, tiny bit of plausibility. But it's so unlikely. And I think you'd have to make such generous assumptions to show that, that I'm prepared to say no. You can have to find something else to kill all mammals. All the venomous snakes in the world aren't going to do it. And also, if you were to take all the venom from all the snakes, what sort of Bond villain are you?

Wow. You'd have a lot of unprotected snakes. Marcus! No one thinks of the snakes. Marcus would have an easy job. Just be grabbing them five at a time. Five at a time, Marcus, is what they call them. Look, I think between us, we have well and truly answered that.

Oh, yeah. That problem. So, Eli, if you want to argue us. Oh, the final decision is the problem poser. Yeah. Come get us, Eli. We're protected by snakes. Next problem is a problem that Tim has.

And Tim's problem is, do dogs have two arms and two legs or do people actually have four legs tim does elaborate seeing as mammals are built the same roughly speaking bipedal species are massively outnumbered by quadrupeds so we are the freaks the standing up mammals so given we're outvoted by the rest of the mammals, should we actually, instead of using the word arms, should we call them legs that we use for not walking? So Tim's worried that as a species we've named something without giving enough thought to how the vast majority of animals actually use it. And they do, and I don't want to pollute

the purity of this discussion and problem-solving enterprise. But whatever we end up saying, we're going to be picking a side. Because Tim says that their wife believes dogs have arms. Whereas Tim thinks we all have four legs. Well, first of all, what I love is it's not my wife believed like my wife believes dogs have arms that you could then go like my wife thinks dogs have arms yeah whereas i think they don't and that doesn't take away from whether we have arms or not but i love that tim has gone well if dogs don't have arms then we have four legs i do love the fact yeah it's it's it's like there's a single

argument is very funny tim has bolted several extrapolations onto it and made the more core principles of the argument. Yeah, and I think the other reason I laugh is because this is how my brain works. And I am laughing because I've definitely been Tim in other situations where I've been like, well, if this means this, then this is true. It's like

arguing is tomato a fruit or is basil the best seasoning for a vegetable oh no i think it's closer to being like well if tomato is a fruit then meat is a is a type of cheese is a type of salad yeah yeah yeah it's yeah yeah not quite how it works i love it though tim i love you is a type of cheese. It's a type of salad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not quite how it works. I love it though, Tim. I love you. Thank you for sending this in. It's a valid extension because if you start arguing,

do dogs have arms or legs? You could then argue, do humans have arms or legs? Like that's okay. I get it. But I think what Tim's trying to say is he wants one policy for all mammals. Yeah.

Otherwise he's going to kill them all. And I can provide you with enough snakes. So I did a bit of digging into this and found out there has been some explanations, mainly to help answer the age-old problem of how would a dog wear trousers? Great. Good point. Or pants if you're from america or australia yep so for those unfamiliar it's a picture of a dog with trousers over the hind legs

and then there's a picture of the dog with trousers that cover up the like we're going to say legs for the sake of it four legs and then the waistband is just like under the tail to like yeah exactly okay yeah yeah um it's like i love the um where would a giraffe wear a tie yeah right yeah the bottom yeah the bottom of the top yeah i do you know what i think just a very thick tie oh all the way down i would know like a really thick tie a really thick tie yeah because then you could wrap it around the entire neck. No, no, you still tie it like a tie. Oh, okay. It was real thick.

Real thick. Yeah, that's our answer. You're solving problems left, right and center. See, that's why we have a podcast. So no one can stop us, Matt. Right. No one's come for us. How would a hippo roller skate?

Well, I don't know if you've seen a little documentary called Fantasia, but... So, I think they're ice skating in that one. So, actually, I did find myself seesawing on this. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Interesting. So, to give Tim some credit... Yep.

It is... I feel like we came out of the gates pretty tim bashing yeah to give tim credit that it is all four of our legs we're gonna walk it back a bit there is it does come down to semantics and like just how you interpret stuff so let's look at this let's look at argument for dogs have legs and arms yes okay so dogs hind legs, dogs' hind legs and their, I'm going to refer to as front legs, are different. Dogs' front legs have an elbow. What you would genuinely refer to as an elbow. Yes.

And they have a wrist. Yep. Whereas their back legs have a knee. Clearly have a knee. Called a stifle. Yep. And they have an ankle. Clearly have a knee. Called a stifle. Yep. And they have an ankle. It's called a hock.

Their back legs are different to the front legs. And that is comparable somewhat. I mean, they're still very different from human arms and legs. But you could say we've got our arms are different to our legs. Also, dogs' front legs can grasp things. No. Don't tell the dog. She'll start opening doors.

But they can. They can grasp stuff with their paws. You would have seen her holding a toy or a bone and she'd choose it. When she's chewing that bone earlier, she will hold it between her front paws. Yeah. She doesn't have opposable thumbs. It's hard. But she won't do that with her back legs. Correct. She will do it with her front paws. Yeah. She doesn't have opposable thumbs. It's hard, but she won't do that with her back legs. Correct.

She will do it with her front legs. They can use them for digging. I mean, obviously, the back legs help, but they mainly use the front paws for doing stuff. Doing things. In the same way that we would use our hands. So there is an argument, Tim, for your wife to say that, yes, because legs are different, you could call the front legs arms.

Yeah. The argument to say that they're not arms for you, Tim, is that it depends on what you classify as arms. So bipedal animals would have evolved to be upright. We would have originally used our arms when walking. Yeah. In the same way that you see primate views them. Like primates are an interesting thing in between because you'll see them using them to help move around

but also using them. And we would call them arms on a primate. We wouldn't say their front legs. So that is another argument for your wife there but with in a lot of cases we refer to arms when it comes to animals or beings that evolved to no longer walk on their arms right it's arm means not walking on it and that's why there's differences between what our arms are like and what a dog's arms are like. Because we haven't, we've evolved to use our arms for different things, not walking. But we have basically the same bone structure. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, but just different bones of different sizes or our thumbs are more opposable. Exactly. So there are arguments on either side. I would say personally researching this, I'm coming down to team dogs have arms. And my reason for that is because if a person no longer had legs and was using their arms to help them move around, you would say they were walking on their arms or walking on their hands. Yep. But you wouldn't call their arms legs.

No. Now that they're moving around on them. I would say dogs have arms because that will half my expenditure on dog shoes. Yeah, but double your expenditure on – actually, no, that doesn't work. You can't double zero. No, I'd spend infinitely more on dog gloves. Yeah, but double your expenditure on... Actually, no, that doesn't work. You can't double zero. No, I have to spend infinitely more on dog gloves. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

And exactly the same on dog hats. Dude, you've got to stop. It's becoming a habit. I can quit anytime I want. Meanwhile, you've got like this dealer Who's like hey hey buddy He's got like a big trench coat He opens it up with these dog hats inside Oh can I get a pair of those dog sunglasses as well please

I say this That a friend of mine was in Japan recently And went to a Like a specific shop I think it was in Tokyo That sold like loads of different dog accessories. But all the dog accessories. I wish.

It was one of my, like, this guy has a great dog. And we got very lucky with the lucky dog dip. She hates wearing things. And I had such visions of dressing the dog up in all manner of ridiculous outfits. You were going to give her her own YouTube channel. Yeah, absolutely. You had so many plans. So many plans. And I had such visions of dressing the dog up in all manner of ridiculous outfits. You were going to give her her own YouTube channel. Yeah, absolutely. You had so many plans.

So many plans. And I laughed. You laughed. Like God does when people make plans. As you will not wear anything. No. And what is God if not dog backwards? Dog backwards.

Exactly. God wears clothes. You don't know that. Imagine if you die and you meet God and they're wearing a hat and nothing else. That's it. I got a hat guy. And my phone is Marcus Hats. So I'm Team Arms for the reasons i stated your team arms team arms for the ridiculous reasons

i stated however if tim wants another argument birds wings would have been legs that evolved into essentially their arms because they are bipedal but they're the two front when you think of like dinosaurs and stuff also bird wings were were arms that evolved into wings then again we call them wings and not legs so that's true my semi-unrelated fact that i'm sure i brought up before is that whales still have vestigial leg bones like the legs are still in there huh they just they just don't protrude his legs anymore yeah i guess because uh maybe it reaches a point where it's like, well, evolutionary, it's not getting in the way.

There's no gain for not growing the bones. I guess there's not enough pressure of survival gain from not bothering to grow those bones. There's obviously enough gain to not have protruding legs because you're swimming around. Yeah, and also you don't want to risk snakes biting you. Exactly, snakes love biting them. As they're walking around in the bush.

And people keep trying to make you wear trousers. How would a whale wear trousers? Internally, apparently. That's relentless. The ones... The ones... Once your legs are internal, it's a trouser-free life. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's my answer. I think dogs have arms, and therefore I think they would wear trousers on their hind legs. This is a tough one, Beck, because normally we'd go back to the problem poser to sign off on a ding. I wouldn't mind also hearing from Tim's wife. They can have a chat, and they can come back to us with a consensus.

Imagine if we just get a bill for divorce papers. No, no, no. I think they can work this out. If you're still married by the time. If they're a couple having a, this is what they have to resort to to have an argument. Yeah, that's true. I'm sure they're doing fine. Yeah.

I would love them to listen to your arguments, factor in mine as well, and then report back to us. I mean, both of our arguments are on Tim's wife's side. Well, then report back to us. Did it tip the scales or is Tim still unconvinced? Or has Tim found new evidence? That's true. Very happy for Tim to come back and correct us with an argument.

Also, Tim, I just want you to write in and let us know that you're okay after we were pretty savage on you. You know, I do feel a little bad about that now. Also, Tim, I just want you to write in and let us know that you're okay after we were pretty savage on you. You know, I do feel a little bad about that now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just let us know you're all right. We're not making fun of you, Tim. We're making fun of Tim's logic.

Okay. I think Tim has just written us a very funny problem and Tim's leaning into the hilarity and we just tear up a new one. Like we assume it was all dead earnest. The real venom was us. We were the real venom the whole time. What's the deadliest animal from Australia? Beck and Matt.

And now to what you referred to as earlier as any other barkness or arms or barkness. Arms or barkness. Arms or business. Any other business. So. Joseph. Mm-hmm. Has a comment on episode 084 where I talked about why if you look at turn signals on multiple cars, they never seem to line up.

Yes. And I basically explained why it's not possible to synchronize turn signals. They pointed out there's a YouTube video by Technology Connections, which is a great channel. It is. I mean, I hadn't seen this video, but I do watch a lot of the videos on Technology Connections. They are very good. If you like old and semi-recent tech explained in a very nice way and occasionally pulled apart, great channel.

They have a video called Why It's Not Possible to Synchronize Turn Signals, open brackets, but also absolutely is closed brackets, which is a great video. And I probably could have just watched that, saved me a bunch of work. Yeah, yeah. So we will link to that in the show notes. Thank you for sending that in, Joseph. And a few other people mentioned it as well. I think Joseph was first, but a couple of people mentioned this video great video on the topic if you want to learn

more check it out i would also say that what this does is prove that hey we do our own research we do but but not well not well enough to have found a video with the actual title well you did your own sorry uh let me rephrase. We do our own working out. That's true. I looked at the problem and I leant back in my chair and thought about it. Yes. If it had been me who tackled the problem,

I would have found this video within seconds. See, that's true. Different school sets. We've just revealed the way that we do this show. I've got one other bit of any other biggleness. Oh, yeah, nice. Thank you. Do you remember a couple of episodes ago,

I showed you the prince of the darkness oh sorry not the prince of darkness the prince of siddler shape of what i showed you a shape in my book like a picture of it oh and i did not like it you didn't like it yeah look what's been behind you this whole time it's behind it's behind me isn't it i was just talking about it it's right there oh yeah you've got your 3D printed shapes. I've 3D printed it now. Look at that. Look at that beast.

I'm going to take it off the shelf. So some people may already know about this because I did a YouTube video about it, but I actually got a 3D printed version of the Siddler shape, and it's exactly what you would imagine it is. Beck's face is not one of enjoyment. No, no, I don't like this. She wants to pick it up with a long grabby stick and put it in a bag. Yeah, I do.

Yeah. You could suspend this in water and make the inverse icy poles. Oh, yeah. I don't know why that was how I thought you would use this. That's always your first thought. Can it icy pole? Yeah. Can it icy pole?

That's my new YouTube video. I'm so sorry, by the way, to everyone who I said I would yoit. I'm aware that we're- How's your yoit going? We're almost halfway through the year, and I've done one video that came out in January. Now, that's not the- You started strong. Yes.

The great thing about yoit is that yoit isn't over until the year's over. That's what they say. You can always, always get back on the yoit. I hate this shape so much. Just to get back to it. Can I have it back then? I don't want you to damage it or throw it away. You know what you do?

Just put it in the bin. Yeet it out the window. Yeet it. Year of yeet. I mean, that's your Any Other Business? That's it. I hated it. I had a great time.

We also got some any other business from tom who wrote in about the folded hands emoji oh yeah which we talked about in episode 086 is it a high five yeah so they pointed out that microsoft teams has an even more conflicting emoji oh no so that they are like the praying hands. Yeah. But it's almost like a little animated emoji. So the two hands sort of come together. Oh. Which, again, in itself is confusing because if you were to show a little animation of the hands coming together. It could still be folding or high-fiving.

Well, that feels a lot more like high-fiving. It does, yeah. That feels like a sort of two hands. But they do also point out that either it's the pinkies or the thumbs are aligned, which is the same problem we had before that suggests that it's more that they're praying rather than high-fiving. Yeah. However, the way that it looks has been pointed out by several people. I'm going to... I've not seen it.

Send you a link. Okay. We will put... Oh, what? We cannot share that. We can. No. Yeah.

That's not real. There's a 0% chance that's real. It's very innuendo-y. I refuse to believe. I mean, I'm on the Microsoft Teams website that shows you all the emojis. Yep. Has it got it? It doesn't have the animation, but it does have the image.

Yep. It's the movement that sells it, though. It's the movement that sells it. I wish to live in a world where that isn't real. No, I love it. Because someone out there was like, no. It's a joke. It's got to be a joke. I love it because someone out there was like, but got away with it. It's got to be a joke. I love whenever anyone gets away with sneaking something like that in.

Right, right. Yeah. I've heard the amount of – I work in children's television and the amount of people who worked on shows that – not our show actually, we were very well behaved because things were a lot tighter now, but people who worked on shows maybe when there were less checks being done, who would sneak rude things or swear words or whatever into the background. Like there is.

And do you know what? We've talked about things that have been recalled due to accidental issues. But at the same time, you're like, well, someone knew what it was. Yeah, someone must have realised. So, yeah, anyway, I got a real kick out of that. Thank you for pointing that out, Tom. It made my day and we'll link to what we can. This is revenge for the 3D print, isn't it?

Yep. Something for everyone in this podcast. As we get closer to wishing you poodle-oo, we're going to thank some folks for making this show possible. The reason we can keep this show going and ad-free and everything like that is because of our wonderful Patreon supporters. So as a way of showing our appreciation, we like to choose three of them at random to thank at the end of each episode

by mispronouncing their names. And in this episode, those patreon supporters are tomb yaspir brie and perkle chad coho erst cha d and i'm joined by my co-host oh yeah co-host co-host i mean that is their name thank you very much we appreciate you very much as we do with all of our patreon supporters and of course if you cannot support us on Patreon, we'll send the snakes. Do we have enough? We completely understand. But if you do want to support us anyhow, the best way you can do that is by just spreading the word. Please tell people that you enjoy us.

Spread it on social media. Tell your friends, family, loved ones. Send it on a self-addressed stamped envelope to someone else. Yeah. Write it on a newspaper and get a dog to stamped envelope to someone else. Yeah. Write it on a newspaper and get a dog to carry it to the owner. We can't thank you enough. If you do that, it means the world to us. And just the fact that you listen, that's enough as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Good on you. Good for you. Good listener. Oh, and you can leave a review. We're still trying to beat several other podcasts. Yeah, I haven't checked in for a while.

We kind of stopped asking, didn't we? We did. But we shouldn't have. So if you've not left us a review before but you enjoy the show and you want to find a way of supporting us, you can on Spotify. It's very easy. You can just click. There's a little rate thing on our, like, page on there,

and you can just click five stars, and that's it. That's all you have to do. Job done. That's all you have to do. If you're on other. Or however many stars you that's it. That's all you have to do. Job done. That's all you have to do. If you're on other- Or however many stars you think is appropriate. Yes, yeah. Apple Podcasts as well, we would love if you could give us five stars in a review if you're using that.

Or as many stars as you think is appropriate. I mean, yeah, sure. But five is best. Five is the appropriate number. Yes. Tim's going to give us one. Which is fair. I also want to thank my wonderful co-host matt parker that's me

matt barker matt barker well done man it was there all along you saved it for the end i'm bet kill and i want to thank our ever patient the leash to a leash nice to our dog leading us not astray the rather fetching lauren armstrong Armstrong Carter Woof woof Woof woof How'd you get bit? I was there to fuck spiders. Do not put that in the episode. No, don't.